The Laborers' Podcast- Church Polity

Hello and welcome to the laborers podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight Tonight we're going to be talking about polity

Church government the structure of how God wants the church to to be ran

We hope you can stick with us and for the entirety of the program and it begins right now

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So how was everybody doing tonight? Doing all right happy to be here good me too me too.

So so polity That's one of those words that I had never heard before was unfamiliar

Just like eschatology Ecclesiology, you know all these all these big words that people that go to college use

Wasn't familiar with it. So Give me a quick definition of Polity when we say polity, what do we mean?

well the term polity a Little bit of history it actually goes back to Aristotle when he was wrestling through the idea of governments and different government structures with you know

Kings and Different kinds of structures and he proposed what he called a polity this idea of getting every demographic in a room together having representatives from every background every

Group of people and having them represent those people in a larger

Mechanization, I guess you could say is this Similar to what we would think of with Congress. Um, he called polity, but it was wider.

There was you had every different ethnic background every social standing all that so he called that polity and So when we talk about church polity, it's a similar idea

We're talking about having a group of people that represent the church body in a specific set of functions it's weird to Just say church government, but it's kind of Kind of what it is that how how

God runs his church and his structure in that Tyler I'm thankful you're on this program

Us Too hey Tyler, I'm gonna make a public statement here Cuz all these guys big

John All the other guys the other guys, they're probably men enough to handle this but without a doubt

I say hands down You are the most intelligent man on this podcast

I'm very humbled by that statement Claude. Thank you. I mean that That's not a statement

I take lightly Yeah, we're thankful for you. Absolutely. Absolutely well tonight's questions that I put together are

They're not going to be deep As far as theological

They're gonna be more practical. I Didn't want to get too lost in the weeds, but I just wanted to have us wanted us to have a candid conversation up and out this subject in its in its practical terms, so And the question that I started off with I think is one that I've not really heard

Too many people address So here it is before we you know, we want to go to proof takes we want to support our

Stance where we stand on this issue Because there's different approaches different interpretations.

But before we get to that section we begin to Prove our point

Tell where we stand and while we stand there before we examine these those specific takes to prove our position from a biblical theology point of view in other words from a bird's -eye view

Looking at the Bible as a whole not systematically but as a Bible follows a whole

What role does church polity and structure and leadership have in the overall plan for the world?

so in other words God's plan for how he wants the local church to to be operated

What effect does that have on his greater plan for? The world evangelism the

Great Commission the the future of Christianity What's your perspective on on that?

If I could I'm sorry Yeah, well I was thinking through this a little bit today and I kept coming back to some of the the eschatological texts that we often focus on like Isaiah 2 and Revelation 21 this idea of The temple this idea of this this thing that we're striving towards as they add to it says in the last days that the the mountain of the

Lord's house will be Established at the top of the mountains and will be raised above the hills and it says all nations will stream to it in CSB others say flow

But the important thing there is that water doesn't flow up mountains. It has to be drawn in.

Mm -hmm And this is and many peoples will come and say come let's go up to the mountain of the

Lord to the house of the God of Jacob and he will teach us about his ways so that we may walk in his paths and I I came to that passage

Because when I we recognize that this is where God is drawing all nations that he is bringing

All to himself that he is reconciling to himself all things that Christ may be all in all but in addition to that in the house of the

Lord that that is the temple in the Old Testament there was there was a structure in there that you had certain levels of of people you had people that worked in the temple you had things like that and While that's not the end goal is to go be priests and all of that The idea is that that all served a purpose that it all had a purpose in building up the people of God in the

Old Testament and there are some Principles there that carry over to how we look at the church because the church is the true

Israel It is the true temple. It is the true people of God and So when we look at where we're going where the world is going and where the church is going that is the picture of the guy's painting is that that ransom people and The when we talk about the structure in the church, that's what we should be pointing to is

Things have got the kingdom of God What God is going to do someday and how he has invited us to?

Join in that divine plan not in the sense that we are we share in who God is but that there is a

That there's a piece in this puzzle where we fit if I make a sense Mm -hmm.

So I'm gonna stress just a little bit on this one part if that's okay I Agree wholeheartedly what you said

Tyler so no disagreement there whatsoever But I would also say I Would say church polity currently should be a reflection of futuristic polity when the the full manifestation of the kingdom

God is is coming in hand and so If you were to ask my congregation who is the lead pastor of this local church?

They better say Jesus Christ If they don't I take them to task. Okay, and that's not a new thing.

I Ask them that all the time. Who's the head pastor of this church? Who is the head pastor and they're gonna say

Jesus and our new folks kind of look at me kind of funny But that is a very true statement now and Futuristically Christ is the head of the church period the church that the the the worldwide

Church the kingdom and every Local church. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

So he is the singular head of the church and Then as Christ is the head

Then Ephesians 4 tells us he's appointed Apostles and pastors and teachers and preachers and missionaries and however, you want to phrase those things out and parse those out but Ephesians chapter 4

He's he's given us those things and as leaders in the church

And why for the equipping of the Saints for the work of their ministry, so it's a multiplication from Christ who gives the vision to leaders who are shepherding and equipping to to the whole body and So I think

Christ first of all sets a hierarchy up That should be foreshadowing of what the eternal kingdom is

The worldwide church kingdom should be modeled in the local church and so that's first of all where local church policy is extremely important and I There there's not a

And many would take me to task on this statement. I don't believe that there is an exact Prescription to say this is exactly how it is to be laid out there's things that are inferred but that's even like getting into other questions, so we'll deal with that in a minute, but But whatever that looks like I think we should be foreshadowing

Were the worldwide kingdom to come, you know, which is the kingdom of God is at hand and we should be foreshadowing that That's the first thing.

The second thing is We need to realize and should

Not arrogantly, so I want to say this very carefully not arrogantly act in this manner

But worldwide there is going to be Christian authority We already have authority, but there's a coming authority and and it's not a passage that I hear many guys

Preach on but like in 1st Corinthians chapter 6 Verses 2 & 3 Paul is saying don't you don't you know that you're gonna even be ruling over angels

You're judging angels Like there is this authority of these ransom people that that Tyler was talking about That now we're already seated in heavenly places with him in Ephesians chapter 2 and so in the mind of God It's it's a pretty neat study to talk about the the authority in the futuristic

Worldwide kingdom of the authority of the Christians to to even judge angels now now what is there to judge in that?

I know we can start unpacking all of that, but but really probably it lands that we'll have Some kind of role or part in judging the fallen angels at some level

I mean holy angels will not be have nothing to be judged up You know that they'd be at the throne of God without sin, but there are those that have rebelled against God And so so if we're judging angels and we can imagine even below that Down Paul is stating.

There is authority of the Christians that will be ruling in the earth I don't know guys.

I'll be the first to raise my hand to say I have no idea But we have a glimpse of foreshadowing

In the manifestation of the kingdom of God and where the earth is headed in the worldwide

So my point in all of that is to say if that's what God has ordained

For our future then why not begin to practice those things now, you know begin to put in place a foreshadowing of the kingdom ahead and actually practice

The kingdom of God is at hand with Christ as the head and leaders and elders and pastors and teachers

That he has put in place in authority of the church that should be honored as the Bible says especially those that labor in the word and teaching in the word and in their

Design is for them not to domineer or rule over the people in the manner of rule as we think with a rod of iron

But it's for the sake of equipping the Saints for the work of ministry It's a shepherding equipping and exhorting.

There is a rebuking when necessary, but there is a resorting and so so we have authority Under the authority of Christ that Christ has called and give to people with authority

So that they can empower people and multiply authority and eventually if church quality is done correctly

We should be multiplying the authority of Christ and the authority of the church in the governance

Across the whole wide world. And so so I think that's That's why to me.

It's important worldwide. I think this is God's design for Effective multiplication the final thing

I'll say is if you've got godly elders, you're gonna have missional people and if you have You're gonna have unmissional people.

It's just that simple So if you have elders that have the heart of Christ that multiply that into their people

Then you're gonna have missional people that's going to multiply that into other people. It's just it's just a fruit of it

But if you don't have godly elders if you've got power hungry or self -centered or people -pleasing elders

Then you're not going to have a missional church and you'll be forsaking the commission of Christ And so so that's like the last thing

I'll say which is is on the practical side. That's important worldwide because I would say more than likely every faithful man of God that is preaching the

Word of God or Living out in mission can point back in their life at some point time

Some man of God or some person of authority under God that has poured into their life that God used that to spark a fire in their life and it continues and so That's very very important in leadership there.

So, thank you. Claude do you have any?

No, sir. I'm enjoying this. What about you? What about you? Well, I would only think about Two other things and I'm sure there's some so much more but the two other things that I had thought about was the first one is

I thought about Luke and and Luke Luke 16 says whoever whoever can be trusted and and I don't want to take it stretch it

Take it too far out of context, but it says whoever can be trusted with the small things Can also be trusted with with big things and and I guess

I'm taking Principle out of that and I'm thinking Sorry Sorry, wrong button

Was that Jack Nicholson? Whoever can be trusted over little things

Yeah, you can't handle the truth You can't handle it Sorry But I guess

I guess I'm taking a principle out of that You know, if you are if you can be in trust with the small things

You know, God will increase that that trust and and responsibility and so we want to You know

Most of us are not in mega churches. We're in small rural churches And so I would consider that, you know small things and even this this ministry here

Dan and I was talking about this before our podcast on Tuesday night this week, but think about guys like Bodhi Bach or One of the guys that we we know

Gary DeMar or some of these other guys that are really popular in our circles that we that we may listen to their podcast or You may have to pay a little bit of money or a lot of money to come get them to speak at your conference or your church or something

If you think about it in the scope of things in America What would you say?

Maybe if you were to ask it 90 98 % of Americans who is

Just Bodhi Bach for example 98 % of Americans probably

Would not know who that is But but we do and we you know, we think he's wonderful. We want to pray for him

We're thankful that God has given up the church Bodhi Bach but and so Our little ministries that we have in our areas, you know, they're small things and we want to be responsible there

We want to be biblical there We want to follow the biblical model how God has laid it out there in our local churches and our small ministries

So that whatever else God does Give us to do, you know

We will be obedient and faithful and responsible in those things as well. And then the other thing that I was thinking about is

If you're thinking about how does how does my local church structure affect

Global ministry Who are the people who are the people that are supposed to be going out doing the ministry?

Who are the people that are supposed to be equipped to go out and do the ministry? Those in your congregation, yeah, and who is supposed to be doing the equipping

Yeah, that's the leaders in the church. Yeah, so We want to make sure that we are being faithful and obedient to the

Word of God in in our structure in in our scope of ministry so that we are leading those and equipping those who are going to be going out into the world to be

Faithful and obedient Following Christ, you know correctly. So those are two ways that I thought about how even in our small circumstances

Being faithful is is so important and how it can affect the world. So the next question

And and here's kind of some of the questions that are getting down to the nitty -gritty. What are the consequences? Consequences for not following God's plan for the local church from a universal long -term perspective

So, so once we start down a slippery slope You what? What are the consequences kind of long -term?

How does that affect the church? You have any thoughts called we'll start with you

Yes, sir. So I would say there that the consequence the long -term consequence is in not having the standards for church polity or church government is that Things like a

Like a rubber band right so Jonathan talked about stretching us earlier I love that how

Jonathan does that every podcast he says so I'm gonna stretch us here. Is that okay? That's a rhetorical question.

Is is that okay is rhetorical when Jonathan says opens with I'm gonna stretch us basically just be ready to be stretched

But what happens with a rubber band if you continually stretch it you continually expand it, right?

You can there are different rubber bands made for different things, right? If you're making a rubber band ball, you can start with little bitty rubber bands

But when you get to the outside, you got to get bigger and bigger rubber bands, right because it grows

So I think with the church the long -term consequence for not having fixed standards for church polity is

Looseness, right? Now I'm not saying that we we're so rigid.

We'd be so rigid that we we snap at the first Slide of pressure that's applied

But I'm not I'm also not saying that we'd be so loose that anything and everything goes that we go to the scripture, of course as our standard and in best apply what we

What we see in the text of Scripture. The reality is that is with everything as human beings

Everything that we touch at so with at some point or another is going to be screwed up bottom line because we're humans and but God's God is

God's Perfect Ordination and set up and design for the world

His church Is just that it's perfect, but we we must always return back to the scripture because a long -term consequence

Demonstrates looseness and in the world's eyes, I would say that it demonstrates a lack of continuity

That God's people have with God's Word Yeah What's that?

Common phrase in the book of Judges in those days Israel had no king and every man did what was right in his own eyes, right?

Obviously that's not about a pastor or an elder But I think there are there's a principle there that definitely carries over that they as club is saying they played fast and loose with what

God is called good with what God is called wicked and we can basically just Interpret that how we will and we can figure this out

And that's that that seems to be Sometimes how we look at things with this particular area with church government or polity

Whatever term we want to use here that we can we can figure this out. I took church

Administration at one one college and they pretty much presented it like a business.

Yeah that the Basically, we can look at the church like it's a business.

We can lead it like a business we can develop the Leadership styles and skills that you need to be a good pastor by reading these people talking about being a

CEO. Yep, and So then you've got this disconnect here between what a pastor is with what a church is and what we're doing

Yep The only comment I would add is when when

Claude was saying loose and the same thing with Tyler When there's no King when there's no leader when there's no the principle people do what's right in their own eyes

The consequences of doing what's right in our own eyes or being a loose Will result in a an abandonment of a gospel centric

Christ centric theology and when always land in a human centered theology

That's right, and it's one of the primary issues that that I love to address in Western and culture church

And I'm sure it's worldwide But at the end of the day in America Elder polity is so difficult because we live in in a democratic

Government so everybody wants to vote everybody wants to to have their voice heard everybody

But at the end of the day that We have to have leaders that it's not about the opinions and the whims of people.

It's about the truth of Scripture that lead to a Christocentric theology and again

I've been raised up and attended and been a part of probably every form of those different leadership models

And so when we do when we get loose as Clause said in leadership Or as Tyler's saying people where there is no leader where there is no

King where there is no authority People's going to do what's right in their own eyes And we can only go back to Genesis 3 and find out what that's going to be

Adam we are we're going to put ourselves And whatever Makes us feel good.

Whatever makes us feel comfortable. Whatever entertains us. Whatever pleases us

That's what we're going to do. Yeah, and then then we abandon the pleasure and the authority of God in the midst of that.

So Someone steal a line from Paul Washer Well now that we're talking about consequences

So when that happens Paul Washer said there's not have been a single church in the entire world

That bore the name of Jesus that has died that God didn't kill it and So in his point in saying that is

Jesus set up on this rock I'll build my church and not even the gates of hell will stop it So if the gates of hell can't even stop his church, then why why is there 4 ,000?

Churches a year closing in the United States. Why is there far more dying that are being planted in an annual basis?

What is this erosion and so that's why this is even though we're covering it from a very practical standpoint

This is a very serious issue In the United States because there has been an abandonment of the gospel

The judgment of God starts at the house of God and so therefore play in games

When we have elders that will not lead we have church leaders that will not lead to make a

Christ centered Christ glorifying Church, and so God's not going to share his glory with his creation

So he is in his home. No one touches the glory of God This is a very serious matter

That that is a serious consequence in our culture on local church all the way from From the judgment of God in the midst of the church that it begins at the house of God Which should be the most

God -glorifying entity in all the world, but in many ways when it's lack of leadership lack of polity

Then man does what's right in his own eyes. It's not going to be God -centered God -glorifying It's going to be man -centered and man -glorifying

And then God's going to shut it down man like he's not going to play games with that And so we talk about consequences it gets heavier

You can run on down that hill and watch how the water runs and it gets more and more and more serious in The world we live in today.

So let me affirm that with the scripture Revelation chapter 2 to the angel of the church at Ephesus right these things says he who holds the seven stars in his right hand

Who walks in the midst of seven golden lampstands? I know your works your labor your patience and that you cannot bear those who are evil and you

Attested those who say they are apostles and are not and have found them liars and you have persevered and Have patience and have labored for my name's sake and have not become weary Nevertheless, I have this against you that you have left your first love

Remember therefore from where you have fallen Repent and do the first works and here's the consequence or else

I will come quickly and remove your lampstand from its place Unless you repent

Unless you repent and that's exactly what Jonathan was talking about right there. What or is that what you were saying?

I mean That's a hundred percent it because I mean this this the scripture, of course

Interprets the scripture on and I know we're not on Revelation But you know the the mystery really if you'll just sit down and read it

The mystery is taken away to a great degree The Lord explains that this a lot most of the symbol symbology and topology in it

But he even says in chapter 1 verse 20 the mystery of the seven stars Which is on my right hand and the seven golden lampstands

The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands, which you saw are the seven churches.

So The lampstands are the churches the spirits or the the angels are the messengers of the churches

Which are the pastor the pastors? Yeah, the preachers, yep so Rob real quick Did you

I didn't see it in here. But did you did you want us to do a quick definition of?

of the options of church polity We can we can just like two minutes, can

I do that? Oh, yeah That'll be fine. Yeah, can I just comment on what we're talking about?

Yes before before you do that. Um, I Jonathan was pastor

Jonathan was giving us perspective. I mean, I mean really perspective and I think

Yes. Yes, Jonathan. We can we can continue down that conversation and really delve into the seriousness of Where you were taking us, but but where you just took us was you

Enough to make us pause. Yeah serious and my mind was going to where you took us called to the lampstand the rule of lampstand and you think about the passage that The gates of hell and and you that's

Jonathan you brought this up The gates of hell will not prevail it against the church

And and that can they can cause a good and proper confidence in in the

Lord Jesus Christ But go back to what Claude was talking about earlier. It can also cause a a looseness in how we behave and and when we when we depart from confidence in the

Lord Jesus Christ to Looseness and then we began to do things How we want to do things boy

We better begin to take serious that idea that No, the gates of hell can will not prevail against the church of the

Lord Jesus Christ but If we're not lining up with him and bowing our knee to him and submitting to him.

Yep You'll remove our lampstand, which is the church and And I think

I mean loves to it's not it's not in condemnation I don't want to misrepresent it.

It's not in wrath You know of lightning bolts coming from heaven or those kind of stuff.

It is in love It's in love for his own glory in his own Righteous and holiness and it's in love for his children to say

That I'm not gonna stand for my children to remain in a man -centered theology

That is a grace. It doesn't feel like graceful because it's Spanking or hunting, you know, but that is grace that God does not tolerate that he's not going to leave us there

He's patient and long -suffering But he's not going to just leave us there. And and so I'm thankful for the grace of God He does this for those whom he loves and I just wanted to put that in there the

Church of Ephesus He's speaking to them in love You know, but it but it's correction, you know, so a good father makes his children and so Just keep that in mind

I hope but you're right Robert and it it it's sobering We wouldn't it especially in doing church planting

We get the opportunity to to walk with young church plants to create a

DNA of good church polity and good church structure and and I'm We want to be very graceful in that there room for variance

But At the same time there's there's non -negotiables as well, you know, I think it's very important So, yeah, so consequences are heavy that I just want to make sure we understand that this isn't just a matter of Personal personal preference,

I mean this We we are my whole point of bringing those statistics up We're witnessing the consequences of the abandonment of biblical church polity

In America, we are witnessing this as As and I know we could get into a whole big post meal conversation here, so I don't want to do that, right

Are you sure? But temporarily, yeah,

I will say and I'm hopeful For our future and I am confident in an absolute authority of Christ in his return

But at least temporarily and our vapor of a life We are becoming less

Christian. We are becoming less church led church rules and so And it's very evident in our secular society and in church society too, it's it's right now it's

You have you have it's becoming very extremes I guess is all I'm trying to say you have those that are striving for God -centeredness and Then you have those that willfully and joyfully it's it's apostasy in my opinion, you know, but it's that's a strong word

They are abandoning Not just church leadership polity. It's an abandonment of the authenticity of the gospel and authority of Scripture and so so God's cleaning up his church praise

God for that, but it is consequences of Loose polity and and and not following God's design.

Praise the Lord Thanks Club before you get started.

I just want to say Thank you. Everybody who's watching on they just left It doesn't tell me who it is, but there's somebody watching on my personal

Facebook page There was two people watching on the here. I stand theology podcast group page.

We're thankful for them. I shared it Yeah, the truth and love network page. So thank you guys for watching

So Claude you were gonna take us through the different models different perspectives So if we're talking about a church policy our

Polity, yes, sorry not policy polity. It's fancy word church government

Tyler I may need you to help me on this. I think there are probably three major forms of church polity

Episcopal Presbyterian and Congregational church policy polity would you would you agree with that Tyler?

I would think so. Yes. Okay, so I'm not going to explain Episcopal church polity we can keep it simple and just talk about congregational church polity and Presbyterian church policy polity so congregational polity of a church congregational government

According to Wikipedia is a system of ecclesiastical polity in which every local church or congregation is

Independent or ecclesiastically sovereign Okay, so they're basically meaning there's no there's no attachment to a larger association or group on the other hand in short

Presbyterian church government church polity Presbyterian church policy or polity is a method of church government governance typified by the rule of assemblies of Presbyters or elders which in one sense is probably very close to Episcopal church polity

Which means there's just like a hierarchy where the higher -ups Appoint and deem the lower down the pastors and so on and so forth but Presbyterian church polity and Congregate I think ideally and I think this is this is if I had to nail it down That's what

I this is what I would say that our church our church polity is at Reformata is it's a hybrid of both

Presbyterian church government governance and Congregational so some folks will make a very narrow description of Congregational church polity as a church that Does things?

Democratically right everything set to a vote you want to you want to change the carpet let's call a business meeting

Let's let's have the church decide right well if we want to get new hymnals if we want to do this this this and this that a

Congregational church polity pushed to its extreme is like a democratic

Church government the problem with that is that the the

Hierarchy that the Lord has set up, and I'm gonna call it a hierarchy is bishops or bishops or or pastors or elders presbyter

Ross Another there's a couple of other terms that are used interchangeably and then deacons so in reality

There are only two offices in the church. There's elders and deacons. I love what

Jonathan said earlier Out there not being you know if someone asked the members of vertical church

Who's the who's the lead pastor here? Well? They need to say Jesus, right? And I'm gonna do that I'm gonna do that like I do like I do a good meme

Jonathan, I'm gonna steal that Yeah, I'm gonna use that right, but But but that's the truth, but those those two

I think if we were to simplify it those two things those two forms of church polity are really what's on the table when we talk about church polity

Presbyterian church government and Congregational church government now when I think well, let's just make sure we're just we're not talking to nominationally

We're talking stylistically, okay, I don't know if that's what you think say I wasn't trying to yeah

So this we're not talking there is an Episcopal denomination the Episcopalians there is a

Presbyterian and there's a Baptist denomination Congregationalist congregations

So we're not a Denomination we're talking about a description, you know

So it is a biblical word just like we would say make it an apology when the English word.

We're Saying I'm sorry But apologia means we're making a defense.

We're actually we're debating for something in it So just because we say Presbyterian style versus congregation style.

We're not talking about the Presbyterian Church down the road It's a it's stylistically the leaders the the presbyters, you know, so So can

I reverse and I can I throw a before playing? You know, I'm gonna throw a reverse card down here

Rob and I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you so and I'd like to go around backwards here so What would you say?

Because we're this is this is just four dudes Talking over in sorting out the issues of the church online.

It's basically what we're doing right now So if you if Rob and then to Tyler and then to John Jonathan Rob, what would you say your church polity is at FBC Newton?

so our church polities would be Tell me if I'm wrong another way to form what you were saying

In case it does confuse people with denominational names and stuff so The way that we

I guess I will be most Familiar with the terms that I'm most familiar with would be elder elder led versus elder ruled yeah, because I Since you brought up Presbytery and Presbyterians, you know that denomination that you're not a

Methodist denomination Episcopal The other denominations they go

It doesn't stop at the local church, please I like the word that you'd use the ecclesiastical sovereignty

But they go yes, they go a little bit above that where they have people over Their local churches over several

Kind of unique and Different and those of us who grew up Baptist may not understand those that type of model

But we we would lean toward to answer your question. We would lean toward elder led

Slash congregation Yeah so Would you say hybrid?

Would you? Because it's a mixture because you when you read up on more so Tyler, what about you?

Well, I'm new to the church. So I'm still figuring this out. But from what I can tell so far They are probably the

Presbyterian elder led model with a plurality of elders Yep, and Matt you want to put

Matt's comment on the screen? So Matt's joining us from the hospital where he works

He's on his break Elder led congregationalism.

So again Elder led model is a form of Presbyterian church government and then congregationalism

What about you Jonathan? We get real specific in ours. We are elder ruled

With the with biblical exceptions and so we're elder ruled with the biblical exceptions

When it comes to for example church discipline And if we take Matthew 18 to its fullest extent you bring it to the church

So there's places in Scripture that it's very clear. The church was involved and and so Annually, you know, we vote on a budget, you know, we so so when

I say older ruled we're not militant at all, there's there's There's about four or five things that we would bring to the church for a church vote example, you know, we're praying about Are we supposed to be looking for a new facility or a longer -term facility for mission and ministry?

We're saturated where we're at Having a difficulty multiplying into the community and those kind of stuff.

And so we need better tools in our toolbox And so if if we're going to purchase something, it's a major purpose for those kind of things

A lot of times it is a vote but but let me let me give this So we are a hybrid as well

But it's more of an affirmation vote of affirmation We we so I can't say that we fit like an elder ruled model

Even though it is it is elder ruled when you really peel back the layers of it

It's not congregationalism because it's not a vote, but it's elder ruled congregation involvement

Right, so it's so if I could explain it real quick, I'll make it short. So like if we're going to appoint an elder

So the elders we take what Paul told Titus and Timothy go to Crete and appoint elders

You know, so there was no voting. There's no politics, but you know Appointment, but we also know that when we get into the qualifications of elders somebody's examining them

So, so where does the examination come in that they're blameless and other elders should be doing that but we also involve our congregation

So for example, if if a man aspires to be an elder and it's a good thing that he comes the elders

I said hey guys, I feel like God's called me to be an elder or the elders see that in somebody's life Say what's the qualification on your life?

Then we give an invitation for them to come in and be examined by the elders after they've been thoroughly examined

Then we put them before the church and we say little Johnny We see in him the gift and calling of being an elder

But there may be things about little Johnny that we don't know So we want to put a little Johnny in front of the church and for an entire month

We want you to be at little Johnny's house. We want you to What is it?

Yeah, we want you to be a little Johnny's house we want you to take a little Johnny out to coffee We want you to examine his doctrine.

We want you to ask him hard questions You've got a whole month that he and his family are going to make themselves available and our congregation is very respectful in that but yet They're they're going to they're going to do that at the end of that month in If there's been nothing with merit brought to the attention of the elders that would disqualify a little

Johnny from being an elder Then we said an ordination date and little Johnny will be appointed as an elder

So it's it's basically a vote of affirmation and an examination But we we personally avoid secret ballot votes of yes or no and And how we have to have

X amount of percentage in order for this person to be voted in and that kind of stuff So so we're elder ruled in that manner elders completely control the process

Therefore grace is applied mercy is applied doesn't turn into some kind of political arena

So we would say we're elder ruled with high congregational involvement If that would make sense, so yeah,

I think I think that would be an ideal Definition to put on the term hybrid polity

Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's a fantastic Example. All right,

Rob My reverse card has run out. So No, that was that was a really good time because we're running out of time and it was really good to get that in There and I really wish we had a little more time to help understand

Going past the more Baptistic model and understand why the

Presbyterian the Methodist have that Even greater hierarchical hierarchy model where they get that from from Scripture from tradition

You know where that comes from? I would just like to learn more about you know, why they do it that way

I guess to have more oversight, but as far as you know, biblically, yeah

Where they get that model? Just let's narrow it down to maybe two more of these questions because we're running out of time.

I want to get to maybe these ones that are Maybe a little more important for us to discuss

So I asked the question About the When we confuse what are the consequences when we confuse positions and their duties and qualifications?

So sometimes in the church, I'll just give you examples and you guys maybe can come up with more examples

But two examples when we when we confuse positions Sometimes you have a church where the the deacons will act like the elders

And then also when it comes to qualifications You have churches that will ordain for example women pastors

So what happens what what are some of the consequences that we we are seeing in our local churches when we

Positions and their qualifications So before Tyler answers this I'm gonna

I'm gonna drop a quote This is this is the quote grenade so Keith Bosky's meme is fantastic He said

Women who claim to be pastors aren't breaking glass ceilings.

They're breaking God's Commandments Yeah What do you land on that issue

I imagine a train track Because that that's a very technical piece of equipment

Some of us have probably seen those in our backyard But the idea of a train track is everything's measured at everything's laid out very specifically as long as it's

Made the way it's supposed to be you have a functioning train track that those wheels sit on the rails a very specific way

And as long as it those run those rails run parallel we have a functioning train track

But the issue comes with a lot of things When we try to cross those rails when we try to twist things and it becomes something that it's not and then we cease to have a functioning train track and I could apply that illustration to a myriad of things but in regards to Misconstruing the offices of the church and that realm

Words have meaning What things are has meaning our God is a

God of order So when he sets of the church our God does not cease to be a God of order so when he

Institutes the church when he gives us directions on how to this should be set up how this should operate how we should function how we should deal with the fallout of 500 sinners getting together in the same building every

Sunday There's order there is a purpose to how we do things. There's a purpose to how we rectify things and so when we misconstrue those things

We start reinventing things what ends up happening whether we are cognizant of it or not

Like the the deacons acting as elders question. I had the opportunity to hear

Paul Washer in person last December and he said that he had been asked what?

Improvement he would make on the American Church If he had the opportunity to sledgehammer the whole operation and start over and he said

I would elevate the office of deacons So much and drop the office of pastor so far

That you would have a paid full -time deacon because just about every pastor in America is really just a deacon.

Yeah and that's that's where we tend to Land oftentimes in American church culture is we we kind of blur those lines and so it's hard to identify from Scripture What those things are because we've got this this idea in our minds that isn't the train track

But our reference point is in the train track, I guess it's what I'm trying to say Well and what what your words just grew in my heart

I would like to express is this That God is the God of the means and God is the

God of the ends as well so if our if our ends is to be inclusive then we will ordain whoever we want to or If our ends is this then we will structure our polity in in this way, but if we if we position our ends according to the sovereignty of God and his what he wants then our means will reflect that and Boy what you just said

Tyler was spot -on and that's what that's what grew out of out of your words and in my mind

Just a reminder of that God is is the God of the means and the ends

What about you other guys thoughts on the consequences of confusion on? positions and qualifications

Whether what those consequences are Just real quickly. It leads to the abandonment of of God's design even for family

All the way down the line. So just just Tyler's illustration of a God is a God of order

Speaking of our conference coming up, by the way, you know, if you're not you're not paying attention and we are going to be having a

Laborers conference. I get the president speaking on family the authority of Christ in the family

I don't have permission to choose whether I'm going to be the dad of This family

I am I'm the father Now the choices

I'm going to make is how I father this family Am I going to follow this family according to my own ideas and my own ideals and what

I think and that's exactly what's happened in the world that that We have parents that have forgotten what it means to be a parent and they're trying to be best friends with their kids and so now we have a mess in the generations that we have

I need to be the the parent that that I want to be that makes me feel good to Be happy where I can be the parent that God has

Decided to be and qualified me to be and give me instruction on how to be a parent Yeah, and so so I'm the leader of my home the head of my home.

I'm the high priest of my home I'm gonna be the discipler of my wife and the disciple of my children, you know

I'm gonna keep the peace of my home. I mean like so So before I even consider being an elder

I have to one that rules this household. Well first That's a big qualification and so so when we started thinking about that then if my wife is the pastor

Is the pastor of the church? I mean in the leader in the church What do we what would me and my wife do we just swap roles in the car like on the way to Sunday morning?

You know, it's like Swap roles and like okay, babe, you know, you're gonna get up and preach and I'm gonna submit to you

You know when you get back in the car, then then then I'm gonna be back in the head, you know and that kind of stuff and so And we laugh but that's exactly what it is

I mean we we again we just the world has said all I'm gonna do what feels good to me or what

I think I should do forget what God says I can do it better and And we can't so so I'm just saying there there's a lot of consequences down from that and it's not oppression

It's actually Liberating just like we was talking about last week We need to remember God's laws and God's design is not for the sake of oppression

It's for the sake of flourishing. God is design Leadership for the flourishing of his church he's this odd family polity for the leadership and the flourishing of the family and all the way down so so again where you keep talking about consequences and Churches that abandon this they're dying

They're dying. They're they're abandoning the gospel and the mission of the gospel and their mission has become people -pleasing

Hirelings rather than missional soldiers for Christ and and it's

It's that so yeah to bring it back full circle to to to move to the close here

Rob What what Jonathan said what Jonathan said at the beginning? I think we talked about the consequence we have the the reality and the serious nature of the consequence that you know

The Lord is able to remove but his lampstand because it's his lampstand. Anyway, it's his church

He can do with it what he wants to do, but I think a another very real practical truth is that When we try to do it any other way than the the way that the

Lord has set out in the scriptures We find ourselves in a position of burnout and there's some churches where?

It's not necessarily It's not necessarily that the the

Lord has removed the lampstand but that the the the preacher trying to do things all

Himself is burning as the old saying goes the candle at both ends and the candles are not

Right not meant to do that you burn from burn from one end as a matter of fact

We don't even if we go back to the practical the old style light, right?

It wasn't a wick in wax It was oil in the lamp

The end was lit and it drew its strength from the oil So, you know again also the practical reality is that a lot of pastors trying to do it on their own?

Shoulder the load of everything of being of being a quote -unquote Pastor taking care of the finances doing everything and running about here and there

It it's just not it's not it's not realistic and and and the

Lord knows that and if we would just remind ourselves and even when we're forced to remind ourselves like, you know, like Job and to consider that We're not anything

The Lord the Lord said where were you when I made made the heavens in the earth, right? How did you assist me in this what did you do again?

Can you remind me because it's it's not so so again, that's a that's a very true thing

Let me questions are you're like we do need to realize in I Was raised

Southern Baptist, for example, I never I never heard anybody even talk about elders

When were I raised but it was a deacon run church, it's the deacon boy, you know

Yeah, so then you ask who's deep who's deaconing he goes back to what Tyler said It's the pastor who has become a hireling and they don't want nothing the church at that point in time

They want anything more than a chaplain Looking for a leader not looking for a visionary not looking for an expositor of the word.

They're looking for a chaplain That's gonna you know Visit the stick and go to the hospitals and go to the nursing homes and you know and that's that's your job and if you're not doing that then you're not a good pastor and And so again it it has done much damage to me

God that I believe had a had a heart to shepherd and pastor people But it led them to not be nothing more than hirelings and in that that creates a bad scenario and And then you get men that are supposed to be

Supposed to be serving and they're lording Over people that that becomes a major problem

And then the final thing I'll say is we've not got into this deeply tonight The one danger that I see

To I want to throw this out there not to open up a whole nother conversation I think it's very important that we put this out there one danger that I see with congregationalism

That means the congregants nominate Members from the congregation rather than elders or leaders appointing or recommending.

So then so congregants Nominate and congregants elect and empower and so not always

But a lot of times what we find in in a very pure what we might consider pure Congregationalism if we do find this political arena

That that they're looking at their secular abilities versus their

Godly qualifications, so not every businessman that is a good businessman

Should be on the finance and stewardship team of the church Because he may have got his business means by very ungodly action, you know

There's there's a lot of money then they should be on the finance thing just because somebody's a great football coach and a great leader

You know, and so So that's that's why I want to say on the positive side of whatever form of eldering eldership

That that we'd be proponents of because it sounds like all of us would be in that realm You know, we've got and I think there is a level of autonomy and room for every local body to work that out but I think we'd all agree to to to elders as Overseers and shepherds of the body and the level authority each local church can figure that out.

But at the end of the day There is a stricter judgment for those that are called to be teachers. There is a stricter judgment there we better take this job seriously and And as the church empowers elders or submits themselves to elders, whichever term that comes to Then it should be done in such a way that the others can do it with joy

Because as the elders do it with joy Then there's great benefit to the congregation and so So I just want to say there's positive to this.

Does that make sense? I mean, I don't want to we've talked a lot about consequences tonight and there's great consequences from the abandonment of it

I think the flip side is we can say man, there's tremendous blessing freedom flourishing when we submit to God's design in this.

So I just hope we say that well tonight You know that and and I would encourage any pastor any congregation.

It's a slow work If your church's DNA is is hyper congregationalism.

It is a slow work Don't go in there If you hear this podcast don't go in there and start throwing rocks at Every person in there and tell them how out of the will of God they are we would say yes

That's right, remember you ain't Jesus So we're not saying flip over tables this this is a process it is the journey

It is I'm very fortunate to be a church planter. I get to I get to plant those seeds and DNA from day one but but if you're in that Congregationalism and you know that you need to move toward elder led or whatever that that kind of format to appoint elders

And let it be a slow teaching process, you know, don't dilly -dally and avoid conflict in it, but but definitely begin the process of journeying toward that and Figuring out what that looks like and take the time to teach the

Word of God And so any pastor that's listening don't be afraid But then there's a lot of good men of God that have been fired over this specific issue and praise

God for it Don't back up, you know stand on the Word of God and he'll honor you honor the

Lord and he'll honor you So just want to challenge our pastor buddies out there to you. Thanks guys Amen, amen to that.

Yeah As somebody who's been at odds with the power group in a congregational church.

I I'm with you 100 % Well, I'm not gonna ask you guys the last question

There's there's a couple more and I'm not gonna ask you guys specifically the last question I want to ask the last question to those who will be listening and watching and Maybe we have an online discussion and if you do want to have online discussion

Go to the truth and love Network Facebook page If you happen to be watching on YouTube or one of the other chat groups go to the truth and love

Network Facebook group or a Facebook page have the discussion there, but the last question we've talked about and I have one more question for you guys and then

Claude wants to end us with with a Story An example, excuse me so the question is

We've talked about how I think a lot of people are being awakened to the plurality of elder model plurality of model a lot of people are

Being awakened to that and but yet there are still so many single pastor models where Correct diagnosis.

They're not really pastoring. They're deaconing and the deacons are being the pastors. They're ruling and leading the church

But so many still have that single pastor model. So as we're being awakened to the the biblical

Model of church government that there should be a plurality of elders and a plurality of deacons Where on the scale do you find yourself with this single pastor model?

Is it still okay? Is it just you know, do we just let it go or is it on the other end where it's a sinful matter?

Where do you find yourself in that balance so have that conversation let us know what you think

But I you know I think Jonathan was pastorally taking us in the right direction if you become awakened to to this biblical model of plurality of elders, you know

Go at it You know Be be kind and be gracious.

We all are awakened Holy Spirit grows us in in different speeds and at different times

So be gracious and merciful with one another as we learn and grow together So the pastor

Jonathan Pastorally as he does every podcast leads in the right direction.

He was taking us where I wanted us to go. So so Tyler Jonathan you've already you've already answered this question a little bit

Claude. I Know we've talked about consequences But I also know that we can't be

Prosperity gospel preachers and say if you take on this model of polity then God will bless your church

Give you this we can't say that But there are some blessings To being obedient to God in his word so encourage folks with how you think it will be a blessing to your church if they

Submit to Christ and his model of church government and then Claude give us your example of an elder

Oh Was you asking them to answer the question first Yeah, answer the question first How would your how a church will be blessed if they take on this model this biblical model submit to Christ in church polity?

We can't make promises, but we know that in some ways we will be blessed And after after that you guys talk about encouragement.

I'll give you an example. How are you and Jonathan go? Well, I think first and foremost the the the blessing if I could use that terminology to this model of biblical

I mean, I mean of church government is it would draw us closer to Christ. It would paint for us a picture of submission to Christ That ultimately this is in a sense preaching the gospel to us.

This idea is submitting to the Lordship of Christ and So when we talk about the the benefits of this this model

We're ultimately trying to be further in step with the things of God Yeah to be further conformed to the image and likeness of Christ as it says in Romans 8 though he who foreknew he also

Predestined to what to be conformed to the image of his son. That is that is the end goal. That is where we're going There's no question about that.

And so when we approach Structuring the church a specific way that is our goal is to be conformed to the image of Christ How do we as the pastors the leaders of the church?

How can we be conformed to Christ? In the way that we lead the church. He's been gracious to give us.

How do we as the lay people? How do we relate to that leadership in a way that we are being conformed to the image of Christ?

There was a one of the church fathers a Bishop Ambrose he took he had

Received a letter asking him to explain the book of Ephesians from another bishop

I believe and he went to Genesis and he tied Ephesians and the picture of the church to Genesis 2 this is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh

Now that is that is the end goal that we would be further united with Christ And I yield my time

So not correctionally, but I'm gonna take Robert to task on what he said, okay Just kidding

Rob smile, buddy Okay No, I understand exactly what he's saying We're not gonna promise you that if you if you move to elder led you're gonna immediately run a thousand members in your church

And you're gonna be millionaires. You have millions of dollars in the bank and that kind of stuff What what I will say though is

Is I do promise where I would not disagree but just correct the phraseology in my heart is

I Am absolutely convinced that if you have biblical qualified elders shepherding your congregation, you will absolutely be blessed

Absolutely. God has to bless that that's his design. So I know what Robert's doing. I really meant that just to pick it on you, buddy

I know it is I know it is and that's why I just pick it on that's right. So That that's that's why it's absolutely essential and and So the so there is blessing there is flourishing.

I use that word a second ago because godly elders That are that have the heart of God that shepherded with the heart of Christ Are going to shepherd people and care for people and they're going to teach people the whole counsel of the

Word of God And what what more important thing could we have in in a congregation in a local fellowship?

And then they're going to teach their congregation to multiply That same heart. So that's the first thing.

It is a principle of multiplication The second thing is the principle of shepherding. We haven't talked about that a whole lot tonight

But but but elders are the role of shepherding the flock of God, you know, and that's that's absolutely essential

Um, and and that is a blessing to the flock It's not a group of guys Sitting around smoking cigars in a room making decisions and you know, whoop the sheep to go get it

The bible says remember those who labor among you Who labor among you so we are decision makers

Uh, but we're not going to tell a guy how to dig a ditch instead of where their arms crossed We're going to say hey, let us let it

Be an imitator of me as I imitate christ i'm gonna get here and dig the ditch now I'm expecting you get on here with me.

Come on. Let's go, you know Eventually i'm gonna hand my shovel to somebody else so I can get over in the other ditch and start digging that one, you know and we'll we'll multiply out but You know, it's it's it's someone to look up to It is something that's very important.

It's a blessing and that that we should have elders To look up to and then the final thing i'll say personally where i've been a recipient

And so blessed by the model that we have two years ago After 10 years of church planting planting multiple churches multiple missions

Stretching myself thin running like a wild man all over the world And and pastoring local congregation.

I was exhausted. I was I I had just just run myself ragged Um, I was not doing a good job taking care of myself and rest and even spiritually

And you know, I raised my hand I raised my fist as you would in somebody doing basketball games now or whatever

And I just go to my elders the guys i'm exhausted And I need to submit myself to you. I am tired and and I need a break

And and I am a paid staff person at our local church there So so the elders we prayed about it together come back.

They said look pastor We want you to take six weeks of sabbatical take six weeks And let us shepherd you through that they gave me instructions.

They gave me books to read They gave me expectations of that time. It wasn't me just laying back with my feet kicked up You know, but we together made a plan of what spiritual renewal would look like So you think okay the lead the lead pastor the this is jesus at our church

But the guy that preaches all the time, he's going to be gone for six weeks What's going to happen to the church? Oh, it's going to plummet.

We know it's going to just You know dive bob dive bottom down we grew 20 percent

In the season while I was gone It didn't decline at all We grew

Nobody missed me. Well, they did but thankfully i'm glad they did but It was as if it was as if Things stopped the church didn't die.

It didn't implode And these single pastor models it's so dangerous because that pastor dies in a car wreck then what?

That's right. And so i'm I praise the lord for faithful men of god that I get to shepherd our congregation with That we co -labor together we're we are we are plurality of elders that we we get to lead this flock and I'm, so at peace that If the lord takes me home tonight

And this means a lot that if the lord takes me home tonight My church family is going to be just fine

Because they're in the hands of godly men who love them we're going to continue to shepherd them who are going to stand and preach the whole council of the word of god and And the mission will go on it's not built on jonathan foster and I and I praise the lord for that There was a time in my life

I wouldn't have said that because I wanted all about me and any young pastor that hasn't said that they're liars, right? but But but in my old age

I praise god that Would be missed but It will go on and god's god's glory will be be glorified.

So so to me that's That's the positive blessing side of it of of just Empowering the men of god to do what god's calling to do

Anyways, I could talk a long time if you can't tell i'm very passionate about this tonight. So i'm sorry if i'm monopolizing a lot of I've just seen the blessing of godly leadership and it's just It's wonderful and i've been on the consequences of terrible biblical leadership and it's horrible

So I just plead with you read the scripture and align yourself with that. It's so worth it

Amen, thank you for your words and thank you for your clarity that I needed. I appreciate it Claude Yes, because it's it's not

My words, but it's the word of god, which will always always and ever be beneficial to us

The biblical example of the role of the elder is this Acts chapter 20 verse 17 from maletus.

He sent to ephesus and called for the elders of the church. This is paul And when they had come to him, he said to them

You know from the first day that I came to asia in what manner I always lived among you

Serving the lord with humility and many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the jews

How I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed to you and taught you publicly and from house to house

Testifying to jews and also to greeks repentance toward god in faith toward our lord jesus christ

And see now I go bound in the spirit to jerusalem Not knowing the things that will happen to me there except That the holy spirit testifies in every city saying that chains and tribulations await me

But none of these things move me Nor do I count my life dear to myself so that I may finish my race with joy

And the ministry which I received from the lord jesus to testify to the gospel of the grace of god

And indeed now I know that you all among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of god will see my face no more

Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent from the blood of all men For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of god

Therefore take heed to yourselves and he's speaking to the elders take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among Whom the holy spirit has made you overseer overseers to shepherd the church of god

Which he purchased with his own blood For I know this that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you not sparing the flock

Also from among yourselves men will rise up speaking perverse things to draw away

Disciples after themselves therefore watch and remember that for three years

I cease not to warn everyone night and day with tears So now brethren, I command you

I commend you to god and to the word of his grace Which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those that are sanctified

Amen Praise that's all i've got to say Amen Tyler as we as we end would you brothers share the gospel with us and claude will you close us in prayer?

of course so we've been talking about The the leadership structure the the people that quote have the rule

And we can't acknowledge any of that without being cognizant of the fact that god rules that god has the rule that there is a god in heaven that he is

Our king. He is our lawgiver that is Who we are bound to? By the fact that he made us

He made adam And from adam he made us And the tragedy in that is that while we were made by god while his the fact that his

Creatorship is obvious to us. We've Looked the other way that we have in our own ways in our own devices may be different for some people

We have acted as if he did not exist Yeah, it says in romans that though they knew god they did not honor him as god

And it goes on to say or give thanks to him that one of the great Consequences of our denial of god is the inability to say.

Thank you. It's the inability to be great to have gratitude For the god who made us and in whom our existence is tied

And so we have gone our own way. We have very much tried to divorce ourselves Um existentially from the god who made us

And god did not leave us that way This is not where the story ends, that's right, but scripture says that the word of god became flesh

That the word by which the world was made in the beginning was the word the word was with god And the word was god.

He was with god in the beginning and through him All things were made and nothing that has been made apart from him was made

And it goes on to say that the word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory

And this is the we call him jesus He is the son of god. He is from the father and he lived that perfect life that you and I could never live

And he lived among us 33 perfect years kept the whole law of god to the letter

Very much was the kind of person you and I could never be the kind of person you and I will never be That's right.

So he lives this perfect life And he goes to a cross and he dies Not because of any wrong that he did not because he'd sin not because he'd broken the law of god

But he was rendered as a lawbreaker To the same creator by which

We are estranged to his own father He was rendered as stricken and it's and the bible says that he um

Bore our sins in his body. Yes Why that we might die to sin?

that we might die to that sin that Um estranged us from our creator and what and live to righteousness

Yes, and so christ dies Three days later he rises triumphantly from the grave because he was god.

He wasn't just a person This is the final proof that he was god that he was who he said he was

And that he had the final power over death and sin itself And he ascends back into heaven wherefore he shall um sit as judge

In the meantime, he has called all people to repent to turn from our sins and turn to the face of christ

Who has done all the work necessary to bring us back to himself that christ may be all in all

And today we at the truth and love network implore you to be reconciled to christ to seek the lord while he may be found

To call upon the name of christ and be saved by his rich plenteous mercy.

Amen Yes Amen. Amen And i'll close with in prayer by Reading psalm 100 make a joyful shout to the lord all you lands

Serve the lord with gladness come before his presence with singing and know that the lord

Yahweh He is god it is he who made us and not we ourselves

We are his people and the sheep of his pasture Enter into his gates with thanksgiving and into his courts with praise

Be thankful to him and bless his name for the lord is good His mercy is everlasting

And his truth endures to all generations Amen Amen I appreciate

And I love you brothers And we appreciate you and we love you and thank you for watching the laborers podcast.

We hope to see you real soon Thank you for joining the laborers podcast

Remember jesus is king live in the victory of christ Speak with the authority of christ and go share the gospel of christ