May 26, 2017 Show with Sam Oluoch & Bruce Epps on “The Tulip Grows in Africa: The Blossoming of the Reformed Faith in Kenya”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 26th day of May 2017, the first day of Memorial Day weekend, and I hope that you all have a joyful and blessed and safe weekend, and I look forward to hearing from you next week with your questions for our guests next week.

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But today I have the honor and privilege of having two guests live in studio today.

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Pastor Sam Oyewoch, and he will correct me if I mispronounce that. It's been about an hour since he told me the correct pronunciation, and I don't know if I remembered it correctly.

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He is a former agricultural officer with the Kenyan government who has been in ministry since 1999, and he teamed up with Grace Baptist Church of Kisumu in 2000 to begin the work of planting in western

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Kenya near Lake Victoria, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you into the studio of Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time.

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Pastor Sam Oyewoch. Did I do okay either time?

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Oyewoch. Oyewoch. Oyewoch. Oyewoch. Is that right? That's right. Okay, Oyewoch.

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And with him is Dr. Bruce Epps, veteran of the radio industry, having worked in Kansas City, Missouri for a decade, including one year with Rush Limbaugh in 1978 at KCNW Newsradio in Kansas City.

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He's an advancement coordinator for Trinity Christian School in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and consultant to nonprofits and NGOs.

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He's also a Reformed Baptist evangelist and teacher working with churches and ministries in Africa.

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Today we are discussing the tulip grows in Africa, the blossoming of the Reformed faith in Kenya, and it's my honor and privilege to also welcome you into the studio for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr.

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Bruce Epps. Oh, thank you, Chris. And Dr. Epps, you are actually a long -time listener of Iron Sharpens Iron, going way back to the days when we were broadcasting out of WNYG and WGBB on Long Island, New York, correct?

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Yes, I sure have enjoyed it quite a bit, going probably back to 2005. Wow. Well, it's great to have you in the studio for the first time.

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First of all, I'd like to get the show started with having Pastor Sam Oyewoch give his testimony, an abbreviated version of the religion of your youth, what you were raised as, and how the

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Sovereign Lord providentially used circumstances in your life to draw you to himself and save you.

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Thank you, Chris. I was born again in the year 1990, and before that I grew up in a traditional

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Christian movement. I can't call it really, sorry, Christian as per what we know now.

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These are a movement in Kenya that are traditional in a way, yet they also claim to be

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Christians. It is a sect of Anglican Church, especially going back to the years of our independence when there was this call for Africanization, and even churches began to Africanize themselves.

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And Rojo, the sect I grew up in, came out of Anglican Church, and they started appointing their own leaders, kind of Africanizing Anglican Church, and that's a system

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I grew up in for quite a long time, until such a time that I was ready to go to college.

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I grew up, yes, knowing about God, at least I knew there was

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God. I knew something about sin, but they never taught anything about repentance.

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God was there, we could sin, yes, and I was not happy about sin, but that was it.

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So we could do our prayers, but still go on with our life as usual.

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Then it came to a point when I went to college, left home.

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After graduation, this is when I trained as an agricultural officer. I came back home and got a job.

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I was now a free man, still single and earning my own salary.

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There's some kind of freedom now. I could do what I want to do. Really, even going through this

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Rojo kind of movement, it was not by choice, it was by coercion.

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We were still under our parents, and you had to do what they want you to do. So when

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I grew up, went to college, came back after college, I felt I was now a free man,

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I could make my own choices. I remember I started going to a Pentecostal church, which was very close to where I was staying.

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In that church, I got to hear the gospel for the first time in a clearer way.

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It was clear to me that I had been, in a way, playing games with God, thinking that I was right before Him.

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But when I was told of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the fact that I was living in sin, it was so clear to me that day that I remember going back home.

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I locked myself into my bedroom, prayed that the

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Lord may forgive me of my sins and help me to walk in the walk of righteousness with Him.

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And that's the year that I can clearly say that I became born again in the year 1990.

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Praise God. Praise God. And, well, eventually you came to discover and enthusiastically embrace what is known as the

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Reformed faith. It has been nicknamed Calvinism, it's been nicknamed the doctrines of sovereign grace, but how did that come about?

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That came about through, first I must say that when

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I got saved, I remember my salary that month,

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I bought an NIV Bible. And the times I used to spend drinking with friends in bar was translated into reading the

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Bible. Praise God. And as a young Christian, I ploughed through the

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Bible from Genesis to Revelation. And in that way, the

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Bible began to sort me out in the doctrines of grace as early as one year old as born again

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Christian. I remember going through the book of Romans, and I came across chapter nine of Romans.

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That's a pivotal chapter. I read it for the first time.

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I couldn't believe what I was reading. I told myself, did I read it clearly?

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Am I really understanding this passage clearly? I went through it second time and the third time on the doctrine of election.

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Nobody had shared with me anything to do with the doctrine of election, but reading it from the

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Bible by myself, I got it that this is what the Lord was saying, because in that passage,

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Paul rather raises the questions that you want to ask and he answers them for you.

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And so that to me put everything into their proper perspective as far as God's sovereignty in this matter is concerned.

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And that again, helped me to start getting to know the biblical doctrines even at a very young age as a

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Christian. That notwithstanding, there's a friend that God brought providentially on my way.

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I'll make you, he was a Sikh, an Asian, Indian Sikh that we became so close with.

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He had been in Britain for quite some time. In fact, he was there doing his studies.

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He's a Kenyan. And while he was in Britain, he got saved and just got involved in the biblical doctrines deeply.

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So later on, when he came to Kesumu, where I am, and joined the church

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I was attending at that time, we became friends. And we started sharing these things that we believed in together.

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And we were kind of fortifying one another in the doctrines of grace.

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The church at that time did not believe in these things. It was only he and I and my wife that were kind of seeing things differently.

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But anyway, his coming to me and getting to know me,

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I getting to know him, was a help in a great deal. Then later on, as I was thinking full -time ministry, in fact, the very first year,

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I think it was the first or the second year that I was starting to get into the full -time ministry, he introduced me to Trinity Baptist Church in Nairobi, where Keith Thunderhill runs pastoral training.

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And that by itself then opened my eyes even wider and made me even be secure in my beliefs and the doctrines of grace.

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Before then, you know, you wonder who shares with me these beliefs, because everybody else seemed to be thinking differently.

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But then the next step of attending this college or seminary at Trinity Baptist Church Nairobi just made me say, wow, you know, this is it.

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I will run with it. This is the truth. So those are the initial years of my coming into contact with the doctrines of grace.

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Praise God. And it also dispels the myth that those who oppose the doctrines of grace perpetuate that the only way that anybody could become reformed theologically or believe in the doctrines of grace would be through a person teaching them that in spite of what the

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Bible says, because these people will claim you would never get the doctrines of grace or draw the conclusion that the

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Bible taught the doctrines of grace just by reading the Bible, and obviously what you just told us is dispelling that myth.

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That's always been my testimony, Chris, because I do hear people say what you're saying, that you know, this teacher is confusing you, this is not what the

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Bible is saying. People tend to think that you come to the doctrine of grace because somebody has taught you about it somewhere.

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I was not of that kind. I got it direct from the Bible. The people that God was bringing on my way was just to reassure me that though I look different from others, this is what the

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Bible teaches. So really, if you read the Bible properly, keenly, and try to study it with all your heart, prayerfully, doctrines of grace just pops up from the

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Bible. Yeah, it does. You find yourself discovering it in places that you didn't even think of it being there before, and all of a sudden you're like, wow, there it is again.

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Sure, sure, that's true. And Bruce Epps, perhaps if you could adjust your microphone a little bit, because I see that it's a little bit too close to your shirt there.

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Okay. Move it up a little bit. All right. And Bruce, if you could tell our listeners something about your personal background, the religion of your youth, if any, and how the

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Lord providentially drew you to himself and saved you. Oh, thank you. Yes, I was very blessed to have a great heritage.

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Growing up in a Southern Baptist pastor's home, and I actually originally thought

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I came to Christ at the age of seven. And I don't know why we're having that difficulty with static, but perhaps you could continue now.

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You know what I think would be a good idea? Perhaps when you speak, we are experiencing a technical difficulty with your microphone that I can't understand what's happening.

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Perhaps if you could, when it's your turn to speak, you could borrow Pastor Sam's headphones here.

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Okay. But in the meantime, I'm going to give our listeners our email address at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com, that's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. And if you have something to ask about that is a personal and private matter, you may remain anonymous.

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But otherwise, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

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And I am sorry about that, Bruce, but if you could continue. Oh, okay. Yeah, I was blessed to grow up in a

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Southern Baptist pastor's home. And so that's a great legacy of faith.

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Not everyone has that. But I first thought I came to Christ at the age of seven.

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I had heard messages, not preached by my father at that time, but by other pastor about hell.

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So I was afraid of going to hell. My father prayed with me, you know, kind of a sinner's prayer. But I think

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I had a period of rebellion, and I think I actually was converted at the age of 15.

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And so about that time, too, I believe, you know,

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Lord was calling me to preach, although I haven't pastored much more than about three years of my time.

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But anyway, that's what happened. And then many years later, actually, for any pastors out there that are listening,

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I think it was very powerful for my father to bring me alongside him because he was a very busy man.

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He was a bivocational pastor. But he brought me alongside him at 11 or 12 years old, and I was participating in hospital visitation and in funerals and things like that.

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And it was a great testimony to me to see, you know, some of the dying saints that were in great pain, but were, you know, had visions of glory.

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And how could people have a testimony like that? I thought you can't deny that this is real.

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But eventually I was in, I guess I've been a bit around the block before coming to the

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Doctrines of Grace. I was in the Church of the Nazarene and was licensed to preach there and went through their Bible college and part of the way through their seminary in Kansas City, and got a chance to work in radio and Christian radio for a while in the

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Kansas City area. And then eventually, I think there was a lot of influence while I was at seminary with a lot of the live preaching on the radio of the charismatic

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Word Faith preachers came on. And they always seemed to have such great joy and victory all the time, you know, and they were naming and claiming it.

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And so I think I was, you know, experiencing some of my own difficulties. So I kind of got sucked into that, you know, got involved in the

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Assemblies of God, and eventually the charismatic movement was there for 22 years. Didn't think

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I'd ever come out of it. I was a, I got in a big, big church in the Dallas area with about 9 ,000 people, was a care group, care group leader and all.

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But there were some troubling things that began to trouble me. Started hearing some very odd doctrines, not just the

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Word Faith, but words mentioned about not just Watchmen on the Wall, but Watchtowers.

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And I thought, Watchtowers? What does that have to do with the gospel? And I heard a lot of strange things, Benny Hinn, Reinhard Mannke, a lot of Rick Joyner, a lot of those guys.

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And so I think one of the things too is that, you know, I was, you know, in those gifts and thought that that was what was, you know, for today.

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But I think many times looking back on it, I think that there were trance states that a person can get into, you know, in those, what they think are

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God's gifts. But eventually I think how God providentially worked in my life was that I began to hear doctrines coming forth from the charismatic

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Word of Faith pulpit that were false. And of course we were always told as charismatics, never listened to any

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Calvinist. They're very heartless, unloving, mean people. And so I didn't.

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Okay. They were right about that. I'm only kidding. I'm only kidding. Well, we find people like that in any denomination or sphere of life.

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But I think what God used in a very special way in my life was just to read some of the things that are on the internet.

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And I think that rings true with probably a lot of your listeners, where they first started testing the waters, reading some of the writings and reading some things by Calvin and others.

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And I'd read a little bit and say, Oh, I better stop that. And, but as I began to be exposed to these teachings that came right out of the

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Word of God, the puzzle pieces fell together, you know, the doctrine of election, God's sovereignty, all these things.

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And I didn't leave immediately, but eventually did. And so I think what

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God sovereignly used in many ways was to look at the rotten roots of neo -Pentecostalism and charismatic and certainly word faith to see that, how can these things with Edward Irving and the, the other excesses that came to America and, you know, and other places, how could something good come from these rotten roots of the founders of this movement?

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And so about 14 years ago, started going to a

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Reformed Baptist church. And of course I could almost, you know, believe in the sovereignty of God, but limited atonement gave me quite a tailspin for a while.

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But once I began to see how the Bible made sense, things fit together, the puzzles pieces fit together, it all, it very much has been very peaceful.

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And also too, I think looking back on it as a Reformed person now and formerly charismatic word faith,

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I was seeing a demon behind every pole, so to speak, you know, because they believe we believe that, you know, there's demons in this demons.

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Now I understand a lot of that is not demons at all. It was just remaining sin in the believer.

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Yeah. When people oppose limited atonement, which is also called particular redemption, and it's also called definite atonement, and it's also called substitutionary atonement, even though Arminians use that last term today, also they really cannot consistently and logically use substitutionary atonement.

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But when I point out to them or I ask them, did Jesus actually redeem anyone on Calvary or did he just make them redeemable?

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And typically an Arminian would say, oh, of course he redeemed them. And I point out to them that if they have their view of the atonement where Christ died with the intention of redeeming every person who has ever lived, that could not be the case.

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Right. Because in reality, he failed at his mission. He only redeemed a minority, a tiny, a comparatively tiny handful of the vast majority of people who are going to hell because...

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Yeah, it's true. Even with John 3 .16, they misinterpret with the term God's all of the world, meaning they believe it's every single individual person when it could be all people groups.

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And Pastor Sam Oliwaj, I was wondering how you and brother

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Bruce actually met and started to cooperate with each other in ministry. Yeah.

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Was it the year 2013? 2013. Yeah. Bruce and his former boss, they would come to Kenya to run a conference at Loy Tok Tok.

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That's under some Presbyterian movement. And his boss would sponsor that conference.

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And Bruce invited us to that conference and with other pastors that are in the reformation movement in Kenya, especially from Kisumu, my city, and a few from Nairobi.

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So Bruce invited us for that conference. And being a Presbyterian conference, I think our presence there was very important because we would kind of put soup in their fly.

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We'd put some fly in their soup and just try to sort out things so that they can look at it.

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And since that time, 2013, then 2014 also, we were invited for that.

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That's when we came to know Bruce. And from that time onwards, we've been working together in many ways.

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And he's been quite supportive of our brethren back at home. And Marsha too. And Marsha, his wife.

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And you have a specific involvement in your career,

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Bruce, where it involves Kenya and involves connection with people in Africa, correct?

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Yes, I was working for a wealthy man that was an elder of a large Presbyterian church in Dallas, Texas.

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And he and his wife had started a primary school and a girls high school, boarding school, secondary school, a

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Presbyterian school there in the Maasai area where way out in the rural area where 90 percent of girls never have a chance to have a high school education.

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And I think they eventually built to have built seven churches for the Presbyterian Church of East Africa. And so we went over each year and did a vacation

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Bible school, had 250 pastors coming from Kenya and Tanzania, largely charismatic and and word of faith.

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So his presence, Sam's presence and some of the other reformed pastors were very key. And they intermingled a lot with their fellow pastors there and influenced them in many ways.

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Can I go ahead? Yes. Yeah, I think Bruce inviting us for that conference in Loy Tok Tok was always quite welcome to us.

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And we remember the times they would ask us to lead devotion and participate in the discussions.

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And anytime we would lead devotions and even participate in the discussions, we'd always open the Bible and tell them, no, this is what the

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Bible says. They would participate with some teachings they got from somewhere else which they could not support biblically.

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And most of the time when we open the Bible and show them that, look, what we are saying is in the

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Bible, you know, even pastors that purport to be reading the

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Bible would be like seeing this thing for the first time. And you wonder which

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Bible they really read. Are we reading the same Bible? And so I would like to just thank you, brother, for making it possible for us to attend that conference.

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I believe even though we are not attending it now, the input we gave may have helped quite a number of them.

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Well, the Lord gets all the glory. Oh, sure. I'm sure they're remembering those things that we did amongst them that time.

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Sam and his fellow reformed pastors are really swimming in an ocean in Kenya where it's, you know, ostensibly a

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Christian country, but as he will tell you, it's about 90 percent, 95 percent charismatic and oftentimes the word faith variation of that.

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So the Lord is helping them that they have a good battle ahead of them. Well, praise

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God for that. And we're going to go to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question about Christianity in Africa and Kenya, to be more specific, or perhaps you have a question about the charismatic and Pentecostal movement, the movement out of which both of our guests came.

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And I want to remind our listeners that I do not have some kind of a disdain for all

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Pentecostal and charismatic brethren. There is a certain sect within the charismatic and Pentecostal movement that I believe is dangerously heretical and even damning.

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But there are multitudes of my brothers and sisters in Christ who are charismatic and Pentecostal.

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So I want to make it clear that we are not trying to show disdain or disrespect towards many of our brethren who disagree with us on the sign gifts and things of that nature.

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But we are being very clear and being honest and trying to demonstrate a comparison and a contrast between what we believe and what those of the charismatic movement believe.

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And of course there are even today charismatic and Pentecostal Christians and pastors who actually believe in the doctrines of grace, which is something decades ago would have been unheard of.

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But there are a number of them and even denominations or fellowships that have been formed by specifically charismatic and Calvinistic or Reformed Christians.

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So it is quite a different day and age. But any question that you may have, send it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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Useful and I assure you never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor.

33:50

Welcome back. This is Chris Sarnes, and if you just tuned us in, our two guests today on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio are

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Sam Oluwoch, who is from Kenya, Africa, and he is working on planting churches in western

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Kenya near Lake Victoria. He is a former Pentecostal or a

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Christian who was a part of the Pentecostal church movement in Kenya and came out of that after embracing the doctrines known as Reform Theology or the doctrines of sovereign grace.

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And with me also in the studio is Dr. Bruce Epps, who is a member of the

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Reform Baptist Church of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and he is a Reform Baptist evangelist and teacher working with churches and ministries in Africa.

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Today we are discussing the tulip grows in Africa, the blossoming of the Reform faith in Kenya, and if anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York wants to know if there are cults that are plaguing the

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Christian faith in the area of Kenya where you are in any considerable way where they are robbing members of your church from good faithful teaching.

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Yes, you could go, Sam. Yeah, there are cults. Like I mentioned when

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I was starting by telling you about my testimony, I myself came up out of a cult.

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That's the church that came out of the Anglican church? Yes, during the years of our independence in the 60s.

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But there are several of these cults. For example, we have the so -called

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Lejo Baria cult. We have quite a number of them hovering around, and more so from the traditional

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African kind of movement. And basically, they synchronize

36:00

Christianity with traditional beliefs, and they sell because they give our people what they want in terms of traditionalism.

36:11

But apart from that, if we may talk of the charismatic

36:18

Pentecostal movement, which is quickly turning around to be another movement altogether, averse to the biblical teachings, it is cutting across like wildfire.

36:35

And if the church is not rooted in the truth, definitely you'll find that they'll be sweeping your members to their side.

36:46

But I must say that by God's grace and Him enabling us in our church, plus the elders that we have, we've labored to root our members in the biblical truth, that when these lies come around them, they're able to tell that this is not from God, this is from man.

37:07

So then, what I'm trying to say is that those cults are there in various forms. But from our own church,

37:15

I've also seen that if members are rooted in the truth, they're able to quickly tell the truth from the lies.

37:22

So in my own church, I've never seen people being moved by those cults. And when you say the churches that exist that are mixing traditional

37:33

African religion with Christianity, I remember Dr. Conrad Mbewe, a mutual friend of ours from Zambia, Africa, Kabwatha Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, he had told me and my listeners that there are churches that really the witch doctor would have just become a pastor, really, of a church.

37:56

And there is very little difference in the way that he behaves and teaches and the way that people approach him for healing and blessing is very similar to the old -fashioned occultic witch doctor.

38:09

Is that what your experience is? Yeah, for anybody who has listened to that sermon by my friend

38:15

Conrad Mbewe, we witch doctors are pastors. I think he got it right.

38:22

We are behaving back in our land as witch doctors and we've just brought in witch doctor movement into the church.

38:35

Camouflage as Christians because you see what some of these pastors do.

38:40

Basically, you go to the traditional movement, that's what you find there. For example, when you come to my own country, people are so fearful of demons, people are so fearful of curses, people are so fearful of poverty.

38:58

Nothing happens without a cause in terms of the demon behind it. And witch doctors are known to be working against the demonic powers in one or the other, but doing some things that are quite unbelievable.

39:15

These unbelievable things, we see pastors now doing them right in the church.

39:21

Wow. Yeah. Wow. Now, when you say that you see these unbelievable things, are you convinced that much of it, perhaps even all of it, is not trickery but actual demonic manifestations of supernatural power?

39:40

The people who get it clearly come as conmen.

39:48

In our country, there's a saying that if you've gone to school and you failed in your education, become a pastor.

40:01

I think that's probably true here in the United States as well. The remaining option you have in life to survive is to become a pastor.

40:10

And becoming a pastor means you'll surround yourself with some people in the name of your congregation and you just play about with them anyhow, the way you want, so long as your survival can be supported by them.

40:28

And you play on their fear for you to get the survival that you want from them.

40:36

And one of the areas that these people have taken advantage of is the fear of death, the fear of sickness, the fear of curses.

40:45

And you can charge any money to dispel all those fears in men in a way of conning them, really.

40:53

Because by the end of the day, nothing happens. Sickness will continue to be there. People will continue to be dying.

41:01

Yet, they say that they have the powers even to stop these things, which we never see in the first place.

41:06

Okay, so I guess I misunderstood you. But do you think that there are or have you witnessed or experienced or seen or heard about which doctors who actually would give you the opinion actually have a real demonic power to do supernatural things?

41:26

My own dad, though he was involved in this

41:32

African type of church movement, many times he took us to the witch doctors.

41:40

And we could see them doing their trade, which was not even helpful to our own family.

41:46

In fact, it brought a lot of harm to the family. And even as young boys, we could see how these witch doctors were playing around with our family's mind, especially my dad leading us into these kinds of things.

41:59

At a certain point, we just had to tell dad that we can't continue this way. So this is the same thing you see happening in churches today.

42:12

I don't know if you've ever heard of a ministry, a sovereign grace believing ministry called

42:18

To Every Tribe, I believe it's called. David Sitton, have you ever heard of this ministry? No.

42:23

No. Well, the ministry purposely goes to areas of the world where there has been very little gospel witness, sometimes areas that there's been none until they arrived.

42:36

And he has seen things in the world of the occult and witchcraft and so on, especially in South America, where he is convinced that the witch doctors were actually doing things that had genuine demonic supernatural power going on.

42:58

So I guess it's just like here in America or anywhere else, it could be a combination of things where you have charlatans who are just completely frauds, and those who actually are doing something that has demonic power behind it.

43:12

But either way, they're both working for Satan, whichever way it is, whether they recognize it or not.

43:20

We have Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, who says, I joined late, so you might have already discussed this, but I was curious, to what extent is

43:32

Islam a challenge for the church planter in that part of Kenya? I heard that Islam was much more prominent in Mombasa and the coastal areas, but this was a long time ago, so I don't know if that is still true.

43:47

That's Ted from Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Ted, you're right. Islam is still big in Mombasa.

43:55

I say about 70 % in Mombasa, I mean, there are in Mombasa about 70 % of the population there.

44:04

And this is because when the Arabs came to Kenya, that was the gateway, and they managed to convert many of our people into Islamic movement.

44:15

But not only Mombasa, if you go to the northern part of Kenya, it's almost also 80%, 70 to 80 %

44:24

Muslims. And this is because of the Somalians. We are bordering

44:29

Somalia, the north, and they've infiltrated into the country in their numbers.

44:36

So the north of Kenya and the coastal part, basically, that's a major area for Islamic movement in Kenya.

44:46

Even though I can say that Islamic movement is spreading even outside those major areas.

44:56

For example, you come to my town. For the last 10 years,

45:02

I've seen four mosques being built, and now they have people going into them to worship those mosques.

45:13

And they're within a span of about two kilometers each.

45:20

And they all have followers who will go there to worship on Fridays. Before that, the mosques were built here, but they were empty.

45:31

You know, there was this movement, they would say, let's just put mosques here, people will come. And surely people are coming.

45:37

People are coming, and I've seen those four mosques now being filled by our own people from my own town.

45:44

So, in short, Islamic movement is spreading in Kenya. Well, thank you,

45:52

Ted. Keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and keep spreading the word about the program in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and beyond.

46:00

We have Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker from the

46:05

Shepherds Fellowship in Greensboro, North Carolina. And he says or asks, many times in history, political, social, and economic stresses force people to more carefully contemplate their life situation.

46:21

And God uses these things for his glory. Some people seek the local church for truth, help, and answers.

46:29

Africa has now become known for a sort of revival of Reformed and Anglican church activity.

46:38

Do you believe that recent epidemic outbreaks, Islam, and poverty may be fueling the strengthening of the church?

46:45

If so, perhaps some examples would help us to better pray for you and your work. Thank you,

46:51

Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker in Greensboro, North Carolina. It's a long question.

46:58

I hope I'll be able to capture everything that is asked. But, in short, those economic hardship and challenges that are there, in a way, has pushed quite a number of people into the church.

47:17

And the said earlier that Kenya is awash with the charismatic

47:26

Pentecostal movement. And they promise good health. They promise wealth.

47:33

They promise life free of sickness. All these good things that we are hoping to ultimately enjoy in heaven is promised us on earth.

47:44

And if you are poor and somebody has asked you to come to his church and poverty will be gone.

47:51

If you have a terminal illness and you are asked to come to church and that illness will be gone.

47:58

And all these promises that are being given, definitely churches will be filled with people running for safety, kind of.

48:07

Now, what it means, Chris, is that in many of these churches, and there are many, that are filled with people who are not born again.

48:19

That's the sad part of it. I've had time to even talk to some of the pastors and ask them for their testimony.

48:27

The pastor himself does not have any credible testimony. Yeah, that's pretty much widespread here too.

48:34

I guess it's a global phenomenon. Yeah, so you see then the promises that have been made to people to help them economically, to help them health -wise.

48:45

And I think when they come to church, then all these things will be sorted out. But it turns out that they're not sorted out and they get disappointed.

48:53

But still, many still come. There's a great turnover of people coming into church and going out, being disillusioned that things are not happening for them.

49:02

So people come, yes, because of this economic hardship, but for wrong reasons. And I guess there could be other,

49:13

I mean, I'm assuming it's not completely a dismal picture, that there are some who wind up coming and staying, and actually be becoming children of God, and becoming regenerate.

49:25

Yeah, God can overrule all these. And we are not saying here,

49:31

Chris, that all of them are not Christians. You are saying great majority, because we know that God has his own way that he can overrule evil for good.

49:43

And I know some of my friends in this movement that are truly born again in the charismatic movement.

49:50

But we just pray that they'll be able to know the truth in due time. The question that Pastor Sterling asked kind of reminded me of a question

50:01

I wanted to ask in regard to the Anglican church. In fact, I'll probably ask you the question and have you answer when we come back, because it's about time to go to our midway break, commercial break.

50:15

But I keep hearing that the liberal

50:20

Anglicans here in the United States are being very often rebuked and confronted by the much more conservative, biblically -minded

50:32

Anglicans in Africa. Now, I'm not sure specifically in Kenya what you are experiencing, but for the most part, are these

50:40

Anglicans that I keep hearing about, are they more from the Oxford movement end of conservative

50:48

Anglicanism that would tend to be very Roman Catholic in their beliefs and practices, who are very ecumenical with Rome, or are they more from the

50:58

Protestant 39 Articles wing of the Anglicans that are much more faithful to the scriptures and in many cases have a lot of similarity between the

51:10

Reformed Baptists and the Presbyterians, other than their liturgy and their perhaps liturgical garments in some of the ceremonies.

51:20

But where would these Anglicans be coming from for the most part? In fact, we do have time for you to answer that now,

51:27

I think, before we go to the break. I hear of the Anglican movement in the

51:33

U .S. and in Britain and the way they've gone liberal. I won't say that Anglican church in Kenya has gone that way.

51:44

They're still tending to be quite evangelical. You remember there was a time when the

51:49

Anglican church in Britain proposed that they should start ordaining homosexuals.

51:56

My own bishop, the Anglican bishop in Kenya, refused that and said it's not biblical.

52:05

And many African Anglican bishops stood to their feet and said, we are not going to ordain homosexuals.

52:13

In fact, it came to a point that they were threatened with withdrawal of funds and they said, you go with your funds, but you're not going to ordain homosexuals.

52:22

They may be having their weaknesses in terms of expository preaching, strong charge, biblical charge.

52:31

They may be having their weaknesses in those areas, but they're not as liberal as what I hear from this end. And do you think that from what you can see, are they more prone to be

52:42

Romish in their liturgy and their beliefs or would they be more 39 articles

52:48

Protestants or Calvinists and so on? I wouldn't say they're tending to be in the

52:55

Calvinist side. Some of them would still go by the 39 articles, yes, but loosely.

53:03

Right. Well, we're going to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

53:11

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

53:21

USA. So don't go away. God willing, we will be right back right after these messages with more of Pastor Sam Oldiewatch and Dr.

53:32

Bruce Epps and the blossoming of the reformed faith in Kenya. So don't go away.

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Or go to BatteryDepot .com. That's BatteryDepot .com. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the

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Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

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.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

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We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Welcome back.

01:04:42

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with just about an hour to go, our pastor is

01:04:50

Sam Oliwotch, and he is working with a church planting ministry or is involved in church planting in western

01:05:00

Kenya near Lake Victoria that he is doing in cooperation with Grace Baptist Church of Kisumu.

01:05:06

And also in studio is Dr. Bruce Epps, a member of the

01:05:12

Reformed Baptist Church of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and he is a Reformed Baptist evangelist and teacher working with churches and ministries in Africa, such as the one

01:05:21

I just mentioned with Pastor Sam Oliwotch. And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

01:05:29

if you have a question for either or both Sam or Dr. Bruce. That's chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

01:05:36

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And we are discussing The Tulip Grows in Africa, The Blossoming of the

01:05:44

Reformed Faith in Kenya. Before I return to our discussion with our guests, I have some special announcements to make.

01:05:52

First of all, next week, Tuesday, May 30th through Thursday, June 1st,

01:05:57

Banner of Truth is having their U .S. Ministers Conference. In fact, Dr. Bruce Epps and Pastor Sam Oliwotch are going to be joining me there at the

01:06:08

Banner of Truth Ministers Conference on the theme, The Living and Enduring Word.

01:06:14

And the speakers at this conference include Joel Beeke, Jeff Thomas, Mark Johnston, Jonathan Master, Carlton Winn, all of whom have been guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio before.

01:06:27

And the only one who has not is William Vander Waard, and I'm hoping to get him on the program eventually to discuss his book on the quest for the historical atom.

01:06:38

I would love to have that occur as soon as possible. But this conference, as I said, is next

01:06:45

Tuesday through Thursday at the Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania. If you'd like to register, go to banneroftruth .org,

01:06:54

banneroftruth .org, click on Events, and then click on U .S. Ministers Conference.

01:07:00

After that, this June 22nd through the 23rd in New York City, Sermon Audio is having the

01:07:08

Foundations Conference. And that is featuring such speakers as Dr.

01:07:14

Stephen J. Lawson, Dr. Joel Beeke again, Phil Johnson, who is the Executive Director of John MacArthur's Ministry, grace to you,

01:07:21

Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio, and a number of other speakers.

01:07:28

If you'd like to register for that conference, go to thefoundationsconference .com,

01:07:35

thefoundationsconference .com, and again, that's June 22nd through the 23rd in New York City in the

01:07:40

Chelsea area of Manhattan. Then after that, in August, from the 3rd through the 5th, the

01:07:47

Fellowship Conference New England is being held in the

01:07:52

Deering Center Community Church of Portland, Maine. And speakers at this conference include

01:07:59

Don Curran, who is the Eastern European Coordinator with HeartCry Missionary Society.

01:08:06

In fact, I read an article about our guest, Pastor Sam Oluwoch, on the website of HeartCry Missionary Society.

01:08:14

That's where I read Pastor Sam Oluwoch's testimony. Well, Don Curran is one of the speakers at the

01:08:21

Fellowship Conference New England, along with my very dear friend Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington, who's also been on this program recently, of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, and Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who's going to be on this program in a number of weeks to discuss revival in New England.

01:08:43

He is the pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire. If you'd like to register for this conference, the

01:08:51

Fellowship Conference New England, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

01:08:58

Then in November, from the 17th through the 18th, in Quakers Town, Pennsylvania, the

01:09:04

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology on the theme,

01:09:11

For Still Our Ancient Foe, obviously a line taken from Martin Luther's hymn,

01:09:17

A Mighty Fortress. Speakers at this conference include Ian Hamilton, Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, and Scott Oliphant.

01:09:26

If you would like to register for this conference, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on Events, and click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, For Still Our Ancient Foe.

01:09:40

And then last but not least, coming up in January of 2018, from the 18th through the 20th of January, the

01:09:49

G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia, and I will have an exhibitor's booth there,

01:09:56

God willing. And the speakers that are featured on the roster are

01:10:01

Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, H .B. Charles Jr., who I believe is the new president of the

01:10:07

Southern Baptist Convention. I believe he may be the first black president of the

01:10:13

Southern Baptist Convention, and he's a believer in the sovereign grace of God as well. Tim Challies, Pastor Josh Bice, who is the orchestrator of the

01:10:22

G3 Conference, my dear friend of many years, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, another dear friend,

01:10:28

Tom Askell of Founders Ministries, and a number of other speakers will be there if you would like to register for that before the rates go up, because right now they're offering a discount on registration.

01:10:42

Go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and click on Registration for the 2018

01:10:51

G3 Conference. And last but not least, I'd like to remind you that Iron Trump and Zion Radio is in urgent need of your donations and your advertising.

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If you can advertise on this program, whether it be your church, your parachurch ministry, your business, corporation, special event you're having, email me at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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And I would love to include your advertisements on the program as long as they are compatible with the theological makeup of this program.

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It means more to me than I can express in an English language, and I thank all of you who have already donated to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and some of you multiple times, and I just thank

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God for you. Now we return to the discussion at hand with Pastor Sam Olywatch.

01:12:57

And, as I said earlier, he is a former agricultural officer with the Kenyan government who has been in ministry since 1999 and teamed up with Grace Baptist Church of Kisumu in 2000 to begin the work of church planting in western

01:13:11

Kenya near Lake Victoria. Also in studio with me is Dr. Bruce Epps, veteran of the radio industry, having worked in Kansas City, Missouri for a decade, including a year with Rush Limbaugh in 1978 at KCNW News Radio in Kansas City, an advancement coordinator for a

01:13:30

Trinity school in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and consultant to nonprofits and NGOs, and a

01:13:36

Reformed Baptist evangelist and teacher working with churches and ministries in Africa. He's also a member of the

01:13:42

Reformed Baptist Church of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And before I go to our listener in Slovenia, Dr.

01:13:50

Bruce Epps, you were about to say something before we went to a break about Muslims who seem to be borrowing from the tactics of the word of faith and the health, wealth, and prosperity movement of Pentecostalism.

01:14:03

Yes, I think a real poignant example is my friend in Dallas who's originally from Guinea.

01:14:09

He grew up in a Protestant church there, although that's a very Islamic country. His father converted to Islam partially because they offer some very attractive incentives, such as three wives.

01:14:24

You can have three wives, and also they will pay for your higher education. Is that actually an incentive?

01:14:30

That may not be an incentive at all. They claim it's an incentive. I'm just kidding.

01:14:36

I'm just kidding. And also, not only that, they will also promote you in business, and you'll have favored hiring and things like that.

01:14:46

And his father, near the end of his life, repented of that and came back to Christ. But I think largely what we're seeing here is

01:14:54

Saudi Arabia, a very rich country, also promoting not just Sunni Islam, but a very different brand of it that we're seeing that's radical, which is

01:15:03

Wahhabi, the Wahhabi sect of Islam. And they are the force behind a lot of money.

01:15:11

They come to Kenya. They come to other countries. And they say, you know, if you'll let us put up a mosque, we'll do all these wonderful things.

01:15:19

They have set up hospitals and different things like that. And so they come in with money and incentives, and it's tempting sometimes.

01:15:27

But in some ways it's almost like a bribery. So it's very easy for people to convert to Islam.

01:15:33

They only say just a few words and observe the five pillars. And for some people, you know, it's tempting to them to take them up on that offer.

01:15:41

By the way, before I forget, I know that Pastor Sam Oluwoch and I are going to be friends for life now because his name,

01:15:49

Oluwoch, actually means a dreary gray day. And believe it or not, that was my late wife, my precious dear late wife, who

01:16:03

I miss dearly, her favorite kind of day. If she woke up in the morning and she saw it was overcast and gray outside and even raining, that was her favorite kind of day, not if it was bright and sunny.

01:16:16

So I know that there's going to be a connection with us forever because of that reason. Thank you.

01:16:22

And that's, I guess, some Kenyan language. It means a gray day.

01:16:28

Sure. Am I getting better at pronouncing it, Oluwoch? Sorry.

01:16:35

You're getting worse, actually. Oluwoch.

01:16:44

Oluwoch. Oluwoch. Oluwoch. Oluwoch. Oluwoch. Oluwoch.

01:16:50

Oluwoch. Yep. Okay, what I have to do is I have to think of old watch. There you go. Oluwoch. Exactly.

01:16:58

Hey, is that a new watch? No, it's an old watch. An old watch. And I just have to tell a very quick joke.

01:17:08

I remember seeing Woody Allen very many years ago in the 60s doing his stand -up act, and he's standing there and he's looking at this pocket watch, and he's looking at it adoringly and he says, my grandfather on his deathbed sold me this watch.

01:17:32

But anyway, that was probably my favorite Woody Allen joke of all time, and one of the few I could actually tell on a

01:17:38

Christian radio program. We have Joe in Slovenia who says,

01:17:44

Dear Brother Chris, thank you so much for having this conversation on doctrinal soundness and international missions.

01:17:51

In my estimation, the Word of Faith, New Apostolic Reformation, and Prosperity Gospel eras are the most significant difficulties and hindrances on the mission fields worldwide.

01:18:04

The eras that these false gospels preach are very appealing to lost people in alarming ways.

01:18:10

For these reasons, it is absolutely critical that Reformed churches and especially

01:18:16

Reformed Baptist churches become very active and deeply engaged with career missionaries and national church planters.

01:18:25

Unfortunately, it has been my experience that it is very difficult to get Reformed Baptist churches to directly partner with us in evangelism and church planting in Slovenia.

01:18:36

How do your guests see this issue? Is this something that is limited to just my experience, or is this a fairly common phenomenon?

01:18:45

How can we get more Reformed Baptist churches active in getting the doctrines of grace proclaimed to a level at least equal to or greater than the eras of hyper -Pentecostal charismaticism?

01:18:58

Thank you for sharpening our focus on sovereign grace missions. Pastor Owach, if you could begin by giving your response to that.

01:19:08

I fully agree with that, brother. You know, I always say that the greatest threat to Christianity today is the human right movement and charismatic

01:19:22

Pentecostalism. And I was just talking to Bruce last night, and I remember telling my brother

01:19:28

Bruce that it's high time we should not sit back.

01:19:34

We should be known that we are in the field also, and be strong in opposing this movement that is just messing

01:19:42

Christianity left, right, and center. And one way that we can make our voice be heard in the arena is by joining together like what that brother has just said.

01:19:57

In Kenya, we've learned it the hard way. We are very few. Reformed Baptist churches in Kenya are very few.

01:20:05

But for quite some time, we've been parading each person in his own corner.

01:20:11

But for the last two years, we've learned to come together, work together, think together, and even share resources together.

01:20:19

Now, what that brother is saying is what used to happen in my country.

01:20:28

But if I hear him well, he's saying that, how can we then do what you people have started doing in Kenya in a worldwide kind of way?

01:20:40

Of which I agree with him. You know, sometimes

01:20:46

I talk to people about Reformed Baptist churches in Kenya, and they say, oh, you mean they're there?

01:20:53

No, we're here, surely. There's a time I was in a conference in Zambia, and brethren from South Africa were there.

01:21:05

And when I told them that I'm from Kenya and from a Reformed church, it's like they couldn't believe it.

01:21:12

They couldn't believe that there's a Reformed church in Kenya. They only knew of one,

01:21:17

Trinity Baptist Church. The rest is like nothing was happening apart from Trinity Baptist Church. I think that call is genuine, my brother.

01:21:26

And we should be seen to be working towards achieving the goal that my brother has proposed there.

01:21:32

Where he is, I even sympathize with him. I'm sure he's very lonely there. And Dr.

01:21:38

Epps, I think you want to? Yeah, I think another thing, too, is I think part of what's started the cooperation between people like myself,

01:21:45

Reformed Baptists with Kenya, is to make your vacation, maybe make plans to take your vacation in Slovenia, in this case, and get to know ahead of time who these

01:21:56

Reformed brethren are and go over and come and see. When you hear the heartbeat, and they may not even know the language, but sometimes that's not a barrier.

01:22:06

In Kenya, they speak English. But I can certainly see that oftentimes the work is in a silo.

01:22:13

Each church does not know what the other one does. So coordination, what I think certainly is going out on mission trips to places like Kenya and Slovenia is a good first start.

01:22:23

Now, do you think that the lack of Reformed Baptist churches in some areas of the world is simply because we are a minority?

01:22:33

I mean, Reformed Baptist churches are not, you know, all over the globe in every community.

01:22:42

Like some churches are known to dominate the globe, and especially, you know, you may have one area or some areas of the globe that are more prone to be of one stripe of theology and another stripe.

01:23:02

But Reformed Baptist churches are really a tiny minority today.

01:23:08

They were at one time very dominant in the Baptist movement, but now it can be difficult to find a church.

01:23:16

Couldn't that be just simply the reason why there are so few in the areas that you're speaking of?

01:23:24

No, I think many hands make light work. Slovenia, you know, was a Catholic country and actually had as their president was an archbishop,

01:23:33

I think, Monsignor Tiso. So I think that, you know, if people, you know, will just, it only takes a spark to get a few people going, some brethren to go there, as, you know, as what's happening in places like Croatia, places like that where Reformed brethren are making an impact there.

01:23:58

Yes, and I think something that we were speaking about over lunch possibly may have something to do with it, that because of the great love that Reformed Baptists and Reformed people or Reformed Christians in general have for doctrinal purity, and because of the fact that on this planet before we enter glory, we all have sin, those two things combined can create churches or individuals that are far more rigid than they need to be.

01:24:28

Do you think that could be something to do with the fact that there aren't, they're perhaps less willing to be cooperating with other churches that may even be

01:24:38

Reformed, but have disagreements that they think are not overcomable?

01:24:44

And that's a tragedy on our side, because it is true that Reformed Baptist churches are very few in this globe, and as few as we are, we are still having our own infighting over issues that really we should not be fighting over, and dividing ourselves, subdividing ourselves on issues that we should not be dividing ourselves on.

01:25:12

And if we continue fighting from within, and as few as we are, the charismatic will continue having the day.

01:25:18

I mean, we should learn how to accommodate one another, especially brethren within the

01:25:24

Reformed Baptist movement, how we can accommodate one another, work together, even share resources together.

01:25:31

Because think of nations blessed in different ways, and if we can share these resources together as few as we are, we'll be able to use our resources effectively as to reach all ends of the earth, in a manner of speaking.

01:25:51

But so long as we are still continuing to divide ourselves and subdividing ourselves, I don't see how that is going to be possible.

01:25:58

I think what you're on to, too, is evangelism, because I don't know why it would spur my wife and I's passion for evangelism and things to go to Kenya.

01:26:09

Why couldn't we do it in Pittsburgh? But there's something about going to another country, another culture, that you bring that back to the

01:26:17

U .S. or U .K. or wherever you're at, and it just, you see what

01:26:22

God is doing in those countries and cultures. And oftentimes we'll come back and bring those back and try some of those same things, because we share many of the same issues, you know, in Pennsylvania or elsewhere with that.

01:26:35

Yeah, I think that one of the difficulties is that it is not always easy, especially for those who have a rightful objective to achieve and maintain doctrinal purity.

01:26:51

It's not always easy for Christians like that to be able to discern those areas that are negotiable, or perhaps not negotiable, but those that we are willing to tolerate, if you will, and those that we must not ever tolerate in our presence.

01:27:11

I think that that dividing line with Reformed Baptists seems to be a hurdle that is more difficult to overcome.

01:27:18

I don't know if you're in agreement with me on that. Yeah, I think so. I think part of it is we end up talking to ourselves a little too much, and I admit, this fellowship's wonderful, but if you give people an opportunity to get plugged in,

01:27:30

Reformed Baptists especially, and evangelism, and if it doesn't happen naturally here, you know, take a mission trip, and I guarantee you, you go to a country like Kenya, Slovenia, whatever, you're going to come back on fire for the

01:27:43

Lord and for sharing the gospel from a Reformed perspective. And we're going to our final break right now.

01:27:49

If you'd like to join us on the air, this is your last opportunity to do so. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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01:33:31

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

01:33:37

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01:33:43

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01:33:48

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01:34:02

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01:34:07

This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our guests today for the full two hours, with a little less than a half hour to go, are

01:34:15

Pastor Sam Olowach, and I think I got it pretty close to correct. I'm sorry, brother?

01:34:23

You're getting closer. And Dr.

01:34:30

Bruce Epps. And he is a member of the Reformed Baptist Church of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and is an evangelist and teacher working with churches and ministries and other organizations in Africa.

01:34:45

And if you'd like to join us on the air while we still have time, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

01:34:51

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And Pastor Sam, you are having a special event, a conference, that features a mutual friend of ours, a dear mutual friend,

01:35:04

Dr. Conrad Mbewe of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa. And if you could let our listeners know exactly all the information they need to know about this conference.

01:35:18

Thank you, Chris. This is a conference we've been running for the last six years, and the aim of this conference has been to use it as a tool to spread the doctrines of grace, biblical ministry amongst our friends and fellow pastors.

01:35:39

And we've been having several speakers, guest speakers that have been coming faithfully, some from Zambia.

01:35:46

I remember one came from the States some time back. And we just want to invite all of you all over the world, if you are able to come this

01:35:55

December, please feel welcome. We'll host it from 11th of December, the second week of December.

01:36:03

And as Chris has said, our brother in Christ, Dr. Conrad Mbewe, will be our speaker together with Luke Walker.

01:36:12

They'll be sharing the pulpit and other events will also take place. We'll have workshops that various topics will be tackled.

01:36:21

In Swahili we say, karibu sana. We want also to let you know that we run a seminary in Kisumu.

01:36:31

For those who are interested in learning more about the doctrines of grace, this is a tool that again, a combination of churches, reformed churches in Western Kenya and one in Nairobi came together to start.

01:36:48

And we use it to train men and send them out in the field, well equipped to be able to handle the word of truth correctly and influence our men, the countries in Western part of Africa and most of our own country,

01:37:06

Kenya. We've seen this seminary influence quite a number of charismatic pastors.

01:37:15

They come and train for about four years and when they leave or even when they're still in the middle of it, their perspective of ministry completely changes.

01:37:25

Wow. And they begin to see things in a much more biblical way. I would like to invite those who are interested in biblical ministry to get in touch with us and we'll be able to help in one way or the other.

01:37:39

Like Chris has said, I'm a pastor of Grace Baptist Church Kisumu. Anybody who is in Kisumu, Kenya, anytime, do get in touch with us.

01:37:46

Our church is located on Kibos Road, just near Kawosh. You'll see a clear sign board written

01:37:52

Grace Baptist Church Kisumu. You are welcome. Our services begin at 9 .30 all the way to half past noon.

01:37:58

And the website is gracebaptistchurchkisumu, that's K -I -S -U -M like Michael, u .blogspot

01:38:09

.com. Exactly. gracebaptistchurchkisumu, K -I -S -U -M as in Michael, u .blogspot

01:38:19

.com. And did you say that Luke Walker was one of the speakers? Isn't he from the

01:38:24

Star Wars movies? What is the actual theme of the conference?

01:38:34

The theme of the conference will be biblical Christianity. And that will touch on our own personal life as Christians and our ministry also as Christians.

01:38:44

And Dr. Bruce Epps, you said that you had an app that you are developing or have developed. Well, it's an app that's already been created and used by a lot of people.

01:38:52

It's called WhatsApp Messenger. It's free and it works with iPhones and with Androids.

01:38:59

And I was introduced to it by the Kenyan brethren, but it's a very powerful way to be in real -time communication.

01:39:06

The beauty of it is that you can text and instantly people get it. You can do a voice.

01:39:13

You can speak and they instantly get the voice. You can send a video and there's almost no restriction on the video size and audio.

01:39:20

And we have set up a forum for reformed Baptist pastors and reformed leaders on there.

01:39:27

Now we have about 40 people, some in the U .S., a lot of them in Kenya, some in Uganda and other places.

01:39:34

But the brethren in Slovenia or anybody else in the world, I think it's a very powerful way to put together some forums and get out of our silos and start praying and encouraging one another and doing ministry together.

01:39:49

Amen. And one of the things I wanted to ask you, or several of the things

01:39:56

I wanted to ask you, Pastor Sam, is tell us something about your area of Kenya.

01:40:02

I mean, people who have never been to Africa, including myself, when we are speaking to somebody from Africa, we sometimes have images conjured up in our minds that this person might be very close to where one might go on a safari and actually see lions and elephants and all kinds of animals like that, some very dangerous, and some people may live in Africa in a very urban area where they're not very close to that kind of thing.

01:40:33

So what is the area of Kenya like that you are in? Thank you,

01:40:39

Chris. Many times when I interact with you, brethren from the

01:40:45

U .S., your perception of Africa is like it's kind of a jungle, people living on trees.

01:40:57

Well, there goes one of my theories. Now, I always ask myself, you know, if people live on trees, you have your ambassador in Kenya.

01:41:07

He should be living on the tallest tree then. What I mean, brother, is that even having spent some time here in the

01:41:20

States, really, I don't see what you people enjoy here in the

01:41:26

States, which is not back at home. Apart from order, I think there's much more order here.

01:41:33

But you come to Nairobi, your capital city, everything you have in the U .S. you'll find there.

01:41:38

You come to Kisumu, everything you have here in the States is there. We live in houses like what

01:41:46

I see here. Some are even better houses. I am insulted by that. Just to prove that we are not living on trees, brother.

01:42:02

Well, you know, if I don't get more donations from Ion Sharpen's Ion listeners, I may be living in a tree.

01:42:12

You know, sometimes the missionaries would like to come to Africa. They think they're going to live in a jungle.

01:42:18

Please be dissuaded from that. You will enjoy everything you are enjoying in the States here.

01:42:24

And we welcome you to come and live with us there. Ion Sharpen and Ion should be down in Kisumu now.

01:42:30

You just relocate. Now, as far as, like, for instance, what you see around here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which is basically a suburb, how different would that be in your area of Kenya from what you have seen here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania?

01:42:51

That is talking about Kisumu particularly? Well, let me just give you a geographical location of my town.

01:43:01

Nairobi is our capital city and has a population of about, going now, 6 million people.

01:43:09

Now, from Nairobi, you drive to the west of Kenya. Kisumu is located at the shorelines of Lake Victoria on the

01:43:19

Kenyan side. It's the biggest town on the Kenyan side along the shores of Lake Victoria.

01:43:26

A population of about, I think now it should be close to a million. And it's a good city, an industrial city.

01:43:36

A few things are happening here. They have fishing going on. A few industries, they have farming going on.

01:43:43

And I believe it's a good place one can live and work as a missionary and enjoy what the

01:43:49

Lord has blessed us with there. There's a lot of work in terms of spreading this good message, the doctrine of grace.

01:44:00

And sometimes we feel that we need more laborers who can labor with us and respect us also as fellow brothers as we labor together.

01:44:08

I want to make it clear, he said he needs more laborers, not liberals. And is the dominant language

01:44:22

English or Swahili? Well, in Kenya, we have official language, which is

01:44:28

English. That is what we use for transaction every day in offices and many other places in trade.

01:44:35

But we have Swahili, which is a much more unifying language. It's the national language.

01:44:42

But the area I come is dominated by Luwals.

01:44:49

Luwals are the major ethnic group along that area of western Kenya. And we have also

01:44:57

Kisses. We have Kuria. We have a bit of Luwia tribe also.

01:45:04

So as much as Luwals are the majority, there is amalgamation of other ethnic groups also in Kisumu.

01:45:11

And where does the word or the name Oluwach come from?

01:45:19

Well, that's a family name. I picked it from my father. My real name is

01:45:26

Oduor. Now, let's forget about that. Let's deal with Oluwach. So actually, you picked the name

01:45:34

Oluwach. Yeah, that's my father's name. Oh, okay. That's his first name? Yeah.

01:45:40

Oh, okay. So I guess that's... Is that a common thing that you do in Kenya as far as how you're named?

01:45:46

Yeah, you carry on your father's name, your grandfather's name, just like that.

01:45:53

I think the same way you people do it here, the family name. Yes, but the... And here, we call it the last name.

01:46:01

I don't know if how that would... Bruce, you know. Yeah, I think what it is is the family name, a lot of times, is only used for official business.

01:46:08

Like the Oduaz, probably the family name, the surname, but it's not used very often except for official business.

01:46:14

I would use that as the last name. Then my surname, Oduor, becomes the middle name.

01:46:20

Then Samuel is the first name. Okay, great. Yeah. And I would like you to give our listeners some prayer requests that you have and also ways that they could help what you are doing to spread the doctrines of sovereign grace in Kenya.

01:46:38

Yes, thanks for that, Chris. As many as those who are listening, please do remember to pray for the work, not only in Kisumu, but the whole of our country,

01:46:51

Kenya. As we've said, the work is very minimal. We are very few.

01:46:57

We are overcrowded by the charismatic movement.

01:47:03

We are insignificant. But we take solace in the fact that God works not with numbers.

01:47:11

He is a God who is able to use a few to make his name known. But anyway, you pray that the

01:47:18

Lord may raise more laborers that will be able to join this army that we believe are fighting a noble battle for the kingdom of God, not only in Kisumu, but all over Kenya.

01:47:32

Now, our desire, as I've mentioned earlier, is to train, raise up men that will be sent to the mission field, especially our cities, because our cities are underserved in terms of biblical ministers, yet missions require that we capture cities first.

01:47:54

For example, Nairobi, I told you, is about six million. I can count only two of strong reformed churches that exist now in Nairobi, Emmanuel Baptist Church and Trinity Baptist Church.

01:48:06

We need more churches in Nairobi. Nairobi can take even 30 reformed churches.

01:48:13

In fact, I'm quietly praying here to relocate to Nairobi, and I pray that the Lord will help me achieve that aim so that we add more forces to that city.

01:48:22

We believe that when we capture Nairobi, we'll be able to spread out into all ends of Kenya from the pinnacle of the city, which is

01:48:33

Nairobi. So pray for that, that men will be found who are ready and well -equipped to take the gospel to the cities.

01:48:44

There is obviously a need to expand the facilities of Kisumu Reformed School of Theology, because as it is now, we are facing a situation whereby we have to turn away applicants because we can't accommodate them.

01:49:00

And we've seen what this seminary is doing in the lives of many. We need your prayers that the

01:49:07

Lord will provide for us that we are able to expand the facilities of Kisumu Reformed School of Theology so that we can accommodate more men and train more men and send more men to the field.

01:49:20

Yeah, to give you some perspective on that, I've seen this church where it would be like a church, someone's church kitchen, a large kitchen, and so you have these bunk beds and a bunk house, and so these men come for a week or 10 days each time, and there's just not enough beds, and they just need to have more places for them to sleep and eat.

01:49:42

Father, study. R .J. in White Plains, New York, wants to know if there are a lot of cults that are

01:49:49

American cults that are surrounding your areas, like the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons.

01:49:56

The presence of Mormons is very minimal. They are there. They roam the streets with their elder badge.

01:50:04

They are there. We see them. And Jehovah's Witnesses are growing. That one is growing very fast.

01:50:10

Now, are people in Kenya aware of the racist roots of Mormonism that until the 1970s, a black man could not even enter the priesthood of the

01:50:23

Mormon Church, and in fact the teaching of Brigham Young was that a black person could never achieve a godhead, or godhood,

01:50:38

I should say, which is what they teach in their own heretical theology about the typical

01:50:47

Mormon who is faithful and obedient and married in a temple service and so on will become a god of his own planet in that religion.

01:50:56

And in the Mormon cult, most a black person could achieve to be a servant of whites in the celestial kingdom,

01:51:06

I believe it is. Do the folks in Kenya, do they have any idea of this kind of past that the

01:51:12

Mormons have? No. And last year in November, I had an opportunity to visit

01:51:19

Utah, Salt Lake City, which is the center of the Mormons in the world.

01:51:24

And I had an opportunity to tour even the temple and be briefed on their movement all over the world.

01:51:30

I appreciated how ignorant we are about the activities. Now, it took me a journey all the way to Utah to get to understand the

01:51:40

Mormons better. How much more those who've not had that kind of opportunity. We do not know anything about them.

01:51:47

And even as we see them roaming around our streets with their elders' badges, people don't suspect.

01:51:55

We don't think they're a harm to anybody in terms of religious movement. So it's like they don't exist.

01:52:03

And they also operate in a very subtle way, so subtle that you can't suspect them.

01:52:11

And with that kind of operation, it's very easy for them to get a few people on board who do not suspect them.

01:52:19

I mean, do they have like a very attractive, expensive facilities? And perhaps,

01:52:26

I don't know if they have a temple there yet, but do they have something that would be drawing the local community to them because they're so astonished at how beautiful their facilities are and so on?

01:52:36

What I noticed in Kisumu, when they came in, they bought this house in the upmarket area.

01:52:45

And it's like they bought it with some loose change. And this is an upmarket place.

01:52:51

Properties there are very expensive. That's where they'll put their temple. And that's where they're drawing people to, and in a very subtle way.

01:53:00

And other than those two, the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons, any other cults that are not necessarily native, homegrown cults where you are, but something that would be being unfortunately imported from the

01:53:15

States and perhaps Western Europe and the UK into Kenya? For Kisumu, I can only talk of those two.

01:53:25

And if you want to call an SDA cult, they're also there in their numbers. An LDA?

01:53:33

SDA. Oh, yeah, the Seventh -Day Adventist. Seventh -Day Adventist. They're also there in big numbers.

01:53:38

Yeah, they're strong in Western Kenya. That's very strong. If you go to Kitali, which is another town in Kenya, that's a town of cult movement in Kenya.

01:53:50

They're all represented there from the West, from amongst the local guys.

01:53:59

Kitali is a boiling point of cults in Kenya. Now, our mutual friend,

01:54:04

Dr. Conrad Mbewe, has very often, I've heard him speak disparagingly about religion that comes out of Nigeria.

01:54:15

He means no insult to the common people of Nigeria. In fact, there's a

01:54:21

Reformed Baptist church there. The pastor of which, I think he is the pastor, listens to this program and has emailed us with questions on occasion.

01:54:31

He's either a pastor or a member there. But why has

01:54:37

Conrad warned us about Nigeria? What is Nigeria notorious for? Nigeria is a good nation.

01:54:46

It's one of the top nations in Africa. If you check the world statistics correctly, they lead in almost every bad thing, including corruption.

01:55:02

The charismatic movement is big in Nigeria. I think Nigeria leads in Africa in terms of charismatic movement.

01:55:09

They reach amongst the charismatic. They are bishops, fly jets. There was once a news reporter who said that Nigeria exports almost everything, including religion.

01:55:24

That's very true. Their churches are there in Kenya. Amongst the top, big, large crowd churches, they've come from Nigeria.

01:55:38

They influence many of our people. They actually act like a cult.

01:55:43

I think they are a cult. I know of some young lady that I was having a

01:55:48

Bible study with, in a group of young people. She was just about to get married.

01:55:54

She kept on postponing her marriage day. I kept on asking her, when is it going to happen?

01:56:00

She said, I'm still waiting for an okay from my bishop in Nigeria. That is properly a cultic movement.

01:56:07

The whole thing is running behind somebody who pulls the strings all over the world.

01:56:13

That is Nigeria churches for you in Kenya. I want to make sure before we conclude, and before we run out of time, that our listeners once again have your websites.

01:56:24

Grace Baptist Church of Kisumu, their website is gracebaptistchurchkisumu .blogspot

01:56:31

.com and that's gracebaptistchurch, K -I -S as in Sam, K -I -S -U -M -U, M as in Michael, u .blogspot

01:56:39

.com. And the Reformed Baptist Church of Pittsburgh, where Dr.

01:56:44

Bruce Epps is a member, rbcpittsburgh .org, R -B -C for Reformed Baptist Church, pittsburgh .org.

01:56:53

Do either of you have any other contact information that you care to give? I guess

01:56:58

I can give an email address, brucepepps, E -P -P -S, at gmail .com.

01:57:07

brucepepps, at gmail .com. And don't forget about the conference in Kenya that our guest,

01:57:16

Dr. Sam Owach, is orchestrating with Dr. Conrad Mbewe of Kibwata Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia, Africa.

01:57:25

And tell us about those dates again. It begins from 11th, that should be a

01:57:31

Monday, all the way to 16th. Of December. Of December. Of 2017.

01:57:37

And we hope that as many of our listeners as possible can get there from wherever they live.

01:57:43

And Dr. Bruce. They can also reach me at, I have a new appointment, I'm working for Missional University now, so they can send it to B -E -P -P -S at Missional University.

01:57:55

At missionaluniversity. They don't seem to have a dot. Really? Yeah, I've never heard of anybody not having a dot on the end.

01:58:02

Okay, well I'm sure if they Google that. They'll Google that. Something will come up. And you have about a minute

01:58:10

Pastor Sam, to just conclude with a summary of what you most want our listeners to remember today.

01:58:17

Chris, our discussion today was around Tulip. I mean, these are not just things that we've popped up with from nowhere.

01:58:29

They're Biblical, and I'd like to encourage and urge all Christians, Bible -believing churches in the world, to embrace

01:58:36

Tulip. Amen. Total depravity, unconditional election, irresistible grace, limited atonement, and perseverance of sin.

01:58:46

Challenge me anytime, anywhere, I'll show you they're in the Bible. Amen. Amen. That's great to hear.

01:58:51

And Dr. Bruce Epps, do you have any final words? I just want to encourage all the brethren to, it's a big world out there, and there's a lot of Reformed Baptists, and also good

01:59:02

Reformed people around the world, and it can be a very small place if we all communicate through means such as WhatsApp or others.

01:59:10

Pray for one another. We actually do that, and so you try to bless other people, and you'll end up being more blessed yourself when you fellowship with the brethren.

01:59:20

Amen. And since it's Memorial Day weekend, why not reach out to a veteran who is disabled perhaps, or the family of a fallen veteran, and I hope that you all have a safe and richly blessed

01:59:31

Memorial Day weekend, and Lord's Day, and we look forward to receiving your emails next week for our guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:59:40

I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater