The Gospel of Thomas (1-39), Abortion Zealots, and the Ligonier Christology Statement

And greetings welcome to the dividing line on it's it's some time in March.

Yeah, I think it's Tuesday and I a couple of I don't know sometime last week.

I think I went running with my wife after dark and I wear this Headlamp thingy and it's really bright

The technology they've come up with those things just incredible the past number of years But what it did is it shows me what

I'm breathing in while running or biking and Right now in Arizona, that's bad.

You get you get shots and stuff. Don't you for? Yeah Eight years fuck just The air is you could slice it

I mean, it's just filled with you know, you get you come out in the morning your car is covered in dust and pollen and All this kind of stuff and wow and it's finally caught up to me every spring every spring

This happens to where you know and I've been tested for like a valley fever and it all this type of stuff

But it's just sort of a I just call it my springtime asthma stuff. It makes me sound like I I Smoke three packs a day, especially after riding 50 miles or something like yeah

My my allergist diagnosed me that I am allergic to the southwestern portion of the United States of America By the way, um

Pretty pretty impressed what I did before coming in today. I was working

I missed it What how could you have missed the I mean the Babylon be?

Which by the way Babylon be has been shown to have a higher truth content that Breitbart news

But yes the Babylon be this morning reporting on my my circumnavigation of the globe in less than four hours, which that's that Let me tell you something winds going by that fast.

You're you're you're You every flaps and oh, it's it's bad anyway

That that would be nice to say three hours 54 minutes. I would take that give me really a meaningfully about Depending on whether I'm climbing or just what, you know somewhere around 78 miles maybe 75 78 not including stops and things like that.

So not quite 24 Thousand something but I am on my fifth time around the planet though But that's that's lifetime.

So anyway, if if you hear If I have to stop and cough and stuff like that,

I feel fine feel great. It's just this stuff that Will be bothering me till sometime in May when it gets hot enough that for some reason it stops

I don't know why it is but it's the infirmities of the flesh Shall we say anyway,

I? Have some books piled up over here and normally I don't have a bunch of books piled up over here, but Here for example, it's a book by Mark Goodacre Thomas and the

Gospels the case for Thomas's familiarity with the synoptic Gospels and then another book fairly recent

Simon Gather calls the composition of the gospel of Thomas and I likewise have here volume

Many things like volume two. I think there's I think there's five volumes

In this set that I have called the Coptic Gnostic library complete edition of the

Nag Hammadi codices and I'm very thankful to have this

I'll be reading from this today On the gospel of Thomas and then just it's not directly relevant

Thomas, but There are a lot of people finding this rather interesting You might find this book that came out.

I think last year But did it did it did it? Yeah last year

Baylor University Press Christian oxyrhynchus text documents and sources by Blumwell and Wayment It is good to have

Particular Resources available, especially when you're dealing with The utilization of these sources by the enemies of the faith and stuff like that so I'm not you know, it's probably no reason for most

Christians that have the Coptic Gnostic library laying around but It will be useful for us

For the reason that I want to read today The gospel of Thomas now

I If I have time if I can remember to do so I'll See Actually, maybe someone in the listening audience could do this for me.

Um, I forget what year it was. It was some time either late 90s or early part of this century

I wrote an article for the CRI Journal on the gospel of Thomas its background So like that just sort of introductory thing.

It wasn't Overly in -depth just you know familiarizing people with it and I would assume

That that's available now online because I know my whatever happened. I see a thing is

Is available so maybe that is too maybe someone can pull that up and let me know and at least

I can I can throw it into the link it to the

Blog our entry for this but The materials we've read to this point in Story time with Grandpa Jimmy as people have come to view it we read the proteo evangelium of James and yeah, there's some weird stuff in it and you can you can sort of hear the echoes of Gnostic sources

By the way, I did see Young Messiah over the weekend. I wrote wrote up a real just that night wrote up a real quick review of it and I Think some people were upset with me that I didn't just rip his lips off But it was obvious that They attempted to D Gnosticize it

You Can't you just can't be 100 % successful when the sources that you're sort of basing stuff on were

Gnostic in the first place, but The attempt was made. It wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it was gonna be because of the

The trailer where Jesus is opening his hand and the bird flies out. I figured that was the

Beginning story from the infancy gospel Thomas that we read last time it wasn't Jesus had found a dead bird and then brought back to life and and The Jesus of this movie was not the

Jesus of the of the infancy gospel Thomas striking people dead There was an instance where a playmate dies.

Well, it wasn't really a playmate It was somebody was it was a bully beating him up, but it was due to Lucifer Satan not due to Jesus and Satan also had a real major role in this particular film

And you know, it was all speculation as what you'd expect, but it wasn't nearly as bad as I expected it to be you know,

I'm still uncomfortable the whole idea of digging into things that you don't really need to be digging into but It like I said, it wasn't as bad as I thought it was at all as soon as I said everybody

What do you think about Risen? I haven't seen Risen. I'm not I don't I don't even as it was

Sitting there for that long in a theater is you know tough for me anyway But Up till now what we have read.

Yeah had all sorts of you know Gnostic elements the gospel of Thomas is Going to leave you scratching your head many times as To what in the world this is talking about The reality is

I Remember I forget which debate it was it may have it may have been 2000 it may have been the first debate with Shabir Where he actually said that the gospel of Thomas goes back to the first century and I was like Yeah The the form of Gnosticism that it promotes is is mid second century, it's that's really its origination and The only thing in the gospel of Thomas so it goes back to the first century is its reliance upon the

Synoptic Gospels and John That's the only only thing goes back to the first century.

But the problem is there have been a billion books written If you want to get published this is a good way to get published right on the gospel of Thomas You know getting published

Doing dissertations and stuff. You've got to find something that's new which in Christianity normally means heretical as well and So it's extremely popular has been for decades

To promote the gospel of Thomas to write about the gospel of Thomas and you gotta come up with something new so there's all sorts of people who have a vested interest in trying to make

Thomas something other than what it is, which is a Second century

Gnostic text that plainly is utterly disconnected from Jerusalem Galilee Jesus the disciples of Jesus the

Christian faith and everything else It's just way way way out there and it clearly comes from Really no earlier in 140 and Probably a little bit after that as far as dating it is is concerned now it'll make a little more sense to you if you will sort of have the

General idea of what Gnosticism is all about and it's really good in reading almost anything in the patristic the apologists the

Very early church fathers to know something about Gnosticism because they're all writing against it They considered it a great danger to the church.

So if you just know a few terms dualism

The idea that the spiritual realm is good and the physical realm is evil hence salvation is

The freeing of the good human spirit, which is a spark of the divine from its entrapment

It's a natural Entrapment in the physical body Enhance the idea of resurrection foolishness to the

Greeks Act 17 soon as Jesus Paul says resurrection.

They they start mocking As a result you had some

Development of the concept of docet ism From the Greek term Dachain, which means it seems so the idea that Jesus only seemed

To have a physical body because if he was really a good person representing the good

God rather than the evil God, which would be Jehovah of the Old Testament because The true

God could never have created the physical realm because the physical realm was fallen so there had to be these these eons these

Semi divine beings that descend down from the true

God and So so they remain they remain divine and Powerful, but they're a little bit farther down each time.

These are these are called eons all of them taken together called the play Roma the fullness and Jesus then being a representative of the good spiritual

God up at the top Couldn't have a physical body so he only seemed to have physical bodies

Docet ism. Dachain. It only seems he had a physical body So, you know Jesus and the disciple walking along the seashore and the disciple looks back and there's only one set of footprints

It's not like the silly poem on the wall in the bathroom at church that says why were why did you leave me at those?

Times that's not I didn't leave you then I was carrying you Not that not that story the idea that Jesus doesn't leave footprints in the sand because he only seems to have a physical body

He doesn't have a physical body So if you recognize that the idea is that salvation comes to you by Being by having that divine spark

Freed from the physical body and and that spark goes back and becomes one with The divine energy

Oneness the idea of becoming one with It's not really um one with the universe but Gnosticism did come from the east so there is a similar background as far as some of that goes

If you keep some of that in mind This will make more sense to you there are only a hundred and fourteen

Thank You Brian I will it is at equipped org and and Mitchell Sorry about that two of you posted that I Will grab those links later on and put them with the with the

Article 114 segments. This is not a gospel in the sense that This is just a sayings collection.

A lot of people have pointed out that it's sort of similar to the to Q But of course you never found

Q. There's no evidence of Q's literary existence. So But a sayings collection there really isn't any progression to it not necessarily any

Meaningful connection between one segment and the next segment. It's just The way it is so here we go

This is Thomas Lambden's Translation of the gospel according to Thomas.

This is in the Coptic Gnostic library volume 2 beginning on page 53

These are the secret sayings which the Living Jesus spoke in which Didymus Judas Thomas wrote down and he said

Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death Jesus said let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds when he finds he will become troubled when he becomes troubled

He will be astonished and he will rule over the all By the way, if you're expecting me to explain half of these

Be a long program and I'm not sure that I could Jesus said if those who lead you say to you see the kingdom is in the sky

Then the birds the sky will precede you if they say to you it is in the sea Then the fish will precede you rather the kingdom is inside of you and it is outside of you

When you come to know yourselves Then you will become known and you will realize that is you who are the sons of the

Living Father But if you will not know yourselves you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty

Jesus said the man in old days I'm sorry The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life and he will live

For many who are first will become last and they will become one and the same

I Just stopped there for a moment. You might want to take note of how many times very clearly the

Writer collector is Drawing from what is plainly canonical scripture in the

Gospels and then making changes and remember there's actually a you can sort of sense a subtext going on in here and anti Orthodox Anti -christian church subtext because the

Gnostics viewed the churches. Well, they were opposed to that church So there you go

We are now at number five Jesus said recognize what is your sight and that which is hidden from you become plain to you

For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest His disciples questioned him and said to him.

Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe and this is one of the verses where people sense a anti -orthodox

Diatribe Jesus said do not tell lies and do not do what you hate for all things are plain the sight of heaven

For nothing hidden will not become manifest and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered

Jesus said blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man and curses the man whom the lion consumes and the lion becomes man and he said

The man is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish

Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish He threw all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish without difficulty

Whoever has ears to hear let him hear by the way.

I Was always very afraid that Harold camping would discover the gospel

Because what he could have done with this Wow, anyway number nine

Jesus said now the sower went out took a handful of seeds and scattered them some fell on the road

The birds came and gathered them up others fell on the rock did not take root in the soil and did not produce ears

And others fell on thorns They choked the seeds and worms ate them and others fell on the good soil that produced good fruit

It bore 60 per measure and a hundred and twenty per measure it's very plainly a

Somewhat altered version of a canonical story Gia said I have cast fire upon the world and see

I am guarding it until it blazes Number 11

Gia said this heaven will pass away and the one above it will pass away The dead are not alive and the living will not die in The days when you consumed what is dead you made it what is alive when you come to dwell in the light

What will you do on the day when you were one you became two? And when you became two,

I'm sorry, and when you become two, what will you do? Almost sounds like the translation was trying to rhyme that but anyway

The disciples said to Jesus We know that you will depart from us who is to be our leader

Gia said them wherever you are you are to go to James the righteous for whose sake heaven and earth came into being

Gia said that us. Can you imagine if that said Peter? This would be one of the most favorite texts in all of of Rome Gia said to his disciples compare me to someone and tell me whom

I am like Simon Peter said to him you're like a righteous angel Matthew said to him you're like a wise philosopher

Thomas said to him master. My mouth is holy and capable of saying whom you are like Gia said

I am NOT your master Because you have drunk you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which

I have measured out and He took him and withdrew and told him three things When Thomas returned to his companions, they asked him what did you say to you?

Thomas said to them if I tell you one of the things which she told me you will pick up stones and throw them at Me a fire will come out of the stones and burn you up Remember The whole essence of Gnosticism is secret knowledge.

So this is Jesus giving secret knowledge and there you go Number 14

Gia said to them if you fast you will give rise to sin for yourselves And if you pray you'll be condemned and if you give alms you will do harm to your spirits

When you go into any land and walk about in the streets if they receive you eat what they will set before you and heal

The sick among them for what goes into your mouth will not defile you But that which issues from your mouth it is that which will defile you

Gia said when you see one who was not born of woman Prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him.

That one is your father Gia said men think perhaps that it is peace which

I have come to cast upon the world They do not know that it is dissension which I have come to cast upon the earth

Fire sword and war for there will be five in a house there three will be against two and two against three the father against the son the son against the father and They will stand solitary

Gia said I shall give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and What has never occurred to the human mind?

Disciples said to Jesus tell us how our end will be Gia said have you discovered then the beginning that you look for the end?

For where the beginning is there will the end be blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning?

He will know the end and will not experience death Gia said blessed is he who came into being before he came into being

You know, it's not even easy to read this. I mean It there's the

Since the thought doesn't flow the words don't flow either Gia said blessed is he who came into being before he came into being if you become my disciples listen my words

These stones will minister to you For there are five trees for you in paradise which remain undisturbed summer and winter and whose leaves do not fall

Whoever becomes acquainted with them will not experience death The disciples said to Jesus tell us what the kingdom of heaven is like he said to them

It is like a mustard seed It is the smallest of all seeds But when it falls on tilled soil, it produces a great plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky

Mary said to Jesus whom are your disciples like he said they are like children who have settled in the field

Which is not theirs when the owners of the field come they will say let us have back our field They will undress in their presence in order to let them have back their field and to give it back to them

Therefore I say if the owner of a house knows that the thief is coming He will begin his vigil before he comes and will not let him dig through dig through into his house of His domain to carry away his goods

You then be on your guard against the world arm yourselves with great strength lest the robbers find a way to come to you

For the difficulty which you expect will surely materialize Let there be among you a man of understanding

When the grain ripened he came quickly with his sickle in his hand and reaped it whoever has ears to hear let him hear

Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples these infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom

They said to him shall we then as children enter the kingdom? Jesus said to them when you make the two one and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside And the above like the below and when you make the male and the female one in the same so that the male

So that the male not be male nor the female female and you fashion eyes in place of an eye and a hand in place

Of a hand and a foot in place of a foot and a likeness in place for likeness Then will you enter the kingdom?

Then we well, I don't know about you but this doesn't preach very well just in case you noticed

It wasn't meant to it's Gnosticism, that's that's the whole idea is you you don't want

Regular people to be able to understand this this is There is a

Gross spiritual arrogance to Gnosticism. It's it's it's a it's only for the elite few. It's totally against the idea of of A gospel that goes out to all people and anything like that.

No, it's It's only for people who get to go through The right ceremonies and learn all the right keywords and men staring at their belly buttons all day long

I don't have my earphone in so I don't have any idea what you're saying Okay, thank you

Jesus said I shall choose you One out of a thousand and two out of ten thousand and they shall stand as a single one.

So see there you have small number of people who are smart enough to understand gnosis and They shall stand as a single one.

So The differences between them are wiped out when they are absorbed into the one His disciples said show us the place where you are since it is necessary for us to seek it

He said to them. Whoever has ears let him hear there is light Within a man of light and he lights up the whole world if he does not shine he is darkness

So you've got this spark within you see Jesus said love your brother like your soul guard him like the pupil of your eye

Jesus said you See the moat in your brother's eye But you do not see the beam in your own eye when you cast the beam out of your own eye

Then you'll see clearly cast the moat from your brother's eye, which is almost direct quotation Jesus said if you're not fast as regards the world

You will not find the kingdom if you do not observe the Sabbath as a Sabbath. You will not see the

Father Jesus said I took my place in amidst the world and I appeared to them in flesh I found the

I found all of them intoxicated I found none of them thirsty and My soul became afflicted for the sons of men because of all because they are blind in their hearts and do not have sight

For empty they came into the world and empty too they seek to leave the world But for the moment they are intoxicated when they shake off their wine, then they will repent

Jesus said if the flesh came into being because of spirit it is a wonder but if spirit came into being because the body it

Is a wonder of wonders Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has come Has made its home in this poverty

Gia said where there are three gods they are gods where there are two or one I am with them

Gia said no prophet is accepted in his own village. No physician heals those who know him

Gia said a city being built on a high mountain and fortified cannot fall nor can it be hidden Gia said preach from your housetops that which you

Will hear in your ear for no one lights a lamp puts it under a bushel Nor is he put in a hidden place rather he sets it on a lampstand so that everyone who enters and leaves will see his light

Jesus said If a blind man leads a blind man, they will both fall into a pit

Gia said it is not possible for anyone to enter the house of a strong man and take it by force unless he binds his Hands, then he'll be able to ransack his house

Gia said do not be concerned from morning until evening and from evening until morning about what you will wear

Gia said when when will you become revealed? I'm sorry, his disciples said when will you become revealed to us?

And when shall we see you? Gia said when you disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments and place them under your feet like little children and Tread on them.

Then you will see the Son of the Living One and you will not be afraid. I didn't write it

I just read it Gia said many times have you desired to hear these words which I am saying to you and you have no one else to hear

Them from there will be days when you will look for me and will not find me Gia said the

Pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge and hidden them They themselves have not entered nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to You however be as wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

I Think what I'll do Is I will up make a mark there.

I've got my handy -dandy Post -it tape flags

I will make a mark there and we will pick up with number 40 because I do not want to I'm a little concerned that some of you might be driving and That we would get sued because you fall asleep at the wheel and Get into an accident or something

And I don't want to do that. So we read the first 39 39 verses and I needed that All right

Before we move on to the next segment. I just wanted to play a Video I am sending it to you.

Do you have it? This will allow me to stop talking for four minutes and 38 seconds.

I think I Reposted this on Facebook and posted on Twitter because Don't even know what to say

The level of Self -deception

Especially You know, we live in a day where we have more knowledge and more understanding of the humanity of the unborn child

Yes, well Now I know

I am then ever before and so What you're about to hear

I Am probably not the best person to respond to it because I know

That I struggle mightily To show patience with people who clearly don't think who just simply

Follow the party line There's no reflection. There's no thought

I Really really really have problems with people like that and You're about to run into a bunch of them about to run into a bunch of them and So a lot of people responded to this on on Twitter, especially with just outrage and there's reason for that.

Here's Here's the video. Let's just you ready? All right Hi everybody,

I'm Dan Joseph with MRC TV and once again an abortion case has reached the Supreme Court as always

There are plenty of protesters here I'm going to talk to some of these activists and find out whether they think there is any time

During a pregnancy in which it should be illegal for a woman to have an abortion So tell us a little bit about your costume.

What are you? I am a uterus. You're a uterus Okay, at what point in a pregnancy? Do you think it should be illegal for someone to have an abortion?

I? Don't think that's my Question to answer and I'm not pregnant at what point do you think it should be illegal for a woman to have an abortion?

That's not up to me. It's up to medical professionals women for any reason under any circumstances

Have the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. This is an absolutely Positive moral choice.

So at any time during the pregnancy Absolutely Fetuses are not babies.

At what point do you think it should be illegal for a woman to terminate a pregnancy? I Think you know

Nobody knows what it's like to step in a woman's shoes except her

So at what point would you say legally speaking? It should be illegal. I'm gonna listen to the medical professionals

Thank you very much. You don't have an opinion on that Medical professionals if you say that that You know that that you call it baby and you give it rights

Then essentially you're saying that that woman does not have right right to an abortion, which is an extremely important right for women

And without it, you can't live a full and happy life in this country Without abortion, you don't think you can live a full and happy Absolutely not because so many people need abortions

So you guys are okay in some circumstances with third term abortions late term abortions,

I Mean, it's not really my call Well, you're an American voter

So I mean it is in a lot of ways if states are going to vote to make these laws then at the same time

You guys do have a say in legally speaking Where would you limit the ability for a pregnant woman to have an abortion at what point?

Actually would not you wouldn't at all all the way up to the moment of birth And I really think it should be up to the family

So so is there any point second trimester a third trimester where you would say? Abortion should be illegal.

I Personally wouldn't know okay, so you don't think it should be legal at any point in pregnancy to determine

It's a pretty easy question There are a lot of people who do not want to answer this question for some reason but I think

I know why Conservative anti -choice outlet, so I might not talk to them if I were you. Okay, you can handle it.

You seem smart enough You wouldn't make anything any type of abortion illegal under any circumstance at any point in the pregnancy

Do it. Where are they going? Okay. Bye guys. What point would you during a pregnancy?

Would you make abortion illegal? I don't think that it's necessary to have that conversation. I just think that it's

Arbitrary to have that conversation. This is a this is a pro -life immediate All right, so they're anti -abortion media

All right, no, they're wrong with that though, right? Yeah, forced motherhood is female enslavement. It's female enslavement.

Wow, okay There are a lot of there are a lot of women who support the pro -life movement. They're deluded.

They're marginalized. They're oppressed and they're a shameful Absolutely brainwashed so pro -life women are brainwashed

I think that a provider is the person who is making the decision, you know, who would say to the person, you know, who is

I Just don't think that that's a conversation that needs Feel like having the baby anymore.

I really don't think that's that's something that happens every day I mean probably not but you'd be okay with it.

I think abortion has to be a right you're carrying it that far to turn It's a medical emergency

If you shut it down in like seven months or something then you're not gonna be able to save a woman's life And what if that fetus isn't viable anymore?

Okay, so unless it was a medical emergency You'd say limit abortion up to a certain point

No, okay. So basically anytime for any reason You believe there should be no point in a pregnancy where it should be illegal to terminate that pregnancy

That's correct for any reason whatsoever. That's correct. Okay Thank you for being honest because we got a lot of people who will not answer that question well

Wow, what what what can you say? I mean It's a cult is what it is,

I mean it's a cult You can just see in the in the the actions and attitudes the same kind of Utter lack of rational thought going on that I see with certain

Mormon missionaries, you know Members of You know back years ago and I had my encounters with the moonies the same kind of thing absolute zealous dedication to the cause no matter how

Wicked that cause is and and like I said, we live in a day where we know so much more about Absolutely amazing and I this time

I was reading some of the signs too. It's like oh good grief. I Don't think I can handle standing outside the the

Supreme Court There they must have lots of cops and stuff out there, but there you go, um,

I That one guy that you know, my wife had to oh my

That's that's where our society is and It just left me absolutely positively stuttering it really

Really did now a couple weeks ago I said I was gonna do this and then other stuff came up and I Didn't and I apologize and I've had a few people

I think that have gotten somewhat angry with me Because of this but back toward the end of February a

Statement was published at the the Ligonier annual conference and It's called the word made flesh the

Ligonier statement on Christology The actual statement is is very very short

It says we confess the mystery and wonder of God made flesh and Rejoice in our great salvation through Jesus Christ our

Lord With the Father and the Holy Spirit the Son created all things sustains all things and makes all things new

Truly God he became truly man two natures in one person He was born the

Virgin Mary and lived among us crucified dead and buried He rose on the third day ascended to heaven

Ascended to heaven and will come again in glory and judgment for us.

He kept the law atone for sin and Satisfied God's wrath. He took our filthy rags and gave us his righteous robe

He is our prophet priest and king building his church interceding for us and reigning over all things

Jesus Christ is Lord we praise his holy name forever. Amen well,

I Had not heard about this evidently it was quite some time in the making and You know, my first thought was

What prompted this because almost always? Almost always when a

Credal statement has been formulated. It has been forged in the fires of controversy

It was meant to clarify something that was it in dispute at that time and Certainly there are all sorts of anti Trinitarians out there.

There are all sorts of I'm not sure why I've kept this in here because I'm not playing the video anymore.

There's there's all sorts of oneness You know, I mean you've got

TD Jake's so you've got the weakness of The Christology of the elephant room and Certainly liberalism.

I mean all of liberalism You see with Daniel Kirk fuller seminary

Really a fundamental denial of deity of Christ So liberalism

If you don't believe in the inspiration of Scripture once you Abandoned the idea that scripture is the honest us.

There's no reason to believe in all the rest of stuff. There really isn't I mean, you don't have a divine revelation that is

Clear enough and sufficient enough to give you any basis for believing them. So You know liberalism may still have

You know creedal statements You know, I'm sure that in most United Methodist hymn books you'll still have

The Apostles Creed someplace, but it's just well, that's what we used to believe in the past you know, we still sort of Connected to it by tradition, but you know, we don't really believe that Jesus was really

God, you know, we see God in Jesus type stuff so you've got all that but You know, so when

I read it, I'm like, oh, well, that's that's interesting. It it looks sort of like a creed

And then along with it came a set of how many do we have here?

25 Affirmations articles where you have an affirmation a denial so Article one we affirm that Jesus Christ is the incarnation history of the eternal word or logos of God the second person of the

Trinity Holy Trinity we deny that Jesus was a mere man or a fictional creation of the early

Christian Church and Then you're given some Bible references at that particular point in time it is

Interesting to me as a term son is not used in that first affirmation

Which is which is interesting so you've got these articles of assertion and affirmation and and then denial

Then I started seeing some reviews I Started reading some reviews and I'm like I hadn't thought about that and What it immediately?

Point out to me is if you write something like this

It is going to be so Carefully parsed

That in one sense it it gave me a higher appreciation

For the Specificity of the language of the ancient creedal statements that they have been able to survive

Examination for so long. For example, there was criticism of Yeah, article 7

In the affirmation we affirm that as truly man Christ possesses notice the present tense all the natural limitations and common infirmities of human nature and that he is like us in all respects except for sin and someone said

That's present tense So does Christ possess

Infirmities right now is Christ's human nature subject to infirmity Having entered into exaltation so even the

Even the use of tenses and things like that are going to be looked at very very carefully now

Even even if you disagree with some of the affirmations or say well You know, we want to avoid

Nestorianism we want to avoid docetism we want to avoid The misunderstandings of Nestorianism we mom, you know wasn't a story as an historian, you know obviously we spent

Two and a half three hours at one time on the dividing line on Christology going through the history of these various movements and And all the rest that stuff and so a statement like this can help us to rethink those things and to refresh our memory and so and and sometimes they're very useful because They'll state it in a fresh way that might

Help someone see something that they had not seen in the older way And things like that but I had to admit one of the

Objections and questions that was raised Did make me sort of sit back and Basically what a number of people initially said was um

Why is Ligonier doing this and it would be the same whether it was

Ligonier or the gospel coalition or Or us for that matter or any other

Organization that is not itself a church And I sort of sat back and I went, you know

It would be a little weird if we put out something like this I Mean thankfully, this isn't just RC Sproul saying

This is what I've thought up and Lots of scholars were involved and okay, that's great.

But Denominate, you know, I can see denominations doing this but it would just be really weird if Rich and I decide to put out a new creed, you know on Christology or something or salvation or whatever.

I mean writing books, you know, whatever but this is really laid out in the classical historical

Format that was used By churches And in the ancient world by the church at large and Then in modern times, you know well,

Eastern Orthodoxy moved away from anything like this as far as really specific creedal stuff goes but in the history of the

West You've got all sorts of stuff like this now there were books of theology, you know

Turretin's work not the modern turrets and fan but the real guy long ago it's just one example of Answering a question.

We affirm the Sassanians deny. We affirm the papists deny and and that kind of thing very very common again a very useful way of teaching but it was sort of odd that a

Ministry would take it upon itself to Produce something like this rather than a particular

Denomination or even even a seminary representing a denomination You know,

I could sort of see that but it did strike me as a little little strange at that at that point but in general

You know, I have very positive Response to it for the simple reason that almost any investment of energy

That will cause people to look to important things Foundational things is to be commended these days.

I mean Let's be honest. Isn't it now?

No, this is one of those places by the way Where my unscrupulous

Viewers and particularly the one particular Muslim Who watches all of this and hence will be accountable someday before God for everything that he's ever heard

Which is an amazing thing to consider They will take a a section like what

I'm about to give and they'll isolate it and put some kind of a wild Topic line on it that Doesn't have almost anything to do with what

I was actually saying So I thought it'd be good for me to throw it in there so if it does end up happening that way I Can always say this so I said right before that but it is an indication of The health or lack thereof of the modern

Believing church. I don't know what I don't Know what word to use anymore

Because evangelical means nothing today. It just doesn't So, you know when

I say believing church, I mean people who actually believe that God has spoken he's given us his word and What the word says is true

It is an indication of the health or lack thereof of that church That the vast majority of our people this

Statement and its articles would be wildly educational

Wildly educational and some of the criticisms of the article

Would not even be understood By many people reading it because they're not familiar enough with Christology as a whole to even have a position for example

One of the criticisms and I sort of caught this too before I read the criticism article

Well, the criticisms had to do with the issue of impeccability Now just out of complete

Honesty, just just complete honesty and don't feel like anyone's putting you down That's why

I say what's neat about this is it's educational it helps to Raise these issues, but if I said

I don't get the feeling that this That impeccability is a central issue here or it's even being affirmed or even being raised and it's really important to Christology Would you know what

I was referring to? Would you know what I was referring to? I would like to say that That Something like that in this field of Christology is far more important to introduce believers to than the vast majority of what we do introduce new believers to which is much more of a

Self -help methodology type thing than it is a grounded theological

Understanding of who Christ is and and so on and so forth. So impeccability Is the question

That I remember in Bible college and it was in Bible college for I actually

Had to deal with it. I was raised in a Christian Church. I hadn't ever heard anybody talk about at least not that I could remember Maybe it was

I didn't understand. I don't know could Jesus sin

And I've told the story before I remember I still remember this day when I Came to a conclusion on this and I've never found any reason to doubt the conclusion.

I came to But it was in DC Martin's Christian doctrines class at Grand Canyon College now

Grand Canyon University And we had discussed it in class and I was weighing it in my mind and some of us

Bible students had gone to the bookstore and It was in the old

Grand Canyon bookstore, which I can guarantee you is not there anymore given what they're doing to that campus It's probably a 10 -story building now

All of a sudden it struck me I'd listened to the arguments the argument being on the one side

God cannot sin and remain God because it is a fundamental violation of his nature But man

If he does not have the ability to sin is no longer man. So how could you just beat the

God man and Just right there in the bookstore

I came to a conclusion on it and I've never changed my mind and My conclusion was that it is significantly more definitional centrally definitional foundationally definitional of The nature of God To not be able to sin

Then it is to the nature of man to be able to sin Especially in light of the fact that we believe that someday man will be perfected in his sanctification and Will no longer be subject to sin.

Does that mean he ceases to have? ceases to be human No, it doesn't mean he ceases to be human

So on the definitional level to be truly the

God man Would mean that if Jesus sinned Basically God would cease to exist whereas Jesus being

Perfect in his nature and not fallen Would share the same

Ability not to sin that we will have in Glory itself and so he truly remains human and truly

God. And so I Have never really found the debate to be overly scintillating because I think that's

Really pretty foundational to an understanding of who Christ was well Well, the articles that I read is like not only is it not mentioned but It may be that some of the primary folks

Involved in production, but don't actually believe in impeccability They take the other view and I'm not gonna throw somebody out of the kingdom

Who would disagree with the formulation that I came to in My sophomore or probably sophomore or junior year in Bible College and of course

Many people have come to that formulation just not by the same path that I did But that's one of the questions that is then is then raised

When we're looking at something else, but it's good to look at these things and so, you know I'm very thankful that a lot of work went into it

Very very very useful. I hope people will read it and consider it The one question

I would have is Would have been I think maybe something if it had been produced by an ecclesiastical body

Probably have a longer lasting impact. I think if it had a Ecclesiastical body behind it but there you go, so there's just some thoughts

I had on the on the subject of You know, I'm not gonna nitpick this that the other thing

I think it'd be useful to go through and say well They're saying this because of this and here's the historical reasons for that I'm gonna be starting church history and in in Bible study finished the synoptic gospel study.

I Was saying, you know, it took me nine and a half years It was longer than that because when I debated Shabir Ali in 2006, we were already at the point of gyrus

So we had been going for at least a year at that point So it was it was 11 12 years that I was teaching through the synoptic

Gospels and Sunday mornings at PRBC So we finished that next is church history, but I also have to do a series on slavery somewhere in there to finish up the

Holiness code series as well. So we'll see when we get that but we'll definitely be covering be covering

All the Christological controversies and things like that as a part of the church history series

Which will all be posted on sermon audio in higher quality Audio than real audio was long ago

Most definitely so anyway, but I appreciate your next time around. I Got a lot of stuff.

Well, we'll get to it. We'll get to it. We'll see you Lord willing on Thursday see you then.