Responding to Ligon Duncan on God's Law

I would say if the authorities didn't want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified

Jesus in the public square. Use humanistic principles. It's the same idea. It's the same end.

I would say what's the problem with stardust bumping into stardust? In the cosmic picture? None.

There's no problem. In the cosmic picture, it won't matter. No, Mr.

President, you are not protecting reproductive freedom. You are authorizing the destruction of freedom for one million little human beings every year.

I'm sorry, my friends, but I am tired of seeing Jesus presented as a weak beggar.

He is a powerful savior, and the gospel is not a suggestion, it is a command.

Reverend Moller, don't you sympathize with that? I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living

God, but I believe there's only one way that that can happen through Jesus Christ, and the gospel is about repenting of sin, not celebrating it.

An amazing adventure. We will explore the spiritual abyss. You have not experienced this before.

You're going to love it. Behold my servant whom

I uphold, my chosen in whom my soul delights. I have put my spirit upon him.

He will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice or make a herd in the street.

A bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench. He will faithfully bring forth justice.

He will not grow faint or be discouraged, till he has established justice in the earth and the coastlands wait for his law.

Hey, there it is. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio.

This is where you live translate for our German audience, which is so vast. Hallo, willkommen zu einer neuen Episode von

Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. Oh, I continue. Okay.

Tobias, we've done this together in Germany. I'm sorry. This is the gospel heard around the world. If you want to know more, go to ApologiaStudios .com.

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Is that booked now? The book is coming out supposedly the end of this month. No, I mean, is he booked? Oh, he's booked.

Yeah, okay. I already bought his ticket. Then he better come now. Dr. Gentry, you better be on your way.

This can't be like the, I'm releasing the book next month. No, no. Some people, I was laughing as they put out the thing that is

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So go to ApologiaStudios .com. Get that. Also, in light of today's discussion, important one, with Ligon Duncan and the comments he made regarding theonomy.

We're going to be getting into Ligon Duncan's comments on theonomy recently. I think it was just recently dropped.

Maybe even a couple days ago. I'll look at that. I'm not interested. In light of all that, we'll, of course, be engaging with his comments.

But you should be signing up for Bonson U, which is totally free, at Apologia Studios. It is

Dr. Greg Bonson who Ligon Duncan references. Dr. Greg Bonson's life's work. All of his lectures from seminary, his lectures and sermons at church, his public debates.

It's just a treasure chest full of some of the best teaching on church history, the

Bible, philosophy, apologetics, all of that. And it's free. And honestly, in terms of what you can get from seminaries today, this is top tier.

Dr. Greg Bonson. And it's free, entrusted to us by the Bonson family to give to you to bless your life.

And so if you don't have an account yet, don't delay. Get your account at ApologiaStudios .com,

Bonson U. It's totally free. All right. So let's get into today, shall we? We shall. So we are going to talk and engage with some of the comments made by Brother Duncan.

And before we do, though, you notice that we have some Germans with us, some Germans that we love.

We actually were with them very recently. Was it August, September, September, September? We were in Germany, in Frankfurt, Germany, and we did some public talks on the issue of abolition and the issue of abortion in Germany.

And so we've we've known these guys for a while. Grateful for the work that they're doing out there. And so, so, yeah, let's get into that conversation before we talk about Duncan.

So we went to Germany for end abortion now to help start the work of rescuing children in Germany and of course, outside of Germany.

And so we had some pastors show up. We talked a bit about abortion and the abolition of abortion.

Let's talk about that. Tell everybody we've we've started breaking the ground in the work now in Germany.

But what's the status right now in Germany, culturally, in terms of the Christian faith and then leading into the issue of abortion?

Right. So, I mean, Germany used to be a Christian nation. And just recently, two years, three years ago or so, there was a new survey.

And for the first time, more than 50 % of the population said we are not identifying as Christians anymore.

So we are officially not a Christian nation anymore, if you want to look at the figures, right? But we still have some leftovers that might be odd for you.

For example, all our stores are closed on Sunday. Yeah, we were just talking about it. Like Chick -fil -A.

Yeah, exactly. That's literally how the conversation started. That's how it started. And then, you know, of those roughly 50 % that call themselves

Christians, most of them are Roman Catholics or part of the Lutheran state church. So most of them probably not really born again

Christians, not really Bible -believing Christians. So if you look at how many really Bible -believing

Christians you have in Germany, that's probably more about 1 to 2%. So really a small number.

And I think we got the same issues regarding abortion. It's probably very similar to what you got in the

US. Many children. I think it's about 100 ,000 children in Germany that are murdered every year.

And of course, the numbers are probably much higher. That's your official number, right?

And that's not really… I mean, there are, of course, some ministries, especially Roman Catholic ministries, that fight abortion in some way, but not really trying to abolish it, but more trying to reduce the numbers, right?

And we really want to do… We've been inspired by what you're doing with an abortion now.

And that's what we also want to do. We want to try to end abortion. I guess no one thinks that's a realistic goal, but we do.

It's not realistic maybe for us, but for the Lord. So we have to aim at that.

That's what we are starting now with your help. We're looking forward to the next conference in November.

You will visit us again. And we'll talk also about abortion again. We're trying to gather pastors from all over Germany and even beyond.

The German -speaking world also includes Austria and Switzerland. We're trying to gather them and try to start this work.

We're just working on tracts and a new website and so on to get this going. So tell everyone what makes it difficult to do what we do here for you guys.

Well, you have places where you know where ladies would go if they want to have an abortion.

And that's not what's happening in Germany. So it's difficult to find out where they go and so on.

So it's pretty anonymous. It's done in hospitals mainly. Sometimes also in other doctors' practices.

But you don't really know where it is done. And then what every woman has to do before being allowed to have an abortion.

They have to go to a counseling center where they will be counseled mostly into having an abortion, to be honest.

And you can find out where those centers are. So that's where you could be.

However, the German government is now trying to make a bubble zone of 100 meters.

You don't know what that is probably. But it's 30 feet or so. No, 300 feet.

So you're not allowed to approach any woman or even stand there and pray or hold up signs.

So they really want to protect these women who want to kill their babies. To not be disturbed by anyone trying to save their babies.

And the law is they have to go to the counseling center and then they have to wait 24 hours, is that correct? Yes. I think they even have to wait three days.

I'm not exactly sure on that. But I think they have to wait three days or so. So in some ways, that is actually better than what we have here.

Because we don't know ahead of time if they're going in for the abortion. The hard part is what you guys are discovering is you've gone to those places and no one's showing up.

So you don't know when they're coming. And now with the bubble zones, you can't get anywhere near them. So it's definitely a challenge.

You guys are trying to navigate as we speak. But Tobias preached a sermon on abortion and it got viral and we did some other things.

So we try to use the means we have just to reach the people. Excellent.

So in terms of culturally where you're at, would you say...

Okay, so in many respects, the United States, our Christian culture, there's different segments of it as I'm sure it's in Germany, a lot of nominalism.

You have a lot of heretical churches, those sorts of things. But I think there's also a very faithful church in the

United States of America. I think because of some bad views of the future, some bad theological commitments, like we're going to hear from Lincoln Duncan soon, some inconsistencies.

You have a lot of people who really, really want to see abortion ended. They would love to see it ended.

They're very strongly opposed to abortion. They would call it murder. But maybe they just don't know how to navigate that.

They would for sure want it ended without question. This is murder. It needs to end. But they're not necessarily out in the public square with that message.

They're giving money to organizations hoping that those organizations will solve the problem. But is it like that in Germany?

Is there a strong church commitment at least underneath where people would be opposed to the issue of abortion and really would like to see it ended?

Well, I believe that most Christians want to see it end. But it's not really a topic that anyone preaches about.

If you go on the internet or on YouTube and search for sermons on abortion in German, there are not many.

So that's why I preach on the topic recently because we need to get this out there. What we have that is pretty famous is we have a kind of a march for life.

So I think that happens once a year or so. Yeah. But that's mainly

Roman Catholics. They're carrying the images of Mary and so on and so forth. So yeah, but I think this is something that we really need to raise attention.

And we started this with your visit last year, September, and since then we are frequently contacted by brothers and sisters all around Germany.

Then they are asking us, okay, when does this really start? When can we become a part of that? So there is a need for something like that in Germany.

There are Christians who are really looking forward to that. They're ready to work. That's good to know. Praise the

Lord for that. So with that in mind, I do want to give our gratitude to all of you who have been part of the

Ministry of End Abortion now with us, many of you guys from the very, very beginning. You've prayed for us, you've given faithfully, but you've also even showed up at rallies or when we have bills happening across the country.

So I wanted to say thank you. And we wanted the guys on today because we also wanted to introduce you all to what you helped make happen.

And I do want to announce this. We've always wanted to make sure that End Abortion now as a ministry is a blessing to the church, that it offers assistance and equipping to the church, and we haven't wanted to be a burden on the church.

So everything that End Abortion now has been able to do for churches globally that go out to the abortion mills, we've been able to do completely for free and never tax that church in terms of, you know, we need something from you.

We've just given everything away from the very beginning. That has been our MO from the start. We want to bless the church, help the church.

We don't want to take from the church, local churches. We just want to give everything away. And so because of your faithful giving, you've made all that possible.

Because of your faithful giving, you've been making all these bills possible that are happening across the country that we're either getting in position and getting in, or we're assisting others with.

You've been a part of that. And now you're seeing two pastors from Germany. This is really just now breaking ground in Germany to start this work to save lives and establish justice for the pre -born.

But that entire trip itself, we want to thank our ministry partners with.

Because that entire trip, we kept the same mindset as we want End Abortion Now and Ministry of Apology of Church to be a blessing to the church and not something that taxes the church.

So you were able to fund the mission that took place in Germany to make all this possible, and it's underway.

So I want to always make sure we're showing gratitude to all of you guys who are a part of this ministry with us. And so everything you just heard about what's happening in Germany, it's because of your faithful giving.

And so thank you for that. And go to endabortionnow .com to get your church signed up so you can go out and save lives and get the training.

And also go to endabortionnow .com to go and to give there. We still have bills we're working on right now across the country.

I'm going to have to go to Kentucky and Louisiana and Alabama sometime in the next month or so to work on stuff we have happening in those states.

We've got stuff happening in Georgia right now. Josh Bice with G3 is helping tremendously with Georgia. And so stuff's happening consistently.

We'd have to have an entire show detailing all the things that are happening right now. But just go there and give and please be in prayer for us because it is a lot of work.

A lot of work with a very small crowd. So let's get into the conversation. You know, everybody knows if you've been watching

Apologia Radio or listening to it for any length of time you know that we're passionate about bringing the crown rites and the claims of the

Lord Jesus into conflict with the world and all of its spheres and all of its systems.

You know that at Apologia we are very much committed to an optimistic gospel view of the future.

We believe the Great Commission is not just wishful thinking. We believe that it's actually a command and it's a call because it's expected that the

Messiah is ultimately going to draw all the nations to God and that the knowledge of God will cover the earth like the waters cover the sea.

We believe those promises. We believe the promises of the Kingdom of God from both the Old and New Testaments that talk about God drawing the nations up to His mountain,

God's Torah, His law going forth from the people of God. We believe what we read at the beginning of the show today,

Isaiah chapter 42, that this is a process where the servant of the Lord will establish justice on the earth and He will not grow faint or weary until He's done so and that the coastlands are waiting for His Torah, His law.

We believe those things and we're committed to those things and we're trusting God for those things. You know that we're post -millennial.

You know that we're theonomic. We believe that God's law has abiding relevance today and so there's no secret we stand on these issues.

Obviously we're giving to you Dr. Greg Bonson's entire life life's work and all that stuff.

So you know where we're at. There's no mystery there and so quite often we have to engage with people who are trying to address the issue of God's law.

I mean even in instances like someone not as rigorous as Ligon Duncan you know like Andy Stanley.

You guys may have seen years ago I was able to have a radio show debate conversation with Andy Stanley who was arguing that we need to unhitch

Christianity or the New Testament from the Old Testament and so that circled around a number of issues related to the law of God, epistemology, how do you know what you know, all those things.

So whether it's with someone like Andy Stanley or whether it's some of the bigger name guys that are much more rigorous in their thinking you know that we've engaged this issue and we have to continue to do it.

But the issue of theonomy, I'll just introduce from our perspective as we talk about Ligon Duncan here, the issue of theonomy, if you're new to this you're like what does that even mean?

It's just two words put together, Theos, Namos, it just means God's law. And so that's what the word means.

Theonomy is theonomic ethics, God's law, ethics. It's a question of the abiding relevance of God's law under the new covenant with Christ ascended and seated on his throne.

New covenant in force, how much of the Old Testament law carries over? Now unless you're someone like Andy Stanley who's like unhitch at all, it's all not relevant, it's all not applying to us.

Most Christians would say yeah the law of God has some abiding relevance. Like I'd like people not to have sex with animals in a new covenant.

That's a good law from God's law, let's carry that one over. You know Christians will have a general idea of like well of course

God's law carries over. It's a question of like to what extent, what does this look like under the new covenant?

And so it becomes an important discussion especially in a time like now where like we just heard from our pastors from Germany have what were once Christian dominant nations who are now totally secular or majority secular, atheistic agnostic, whatever the case may be.

You've got that now as the current status. I mean you can look at the UK, you can look at the United States of America.

I mean early on the colonies are like the descendants of the Puritans, the Pilgrims, the Huguenots all those things. And they don't have any problem naming the triune

God of Holy Scripture in their charters, in their covenants with others. They don't have any problem naming the specific

Bible passage that they're referencing when it comes to like civil law and punishments.

I mean John Jay I always announce this, our first Supreme Court justice has no problem as our first Supreme Court justice literally giving

Bible references to the case law system that he's developing there. That's where we were and now we're not.

And now we're not. And so the question of God's law and it's abiding relevance today is especially important when you have that as the context.

A place where people once just assumed the authority of Scripture. They assumed the authority of Jesus.

They assumed the goodness of God's law. And now that's not the case and the wild thing to me is that you have men who are better thinkers than I'll ever be.

And that's not just an attempt at self -deprecation. I mean legitimately these guys are brilliant.

You'll have them making some pretty big mistakes on this question and which makes me think and we'll get into details as to why.

I mean I want to prove what I'm saying. Makes me think that they're being more carried along by tradition than they are by biblical or rational thinking.

And so that becomes a challenge and we have to address it because we've got guys wearing dresses and having beards walking around our streets.

I literally was going to buy these guys tacos. By the way, can we just go ahead and have a conversation real fast? This is way more important.

We've got German friends in town. We've got German friends in town. Okay? I wanted to give them because they're in Arizona. We've got some good taco places in Arizona.

Some people would argue better than San Diego but that's just, you know, that's some people. Sorry Desi and Zach.

But when you have Germans coming to Arizona near Mexico you have to give them as close to Mexican tacos as you can get.

And we have them in Arizona. We do. And so I planned for lunch to buy the guys some real good

Mexican tacos. And then I found out that Dr. White is taking them to what he calls a

Mexican restaurant tomorrow. And let's just be very, very clear about this.

Dr. White has never been to a Mexican restaurant. He goes to Taco Time which is

White and Delights. It's White People Taco Night. What's the other one?

He goes to Taco Time and he goes to Cafe Rio. Cafe Rio is not Mexican food.

It is White People Taco Night. That's what it is. And so he told the guys he's going to take them to Mexican and what he means is he's going to buy a cheesecake quesadilla and he's going to get chips and salsa at a

White People Taco Place. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with White People Taco Places. I'm just saying if you're going to have

Germans over, give them some real Mexican food. Give them some real Mexican food. Give them a taste of Mexico. They need some flavor.

They need some real stuff. He doesn't like flavor. Like when we went to Germany, it's hard to find a legit

German restaurant. But we still looked and they took us and they were like, you need to get this.

This is a German staple. They get this and they got us real German food. And so it's just, you should be offended.

Let me just say that. You should be offended and turn your nose up when James takes you to Cafe Rio. Actually I'm looking forward to it.

Sorry. It's good. It's just not real. And did we mention that we live in an area where there are a lot of Mexican restaurants?

No, they're not. Just joking. Are there really? Yeah. Didn't we go to one?

No, we didn't. I would never walk into it. If I'm in Germany, let me find a Mexican restaurant. Exactly.

Anyway, so I'm going to get tacos for the guys and as I'm parked at the stoplight I glance over and next to me is the most loud drag queen looking dude ever.

And I'm like, he is so obviously a dude, but he's trying very desperately to look like a woman.

Now that's our context. Can you imagine 50 years ago in this nation?

Someone walking around like that? Just 50 years ago. Wouldn't have got away with it. In terms of the kind of like what are you thinking?

How could you possibly live in this world? So much has changed. And so we have to ask the question these guys who oppose a theonomic view of ethics have to also answer the same question.

Are we saying in culture and society that the law of God should not be the dominant respected objective standard for culture and society around us?

Do we not want to have influence as the church in a gospel saturated way that transforms people's personal lives, their families, their schools the culture around about them?

Do we not believe that the gospels can do that or will do that? Are we so pessimistic in our eschatology that we just don't believe that all of these promises about what

God's going to do in the world they're not going to happen they can't happen?

And so that's why we need to have this discussion. Will the gospel transform the world? I think that's the question.

Will the gospel transform the world? I would say it already did. So if you think about the Germans, you know the

Vikings and so on. So it really changed everything. Absolutely everything. My people. This even binds in with the discussion we just had about abortion in Germany.

So what we have to do to really make the Christians understand that we have to aim for an abolition of abortion it has something to do with theology.

So you have to explain to them does the law of God apply today? Does it apply to the state? Should the state abide to God's law and not murdering babies?

Does the church have authority to speak into that? Or is it just politics and the church should keep out of those, right?

And also eschatology. So is there actually some hope that we will be able to accomplish this with just a futile attempt?

You're bringing up the point, Tobias, that the issue fundamentally comes down to a question of theonomy or autonomy.

And this is something that theonomists have been saying for a long time and I have yet to heard a coherent objection to that.

That it is ultimately God's law or self -law, man's law. And that comes to the, when you think of a government, which

God says is his deacon, his deacon, not the servant of another God, but God's own servant. Should the servant of God obey the son?

I seem to remember a psalm about that, psalm chapter 2 where the father says to obey the son or you'll perish.

Should the government actually have allegiance to Christ and to God's word and to God's law?

Or should they be committed to self -law, their own law? Or the law of some other

God? Look, isn't it obvious and apparent to everybody that that actually is the case today?

I mean early on in the history of just this nation they were appealing to the lordship of Christ it wasn't a utopia, it never was.

Where it's still this mustard tree growing into a tree, but mustard seed growing into a tree. But the point is there was at least the understanding and the commitment that we've got the

Bible, Christian culture, the lordship of Christ and that's just in the atmosphere and understood. But now we're living in a time where the state will explicitly say, we're not going to appeal to that book.

We won't appeal to that. We are going to be neutral in our perspective. We're going to do this by popular vote.

We'll decide what's right and wrong by popular vote, rather than having an objective standard outside of this culture and society and time and place.

They say it's us, we will decide. We'll be a law unto ourselves. That's essentially how we are managed and governed today.

And so, it's a real problem and there's some real important questions that need to be asked. And so, Ligon Duncan is on a show it's titled,

Thoughts on Theonomy and Christian Engagement with Culture Ligon Duncan. And the name of the show is

Room for Nuance. Room for Nuance. And I'll say before we start, I mean,

I have a lot of respect for Ligon Duncan. I might say did.

I mean, this entire show was just one pot shot after another. One comment.

Like, a lot of stuff's being said. No evidence of claims. No scripture. It's just one claim after another.

And this part we're going to play here towards the end was, it was shockingly bad. Yeah, it's sad. I've really benefited from a lot of stuff

Ligon has done over the years. So, it's sad. And look, we all have holes. We all have gaps. We're all messed up somewhere in our thinking and theology.

But it is it's sad to see someone with as brilliant a mind as Ligon make such very big mistakes here.

And so, we're gonna we're gonna review. You know, I wrote on Theonomy as a young professor at RTS in the early 1990s.

You know, Greg Bonson wrote Theonomy and Christian Ethics while he was a professor at RTS Jackson in the mid -1970s.

So, Theonomy was a ground -zero kind of issue when I came to RTS Jackson. And so,

I had to develop a lecture for it in my ethics course. And that eventually became a book which

I finished in 1995 or 1996. But by that time, Theonomy was already in retreat in reform circles.

Okay, let's talk. So, here's the situation.

If you look into the details of the situation that arose with Dr.

Bonson's Theonomy and Christian Ethics, RTS, Westminster, there was a big scuffle over it because and this is the truth that book is unassailable.

Nobody has provided a biblically solid, coherent, logical refutation of Dr.

Bonson's thesis in that book. You can't do it. Ligon hasn't done it. Westminster didn't do it.

Their response Westminster's response to Theonomy and Christian Ethics was so embarrassing that last I heard they don't even carry it in their bookstore any longer.

It was a terrible, terrible engagement with the book and to this very day there has not been a coherent response and refutation of Dr.

Bonson's major thesis in Theonomy and Christian Ethics. And so, and I will say,

I know a bit of the history I was a kid when all this was going on but I have studied, I've talked to people who were involved

I will say that it was the theonomists who were responding back to those who were trying to refute

Theonomy and offering public critiques of their critiques and saying let's have this out, let's talk let's engage this issue and ultimately

I would say that these guys did not provide the kind of response that they really owed to it.

And so it was messy people know that. It was definitely messy because it created no small stir in the reformed world but no in some respects

I would say that you know I'm not going to pretend that I can have certainty here but I will say

I would disagree with Ligon on this point in terms of like it's in retreat I would say no there just wasn't the internet yet like we have today because through the internet and the ease of communication the ease of sharing information and shows and articles and all those things you know you just didn't necessarily see a large community of theonomists like you do now.

And I will say this for sure without question and I don't think this is really disputable since the beginning of Apologia radio and of course all that Moscow was starting to put out with Doug and the guys there when we have easier access to spread information and to have these shows and to have lectures go out globally yeah the message of theonomy has blown up.

It really has blown up and become the controversy that he's referring to now I think in many ways because you're seeing it now as much as you are because of the internet and because of the ease of information sharing and of course in many respects because of what

God has done through Apologia radio and Apologia church and engaging these issues and of course our friends in Moscow which

I actually like their mood but he makes some more mistakes here along the way unless you want to add something.

Well this is one of those pot shots I was talking about that people that despise the law of God this is one of the things they always go do they act as if well when

Bonson died we buried theonomy like it's been gone for all this time and all of a sudden it's back and he even refers to it like the zombies here like it's like come on and the truth is why

I think there's been a resurgence in this theology is because we are providing the answers to the culture that no one else is

Christians are hungry for those answers and the bible has them. Exactly and that's why it's growing it's not because we're zombies and all of a sudden we're back from the dead so that just when people make those comments they just irritate me.

And with respect to Ligon theonomy didn't go away because of any of their critiques of theonomy and it certainly didn't go away because of Dr.

Greg Bonson these guys have not provided a well reasoned biblical compelling argument against the thesis of either

Rush Dooney or Bonson and any of those or what the Puritans taught and believed my goodness and that's going to come up here in a moment here pretending like this is this new thing that popped up in church history and then the guy accidentally mentions the

Puritans it's like oh it's not so new then is it so let's get right into it. I put it on the shelf and I thought this will never be relevant again for the rest of my life.

And then the internet. Then behold you know from the last seven years or so you know

I see the zombie coming out of the grave. With force. And so I actually

Jonathan Lehman reached out and asked if we could republish some of that material in the Nine Marks magazine on reconstructionism.

I said absolutely and I will say just in terms of let's make a historical note here we we would see ourselves as standing on the shoulders of giants whether it's the

Puritans other Christians in history the Covenanters my goodness this is not new the

Covenanters what was their perspective? Was it theonomic? I think so. When you think about the history of theonomy and how

Christians have applied God's law on culture and society we stand on the shoulders of giants

I'm not even going to pretend to even think that I would have something to contribute in terms of writing a book on theonomy that could outdo

Rush Dooney's work or outdo Dr. Bonson's work there is no way. People have said you should write a book on this and I'm thinking it's already been written just go read that stuff but with that in mind in terms of the zombie coming back all the great works have already been written and not responded to in a way that is compelling at all but what you see now is as a result

I believe in many respects of what Christchurch is doing Doug and his cultural engagement and how he's responding to these issues and as a result of our work and so when he says in the last 7 years my goodness it's blown up I would say it's a little more than 7 years

I would put it more like 2010 is where you really start seeing this big because we're providing the answers and so I think much of what he's talking about this resurgence and all this big thing it's like well much of that has to do with two ministries providing the answers that are meaningful that Christians want to hear and they say does the

Bible address that and then that's how God has spoken I want to believe that so I think making a historical note yeah over the last decade you've seen a big movement towards the goodness of God's law and it's abiding relevance today and I think much of that has to do with what

God has done through two ministries in particular but I'll be honest the work that developed this it took place much much farther back than us we're just standing on the shoulders of giants saying what

Christians have said for centuries before we even got here I would say we're more popularizers than we are the thinkers like Rush Doody and that's why you're seeing what you're seeing is just saying okay here's the issue here's how the

Bible addresses that and Christians I think go that's good that's a better answer than I don't have an answer and that's a better answer than self law and that's a better answer than this is perfectly fine this devil's statue thing in the

Iowa capital we're just going to have a bunch of different gods here we show allegiance to it's a better answer go ahead

I can add something from German history or European history because you already said this is not a new thing that just developed with Barnes and maybe that brought it back on screen but this is actually how

Europe how Germany functioned for centuries now I'm also a trained lawyer and when I look at our laws the criminal code also of course they kept changing it for decades now but it was very very biblical even civil law to the point when are you allowed to divorce your wife and so on so it was through and through biblical law so this is not something new

Germany functioned on that assumption that God's law is valid and the state the state is subject the king is subject to God and to his law so he better make laws for his country just curious is your constitution was that originally based on English common law as well or was it even before that so our current constitution is quite new it's after world war 2 oh right so going back further though yes going back further and Germany wasn't really one united state until 1871 so it consists of many principalities and so on but even those so the criminal code

I think and also the civil code they come from the time around the 1870s and it's through it's just the bible everywhere those old school theonomists pesky old theonomists it's amazing to me

I think that's probably one of the greatest struggles I have when you have again brilliant men making claims about history and Christian history that are just fundamentally just not true

I mean Christian history is a glorious mess you're going to see moments of just greatness and also just terrible faceplants and so we have to be careful when we just sort of broad brush at times like we got to recognize no there was differences here differences here but to make the claim this is somehow like this is just this not reformed thing which just blows my mind it's not reformed or it's some new thing

I mean how deep do you want to go back into church history and demonstrate that every single place you have examples of people as they're bringing the gospel into places just assuming the goodness of God's law and the authority of God's law as so you know they understood they were evangelizing a nation and once that nation comes under the feet of Jesus whose law are they going to obey?

the law of God or the law of some other God it's just you see this assumption throughout church history differences of opinion of course at different levels and interpretations of the law of God but the idea that this is somehow some new thing that Dr.

Bonson brought in or Rush Dooney brought in and some weird abnormal view of the law of God is just not true it's just not true and people need to stop saying it realized

I need to address that again so I would say that theonomy and the larger reconstruction movement around it was a well meaning but misguided cultural overreaction to some theological things in American culture and North Bonson the original folks that sort of spread the word the dominant the

I'm sorry that is just an inaccurate representation of what was going on Rush Dooney was an incredible thinker my goodness the man read a book a day throughout his entire adult life and remembered most of what he read in these books he had a brilliant mind and I'm sorry that's just not a fair representation of Rush Dooney when you read

Rush Dooney's work it's exegetical in nature and so his major works are exegetical in nature whether it's the institutes of biblical law whatever the case may be it's exegetical in nature it's actually applying it's exegeting the text of the law of God it's explaining it's original intention and meaning and then showing how the principles carry out and yes there was some cultural engagement and we're talking about Rush Dooney's writing you're looking like the 70's and the 60's and 70's his work is primarily exegetical but it's also practical it's like here's what the law meant here's how it would apply to culture and society and I would say yes when you get into the moral majority and the early conservative stuff that was going on in the 80's and those sorts of things maybe some of those people picked up on theonomy

I don't think that it was like they were a bunch of theonomists so connecting those movements of like the

Reagan era and the moral majority and those conservatives and all that stuff those people weren't self conscious theonomists

I think that they understood there was a problem in culture and yes they were influenced by guys like Francis Schaeffer and those kinds of guys that were not exegetical in nature in terms of what

Bonson and Rush Dooney were doing but they were more principle issues world view issues and that helped but I wouldn't describe it in any way as like a big burst of theonomy with those

Christians and an over reaction to culture because I don't think that theonomy at that point was all that popular it was really in the stages like you said putting it back up on the screen like you know

Christians historically have seen the law like this and here's what the law actually says and so I wouldn't agree with Ligon's description of that.

Well even again he's making it sound like Rush Dooney and Bonson and North he's like the original guys like it started there

I'm like well you realize that Rush Dooney's ministry is called Chalcedon for a reason the council of Chalcedon I just looked up so I had the date was 451 so like this isn't like some new thing that he just came up with like he's going pretty far back in time here.

Yeah and they didn't see Bonson, Rush Dooney, North Demar none of those guys who were writing at that time didn't see what they were doing as anything novel they weren't saying anything novel as a matter of fact that's one of the things you just constantly struck with when you read

Bonson or Rush Dooney is you get to finally make a connection with the past you make a connection with Christians in history things you didn't even know about like you know that's what

I really appreciated so much and it was just like so inspiring when you read like Mission of God by Dr. Joe Boots is that he demonstrates like look here's

Canada's charter here's what Canada says and it's like Lordship of Christ and the Kingdom of Christ and all this stuff and historically he demonstrates that this is nothing new we're not serving you something novel and new here we're actually arguing let's go back in Christian history to a more rigorous understanding of the law of God and so I just don't

I never have been able to respect or appreciate when men that are great thinkers make these kinds of mistakes because here's the deal look

I know I make mistakes too I absolutely do but I think we want to fight to represent our opponents as accurately as we possibly can to understand their position as good as they do so we can argue their position and faithfully represent it it's one of the things that Dr.

White has taught me from being a young man to where I'm at now is you need to know your opponent's position and accurately represent them otherwise you're not arguing anything meaningful and I would say this is not helpful it's not really advancing the conversation or engaging of evangelicalism in those days was dispensational antinomianism and so it's almost like okay we're going to do the opposite and a lot of neutral public square talk yeah and then at the same time there was a gradual rise of the sort of conservative movement in America through you know from before Reagan through Reagan and then the moral majority and a lot of these folks ended up being advisors to some you know fairly significant public figures and politicians and I think

Gary North, Ron Paul actually it's interesting love

Ron Paul and we've had him on the show I think two times Ron Paul when he used to do his

Ron Paul report or daily report or whatever when he does it in front of the library the picture of his library behind him if you look at the library behind him you'll see

Rush Dooney's Institutes of Biblical Law behind him so when you have like Ron Paul talking about liberty and talking about end the

Fed and end the IRS and just war theory and all these different things it's like yeah he got that because he was educated under Gary North and Rush Dooney so Ligon is right about that there was a there was a very optimistic post millennial expectation that we're going to not only take back this country we're actually going to establish you know a you know a theonomic we're really doing it the

Puritans would be proud there you go so not so new is it and I think that speaks volumes to the conversation that's such an amazing admission when you're talking about something as a zombie and you're talking about something that like oh this thing happened you got these

Rush Dooney and North and Bonson then it basically died and then you grant the

Puritans would be proud it's like did you hear what you just said so this is not so new is it and it's not such a strange thing in Christian history to have

Christians with an understanding that my job is to gospelize the world around me to spread the gospel to see transformation and of course at that point to actually advance the idea that we should teach people to obey

Jesus I mean that's in reality and even besmirching the idea that these people actually believe they're going to win the world with the gospel and people are going to want to obey

God's law they really think they're going to do that like let's get them and you go wait a second are we reading the same

Bible because I thought that was the goal I mean what do we do we raise up missionaries to go live dangerous risky godly lives in a foreign nation where they could lose their lives lose their family children can die of starvation whatever like we're really going to raise them up to say alright go do this and I guarantee you failure like you know give it a it's like I promise you're going to lose the game here and you know we're not really going for like a total victory here but lots of luck to you

I know hope you fare well one thing that it's very subtle but the way he even worded that shows that he has the typical misunderstanding of theonomy because the way he worded it it's as if we're trying to change things top bottom and no theonomist believes that we've been abundantly clear on that it's from the bottom up it starts with the gospel and we're just trying to be faithful with the gospel and what

God says about law and justice and morality that's that's all we're not trying to change things top bottom and the way he said that shows that he doesn't understand that well and it's important because Rush Juney always made that point the

Puritans always make those points they of course they believe that it was regeneration they were reformed for goodness sakes

Bonson always taught that and of course every theonomist has always as you've said refuted the idea that we're trying to sort of impose the law of God on culture and society and that's how we're going to like change the world like with the law of God no it's through the hearts change through the gospel hearts change in regeneration they don't change because of the law of God however and this is so vital to get it's so vital to get it's true that we cannot change the world through the law of God okay however every image bearer of God on earth is accountable to the law of God otherwise the gospel is meaningless if unbelievers globally are no longer accountable to the law of God then there's nothing to call them to repent of so the law of God is still premier before the entire world and a matter of fact when you go to preach the gospel to people what are you telling them you've fallen short of the glory of God you've missed the mark you've violated

God's law you're guilty before a holy God therefore you need to repent and believe the gospel here's who

Christ is here's what Christ has accomplished you can only have forgiveness and peace with God in him through faith but your main issue here is that you're a rebel in God's kingdom and you need to turn from your sin towards the living

God turn your face towards God and away from your sin your sin means that you have violated God's law so while we absolutely believe the law of God can never transform the world the world is still accountable to the law of God at government level at church level at family level at personal level it's everybody's still accountable to the law of God period and so that's when a theonomic

Christian like myself goes to a state legislature you'll see it I've sat before legislatures on behalf of the preborn and bills of equal protection and abolition and what am

I saying to them you are accountable to God God commands you to do justice here

I call you to repent and turn to Christ through faith for salvation I call them with a gospel call and I tell them their duty before God which scripture says is their duty before God to actually be

God's servant and they're accountable to God so I'm bringing the law of God to challenge them and hopefully bring them under conviction but then am

I giving them the hope of the gospel but they're still accountable to God's law God still requires the civil magistrate to be just and if you ask the question well what is justice

I'd say there's a whole book about that and it's even written on their hearts so everyone knows that this is the law of God and what

I find interesting you know when they think it's ridiculous that we believe that we can actually succeed with this you know that we can actually succeed with a great commission you know what does

Christ say when he gives the great commission he says I'll be with you with all authority on earth so why it is ridiculous to believe that all authority on earth can really accomplish this but we're not saying we are accomplishing this we're saying

Christ is accomplishing this and he has all authority here so he can do it right nothing ridiculous and you know this whole idea of like again besmirching the idea that you know we're going to see the world being transformed because of the gospel people obeying

God's law I mean that's kind of the great commission like Tobias said there all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me that was given 2000 years ago

Jesus said that he already has it so that means that Jesus has authority over all of our governments today he said he had it it says he's the king over all the kings of the earth he's king of kings and lord of lords scripture teaches us that Jesus has all authority right now on earth meaning that our civil magistrates have to obey

Jesus I mean I'm not sure why that's controversial also by the way this is important we can't neglect those promises about the kingdom of God in the old and new testaments like again

I read one of them at the beginning of the show and what you see in say Isaiah 42 and Isaiah chapter 2 is that the law of God the

Torah is a constituent element of the kingdom of the Messiah in Isaiah 42 that I said

I read at the beginning of the show it says the servant of the Lord is going to establish justice on the earth and he will not grow faint or weary until he's done so it says the coastlands wait for his law interesting that prophecy about Christ and his kingdom says that the coastlands are waiting for what not just salvation they're waiting for his

Torah his instruction his law in Isaiah chapter 2 glorious promise of the kingdom of the

Messiah says that the nations are going to stream up to God's mountain and it says that the law will go forth from Zion so again there's two passages more could be demonstrated that the law of God is a constituent element of God's promises about the kingdom of the

Messiah in the world and so this whole thing of like these people actually believe this is going to happen it's like well we have we have it on good authority that it is that it is going to happen the complete nature of the new covenant is about having the law written on our heart yeah so he mentioned it has something to do with culture and of course it has because we didn't have to talk about that 60 70 years ago because our culture was still influenced the law was still influenced by God's law so now it's becoming an issue and you know you've said that many times it's not a question whether but which so there will be a law governing a country yeah there will be a religion and ideology a

God governing what the law will be so that's really important okay we see now what happens when it's not the law of God but the law of some other

God some demon so and now we see that and we understand we need to have some answers to that you said it already right we need answers to that we need to respond to that and so it's not the question whether there will be some

God some religion some law governing our laws there will be the question is will it be the law of God where will be the gods of the law of demons that's right and here is where Ligon I think goes into some more detail on this point in terms of like he makes the same mistakes that many people have made in their critiques of theonomy in terms of he's really going after sacralism or the blending of the church and the state which theonomists have argued forcefully against and so that I think that was the background

I think what's happening now we've never been further away from that possibility in our culture than we are now and just like the abortion abolition movement you know

Roe V Wade gets struck down and suddenly there's an abortion abolition movement this one hurts

Ligon if anyone gets this in front of brother Ligon brother that was one of the most inaccurate statements you could have possibly made we were actually abolitionists we believe in equal protection for all humans from fertilization we want to see the absolute abolition of abortion we were working for years before Roe was overturned as abolitionists promoting abolitionism and actually having bills written and put into state legislatures that actually specifically said in the bill not only was it saying equal protection for all humans from fertilization what's in the womb is in the image of God it's a very theonomic law there by the way but it also said in our bills for the state legislature and civil magistrate in that state to ignore

Roe V Wade so there wasn't an abolitionist movement that really rose after Roe V Wade it was active in moving and writing bills and saying ignore

Roe V Wade because Roe V Wade was not a law our law is pretty clear about that that congress creates law in our nation not the supreme court the supreme court can't operate as supreme being we we christians have thankfully developed a doctrine

Lex Rex in history that argued very strongly that it is the transcendent isn't

Ligon a presby yes he's presbyterian Samuel Rutherford Ligon Lex Rex the law of God is transcendent it's ultimate it's not the king is law it's the law is king

Samuel Rutherford he's one of your home boys and I mean really he's a giant but you know we were arguing before Roe that Roe was a court opinion that needed to be resisted by lesser magistrates that it was unjust it was a violation of God's law it was inconsistent and needed to be rejected and they needed to do with Roe what some states did in the

Dred Scott case and that is tell the Supreme Court your declaration is wicked and evil and we will not obey that opinion and go pound sand we were saying before Roe was overturned as abolitionists in our bills that we had in legislatures ignore

Roe versus Wade so this whole idea of like Roe's over and then this abolition movement pops up it's like that is not the case

I can introduce you to the people who have been arguing for God's law and abolition who go way back to the rescue days yeah so it's just completely

Ligon you got that wrong that's completely inaccurate not to mention the fact that we paid for the amicus brief attached to that Supreme Court ruling we didn't just magically poof appear into air after that yeah the

Dobbs case we actually funded the Dobbs case amicus brief with Bradley Pierce constitutional attorney and we can have it sent to you this didn't arise after Roe we've been here long before and I would go even one step further

God blesses faithfulness so if there hadn't been any abolitionist Christian abolitionist movements before I'm not sure whether Roe v.

Wade would still be in place because I believe because you are working towards this

God is blessing this right and there's more he says here on this too like where were you like for the last 50 years while Evangelical pro -life people were out here you know scraping and clawing and trying to do what they could do to Ligon that's bad brother and I'm sorry you need to be corrected here there have been faithful abolitionists and preachers against this evil through the duration of Roe v.

Wade actually what you're arguing for that pro -life establishment that pro -life movement argues that it is fundamentally not

Christian the leaders of the top Ligon will tell you we can give you their interviews we've done with them we can give you their writings what they've said that they're not

Christian organizations they're arguing the basis of just basic biology they're not having any allegiance to Christ they're not calling people to repentance and faith and they have argued the movement you're arguing for these people clawing and scratching and everything else from the very top argue that they do not want a woman ever to be criminalized or punished for taking the life of her child in the womb they actually want legal immunity and impunity for women who take the lives of their children in their womb that is not a conspiracy that is not an exaggeration that is what they argue in their laws that is what they have argued against our bills that they want legal immunity and impunity for women who take the lives of their children in their womb and so actually there has been a major problem over the last 50 years of Roe vs.

Wade and that was inconsistency and un -Christian commitments actually I would argue it was the lack of theonomic commitments and it was the problem of neutrality both things that Bonson argued strongly for that caused the problem in the pro -life movement and stunted true justice because look

God's law says you shall show no partiality the pro -life movement has literally legislated partiality for 50 years and they're still doing it with Roe gone they're still arguing for partiality which

God says is an abomination, unequates in measures abomination and so this gets to a main point why am

I harping on this? Here's the reason I am is because what you're being told is that we don't need an objective standard given to us from the law word of God we don't need that, it's not abiding and relevant today in the

Christian era and we can live as Christians in a place where there's just this neutrality we don't need people to have allegiance to Christ and his lordship and the law of God we can live in this world as Christians faithfully and ignore the law of God and actually pretend neutrality that's essentially what

I'm hearing from Ligon here as you hear him describing why theonomy is bad and I want to say we need to believe our

Bibles when Jesus teaches us that that's not possible, him saying he has all authority in heaven and on earth

I believe means that, he has it today and when he says you're either with me or you're against me, I believe that too

Jesus doesn't allow neutrality in relationship with him and you have to have total allegiance to him and so I would say there's major errors in the applications that Ligon is trying to make here and also this argument only works for America, right?

so there is no Roe V Wade in Germany, nothing was overturned in Germany and in all other countries, right?

this argument could only be true for America but not for the rest of the world and there are other theonomists, there are other abolition movements in other countries as well that's right, that's exactly right to roll back

Roe V Wade, same thing with reconstructionism just like you were saying, friends from other countries look at this talk to your

Chinese friends how impractical is this? Oh, this is a major error this is a major error

I thought that the Great Commission started with the declaration, all authority in heaven and on earth has been that's past tense, given to me on that basis, therefore go, make disciples right, so you know the

Great Commission but it starts with the all authority claim and when you bring up the issue of China I would say,

I dare you to say that to Pastor Wang Yi's face that they don't think like this and they don't see the world that way because Pastor Wang Yi is somewhere, hopefully somewhere in China right now locked up away from his family, away from his church and why?

Well, you can google it, look up the Chinese Communist Party look up the

Chinese government's official declaration as to why Pastor Wang Yi is under arrest and suffering in a prison cell or dungeon somewhere and they specifically said it is because Pastor Wang Yi, in his preaching on Sundays, would specifically say that the

Chinese Communist government was under the authority of Jesus, and so they put him in jail for the very thing you say

Chinese people don't think about. They put him in jail because they said he was trying to subvert the authority of the

Chinese state. So here is that, by the way, he's Presbyterian Pastor Wang Yi was Presbyterian, not even

Baptist and that Presbyterian faithful man of God proclaimed the authority of Christ in the same way they got the early

Christians in so much trouble in the first century, because what were they unwilling to say? They were unwilling to say that Caesar is

Lord. They were saying that Jesus is Lord. And so the early Christians, Pastor Ligon, you know this.

The early Christians were not killed and persecuted and martyred and all the rest because they worshipped a man named

Jesus. They were specifically persecuted because the word got out that they were saying that Christ has authority over Caesar and Caesar cannot have a competitor and neither can the

Chinese Communist government and neither can North Korea and isn't it interesting that when all these nations really come into contact with a faithful representation of the gospel and Christianity they throw those

Christians in jail. Why? You're saying that we have to obey this Jesus? So this whole idea of like try telling the

Chinese Christian church that the goal is all of China under the feet of Jesus. Yeah, Ligon, they believe that.

They actually believe that and Pastor Wang Yi is suffering in jail today for the very thing you think

Chinese Christians don't believe or aren't trying to do. When you say it's impractical in China.

Well, I think it was impractical 2 ,000 years ago. It was impractical in Rome. That's why they died. It was impractical in Germany 1 ,500 years ago or so.

But we believe and I'm sure Chinese Christians believe that Christ is king over China.

So why should it be impractical if the one who has all authority rules over China? Why should he not be able to do this?

That's right. Amen. He just said everything that took me 10 minutes to say in 30 seconds. And sounded more angry about it.

Germans are very precise. They're very precise. This is like where you have a distinction of like within the church walls you talk about the sovereignty of God.

This man is a Presbyterian. He is a Presbyterian. He is reformed. He is Calvinistic.

He believes in the sovereignty of God. In the walls of the church, Ligon teaches doctrines of grace.

He teaches on the authority of God and the sovereignty of God over all things. Every single detail.

That's what he believes in the walls of the church. But get him out of the church and start talking about the world out there.

And all of a sudden it's just impractical to think that the all sovereign God can actually transform the entire world and have the knowledge of God covering the earth like the waters cover the sea.

Or that he shall have dominion from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth. Or that Shiloh is going to come and to him shall be the obedience of the nations.

Or Abraham, you're going to have descendants as numerous as the stars. It'll be like the sand on the seashore. It's really impractical to think that the sovereign all powerful

God is going to do that. Do you see the problem? Are we seeing the problem? I see it and that's why I don't believe it.

I don't buy it. This whole idea of impractical. Do we send missionaries out like that? It's just very impractical for you to think that you're going to actually have an impact.

At the Easter pageant with over 100 ,000 people in attendance, they don't want to hear you. They don't like you being there.

It's very impractical for you to think that you're going to have an impact there. And we've gone for years and years and years and seen thousands upon thousands upon thousands of Mormons come to the true knowledge of Jesus Christ because we don't live by what's practical or impractical.

We live by principle and we live by like hanging on the promises of God. Why are we doing all these efforts?

Why are we saying all these things? Because this is the word of God and because God has the power to execute it. How many examples can we get?

I mean, let's talk about William Carey going to India. How impractical was that to stop burning those ladies and widows and so on.

It was impossible, absolutely impossible and he made it. He changed the whole country in some way.

That's what we believe. We believe that God can do what's impractical. Wasn't it just St. Patrick's Day? St.

Patrick's Day? I think the Irish have something to say about that. When he started saying impractical that's just pure pragmatism.

Like nowhere in scripture do we say do we see do this, this and this if it's practical.

Where's your faith? Yeah, like that one word to me defined where he's at not only on this position but on a lot of stuff since he wrote the forward to the woke church like he's now shifted to pragmatism.

Well, this isn't really practical in our culture so I'm not going to go there. I'm not interested in pragmatism or practical

I'm interested in principle and I'm interested in seeing the power of God at work and I want to trust that.

And I know Lincoln Deepdown does as well. My point is that he's got an error here where all this is coming into conflict with the rest of what he knows is true.

The rest of the world even think in these ways. And so again, you can be really brave and you can have these really strong opinions and you can think you're really pure and you're the one true believer in everyone's midst and...

Another pot shot. Oh, that's just, we shouldn't do that to each other because I don't know of any theonomist that talks like that and if I did talk to them

I'd confront them over such a thing. The fact of the matter is I actually think we're in the infancy of the church and I think the church is still being sanctified collectively on a lot of issues.

There never has yet been a major reformational moment like Nicaea, like the

Athanasian Creed, like many times in church history, even the reformation itself on the Sola Scriptura and issues like the

Doctrines of Grace. There's never been in the history of the church this big moment where we actually really hash out this issue of the abiding relevance of God's law and maybe and I hope this is the case,

I'm not a prophet, but maybe this moment we're in now with so much degradation of the human condition and so much immorality and evil and so much degeneracy, maybe the church will finally wake up to no,

God's given us a book where we have answers to these things and this is not the way we're supposed to be living. Maybe this is the start of that conversation where we're actually going to as the church collectively move through a reformation moment on this issue of the law of God.

I hope so. I really hope so. There's no possibility of this being implemented in any possible world.

Matthew 28. How about the world that God created? Matthew, I'm going to just encourage you all to go read the last few sentences of Matthew chapter 28 or read the opening chapter of the book of Romans and then the last chapter.

Look at how Paul bookends his systematic explanation of the gospel in both parts.

The beginning and the end. He says that the ultimate goal is to bring about the obedience of faith or the obedience that comes from faith and to bring all the nations to God.

That's how Paul explained it. That's what he thought. That was the feasible world that he envisioned.

I think it was very impossible for a German monk to turn the world upside down.

To fight against the Pope and all the princes and the emperor.

Many times in church history exactly that has happened. It was a world where this was impossible and it happened.

With a guy who thought maybe he's alone. The only guy left.

Beer drinking theologian that talked a lot about farts. He did.

Weird, huh? It's even better in German. Is it really? I'll take your word for that.

That's one thing that's going on. Theologically, theonomic reconstructionism is not a reformed view.

They will go back and try and cite magisterial reformers and they will cite them incorrectly.

It is true Can we have some evidence of that, please? Here's the receipts on that. I'd like to see the receipts on that.

When you say that it's not reformed, Ligon, brother, brother, that's just not a fair assessment.

How many reformed people do we need to point to that have written extensively in history on this issue?

Men in your tradition, men who wrote your confession of faith that were theonomic to the core on this issue.

There's representation throughout all church history on this. It's just not true. It's always this thing.

It happens a lot. The reformed community, I love reformed theology. I believe it's biblical. But the reformed community, sometimes we just do some stupid stuff and we say some stupid things.

The reformed community always wants to have the truly reformed. We're the truly reformed. It's not recognizing the catholicity within the reformed faith and the wide variety of opinions on some of the adiophora and some of the side issues.

But you're not going to find any shortage of giants in the reformed tradition that are through and through theonomic.

And are you going to say they're not reformed? Are you going to say men who wrote the Westminster Confession of Faith, your

Confession of Faith that were clearly theonomic in how they viewed things, are you going to say they're not reformed?

They wrote your Confession of Faith. What do you mean not reformed? Were the Puritans not reformed?

I mean, are we really going to argue this? The Covenanters? Not reformed? Those people were far more reformed and get more reformed trophies than I have.

And so to say that this is just not reformed is just another example of what happens in the reformed community many times is everyone wants their crew to be the truly reformed and I think that we just need to not do that with each other.

We need to just have a graciousness and respect the catholicity that we have within the reformed faith and we shouldn't make comments like this that are just demonstrably false.

There was a shift in the 16th and 17th century Reformation in its views of church -state relations and its views of how the

Ten Commandments were to be applied in society. And it is true that there was a shift from Britain to America in the reformed community.

So Baptists and Presbyterians were being thrown in jail in the American colonies by Anglicans and by Congregationalists.

And Baptists and Presbyterians thought, you know, it's really not a good idea for Massachusetts Bay Colony to be a

Congregationalist establishment thing where we get thrown into prison or Virginia to be an Anglican colony where we get thrown into prison.

We actually believe in freedom of the exercise of religion.

And what religion did they believe in the freedom of exercising? It was the

Christian religion. And what you're referring to here, Ligon, is you're referring to the thing that has been addressed over and over and over again in the writings of Rush Dooney and Bonson and of course even going all the way back into the

Covenanters and their disputes with the king. Yes, this issue of sacralism and this issue of the blending of the church and state relationship making it one is a major issue and the reason, guess what, the reason

I get to complain about that is because of theonomy. You see, when you say it's not good for the church and state to be one,

I would say, okay Ligon, brother, by what standard are you saying that's bad? Because some people got hurt by it?

That's not an argument that actually is a coherent argument because it got some people hurt. I'm asking on what basis, by what standard do you say that a church and state together, right, a blending of the church and the state, that that's wrong?

I'm saying that it's actually the law of God that condemns it and Bonson has an entire chapter on this in his book,

Theonomy and Christian Ethics, where he argues and demonstrates from scripture that when that line between church and state was breached in the law of God, that God actually gave serious curses and consequences for it, like leprosy, like try to actually blend church and state in the

Old Testament and God actually confronts that and condemns it. So actually it's theonomy that gives you the basis to argue against the blending of the church and the state.

And by the way, that is exactly precisely what people were arguing against in the early colonies. They were arguing we do not want a

Church of England situation where you've got a blending of the church and the state or we have in other places in history. That's not good.

That's dangerous. That's against the law of God. We need a state that obeys Jesus in their sphere and we need a church that obeys

Jesus in their sphere. We don't want a situation where the church and state are now glued together in basically the same institution.

That could be dangerous for a lot of people and I'll tell you one thing for sure, what those early Christians in the colonies were not arguing for with freedom of religion is that people should be building mosques downtown or building satanic temples downtown because we just want olly olly oxen free freedom of religion.

That's not what they meant by freedom of religion. When they argued for the separation of church and state, that was a Christian doctrine that Christians developed in history.

Separation of church and state is a Christian doctrine. They did not mean the separation of Jesus and state. They never meant that.

And freedom of religion then did not mean, yeah, you can set up altars to Satan in the state capital.

Those Christians did not believe that, would not have allowed that. So it is a misrepresentation,

I believe, of our own history in this nation to argue in this way. It's just a misrepresentation.

Yeah. And that's a good thing, not a bad thing. It's not infidelity and pluralism.

It's a good thing for the gospel because you don't want people having their consciences forced in the most important area of all of life.

And you've got all of the history of the religious wars behind that. And so there's a real sense

Stop. I wonder I wonder if the apostle

Paul at the Areopagus, Mars Hill, I wonder when he confronts their idolatry and says, you all know the

God that I'm talking about. You even built an altar to him, the unknown God over here. I wonder at the end of that discourse where he says, and now

God commands men everywhere to repent. Christ is the judge.

He's going to judge the world and God commands you to repent. I wonder if he was forcing their consciences there at the

Areopagus. I feel like he was. I feel like he was. What I think he's doing here ultimately is this is like a shot at Christian nationalism.

This is assuming that all theonomists want sacralism like you were talking about.

They were trying to force people's consciences to obey the gospel through the law of God.

That's what he's assuming in that statement there. Again, it's just do your homework brother.

We've obviously spent a lot of time trying to tear that whole idea apart there.

When we visited you guys, we went and saw the fear hole. That was the very thing I call Lutheran nationalism. That was the very thing that they were having an issue with then.

That's not what we're saying and we've been very clear about that's not what we're saying. He's just not doing his homework.

I think he said the alternative is not pluralism. What is the alternative? If it's not the law of God, what is the alternative?

I think we see the alternative right now in our culture. I don't think that's a good alternative.

I think we should probably finish there. We've been going on for a long time. That's a good place to stop.

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No. What do we have in here? We're about to go shooting after this. We have AR -15s.

We got shotguns. Everyone here at the studio is armed. Welcome to America, boys.

Yes. Actually, you know, many outside the US would oppose this.

They would say, well... During COVID, I understood that this is actually a good thing that you're allowed to bear arms.

Because how could you defend yourself against tyrants? That's right. Thank God for that Christian worldview and laws and law of God for self -defense and weapons and all the rest.

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Thanks, guys, for watching. If you don't mind, guys, we're going to skip the after show for today so that Pastor Luke and Pastor Zach can take these

German boys shooting. Yep, that's true. If you all don't mind, just to bless them, we'll skip the after show for today so these guys can go shoot some guns and do the

America thing. All right, guys. We'll catch you guys next week right here on APOLOGIA Radio.

I think, is it next week? Can we do the Leighton Flowers -James White? We're going to review the Leighton Flowers -James White debate.

So that's Luke the Bear. I'm Jeff, they call me the Ninja. And right over here is our German pastors. Thank you, gentlemen, for being with us today.