Responding to The Remanent Radio on Cessationism

Mr. Smalley, do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy I'm glad I'm debating him instead of you

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries

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Mr. Drew von Nida. How are you, sir? I'm doing well I just ate dinner. The kids just went to bed and You know, so full belly silent house.

I'm doing pretty well doing pretty and you haven't left the kitchen. We see so that's good The kitchen is the new family room is what they say and we spend a lot of time in the kitchen

Mostly trying to keep the kids from trying to get all the hot stuff or all the sharp things

Yeah, so we definitely have to be in here Yeah, I'm not buying it. I actually believe what you're doing is

I'm waiting for round two for dinner. All right Like well my oh, no, there it is.

I could yeah, I could just go grab it I was like, I thought she put it away because she started cleaning out the dish.

But yeah, it's it's it's sort of close All right, so tonight on the docket two subjects originally we were going to just talk about Well the remnant radio and some arguments that they make against the cessationist position

We're gonna evaluate them and why are we doing that? Well a very simple reason The guys that remnant radio said that they were open to debating someone on the issue of cessationism

I raised my hand. I said here I am. We sent them messages and You want to know what we have heard so far from them

Yet we've we've heard we've heard crickets Sort of like this

Yeah, there's the crickets so Yeah, they haven't responded. So what we figured we would do is we would just respond to There were things they've said about our views on social media

So that's gonna be a major thing or not social media But on their podcast about what we believe now until they finally get sick and tired and they go.

All right, finally Andrew Yes, you can come Well, I'd rather have the discussion rather than two monologues, right, but this is the thing

There's a lot of people that say oh, I'll debate you but I prefer having a monologue We just had that actually on my social media guy

Who's who just was he basically was just slamming the position we had on my position on on cessationism

Blasting me saying how wrong I am and how I don't understand the Bible bubble bubble bubble bubble and I said well You're gonna come on to apologetics live and discuss it

I'm not gonna have to do it. Okay, then you're any I told him I said anything you post after this will be deleted

Because you only want a monologue he'd write these really long posts and then not obviously read what

I say because he just Responds with something completely different. I'm like, okay, I answer your question you ignore it and go on so I just said, all right well

You know, we'll deal with this by just you either come on or you know

And we will I'm not gonna let you have a monologue on my wall Right, right and you you see we at least our audience.

I know has seen that on this show throughout the years Which is which is why you try to have kind of some moderation

Because when you get people who are what's the guy's name pastor? What was his name pastor something the the

COC guy? Oh Yeah Would come on and then he would just talk and talk and talk and it would be it

Justin Pierce would have to go Hold on. Hold on. You said a lot there. We've let you talk. Let Andrew respond

Yeah Yes, yeah, so you you you you uh highlighted a comment there

Mm -hmm. I did. Oh you want me to put it up because I highlighted it I will Scott zero zero two zero says not surprised speaking about the remnant radio guys

Not mentioning not responding to Andrew. They want soft targets But I am a soft target.

You're pretty soft target. I'm a big softy. I'm not mean So we get to that before we get to you.

Yeah We get to the remnant radio One of the things that we got asked to address was the issue of Alistair Begg So we will start with that.

But before we start with that, we got a special guest backstage Yeah, but only one matters, okay

They're kind of like theology matters Or everything's a matter of theology. Yeah matter of the but the other is just a voice that we just you know

What's the voice? I like to say, you know, he's a good voice of reason is what I like to say

I think he would disagree with that. I think he would say that God's the voice reason I think he's gonna correct you, but we will see

Okay, so so Scott asks this question Would you debate Michael Brown on this

Scott or it's coming happen? Yeah, Michael Brown. Here's the difference with Michael Brown Michael Brown said he would be willing to debate someone who is involved with helping the the cessationist film and I said

I'll do it and he said sure and we've been communicating have I have not he was headed to India before the end of the year and we were supposed to talk afterwards and I I've been busy.

I think I'm sure he's been busy. So we haven't gotten a chance But we haven't talked with him a couple of times though Haven't you only since only since he asked for the debate?

I've never I actually okay I told him this but I think that I saw him in an airport

I was in an airport in I think it was Philadelphia and I'm like boy that guy looks like Michael Brown And I really didn't know much about him and that was you know

And I didn't I should have just walked up and said hello, but I didn't Anyway, the special guest we have

I actually reached out to Brother, or I should correct that pastor Austin Because he's got a conference coming up and that conference is right in line with what we're talking about tonight

So let me bring in pastor Austin Higgins. He is from first love ministries

I'm gonna let you pastor talk about both both your church your ministry who you are get let the audience know a little bit about You and I want folks to know about the conference that you're doing.

I Appreciate that Andrew first off You know, thanks for reaching out to us here and offering the opportunity to be able to talk about The upcoming conference on the

Holy Spirit. I really do appreciate that Um Yeah, just so a little bit of background of who

I am. I'm Austin Huggins By God's grace. I have the privilege of serving the dear saints at First Baptist Church, Baghdad as pastor one of two co -elders in the

Lord's kindness and Providence the church that I Lord allowed me to plant for about six and a half years ago

We were using the building here at First Baptist Church, Baghdad and they extended an invitation to us to merge and to become one church about a year and a half ago and We were thankful to accept that invitation which has also began a

Something of a reformation, you know, we they were already moving in a more reformed direction and We brought the 1689

With us in into that and so it's been a very sweet time The Lord's been pleased to add a number of brothers and sisters that are hungry for sound doctrine a hundred hungry for truth

For those who don't know a little bit of this area. We're in Santa Rosa County So we're in in the panhandle of Florida, you know famously known as lower,

Alabama But the county is quite large and it goes, you know from the Gulf Coast to Mexico which culturally you have more probably

But northern atmosphere you have the beach community. You have a lot of atheism. There's a lot of witchcraft and Wiccanism.

That's you know coming up and Appreciate you Scott Scott for folks who are listening and not seeing

Scott said nice bookshelf, sir So But at the same time that that kind of passive Atheistic could care less beach mentality

But it's right up against the Bible Belt for the rest of the county which goes all the way up to the the state boundary of Alabama And in this this big

County you maybe have even though there's a church every 200 feet of every flavor

You know predominantly SBC independent Baptist charismatics of all shapes and sizes. All the cults are here

You know Mormon show of his witnesses Roman Catholicism the like there are probably only maybe four

Reformed or leaning reformed churches in the entire county and they are not very large

And so we have quite a responsibility in front of us to be able to wisely articulate the doctrine of our forefathers and of the scripture to be able to defend sound doctrine in a land where you know

Arminian ism and pragmatism has pretty much ruled the day for you know, the better part of 50 -60 years and to be able to shed a light in a bit of a dark place for one

County over from our dear friends at Chapel Library and Mount Zion Bible Church, we're very thankful for their friendship and partnership and those guys and so And all the other pastors locally that we get to labor with and really the upcoming conference that we're doing this year

This will be our second annual conference is in part aimed to address the lack of doctrinal clarity and the lack of doctrinal solidity on an array of Serious issues the first year we dealt with the doctrine of regeneration because in a sea of pragmatism and you know sinners prayer and altar calls and every other thing there was

No reality as to the supernatural Reality of what the new birth even is what it means to be regenerate what it means to be born from above But what it means to be made a new creature in Jesus Christ So we dealt with that and that was really an answer to my prayers because I mean this is my hometown area

And for all the mission work first love has the privilege to do both locally and abroad

And in particular in a number of areas that we labor in One of which I am very actively involved in which is

Nigeria And I get to go a couple times a year there and I'll be headed back in June.

So keep me in prayer I'm able to see a lot of these resources go and there's some really critical areas in the world

Host a lot of conferences be a part of you know Live radio shows where we push back against false doctrine in in some major cities like Lagos, you know 22 million some odd people within within earshot and see the good that comes by standing up opening your mouth and Articulating even difficult things and being willing to take the shots answer the hard questions

Show them from the Word of God where the things are contained where these things are written and and give every man an answer and give

A defense and a reason of the hope that is in us with meekness and fear to testify Boldly and graciously of the truth that is found in the

Word of God and to push back against you know So much what the culture throws at us nonsensically just whether it's grabbing from its own

Traditions or it's grabbing from what it saw some, you know, heretic pastor on YouTube putting out My desire was to see that same kind of I don't know what to call it

Maybe concentrated firepower, you know here locally on the ground in my backyard You know, there was a night where I remember after being, you know a pastor in this context for years

You know, I I wept and I got on my knees and I said Lord Don't allow me to Step over my own backyard

To bring the gospel to these regions all over the world and not have fruit and not have a harvest right here

You know, there were years of struggle, you know, because you're you're You're on the the defense so often and so You know the tides seem to slowly be changing a little bit and it's been exciting to see

You know to have all the first love guys, you know kind of descend in this little town in in Milton, Florida And in an even smaller historical village inside Milton called

Baghdad and it's always a real treat to the African brethren whenever they hear pastor Austen's from Baghdad, but different Baghdad but To have all the guys here.

We're having some of our foreign branch leaders fly in From Nigeria pastor maroon keep wet is coming in from Kenya.

We have our guys from Nepal and India coming in We have dr. Dal core coming from California pastor

Joe Jackowitz pastor Paul Nelson We have other men coming in for our breakout session

So it's going to be a really good time and the theme this year We are going to be dealing with which is literally point number two

If number one was regeneration number two, we're gonna be dealing with the person and the work of the

Holy Spirit Dealing with who he is as the the third person of the

Trinity dealing with all his work all that he is Scripturally we see responsible for and pushing back on an offensive way and answering a lot of the hard questions

We'll open up with Q &A panels. We'll have number of breakout sessions people will have an opportunity to come

And ask questions. The registration is free. That's kind of first loves mo

We don't we don't charge anything for our books if they go to first love ministries Org and order a book we send it to them postage paid for free every month

You can go back and order a new book. The conferences are free So if you register for the conference, the conference is free.

We will be providing literature Chapel library is partnering with us They will be providing literature and we've got a couple other ministries that should be doing the same

So it should be a real sweet time to fellowship with like -minded brothers and sisters in the faith from several counties around us

We have already a lot of people registered from out -of -state that are coming in too, so we're really looking forward to it so How can how can folks register for your conference?

Yeah, I appreciate that. So if they go to first love ministries Dot -org and I want to be very specific because there's a first love ministries calm

There's a first love missions org and they all go to some kind of strange wackadoodle places

But if you go to first love ministries Dot -org as soon as you get there on the main page, just scroll down a little bit

There's a conference flyer with dates February 23rd 24th 25th if you click the more info or the registration button that'll take you right where you need to go

Registration will take you to register Info will bring up the schedule all the speakers all the subjects that we'll be covering as well as another opportunity to find the registration button and So first love folks, if you're not familiar with first love ministries,

I encourage you to go there check it out. That's awesome We should talk. We'll talk offline I tell you how to get a dot

Bible domain so that you could just say go to first love dot Bible and Like we have we have if you go to SFE dot

Bible you it's a shorter way to get to striving for eternity Org, we just forward that over.

So yeah Yeah I just went to first love ministries and looking at the publications

Some of them are out of stock. Okay, they look pretty interesting reads. I Appreciate well, you know what people have found out about us

So if it's out of stock, it's because people went and ordered it and drain supplies. And so we're reprinting

I mean, you know a lot of a lot of good Names on here EM bounds

JC Ryle just scrolling through some of the ones I've seen so it looks like really really solid works now, are they more like Are they summary?

Like pamphlet like publications that kind of easy to read or digest or it's the full book So it's the full book

There's a few cases where we took a book and we updated the language a little bit some of the older works

Because we have you know, a W pink sovereignty of God Union and communion by Hudson Taylor We got the works by inbounds

JC Ryle's holiness, you know We have some of the classics in there wherever it was helpful to update some of the language

We did that but it is the full book. We have the complete works of the inbounds on prayer We have a prayerful and powerful pulpits, you know, we have there are some booklets in there

But by and large most of our library is large books And and drew they even have what do they believe in?

What do we believe from Andrew Rapport? Oh, wait. No. No. Oh, who's it? Who's it?

Hey, mr. Jackowitz, just You know, that's okay because then they can just they can just come to apologetics live on Thursday nights to hear what we believe

This is this is a little you know inside humor with pastor Austin and I because you know his boss there at first love is also a

Jewish believer and understands what Jewish guilt is and we were going back and forth about The fact I've been trying to get pastor

Austin to act as a Jewish individual to provide some Jewish guilt to his boss on my behalf and I'm an honorary 2 % so I I have the the software to do it

There we go, so so I mean I If it wasn't for the fact that I will be at the open -air theology conference at the same time

But I mean just folks if you're wondering well, you know a conference in Florida in February if you live say

North of Virginia Just saying Florida's pretty nice in February Inviting and calling all snowbirds all snow

So go to first love ministries org check out the conference

You know, I mean this is just knowing the guys involved in it

I I know that you know, it's gonna be a good conference. It just so I know some of the speakers personally excellent excellent men and so Alright, so Joe is asking this question.

He says can someone explain cessation ism? Is that like a new name? Actually, no, it's it's not

Joe. It's So and we're gonna try to give a positive Answer to what cessation ism is tonight, and I'm sure that that's probably gonna come up in in pastor

Austin's conference, but It's not exactly new But it is what do

I mean by that? Before about the earth the late 1800s early 1900s

The issue of the continuation of gifts or the cessation of those gifts was not an issue really

But after what happened in really really what triggered it was the 1905

Azusa Street Mission that occurred now, there's it started before that Actually truthfully some of this stuff started really in Mormonism and in the 1800s that bled over into Into I want to say

Christianity, but a form of Christianity and so Watchtower to it started some in there as well.

Yeah get into Judge Rutherford and Prophecies because Yeah, yeah

Mormonism was the 1800s and so so what you see is you started to see a what they would call a revival of People having the gifts of the spirit that really we hadn't seen

Commonly or normatively being the gift of speaking in languages what they would call tongues the the gift of healing

Prophecy and things like that and as that became more I want to say mainstream

The response became Looking at scripture. No, these things have ceased and so Joe when we say cessationism

It is the idea of that. The gifts have ceased they stopped.

So The idea is is that this is a doctrine That was developed in Response to a doctrine that started developing and this is what we're gonna find with theology.

This is very common in theology Why how do we get the doctrine of the Trinity? Because it was a response to Arianism Claiming that Jesus wasn't

God because God's only one and and in response to that heresy you have a theological doctrine that becomes formed and Now I'm not saying that Believing the gifts continuous heresy okay, so let me be clear about that, but The doctrine of cessationism is a response to that That that started up just like people say well creationism is a new word

We first see it in the seven -day Adventist Which is really kind of funny because the founder of the seven -day Adventist Ellen G white believed in evolution

But the atheists will always be see you use it started in seven -day Adventism and you guys would say they're a cult and I don't

Some I would say as a cult some not but that aside The reason it started was because evolution was being taught and as evolution started being taught and normative

The response was to the formulation of a new doctrine. Yes. It was first mentioned within Seven -day

Adventism, but the doctrine of creation was a response to the error of evolution and so the doctrine of cessation ism is a doctrine that was brought out from what

I would refer to as the error of the Continuationism and so it's it is a new name, but not a new thought

I don't think it's a new thought because as we'll talk about later I will find it in Scripture in 1st Corinthians chapter 13

So yeah, I like that. You know what else came out of the 1800s Dispensationalism, but that's another topic for another day.

What's a good thing that you don't know your history because Actually, it was 1900s that we see that formulated in response to the error of reformed

Noah See The reformers stopped reforming and the dispensationalists continued reforming reformed and What stop performing?

Is that the motto? No, I don't know. I think you're starting to get into the weeds there

Dispensationalism in that way Yeah, well, I Think you know who

I think is talking about that tonight. I think Keith Foskey Yeah, yes because he decided hey, let's have a debate

Do that at Thursday night at 830 now Okay So I couldn't tell

I could because remember I posted under his when I posted under a comment under the post he made

And when he responded I couldn't tell if he genuinely felt bad or if he was being goofy

No, no I think he I think When I when I when you post it and then I said I was gonna talk about it tonight

I think he felt bad like oh, no I wasn't doing on purpose and and that wasn't the thing and so hold hold that one because we got to get back to that And pastor

Austin you are welcome to stay. I don't know your time frame, but we're gonna we're gonna talk about it, you know

Alistair Begg We're gonna talk about we're gonna talk about some some arguments made

Responding to cessationist arguments. So you're welcome to stay But Yeah, go ahead yeah, no,

I appreciate that and I probably will I Step out. I've got my family in the other room.

Yeah, Andrew I genuinely appreciate having you on have allowing me to be on the show with you striving for eternity and apologetics life

I pray the Lord continues to bless the work your ministry and I again, I greatly appreciate it.

Lord bless you dear brother Yeah, and Lord bless you first love and everybody there except that guy at the top

Well, is this recorded oh, yeah, you just you just have to hey Hey, you know

Andrews wants a blessing for everybody at first love except you

Joe Okay, cuz you blow him off Well since it's recorded. I'll be sure to share it with our dear brother

I'm with a record though. I actually love I love Joe Brother, he absolutely he's he is a he's just great to be around but don't let him know

I said that. Okay. Yeah I mean it's recorded so he'll know but Keep him in prayer.

The man has survived multiple pulmonary embolisms leukemia cancers Bad a heart issue that just came around but in God's providence the

Lord's kept that man alive to continue to do the work We'll talk about Then It's that I said talk about a work of the

Holy Spirit then, you know Amen, dear brother. And and if I could just throw one last tag on on that note because drew made a statement

I really appreciate You know we're gonna have aspects of the conference that do deal with the negative like what you're talking about Andrew where we deal with the issue of cessationism and defend against some of those heresies and that of Necessity requires us to take kind of a negative tone of what the

Holy Spirit is not to doing But one of the things that we as we talked in leadership talk

We wanted to be very clear about was in positive affirmations What does the

Holy Spirit do because there are other people on the other side of the lane? But I don't know how you categorize them maybe hyper cessationist or something of the like where they think you know, the

Holy Spirit is completely No longer at work Operationally in the life of Saints that there's no indwelling power of the

Holy Spirit conforming us into the image of Christ giving us holy ambitions holy desires giving us unction and preaching empowering us for the work of the ministry and Revealing truth to us that is found in the

Word of God in illuminating the text to our hearts and minds and so our goal really is to give the

Saints of God a big view and a wide view of All that the scripture is clear that the

Holy Spirit is doing in the lives of his Saints today And this is one of our greatest inheritances that belongs that we are not striving for eternity in our flesh

We are striving for eternity by the enablement of the Spirit that dwells within us and by the empowerment of him who raised

Christ from the dead and he's given us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, so I Want the

Saints of God have a big view of that You know, and this is the thing folks again first love ministries org the reason this conference is important is because You know realistically what you saw in response in the early 1900s was many many of the fundamentalist churches which is my my kind of Christian background be the

Fundamentals Baptist and and yet many of them just in in response to the charismatic movement

Decided to just ignore the Holy Spirit and and they're really if you think about it There has not been much written on the on the personal

Holy Spirit now You see some, you know, maybe chapters in a larger book

But I mean like Ryrie wrote about the book on the on the Holy Spirit But how many books are devoted to the person and work of the

Holy Spirit? There's not many You know since the begin since the 1900s when the charismatic movement started

They a lot of Christianity just kind of abandon it put it aside That's why this conference at first love ministries is doing is is really helpful to say.

Hey, let's have a Positive view lift up the Holy Spirit of who he is what he does what his ministry is

Let's stop ignoring the third person of the Trinity. Amen Yeah, you know we can be highly, you know as one preacher said before we can be highly reactionary and the pendulum can swing so Far away from the very real error from the very real abuses

I mean the things that are being peddled out of the especially the extreme forms of charismaticism are utterly

Appalling and disgusting the NIR movement I have to deal a lot with what spews out of the mouth of men like Kenneth Copeland men like Benny Hinn and all these cats it gets on the ground in Africa it amalgamates with African traditional religion and Which would amount essentially to to voodoo and animism and when that stuff hits the ground it creates

Some of the most noxious fumes you could possibly imagine some of the wealthiest riches richest pastors quote -unquote in the world are

Nigerians who are raking some of the poorest people in the world for funds and they're doing it in the name of the

Christ of The Bible though. They don't know him at all and so in light of that reality of Disgusting abuse the pendulum can swing the other way and we can be very guilty of abject neglect

And so it's in light of that neglect. We want to bring the pendulum not to anyone extreme We want to put its center in the narrow way of Scripture and just you know, one other statement

Are you familiar with that Ian Murray's revival and revivalism? which really dealt with True biblical revival

Versus that kind of independent fundamentalist revivalism the tent meeting revival that kind of took over Where we thought we could get the

Holy Spirit on our schedule and pencil him in on Friday night You know, well, he did a real good job at showing

What a true move of the Spirit was not His book after that called

Pentecost today the biblical basis for understanding revival. I think is an excellent book I'm working on it right now kind of reading through it

You're saying there's not many books out there but if you want a big view of the reality of what the

Spirit of God is Able to do willing to do and may do in our day the likes of which

Whitfield and Wesley saw in their days I think that's a tremendous book that I think your listeners would probably enjoy reading

You know You mentioned those pastors in Africa right and and let's put them also with the

NAR Movement and those that's right was quote -unquote pastors in there if you also if you take

Murray's book revival and revivalism Pentecost today, but you also bring in Martin Lloyd -Jones is preaching and preachers

Mm -hmm. One of the things Martin Lloyd -Jones talks about is the difference between a preacher and a pulpit here yeah, and and what a pulpit here is and what he does and how he he he is a master of Manipulation of the crowd to get them to do what he wants them to do.

Yeah. I love you just for saying Martin Lloyd -Jones So, let me

Let me just ask you a question. I came up before you get you take off. This is from our famous Facebook user we see him responding a lot.

We don't actually know who he is because this is Darren You think it's a see it's either Darren or hops that the haps that love to come in here and not give their name

But anyone else if you're if this is someone else you just go to apologetics live comm there's instructions on how to get your name

To show up. You got to just tell Facebook to allow it but Facebook user is asking you pastor Austin will the conference be live streamed or recorded at all?

The short answer is yes All right, and where would they be able it was over the live stream where they're gonna be able to find that willing last year we were able to stream it through both

YouTube and The Sermon audio account. We're gonna take a look at that that this year all the information will continue to be available on that same page

I sent you to earlier, but at a minimum it it'll be being streamed on YouTube Okay All right.

Good. Well, thanks for coming on. We appreciate it and we hope that your conference does well and Look forward to maybe next year now that I know you're doing it on a yearly basis

Maybe next year I can make some time to get down there and sunny, Florida for February Yeah, brother, that'd be a great idea

You got to have a conference during the winter to get all the snowbirds down that The Floridians are inside trying to stay warm and everyone else is coming down in shorts going.

This is great Yeah, it's a bit tactical. I won't lie Well, hey, you might have a competition with all the other conferences in the summer

Look, can't you just see Andrew going up to the pulpit and he's got his shirt his blazer and he's got his cargo shorts on Yet.

No, no, it will never happen. It will happen at a pulpit. Okay, you know, we'll see

Okay, so thank you. No joke this this I actually I might

I have weird dreams But I had a dream That I've had two dreams that both involve

RC sprawl but I had a dream that I was asked to preach at Ligonier and I showed up in shorts and a t -shirt and RC Yeah, no, it gets even worse.

Our speech soul was so upset with me not being properly dressed. He was chasing me with a machine gun

That's the only part of this that's believable Yeah Cuz I was gonna say you being invited to speak at Ligonier, that's definitely yeah

Well, the funny thing is it would have been funnier if he was saying what's wrong with you people while he's chasing me

Yeah, brother if you are able to make it down next year we would be absolutely delighted to have you yeah as well drew

Thank you again so much Andrew for inviting me and having me on the show. Yeah, pray

God's blessings on your dear brother. Thank you very much All right folks as first love ministries org before we get to Alistair Begg I Do want to do a little bit of in the news now some of what we our main topic

We kind of covered with pastor Austin, but it's interesting in the news Let me just you know, maybe

I should just bring in the other guests back here. He is none on another Then the one and the only

Mr. Captain America himself half of the voice of reason radio podcast.

Mr. Chris on hold That is far more interesting in introduction than the guest itself is

Right. I figured I'd bring in because you may have some comments on this I just we do an in the news section because what we want to do is is bring up some things that are in the

News and and address how Christian should you that it's usually a shorter segment We know we did a kind of a longer segment with pastor

Austin, but it I think it was I hope it was well worth it I hope you had a just a view a better view why we should have a high view of the

Holy Spirit Some of you guys know and and I'll just say this if you listen to the rap report podcast

I know that I did not have an episode that came out this week. I am sorry I'll apologize to my audience on the rap rap report.

If you don't listen, what's wrong with you people? Rap with two P's re PP report go search that on On the podcast apps that you have but here's the thing

Dinesh D'Souza had a guy on That was criticizing Beth Moore.

Now. This is a political show, but at the last part of his show, he usually does something Kind of your reviews reads a

Christian book or some but it was really interesting because he was had Beth more on because she was criticizing Christian nationalism and Though the guest was pointing out that so she's criticizing

Christian nationalism, but just of like a Few months before when Trump was doing well, like, you know in the polls

She was saying Christians shouldn't be involved in politics But here's the thing that I really thought interesting because if you listen to the rap report

You know that a few weeks ago. We started a series called. What is a pastor? So why did

I think it was so neat that nets the sujus podcast this week because his guest Speaking about Beth Moore and her views and her being a woman who's preaching

He said that just like Matt Walsh did a show on what is a woman? We need a documentary called what is a pastor and I I feel like going

Dinesh I'm ahead of you because when it's not a documentary, I would love to do a documentary

I actually asked the guys that did the cessationist film. I say hey when we get done with this Can we do a one on what is a pastor and they were like, well, we got some things we're working on Okay, so anyone that does documentaries contact me

I'd love to do that documentary doing a series on that but that is the issue right? What is a pastor?

I just thought that was really neat that they were doing that I Will say this though There's there's

I've been hearing a silence Chris drew I know you probably heard this too remember in the last election

We heard about the mean tweets And I'm doing air quotes, right? Oh all these mean tweets.

That was all you heard about. Do you know the time that? Donald Trump called his opponents

Domestic terrorists you remember that time. Oh, oh, no, you don't okay

How about the time that he said that his opponents are Nazis? Who no,

I don't remember that one either. Oh, I'm sorry. That was Joe Biden That said those things.

Oh, who's mean? I'm just saying so Trump's only mean to people in his own party

They drop out of the race and then they're his best friend Oh Kathy Kathy here is saying yes a very good series on the rap report.

So thank you for that So here was an interesting thing that was in the news there was a to Say there was a same -sex wedding.

That was gonna take place. So Two people of the same gender that wanted to get married.

They rented this barn that would do weddings And so they rented this barn and the owner of the barn realized that it was going to be a same -sex couple and Now we know that legally there's this law that would you know, you can't discriminate.

Okay, he could fight the issue of You know his his views, but here's what this gentleman decided to do.

He decided to write a very nicely worded letter Do the do this these two people?

Letting them know that they have They have the use of the the barn for their wedding but as a

Christian He wanted to let them know that he felt that by God's Word what they were doing was sinful

And so what did they do? Yeah, they cried and now someone offered them a different venue for free and you'd think they'd be happy, but they weren't and they weren't because the thing is is

What we see going on with this whole Transgender movement and all is they do not want us as Christians To disagree that is it's not enough to be silent

They want you to celebrate their perversion now. Here's the thing. That's interesting

Did the guy tell them that they could not use the barn no

Back, he said you're still you still have it but he wanted to share his views and His views made them cry on social media.

They took it to social media to cry to make to get attention for themselves Because he shared his views now.

I'm gonna ask you who is the tolerant one and who's the intolerant one you see?

They will not handle him having his views that disagree with theirs

That is the difference that you see see this gentleman is saying you have your view He's not stopping them or even trying to stop them.

He's just saying I disagree and that's enough to make them cry go to social media and whimper about it and What are they upset with that?

He does not celebrate what they do that he is not bowing down to their superiority in having their views superior to his and yet If we had the same exact view they had we would we would be going to social media saying oh, they're so wrong

Let's cry about it. Let's get attention for self because they won't accept my view You know, you said he wrote this in a letter to them, right?

Yeah a letter or an email Yeah, so so he wrote it in a private correspondence to them and then they what does this movement do?

They turn around and they have to blast everything on social media to the public. Look at me.

I'm the victim Woe is me Right, and it just shows you how soft

That this movement is that you can't say anything to them without offending them without them crying

Well, and when you when you when you think about it, you know first Peter chapter 4 actually addresses this specifically

You know Peter writes since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh arm yourselves with the same in this with the same way of thinking

For whoever suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin So as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh

No longer for human passions, but for the will of God for the time that is Past suffices for doing what the

Gentiles want to do living in sensuality passions drunkenness orgies drinking parties and lawless

Idolatry with respect to this. They are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery and They malign you that's exactly what their sin hardened heart.

It screams. How dare you not only Say what I'm doing is wrong, but you're not part of it.

You're not celebrating it you're not being a Edifying and affirming of this you you have to be and that's exactly what this the sin hardened heart leads them to do

But I love what he says in verse 5 But they will give an account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead

So, you know, they they think they're one -upping us They think that they're able to shut us up and shut us down But they're gonna stand before God one day and so this couple who takes as you said drew

This private correspondence to simply say look you still have it but as the owner I have a right to say something to you so I'm going to and I'm gonna share the gospel with you and I'm gonna tell you that what you're doing is sinful.

They use it in that first Peter 4 Mindset we're going to malign this person because how dare he

Expose our sin and our desperate need for Christ Yeah, and as D says here D says, but he hurt their little feelings

You know and and as as Melissa says the 11th commandment thou shalt be nice That's that's the thing right back to to D D's comment and Melissa's comment right there is that I'm not obligated to care about your feelings.

I'm obligated to give you truth So if I'm obligated to to care about your feelings

That's going to hinder me in Giving you the truth because then I'm going to I'm going to be so concerned about how you respond or how you react or what?

You think of me? well then I just care too much about myself because I want to care too much about you because I care about how you think about Me and your feelings and all of that nonsense

No, I I should be consumed with truth because the truth is what you need not your feelings to be coddled

Yeah, and I'll just put this up and then we'll move to the next section or our show tonight But Melissa says we have freedom of speech just like they do and that's it to forget it.

No They don't think we deserve Realize there is a you know a lot of people are struggling because we're we tend to be thinkers and they tend to be feelers and The lot of people don't understand this when you're a thinker you try to think through issues think of both sides and but they're feeling their way through arguments and Feelings give you the sense of a moral superiority just because you haven't thought about it.

You just feel it's right and if someone Doesn't agree with you That's why they they call it violence and because it hurts their feelings

They actually put it in the same line as violence because their feelings are hurt

But their feelings are everything where when you're thinking through things you can separate your feelings

From that and this is something we see in Scripture And this is so in in James, it would say the first defense against sin is your mind because if Sin can get past the mind it gets to the feelings which is closer to the volition

And so that the biblical way of counseling is you counsel the thinking because if a person thinks right?

They'll feel right and then they'll do right but the way the world does counseling is to tell you to Feel or to just do what's right and if you do right you'll you'll feel better about it and the feeling better will then change

Your thinking and then they can't figure out why people keep coming back to them because they're using the wrong model

And they're they're not using a biblical model But what the model God designed and so they just keep trying to do right and try to get themselves feeling better They never feel better.

So they keep going back to the doctor and paying them more money It's the reason pastors you you know, they give you the counsel for free because they go here's what

God says And you don't have to come back at week after week Well, you know and so Chris can attest it is this as well as being on Twitter Everyone responds to everything

Sorry X Everyone responds to everything with emotion

They will completely disregard everything that you've said and they will respond with emotion and then to go back

What you're talking about with? counseling Last year when Aaron Brewster and I did an episode on biblical counseling.

I Love listening to what Aaron said When he's sitting with someone and they're telling him what's going on.

His response is okay. Is this an appropriate? Response to what's going on?

So the stop the think about it. Is this appropriate and Oftentimes, what's the what's the answer?

No, this is not an appropriate response to what's going on. So I need to reevaluate some things

Well, and we've incentivized emotional response in this culture

You One of my you said it yourself I I know what this is like in trying to and by the way

Christians We are just as guilty of this as anyone else All you have to do is put a semi rational point out and watch everybody attack you because they didn't like you but One of the most frustrating aspects for me is when

I'm on Social media trying to make and I'm not pithy I write really long stuff because I try to I've learned how to build a case

That's what I did for 25 years writing reports was build a case and no matter how balanced You can be there's always that somebody that goes, but you're not and it's like, oh man, you know

You're not they looked at all this went now not gonna address that then go for something else Why because that bothered them and we've incentivized that because the people that get bothered are the ones that get all the attention

The people that get upset and boisterous. They're the ones that get all the likes and the hits and the shares You what we do not incentivize is rational balanced thinking

Anybody who's taken any time even as Christians to write anything out?

That is lengthy and it has you know several points We'll all get very almost crickets in in response

But all you have to do is drop a hot take and and that hot take is Gratifying to the person who drops it because look at all this interaction

I got We we have incentivized emotional thinking and we do not, you know incentivize rational

Biblical thinking and that's that's just part of the problem Yeah, and I was gonna give an example of this because not just on Twitter I'm just I'm looking for it so I could share this with with folks

But you know when when Chris post something there's just so many Just hundreds and hundreds of comments, it's hard to find the one that I was looking for but Well, I'm looking at 300 and some comments, so yes

Okay, and the one comment that I wanted, you know, you've you've made this harder to do here

I'm trying to remember anytime I are you talking about this Chris, right? Yes, so let me let me share

I will present it and So you you posted me Yeah, well, this is what you posted.

I'm you know, don't blame me, but oh, no this picture right here Your exact words on this on this post was

If I can find it look at all these comments You you said oh, no is it must be a different one.

That's why that's why cuz I've never had one that big Yeah, you know, oh this is where's your comments my was the show where I said it looks like fun

Yeah, here we go. Yeah, there it is. It says looks like fun. Oh just seven comments.

No wonder. Okay, so here's yeah So you post something with a with this gun on it and you say looks like fun and look at that first response there

Guns are not supposed to be fun They are all there they are only desirable to killers and evil wicked people that have

Evil intentions you should know that Can you can you read who it was that posted that please?

I'm glad that everybody knew that I was The sad part is is in that 300 comments on the

Smith and Wesson, I would not be shocked if there were people that did Yeah, I'm telling you that is a beautiful I don't have $1 ,300 to spend on it, but that's a beautiful -looking rifle

I Want one of those? so let's get to You know, someone was asking earlier if we did this so Melissa said

Did Andrew talk about Alistair Begg thing yet? No, but we're about to right now.

So let's let's address this. I think that This has been a hot -button issue like all of a sudden now, yeah for the record

This is something that was put out. I think this interview was like a year or so ago

It's back in September. It's back in September the September of 23 or 22 23 is my understanding.

Okay, for some reason I thought it was 22, but okay So not not as far back as as I thought I thought it was more than a year ago

So and I'm just gonna say, you know, we here at apologetics live are part of the

Christian podcast community It's a community of Christian podcasters of which both drew as matter of theology with his co -host

Chris Hough there on on with us along with Chris here with voice reason radio with his co -host

Richard story we all are part of a community of podcasters And it's not a competition so I'm gonna recommend two podcasts for you to listen to that I have been sharing with people saying

I think that this is a good balanced view of This thing of this issue and I'm just gonna true

I'm just gonna mute you until you're ready just because there's there's a for some reason we get a hum from from you

That was the TV in the other room it's trying to it here's so it's hearing the voices and trying to pick up that sound

Okay, got it. So I Think if you listen to the latest voice of reason radio

Podcast where Chris was by himself. He didn't have his co -host. He did an excellent job.

I think of giving a good Balanced view of this. I also want to recommend another podcast and it would be

Nathaniel Jolly's podcast, which is truth be known and he and Eckie Again, just like Chris though Chris beat them to the punch

You know like look you got to be first right right but but so we're third

But I think I will say that because we're gonna do a shorter segment on this

We may not answer all of the issues But I wanted to say that if if we don't cover everything you want to to know about this

Those would be two Podcasts that I will recommend you go listen to their most recent ones

That came out and when I say recent because people are listening on Podcast and it could be months later

We're recording this as of January 25th. And so if you go back

From there you can go to Christian podcast community org and What you'll see is all of the shows so you can go back and find the shows so all right so This this so drew you were the one that said we needed to address this first and then after you and I talked about that We've gotten a number of people afterwards that had contacted me asking me if we would address it

So I'm gonna let you set this up for us yeah, so again, you know, this was sometime back in September of 23 and Alistair was doing his radio program and he was he it started off kind of like he was giving advice and giving an example

But you know, he had someone that was a grandmother who had written in Either emailed in or called in or something left a message, but was looking for advice on what to do because her her grandson was about to Marry a transgender person.

I don't know if this was a a girl trying Transitioning into a boy or a boy transitioning into a girl

And so she was looking for advice on what to do because as a Christian we cannot let me let me say it this way we cannot participate in those events and Really Alistair's position was have you explained?

To your grandson how you feel? Have you told him your beliefs? Does he understand and everything was yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes Okay, then it's okay to go and by the way take a gift yeah I'm sorry, but no

That is and I'm gonna quote one of these podcasts that I heard Chris Han holds where he said that is bad advice

Absolutely bad advice actually post some podcasts. I mentioned said Well, I didn't listen to Nathanael Jolley's but I did

Yet Yet you will so so let's let's

Let's deal with this. So I had several people that reached out to me, you know some people who

Went in Alistair's church some people who have read his books and followed the ministry and all said

I was blessed by him What happened and in this? Here's the thing that I want to say

We do not throw out 40 years of ministry of good ministry over one piece of bad advice

Okay, if you don't think it's bad well then that it's a different issue, right then you don't have a problem with it but the the issue is this and I'm gonna

I may take a different take than my brothers here and so we'll see and But I have two concerns do

I have a concern with the advice Alex their bag gave Yeah, I think there's there's probably would have been better ways of handling that I but I understand his intent

His intent in there was to say hey, look you've already told this grandson that it's sinful

He knows it's wrong. So you shared the gospel. Hopefully, you know, I'm assuming with with your grandson and With that in mind he says they expect you not to show up because That's that's the way they picture it.

So surprise him do the opposite do something to show love and we should be showing love

Right, we should be finding ways that now there's different ways of doing it I'll just say for my own family when my cousin decided she divorced her husband and was gonna

Claim to get married to another woman I love my cousin. I can talk openly with her.

I I feel like talked openly with her her partner there I won't call it a marriage and I told him that they they invited me and they we sat down there and my cousin said

I understand if you don't want to come but I wanted to invite you and and I said look a

Big reason I won't be able to come is not because I don't love you. I care for you

I care where you spend eternity, right? but it's not a marriage a Marriage is defined by God and not the state.

And so when you get up there and say you're getting married It's not that you're trying to make some social contract

What you're really doing is spitting in the face of my lord you're taking what he defined and what he has done and Because you could as this from a state level you could call it anything

They could have same -sex unions and call it that but they don't they call it marriage for a reason

Because the agenda that we have is to trample Everything that God upholds

Yeah, there's one of it. Yeah, there's a couple a couple of things I want to say and then I'll turn it over to Han holds

Well Let me let me get to my second point then real quick. Oh, it'll be this so that's the one aspect

My second point is this I think and and this is where my brothers here may disagree with me or maybe agree

But we'll see. I really think that kovat has changed us. It really has In in some ways very badly

Because what I have seen since kovat is a Christianity that is so much quicker than it used to be used to be quick But now it's so much quicker to criticize any little thing that may even seem

Like someone's going a little bit woke and we're just gonna throw you out completely We are going to cancel you like the left does that we complain about because we don't like what you said and And I really think we as believers

Need to slow up a bit We should not be a canceled culture. We should be if there's heresy, right?

I mean when you have people getting up saying heresy teaching false teachings.

Yes, we separate but Alistair Begg is a brother in Christ. He has been a faithful minister for 40 years

We've that I know of now not I haven't really followed him that much and things like but I have not heard

That he has had any other issues Over the long time of his career

And I know there was a comment. Let me find it real quick here D had said I read today that Alistair Begg was confronted and refused to change his position on what he said in regards to Christians attending a trans wedding and so Okay, does that mean we throw everything out

No, because we all are disagreeing with each other somewhere Okay We have to recognize that Yeah, I don't

I don't think this is an issue that we suddenly say everything he's done has done

We throw to the wolves, you know toss him out. He's gone. He's dead to us but that is how a lot of people are reacting and I I'm gonna say

I think both of those reaction both of those advices would be wrong

So drew what say you? Yeah, so I completely agree. We don't throw out 40 years of faithful Gospel ministry and the thing and just in case you haven't followed

Alistair Begg and picked up on this He is a man who tends to be very gentle when dealing with certain topics

He wants to be cautious. He wants to tread lightly. He wants you to hear his heart.

He wants to be gracious So so he kind of approaches things in a different way that that others probably aren't used to in the

Reformed community Right. He does it his first his first response isn't pick up my sword and shield and immediately start cutting throats

He takes a more gentle approach and I think that's one reason why a lot of us when we hear him same same like a

Sinclair Ferguson right when we hear him who are both Scottish by the way It's not just the you know, maybe it's just the accent

I don't know but but they take a little more gentle approach Which I I think is very when we hear that it kind of draws us to it and it causes us to question

What are my motives? Right. What is my intent? So that's what

I'll say about just about Alistair his his his ministry but To go to kind of some of the things that he said

If they're expecting me not to come if they're going. Oh, well, we expected you not to come because you're a

Christian Okay, that means you understand my conviction about it You may you may think a little of it, but that means somewhere along the lines

I've done a good job in relaying to you my convictions and why I can't support this

Because if I do attend this goes to the second thing I want to say Not it's not so much that I'm I'm telling my grandson

Hey, I I love you and you know, I I can't support this but I do want to show you

I love you What am I testifying to to the other people who are in attendance that also know my conviction?

I'm telling them that I'm affirming this union because they don't know the conversation

I've had with my grandson or whoever and what it what it may be and I've explained to them my conviction

They just know that I'm a believer I don't think this is right, but yet I come and so if I come then

I must be affirming somewhere somewhere I'm gonna start changing is probably their hope. So what am

I saying to the people that are around? In attendance to the wedding as well

Amen Absolutely, and I thought I fully agree with that. Um, I know that when it comes out of spec

There have been some people who have said they've had concerns. I think his involvement with the gospel coalition is one of them

I'll be honest. I How he or Kevin D young or anybody can continue to maintain an association with them mystifies me, but they stay solid

So I'm not gonna do a guilt by association. I'm sorry If you want to fire that missile

Good on you, but I'm not gonna do that. Um But when it comes to this issue

First he put it out there and let me let me just say what I said something earlier I said on social media today.

We all learned about this about five minutes ago Okay, this this happened say back in September.

We all learned about five minutes ago That's why I brought up the time because that's the thing that surprised me like no one had an issue until I Don't know who it is that I think it was protest the that is released.

Yeah. Yeah, and which what's funny is protest He had defended him Defended him against this insane attacks that came against him immediately thereafter.

So but yeah, no, it's a great point We've we've known about this for like five minutes and then everybody's upset.

Well, he's doubled down yeah, you learned that about 30 seconds ago and you know why because American Family Radio Did the right thing and they went and had a conversation with his ministry staff and they said we're really concerned about airing you if This is where your position is and his ministry staff related back this is where he stands and they gave an explanation why

I think they it was a Matter of Christian conscience issue as opposed to a hard and fast rule now,

I would disagree with them But I'm also gonna say that's not the same as doubling down and slamming your fist and saying this is what a

Christian must do That's not the exact same thing, but we learned about that less than five minutes ago

So now we're screaming he's doubled down He's he's clearly knows better and I've had people respond to things

I posted online. Well, I'm done with him He should know better. Yeah, I agree.

He should know better as a minister of the gospel. He should know better You know, it's first Thessalonians 522 that tells us abstain from every form of evil

And I think some translations even say every appearance of evil So we're not to to support that which we know to be sinful goes back to what we learned from first Peter 4

That they get mad at us because we won't support it. So when a Christian says

Do they understand where you're at? Do they understand why do they understand that? This is why you can't support it and you go.

Yes. Yes. Yes, then the answer should be good You've fully explained it now in order to maintain that position you have with this family member

Just keep that bond of love. Let's talk about things that you can do Rather than going to this wedding because I it's exactly what drew said

When I go to a wedding like that, what am I saying to the people there?

I affirm this I support it because I'm agreeing. I think some people ask the valid question when if With the transgender wedding,

I doubt this question gets asked But if anybody has a reason why these two should not be married speak now or forever hold your peace now

I'm gonna guess they're probably not gonna ask that question But if they ask that and you're a

Christian, what do you do? Are you gonna sit there and know and say I'm gonna be silent for the sake of love

I think you would you would be sinning against your own conscience. You would you would have a problem there Yeah, so this is this is hugely problematic

Advice on the part of Alistair Begg and I think he's wrong in this I think he needs to back it up and go.

What did I do? Why did I do this and then reconsider what he needs to do next? But I give him more than 30 seconds before you throw him to the outer darkness.

I think you look what? This could have been just a hey, this is the advice

I gave maybe not well thought through But what do we do we get there's a lot of different ways of dealing with this, right?

I mean like for me for instance, how would I deal with it? I I don't think I would well, I wouldn't go to the wedding, but I think what

I would probably do is you know invite them over my home and Have a meal so that I could share the gospel with them.

Maybe the grandson knows but the partner doesn't and and Express why it's wrong and express

God's view on it express why I mean, this is what I did my cousin I expressed why I couldn't go To their quote -unquote wedding and so she understood why

I wasn't gonna go. He actually knew she kind of expected it up front So there's there's someone backstage that is was asking a question online

His camera is off right now. So I don't know if he's if he's still there, but I could put his question up but Pastor Joe Conkle had had asked this and Joe if you're if you are backstage and there just put your camera on and we'll bring

You in to ask the question, but he says Couldn't the same logic be used to condone begs officiating that wedding and so I'm gonna say this just because I know my two brothers here with me

We're only gonna give you know Like maybe five to ten more minutes on this so we can get to the main topic for the evening

Because we've done a lot of different segments, but so Is it the same thing as condoning a wedding?

I would say no, I would say if you officiate the wedding You're you're definitely affirming it.

I mean you could be in it you could be in attendance of something and yet,

I mean I went to a Friend of mine who had a wedding in a Catholic Church My wife and I sat in the back and when they got up and did the mass

I Purposely did not stand did not move and I sat

Now did I participate in the Catholic wedding? Yeah, but I'm not gonna participate in their

Catholic ritual Okay Is that condoning their ritual?

I didn't think so and and my wife and I discussed whether we were gonna go to the Catholic because it was in a Catholic Church, so we struggled with that.

So I mean this is if we struggle with going to a Catholic say, you know opposites next wedding You know same -sex is gonna be even more issue

But if you're officiating it Joe, I think it's I think you're then You're blessing it and I would

I would think that that is a higher level And I would also add one more thing to that is think about the extent to which

Alistair Begg Made it clear Does your grandson know where you stand and why?

He is making it and then you look at what he has said Consistently about you know sexual immorality as a pastor.

He's clearly stated. These are these are sins so with that said You're not gonna find someone like Alistair Begg condoning the officiating of a a

Sinful union he's not going to do that nor would he counsel someone to do that his specific intent as stated in that Particular interview was for this grandmother to maintain that connection to have that that to demonstrate her love for her grandchild

There that's the point. And so we we've got to be really really careful when we

When we look at what he said and went that's bad advice bad counsel It's not biblical and then it's and it's

I'm not saying Pastor Joe has said this but we have a tendency to do this We've now generalize it and we say well that could be for this and that could be for this and it's like whoa back

Up, there's a context here. I think the context Clarifies it doesn't excuse it

But it clarifies so I would just say let's be careful when we start saying well his argument could be used

No, it couldn't because he's not gonna use that same argument for a pastor to bless to two people in an act of sin

Yeah and and so there's a specific reason I did the segments that I that I did because When you look at what we did in the in the news segment and now we take this, right?

So what do we have? We have a guy who's saying yeah, you can use my building But I'm gonna tell you what that I think it's sinful right now

What was their response their response is you must submit to us you must celebrate what we're doing and That is part of an issue that I think plays into it more than just saying have you shared with your grandson?

That it's wrong. I Would I would definitely one of the questions I would ask someone is

Does your grandson expect you to go? to affirm his behavior

Because that makes a major difference now, yeah now if he's expecting you to celebrate what these doing and you go

That becomes you know in his mind Yes, he knows you say it's wrong But you're affirming them and celebrating it and and that then

I think becomes a different issue now on the flip side I also want to say this Alistair Begg is scheduled to be at Shepherds conference in March and I am watching

Good men who are like they better cancel him. They better remove him. You know, if they don't remove him

They're hypocrites Again we We don't throw out years of good ministry just because he gives bad advice once because guess what?

every person That you know that pastors has given bad advice I'm sure of it

All right myself included I'm sure of it I may not know what it is, but I'm sure of it Okay, so let me go through some of the comments.

We have D said we shouldn't avoid the appearance of evil We have

Kathy who said we each have our own convictions it's not a gospel issue and I agree it's not a gospel issue

But in in here's the thing. Hold on. You've got you've got someone backstage who's waving you off He's gonna say it is a gospel issue hold on Let me respond to it it says

It's not a gospel issue Okay, but in the first century

We see in the scriptures that people held baptism They said if you basically they put baptism almost linked it with salvation

In other words, if you weren't willing to be baptized people questioned your salvation After a couple hundred years, there's persecution coming in the

Romans come in and say give us your Bibles if you don't give us your Bible You know, we're taking you off to prison

And so there you had people who said you're not taking my Bible take me to prison and they take them to prison and they

Take the Bibles anyway and others who said well, you know, you're just gonna throw me in prison and then go take my

Bible Anyway, I might as well give you a book or one of my Bibles or part of my Bible and keep the rest when you know

Constantine says up. We're all Christian and those people who are in jail were freed. You know, what became a watershed issue

Did you? Give up your Bible or not and the people who went to jail because they refused to give up their

Bible Question the salvation of those who didn't go to jail and gave up their

Bible and and said like they're not saved It became a watershed issue. Now. Why am I saying all that?

Because in our day and age This is becoming a watershed issue if You are unwilling to stand strong on what the

Bible says against homosexuality and transgenderism Because they are pushing it on us

They are making this a watershed issue for Christians. So is it a gospel issue?

No But I would say it's a watershed issue that people end up tying so closely to it

Just like baptism and whether you'll give up your Bible. It's become so close to it that It is something that I think is very similar

Looking to a gospel issue and and it's something I and that's why I define it as a watershed issue

I will seriously question any person who says they're a Christian especially at the pastorate level a

Theology theological level that starts to say that homosexuality is okay

I'm gonna have to start questioning that because they should know better Let me just I want to rattle off some of these just to get to him and then

I want to bring Chris Hough in real quick if and it's hard to say for Chris Hough to be quick, but I'm glad he's laughing backstage

Frank says it's not a Ravi Zacharias issue That's true.

It's not But Ravi had bigger issues But it's it's a different issue and again

The Ravi Zacharias issue was different. It was disqualifying But this is becoming a watershed.

And so I do think it's different and I would say do I think that Alistair Begg has gone woke.

No, is he gone off the wrong side of this and you know, he's a bad person. No, I think that We just have to realize that This is an issue that for our generation is

Different than it is in previous generations. All right Hearing that Ravi Zacharias comment

I mean it just seems like there's some category errors when just all over the place like What between what

Alistair Begg said and then throwing in the Ravi Zacharias situation the two aren't even comparable, correct?

Which is what I think he's trying to say, but people are probably Responding in a similar manner as to though.

Well, Ravi was this and we just you know, we've ripped down his ministries Alistair Begg is being treated in the same way and it's like I think that's his point.

These are not the same situation Okay, but but as as D is saying here But this is the first step down a slippery slope and actually what where I think this slippery slope always seems to begin with This is allowing women to preach

But Chris, I'm gonna bring Chris in and he made a good comment in the private chat that maybe he's gonna want to talk to about but a

Watershed issue in the we see in the scripture circumcision Right.

Yeah. Yeah, so I mean it's the same kind of thing. It's the same kind of concept. It's like, you know People would all the time ask and that's that's why

Paul addressed it in Romans chapter 4, you know, so so was Abraham saved Was Abraham granted faith and righteousness?

Before or after he was circumcised and so Paul Paul addresses that in Romans 4

So a couple of things about Robbie or not Robbie. Listen to me like you guys are talking about Robbie I'm like, no, it's not the same thing couple things about Alistair.

Number one. He should not be removed from the chef con preaching schedule I think it would be

Absolute blessing and a treat for everyone in attendance and everyone watching on livestream if you've never heard Alistair preach

Go listen to him preach and I'm sure it's gonna come up in the Q &A I'm sure Yeah, so Q &A around the world

Yeah, so so a couple things. I mean a couple things about this is something else that I heard someone say is, you know

Okay so if you voiced your opinion and I put this in the private chat to you if you voiced your opinion and sorry about my

Voice my throat is killing me If you voiced your opinion to this person this family member and you've let them know that it is a sin against the

Lord and Then I do not support this union. It's not a union It's not you know, the state may recognize it as a marriage, but before the before the

Lord according to the Word of God You are entering into a covenant that he does not recognize And that he abhors and he hates and in turn he hates you

Or for the sin in your life just like he you know apart from Christ hates me and hates the sin in my life and so but in someone

I saw someone in the comments say well, well if you've voiced that and then you go and attend and Could that be a salt situation where they see you and their conscience is pricked and it you know

Kind of kind of rubs that in a little bit more sure it could be But but that also does go against the clear commands of Scripture I think of you know,

Ephesians 5 11 and do not participate in the unfruitful works of darkness But instead even expose them

Paul said in 1st Corinthians 5 To have nothing to do do not associate with sexually immoral people 2nd

Corinthians 614 do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers for what partnership is right have righteousness and lawlessness or what fellowship is like So and and that's that there are multiple other passages of Scripture you can look at and go to but we have to remember too

Like someone said that it's not a gospel issue. Well, no, it's not it's not from a salvific issue

Sure, it's not but what is marriage marriage is to be a picture of the gospel

Marriage is the I can't remember who it was a song I heard years ago marriage is the picture of the story that heaven tells

Right, and so if you're going in attendance and it's just like it's the same concept as you know

Playing Bethel and Hillsong, we don't we don't support their theology, but we're still gonna play these songs Well, you're given that stamp of approval whether you realize it or not.

It's the same kind of concept Yeah, and so by going and doing that it's it's that but then on the flip side right on the flip side

I think of I'm studying Romans right now and this week and reading Romans 13 through 16 and Romans 14 talks about weaknesses and weaknesses and fellow believers and Earlier in Romans and Romans 12 it talks about giving preference to one another out doing one another and good and showing good to one

Another and so you also have to ask the question is, you know For the believers in attendance at this wedding.

Is this an opportunity to grow in sanctification? I mean, so I think overall scripture is pretty clear that we shouldn't

Attend obviously someone mentioned something about about officiating. Absolutely not Yeah, I don't and I have a very good friend of mine.

He was personal friends with Alistair Beck And trust me Alistair's not gone woke

Dee Dee, you know said Dee said this is the first step in the slippery slope sure it could be or it could be an issue of just like hey

I'm just trying to I'm just trying to go above and beyond and Showing love and looking at the example of our

Lord left and and you know Going and eating with tax collectors eating with sinners eating with prostitutes, etc.

So on so forth now again, he's the Lord Jesus Christ We are not that's a narrative not not a not a prescriptive command in Scripture.

We defer to those instead of the narratives You know, but but I think I think here's something else that really bugs the crap out of me

It's just like okay, I understand this about podcast I understand it was released publicly I get that but part of me brothers is so stinking sick of When somebody says something like this that doesn't that goes against the clear commands of Scripture.

I'll give that But not everything has to be tried in the court of public opinion. Thank you.

And that's that's it That I think that's the thing that has bothered me the most now

I'm I want to move to the next segment. I'm just gonna read Because this could be concerning Melissa.

Owen says this not to stir up controversy here but Alistair did allow a woman to be in the pulpit at a

Sunday servant now I so Melissa, I would want to know more context to that because that could be now that could be a different issue like what she just getting up and sharing a testimony or Making an announcement or was she preaching that that would become a big difference

And then if he starts waffling on that like if he waffled on that and now we see this

Then yeah, that could be the slippery slope, right? So that was one of the things that I tried to make a point of on the voice reason radio episode

We could this be an indication of him going a certain direction Possibly but that means giving it time and seeing what happens which is why

I so emphasized We learned about this five minutes ago the doubling down was 30 seconds ago Y 'all need to stop and I'm not gonna argue this with anybody because we've all said what we need to say

Now we need to let time go forward and and it just goes back to what you said Andrew and I think you're absolutely right

I actually don't disagree with you. I when it comes to the issue of kovat it did change us because that was a watershed moment where churches closed some didn't some did and Many Christians went on the attack against one another without giving due credence to the possible reasons why and Now we've got that divide and we have we have yet to go back

So it could be but it's going to take more than five minutes worth of analysis and a week or two of us

Discussing this on our own podcast. Aren't we so great? Talking about the hot -button issue did the week or whatever we need to stop we need to be patient We need to trust the

Lord and if he is indeed going the wrong direction God will reveal it in his time

Okay, so here's the thing. I don't know Andrew We need to move on but like I'm reading through these this quarter the

Christian complete armor the three volume set That came from Alistair's ministry like that. That's where I bought these

Listen to what William Grinnell says in here our love for one another is the Insignia of our allegiance to him if Satan can set us at odds with a brother

He gives us he gives a deep wound to our godliness and to the whole cause of Christ He knows we will hardly join hands in a duty if we cannot join hearts and love

Where is Christ's compassion in the church today? It is evident the lack of this last piece of armor gives

Satan the great advantage in our time We've become penny pinchers with God's mercy for fear

Our charity will be too broad whereas in a biblical sense if it's not as wide as the world

It is too narrow for the command which bids us to do good to all So yeah

And all right, let me just I want to get some of these things really quick after now because we've been using some terms

Melissa's saying what is watershed moment mean? Watershed it is basically like this is a turning point this is a you cannot go beyond this point where they're forcing this to be an issue of Kind of questioning like where it becomes sign of if you are weak on this

We even question whether you're in the in the faith. That's kind of you know, what ends up happening.

Kathy is saying Amen Christians are becoming like sharks Sharks in the water seeing blood and that's that's part of the thing that that that I've been

That I was wanting to address now the last comment and I'm not even gonna pry answer it But these just asking what about the fact that Alistair's on the board of the gospel coalition.

Is that a cause concern? Actually, no because the gospel coalition itself is the cause for concern

Like yeah, it is a cause of concern. Why is Alistair on that board not

The concern is not with Alistair Because the concern is with Alistair being like he should know better to be on the board.

All right, so I Wanted to get to this. So we we want to deal with the remnant radio.

Okay, I have five clips From their first argument. They're making arguments.

Now. Let me I want to preface this by saying I Have never listened to the remnant radio before I have about 60 hours that are downloaded that I started listening to and so I And I will challenge

If they want to critique me at all, I will challenge them to first listen to 60 hours of me before they they critique

That is no simple task The reason being is we got to be we got a

I want to know where their heart is I want to know that I'm not misrepresenting them. Okay, it's easy to grab a clip and Play it or like a valester bag play a clip and then start making all kinds of accusations or conclusions.

I Want to make sure I hear them out before I start, you know, Chris and and if they said yeah

We're willing to debate you I would I mean I would listen to all that I got I have I think 80 hours of Michael Brown Downloaded I haven't started listening to that yet.

I have what his books are like 800 and 400 pages I'm like that that I have

To read through in prep because I want to make sure that I'm properly representing his position

What good is it doing a debate and arguing? It's a straw man. That's not good for the audience.

It's not helpful for anybody So, yeah, I will say this I found them to be refreshing I think that they try to be very balanced

Okay, I I don't agree with their conclusions. We'll go through that. But I I did find it to be

I Seen I there they seem like very likable men that They have their views and I'm gonna show where we just I disagree or we disagree with it

So, let me play this first clip the first clip is where they're going to introduce the first argument

It's 53 seconds long and and then we can address this together

These these postures are hermeneutics So I think it's probably important to start in in telling our audience

That not all cessationists are gonna have the same kind of arguments not all cessationists are Formed at the same kind of theology.

It's not a monolith Some are gonna make the case that the gifts died out some of the gifts

Some cessationists are gonna make the case that the gifts are tied into the apostolic ministry And when the twelve apostles ceased and those gifts see some will say that it's with the closing of the canon

Every cessationist is gonna say different things Cessationists don't mean that they believe that the

Holy Spirit is no longer operating in the church They don't believe in the baptism of the Spirit or they don't believe in supernatural miracles

They still believe God can do miracles today. They still believe God is working in his church

So there's no reason to create cessationism in this monolith and and beat up a straw man we don't want to do that what we do want to do is try to take some of their argumentations and Any an address

I sorry cut it off say it cut it off shortly bit But and that's what we're trying to do here as well, right? It is about hermeneutics.

We're gonna get into the issue of hermeneutics but We look just like there.

He's saying rightly that not all cessationists are all monolithic. Neither are all

Continuationists and so you're hearing that here with him Like it's refreshing to hear a continuationist admit that not all

Sensationists or don't you know deny miracles? That was a question that I saw in the chat

Earlier something about you know, do do we you know, do we believe in it, you know?

I'm trying to see if I can find if I yeah Joe Joe had asked so so gifts not miracles

Or does the doctrine believe miracles have also stopped this is the way many people describe it like if you believe that certain of these gifts and I'm really surprised because I call them revelatory gifts.

I have never heard anybody use it that way before me and I was glad when the cessationist film came out, but when they did that and and they were like wait what gift?

There's a first that they had heard that Term I had to explain that and I was glad that I saw that that got into the film

This clip was long before the film was even a concept So they did not get this language from the film cessationist, which if you haven't seen the cessationist film, okay, go do that but So they got it from somewhere now

I don't know where they got it And so maybe you like it's one of these things where you think something originates with you and then you realize no it didn't others

Have really have come to the same conclusion So not all

Charismatics and the carrot when we say charismatics, we're talking about people that believe the gifts continue.

There is no Middle ground here, by the way You either believe the gifts continue or you don't

I mean, it's not like they do both These are this is a mutually exclusive thing Right, but for those that believe there's they continue there is a wide spectrum

There are those who will say that if you don't have the gift of speaking in languages you are not saved that's an extreme position and to characterize all charismatics with that extreme

Would be just as wrong as the charismatics telling you a cessationist that you don't believe in miracles

Today, we believe God does miracles We just don't believe God gives a gift of miracles, and I think

I could support that in Scripture Just go to strike .org slash miracles you could read and actually watch these my talk at the cessationist conference and and see that so So I so I just want to point out it is a harmonical issue

And so I want to be fair with them as I think they're trying to be fair with us So let's let's dig into this first that there's going to describe the first argument.

So here it is This is a minute and 15 or a minute and 15 seconds first Corinthians 13 8 predicts the present cessation of apostolic signed gifts such as tongues and Prophecy it does talk about the ceasing of the gifts

For sure, but it's not because God suddenly withdrew those gifts. It's because of when that Prophecy or the perfect comes all gifts will cease because we'll have no need for them

And when Jesus returns and judgment has happened and all that's left are those who believe in Christ and are part of his

Body, will you need the gift of evangelism? No, will you need the gift of healing?

No because we'll have resurrection bodies Will you get need a gift of tongues? No, because at that time we can pray

Or I guess you say our ability to commune with God will be perfect and complete unlike it is today and so the scriptures themselves don't suddenly make all of those gifts unnecessary and also the point to the

Perfect being the canonization of the scriptures But the problem is we still need healing today like people's bodies are still broken down.

We still need it We still need the gift of evangelism today. People are still lost and outside of the community of faith

In the same way, I would say all the gifts are actually needed Okay, so we talked hermeneutics and I want

I want you to see what this brother has done He said that that when you look in 1st

Corinthians 13 8 the teleos the word translated perfect That word doesn't mean perfect.

It means complete or mature. It's it's perfect in the sense of something that's completed or matured That's the way it's used throughout all the scriptures

So when we see this and he's saying it cannot be the canon why because we need healing today

Okay What he did without realizing it is he's allowing his his preconceived ideas to interpret scripture

One of the first things I teach when I teach hermeneutics, which is the art and science of interpretation when

I teach that the first principle and Those who have taken the classes with me, you know, this the first principle

I teach is to question your own Presuppositions you let the scripture do the teaching you don't bring your preconceived ideas into the scripture you question your preset your presuppositions or pre

Conditions by the scripture and what he's doing is he's he's bringing something in now

I will challenge you to look through 1st Corinthians 13 Specifically eight and following and show me anywhere where healing is mentioned

It's not there Now I will also challenge you you tell me where we're we need

Healing notice what he said. We need healing really

Why because we want healing we don't need healing. You know, we you know, we need we need

To suffer eternity in a lake of fire because we are horrible

Rotten wicked sinners who have broken God's law over and over and over again

We do not need healing. In fact, we do not deserve healing

We deserve God's judgment But he gives us salvation

He doesn't always heal Now the fact that he okay, he says we need healing does is the body feeling the effects of sin?

Yes and so Yeah, and and so we look this

Kofi says so YouTube didn't notify me the show is on What did I miss a whole lot?

Everything Kofi every Kofi what we saw we solved about nine different world problems

So So so what we have here is I want you You know when we hear an argument one of the things and and these guys make arguments that if you listen just to their arguments

You can be convinced Let me be fair if you listen only to my arguments.

I believe that I can convince you But what you should do is look at Scripture and look at how we make the arguments

Okay, so when I make a case that the teleos is the canon and that these gifts are

Revelatory, how do I make that? Well, if I look at first Corinthians 13 8 and following it's some clear things

He's saying here. He speaks of a gift of prophecy Okay, let's hold off on what the prophecy is for a moment

But a gift of prophecy that'll be done away and he mentions a gift of knowledge.

That'll be done away both of those things The way it is worded in the Greek those stop because something happens what happens the teleos whatever that is but it says

Tongues will cease now. It's interesting because the cease here is a future middle indicative

Which means they cease on their own they cause themselves to cease. So if you're given this gift

What this is seeming that you're given this gift if God stops giving it It will cease on its own as people die out which is different than the other two gifts

Which are the other two gifts are you what we see? What reason

I call them revelatory gifts is because they're tied to revelation new revelation of Scripture and it says but when the

For we know in part and we prophesy in part see that the knowledge and the prophecy are partial now that is the following the very next verse verse, but when the completion comes

Let me use that word which is a fair reading of Teleos to be complete or mature when the maturity comes the partial will be done away

So whenever this thing is completed, whatever that is The partial things go away.

So whatever the teleos is it is directly tied to the knowledge and prophecy so if knowledge and prophecy are

Revelation something that gives revelation from God Then that is directly related to that.

You can't suddenly say it's something else The context immediately does not give you this is

Christ Just because the word perfect is used in English and Jesus is perfect because that word is not used that way elsewhere and so Okay, we just can't jump into something like that.

So When it comes to the prophecy and this he's gonna bring this up later

But I want if you guys don't mind if you're not driving the car just open your

Bible to Exodus chapter 7 I know I know that's Old Testament. You don't get there often.

Oh okay, maybe you do because you started your Bible reading and you're you're you're it started from Genesis and you're right about Exodus 7 by now, right?

Almost almost there you go The first four verses say this Then the

Lord said to Moses quote see I Make you as God to Pharaoh and your brother

Aaron shall be your prophet you shall Beak all the that I command you and your brother

Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh That he let the sons of Israel go out to his land but I will harden

Pharaoh's heart that he may Multiply my that I may multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt When Pharaoh does not listen to them

Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring out my hosts my people the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt by By great judgments unquote.

So what you have here is a couple things one first off side note The signs and wonders did not lead

Pharaoh to evangelism and salvation It hardened his heart so the arguments

Yeah, the LSB says I love that yeah, so so miracles don't lead to Salvation guaranteed right in Pharaoh's case it led to a hardening, but I want you to notice

We're having prophecy here. He's a prophet. What is a prophet? You shall speak all that I command you

This is not and we'll get to this in later episodes when we as we respond to them, but this is not that Moses's interpretation of what

God says prophecy is The direct revelation from God to man that is relayed directly as God gave it

There is no interpretation here God doesn't say Moses. I'm gonna tell you and you give your interpretation to Aaron No, he says you shall speak all that.

I command you and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh So what because Moses was like, oh, but I stutter

God said, okay, I'm gonna use Aaron as the Prophet You are gonna be the mouth

You're gonna say I'm gonna tell you exactly what you're gonna say You're gonna say exactly that to Aaron Aaron's gonna say exactly that to Pharaoh.

There is no interpretation. There's no mixing of words here That's what prophecy is it is a direct revelation okay, and So we have to understand that so if this is direct revelation, then the direct revelation stops at some point

So if it's the Canon, well when the Canon is a complete you don't need the prophecy anymore

You don't need that direct revelation because the Canon is complete That makes sense with this. He says it doesn't make it doesn't make any sense

What makes perfect sense because when that when that revelation is completed you no longer need the partial

That's exactly what the text says right, and so It's and notice what

I'm doing folks. I am fitting exactly with the context I'm walking through verse by verse and I'm looking at the immediate context, which is exactly how you interpret

Scripture You don't jump somewhere else. You don't insert something in that, you know, like healing into this

Okay, and this this highlights Andrew this highlights the importance of I mean you already said it's hermeneutics but but deeper study

Go deeper than just the certain your surface level reading and you approaching the scripture with framework instead of gathering your framework from what the scriptures

Teach you implicitly. So it's we we do need healing We do look at Romans 3.

There is no one righteous Not even one the poison of asps is on our lips And then we see in Romans 5 the healing

The healing that we receive is the heat the true healing we need and that is how can a simple man be made right with?

A holy God, so that's the healing we need, you know healing from the temporal healing from the temporal still happens

And I think that you what's interesting about his argument here Is he saying that categorically with cessationists that not all cessationists believe that all miracles have ceased yet His first argument is cessationists believe that all healings and miracles have ceased what what no

No, no. No, we do not. It's any time drew I think I've heard you say this man when we've talked about this like any time there is healing like I'm sick right now

I got a massive sore throat. They're running a fever off and on all day I feel like I've been run over but Lord willing when

I am healed of that That's a that is the miracle of the body that the

Lord created even though it is Wrapped in flesh, even though it is I still wrestle with sin on the side of eternity

The fact of the Lord would be gracious to allow my temporal body to be healed of temporal sickness is a miracle

So let me let me let me emphasize because I wanted I knew this would come up at some point I have it. I was gonna bring it up in a later clip, but you mentioned it.

So Anyone who's a regular? Watcher of this show You may have not even noticed that something's different with me now something had changed and it's now different.

Mm -hmm. I am NOT wearing glasses. I Don't know if any of you picked up on that.

I did I had double vision I had to get special glasses to solve the double vision

Done day. I went for a run. I took the glasses off. I Don't the run and jumped in a sauna. I didn't have the glassy can't bring glasses in the sauna

Doesn't not good and so I Was three hours and I forgot to put them on and went had dinner

And all of a sudden I turned my wife. I'm like, I've had no glasses on for six hours I don't have any issue with double vision and So I left them off my wife's like maybe leave them off on Monday.

Okay, Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Right now we're going to the doctor the eye doctor tomorrow

I'm gonna talk to the eye doctor because No, is this a miracle? No, because the doctor said this is the it could have it could heal itself

Does this mean I could get the problem again? It could but Did God heal me?

Well, yeah, because God everything happens is from God, right? Allows it or brings it that to be but is it a miracle?

I'm not gonna say it's a miracle Because this is the way the human body works and God can work within the way the human body works

So, you know Well, there was something I wanted to say in terms of The hermeneutics the the verse we're looking at prophecy

Times being done away with the thing. That is perfect, right? And so One of the things that these guys talk about in this

Podcast is they'll mention it. They'll say scripture is sufficient Okay, but is the question is is scripture sufficient enough to do away with prophecy

Right. Is it sufficient enough to do away with tongues? Because if it's not then it's not sufficient now

I'm sure that they would agree if if I say is Scripture in its autographs as written by the

Apostles Is it perfect because it is from God it is from the mind of God Breathed out by God.

Is it perfect? Yes. Okay. Well then there is something else Other than Christ that is perfect.

And that is Christ words that that is the words of God, right? So So this and this goes again back to this sufficiency of scripture

Do you believe it's sufficient to do away with prophecy because if it is sufficient to do away with prophecy

What do the scriptures not have that you need extra biblical prophecy for there it is

Yeah, and let me just bring the Joe says as far as healing 1st Corinthians 12 8

So if Paul still talks about the gifts have not stopped there. That's right We we agree everybody agrees that that the time of Paul's writing of this

That the gifts have not stopped One of the earliest books that he wrote later

He's gonna talk about someone who you know Nearly died taking care of him and he doesn't heal him he just Go home said everyone's not so worried about you so I just wanted to throw two cents in on something because you something you said with regard to Pharaoh and the get and the signs done before him that Pharaoh's heart was hardened there's this

Hermeneutic of well, we need these gifts because these things are still going on for example

Healing. Well, if we need the gifts and the gifts are necessary for evangelism and other things

Let's let's look at what scripture says with regard to when Christ performed healing

He healed a man's hand on the Sabbath and what was the reaction? They were angry with him

He cast demons out of a man The legion of demons cast them into the pigs the people saw the man in his right mind.

What was that? What did they do? They were afraid and told him get out. It wasn't because the pigs went in the water It's because the man was healed

You you see over and over again where You know and also okay casting out demons.

Oh, he does it by the power of Satan So over and over again. Well, yes, there were people who saw the signs and recognized them for what they were

Testimony to who Christ was there were just as many people who were angry afraid or despising of him for those signs the idea that we need sign gifts in order to do evangelism is fallacious because we can actually see in scripture the signs themselves do not are not some de facto way of Turning someone to Christ, you know, we actually see where it does the opposite effect

It is the words of Christ that actually bring people to salvation That his his sign gifts were that which testified and later to the

Apostles testified that they were called of Christ But it was the words that they preached that brought people to salvation.

It was not the signs Yeah let me touch on the Context again real quick Andrew just because yeah, because it deals with the hermeneutics and what you brought up because They they said in the clip that you played they they're bringing in healing, right?

They're bringing things that the text doesn't talk about later They're going to talk about how we introduce ideas that are not into the text

We read them in the text, but that's exactly what he did here And how do we know because the context continues into chapter 14 where he talks about prophecy and tongues to specific gifts and How that the church and he's rebuking him rebuking them by the way

First Corinthians is a book of rebuke. He's reviewed. They're gonna mention they're gonna mention right, right but for their desiring of these gifts rather than As it begins in 13 focusing on the love that that should be focused on.

Well, that's because we're gonna get you That's the I don't want to go ahead because I want to take it where they're where they go

But I the so before I and by the way, I am playing longer clips. I have cut this down because I Cut out some of where you know, they're stumbling or they they misquoted a verse or they're like trying to figure

Yeah, I don't want to I you know, I cut some out so I'm gonna be fair But I'm playing the large portion of their their quotes

Because I want you to get the context. I don't want to misrepresent them so you can hear I mean you can go back and listen to their whole thing, but That's why

I'm playing longer longer clips. This next one is nearly in a minute and a half And so we're gonna walk through the passage, but I want you to notice what

I had said When I'm looking at what does the word perfect tell us? What is it referring to?

What am I tying it to the immediate context before Verse 9 for we know in part and we prophesy in part and the immediate verse after the partial will be done away

What is the partial? The text says it knowledge prophecy

That's the partial. I mean the verse before says those are they are going to cease. They're gonna be done away right and So this is now saying yeah, these things these things are gonna be done away

They're partial and the partial will be done away when well verse 10 when the teleos comes

So whatever the teleos is it is not direct. It is not tied to the end times

It is not tied to the second coming of Christ. It is not time to the person of Christ It's not tied to your death.

It is directly tied to the partial being done away

Partial completion the word means complete Hmm complete partial they kind of go together when something is partial and it's completed

The partial is done because it's completed it's fitting perfectly with the context

Drew's just sitting there laughing and smirking. Sorry All right. It's in the private chat

So now you're gonna make us have to read it. Yeah So What the fact that Chris is saying

I got to leave shortly brothers is that and then my response Your response was no, you don't if you leave your support trans rights

Here golly man, if he leaves that means that he supports trans rights according to drew, okay

Oh You know this Twitter is

By the way, by the way for the record since we talked about this and this was brought up Melissa did some research

This is what I love about our audience that they don't they double -check their own work They're their own things that they said so Melissa said

I think I was mistaken about Alistair He had Helen Rose come to his church and speak it could have been in regards to her testimony

I know that many people were upset about it. And so she then said to Kathy gotcha

Kathy I only knew that people were upset about Alistair allowing her to be at the pulpit, but I guess

Kathy had said She's a missionary Speaking and reporting. I don't see a problem with that depends on the church so just just for the record as I had said it depends on the context of A woman speaking that I might or might not have an issue with it

If a missionary sharing what she did on the mission field, I may not have an issue with it depends how it's done

So let's play this next clip from them. It's about a minute and a half Yeah, I mean that's a it's a strange argument to make because why would the canonization of Scripture suddenly make the need for words of knowledge?

Gone like what is it about the fulfillment of all the scriptures being collected suddenly making that Absolutely, I mean we still need words of knowledge to demonstrate the power of God We still need prophecy to demonstrate the power of God if you look at first pennies 14 he'll say if an unbeliever or ungifted person walks in your community and All are prophesying will that person not fall on their face?

Declaring God is surely among you because the secrets of his heart are laid bare So do we not need that anymore because we have the scriptures

It literally uses the word prophecy So the prophecy thing is not having to do with anything with the scriptures.

It has to do with Jesus returning Wow Now we know are we seeing a

Mirror dimly then we shall see face to face. What is the face to face?

It's speaking to God like Moses did in purpose And in friendship and Moses the only person who got to do that and yet we're told that that's gonna be us one day

But it hadn't happened yet. The scriptures haven't all of a sudden Replaced that. Okay, so the guys are like losing it here

Does this not do everything he just said the Bible this is the prophecy And I want to point something out that drew said earlier

Is it sufficient enough because what is he saying? Here we he's admitting we have scripture, but we need more

Prophecy. Well, if we need more prophecy Then this prophecy the

Bible Then it's not sufficient Means let's just take into consideration

Paul, okay. He wrote another letter. All right It's a little bit after first Corinthians, I love you we call

You know the pastoral epistles. Okay in there. He says give some instruction to a guy named

Timothy where he says Do the work of an evangelist, but it's within the context of what?

the scriptures Scriptures preaching the word So if someone a non -believer,

I don't know comes into your church. How are you going to evangelize to them? I'm probably going to proclaim the

Word of God to them the same way I know evangelists like Andrew like Brian nine

Like other faithful men who go out into the streets and preach they don't just go

With it just just to go with with their own assumption that oh, well The Lord will give me a word to prophesy out.

No, they go with the word to proclaim That's what they what?

Oh What am I ever gonna do if I go to preach in a church service and a non -believer is not there

I'm probably going to rely on the Word of God Yeah, I want to I want to walk through this okay

Chris, go ahead I just want to say this and then I really do have to check guys Beat what was the friends rights?

No, because I don't know I don't if he leaves he if he leaves he's he's going to watch elf

No, absolutely not I'm gonna go eat dinner with my family is what I'm gonna do What what was the what did the prophet?

What were the prophets do? Thus saith the Lord whether it was a commandment from God Regarding the law whether it was a judgment for their disobedience or whether it was future prophetic revelation

It was always a direct word from God. Thus saith the Lord. What does the

New Testament Church have? Why is it so necessary to say the word that the scriptures is enough and we don't need

God's revelation because that's what this is Thus saith the

Lord Everything that they said we need is contained in these 66 books Every prophetic revelation that we need every judgment for sin that we need every you know, every commandment of obedience which then

Reveals to us our need for salvation which then is the gospel which is in here that everything you need

Everything they say that you need is contained in here What more would be necessary and it goes back to you as you said

Andrew quoting drew Do you believe it is sufficient enough and that's the point right this this is everything you need is here

Why do you need more other than well? I want to be able to say I spoke to God or God spoke direct to me and thus says this

Well, then why do we need this? Yeah Now, let me but I just because I probably just need to apologize in case those guys hear this because I know

I came off a little snarky right but It's just When you when you make a claim

That scripture is sufficient, but then your entire argumentation

Exposes that you don't actually believe scripture is sufficient Right. Those are things that just kind of drive me up a wall and when we have scripture that can back up what we're saying in scripture that disproves what you just said and Like Chris said everything that that they just said is in here

Right. Those are things that my first reaction is to be kind of snarky. So I apologize All right, brothers

I have got to skedaddle so I'm gonna leave you guys here pray pray you guys have a great show

Well, thank you. Thanks for having Chris Chris. Yeah, we're gonna talk behind your back Yeah, Chris said he was only gonna come on for like 10 minutes, but I was and then

I got stuck here for the whole show So God bless mom. So so let me let me walk through some of this right so Because I want us to see you know what

Some of what what he's doing and and I'm I'm gonna give the benefit of doubt and point out that Oftentimes Many people will do interpretation not even realize what they're doing because it's just we we can be blinded by what we believe

Okay, and so this is why what we must do is is learn the rules of interpretation

Take the we have a free class. You can go to striving attorney comm or org, whichever

Go to our Academy actually go striving attorney Academy org Go to our Academy take our courses for free.

Take our course on biblical hermeneutics 20 lessons walk you through it It's free and we'll give you the rules some basic rules to interpretation that will help you to see like following immediate context

Okay, interpreting words, you know, they got to be interpreted from the Greek not the English. Okay, and So what you you see him do is he's saying in the beginning of that clip like it makes no sense to him

That we would say it's the canon why? It doesn't make sense because he's starting with his conclusion right

What he's not doing is understanding how we are understanding it and I'm not faulting him.

I'm not You know if this happens with a lot of people, okay I I know

I just I always have to remember and recognize that I was raised differently You're being

Jewish. You're raised to debate You're you're raised to be able to see both sides of an issue to argue either side of an issue and so I Didn't know that everyone doesn't have that ability

I think that's what people tell me makes me a good counselor is because I don't just jump to a conclusion

I try to hear someone out Yeah, it's why where there was a comment in here.

Hold on It was from Scott. Oh here. So this guy Scott Says I I don't see how you you stand and listen to the whole episode of that Andrew I do

I I do because I want to make sure I am just one episode I'm I listen like 60 70 episodes because I want to make sure that I have them in context

I want to make sure I don't misrepresent them Okay, and so what am

I trying to do? I'm trying to get into their mindset so so I'm not saying that he's and I I don't know the guy's names

I forget which voice was rich, but I I Am not saying he's doing this on purpose

But what he's doing is he starts with this conclusion. He goes. Well, then this makes no sense Because he's not trying to understand how we're looking at it

And I laid out why I think that it is the canon. It is the completion of prophecy and knowledge and so What does he then do?

He he brings up this mirror dimly and face to face now. This is very commonly a Common mistake people make

Oh face to face must be a personal encounter. That's how many will say it now he went even further that face -to -face means our

Relationship with Christ and all and Moses is the only one that actually had this face -to -face relationship

I Don't know that we can say he's the only one just saying because Enoch walked so closely with God He just was taken up with him but In fact

Moses couldn't look at him face to face because he would be dead. He just looked at the glory of God passing by and so What we end up seeing with it and and we're gonna go long tonight folks

Just because we had a lot of segments and I really want to finish out this one argument that they make

And we'll deal with their other arguments in the future and they're trying to answer the arguments We make and they're trying to give answers.

And so we're looking to respond to that What you see when he says? Looking at a mirror, but then face to face.

There's a word he skipped when he said that We're now we look in a mirror dimly

But then face to face, you know, why so many people don't understand this because they don't understand what a mirror was in that day

The word dimly could you could literally be in a riddle by the way?

The idea is that you look at polished metal not the mirrors we have today

They didn't have mirrors like we have today. They had polished metal where you couldn't really see clearly, but you see vaguely

Now that's a incomplete view versus seeing face to face the way we look in a mirror today

Go grab us a spoon or some polished metal like like a pot Look at that then look in a mirror.

Are you gonna see a difference one's not so clear one's very clear That's what he's saying.

How do I know that? Because that's the context Partial to complete and what does he do?

He talks this word is that the fortelios means to be mature or complete? What's the first illustration he uses and this is what he does.

He makes a statement and gives three illustrations a child To an adult.

What is that maturity? Looking at polished metal dimly versus looking face to face.

What is that? Partial to completion. How do we know? Well, he goes

I know in part and then fully I will know it just as I am fully known

Partial completion. What do you see? You have three illustrations? They're teaching the same exact thing partial to complete

So what you do not do when you interpret is take an illustration and make it the main thing

You also don't take an illustration or a parable latent flowers, this is a lesson for you you don't take a parable and Make it say something it's not meant to say when you have an illustration or a parable the way to interpret it is to look at what it's illustrating and You stop there.

So what are these three things illustrating partial to complete child to manhood?

Vague looking at something vaguely versus looking clearly knowing in part versus fully known

Partial to complete that's the thing that is fitting with the context that we see in verses nine and ten

So when you take the face to face to be literal and now say that that's a personal relationship

That's a problem now. I'll just say for the record for those who know May I've debated Matt slick on this

Matt would say face -to -face is always used as a personal encounter except for a verse in Proverbs Where it says looking at water face face

That's the same thing here, what is he doing looking at the reflection of his face?

That's what you're looking at here looking at a mirror versus looking at a reflection clearly. Yeah, I just looked up First I pulled up my my

Logos Bible software. Okay, and then I By the way, if you didn't have

Logos Bible software or wanted to upgrade it you could go to log a Logos comm slash

SFE for striving for eternity and get yourself a nice discount and five free books on striving for eternity

Continue. Yep. Well when you were talking about the word that they skipped right dimly and you said that could be used in a riddle

Well the word And so to elaborate on what you were saying why that can be used in a riddle is because the word that's used for dimly

And this will make sense is in the Greek Enigma, which is where we get our

English word enigma, which means a mystery, right? So the mystery the thing that you don't understand

Will be made clear to understand now. Yes So so and folks look

What am I doing? I am staying right within this context using the exact words that we see in the scripture

I'm not bringing anything in I'm not inserting things and I'm also following the rules of interpretation

I'm not taking an illustration and making it say something it isn't okay, and again,

I'm This is a very common with people to do so. I don't want to say. Oh look these guys are so wrong um

This is this is something that people do it happens. All right Now I forgot if I am on clip four or five

This this next one's two and a half minutes. So I don't think I played this one yet so so You're gonna just have to hold your yourselves there

But we got three more clips and and and they're The next to get longer and longer so here we go

You don't know you don't understand how hard it is for me and Chris to go through these long clips and not anything

This is torture for you But but I want to give them their context. So you so get out a piece of paper and just take your notes

All right, here we go Just here just your point I want to I want to make sure that I I clearly articulate the cessationist role and I'll I'll play the role of Cessationist and you can you can challenge me on that.

Okay, so if I'm a cessationist I'm going to say Michael this doesn't have to do with the fact that we don't need healing today

This passage is talking about specifically revelatory gifts such as tongues Prophecy and words of knowledge.

Okay of these three gifts These are revelatory gifts that the body of Christ needed in the days when the

Canon was not complete They had the Old Testament scriptures They had Exodus and Leviticus and numbers

Deuteronomy they had enough to know what was moral But how are they to conduct themselves in the local church?

First Timothy hadn't been written yet. Second Timothy hadn't been written yet Titus revelation

They didn't know what to do and how to practice and govern in the local church So God was present -day speaking to the local church on how to govern themselves how to practice their

Christian life But now all that we need to practice the Christian life is sufficient and found in the

New Testament scriptures We no longer need prophecy and tongues and revelatory speech to guide us because we have a sufficient guiding now found in scripture

That's that would be the argumentation So the problem is is that you're saying that prophecy is unto the guidance of a pastoral service

Believers meeting but actually when you look at the believers meeting in 1st Corinthians 14 26 That's not what it says prophecy is for it actually says that if unbelievers come into that meeting

Evangelism happens it opens the doors for evangelism people fall on their face They declare God is here because suddenly their secrets are laid bare.

So I think that the The premise that they're making is that prophecy words of knowledge?

revelatory gifts like tongues are unto the Conduction of a service or Christian gathering

So that we know how to do that, but that's not What that's saying in scripture.

It actually says like these things are done as part of the liturgy You sing a song you have a teaching you give a revelation.

You have a tongue. You have an interpretation This is 1st Corinthians 14 26. So Paul is himself in scripture saying what is to happen in a believers meeting

So you have to in some sense say well that was only good for You know

Paul's day. Okay. So let me break some of these things down and look at them. Mm -hmm First off I like that.

They said revelatory gifts. I don't know they're responding to someone So there is someone else out there that uses that term.

But why why are we say why do I say they're revelatory? Yes Because that's what

Prophecy is but that's what the teaching that he said in verse 26 says one has a psalm has a teaching has a revelation as a tongue has an

Interpretation right? Those are all a psalm is instruction through through singing teaching revelation tongues

Interpretation those are all revelatory gifts right there. Yeah. Yeah, and so that's giving of revelation.

So so And look and we'll get to this in later episodes so I don't want to harp on this now because because I want to make sure that it's when they bring this up, but they're gonna they're gonna make a distinction between the prophecy of Old Testament prophecy today and they're gonna say that prophecy is not

Is not equal and authority to scripture, but what makes scripture authoritative? It's that it's the words of God What is prophecy the words of God?

That's why they are equal Because they're directly. That's what I wrote down That's what

I wrote down. What what is prophecy biblically? What is Paul talking about here? Biblically not the

Lord has told me that drew is gonna drink another sip of water in 3 .7 seconds No, no, you're gonna have a fresco.

Sorry That's right, so no So so don't prophecy is the heralding of the word of the very words of God So so what is prophecy biblically?

What are tongues? biblically not Not some gibberish not some private prayer language

But tongues are other known languages that people there and Paul talks about that having one or more

Interpreters so that it can be understood Right. What are those?

What are those things categorically that we see in Scripture? How do we define those something else he said, you know, and I know he was just kind of being kind of slapstick about it

But you know, we didn't have Timothy. We didn't have Titus, but we had Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy Isaiah Hello, you have the gospel in the

Old Testament Like yeah, we have the law we have But it's what he says it's the purpose already so so first off he said he was saying the the prophet that Prophecy is only enough to give they there there was so they had some of the books, but it was only for morality

Not practice. Oh So so no for if that was the case that Abraham I'm reading

I just read this if that was the case then then Abraham would not have been counted as righteous

Yeah, if it was just merely moralism, it's just as damning as atheism

Let's let's put this in context, right? So at this point the earth has and people have been around but by time of this writing for like over 4 ,000 years and You're gonna tell me that in 4 ,000 years of history

God never gave them an understanding of practice just morality Now, maybe

I'm gonna try to give me maybe he's saying just the church, okay that that may be that he but but yet Here is the book of 1st

Corinthians that he's writing and what is it all about? It's all about practice Right So it's not a rebuke of the practice of the

Corinthian Church Of the hyper focus of the gifts every single chapter is a rebuke

And yet what you see is that they people will take these chapters these three twelve thirteen fourteen and go

Oh, this is what we should do. Well if Paul's been condemning throughout the book the behavior

Why do you suddenly think this is something we should do and not something we should not Yeah, nope missed it by eternity

So Here's the other thing is he said I don't know if you picked up on this that we need these gifts for guidance

You know whose job it is to give us guidance That's the job of the Holy Spirit.

How does he do it by illuminating the Word of God? to our minds and the application thereof and so if If you're looking for some gifts that humans are given to be the guidance

That's the Holy Spirit's job. And how is he gonna do it? He does it through the word. We don't need a gift for guidance

Okay, and and we have the Yeah, he said that in law of testimony the precepts the commandments and the fear of Yahweh That's what we have and it restores the soul.

It makes wise the simple it rejoices the heart and enlightens lightens the eyes It endures forever and they are righteous altogether.

Not only that there's proverbs. Yep. Yeah Well, not only that let me let me throw in some things in there that are that are often neglected within those practices.

You just mentioned right prayer meditation, yes, because Because meditation, what are we meditating upon the things of Scripture?

and Those are things that help guide us and and it's not just well,

I think about this about what I just read No, it's taking what I just read in saying, how do

I apply what I just read? Yeah and and this is the thing

I mean as I Listened to what he said and I kind of mentioned this earlier. But what do you have?

He said prophecy is for what purpose? Evangelism what did we read in Exodus 7?

It wasn't evangelism. No purpose of it was not evangelism now One thing we have to be careful with so I want to make sure that I'm not doing this as well is to say well

You know because you know, maybe this guy I think the one that was said it was

Michael. I don't remember but You know, he may listen and say well a you're you're going too far

I don't want to be guilty of trying to say oh, that's what he's saying All like this is the only thing that it's for because I I'm gonna guess he's probably gonna say no

It's not just for evangelism, but he's gonna say it is for that. That is a purpose of it and That was a purpose that we see like an axe where the this miraculous gift of languages occurred

So that they could evangelize I will agree Okay, but I want you to notice something when they evangelized what was happening they were speaking a language

They didn't know to people who did know the languages you cannot do a miracle speaking in tongues and speak gibberish and suddenly have someone

You know go oh, that's I'm gonna believe know what the reason they that it was amazing to them is because they heard it in their own language

They also said it was part of the church service now again I don't want to I don't want to say he's saying this that like that It's everything but what

I'm not sure of what I'd like to if we had a dialogue instead of monologues Which I'd prefer so I could get more accurate questions answered

I Would ask him does he believe that every church service must have the the speaking of languages and the interpretation of it

Okay because that becomes interesting by the way, I don't hear people mention this a lot, but You know how that interpretation occurred most people think it's one person speaks in in a language and then two people do the interpretation to vindicate

One another and vindicate that the that that it was translated rightly But when you look at the text, it's two people speak in the language and one person interprets

Hmm, so you have to have two people that have this gift and they're speaking the same language

Like At least two or three at least two people And what and what

I'm gonna say if we here maybe we'll dig into that to the next chapter chapter 14 and look at it more detail, but what

I think Paul's doing here is is He is he knows these gifts are gonna cease because he says that okay, and I think what he's doing is he's trying to be careful with it and give instruction

To be balanced with the church and so he's saying look if you're gonna say you have this gift because people do have that gift

Here's how to do this if it's within the church setting. I don't think he's saying it can only be in the church setting and I don't think he said

Paul is saying that it should be in every church setting and I would ask Michael if he thinks if I forget which guys which but I'm gonna say

Michael and hope I got it, right? I got a 50 -50 shot but I Want to do is say, you know, do you believe that every church service should have that because he's saying it's part of the liturgy

And this is a thing that you see is where they like Matt slick will say that not every church will have these gifts

But but it should be in the church universal But if the church needs it if there's a you know, it says the church won't lack these gifts

Well, that means there's a need Right, I would say there's no more need because we have a completed

Canon, but if but every church has a need To hear from God. So every church should be having revelation

But then if it's direct revelation, we should be writing it down and and part of this is and and I'm gonna be

Fair with this as well. We'll get into as more as we dig into their arguments, you know throughout the year, but I believe that part of the problem and and as you talk to people that are

Continuationists if you're a cessationist or vice versa, I want you to think about this What do

I do on this show regularly? I go to the definition of terms why? I believe when i'm listening to these guys

The issue that we're hearing is this What I define or what many cessationists would define as Providence Is what they would define as prophecy so when we hear them talk prophecy

We're thinking old testament prophecy direct revelation And yet what are they doing?

They're defining it as providence and there is a difference between providence and prophecy okay and so What i'm doing when i'm listening to them is i'm interjecting

The word providence to what they're saying now There are times where they use prophecy two different ways

They define it as prophecy, but then use it as old testament prophecy and so it makes it a little bit hard to uh to get

This to you know to to really ration through this with and this is where it would take a discussion

Let me this next clip is two and a half minutes. The last clip is 30 seconds. So I know it's a longer one

Take your notes. Here we go so typically a cessationist would say Prophecy is infallible revelation that establishes the foundation of the church

So in ephesians chapter 2 they would say the apostles and prophets laid the foundation of the church

And the reason that we needed prophecy back then was because there were things about um

New testament practice that we weren't aware of that the spirit needed to guide us through But now that we have the scriptures we no longer need those revelations

However, what then you have to say as a cessationist is that every single prophecy ever given from the time of acts chapter 2

To the closing of the canon was infallible revelatory speech with equal authority as scripture

Which means in joel chapter 2 i'll pour out my spirit on all flesh your sons and daughters will prophesy

Your old men your young men it is including that of children and it is including that of women

So every cessationist who believes that prophecy was the equivalent authority of scriptures must believe that the daughters of philip

Women were prophesying in such a way to give authority that was equal to the binding authority and power of scripture where as a complementarian

I see paul in first timothy preventing I do not permit a woman to Preach teach or exercise authority over a man.

The apostle paul would say Which would then suggest that a woman could ultimately prophesy something that has the equal authority of scripture, but they couldn't teach it and there seems to be a disconnect there for me it seems as if prophecy in the new testament was actually submitted to the local church, but Scripture seemed to have an authority over the local church

I would consider you to to think of the apostle paul who is combating the super apostles in second corinthians or you know

Affirming his apostleship in first corinthians and he says let those who are spiritual know that the words that i'm writing are scripture you don't get to go in uh

Get together with a group of prophets and determine whether my words are accurate or not. I'm speaking in the words of god um, so uh,

I would just uh affirm that there is a difference to new testament prophecy and scripture in the new testament that the early church acknowledged that there was a difference between Prophets in the new testament and the apostle paul writing the words of god

Okay, so Excuse me a couple things we have here

Um Sorry about that Then I shouldn't cough into cough the in the mic, right?

so he says um So, you know prophecy, you know, he he gave it what he's like looking at the prophecy.

What did I say out of exodus 7 prophecy is direct revelation from god

So he's saying like why do we need well? We needed it because the canon wasn't complete

I mean, it's just that simple. That's exactly what the text says in first corinthians chapter 13

Right. It's partial It's completed Once something is complete.

Do you need the partial anymore? No if I if I had a

Let's say for example That i'm putting together a jigsaw puzzle with really small pieces

Or my eyesight is bad and I need a magnifying glass to see the pieces to put them in place

Once I have the jigsaw puzzle all put together do I need the magnifying glass anymore for that puzzle?

No, why the puzzle is complete and the tool that I used

To work at completing it is not necessary once it's completed So when he's like he's saying it, you know we

Why do we need this? Why would we need the the gift of prophecy? Well, we we need it because it's not completed yet And once it's completed it was done.

That's why he's saying he was saying, you know, like he's making this distinction with the scripture and and prophecy, but prophecy being direct revelation from god

Is what the bible is? It's god's very word and so all scripture is inspired what does that mean god breathed that's what makes it authoritative

It's not because it's written down that it's authoritative Because it is god breathed.

It is the direct revelation from god. It's coming directly from him That's what makes it authoritative and therefore yes any direct revelation

Is authoritative because it comes from an authoritative source Now he mentions, you know, the the daughters of of philip.

Now. Here's the thing If the daughters of philip are giving direct revelation that's coming from god i'm saying if Then yes, it is authoritative

Because it is direct revelation from god. Why do I say if? You know what the bible is recording there again, how do we do hermeneutics you have a historical narrative historical narratives do not teach what you should do, but what did happen they are as Drew, sorry, not as true as chris said earlier prescriptive versus descriptive

Descriptive just describes what happened. That's historical narrative But a book like first corinthians is prescriptive instructional

That's different so what you have is the fact that This is what actually happened what we see in acts

But could someone believe? They're getting direct revelation to be wrong Yes You want proof?

Okay jesus calling Yeah She claims in the introduction that she closes her mind when the spirit takes over and writes

That a spirit takes over that's for sure Yeah, a spirit takes over but she's claiming that to be direct revelation

Then she's saying that the spirit is writing through her that's direct revelation then so that would be equal in authority to scripture

If that's from god, but was it from god? Well, no because there was guess what there's things that disagree with the bible in there

And therefore it was not direct revelation. She thinks she's giving prophecy, but she's not

Could the daughters of philip be in the same boat because they give a prophecies? uh about You know, they say something about paul that didn't actually happen right

Well, yeah, maybe not because he didn't exactly do it what they said, you know, so Were they really prophets see that the bible doesn't say it came from god, it just says that they prophesy

Yeah, what we're seeing here man, this is this is I I wrote this down and jason cave brought it up He you know on the chat.

He just said complimentarian Yeah Yeah He he mentioned that and so, you know,

I Brothers and sisters. I I go I always man. I'm a i'm a very simple man.

Um, and So I always go back. We don't we don't believe that we've heard your podcast.

We've heard you here So so, you know, it all goes back to this, you know, um, if you're complimentarian

And you are making the argument that god's ultimately let's just be honest And this is what I said to matt slick and it kind of upset him

At the time when I said this to him, you know scripture is obviously not enough for you It's not god's holy inerrant infallible insufficient word

Is not enough for you and so what you're doing What this what these guys are doing and and I hope they listen to this and I hope they hear the plea that's coming

And and the compassion that's coming from my heart here You are aligning with satan

Because you are asking has god really said That's what you're doing.

You're complimentarian You're twisting scripture You're twisting the words of scripture in order to fit a framework that you want

Yeah, instead of instead of having the humility to go You know, I was wrong about this.

I can say that because I was in their position To where I believe that the lord would speak audibly

I believe that the lord would would give me something to give to someone at church like i've been there i've done that But but that's what this is, you know, you're by saying you're complimentarian and By by by saying that you you know that your prophecy means this and this no

No, no, you're not reading the scriptures. And so So I I challenge these bro. I'm not gonna say i'm not gonna say brothers

I'm gonna say I challenge these guys with this, you know, are our lord's words. Why do you call me lord lord not do what

I say? Yeah I I mean it's You're you so so just take it taking it back to the very foundation

Like we're taking it back to what the serpent did to eve in the garden Like you are you're reading this and you've twisted scripture in order to fit a framework that says scripture's not enough yeah, and now

I will call them brother because I I mean, I listened to enough of my I do think they're they're they're saying I don't have

I'm just going yeah Yeah, so they you know, they brought up and he brought up an interesting point about a disconnect between Women being able to prophesy but not teach

And And this is where I think I can help him understand this disconnect The reason he has a disconnect is about that in the head coverings episode.

Yeah he he has a Wrong understanding of prophecy once you understand prophecy as direct revelation

Can a woman get up at church? Open the bible and read Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with that because she's not teaching

She's reading the direct revelation from god So can could god do that?

In fact? We know for a fact that happened how? jesus

Instructed the women at the tomb to go back and give direct revelation to the disciples

You go tell them this and they go back and instruct the disciples what with with their own words no

With the direct revelation they heard directly from god jesus christ and that would also be called prophesying

Yeah, it would be Forthtelling. Yeah, and this is why this is why definitions matter, right and so We would not have an issue

With a woman being a prophet and if you listen to my podcast my rap report podcast

In the series i'm doing on what is a pastor? I just dealt with women pastors

And I discussed that I discussed the women who were prophesying and I mentioned what it is

And said why we don't have issue with it. Can a woman prophesy? Yes. She's not interpreting.

She's not teaching She's giving she's telling you what god told her Okay, that's not a problem women can get up and read the bible and I want you to notice in that at the end

I can't be 100 sure in that clip But there's enough others that I think it is happening is

Is he's making a distinction and there he's making a distinction between what he's calling new testament prophecy and scripture

But they make it it's it's like he's making a distinction between scripture prophecy and the prophecy done today

We'll get to that in more detail in future episodes So let me play this last 30 second clip so we can let them round finish out their their first argument

And right their first argument is that people say that we cessation say That gifts have ceased according to first corinthians 13 8 to 12

We do say that and we say it's the canon now. Not every cessationist believe it is the canon. I understand

But I i've laid out why from the context I think it is but here's the last 30 second clip

So he does that in the same book doesn't he? That's right. Corinthians I I it's kind of um

I hope we're not being redundant in this because this feels like an argument we addressed in a former episode when we started talking about Biblical arguments

Cessationist arguments not biblical cessation arguments against prophecy prophecy That's right Which I guess we got to do that because they sort of lump tongues in with prophecy

But and so we're not trying to be redundant intentionally. It's just because that that those two things get associated in that camp.

Okay, so I I just I find it very interesting and i'm going to try to get back to what he this one part

We're not being redundant in this because this feels like an argument we addressed in a former episode when we started talking about biblical arguments cessationist arguments

Biblical arguments he was right there by the way already in slip. Okay, yeah um, but but Where is it that we get this connection between prophecy

And tongues, hold on. Let me let me think about this Love never fails but if there are any gifts of prophecy

They will be done away with if there are any Languages, they will cease

Where where do we get that connection? paul god

God I mean, he's the one that put the connection there. It's not me I didn't make a connection

So like this is the thing where I really get puzzled like when he says I don't know where they get the connection

I read the next line You know and so now why is it hard again,

I think the reason it is hard for this brother is because He he's starting with a preconceived idea

He does I don't think he he even sees that he's reading that idea into into the text Okay, he's using his precinct preconceived conclusions to draw his conclusions.

Correct Right. So that's their first argument we will we'll come back either next week or or you know, we'll see if we do something else next week, but we'll um

We'll continue with these arguments I want to just backstage joe is here is here I see him So pastor joe conkle.

I I got the privilege of preaching at his church. Uh, what two two weeks ago Right. Yeah so, uh, but Jonah chapter two.

So so did you have any more questions? Right? I know you came in with alistair begg, but I just since you

Went on screen. I just wanted to see if we answered everything fully for you No, no,

I yeah, I just wanted to see all the you know, how you addressed Because I sent you a text

About the remnant radio. I had just listened to it. You said you were going to do it thursday. So I was uh, kind of excited to jump in as a former charismatic for 31 years

Uh who's spoken and can still speak in tongues? Oh, yeah, I could do it.

I still could do it. It's Easy to do. Yeah, very easy to do. So but anyways, uh, yeah, it's um,

I have you had you actually sent me so so for folks to understand you you sent me a clip not knowing what we were going to talk about but you sent me a clip and said

You ought to ask these guys on apologetics live to discuss the issues with them and this was them

Responding to the cessationist film and we will get there I I grabbed a

I mean I grabbed a number of episodes that I want to go through With this audience to walk so we'll get to their critique of the cessationist film

Uh, but that's probably gonna be a ways down the road. Um, just yeah by the time we get to it

The cessationist conference will probably be going on that g3 is putting together so Let me

I want to end the show. I know we we've gone long folks There's been like a mega episode and so I appreciate you allowing us to go long.

I think it was some good stuff here We we didn't get to all the questions that came actually. I love our audience

I mean like you did if you're not watching this live on thursday nights Man, are you missing out on things?

Um, and and Joe, i'm just gonna mute you just because we're getting a lot of hissing noise there But the the chat has their own they

I couldn't even keep up with everything So if I sometimes get distracted, it's like i'm trying to catch up with what's going on in the chat great discussion in the chat

Uh, I know melissa's saying my pillow my pillow. I I I won't we don't have time. We did do the logos commercial uh or or support, um, but um

The the the one thing I do want to ask this audience. I got two things left to say one. I want to share

And it kind of said to that i'm going to share it at the end just came up, but I want this audience to Contact me and i'll tell you why what i'm noticing and this is goes back to what we say in the very beginning with Uh the thursday night and other people scheduling things thursday night has become a night where i'm noticing a lot of fellow

Ministries are doing live streams and and different things So when we started this we used to have a very large audience that watched live

And we've watched that kind of kind of peel off in different directions just because fellow People in ministry that we love are doing similar things and thursday night works

Right matt slick started doing a bible study and they asked for it to be on thursday night.

So, okay He did that on thursday night same time Like an hour after us we used to see where we had this big audience for the first hour and then they all shifted over To to matt's bible study because we have some of the same audience

We've seen a similar thing with the guys from open air theology. They have stuff going on thursday night

Right 8 30. So it's right. It's like half an hour. So so we have a lot of that. So what i'm what i'm asking is

And i'm going to ask you guys to to email me your thoughts. Okay, because I want to hear from you

And so the way to contact us is info at striving for eternity .com Info at striving for eternity .com.

What I want to know is your thoughts on changing Apologetics live to a different night.

And if so Which night would you prefer? Okay I'm thinking we might want to go back to where matt and I started on sunday nights

That might be good um Especially when there's a super bowl. So someone has something good and wholesome to do on that day.

Um All you pagans know, uh but but I I I want

I I i'm want to know which night would work for folks Um, wednesday night's probably going to be out because well most people have church including me so I couldn't do it.

Um You know, so we want to find a good night. So Thursday night seems to be getting packed and I want you guys to contact us info at striving for training .com

Calm you don't want to look you can contact me on facebook or whatever else But the email would work best so we could track it

But uh, so info at striving fraternity .com if you're watching on or if you're listening on podcast, it's in the show notes so We really want to know what you guys think for that.

Um With that one more thing very sad note Um, and thank you melissa for saying she she's just saying uh, whatever day is convenient for you

Well, I want to know what day you're going to want to listen, right? And so so and because we have a large audience that don't don't watch live

But they go and and listen to the podcast afterwards because they know we turn it into a podcast and some other streams don't

So I get that and so for the podcast listeners. Hey, this this would be helpful um

Let me give a a sad bit of news right now. Um many folks in this audience will know of The ministry of living waters, uh with its founder ray comfort

Ray comfort's son -in -law who is now the the president of living waters is emile zwayne known as easy

Um, he just posted something Uh, just a few hours ago that I would like to read

Okay, and I should also mention this is a side note. Uh last week drew you you you read thankfully the text from from Uh, grady adams, he came through surgery.

Well, he's recovering. So that's good news answer to prayer Here's something for you guys, uh easy put this out my dear father francis

Entered into the lord's presence at 12 26 a .m. Yesterday morning

I was holding him and praying over him when he passed

He was at peace and free of pain i'm, so thankful to god for the 113 years

He gave him on this earth Wow, he earned the title of quote oldest man in america unquote

And landed in the top five in the world He was one of the warmest

Kindest and most generous men that I That I ever graced that ever graced this planet

He will be deeply missed And his memory will be forever cherished

I can't wait to walk the streets of gold with him in our father's kingdom uh and so the thing it's interesting is uh francis

Got that the oldest man in america by today. So so here's the thing they didn't have birth certificates back then

So they actually he never knew what his birthday was So the way they do the oldest person in america it's by the year so every january

That's that's it. So the oldest person in america was 112 years old until this january

So he doesn't know what his birthday is, but this january that counted And so once you pass into december they had the year and so as long as he was alive

By january 1st, he became the oldest man in america um, and only there's only four people ahead of him in the world and so he is you know, you know think about What he has seen in 113 years, right?

Um and think about the fact that um at at 113 years old

He was born. Are you ready for this? 1911 Think about that.

We we started this show talking about the cessationist the continuationist movement that started in what?

1905 six years before he was born And we look at 1905 like a really long time ago

To him that was just six years before he was born, right? So we praise god that he is in heaven and I believe it was easy that led him to the lord uh, he was easy was uh,

I think easy was he he was uh, he gave he easy was uh, when easy was born,

I think his father was like 65 or something So he was still having children late in life

Um, I think easy's older brothers and sisters, which I think there's like 13 of them, uh are much older so Yeah, so um

So with that we're going to end bad to end on a bad note, but it's not really bad. It's kind of good He's in heaven.

So pray for the family And so and for those who have been

Texting like in the chat giving me the dates, please email me that will be very helpful for us.

All right So with that next week, we're probably going to continue in argument number two of this uh of this podcast and so I know we went longer.

It's a mega episode three hours, but um I hope this was helpful and We look forward to seeing you next week.