The Gospel of Thomas (1-39), Abortion Zealots, and the Ligonier Christology Statement

And greetings. Welcome to the dividing line on uh. It's it's sometime in uh march. Yeah uh i think it's tuesday. And i uh a couple of uh uh i don't know sometime last week i think i went running with uh my wife after dark.

And i wear this headlamp thingy and it's really bright. And the technology they've come up with those things just incredible the past number of years. But what it did is it shows me what i'm breathing in uh while running or biking.

And right now in arizona that's bad. You get you get shots and stuff. Don't you. For um yeah um eight years. Fuck uh just the air is you could slice it. I mean it's just filled with you know you get you come out in the morning your car is covered in dust and pollen and all this kind of stuff.

And wow. Um and it's finally caught up to me every spring every spring uh this happens to where you know uh and i've been tested for like a valley fever and all this type of stuff. But it's just sort of a i just call it my springtime asthma stuff.

It makes me sound like i i um smoke three packs a day especially after riding 50 miles or something like that my.

My allergist diagnosed me that i am allergic to the southwestern portion of the united states of.

America that's what he said. Um by the way um pretty pretty impressed what i did before coming in today i was working. I missed it. What how could you have missed the uh i mean the babylon b which by the way babylon b has been shown to have a higher truth content than breitbart news oh oh uh but uh yes the babylon b this morning reporting on my uh my circumnavigation of the globe in less than four hours which um that's uh that let me tell you something wind's going by that fast your your your every it flaps and oh it's it's bad anyway um that that would be nice say three hours 54 minutes that would take that would give me really a meaningfully about uh depending on whether i'm climbing or just what you know somewhere around 78 miles maybe 75 78 not including stops and things like that so not quite 24 000 something but i am on my fifth time the planet though uh but that's that's lifetime.

So anyway uh if uh if you hear if i have to stop and cough and stuff like that i feel fine feel great. It's just this stuff uh that will be bothering me till sometime in may when it gets hot enough that for some reason it stops.

I don't know why it is but it's the infirmities of the flesh shall we say. Anyway i have some books piled up over here and normally i don't have a bunch of books piled up over here but uh here for example is a book by mark goodacre thomas and the gospels the case for thomas's familiarity with the synoptic gospels and then um another book fairly recent simon gather calls the composition of the gospel of thomas and i likewise have here a volume many things like volume two i think there's i think there's five volumes um in this set that i have called the gnostic library complete edition of the nag Hammadi codices and i'm very thankful to have this i'll be reading from this today on the gospel of thomas and then just it's not directly relevant to thomas but there are a lot of people finding this rather interesting.

Uh you might find this book that came out i think last year um but did it did it did it yeah uh last year baylor university press uh christian oxyrhynchus text documents and sources by blumwell and wayment um it is good to have particular resources available especially when you're dealing with the utilization of these sources by the enemies of the faith and stuff like that.

So i'm not you know there's probably no reason for most christians that have the coptic gnostic library uh laying around but um it will be useful for us uh for the reason that i want to read today the gospel of thomas now i if i have time if i can remember to do so i'll um see actually maybe someone in the listening audience could do this for me um i forget what year it was it was sometime either late 90s or early part of this century.

I wrote an article for the cri journal on the gospel of thomas its background stuff like that just sort of introductory thing it wasn't overly in depth just um you know familiarizing people with it and i would assume um that that's available now uh online because i know my whatever happened i see a uh thing is um is available so maybe that is too maybe someone can pull that up and uh let me know and at least uh i can i can throw it into the um link it to the uh blog our entry for this but the materials we've read to this point in um story time with grandpa jimmy uh as people have come to view it uh we we read the protevangelium of james and yeah there's some weird stuff in it and you can you can sort of hear the echoes of gnostic sources um by the way i i did see uh young messiah over the weekend i wrote wrote up a real just that night wrote up a real quick review of it and um i think some people were upset with me that i didn't just rip his lips off um but it was obvious that they attempted to de-gnosticize it.

Um you you can't you just can't be 100 successful when the sources that you're sort of basing stuff on were gnostic in the first place. But the attempt was made. It wasn't nearly as bad as i thought it was going to be because of the uh the trailer where jesus is opening his hand and the bird flies out i figured that was the beginning story from the infancy gospel thomas that we read last time it wasn't.

Jesus had found a dead bird and then brought back to life. And and uh the jesus of this movie was not the jesus of the infancy gospel thomas striking people dead. There was an instance where a playmate dies.

Well it wasn't really a playmate it was somebody who's it was a bully beating him up. But it was due to lucifer uh satan not due to jesus. And satan all of a sudden had a real major role in this particular film.

And you know it was all speculation as what you'd expect but it wasn't nearly as bad as i expected it to be. Uh you know i'm still uncomfortable with the whole idea of digging into things that you don't really need to be digging into.

But it like i said it wasn't as bad as i thought it was at all as soon as i said everybody go what do you think about risen. I haven't seen risen. I'm not i don't i don't even as it was um sitting there for that long in a theater was you know tough for me anyway.

Um but up till now what we have read yeah had all sorts of you know gnostic elements the gospel of thomas is going to leave you scratching your head many times as to what in the world this is talking about.

Um the reality is i i remember i forget which debate it was. It may have it may have been 2000. It may have been the first debate with shabir um where he actually said that the gospel of thomas uh goes back to the first century.

And i was like yeah um the the form of gnosticism that it promotes is is mid-second century. It's that's really its origination and the only thing in the gospel of thomas so it goes back to the first century is its reliance upon uh the synoptic gospels and john um that's the only only thing goes back to the first century.

But the problem is there have been a billion books written um if you want to get published this is a good way to get published. Uh right on the gospel of thomas. Uh you know getting published doing dissertations and stuff you've got to find something that's new which in christianity normally means heretical as well and uh so it's extremely popular has been for decades to promote the gospel of thomas to write about the gospel of thomas and you gotta come up with something new.

So there's all sorts of people who have a vested interest in trying to make thomas something other than what it is which is a second century gnostic text that plainly is utterly disconnected from um jerusalem galilee jesus the disciples of jesus the christian faith and everything else.

Um it's just way way way out there and it clearly comes from really no earlier than 140 and probably a little bit after that as far as dating it is is concerned. Now it'll make a little more sense to you if you will sort of have the general idea of what gnosticism is all about and it's really good in reading almost anything in the patristic the apologists the the other you know very early church fathers to know something about gnosticism because they're all writing against it they considered it a great uh danger to the church.

So if you just know a few terms dualism the idea that the spiritual realm is good and the physical realm is evil hence salvation is the freeing of the good human spirit which is a spark of the divine from its entrapment.

It's a natural entrapment in the physical body and hence the idea of foolishness to the greeks um act 17 as soon as jesus as paul says resurrection they they start mocking. Um as a result you had some development of the concept of docetism from the greek term which means it seems so the idea that jesus only seemed to have a physical body because if he was really a good person representing the good god rather than the evil god which would be jehovah of the old testament because um the true god could never have created the physical realm because the physical realm has fallen.

So there had to be these these eons these um semi-divine beings that descend down from the true god. Um and so so they remain they remain divine and powerful. But they're a little bit farther down each time these are these are called eons all of them taken together called the play roma the fullness.

And jesus then being a representative of the good spiritual god up at the top um couldn't have a physical body. So he only seemed to have a physical body. So you have docetism. It only seems he had a physical body.

So you know jesus and the disciple walking along the seashore and the disciple looks back and there's only one set of footprints. It's not like the silly poem on the wall in the bathroom at church that says why were why did you leave me at those times.

That's not. I didn't leave you then i was carrying you. Uh not that not that story. The idea that jesus doesn't leave footprints in the sand because he only seems to have a physical body he doesn't have a physical body.

So if if you recognize that the idea is that salvation comes to you by um being by having that divine spark freed from the physical body and and that spark goes back and becomes one with the divine energy um oneness.

The idea of becoming one with it's not really um one with the universe. But narcissism did come from the east. So there is a similar background as far as uh some of that goes. If you keep some of that in mind this will make more sense to you.

There are only 114. Um. Ah thank you brian. Um i will. It is at equip .org uh and and mitchell sorry about that. Two of you posted that um i will grab those links later on and put them uh with the uh with the article 114 segments.

This is not a gospel in the sense that this is just a sayings collection. A lot of people have pointed out that it's sort of similar to q but of course you never found q. There's no evidence of q's literary existence.

So um but a sayings collection there really isn't any progression to it not necessarily any meaningful connection between one segment and next segment. It's just the way it is. Um so here we go. Um this is uh thomas lambdons uh translation of the gospel according to thomas this is in the coptic gnostic library volume two beginning on page 53.

These are the secret sayings which the living jesus spoke in which didymus judas thomas wrote down. And he said whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death. Jesus said let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds.

When he finds he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled he will be astonished and he will rule over the all. By the way if you're expecting me to explain half of these be a long program and i'm not sure that i could.

Jesus said if those who lead you say to you see the kingdom is in the sky then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you it is in the sea then the fish will precede you. Rather the kingdom is inside of you and it is outside of you.

When you come to know yourselves then you will become known and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty.

Jesus said the man in old days i'm sorry the man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life and he will live for many who are first will become last and they will become one and the same.

I just stopped there for a moment. You might want to take note of how many times very clearly the writer collector is drawing from what is plainly canonical scripture in the gospels and then making changes.

And remember there's actually a you can sort of sense a subtext going on in here an anti-orthodox anti-christian church subtext. Because the gnostics viewed the church as well they were opposed to that church.

So there you go. Um we are now at number five. Jesus said recognize what is your sight and that which is hidden from you become plain to you for there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest.

His disciples questioned him and said to him do you want us to fast. How shall we pray. Shall we give alms. What diet shall we observe. And this is one of the verses where people sense a anti-orthodox diatribe.

Jesus said do not tell lies and do not do what you hate. For all things are plain the sight of heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered.

Jesus said blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man and curses the man whom the lion consumes and the lion becomes man. And he said the man is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish.

Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear let him hear. By the way i was always very afraid that harold camping would discover the gospel thomas because what he could have done with this.

Wow anyway. Number nine. Jesus said now the sower went out took a handful of seeds and scattered them. Some fell on the road. The birds came and gathered them up. Others fell on the rock did not take root in the soil and did not produce ears.

And others fell on thorns. They choked the seeds and worms ate them and others fell in the good soil and produced good fruit. It bore 60 per measure and 120 per measure. It's very plainly a somewhat altered version of a canonical story.

Jesus said i have cast fire upon the world and see i am guarding it until it blazes. Number 11. Jesus said this heaven will pass away and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive and the living will not die.

In the days when you consumed what is dead you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light what will you do on the day when you were one you became two. And when you became two i'm sorry.

And when you become two what will you do. Almost sounds like the translation was trying to rhyme that. But anyway the disciples said to jesus we know that you will depart from us who is to be our leader.

Jesus said to them wherever you are you are to go to james the righteous for whose sake heaven and earth came into being. Jesus said that can you imagine. If that said peter uh this would be one of the most favorite texts in all of of rome.

Jesus said to his disciples compare me to someone and tell me whom i am like simon. Peter said to him you're like a righteous angel. Matthew said to him you're like a wise philosopher. Thomas said to him master my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like jesus said i am not your master because you have drunk.

You have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which i have measured out. And he took him and withdrew and told him three things. When thomas returned to his companions they asked him what did you say to you.

Thomas said to them if i tell you one of the things which he told me you will pick up stones and throw them at me. A fire will come out of the stones and burn you up. Remember the whole essence of gnosticism is secret knowledge.

So this is jesus giving secret knowledge. And there you go. Number 14. Jesus said to them if you fast you will give rise to sin for yourselves. And if you pray you'll be condemned. If you give alms you will do harm to your spirits.

When you go into any land and walk about in the streets. If they receive you eat what they will set before you and heal the sick among them. For what goes into your mouth will not defile you. But that which issues from your mouth it is that which will defile you.

Jesus said when you see one who was not born a woman prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father. Jesus said men think perhaps that it is peace which i have come to cast upon the world.

They do not know that it is dissension which i have come to cast upon the earth. Fire sword and war. For there will be five in a house there three will be against two and two against three. The father against the son the son against the father.

And they will stand solitary. Jesus said i shall give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never occurred to the human mind. The disciples said to jesus tell us how our end will be.

Jesus said have you discovered then the beginning. That you look for the end. For where the beginning is there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning. He will know the end and will not experience death.

Jesus said blessed is he who came into being before he came into being. You know it's not even easy to read this. I i mean it it. There's the the since the thought doesn't flow the words don't flow either.

Jesus said blessed is he who came into being before he came into being. If you become my disciples listen my words. These stones will minister to you. For there are five trees for you in paradise which remain undisturbed summer and winter and whose leaves do not fall.

Whoever becomes acquainted with them will not experience death. The disciples said to jesus tell us what the kingdom of heaven is. Like he said to them it is like a mustard seed. It is the smallest of all seeds.

But when it falls on tilled soil it produces a great plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky. Mary said to jesus whom are your disciples. Like he said they are like children who have settled in the field which is not theirs.

When the owners of the field come they will say let us have back our field. They will undress in their presence in order to let them have back their field and to give it back to them. Therefore i say if the owner of a house knows that the thief is coming he will begin his vigil before he comes and will not let him dig through dig through into his house of his domain to carry away his goods.

You then be on your guard against the world. Arm yourselves with great strength lest the robbers find a way to come to you for the difficulty which you expect will surely materialize. Let there be among you a man of understanding.

When the grain ripened he came quickly with his sickle in his hand and reaped it. Whoever has ears to hear let him hear. Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples these infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom.

They said to him shall we then as children enter the kingdom jesus said to them when you make the two one and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside and the above like the below and when you make the male and the female one in the same so that the male so that the male not be male nor the female female and you fashion eyes in place of an eye and a hand in place of a hand and a foot in place of a foot and a likeness in place for likeness, then will you enter the kingdom?

Then will you? Well, I don't know about you, but this doesn't preach very well, just in case you noticed. It wasn't meant to. It's Gnosticism. That's the whole idea. You don't want regular people to be able to understand this.

There is a gross spiritual arrogance to Gnosticism. It's only for the elite few. It's totally against the idea of a gospel that goes out to all people and anything like that. No, it's only for people who get to go through the right ceremonies and learn all the right key words.

Men staring at their belly buttons all day long? I don't have my earphone in, so I don't have any idea what you're saying. Okay, thank you. Jesus said, I shall choose you one out of a thousand and two out of ten thousand and they shall stand as a single one.

So, see, there you have a small number of people who are smart enough to understand Gnosis and they shall stand as a single one. So, the differences between them are wiped out when they absorbed into the one.

His disciples said, show us the place where you are since it is necessary for us to seek it. He said to them, whoever has ears, let him hear. There is light within a man of light and he lights up the whole world.

If he does not shine, he is darkness. So, you've got this spark within you. See, Jesus said, love your brother like your soul. Guard him like the pupil of your eye. Jesus said, you see the moat in your brother's eye, but you do not see the beam in your own eye.

When you cast the beam out of your own eye, then you'll see clearly cast the moat from your brother's eye, which is almost direct quotation. Jesus said, if you're not fast as regards the world, you will not find the kingdom.

If you do not observe the Sabbath as a Sabbath, you will not see the Father. Jesus said, I took my place in amidst the world and I appeared to them in flesh. I found all of them intoxicated. I found none of them thirsty and my soul became afflicted for the sons of men because they are blind in their hearts and do not have sight.

For empty they came into the world and empty too they seek to leave the world, but for the moment they are intoxicated. When they shake off their wine, then they will repent. Jesus said, if the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder.

But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty. Jesus said, where there are three gods, they are gods.

Where there are two or one, I am with them. Jesus said, no prophet is accepted in his own village. No physician heals those who know him. Jesus said, a city being built on a high mountain and fortified cannot fall, nor can it be hidden.

Jesus said, preach from your housetops that which you will hear in your ear. For no one lights a lamp and puts it under a bushel, nor is he put in a hidden place. Rather, he sets it on a lampstand so that everyone who enters and leaves will see his light.

Jesus said, if a blind man leads a blind man, they will both fall into a pit. Jesus said, it is not possible for anyone to enter the house of a strong man and take it by force unless he binds his hands.

Then he will be able to ransack his house. Jesus said, do not be concerned from morning until evening and from evening until morning about what you will wear. Jesus said, when will you become revealed?

I'm sorry. His disciples said, when will you become revealed to us and when shall we see you? Jesus said, when you disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments and place them under your feet like little children and tread on them, then you will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid.

I didn't write it. I just read it. Jesus said, many times have you desired to hear these words which I am saying to you and you have no one else to hear them from. There will be days when you will look for me and will not find me.

Jesus said, the Pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

I think what I'll do is I will make a mark there. I've got my handy dandy post-it tape flags. I will make a mark there and we will pick up with number 40 because I do not want to... I'm a little concerned that some of you might be driving and that we would get sued because you fall asleep at the wheel and get into an accident or something and I don't want to do that.

So we read the first 39 verses and I needed that. All right, before we move on to the next segment, I just want to play a video. I am sending it to you. Do you have it? This will allow me to stop talking for four minutes and 38 seconds, I think.

I reposted this on Facebook and posted it on Twitter because I don't even know what to say. The level of self-deception, especially, you know, we live in a day where we have more knowledge and more understanding of the humanity of the unborn child.

Yes, well, now I am, than ever before. And so what you're about to hear, I am probably not the best person to respond to it because I know that I struggle mightily to show patience with people who clearly don't think, who just simply follow the party line.

There's no reflection. There's no thought. I really, really, really have problems with people like that. And you're about to run into a bunch of them, about to run into a bunch of them. And so a lot of people responded to this on Twitter, especially, with just outrage.

And there's reason for that. Here's a video. Let's just, you ready? All right.

Hi, everybody. I'm Dan Joseph with MRCTV. And once again, an abortion case has reached the Supreme Court. As always, there are plenty of protesters here. And so I'm going to talk to some of these activists and find out whether they think there is any time during a pregnancy in which it should be illegal for a woman to have an abortion.

So tell us a little bit about your costume. What are you? I am a uterus. You're a uterus. Okay. At what point in a pregnancy do you think it should be illegal for someone to have an abortion? I don't think that's my question to answer.

And I'm not pregnant. At what point do you think it should be illegal for a woman to have an abortion? That's not up to me. It's up to medical professionals.

Women, for any reason, under any circumstances, have the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. This is an absolutely positive moral choice. So at any time during the pregnancy? Absolutely. Up till the moment of birth.

Fetuses are not babies. At what point do you think it should.

Be illegal for a woman to terminate a pregnancy? I think, you know, nobody knows what it's like to step in a woman's shoes except her. So at what point would you say, legally speaking, it should be illegal?

I'm going to listen to the medical professionals. Thank you very much. You.

Don't have an opinion on that? Medical professionals. If you say that that, you know, that you call it a baby and you give it rights, then essentially you're saying that that woman.

Does not have rights. Right to an abortion, which is an extremely important right for women. And without it, you can't live a full and happy life in this country. Without abortion, you don't think you can live a full and happy life?

Absolutely not. Because so many people need abortions. My.

Wife had two. So you guys are okay in some circumstances with third term abortions, late term abortions? I mean, it's not really my call. Well, you're an American voter. So I mean, it is in a lot of ways.

If states are going to vote to make these laws, then at the same time, you guys do have a say in. Legally speaking, where would you limit the ability for a pregnant woman to have an abortion? At what point in the pregnancy?

I actually would not. You wouldn't at all? No, I wouldn't. So all the way up to the moment of birth? I really think it should be up to the family. So is there any point, second trimester, third trimester, where you would say abortion should be illegal?

I personally wouldn't, no. Okay. So you don't think it should be illegal at any point in the pregnancy? I think we're done. Thank you. It's a pretty easy question,.

Though. Thank you so much. Have a great day. There are a lot of people who do not want to.

Answer this question for some reason, but I think I know why. So they're a conservative anti-choice outlet, so I might not talk to them if I were you. You can handle it. You seem smart enough. Oh, she's definitely smart enough not to talk to you.

You wouldn't make anything, any type of abortion illegal under any circumstances at any point in the pregnancy? Do it. We're good. Where are they going? We're good. Okay. Bye, guys. At what point would you, during a pregnancy, would you make abortion illegal?

I don't think that it's necessary.

To have that conversation. I just think that it's arbitrary to have that conversation.

This is a pro-life media group, right? They're anti-abortion media group. No, they're wrong with that, though, right? Yeah, forced motherhood is female enslavement.

Female enslavement. Wow. Okay. There are a lot of women who support the pro-life movement,.

Though. What about that? They're deluded. They're deluded. They're marginalized. They're oppressed, and they're a shameful force. Absolutely brainwashed. So pro-life women are brainwashed?

I think that a provider is the person who is making the decision, you know, who would say to the person, you know, who is... I just don't think that. That's a conversation that needs to.

Happen, though. But a woman just doesn't feel like having the baby anymore. I really don't.

Think that's something that happens every day. I mean... Probably not, but you'd be okay with it. I think abortion has to be a right. If you're carrying it that far to term,.

It's a medical emergency. If you shut it down in, like, seven months or something, then you're not going to be able to save a woman's life. And what if that fetus isn't.

Viable anymore? Okay, so unless it was a medical emergency, you'd say limit abortion up to a certain point? No, I don't think so. No. Okay. So basically any time, for any reason. Yeah. You believe there should be no point in a pregnancy where it should be illegal to terminate that pregnancy?

That's correct. For any reason whatsoever? That's correct. Okay. Thank you for being honest, because we got a lot of people who will not answer that question.

Well, wow. What can you say? I mean... It's a cult, is what it is. I mean, it's a cult. You can just see in the actions and attitudes of the same kind of utter lack of rational thought going on that I see with certain Mormon missionaries, you know, members of, you know, back years ago when I had my encounters with the cause, no matter how wicked that cause is.

And like I said, we live in a day where we know so much more about it. Absolutely amazing. And this time I was reading some of the signs too. It's like, oh, good grief. I don't think I can handle standing outside the Supreme Court.

They must have lots of cops and stuff out there. But there you go. I did notice most of the people out there were women other than that one guy that, you know, my wife had too. Oh my. That's where our society is.

And it just left me absolutely positively stuttering. It really, really did. Now, a couple weeks ago, I said I was going to do this and then other stuff came up and I didn't. And I apologize. And I've had a few people, I think, that have gotten somewhat angry with me because of this.

But back toward the end of February, a statement was published at the Ligonier Annual Conference. And it's called The Word Made Flesh, the Ligonier Statement on Christology. The actual statement is very, very short.

It says, we confess the mystery and wonder of God made flesh and rejoice in our great salvation through Jesus Christ, our Lord. With the Father and the Holy Spirit, the Son created all things, sustains all things and makes all things new.

Truly God, he became truly man, two natures in one person. He was born of the Virgin Mary and lived among us. Crucified, dead and buried, he rose on the third day, ascended to heaven and will come again in glory and judgment.

For us, he kept the law, atoned for sin and satisfied God's wrath. He took our filthy rags and gave us his righteous robe. He is our prophet, priest and king, building his church, interceding for us and reigning over all things.

Jesus Christ is Lord. We praise his holy name forever. Amen. Well, I had not heard about this. Evidently, it was quite some time in the making. And, you know, my first thought was, what prompted this?

Because almost always, almost always, when a creedal statement has been formulated, it has been forged in the fires of controversy. It was meant to clarify something that was in dispute at that time. And certainly, there are all sorts of anti-Trinitarians out there.