Live On Air Debate With Roman Catholic Scott Windsor on Bible Interpretation

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And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line my name is James White and we have a live program for you today and specifically, we have a program on the subject of the interpretation of Scripture and Specifically, we'll be looking mainly at John chapter 6 as well as some other passages

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Let me give you a little bit of background in regards to what brought this particular subject up My special guest today, which we'll bring on in just a moment is

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Scott Windsor and Mr. Windsor runs a website, which I'm sure he'd be more than happy to tell you about and more than free to do so and also a mailing list off that website the axe mailing list and as well as a

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Chat room which like our chat room for those of you interested had to move this

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Past week due to the collapse of the Internet Due to wonderful fun folks who like to destroy free and nice ways of people chatting

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Anyways, that's another subject. We won't get into today Mr. Windsor and I have been talking about the subject of Roman Catholicism for a very long time and In fact,

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I think we began discussing these issues back in the days of BBS's and if you are too new to computers to know what that is a

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BBS is a bulletin board system and this was back before the days of the

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Internet and as a result you would write a message to someone and you'd put it on one computer and then eventually that computer would call another computer and send mail and pick up mail and and Eventually it would go through a network and get to the other guy's computer where he could read it and then he'd respond to it

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And it was very very funny how it all worked out going back and forth and so on and so forth

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So many moons ago probably a little bit farther back than we would like to actually admit we started talking about the subject of Roman Catholicism, mr.

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Windsor was a convert to the Roman Catholic faith and in point of fact It was those conversations that ended up Prompting the writing of Such books as the fatal flaw and answers to Catholic claims which are the works that I first published with the crown publications back in about 1990 and So that is a little bit of the background.

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What has happened recently is the to prompt this particular program was

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That mr. Windsor indicated that I have been proven wrong many many times in the past and specifically the issue that came up was

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John chapter 6 and The interpretation of that mr. Windsor indicated that my interpretation is in error

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And so I thought well, I think it would be edifying for everyone involved To hear a discussion on the subject of John chapter 6 specifically

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Verses 35 and following in regards to the issue of the sovereignty of God in salvation and specifically how it is that Roman Catholics and Protestants engage in the interpretation of Scripture and so that's what we would like to do today on the program and So let's go ahead and see let's first of all test and make sure that we've got everything working and see if Scott and I can talk with each other and go ahead and bring him online

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Scott. Are you there? Can you hear me? Okay, good

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I can hear you just fine now as well So when we do have some interaction, we'll be able to hear each other

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Well, well, I would assume you'd probably agree with me that if we're going to talk about my interpretation of John chapter 6

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I'll sort of have to give it first wouldn't that make sense? Okay, well why don't we go ahead and now you would you be able to hear me well enough when you're on hold to Catch the gist of what

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I'm saying. Yes. Okay. All right. Let's go ahead and put Scott on hold and let's I'm gonna take about Five minutes and I was gonna grab one of my where did it go?

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Hmm. Oh, hey, look at this My palm pilot just happens to have a program on it that allows me to do a timer.

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Isn't that wonderful? I Just love this thing. Anyways, so I'm gonna take about five minutes and I am going to Present a my understanding of John chapter 6 and then we will give

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Scott the same amount of time and he can explain to us his understanding and Where he feels

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I've gone wrong and if if it works out with Scott What we might be able to do is each take a little time afterwards to respond to what the other person had said give more time if needed to explain exactly where each one of us is coming from then we'll have some interaction and Then we'll see if there's anyone out there who would like to discuss the subject with us and you can feel free to do so at 8 6 6 5 5 0 39 15 that is a

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Toll -free number 8 6 6 5 5 0 39 15 if you would like to discuss that issue with us if if the calls are a little bit on the light side then we can go on and discuss some of the other passages that Also teach the same issue in regards to the sovereignty of God So I'm going to go ahead and start that little timer there and ask everyone to look at John chapter 6

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We're specifically looking at verses 35 through 45 But obviously we cannot isolate any passage from its context

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John chapter 6 begins with the feeding the 5 ,000 Then Jesus sending the disciples away walking upon The water to them the crowds following after him the next day and they encounter him in The synagogue in Capernaum and the discussion that follows there after is a discussion that I think we need to keep in mind

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Results in all of those alleged disciples except for the 12

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Walking away from Jesus. So there is something about what Jesus says throughout this entire presentation

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That is highly offensive to these surface level disciples who truly are not looking to Jesus for spiritual nourishment and Specifically in verse 35

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Jesus says to them I am the bread of life He who comes to me will not hunger and he who believes in me will never thirst and so immediately

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Jesus presents this concept of himself as spiritual sustenance because obviously coming to him and believing in him is not a physical action and so the hungering and the thirsting here is

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Spiritual hungering and thirst drink, but notice verse 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe so the context here is

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Explaining why it is that these men can see Jesus they can see him perform miracles.

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They can hear the incarnate Son of God speaking these words of life and yet they do not believe why is that?

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That is the focus of the following verses And of course, I think the most important verse we can look at verse 37, which is then explained in 38 and 39

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The Lord Jesus there says all That the Father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me

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I will certainly not cast out for I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent

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Me this is the will of him who sent me that of all that he has given me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day

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This should be the section of scripture that we focus our attention upon in the time that we have today

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Verse 37. The Lord Jesus says all that the Father gives me will come to me

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This is a phrase that leaves no doubt as to what is being said the action of the

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Father giving to the Son Must in the text precede the coming of anyone to Christ that is the divine action of the

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Father Giving his elect people to the Son determines who it is who will come to the

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Son These men who do not believe will not come to Christ they will not see in him their spiritual source of sustenance it is only those that the

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Father gives to the Son who will come to the Son and Everyone that the

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Father gives to the Son will come to him That is the basis then of the second part of the verse which says and the one who comes to me

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I will certainly not cast out who is the one who comes to Christ It is only the one who has previously been given by the

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Father to the Son He is the one who comes to Christ and as a result Christ will never

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Cast that one out. Well, why will he never cast that one out? Well because he is fulfilling the will of the

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Father as we see in verse 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me so the

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Son Explains the reason why he will not cast out any of those who are given to him in The context of he is fulfilling the

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Father's will he has come down from heaven not to do his own will But the will of the Father and what is the will of the

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Father for the Son verse 39 explains this very clearly This is the will of him who sent me that of all that he has given me now

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That's the same all we saw in verse 37. That's the same all that is the elect of God That's the same all of the people who come to Christ that of all that he has given me.

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I lose what I Lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day and this really is the fundamental issue and I'll close with this

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This passage requires Christ to be a perfect Savior who is able to save in and of himself

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Not through a cooperative effort with man that may or may not succeed This is not presenting to us of Jesus Christ who tries to save but fails in so many instances

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Due to a lack of cooperation the part of those he's attempting to save No The Son is a powerful

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Savior who is able to save all of those who are given to him by the

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Father on that last day that is The presentation

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I believe of the reformed understanding the reformed perspective regarding the subject of John chapter 6 very briefly stated of course, but done so in about five minutes so with that in mind

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I would like now to to give an equal amount of time or in fact a little more if you'd like since you have the double duty

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Scott of both the presenting your own understanding and then critiquing my own So if you'd like to take a little more time,

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I had to talk very quickly five minutes goes by very very quickly so, you know, whatever time you need and feel free to In fact before you get started, why don't you?

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Let folks know how they can get to your webpage and How they can contact you unless we forget that sometime in the future

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Well, my webpage is www. www .americancatholictruthsociety

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.com Is that all one word all one word There's a shorter version, but it's a little bit more confusing, right?

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I understand. So anyways American Catholics truth society .com. Okay, and they can get on your mailing list there and so on so forth

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There's mailing list there. There's the exit email list, which is a moderated Email list for Catholic apologetics and then there's the battle axe email list, which is nearly unrestricted apologetics, we kind of let it go almost like a

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Like a news group or like the IRC or well, even our she's a little bit more moderated, I guess

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But That channel pretty free pretty open. Okay, so already well

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Like I said take take whatever time you would like obviously within reason and let us know how you understand the passage and what you feel the

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The error of my presentation was well, first of all when we start off with the who is

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Who is drawn to Christ? We believe that When he is lifted up as it says in John 12 32 that he brings all men to Christ And I know you touched upon that in your book, but we're also looking at you know

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This is the drawing all men are drawn to Christ and I would say that the key passage in John 6 is not the drawing as much as it is the coming

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That's it, excuse me that these are the These people that are drawn to Christ Will you know?

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We're all drawn. Everybody has the potential to be drawn. That's not the giving of the Father though. That's the drawing.

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We're all invited We're all able to accept the free gift of God, which is salvation for our souls

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That's the gift The drawing is the gift then we have the gift of the

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Father that you were to Chuloo to Which I believe at the end. It's not the beginning.

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It's not the start of our walk with the Lord God will give us to Christ and then once we are given he will not lose us

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And that will be coming on the last day. Excuse me a little bit dry mouth I should have got a drink of water before I started

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You Know some what some people will operate reject the gift those people are not any less drawn.

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They just reject the gift And I would have to say, you know in a nutshell

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That's where I think you're in error on the on the passage from John 6 is that you focus on the drawing and not the coming

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And I can stop there for now Okay Alrighty.

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Okay. Well I guess the probably the best thing we could do would be to look at some of the things that she said and we can have some dialogue back and forth in regards to it the fundamental assertion then that that you're making is that so the key is not so much the drawing as as the coming and You made a mention that that's later on If you have the text there in front of you may we could

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Work through it together with the I know as you can see there are folks in the chat channel They're listening and and of course people listen to the the program many times after It's all over with because we do archive it

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When you look at John 6 37 and the first phrase all that the father gives me will come to me

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Um Would you agree or disagree that the giving of the father precedes and determines the the coming to the

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Sun John 6 37 all that the father gives me will come to me and what

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I'm suggesting is that the giving on the part of the father to the son of a

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People the all all that the father gives me in the Greek language anyways that act of giving occurs prior to The coming to Christ of any one of those who are so given hence the the first response

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I would make to the criticism that the key is not so much the drawing as the coming is that in Jesus's own words

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He places the drawing the giving of the father to the son this divine act

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Prior to anyone's coming to Christ. And so I guess the first the first question is for me

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Anyways, how do you understand that phrase and from your perspective? What does it mean that the father gives anyone to the

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Sun at all? Well, I would say that yes, it precedes that and the drawing

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I say proceeds to the drawing was on Calvary That was the one God drew everybody but then

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I would also go on to say that the actual giving of the father We don't have a direct reference of when that you know, you have to read into the scriptures to say that he did it when

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I converted he did it when I was baptized he did it when I Proclaimed him in public, you know, when did the giving happen?

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I I believe the giving of the father is he will give all that persevere We have free will to survive in our life and and we need to persevere

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We have a choice in this matter. And if we decide to turn our backs on Christ We're lost again

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We're back into the same boat We were in before only worse Because even if the Bible even tells us it's worse to be have known the truth and rejected it than to have never heard the truth

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Okay, I'm old there are a number of statements that you made there. First of all, you said that the

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The drawing here we don't know when it is and yet Jesus specifically says in verse 38 that he's come down from heaven not to do his own will

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But the will the father and this is the will of him who sent me that of all that he has given me

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I lose nothing. So obviously the giving has to take place prior to Christ's entrance into the world

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So we are given a time frame as to when this giving took place. It is prior

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To Christ coming into the world and I would assert that in light of the rest of Scripture Ephesians chapter 1 says that before time itself

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This act on the part of God the father of predestination took takes place So I think we are given the time frame and whatever the time frame is it's before the incarnation

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It's before any single individual comes to Christ So I think that's the first thing

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I'd point out from from John 6 You then said that the I think and and correct me if if I misunderstood you

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I think the next point you made was that the father gives those the son who persevere is is that what you said?

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Yes Could you show me where in John 6 it says that? Those who the father foresees will persevere are the ones that he gives to the son

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It doesn't specify those who persevere it just says that's my point again it doesn't pinpoint who those people are and We have to look into other parts of the scriptures where it tells us

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You know that we're in you know we're in this race You know run to win you know don't just walk through the track you've got to run and win this race

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You know because if you just walk around the track you may not make it well. Let me see if I understand this

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So when when Jesus says in verse 39? That the father's will for him is

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That of all that he has given Christ he loses nothing But raises it up on the last day is the son able to do the will of the father

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Well sure and but again. He has not told us who those people are yet He says that those who are given will make it

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But when when are when is this giving going to happen will it happen at the judgment? Which is what I would say it happens that when they are judged and when they are judged

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They're given to him and they will no longer There was no longer any question There's no no doubt that these people are saved and are going to heaven but until we are judged we can't know that Okay, now you say that this giving may even take place the judgment

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How can that be in light of what I've already pointed out to you that in verse? 37 all that the father gives me will come to me our coming to him is

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After the father's giving The the there is there is no way that the the

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Greek term that is translated There will come to me, which is a future verb

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Is is going to be taking place? Before the action the one all the father gives me so the giving the father

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Precedes our coming to Christ hence would precede the judgment and as I pointed out in verse 37 It precedes the incarnation as well.

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So if that's the case, how do you respond to that? Information from the text itself

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Well again, it doesn't say when it doesn't say what the time period is I mean if I give you something and you will come you might come two minutes later

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You may come three seconds later. You may come a millennia later There's no time period established as to when the coming will follow the giving

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Well, the coming will happen during our lives, of course But the point I'm making is that the giving which which again that your primary criticism of the interpretation?

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was that the key is not so much the drawing as the coming and I've said to you.

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I'm sure you'll for many many times that I believe one of the biggest differences between Roman Catholics and Protestants in their view of soteriology and their interpretation of Scripture is

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The difference between what I would call anthropocentrism and theocentrism that is a focus upon the role of man as central or a focus upon the role of God as central and What I'm suggesting to you is that the verbs in John chapter 6?

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the verbs have God as the one acting and man as the one acted on and The time frame is given in verses 37 and 39 because the act of God in giving us to the

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Sun must precede our coming to the Sun so my point it sounds to me like what you're saying is that our coming and in fact our

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Persevering is what determines what God will do and I am saying that the plain reading of the text both in the original language and in any

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English Translation is that what God has done in eternity determines whether we come and whether we're raised up on the last day

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Well as you said earlier, we cannot isolate any passage We can't take this one passage without looking at the total context of the of all the scriptures and and for that matter

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You know my Traditions of my church, you know play playing come into play here, too

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We follow this tradition all the way back through you know prior to the the

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Reformation and and all and all the Changes that happened in the church or to the church since that time

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What I'm looking at also is the is the fact that you can't overlook that God part of God's Will for us was to give us free will

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Which I know you rejected the concept of free will but that's very much part of Catholicism you know st.

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Augustine right a whole wrote a whole treatise on on free will and and There's numerous other other points in if you take away free will you take away?

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Justice because there is no justice if we're all puppets Well, of course, I don't believe we're all puppets and Augustine's view of free will is very different than the semi

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Pelagian view today But so is it would you then be be be saying that in point of fact your interpretation?

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This passage is is not actually provided by an exegesis of the passage itself, but is instead primarily determined on the basis of the teaching magisterium of the church and For example, can you point me to an infallible interpretation of John 6 37 to 39 in any?

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Official teaching in the magisterium. I'm not aware of one well, when you you bring up the word infallible there's very few times and they would

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The quote unquote infallible teachings we have the magisterium We have the consistent teaching of the church which would represent, you know a part of the

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John 6 that your chapter in your book just pretty much skips and that's the

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Eucharist, you know There's a consistent teaching in the church from all the way back to the first century that the

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Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ and that's what Jesus commands us to eat in in John 6

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We must eat and drink his body and blood and if we don't do that, we have no life in us

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No, well, do you think Scott that what Jesus meant in John 6 35 to 45?

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Must be understood in its own context before you ever get to John 653 and following and that in point of fact if you've misunderstood him in those previous verses

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Don't you think that greatly increases the probability of your not understanding? What Jesus is saying when he talks about eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

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I would have to probably wholeheartedly agree with you there and I Take the concept of what

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I said in the first part of there that the giving Happens later the coming, you know, those who are given to Christ are not lost

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That's later. That's our judgment. Once he gives them to us, you know us to him. We are not lost.

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There's no way There's no possibility of loss, but there are so many other parts of Scripture that tell us how we can be lost

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You know James 5 19 and 20 tells us, you know, the one who's gone away if you bring him back

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You've saved a sinner from death and covered a multitude of sins so if in point of fact the text of John chapter 6 and I think we both believe that the

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Bible is consistent with itself and that it is inerrant in the inspired

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Word of God if the text of John 6 does indicate that the giving of the Father to the

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Son is not at the judgment and in fact is prior to any human action of our coming to him and in point of fact is before the

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Reincarnation of Christ and and in light of the rest of Scripture We know we're specifically told that is before the beginning of time itself second

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Timothy 1 9 and 10 Ephesians 1 3 through 11 so on so forth if in point of fact the text indicates that then your position

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Simply would not be tenable would it? Yeah, if I followed what you were saying, yes, but I don't follow what you're saying.

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I'm saying that there's this happens later the the giving the

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The drawing happens now it happened in the past the giving and the coming happens later

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Could can you explain though? And and I don't want to I don't want to be Inhospitable here though, but verse 39 says in order that all which he has given me

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It's a perfect tense there dead. Oh Ken Moy is the verb How can that fit?

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With your position a perfect tense verb is a complete action the past the abiding results the present

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So there is no question on the basis of Jesus's own words John 639 that the giving of the

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Father the Son preceded The words that he's speaking here. So you you can say well,

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I don't believe that but what positive evidence Can you give to me? That that isn't a perfect tense verb or that it doesn't refer to a past action that is completed as far as the

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Words concerned here. We're looking at you know, when you get down to that very, you know Grammarical level

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I think you're going to find a microscope and we're going into you know Dissecting little words and what each word means.

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What is the whole of Scripture say? We can't look at this one word and say this happened in the past and this has to have happened in the past I can

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Speak of a future event where when I have given you something it will happen You know and that could be very well be what this verse is talking about when we look at the consistency of Scripture We're talking about persevering to the end, you know, what's the purpose and persevering if it's already done?

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Well, so what you're saying is and and and I would love to go after all those those other

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Discussions and we can in time, but I want to stay with the text. So what you're saying is that the verb choices that the

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Lord Jesus uses That getting down to that level Is is putting it or to find a microscope and so when you say well

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We don't know what the time frame is Even though the the Greek verbs tell us exactly what it is that we shouldn't utilize that Now the time frame and we have to understand also that God does not exist within our time frame

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What the Father knows he has foreknown Everything that will happen in our life and that's a very

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Catholic understanding of predestination We understand the the

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God knows all and what knows all that will happen, but he gave us free Will he gave us the ability to choose him or reject him and he knows what our choices will be

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But he does not affect that choice more than you know, the fact that he has given us the opportunity

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He sent his son to die for us. And if we accept his son, we are saved

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Well, not a bully pulpit for God to say, you know, I'm gonna pick Joe Paul over there

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But I'm not gonna pick Sally Smith over there. So so God has no freedom in who he saves He just we are the ones who control this

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God is unfree Gave us that gift that was his will to give us the gift to be able to choose him

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Is there any place in Scripture you can point me to that says free will is a gift of God? Not in those words.

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No, I could not. Are you aware who the first person was in church history to use the phrase free will? Yeah, Tertullian actually is the one who introduced it to theological language it is 31 minutes past the hour

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We need to take our first break if you would like to get involved We have one person online And my ears just exploded right out of my right off my body here

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Eight six six five five zero thirty nine fifteen is the number and you can get online right now

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We'll be right back and welcome back to dividing line.

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I'm taking insurance out on hearing loss. Oh Ouch well, hey, we are having a discussion today on the program concerning the

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Interpretation and meaning of John chapter six. I I honestly think we've already gotten to the the main issue and that is

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I would suggest that theology and that tradition are to be theology is to be derived from Scripture and Tradition is to be tested on the basis of Scripture and that Jesus's words

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Were very much Given to us so that we can for example look at exactly what he said that his words are life and that if looking at something such as the

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Meaning of verbs the the tense of a verb is something that is is going too far then

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I would point out that Every passage that has been cited such as John twelve thirty -two

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Or references in James five. I can simply say well, you know, that's putting it under too much of a microscope.

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We we need to We need to look at the whole context of Scripture and the whole context of Scripture is very clear that it's

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God who saves that It is to his glory and to his alone that we are dead in our sins and our trespasses

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There's nothing that we can do in of ourselves and I can make then the presentation that Jesus doesn't lose any of his sheep

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That it is very clear that he saves all of those that are given to him and that all the passages allegedly about apostasy are about either loss of rewards or about false believers themselves and while all of those things

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I just said may be true I believe that the only way to demonstrate that they are true is to drive them from the exegesis of the text of Scripture itself and so How would you how would you respond?

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Oh ouch. How would you sorry about that Scott? How would you respond to my statement that look

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I I can say the same thing I can say well It's you Scott that are missing the entire context of Scripture and the sovereignty of God and and all the rest of stuff

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The only way for us to decide that I believe is To go into the text of Scripture itself.

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I get the feeling that from your perspective You would say no, the only way to decide that is to listen to what you identify as the soul infallible

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Church Well, it's not just that but also, you know I thought you know came to me be a little birdie that whispered in my ear that Jesus Wasn't even speaking

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Greek, which is what you say when you go back to the original tongue that you know That was a translation Jesus when he spoke to the people spoke in their language which was

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Aramaic and the tenth would have been left to the interpreter not to You know, it's we don't necessarily know that in Greek if Jesus had been speaking

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Greek That was the tenth he used but then again we can say use the word has to mean, you know

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My mother has given me love when past present future so if you take that position then that the

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Greek Of John 6 is not finally determinative And that the are you saying that the

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Greek of John 6 is an interpretation that is fallible I'm not saying it's fallible, but I'm saying that when we get down to that minute, you know looking at you know

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These little pieces of it and ignoring the rest of scriptures that tell us otherwise, you know, just to prove a point

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I think we're going too far. Well, obviously, I don't believe I'm ignoring anything I would see I make the exact same charge to you

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I believe you're ignoring the the rest of Scripture that is so clear on the sovereignty of God and the deadness of man and sin

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But my point is then we get down to the interpretation of Scripture. It sounds like you just said well Jesus wasn't speaking in this language.

35:18

Well, let's let's let's say just for a moment The Jesus was speaking in Aramaic in the synagogue

35:24

Capernaum and not in Greek it is my understanding that the historical official position of the

35:31

Roman Catholic Church is that the Canonized Versions of the

35:37

Gospels are in the Greek language and that there is no canonical John written in any other language than Greek So it seems to me that Rome has said these are the original books, these are the canon of Scripture and not that these are a simply good translation, but we really can't place much weight in the tenses of verbs and in point of fact,

36:05

I would say that Robertson Genis and Carl Keating and Patrick Madrid and Stephen Ray They all have gone into the tenses of verbs in the

36:17

Greek without once saying well, you know But this is just minutia Well, I mean,

36:23

I don't belittle anybody that wants to go to that level, but when we go to that level at the cost of The rest of Scripture, you know an interpretation of Scripture when you think you're losing something there and then on top of that to go back to another point you made the

36:40

Church did not canonize a specific translation of Scripture. It said these are the books

36:46

Yes in the original languages. I mean it has always been understood that the

36:53

Gospel of John was written in Greek and If anyone has read the early church fathers if you rate read chrysostom if you read

37:00

Athanasius they argue on on the very same basis that I am in regards to for example

37:07

Athanasius uses the form ago. I meet John 858 to demonstrate the deity of Christ the church fathers at Nicaea made reference to the very same verbal forms that I am and It never seemed to cross their mind that they were somehow

37:22

In any way shape or form making an error Well, anyways, we've got some callers calling in.

37:27

Let's um, then this is always this is always a trick This is always tricky. So Scott stay near your phone in case something weird happens

37:37

Getting more than one person on and making sure that you both can hear each other is

37:44

Very very tricky. So let's um, I'm assuming that we have Johnny online somewhere out there in the control room and Because I see lights flashing.

37:54

So Johnny, are you there? Okay, Johnny. Let's say some say hi to Scott and make sure you two can hear each other

38:03

Okay, I heard Johnny for a second there so did I but we've lost Johnny since then oh He said

38:09

I am here and then the lines gone Okay, do we have anyone else?

38:15

Mr. Pierce in the mighty control room of the Death Star Mike is on Mike on Mike.

38:23

Mike. Are you there? I Don't have a mic either. My mic is on that's because it's right in front of my face

38:30

But I don't think we mean the same Mac Mike Well, I don't think we have any callers. So let's let's move forward to The next issue

38:39

I guess and since we're talking about the oh, did I hear something there? Yes, can you hear me?

38:45

Yes, who's this? This is Mike calling from Ogden, New York Okay, oh Good.

38:52

All righty, Mike. What's your question now? You've you've heard the topic today Yes, discussing

38:57

John six a few minutes ago. My question is for mr Windsor was Roman fallible when declaring st.

39:04

Augustine a saint when he clearly denied the teaching of transubstantiation and Trent did say that anyone who does deny the teaching of the transubstantiation and perpetuatory sacrifice are under the anathema of God Did you catch all that Scott?

39:19

Yes, but I don't believe that Augustine holds that view of rejecting the transubstantiation

39:24

Word Transubstantiation was not even developed yet. Excuse me, sir. He did he said for example

39:32

He committed and delivered to his disciples the figure of his body and blood and he does distinguish

39:40

What he means by the word figure within his writings that it is a representative of something not the exact or the reality of something and you can read that for example in his homilies on Psalms 3 number 1 and There there is also many other places where he said that the

40:00

Eucharist is not the literal body and blood of Christ Well, I guess maybe what I could do to help

40:07

Examine this question would in essence be if As I put this way would would it impact your understanding of the the infallible teaching of the church

40:22

Scott if in point of fact Augustine did not Hold a position that could in any way be made consistent with the later definition of the doctrine of Transubstantiation or is it your viewpoint that until a doctrine is specifically defined dogmatically

40:42

That a person in prior generations or prior centuries could still be a a faithful Catholic and yet have held a

40:52

View that was fundamentally different from what was later defined. Does that make any sense? That makes sense

40:58

There's a I mean and that's a that's definitely part of the teaching on a dogmatic teaching If the church has not defined it prior to your existence

41:06

You can't be held accountable for holding a contrary to contrary position

41:12

But I still I don't believe Augustine actually held that position I have seen works it from his and I'm not prepared to present them right at this moment

41:20

I would be more than happy to you know, Dave, you know What am

41:26

I trying to think put you know Put that up to a later time and I'll post the response on my web.

41:31

Excuse me my website Well, it is interesting. I believe that I presented some passages in the debate with Roberts and Janice on the subject of The Mass.

41:42

I believe that a full reading of Augustine on the subject is is very very much

41:49

Relevant to that subject but be that as it may would it impact you if in point of fact someone as Great as Augustine in his teaching

41:59

Did hold to a view? That indicated that the fleshly body of Christ having been resurrected from the grave is seated at the right hand of the father and that We have been deprived until the second coming of the physical presence of Jesus Christ leaves that he teaches and has in other places has very much affirmed the

42:26

Eucharist as Being the real literal body of Christ. I think we're getting a little bit off -subject trying to focus on Augustine on this particular point of well when when you get callers you

42:39

I've done the Bible Answer Man broadcast many times and whatever is underneath that that blinking light

42:45

You know, if you've heard the discussions I had with when I was on with Tim Staples, you have absolutely no

42:52

No way of being prepared All right We're gonna try to get Johnny back on on the line and see if Johnny can ask his question

42:58

Johnny. Are you there? Johnny Johnny, I think Johnny's calling from California and we're trying to get hold of Johnny Going once for Johnny.

43:10

Hello, Johnny Okay, I can hear you now you're there whatever guys in the control room whatever you just did that's what you've got to do

43:19

We're here. Go go for it, Johnny Okay, I'm sorry about the problem. All right. First. I wanted to just say that I used to believe in free will and I was reading the writings of Augustine I know that I don't

43:31

I don't know what the name of the Roman Catholic gentleman is their name Scott Windsor I Read the writings of Augustine and one of the things that I read and just briefly on some of his later writings where he put in the idea that all of the things that the true believers of God are in essence of the the perseverance of the

43:55

Saints the The being enlightened and things like that, but all of those things According to what

44:01

I read in Augustine were all preceded by God's sovereign choice. And I remember in his writings

44:07

He went on to say that Those that are saved are saved by the grace and mercy of God and those that are not saved are

44:15

Receiving the justice of God and he said that on the basis that those that were saved Were the ones that were being taught in their hearts by God and those that were not were not being taught by God in their hearts and I was on the basis of the will of God and one of the things that I had problems with one of the one of the problems that I had in trying to reconcile my own belief is that For me to be right,

44:42

I had to believe that God's sovereign choice and grace had to be dependent upon my willingness to Shall we say desire or to run the race for God?

44:55

And I think that that's a contradicted by scripture in Romans 9 17 where I'm sorry

45:00

I think it was on 9 16 where it says so then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs

45:06

But on God who has mercy And I see that all of the verses that dealing with those who like where the

45:13

Bible says those who believe the same shall be saved but those things are always preceded by God's sovereign choice and it just seems hard for me to believe that a

45:24

Dead person can actually have a desire to do the things of God since we have we are in enmity with God So when you start back with the st.

45:34

Augustine and I did have this reference Andy from the his book the city of God book book 5 chapter 9

45:41

He makes a statement when in regarding free will and foreknowledge He says and I quote but the religious mind chooses both

45:48

Confesses both and maintains both by the faith of piety Well now Scott you are aware of something called the retracted illness

45:58

Yes, and you know that? Augustine was one of those interesting interesting folks who

46:06

Actually had the how shall we call it the intestinal fortitude to go back and say you know what a lot of stuff that I?

46:13

wrote in the past wasn't really any good and That in his later life. He specifically retracted many of his statements in regards to synergism primarily in light of his battles with Pelagius and that the final view that he took was was one just as Johnny had had indicated in regards to that, but And you could comment on that if you'd like, but I think the point that Johnny would probably like to have addressed

46:42

Since you had mentioned a number of times issues such as you know the full testimony of Scripture He did read

46:49

Romans chapter 9 verse 16 Which says so then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs

46:56

But on God who has mercy the scripture says to Pharaoh for this very purpose I raised you up to demonstrate my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth

47:06

So then he has mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he desires

47:14

Now that again is just another one of the many testimonies of Scripture Is that not a part of what we have to look at when we are?

47:23

Interpreting the issue of of God's giving of People to the

47:29

Sun and the Sun's perfection saving them so on so forth a James What I what

47:34

I also wanted to say though, and that is that this Since a person is dead in sin

47:39

And it's actually one of the things I realized in looking back at what I believe because it was a reading what

47:45

Augustine said in his later writings, I did say later writings and It was in reading that that I looked back

47:51

And I said to myself in order for a person to be or to actually be what

47:56

I thought they were There there has to be something in them that is actually in a sense conscious

48:03

In order to receive the life or in order to be willing to receive the life when the

48:08

Bible says that we are Dead in our sins so in actuality would have to mean that God is Going around to dead corpses and asking them if they want to be made alive

48:17

Yeah, and the Bible is very clear that those that are dead can't do anything. It is God who raises the dead spiritually

48:23

How would you respond to to that Scott especially in light of the fact that? You did say earlier that you believe that the giving of the father

48:33

To the son that the father gives those who persevere so in other words if you don't persevere

48:39

You're not given and so God's giving is just simply in response to what we do How do you deal with the fact the

48:46

Bible does say that we're dead in sin? What is what is dead in sin mean to you? And if I can with Johnny still on the line

48:52

Maybe we can roll your response back to to John 644 and maybe bring that in because I did specifically mention we get to that and I Apologize for going away from that, but how do you understand dead in sin?

49:04

Well, we're all dead in sin when when we're not reconciled to God and we get we become reconciled to God through first accepting him second through our baptism and then third through continual, you know seeking of forgiveness of sins and and and Through in Catholicism through the sacrament of reconciliation or sacrament of penance

49:28

So a person who is dead in sin can still accept God We accept

49:35

God because again we go back to the drawing and When Jesus was lifted up on the cross, he drew all men

49:42

Okay, let me since that's come up a number of times and Johnny Hold on there just a second in John chapter 12 verse 32.

49:50

You've used that a number of times. It is your position I assume given what you said that John 12 32 does not mean that Jesus draws all men as in Jew and Gentile because you know the context that is

50:03

Jesus had in that in John chapter 12 Greeks come seeking Jesus and Andrew comes to Jesus and Jesus's words are the result of the fact that non

50:12

Jews Greeks Gentiles are seeking after him and In that context he says if I be lifted up from the earth

50:18

I will draw all men into myself your view is that all men means every single individual person, right?

50:25

Yes, and I don't think that The reading from John 12 has to go your way

50:31

Okay But let me ask you does not the Bible say that the cross is a stumbling block and is repulsive to those who are perishing

50:40

The very nature of Christianity is a stumbling block to many people. I understand So, how is it that the cross which is a stumbling block foolishness?

50:49

And something that is repulsive to natural men. How can the cross because that's how Jesus is lifted up How can that draw all men the cross doesn't do the drawing

50:57

Jesus does the drawing? When I am lifted up on the cross, I will draw all men to me not the cross

51:03

The cross doesn't do the drawing Jesus does the drawing? Okay So in John 6 44 then When Jesus says no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up in the last

51:12

Day, you would understand the drawing of John 12, which comes six chapters later to be the same drawing

51:20

That's discussed here in John 6 44 It would be a similar drawing yes, and but even though I mean we're switching from the father draws and the son draws

51:28

But you know, it's God doing the drawing. Okay And what you would say that in John 6 44 every man is drawn by the father to the son

51:38

I say every man has been given the gift and we all have the opportunity to accept that free gift

51:44

Okay So your understanding of John 6 44 is that no one can come to me Unless the father who sent me draws him and all men have been drawn so all men are able to come to me, right?

51:55

Essentially. Yes. Okay. Could you explain? Then in John 6 44 and you know,

52:01

I'm not I want people understand I'm not throwing anything at you that you haven't had an opportunity to look at I sent you last week

52:07

I'd like you to confirm my chapter from the potter's freedom specifically on this passage So I'm not presenting anything that I haven't you haven't already seen

52:16

The last phrase of John 6 44 says and I will raise him up on the last day Now is everyone gonna be raised up on the last day?

52:29

Okay, the last phrase of John 6 44 says and I will raise him up on the last day is

52:36

Everyone is every man woman and child. No only those that the father gifts not the ones that are drawn.

52:42

All right, so You must between the drawn who's drawn and who's given and And if the ones who are given there's no difference between the given and who will be raised up Okay, but there is a difference between the drawn and the given

52:56

Okay, is there a difference between the drawn and the raised up then it would follow logically that there must be

53:04

Not everyone who's drawn right, yes, can you explain why then in John 6 44?

53:11

That there is no difference between the one who is drawn and the one who is raised In fact, if you

53:16

I presented this in the chapter No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him on the last day

53:30

Nobody can come unless they're drawn And if they but the key still is not being who is drawn but who can who has come

53:38

The problem is however that again, maybe you would just believe we're looking too closely at John 6 44

53:45

But if you derive your theology from the text of Scripture then you would see that the one who is raised up by Christ is the one who is drawn to him by the father and the one who is drawn to him by the father is the one who

53:58

Is given to him by the father and only those drawn too many conclusions Actually, I think there's no other way to understand the passage

54:06

I would simply ask you if you're saying that the hymn and there's only two words between the word him out on in the

54:12

Greek language if you look at the text itself you are telling us that the first out on the first hymn is

54:20

Everybody in the world from all times at all places and the second hymn is a limited group based upon They're accepting the work of the father and accepting

54:30

Christ and I'm just asking you based on the text Can you give us any basis for that from the text it's a broader base when you say no one

54:38

Because now we're talking about everyone Well, the term is out on and that is the masculine singular pronoun and it specifically says unless the father who sent me draws out on him

54:51

Kago on a stay so out on I will raise him out on in the last day

54:56

There is no reason if we just let the text speak for itself to differentiate between the two out

55:03

Hans But in this particular text, it doesn't say anything about those who are drawn that didn't come

55:10

Well, that's probably because the parts of Scripture do make reference to you know

55:15

Many are called but few are chosen did God fail in his calling when when he called many but only few were chosen

55:22

Well, actually in that particular passage, I would point out to you that Romans chapter 8

55:27

Specifically does lay out the golden chain of redemption that says that all who are foreknown or predestined all who are predestined are called

55:34

All who are called are justified and all who are justified are glorified So the golden chain of redemption

55:39

I think is likewise very much opposed To the Roman Catholic understanding because from your perspective a person can be justified and yet not glorified.

55:49

Is that correct? I Don't really follow your golden chain of redemption though.

55:55

Okay. Well, let's let's look at that in just a second Johnny, did you did you want to?

56:01

Yes, I did want to say something and I'm not trying to run away from John chapter 6 I just want to point out that I believe that you are right

56:08

Those are one of the verses those are some of the verses that I have had problem with and one of the things I noticed

56:14

Is that it says that no one comes to the son unless the father draws them all that the father gives to the son

56:20

The son never let's go and those that the father gives those will be raised up in the last day and they none of them will

56:27

Be lost, but one of the things I noticed Is that in the book of Romans and this all goes in the context between the deadness of man and sin and God's making him alive

56:38

I would use the metaphor that man is born asleep and man awakens him to newness of life

56:44

One of the things I noticed is that for example Romans 3 Tells us that no one reaches out to God and it seems to me and I don't know if I'm misrepresenting the

56:52

Catholic or the Armenian here, but it seems to me that for God's salvation to be dependent upon man's desire to will or to run the race

57:02

Shall we say it must mean that something there is a presupposition saying that man

57:07

Can in some semblance or a way reach out to God when the Bible clearly says that he not only does not but as it says

57:15

In the Romans chapter 8, which you just made reference to in verse 7 It says because the mind set on the flesh is hostile

57:22

Towards God for it does not subject itself to the law of God for it is it is not able to do so My point being is that if man is so incapable and in fact

57:34

No one is righteous and no one has any desire to do the will of God Since it is

57:39

God who makes us alive Spiritually to do the will of God and to preserve here because all of the things that that the

57:47

Bible teaches that man must do Or in other words yet man must do in order to be saved are not

57:53

Conditions, but rather the result of God's sovereign choice. And my question is how can the salvation of the

58:02

Non -believer and of the non -believer that becomes a believer be dependent upon man's desire when he doesn't have one

58:09

How can he in some sense be conscious? How can a dead man say yes when he is dead in his sins?

58:19

well there again we Back to and I'd like to see the the reference and for Augustine where he retracts his position on free

58:27

Well, I mean, I don't that's something I can't you know relate to right now because I haven't seen that and I'd like to I would

58:34

Like to see that So either one of you have that reference handy I don't have it on the top of my off the top of my head

58:40

But it is they have the all the church fathers with 38 volume set on the internet It just says early church fathers you look up Augustine and look on his later writings where he retracts on His idea of predestination and where he says and and I read this myself and I was a little shocked and a little

58:59

Struggling with it, but he clearly said that those that are not saved are Receiving the justice of God Because they were not taught by the father and only those that are taught by the father are saved by the grace and mercy of God and if it was really relevant

59:12

I could I could bring up a number of quotations about the fact that he taught that faith Is a gift of God given only to the elect it is not given to those who are not elect

59:20

That without that gift of faith a person that cannot come to Christ and that all who are given that gift of faith will come to Christ that's all right, and that's again.

59:29

That's his later writings because he had now Engaged the Pelagian controversy and his his rejection of Pelagius that results in all the stuff with Zosimus and all the rest of stuff, but going back to the the main issue that Johnny raised and not so much

59:44

Augustine, but Romans chapter 8 verses 7 through 8 says those who are according to flash

59:51

Cannot not will not but cannot do what is pleasing to God. They are opposed to God They are his enemies and the reference that Johnny mentioned, but it didn't give his

59:59

Romans 311 There are none who seek after God now in light of those things

01:00:04

I think what Johnny was asking is aren't we dealing here with a Scott and and I believe this is the case

01:00:10

I believe we're dealing with here is that you have said more than once look We've got to take as a starting place this idea of free will and I say to you

01:00:18

No We have to take as a starting place what God's word reveals about man and that the scripture over and over again says man

01:00:26

Cannot come man cannot do man cannot do these things if man is dead in sin

01:00:34

Then what does it mean to be dead in sin if as you say well, he can be dead in sin, but he can still choose

01:00:40

Christ do do dead men Choose anything. I mean you're you work in the in sort of a medical area

01:00:47

I was a guy who worked in as a department fellow in admin physiology. We had

01:00:54

Cadavers in I demonstrated cadavers for high school students when I was in college and I do the old

01:00:59

Quincy thing member We're dating ourselves here But you know you pull back the the sheet, you know and the kids You know throw up and do all kind of fun stuff and and I actually had two cadavers a male and a female

01:01:09

I Was able to take their skulls off and open their chests up and pull their lungs out and their hearts out and I was able to demonstrate all of the the body parts on real dead cadavers and in all the time

01:01:22

I did that not once did either one of them complained about what I was doing and the reason is

01:01:28

They're dead. And so I could have asked them anything. I wanted to I could have offered those cadavers anything

01:01:34

I wanted to but they're dead. So how can we start with this idea of well dead, but not really dead

01:01:42

God Well, because we are dead, but not really dead We are living sentient beings that are given an opportunity sometime during our life to hear the

01:01:53

Word of God If we hear that Word of God and reject it We're in trouble if we've never heard the

01:01:59

Word of God Then we're there's a different category there and that's in that's in Scriptures to about you know

01:02:04

It's better to have never heard the Word of God than to hurt it rejected So when it says that we are dead in our trespasses and sins, for example,

01:02:11

Lazarus is dead in the tomb and Jesus says come forth

01:02:17

Lazarus What you're saying is Lazarus could have said yeah, I like it in here.

01:02:23

I'll stay here when God commanded him to come out. No So when the

01:02:29

Spirit of God brings regeneration in the life of one of his elect going to be resistant I believe it can be and I believe that you know,

01:02:39

James 5 19 and 20 shows us where it can be I believe the the story of the prodigal son, you know is an allusion to you know somebody who has the inheritance and squandered it but yet is able to come back

01:02:52

Scott is the fact that neither James 5 nor Luke 14 or 13 the passage on 15 the passage on the

01:03:01

Prodigal son that neither one of them is in the context of a discussion of how it is a person saved relevant. I Believe that it is, you know relevant

01:03:09

I believe that there when you get into the you know You're again you try to isolate scriptures and you can't do that You even said that when you opened up the show today, we cannot isolate any passage

01:03:18

Well, that was my point in the context of those two but one of them that you decided as being

01:03:24

Indicative of how a person is saved and what deadness and sin means is even about that subject There are two the whole

01:03:29

Bible is about how people are saved like you can't you know He's making an allusion to you know, his son that was gone and it was lost is returned

01:03:38

Isn't that in the context of the discussion of the Jews who were upset that Jesus was dining with sinners

01:03:47

That is the context that may be what it where he was and what was going on But the story has deeper meaning than that.

01:03:52

Okay. All right. Hey Johnny, thanks for calling in today. I'm glad we got you on All right.

01:03:58

It was a pleasure to talk with you and it was nice to speak with you. Mr. Scott Okay to you Johnny and I will look into this reference on on Augusta, but again,

01:04:06

I don't think that takes away from his earlier teaching that he believed in the in the predestination and that is the teaching of the church to that we do accept certain forms of transfer of Predestination well before I go let me just say this.

01:04:23

I just wanted to say this My I'm not where I'm not trying to isolate any passages. It's just that when

01:04:28

I believed in free will I looked at verses Like John chapter 3 verse 16, which

01:04:33

I thought was the Achilles heel to the doctrine of double predestination But I noticed that I had to take the word world and redefine it every time

01:04:42

Four times the word world is there from verse 16 and 17 and I believe 18 and I had to redefine it to mean elect earth or whatever

01:04:52

Just so it would fit my presupposition because my presupposition was that a person is at least conscious enough to receive

01:04:59

God And the problem that I have and this is I mean what I think that happened with August and just before I go

01:05:05

I'm just gonna say this Augustine saw that I think Pelagius had him there because Augustine knew that he couldn't have it both ways say that we don't have free will to be sinless

01:05:17

But we do have free will to receive God when we are still dead in sins. I think that Augustine size and Chris inconsistency there and he changed his mind.

01:05:26

I Agree Johnny, well, but Scott has said he's not familiar with that passage. So we'll maybe have that one for a future

01:05:32

Thanks a lot Johnny. All right. Thank you. Eight six six five five zero thirty nine fifteen Eight six six five five zero thirty nine fifteen before we go to our next caller by the name of John let me just Reference the passage you had said earlier that you were unfamiliar with what

01:05:50

I was referring to in Romans chapter 8 We have the Golden Chain of Redemption, which is verses 29 and 30

01:05:57

It says for those whom he foreknew he also predestined to become become conformed the image of his son

01:06:03

So that he would be the firstborn among many brethren and those whom he predestined He also called and those whom he called he also justified and these whom he justified

01:06:12

He also glorified and the reason this is called the Golden Chain of Redemption is because you have each of these links for knowledge

01:06:21

Predestination from predestination to calling from calling to justification and from justification to glorification

01:06:29

And each one of these is actually an aorist tense verb referring to an action of God and normally an action of God in the past and In none of these does man contribute in none of these is man's action determinative of what

01:06:49

God himself does and The reason I brought it to your attention Scott was that as I understand it in the

01:06:56

Roman Catholic system a person can be justified and yet commit something called a mortal sin and that a mortal sin destroys the grace of Justification and that if that person does not at least desire and there's even controversy about this

01:07:09

Of course as you well know but desire the sacrament of penance prior to their death that a person who was once justified

01:07:17

Can end up In hell undergoing punishment for their sin And the reason

01:07:23

I bring it up is according to the end of verse 30 all who are justified are also glorified that there is no category of once justified but now unjustified and so in essence

01:07:38

I believe you break the golden chain with that type of teaching and I do believe at some point

01:07:44

In our discussions that I raised both the Ephesians 1 and Romans 8 29 through 30 as possible passages we could look at now if you say well,

01:07:55

I haven't looked at that so Let's let's talk about at a time then fine We can we can go to our next caller

01:08:01

But if you have a chance to look at that, I would be interested in knowing how

01:08:06

Roman Catholics respond I've gotten one response from a fellow you and I both know called the ox At times in the past that I found somewhat interesting but those whom he justified these he also glorified

01:08:17

How does that work? I? Believe that we were still leaving out, you know the that in that context

01:08:25

It doesn't eliminate the possibility of free will still it just doesn't cover that end of it and we're

01:08:31

Again, I've not really researched that particular passage. I've heard it before I Didn't mean to say

01:08:36

I'd never heard of it, but I had never I have not Studied it and I disagree with your conclusion was what

01:08:43

I was trying to say, but that was neither here nor there. Okay I think

01:08:48

I'm not, you know ready to give you a response right now on that one. So Okay.

01:08:53

Alrighty. All right. We have two callers online and believe it or not only about 17 minutes left in the program

01:08:59

It goes by fairly quickly. I'm well, it's gone by quickly for me I don't know if it's gone by quickly for you

01:09:04

Scott or not. That's somewhat of a subjective call But let's let's talk with John up in the the portals of Mormonism itself

01:09:16

Salt Lake City, Utah John I can hear something in the background there. Are you on? Hello?

01:09:22

Hello, dr White I really appreciate your work. Actually, you're very instrumental in Helping me leave

01:09:28

Mormonism. I came across your hypothesis. I was tracked I think it's it's men not God which started my investigation the book of Abraham.

01:09:34

Oh great But my question actually to Scott would be actually comes off his web website

01:09:42

I Think I have no power right now if I can actually quote it But I think he had the position that the reason why the people actually turned away was because Jesus was teaching on eating the flesh and drinking the blood

01:09:57

Or his position or the Catholic position on the Eucharist I'm curious.

01:10:03

Why you believe why you think that people actually turned away verse 6 to 5 For I mean for me,

01:10:11

I think it's it's the actual teaching that Jesus the father

01:10:16

John the preservation the election etc as well as the the teaching

01:10:24

Spiritual nourishment as why the people actually left, but I want to know Scott's position well, basically essentially, that's the

01:10:34

What led us to this actual debate? It was right. I when I had said there was a person in my channel who said that they were

01:10:42

Wanted me to read White's books and I made the statement that that has white have been proven wrong so many times it isn't funny and then that quote got back to James and He came and talked to me and here we are so But the context of what this other person and I were talking about Was actually that part of John that we're kind of skipping here.

01:11:04

So Hey, we're all working folks here.

01:11:13

Yeah, we understand though. I'll just let it ring. I'll still call back if it's important anyway

01:11:20

Yeah, but try concert try concentrating with that going is what yeah, I'm turning it off right now Okay.

01:11:26

Um, where were we? Okay, John six the The people that was the topic of discussion was the people left over Jesus teaching you must eat my flesh and drink my blood or you have no wife in you and they argued over this

01:11:40

How can this man give us his flesh to eat and after that point was when many of his disciples there?

01:11:46

I mean, these were people that you know You might even say they were called they had come they were drawn to Christ, but they left him

01:11:55

Because they couldn't handle the teaching they couldn't handle the literal word when he was saying eat my flesh drink my blood they left well

01:12:02

Scott if I could comment, I think the Any reading of the text will contradict you there because this is actually to say that they were called in point of fact

01:12:13

Jesus entire discussion of the calling is an explanation of why they would not believe he specifically says in at the beginning as I read

01:12:22

There are some of you who do not believe and then right be in John 6 43 They start grumbling and he explains why they're grumbling because unless they're called unless they're drawn by the fire

01:12:31

They cannot come to him and then beginning in verse 62 He says what then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before it is the spirit who gives life the flesh

01:12:40

Prophets nothing the words that I have spoken to you are spirit in our life But there are some of you who do not believe and what with those words those words

01:12:49

Are the part in your chapter that you skipped over that talk about eat my flesh drink my blood or you have no life

01:12:55

Well, actually to say I skipped over it is I think a little bit unfair, especially in light of the fact

01:13:00

That I have a full discussion of those verses in both the fatal flaw in the

01:13:07

Roman Catholic controversy and secondly in my book I'm responding to the Norman Geisler in the subject of predestination election.

01:13:13

I'm not responding to Roman Catholicism So it would be silly to insert a discussion of what

01:13:18

I believe is the misinterpretation of this passage the the ripping of it out Of its context by Roman Catholicism in responding to Norman Geisler.

01:13:25

Well fair enough, but I mean That part of it. I don't know the background of what led you to this this particular piece in Of that particular piece.

01:13:34

I've only got that one chapter, right? I and I understand but my point is my point is that Jesus specifically says in verse 64

01:13:41

There are some of you who do not believe for Jesus knew from the beginning Who they were who did not believe and who it was who would betray him

01:13:48

So these are not drawn. These are not men drawn by the father to the son These are into well You would say it was but he's explaining in the passage their unbelief and then verse 65 says and he was saying

01:14:00

Imperfect tense the verb something go on going for this reason I have said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted him from the father as a

01:14:09

Result of this. Well, let's just go on to this other point though in within the same context

01:14:14

Jesus then turns to the twelve now Yeah, I would assume you agree that these are part of the the called the drawn the elect right and he turns to them

01:14:22

He says will you also leave right? He's a choice. No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait This is where this is where again

01:14:31

Scott we do have to allow the scripture to We have to look at what it actually says when

01:14:40

Jesus Asks the question of them So Jesus said to the twelve and then listen to what the

01:14:46

New American Standard says you do not want to go away Also, do you? there is a way in the

01:14:53

Greek language of expressing a question that Expects a negative answer and that's the form that Jesus uses here

01:15:02

It may expect the answer but it gives them the opportunity and notice what Simon Peter says

01:15:08

Lord to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life now, right, you know,

01:15:13

Matthew 16 very well Just like I do how does Peter receive his understanding of such things by revelation from the father?

01:15:22

The only reason that these are not scandalized is because they are those who are given by the father

01:15:29

They're drawn by the father to the son and the son will not fail to raise them up. There is a very consistent

01:15:36

Understanding throughout John 6 that simply does not allow for this idea

01:15:42

That the father can try to save and the son can try to save and the spirit can try to save But the ultimate authority in the issue of salvation is the dead

01:15:53

Sinner who is described in Scripture as the enemy of God who is incapable of anything good in of himself

01:16:00

It's just not there. You have to read that in from another source and Scott. It's not the Bible It is your interpretation of text that has been provided to you.

01:16:09

I would assert by the teaching magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church Well part of that I'd have to agree with I accept the teaching magisterium of the church because I believe that Jesus Empowered men to lead and rule and guide his church and he said that he promised that his

01:16:26

Holy Spirit would be with that church and And that church would be the pillar and foundation of all truth

01:16:32

But did that church if we go on this basic statement that Yes, I believe in the magisterium of the church because I believe

01:16:40

Jesus created the magisterium of the church and he empowered men to be in charge of his church and Provided the means that they would be free from error in anything that was doctrinal in nature

01:16:51

Well, what about men who claim to be leaders of that church who don't even know that Jesus used the form of the question?

01:16:59

In John 667 that requires a negative answer Why should I believe for example the dogmatic teachings of men who are ignorant of the text of Scripture?

01:17:11

I doubt that very many Of the quote -unquote church fathers or prelates for example at the fourth

01:17:19

Lateran Council knew enough Greek to know what John 667 said so I guess the question is since John 667 is

01:17:27

In point of fact they Anustos it is the very breathed -out Word of God Why should

01:17:33

I have what is indicated so clearly in that text taken away from me by what someone said?

01:17:41

1215 years later Because you have to have your your trust and your authority in something and I mean

01:17:49

You can't even know that that book that you call the Bible is The inspired Word of God without the church thing in in the late 4th century

01:17:58

Canon they you know declared the canon there and in not until Trent was it actually Canonized as dogma that this is the book but so up until then nobody knew that this was true

01:18:09

No, I'm saying you that in prior to Trent You had the Council of Carthage and Hippo that had declared the canon and no

01:18:18

Catholic version of the Bible ever came out Without that it did not match those canons really, so just but I would love to pursue that because I'd like to talk about how

01:18:28

Gregory the Great rejected the Apocryphal books and and people all that time council Well if he himself as as the

01:18:37

Bishop of Rome Said that these were not canonical. I think it definitely present problem to you, but my point is up until 1546

01:18:47

When the Council of Trent Dogmatically defined because you certainly know Hippo and Carthage were not infallible councils because they were only local councils

01:18:57

They were not ecumenical councils up until that point Did anyone know?

01:19:04

With any sense of certainty That when Jesus and John 6 67 says make

01:19:10

I who my Stella to who Pagan? You do not want to go away also Do you are you saying that until 1546 one could not know with any certainty that that form of the

01:19:21

Greek? Indicates a negative answer is expected. I believe it. You know you're saying it's like a sarcastic question

01:19:27

I believe yes He turns to his apostles and says that but he does give them the option if there is a potential that they can leave

01:19:34

And you know and back to the you know, but but racing us on tradition, you know

01:19:39

But the 90 % of all Christians even I would say, you know throughout history Could not read there would they have they relied on the tradition

01:19:48

They relied on the church to present them with the with the gospel because they couldn't read it well again, my point is you said you've got to believe in something and You said that you believe in the church and my point is how can you test the church?

01:20:03

You said that I'm dependent upon your church for knowledge of this book of Scripture I totally reject that and I would point out that you really can't

01:20:12

Substantiate that because as soon as you say well your knowledge that John 667 is the Word of God is dependent upon the church

01:20:18

I immediately then ask you well How do then you know with some infallible certainty that Rome is the final authority and has the authority to?

01:20:27

Determine that and the only way you can answer that is to go into various and sundry scriptural arguments or historical arguments

01:20:34

All of which mirror and parallel any arguments I'd use for the canon and in point of fact are more difficult to prove than any

01:20:42

Arguments I would use in regards to the certainty that I have a canonicity I don't know how you could say that because prior to You know the

01:20:50

Reformation I like to call it the innovation in the in the 16th century There was nobody like you there were maybe pockets here and there but there was no

01:21:01

Movement there was no church that believed As you do Scott was there anyone the

01:21:07

Council of Nicaea? Who believed as you do yes, okay? Name me one person who believed in the bodily assumption of Mary who was the

01:21:13

Council of Nicaea that's not mentioned at the Council So how can I how about the Immaculate Conception is it mentioned?

01:21:20

No, okay? So you're asking me to prove a point from from From prove a negative.

01:21:27

I can't prove that it somebody said something that wasn't said Athanasius at the Council of Nicaea, right Yes, he wrote many many books right did he ever express a belief in?

01:21:40

Transubstantiation in the Immaculate Conception and the bodily assumption of Mary I'm not familiar with all his works has he ever rejected any of those things well since no one ever

01:21:50

Discussed any of those things They don't have them in front of me, but I've seen ancient hymns that you know speak of Mary's purity

01:21:59

Mary's You know immaculate you know Mary and all this so forth. Oh, yes Way back into the you know that's quite true

01:22:07

Scott But you also know that Thomas Aquinas specifically rejected the modern form the doctrine of the

01:22:12

Immaculate Conception, right? So to go before Aquinas and to say that the use of the term immaculate in a hymn

01:22:20

Indicates they believed something like that is I think grossly anachronistic my point is

01:22:25

Scott that I think I'm very very fair and in fact I could point you to many Roman Catholic theologians and historians

01:22:31

Which is why for example someone like Dave Armstrong would follow Newman's development hypothesis They will all tell you the same thing that there was no one at the

01:22:40

Council of Nicaea who believed what you believe Because they recognize that if you're going to say that the the first He's talking about birth control.

01:22:50

Do they talk about abortion in those councils for those wrongs that are that are definitely defined by the church You're you're you're missing the point

01:22:56

Scott Because it wasn't discussed it has to be your side of the story

01:23:02

No What I'm saying is you cannot demonstrate the positive existence of a dogma at that time because no one even mentions it

01:23:11

Are you telling me that in all the things Athanasius wrote in all the things Augustine wrote that they believe this is a dogma?

01:23:17

But somehow for 500 years minimally no one ever put pen to paper to ever discuss it

01:23:24

It's not a matter of whether they put pen to paper to discuss it as a matter if the church defining it as a dog

01:23:30

Dogma it didn't happen until a major dispute arose over it and was causing a heretical schism in the church

01:23:38

That's when the church would come out and say hold it. Wait a minute. You know this thing That's what Nicaea was about as far as that goes is about the

01:23:45

Trinity So all the time and the Trinity was not defined at that point in time Well, actually the church had to come out and say wait a minute

01:23:51

This is the Trinity if you don't accept it You're no longer Catholic actually Scott the Council of Nicaea didn't say him of the train

01:23:56

It's talked about the deity of Christ But there were references all through the fathers before then to that belief all the way back to Ignatius You are you saying that Ludwig Ott is in error to admit that the very first reference in Anything to the bodily assumption of Mary is in AD 495 when

01:24:15

Pope Galatias condemns as heretical the transitive Beate Maria literature that is the first place in all of recorded history that ever record this belief

01:24:27

Are you saying Ludwig Ott or? Michael O 'Carroll That these people are

01:24:32

Roman Catholics and they are in error to make these assertion Before we go to that point look back.

01:24:38

What is he refuting? He's refuting a work on Mary. So obviously that work had to exist prior

01:24:45

Yeah, and he said that it was from heretics. Well, but it existed prior but not amongst

01:24:51

Christians got that's the whole point You can't point to someone who believed like you did. Hey, it is believe it or not

01:24:57

It is a 329 12 and 90 minutes have passed by and I would like to thank you

01:25:03

Scott for being on I hope that it was Useful to you and what's that email address again?

01:25:10

My email address? Yes, big Scott at a number two

01:25:15

Letter Z org. So it's big Scott at a to Z org. Okay, and folks want to get hold of you

01:25:20

They can do so there. Thanks for being my guest today. Thanks for having the dialogue with me and We will probably maybe who knows maybe we'll get a chance to do it again in the future.

01:25:29

Thanks for being with us All right. Thanks you for listening to the dividing line today. My name is

01:25:34

James white next week We'll be back and we'll be continuing to talk about those things that are important to those of you who believe the