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Some sects of Muslims, they believe in trinity. You have to believe Jesus is not born. He's come from the spirit of God. I think it's a different version, you know, but there is some version in Muslim Islam as well.
So I think it is in Christian where they may be right.
That's what they think. Every religion is different. The Christian religion, they think in their way. Muslim people think in their way. So no one knows the truth. It's confusing. Yeah, a little bit confusing.
I can't tell you. I can't answer to this question.
Hi and welcome to Midnight Cry, a program that is committed to speaking the truth in love. I'm your host, Romul Ghossein, and today we have with us Dr. James White, who will be discussing with us on this second episode the doctrine of the Trinity.
First of all, welcome to the show, James.
Good to be back with you. We didn't quite get through everything we needed to get to on the first run.
Yes, it's a very big subject. I'd like to look at it now, if we can, specifically through Philippians chapter 2, if we can, the humility of Christ.
This is a text in Philippians chapter 2 that's called the Carmen Christi, the hymn to Christ as to God. And it illustrates that the earliest Christians from the very beginning, I'm not talking about the Council of Nicaea here in 325, I'm talking about the earliest Christians within the first two decades after the death of Christ viewed Jesus as God.
This may well be, in fact in some translations of the Bible it's set off as poetry, it may well be a fragment of an ancient hymn of the church, which means that in the most primitive worship of the church, this high view of Jesus was a given.
It was not something that developed over time. It was not something that was the result of politics or evolution or anything like that. In fact, I would say that if the early church in the first two decades after Jesus are singing songs about Jesus being exalted, and in fact describing Him as Yahweh, there's only one source that could come from, and that's from Jesus and His disciples directly.
Because this is during a time period where the eyewitnesses of the resurrection are still a part of the church. And so it's a beautiful, beautiful text. Interestingly enough, it's a sermon illustration.
It is an illustration in the first four verses of Philippians chapter 2 of what humility of mind is. What do I mean by that? What is truly being humble in the Christian church? Well, I would suggest that humility of mind is having certain rights.
There is an equality amongst believers. No one is more of a Christian than another person, even though you might recognize elders and deacons and things like that. No one is more special to God in the sense, as it has been well said, that the ground at the foot of the cross is level.
It's not like there are some that are more Christian than other people. And so in light of the fact that we have equality with one another, how then can we show humility of mind? We do so by laying aside the rights that are ours in the service of other people.
So he says in those first four verses, don't just look to yourself. Do nothing for selfishness or empty conceit. But with humility of mind, regard one another as more important than yourselves. Don't look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
So what is the key here? It's serving others. Don't demand that you be served. Serve others. That's very important because then he uses this attitude, having this attitude in yourselves that was also in Christ Jesus, as a sermon illustration.
It would be like how many times you've heard in a sermon in a Christian church, the pastor will take from a hymn that we all know, a familiar phrase, and will use it as an illustration in the sermon. He's drawing from something that we all know.
Well, that's what Paul's doing here. And so that's going to become important here in a moment. So notice what he says. Have this attitude in yourselves, which is also in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing literally to be held on to.
Not to be grasped at, but it was something that he had, and it's not something that he felt he had to hold on to at all costs. But instead, literally he emptied himself. And the term is a term that Paul never uses literally.
He always uses it metaphorically. And so I've often translated it. He made himself of no reputation, similar to how the King James renders it. Taking the form of a bondservant and being made in the likeness of men, and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself.
Notice he humbled himself just as earlier he emptied himself. So these are actions of Jesus. He made himself of no repute. Now he humbles himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even the death one dies on a cross.
And the background of that, of course, is the fact that death by crucifixion was a cruel, public, humiliating, grisly, difficult way of death. And yet he humbles himself. And again, and we emphasized this before, the willingness of Christ, the self-sacrifice of Christ, the fact that he voluntarily gives himself, comes out again in this text as well.
Even the death of the cross. For this reason also, God, and that would be the Father, has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, so that the exalted name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven, on earth, and under an earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is kurios, is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Now, when it says every knee will bow, this is actually drawing from the Old Testament, where every knee bows to Yahweh. And it is very, very clear that when it says that Jesus Christ is Lord, that word Lord, kurios, in the Greek language, was the word that the translators of the Greek Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, used for the name of God, for Yahweh in the Old Testament.
And so here you have this text, and you have Jesus eternally existing in the morphe tutheu, the form of God. Now, some people say, well, that just means he was a spirit being. No, because he's going to take on the morphe of a servant.
He was truly a servant, which means he was truly God. He's eternally existing in the form of God, and it says he has equality with the Father. I think this can be illustrated elsewhere in Scripture. For example, in John chapter 12, when John takes us back to that beautiful temple vision that Isaiah had.
If you remember in Isaiah chapter 6, in the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord lofty and lifted up, sitting on his throne. And the cherubim surround him, and they cry out, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts.
And John tells us in John 12, the person that was seen there was Jesus, which is something a lot of people miss, and they read John 12 through 93 -41, but if you actually look at it very carefully, this is what John is indicating to you, that this is the one who was seen upon the throne, is Jesus himself.
He is Yahweh, and so in his preexistence, he has the worship of the angelic hosts. He is described as the one through whom all things have been created. So think about the humiliation, the humbleness that is illustrated in the one who has been eternally worshipped, doing what is described of Jesus here, where he makes himself of no reputation.
The one who is worshipped by angels makes himself of no reputation. He takes on the form of a bondservant. The one who has been served by mighty angelic creatures now serves. He takes on the form of a bondservant, being made in the likeness of human beings.
These created creatures. This truly is the condescension of the Son of God entering into our existence and being found in appearance as a man. He doesn't demand that he enter into human flesh as a great king or as a great conqueror.
He is born in humble circumstances. He lives the vast majority of his life without the world even noticing that he's there. He's in Joseph's carpenter shop. He's actually a skilled worker. A carpenter wasn't just a nobody back then.
He was a skilled worker, but for 30 years. He is quiet. The world does not know. He's actually living a perfect life in obedience to the Father. He's loving the Father perfectly. He's fulfilling his law.
He's loving his neighbor as himself. But then he enters into his ministry. And he is mistreated by his own people. Those who should have recognized him show hatred toward him. Does he lash out in anger?
Does he bring, as he says when he goes to the cross, I could ask my Father and he would give me a legion of angels. Twelve legions of angels. One angel came down one night in the Old Testament and killed 180 ,000 Assyrians.
Can you imagine what a legion of angels would do? Amazing power that was available to him. But it's restrained. He keeps it in because he has a purpose, you see, that he's accomplishing. What tremendous condescension.
Being found to appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death. How many people are obedient to that point? How many of the greatest men of history can we say were obedient to God's will even to the point of death on a cross?
Many times Muslims, when they think of the death of Jesus, they look at the garden and they go, many men have gone to their deaths without asking to be released from that. I've actually had Muslims accuse Jesus of a level of cowardice, at least the Jesus of the Bible.
Maybe they were saying that the Bible's been corrupted or something at that point. But to pray that this cup would be removed from him, how dare he do that? Many people have gone into battle bravely. What was it that made Jesus pray as he did in the garden?
Now remember, prayer for Jesus is perfectly natural. He has had perfect union with the Father for all of eternity. If the second person of the Trinity becomes flesh, do you think he's going to be an atheist?
Do you think he's going to stop this fellowship he's had with the Father? Of course not. There is going to be continued fellowship between the Father and the Son. Why is he praying in the garden? It's not the physical death.
It's not the beating. It's not the pain. It's not the agony. It's not the suffering. It is what Paul expressed in 2 Corinthians 5 when he says, He who knew no sin was made sin in our behalf that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
It was taking that burden of sin, being made sin and being treated as if he had committed all the sins of God's people. This is what causes the Holy Son of God to pray as he does in the garden and to sweat as it were drops of blood.
Not the beating. Not the physical death. No one had ever faced anything like this. He as a unique person is facing a unique death.
Yes, and how important is that? I mean you mentioned that he came down. There is a beautiful hymn which we love to sing which says that the great distance that God did span. When we think of the humility of God, of Christ, we think of that great distance that he came down and not just to be anybody, somebody special.
He could have been seated on the greatest throne and that was one of his temptations. But the Lord Jesus, the reason why he came as a simple babe and as it were he was an ordinary person yet sinless was because his kingdom was not of this world.
His kingdom was forever. He had nothing to do with this world system and the thrones that were placed upon this earth because his throne, his kingdom would be forevermore. And if we understand Scripture correctly, this great Jesus, this great Yahweh, one day he will come back with power and with authority and this passage that you took us through that you looked at, it not only describes to us his humiliation but also his exaltation.
And I think how important is that? And I think sometimes the Muslim mindset is that when they look at the life of Jesus, they see this weak character almost but they forget his ascension. They forget his exaltation.
They forget that it takes a strong person to be resurrected. Well, not only that.
When they say that Jesus was not called to be the Messiah for the whole world, not called to be the Savior of the world, these words coming from the most primitive church of God's exaltation of Jesus and bestowed on him the name which is above every name including the name of Muhammad so that at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow.
Now, you say, well, what's significant about that? Well, because if you go back to the book of Isaiah, and I mentioned this very quickly but let me read this to you. Here is Yahweh speaking. He says, I have sworn by myself, the word has gone forth from my mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
They will say of me only in Yahweh are righteousness and strength. Men will come to him and all who were angry at him will be put to shame. Yes. This is the very text that the church is drawing from to say, look, you need to realize something.
This Jesus is not a mere Rasul and he will not accept someone who limits him in that way. Just as in John chapter 8 when he said, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins. So to hear every knee will bow to the Lord, the Kurios, Jesus.
That will either be to our salvation in this life or we will bow the knee before him as judge in the life to come. And the Jesus that we proclaim to the Muslim people is a loving Jesus. There is no question about that.
But don't take that to be a sign of weakness because the Lord Jesus rules the nations with a rod of iron and he will judge in righteousness when he returns and unless you have been made right with God through his work in your behalf, there will be no other righteousness that will avail.
That's right. It is vitally important to recognize this. The gospel is a loving invitation, but it is also an authoritative command. Yes. God does not suggest to men everywhere that they repent and believe in Jesus.
He commands that they repent and believe in Jesus. And so this is vitally, vitally important to understand this message. And the Muslim needs to understand that while Jesus voluntarily gave himself, that was an act of power.
That was an act of power. Think of the power that was his that was being restrained. And remember I said that one of the keys to interpreting this text was the fact this was a sermon illustration of humility.
Some people look at this, and I need to very quickly mention this, some people look at this and say, well, what verse 6 is actually saying is Jesus was not equal with God and he didn't give consideration to trying to become equal.
But which would be an act of humility? To be a mere angel or a mere created being and not try to become equal with God? Or to have equality with the Father and not hold on to it but lay it aside in service to others?
We know what humility is. If Jesus was not equal to the Father, then this is not an illustration of humility. It's just not committing blasphemy. That's right. But if he was equal with the Father, and he voluntarily lays that aside, enters into human existence to serve, yes, do the Father's will, but also to serve those of us he calls his brothers.
Because in the church we are part of his body. That is the greatest example of humility that has ever been seen. That's right. That's what the Cardinal Christie shows us.
Yes, I mean you mentioned that name. There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. There is only one name. And unless we recognize that name and we know that name, not the name itself as though it's some magic potion, but that we have an intimate knowledge of Jesus Christ, his purpose, his mission for us on earth, we will not be able to come close to God's salvation.
I mean I love the way that you mentioned the restrain that he showed. It's not a picture of cowardice. I mean when he was on that cross, the restrain that he showed there only proves that he was God. When he was being scolded, when he was being mocked, when he was being accused of so many things, what would a natural sinful man would do?
To his very last breath he would proclaim his innocence. His innocence, yes.
You know? Yes, but he allowed his own testimony to speak at that point. We do need to see, when we look at the cross, when we look at the cross we see the love of God, but we see it only in one sense, if we do not see in the cross the wrath of God as well.
Because Jesus has taken the wrath that was due to our sin upon himself. This is God absorbing that which is necessary to the vindication of his own justice. And when you see that, then you truly see the depth of the love of God that is being expressed at the exact same time.
Sure. And our Muslim friends need to see that. Understand that, yes.
Now if I can ask you some of the common questions that Muslims do ask, such as, if Jesus is God and all prayer is directed to God, why did Jesus pray to the Father while he was on earth?
Well, let's point out that John 14, 14 also tells us that prayer is directed to Jesus. In fact, the early Christians were known as those who called upon the name of Jesus. That term epikaleo is used of prayer.
So prayer to Jesus is found in the New Testament as well, which would indicate that he is deity. But why would Jesus pray? Well, as I said before, if the second person of the Trinity entered into human existence, would he cease the communication that he had been having with the Father for all of eternity?
Would he be an atheist? I mean, what is a just man but one who prays and communicates to God? That's a good point, yes. So if he is a perfect man, he is going to desire communication with the Father. And in fact, Jesus does that.
He is the example par excellence. If the only reason was to provide us with an example, that would be enough. But that's not the only reason. The reason is the union that he has with the Father, the fellowship he has with the Father, the love he has with the Father, which has been expressed through all of eternity, had to continue.
And the God-man would pray. He would have to. The Muslim is misunderstanding the issue because they're thinking as a Unitarian. And they're thinking that all of God has become man, as there's no one to pray to.
They have to recognize that while the being of God is one, three persons are described in Scripture.
Yes, the greatness of God, definitely. Second question, if God is omniscient, why didn't Jesus then know the hour and the time of his return?
There are a number of things that because of the Incarnation, Jesus voluntarily lays aside in the exercise of his Messiahship and Saviorhood. So, for example, the glory that was his only once is seen by mortal man.
That's on the Mount of Transfiguration. Like it's said many times, he doesn't walk down the road glowing or something like that. And so there has been a veiling of the glory that was his. And for some reason, and I don't know that it's a reason that I can necessarily explain, I think the primary emphasis in the book of Matthew at that point in making that statement is that it is in the Father's control to set that time.
And that Jesus, as our representative, is showing us that we are to leave that fully in the Father's hand. And so that it doesn't come from the Son, it doesn't come from the Spirit. The Spirit would certainly know that time because the Spirit searches the deep things of God.
And would that be something that the Son would know post-resurrection? I would say that it is. But that during the time of his Incarnation, it is one of those things that is laid aside or veiled so that he can perfectly function as man and perfectly function as Messiah and as our Savior.
And it is a voluntary veiling. Third question. This one's a tough one. I think this is a tough one.
Oh, the last one wasn't a tough one? Yeah, it was, it was. But I think this one especially strikes a chord with Christians. If Jesus is God, then why did he say that the Father is greater than I?
Actually, that one's an easy one. Believe it or not, John 14, 28 truly is one of the easy ones if we will just allow it to speak in its own context. First of all, John 14 as a whole contains so many references to the deity of Christ that when people use it to attack the deity of Christ, I have to start chuckling just a little bit.
But the whole verse says Jesus is going back to the Father. And he says, Well, what is that saying? Well, he's going back to where he was before. Right now he is in a state of humiliation upon this earth.
He's walking the dusty roads of Galilee. He is going back into the presence of the Father. And if we loved him, we would rejoice because the Father is greater than I am. The term greater there does not mean better in kind.
It means greater in position. The Father has not, his glory hasn't been veiled. He hasn't been, he isn't walking the dusty roads of Galilee. He's not having to constantly deal with the scribes and Pharisees trying to trip him up in every word.
Exactly. And so he is going to be going back into that position that he had before, which he describes in John 17 5. So the term is not saying the Father is better than I am as in a different kind of being.
The Father is in a better position than I am in. And I am returning back to that position with him where I will once again be the object of the worship of angels and the heavenly host.
James, thank you so much for your time. It's great to be with you. As you've been able to listen, we've been able to discuss on this second episode the Trinity. Specifically, we've been talking about the humility and the exaltation of Jesus Christ.
He is a great God and it takes great power and great restraint. And if he wasn't God, he would not be able to come down as a humble babe and to grow up and to be able to walk this guilty road, this road that was filled with guilt and sin, and to be able to be subjected to that and remain apart from sin.
For what reason? So that he might be able to save you. We hope that these words that have been spoken would penetrate your heart, especially if you're a Muslim. We hope that you would be able to see for yourself that Jesus truly is the Messiah.
He is the saviour of the world. Please stay in tune for the very next episode of Midnight Cry as we do discuss many more subjects. May God bless you. Thank you.