Open Discussion on Reformed Theology

All right, so Seven minutes to six and I'm doing a video here because I was involved in a discussion in a room and a bunch of people were nodding on Calvinism and Misrepresenting it and stuff like that and it was pretty typical and so what

I've done before is offered people the opportunity to have a real discussion about it and some people express some interest and I was supposed to actually produce

Actually produce the the link here and and do it and I'm talking as I'm figuring this out

Hi, Nina, and so on that link on Facebook. I got to put it up on Let's see put it up on another

Yeah, here we go. There we go. So Wow a lot of comments

Okay There we go. And we'll see if People come in.

There's three watching. Oh 1820 watching Hey Brian, and so on that link is if you want to commit into the stream yard room and actually have a discussion

You're welcome to and if not, that's okay. You don't have to We got different people on different areas who said that they, you know hated

Calvinism and Stuff like that and misrepresented it which is pretty typical so I am opening up a room and talking filling in the time until Hopefully we get the people in here we can blab we'll see

We'll see what happens So, how's everybody doing in the room? Hope you guys are having a good time

How many of you let's see? How many are Calvinist how many are non Calvinist?

How many don't even know what it really refers to and don't care you can type it in and let me know and Wow, I just some of the things people say when

I read comments And Let's see,

I'm looking through stuff. I read a lot of comments from people and I'll tell you sometimes

It's you know, they're supposed to Christians and Okay, Karen, you're on the fence, you know, you can come on in and ask questions.

We can have a discussion We put the link in This is the link to come straight into stream yard.

You would need a microphone to talk If you don't have one, it won't really do you any good

You can have use a camera if you have a camera, but if not, you can't use a microphone You don't have to have a camera on your closet

Calvinist Nate says and uh Rob Barnhart Lutheran. All right. I went to a

Lutheran college Believing in Calvinism a salvation issue. No, you don't have to believe in Calvinism to be saved

Since the day the Lord saved me to the 2010 came out of orthodoxy or syrian. Interesting good for you

If they're going to the humanist factor of free will in john, 663 65 Leviticus that's true.

That is true. Okay. Well, let's see if I can

I'm trying to find I don't even know where it was. I mean i'm looking okay. Let me say this again.

I'm looking at the The uh discussion That Manifested but I don't even know which

Which group it was which uh facebook page it was because it's not showing me

Reform usually has a lot of Has at least a belief in the doctrine of grace. Oh, we got a big doctrine grace thing um

And then so i'm reading some of the comments And uh, oh look at this kevin thompson says

Sadly many believers don't realize what a seriously disruptive issue calvinism is until it strikes near them

Oh boy, look at that Let's see what a reply is amen i've seen it

I lean towards refume reform view another person says But I listen to the body of christ as a whole because I don't think calvinism is the entire picture of the faith.

Okay scary parallelism with islam No love of god for all mankind.

Wow, that's not an accurate representation That's the thing that gets me is so many uh people who are christians

Who uh Misrepresent what calvinism is and you'd think that they would be interested in being corrected

Say no, that's not what we teach. Yes, it is. It's like the uh, the guy, uh was debating on oneness a couple weeks ago tracy turboville and uh

I said no, that's not what the doctor of the trinity is and he said yes it is I said no, it's not three gods and he said look maddox says

I know more about what you believe than you do And I remember that I was like, man, that is really something so, uh

Calvinist refute the to face this refuse. Oh refuse It's got me beat where they get their assurance of salvation from how do they know they're one of the elect because they believe

You see they think they got these great questions that really get us but they don't how do you know you're lucky because you believe

That's because god gives grants faith to the believers True belief true faith true belief Linda, how are you?

Now if you don't know linda, I don't know if you can hear me but uh you'll have to um, look down at the bottom of the screen on the window there

And I believe it'll say cam and mike or cam slash mike And you can play with that and also sometimes just so you know

On your browser you have to grant permission and there's a trick a lot of people don't know about And i'm going to share the screen and show you a trick

That a lot of people what it'll help a lot of people. Okay So, let's see if I can do this

Without causing it to Infinitely repeat itself. Yeah, there it goes.

It doesn't matter. So look Right up here Right.

I'm just putting my mouse up here And clicking on it And that's what comes up So he says camera microphone you can allow so you just click on that lock

And uh That's one of the ways. Okay. It's one of the ways to uh There we go

There we go. One of the ways to make sure that works. Okay What's up? What's up matt? Hey, hey rob.

How are you? Good good good. So, uh, since you want to have an open discussion about reform theology

I I have a question to try to let you uh, kind of figure it out because uh

You you uh played a big role in my life of faith over the years so um, you're kind of one of the few people that kind of you're not quite presbyterian, but not quite baptist, but you're reformed so um,

I guess like where um, I think some people get frustrated at least when we're discussing reformed is that could be

I have a broad meaning and It can have a very narrow meaning. So like, uh, the wcf and the 1689

Baptist confession Can usually kind of define things down in a confessional sense of what reform might mean to those two groups

But there could be a lot of other people who consider themselves reformed believers um

And not necessarily be tied down to those specific confessions Because I think I right, you know, i've been listening to you a long long time.

So I think sometimes you depart from The wcf on a few issues. Yes, I do.

So uh How would you how would you have like a defining definition?

Of what it is to be reformed. Oh just five points Just the five points tulip so you so you don't make the distinction that that would be more of a form of calvinism and that the

Some people say that in order to be considered reform. You have to hold to one of the confessions well

I have a knee -jerk reaction to adhering to confessions Yeah, it's just the way

I was raised I guess I don't follow the crowd and move I moved 40 times 26 before I was 12

And I learned to become independent not this is good or bad but uh, but people say to me

Do you affirm the confession to so -and -so confession? That's you got to confirm and I look at them i'm like Is this a requirement that I have to be in your church to go to confirm to that particular of a confession?

If they say yes, you know, i'm not interested in dealing with them very much because they kind of relate um

That confession whatever it might be particular one to the truth And when I was in seminary get this

I would come to school this is Westminster theological seminary calvinist seminary.

I would come to school my hair spiked And a mod kind of a jacket and uh, i'd listen to striper heavy metal christian band on the way up the road the hill and um

I would come into class You don't go to lunch. I come into class late because i'd be talking to mormons and joe was witnesses

And i'd ask questions, you know out here I was a street I was talking to so no one else did this Because they were in my opinion to some degree cookie cutters

I didn't fit the mold and um uh one time at the bookstore these two guys were twins and they

They wrote in block letters. Remember that and they started uh rebuking me for not following all the reform perspectives

And they were doubting my christianity because I wasn't I I would listen to heavy metal, uh, you know like christian heavy metal

Yeah, i'm familiar with that that that form of argumentation. I've listened to metal for most of my life

So yeah, I like it, you know, I like corn and stuff like that and so at any rate, uh

Somebody else i'm kind of dragging this out too long Somebody else just didn't go there was in the bookstore heard this and just got all over these guys said you can't do that So anyway

This was kind of the introduction I had to a lot of this idea of reform stuff You got to believe this you got to believe that I I just don't go with that I don't like signing a document saying yeah

From all this and that this confession that confession because it's too pigeonholed in some areas I want to go with what the word of god says

That's what I hold to and it's the word of god. So I didn't answer your question very well, but kind of rambled No, that's fine.

Uh, what do you what do you what do you think about like some of uh, some of the Reformed believers in the past considering Amaraldians to be a class of reformed believers, even though that they don't hold to right hell and Right, and there's they're in they're reformed ish, but not really reformed.

They're amaraldian. That's why they have a word for it Yeah, that's what I say. Okay. Well, look i'm just trying to figure out like in order to have uh a conversation like um

How somebody would even try to have a conversation because I know I don't know if you've ever uh, Watched dr.

Jordan cooper, but usually he has to kind of caveat Everything he says when he discusses the reform because if he starts talking about what reform believe like usually

Separate groups kind of complain that you're not really Being accurate, you know, and that's because there could be a wide group of beliefs on certain issues so like um

I guess my question is like do you ever struggle with the idea that From your understanding of what reform means would lead to a kind of a lack of unity in every area

Yeah No, I believe that those people who are reformed in their basics and then differ on the adiaphora are disobeying romans 14

Romans 14 1 through 12 says that you're not past judgment on your brother's debatable issues And so I bring up this bring this up to people and say look, you know

I believe in infant baptism not for salvation. I believe in the continuation of the gifts, but I don't deny the sufficiency of scripture

Uh, so why can't you fellowship with me? Oh, i'm sorry You can't hold to that. We're not you know, we're not going to be able to fellowship

I've had people do that and I say you're making judgments in violation of romans 14 And what they're doing is is raising these kind of issues of the issues of the essentials of the faith

And you can't do that. They can't justify it So they're the ones who are doing the unnecessary and ungodly division i'm not i'm saying we have the right to disagree

Let's agree disagree. Let's agree or disagree Well politely and show the unbelievers that our love is for jesus

And in this case reformed theology in the basics and we can disagree on the on the particular nuances of some adiaphora

But the so too many of them don't want to those are the ones I usually associate with the idea of Do you hold of this confession?

Those are the ones that are okay. We're done talking, you know, because they don't have much uh empathy you know, no,

I that that makes sense, I was just trying to uh, give you an opportunity to kind of to find out like what that is because I mean

I i've been listening to you for a long time. So I kind of know What your positions are on things and stuff like that?

But other people, you know, they kind of have different ideas of what reformed and they might have arguments and I didn't want to see like I when

I'm trying to talk to my reformed brothers, uh, sometimes I get a lot of pushback of like well, that's not what

I believe and i'm like well I'm trying to get to the main points of reform doctrine uh as often as I can but sometimes

I you know It feels like I think from being over in a certain group,

I see that this is the result of People feeling that reformed believers try to always hide behind the fact that you don't understand our position

It's because there's so many Positions on certain topics that they feel like there is no uniform position on things

That's just it. They don't have to you know, I went to a lutheran college presbyterian seminary went to a baptist church

I was baptized by chuck smith from calvary chapel And I know that god casts his net further than than we do

I also know that the enemy of the gospel wants us to be so divided on particulars that we won't be unified in the in The essentials and that's that is

I believe is unbiblical, you know I've often talked about writing a book called the romans 14 the forgotten chapter now i'm definitely reformed

But I can tell you some of my reformed brothers and sisters You know, they have their head, you know stuff in a dark place and they don't want to just let loose

And be gracious and be kind and we we find people in reform camps You find people in armenian camps who are like that as well.

So They're the ones who cause disunity not me. I say no, let's go. Let's talk, you know

Let's just get along and go preach and teach so I don't know if this is quite on topic, but this is kind of a question

I have in mind I've been wanting to ask so since you're here, I figured I'd ask you What about the debate within reform circles about crt?

And things of this matter like when do you think it would be?

I don't seem to think I don't seem to see any time where Um some of the people who really care about this issue except on one particular side

Which is usually from the crt pro crt position uh kind of questioning each other's salvation seems that a lot of people who are on the other side kind of Naturally, uh assumed that they're still a christian brother.

Uh I I guess I struggle to understand that because in a sense they're kind of denying certain truths of jesus's death on the cross and how we're all one race and And they're preoccupied by a lot of other things and I guess

I would start to kind of really question their regenerate state Uh, depending on how they argue

And I I don't see a lot of that Uh on on the anti crt crowd and I was just wondering

Uh what your position on that is and whether or not, um, it's a multi -faceted question

So you got to simple it down to one question. Okay, would you would you view? Somebody be pro crt no matter what their position on no matter what the arguments are

Would you say that that's an essential or would you say that's a non -essential crt critical race theory?

Yes I'm surprised that you're asking the question is crt an essential doctrine well, no i'm saying like if I Believe in crt.

Do you it basically i'm asking? Would you say that that person would you question that person's?

Confession or would would you know? I would say well, what do you what do you think crt is?

I always have to find out more You always have to find out. What are they teaching? What do they what do they mean by something a lot of times people just have

Bad ideas about stuff And so I have to find out, you know So, what do you think critical race theory is?

well, it Can depend on the person but basically it's um, basically that the african -american and other minorities cannot usually be uh included in this group and they have been

America has systematically oppressed them in various meaning ways um Is it true?

In some senses. Yes in some senses. No It's in some senses. Absolutely.

Yes, uh, many of the blacks were were um, oppressed, uh mistreated uh

You know killed Tortured all kinds of stuff at the hands of white people. Absolutely It's true

Also, it's also true that many blacks owned blacks in the 1800s It's also true that many whites owned whites

In the 1800s and this kind of slavery is not talked about the thing is that um

Bitterness or anger leads. How's it work? Bitterness leads to anger anger leads to murder

Fear leads anger anger leads to hate hate leads to suffering. I'm, sorry. Uh, i'm, sorry.

I was quoting yoda But what i'm saying is is that uh what we need to do with crt

Is realize that it is being used by the left in order to oppress other people

And what they want to say is that the oppression of this group of people in the past was wrong So now let's do this to the the group of people who were the oppressors.

I never oppressed anybody Yeah, that that would be it rebex. Kennedy's, uh particular position on that the things in order to square up past injustices

We must commit injustices now in order to balance the scale Right, and that's that's an injustice in itself

So if you can see the screen make 1984 fiction again, and if you've read the novel 1984, but you absolutely need to but one of the things that's happening in our country is with the

Communist manifesto is being implemented by the left the radical left rules for radicals What they're doing is they are setting people against each other

And when they set people against each other then division causes and energy is being put into that resentment and hatred

And then the people who are in power the oligarchy Will then use that as a means to gain more power by restricting other people's freedom and this is exactly what's happening so Uh, you know, my

I have daughters and two of them have said that they are attracted to black guys. I'm like, okay

I don't care Whatever. It doesn't matter bother to me. I just I don't care as long as they're good people. That's all

I care and That's how I am. So and people say well, you know whites have benefited a whole bunch really

I'm almost 65 years old. I'm still having to work 40 to 60 hour weeks to keep up with what

I got to do I've had to go into debt in order to get education I've had to bite the bullet on so many things my wife has too

Where's their white privilege and yet they'll say see this stuff is keeping the blacks down as an example or the hispanics or whoever whatever

And I can tell you I've got a lot of experience from southern california where the hispanics were running rampant and illegal

And the way their people bend over to help them out And how the government bends over to help them out, you know

So you say I had to learn how to speak spanish sufficiently to get around and do various jobs from southern california so you know the crt thing is really kind of a an annoyance because It's being used by the left to to oppress people

And that's yeah, I mean to where I start to really get concerned And I start to wonder whether or not the person i'm talking to Is regenerate or not is the the leaving loud particular

Issue where we are now actively calling for people to divide from the body of christ and uh

That's right and uh They're you know, it was uh You know,

I said, you know, I studied church history a lot. Uh, dr James white kind of inspired my geekery on that one and there's actually a ancient church heresy that uh kind of Resembles crt pretty closely.

I don't know if innovationism Really the the idea is essentially that uh, if I offer

The goods to the roman gods in order to um You know be seen and not be killed

There became a debate about whether or not I can still come to communion or not, right?

And so so if you offer anything to a pagan god, you can't come to communion. So some people

Uh were strongly against this and some people started to kind of welcome people without repentance to communion

No, and then um Ambrose and a few others kind of said no no, no, no

Like no, no, no, like we're not just going to give communion to anybody. They actually have to show elements of repentance

Well, then there's a guy named ovation who said no. No, there is no forgiveness for people who do this period.

They never That's not true innovation didn't know he's talking about in that respect Yeah, well, that's why it's a heresy

But what I see is elements of this in crt, which is the great sin of racism, which by the way

Everybody on the screen is racist by this definition. Um It's never can be forgiven.

It can never be absolved You just are right like right and they're because if you're right, that's racism and there is no forgiveness for this

So this would be a form of innovationism and what's interesting about the novationists is eventually they've uh formulated their own churches uh under these ideas and Leaving loud is exactly

Part of that is that we're gonna go we're gonna go form our own churches. This exclusively believes what we believe and is even our own race only pretty much our own race or unless you want to You know signify that you believe what we say exactly as we say it

You could come along too, but just know you're racist um Yeah, so I see elements of this heresy in crt

It's it's kind of interesting um that's where I start to have a problem with it, but I was just trying to get a feel for like you you know,

I know you I know what you mean by essentials I was just Curious if you would view that as touching on any essentials.

No, no, no No, it's just an issue of sin and people are going to adhere to something like that The essentials are something the scriptures have said of essentials and stuff.

So let me ask you are you reformed? No, i'm lutheran. You would not consider me to be reformed.

Okay lcms elca what wells Um, i'm particularly weird wisconsin

Yeah, wisconsin evangelical lutheran synod. Wow. Oh elc

Yeah Yeah Yeah Look, okay. Hold on real fast lion of judah. I'm waiting for you to get in It says devices not connected which means you're trying to get in But uh, you don't have an audio thing set up And I can if you type stuff in I can walk you through it should be computer tech

So sometimes you have to allow those things to to be on When you first open stream yard for me

I have to allow the microphone and the camera and stuff like that to turn on Or else it will say that Right and the way to do that there's two main ways one is on the screen at the bottom

I think that the people come in can see the cam mic option on the bottom If not on your lock at the up the top of your screen

You can click on that lock where you type in www. There's a lock next to it. Just click on it once and It will open up and you can then um allow

Stuff like that. I did not know that one that that's a that's a neat little trick. Thank you uh, you know, yeah,

I appreciate you answering my questions it was just I guess what my my thing is as being a lutheran like it's a little bit easier to kind of understand like What a lutheran believes because generally speaking we have to confess the book of concord and so there is

Not too often an issue where you could run into somebody who's claiming to be a lutheran And believes a lot of different things than I do and so like when we're having a discussion about reformed theology

I usually have to Understand what that particular person's persuasion reformed theology is you have to ask questions.

So have you ever heard of rod rosenblatt? Yep 15 He was my professor in uh in college lutheran college

That's just so you know All right. Anybody else want to blab? rob, josh, little me

Um, let's see. I I have a question about the unconditional election stuff because i'm not just so um

The the bible says that god. Um Uh, just i'm just reading here.

Are you so you have not chosen me I have chosen you and god also, um

Decides who to attract to him or draw to him. Um, is that um uh what

Is there any basis for that to be? Done on or like is that can we can we understand or justify that or is that?

Um something that's just purely for god's will From god's will or is it something that he has like predetermined based on His his foreknowledge of the future like i'm just i'm not exactly sure how that's meant to work

How unconditional election works? It's not based on anything foreseen in an individual because that would be showing favoritism

That would be implying that there's something good in a person But the bible says that the unbeliever is a slave of sin who doesn't seek for god is a hater of god

That's romans 6 14 through Or it's romans 6 14 through 20 and also romans 3 10 11 and 12 and the unbeliever cannot

Understand the things of god for the fruitlessness to him first corinthians 2 14 is by nature a child of wrath Ephesians 2 3 is dead in the sins of ephesians 2 1

So because of that God looking into the future which implies that he'd be learning which is another problem

But uh, that means he would then be saying well what's going to happen in different circumstances Well, that implies then that a person's free will we haven't discussed free will yet It implies that their free will will enable them

To be able to simply choose god and that god knows who will choose them. It's always going to interact with that Well, there's two problems one is god's learning the one well three problems and then god is

Making his decision based upon what they do And the other one is it violates the scriptures that say that the unbelievers can't and they won't they're not going to be able to Come to god, so there's several issues there that are just unbiblical and counter, uh, logical so, uh,

Unconditional election means that god Has chosen whom he will for salvation not based on anything in us.

It's not conditioned on us It's conditioned on what's in him the criteria that he has That's what that means and Uh, and how will that criteria differ between different people in my opinion like it's wait, wait, wait, wait

I'm talking to him, but that's because one at a time josh. Go ahead. Sorry Sorry, i'll just um, just trying to understand like if me or the person next to me, you know

One of us is is chosen is elected and one isn't like what? Um, Uh, it's that I mean there's a couple things on that like when the bible says go out and you know

Preach the good news. Are you preaching it to? The good news to people if it's if they're if they're not, you know, someone that is is elected like it doesn't

Um, i'm just trying to trying to work out how this is sure Our job is is not to elect anybody.

That's god's job The funny thing about election is the more we preach apparently the more people are elect

So we do not know How god works his sovereign decrees. He works all things are for the counsel of his will ephesians 1 11

We calvinists don't deny free will and we don't deny that our preaching Affects people's salvation.

We just don't know how it all works and nobody does And you know i've been i'm very evangelical.

I wear this shirt other shirts out public. I want to start conversations I look for opportunities to witness, uh constantly

And and I do I drop hints, you know, my last name is slick and i'll like I did it today You know, I was at a place

I said, yeah, my name's slick and i'm a reverend, you know reverend slick It doesn't sound good and I use that, you know

I want people to say really where or what and get a conversation most of the time. They don't they don't follow up I'm, just saying hey you're trying and the issue is that god works at all according to his will

And that's just this is how it is. So there are lots of verses that I could read to you Uh, I got a list of stuff about unconditional election where god chooses

And a lot of things here's a I want to make a comment for those who are listening. I want to discuss it later um

A lot of people are humanistic in their theology and then they attack the sovereignty of god in their humanism

And they don't realize you're doing this. So josh, maybe you've heard me do this before. Can I Set you up and trick you a little bit with something

You sure can okay. I'll try all right And this is nothing malicious, which it's on the definition of free will you ever heard me do this before?

Um, I don't think so. Okay. Good good a perfect victim. Yes All right, here we go, by the way,

I have a cool accent I like your accent so, um Is free will the ability?

Uh to be able to choose to do good choose to do bad And you can choose which one you want to do without being forced

Is that free will? um I would say yes Okay, see

I I told you it's going to trick you. I showed I was going to set you up Let me know and I did and you fell for it i'll explain how okay, you're smiling so i'm glad you're smiling so, um

Does god have free will? Uh, not by that definition

Exactly, not by that definition. So exactly correct. So now what you've done Is and I used to do it too is make free will a definition based on my experience and my sensibilities

Instead of god being the center god being the standard And that's it's humanism when we say

I I know I chose god I know that i'm the one who made that choice. That's how I don't care what you say.

I know what I did That's humanist thought And so the correct definition of free will would be the ability to make choices that are not forced

That are consistent with your nature And that little bit right there, um is useful because lion jr is in twice now, uh

Is useful because then it applies to god as well as the standard he cannot choose to do evil But he can only do which is consistent with his nature.

Now. We have a definition that is based on god's character And then when we apply it to man because we're made in his image that we can ask the unbeliever

He has a sinful character He is a slave of sin a hater of god doesn't do any good.

He doesn't seek for god, etc, etc How can such a man simply choose god of his own free will? And that's where we move from there and go that way

Sure. So just a point of clarification from before i'm still just on unconditional election

It's it sounded like in something that you said that someone um That that the status of whether someone is elected or not

Uh is dynamic or it could or it can change over time Um, is that the case?

No Election happens from before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1 4. I hope the lion come on back in.

Okay And we'll get you next because I asked you to come in but um

Ephesians 1 4 says god, uh, god chose us in him before the foundation of the world

So before we made any choices before anything like that Uh god had ordained it

But like I said, we don't know how he did it. We don't know what criteria he doesn't tell us And so that's the way it is, but he did it before and it's set

Right and and is everyone that is elected will everyone that is elected be saved because they like okay, so is there theoretically if you just pressed fast forward on on the universe would um the number of people

Uh, i'm trying to work out how to word this Um, if if if I go if I go and become an evangelist and you know convert people, um

Or if I did not Would the same people that would have converted or have been saved be saved regardless of my interaction with them because they were already elected

See, that's a good question. And now we're getting to what's called counterfactuals And I don't want to get too heady here but a counterfactual is

God is the source of all actuality and potentiality out of a infinite number of potential

Potentialities he chose one actuality along with his thread of all actual events that actually occur and so it's like saying uh

You know, could you have preached on that corner or could you have not preached in that corner in one sense? Yes in another sense.

No in one sense Yes, you could have preached a different corner because you had the free will to do that But in another sense, no, you don't because god ordained that you do

Even though it's within your freedom And he can work it because he can change the heart of the king make it go where he wishes it to go

Proverbs 21 1 And and as I illustrate, you know to people like uh that thing behind you

That's a speaker, right? Is that a keyboard way behind me with the blue lights, right? Is that what it is? Okay, so I got you to say yes

By asking you a question But I didn't violate your free will Hold on.

We got a line. We got to mute you because you're typing or doing something there Hold on I'm gonna mute you

Okay. Okay. Go ahead You can talk so I can get you to do what I want you to do without violating your free will and god can certainly

Do that as well But he can also change our wills within us so that what we freely want to do is what we freely want to do

Anyway, he moves the heart of the king where he wishes it to go. God is a lot more sovereign than we think he is

Because people are humanist in their ideology. They don't realize it Yeah um, so so I guess um

What that would lead me to is, um, you know, do uh, you know for example if I wanted to go and be a um

You know evangelical person and go and try and get more people saved or whether I don't does that ultimately actually matter?

Because these things Because these people have already been elected It's a yes and a no again.

Does it matter or don't matter? It doesn't matter in one sense. It does in another sense Because god is ordained whatever shall come to pass

And he's not thwarted by your Lack of faithfulness or my lack of faithfulness and he has his ways of covering the bases and yet all actualities

Exist because god has ordained and chosen that they exist And so the actuality is what of you refusing to go preach

Is the actuality god has ordained to exist So he's not surprised by it and yet and this is where it gets interesting yet you're still the one responsible

And we get into what we call. Um ultimate, uh proximate and efficient causation and um, these are are interesting discussions, but You know, you're lutheran.

That's what you said. So, uh No, i'm uh, oh, sorry assemblies of god

Ah, you're arminian premillennial Probably uh, honestly i'm i'm i'm too i'm too green in uh,

Understand all the different words. But yeah, okay Um assemblies of god, I'm going to give you a heads up warning.

They are moving towards apostasy Slowly, but they are they're affirming women pastors and elders and that is forbidden in scripture

And 80 of all the groups that i've researched who affirm women pastors and elders within two generations

Start affirming homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle And uh, we can go into that if you want.

But anyway, so, uh, you know, they're not saying they're not christians I'm, just saying the movement is going bad.

It's it's just going downhill At least here. Where do you live? Because uh, you have an accent australia

Oh, okay other side of the world. Well, i'm surprised they they let you do anything because covid

Well, this is all we can do All you can do i've been researching a lot of covid stuff.

But anyway Hey, can we maybe switch over to lion? I want to see what he's got to say. Okay. No, I appreciate it. Matt Thanks a lot.

All right, man. Anytime Hey lion, are you there? And I don't hear you

He's probably frantically pressing buttons Are you there testing?

Okay, can you hear me now Oh, I didn't unmute you. I muted you didn't unmute you and i'm asking you to talk.

So that was my bad Uh, yeah, I hear you Yeah, okay. Um uh

Just a second um Just a second. I had a good point My point was this in the old testament.

There was like name in the syrian and A whole bunch of people that weren't regenerated, but they believed so I I have a problem with the whole like, you know

Regeneration leads to faith rather than faith precedes that And then regeneration is a result of the belief and also in ephesians 113

That's one thing at a time so you said in the old testament you have to give me a scripture reference so that I can go in and look to See if what you're saying is accurate

Okie dokie, just a sec Sure Yeah, and not trying to be mean but people say things

I don't just I just don't assume that they're representing the issue properly I have to see the scriptures for myself

So we can see Okay Might take you a bit and that's what

I like to do. So you're saying nahum, right? Naaman or nahum, okay

Now names in chronicles Hey shane, how are you? Tony walker.

He's okay from home in australia. Let's see david rocky Let's see, we all have free will the same way a character in a novel has but unlike most characters in a novel

We know we have an author who wrote our parts Oh So, uh, okay maybe lion might want to come back to that question later because he can't find the reference

One of the things I teach people is don't make assumptions Don't assume certain things are true

And if you guys want I can give you an illustration of that You know people do it all the time

Um, the the reference was second kings five second kings five

Yes, sir All right. Is there a particular verse in chapter five? Um, just a second

Uh Um, just a sec You always want to know the exact reference they can read it exactly and and then go for it and look

Okay Okay, this is it. Okay Okay, um

So around like verse 14 to uh, okay 14 to what

Uh, just a second, um to like, uh Uh To 18

Okay, tell you what i'm going to do. I'm going to share the screen and look at the text. Okay Okie dokie.

All right Okay, i'll get it to come up here. There we go

And There we go All right So i'll just make that a full size come on open up.

Oh, there we go right there. All right so you're talking about uh

Second kings 5 14. So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the jordan according to the word man of god

It's okay. You're restored When he returned to the man of god with all his company and came and stood before him

He said behold. I know that there is no god in all the earth, but israel Please take a present from your Servant now and he said as the lord lives before whom

I stand i'll take nothing and he urged him to take it But he refused. Oh, he said If not, please let your servant at least be given two mules load of earth interesting

Load of earth for your servant will no longer offer burnt offerings where you'll sacrifice other gods But to the lord this matter may the lord pardon your servant

When my master goes to the house of rimmon to worship there and he leans on my hand Uh, and I bow myself bow myself in the house of rimmon, uh when

I bow myself in the house of rimmon the lord Pardon, okay. Yep So what's this what's what's this about?

um, my point was that he had faith and wasn't born again because it was Like the holy spirit hadn't been given to everyone back then

So wouldn't that? What? Wait, wait, wait, who's the he?

and And believe what you have to be very specific Okay. Yeah Um name in the syrian

He's the one with leprosy who dipped in the river seven times. Yeah Okay And and what?

That he had faith But like, you know in reform theology, it says like you get regenerated first and then the then the faith comes

But nobody was regenerated back then and he had faith Um in reform theology the doctrine of salvation and justification

Regeneration precedes faith logically not temporally so there's also an issue in reform theology about whether or not

Salvation was actually possible in the old testament if it had to be done It could only be ratified once the blood of christ had been set

But it does say that a that abraham believed god is cleared in his righteousness. Genesis 15 6 7 so Uh, you're saying nathan was he believed many people believe the centurion in the new testament believed

Uh in god and and would believe in this stuff But you still have to trust in christ to be born again

And that's the context of being born again. You have to be born from above and from on earth So I don't see how this proves or disproves anything

Okay What were you gonna say about ephesians Um the same thing it says, uh, ephesians verse

Verse uh 1 13 to 14 ephesians 1 13

In him you also after listening to the message of the truth of the gospel of your salvation Having also believed you were sealed in him

With the holy spirit of promise who was given as a pledge of our inheritance with the views of redemption of god's own measure To the praise of his glory.

Okay So this refutes regeneration preceding faith seems to Do you think

Let me ask you do you think the regeneration proceeding faith is something like This happens and then a second or two or three or ten seconds later something else happens.

Is that what you think it is? Um, I I think it's that you have faith first and like, you know, and then

He called to god and he sends the holy spirit into you Okay, so then you could believe and then a minute later 10 seconds later you become regenerate.

Is that what it is? Uh, yeah, because like i've talked to Like friends of mine and stuff and like they they had somewhat of a faith before they're actually born again

But they told me the difference was like when they believed the resurrection and then boom then then they got regenerated and whatnot

Okay, let me explain what the reform perspective is because you're not understanding it. Okay We don't teach that regeneration precedes faith or faith procedure generation in a temporal sense

We don't teach it. We deny both of those in the temporal sense not the logical sense.

Let me explain the difference temporal priority would be an event occurs

And another event occurs is because of that say five seconds later It can be any length of time, but we'll just use five seconds.

That's temporal priority. So if I Flip the light switch on and electricity enters the light bulb then um

It's already there, but it just becomes active Then five seconds later the light comes up.

We would say that there's a temporal Priority electricity is there temporally for five seconds before the light comes on And now this is just an illustration, but that's what we would say or that's what temporal priority is

Logical priority is this That electricity is there And because it's there the light is also there, but they're simultaneous

They occur at the same time But logical priority means that the electricity has to be there in order for light to be there

Whenever you put the light switch on electricity is in that light bulb and light is also there they happen at the same time

But it's electricity. That's the cause of the light not the light. That's the cause of electricity. So we would say that Electricity is logically prior we reject temporal priority

But we affirm what's called logical priority So when a lot of times calvinists don't know how to illustrate stuff

They don't know their theology as well as they need to But this is what we mean by regeneration preceding faith that it's a logical priority not a temporal one.

All right That make sense Okay Can I show you something else let me show you something okay

Here are uh, these are my notes And this is my mine's on calvinism.

All right, so I have This is my document that I work on periodically it's 94 pages

And I can go through and I can click on different topics right here Like limited atonement defined it takes me right to it and stuff like that and total depravity

For example, I can go here and this is what total depravity says Man is completely touched and affected by sin and all that he is

In nature as he's completely fallen but he's not as bad as he could be That's I mean his actions not all murder, etc

Furthermore this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not of their own free sinful

Their own sinful free will excuse me choose to receive christ because their hearts are full of wickedness jeremiah 17 9

They're enslaved to sin romans 6 14 to 20 Cannot receive spiritual things 1 corinthians 2 14 are dead in their sins are by nature children of wrath are at enmity with god and can do

No good So they have the free will to choose but the free will Will choose to sin therefore they will freely choose to do what is contrary to god

No one's forcing them. They're freely doing that. See the calvinists don't deny free will You're free to do what they want

But we would have to say that god would have to regenerate us first In order for us to believe so watch regen.

I'll show you some verses regeneration precedes Okay Precedes faith and here's the illustration of the light bulb.

I already gave okay and because of this, um Let's see where the verses.

Oh, where does it go? I want a good different list Let's see if I can find this. Oh, it's up there.

So, uh But I know what i'll do i'll do this john 6 65 and just search for that so Just what jesus says

He says No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and will raise him up on the last day

Jesus says and he was saying for this reason. I have said to you that no one can come to me

Unless it's been granted him from the father. So here's a question we calvinists would ask If it's up to the person's sinful free will

And they just need the right information or whatever to come to christ and why does jesus say that no one

No one can come to him unless it's been granted to him from the father Because if it's someone's free will then why is that a true statement because it was up to their free will

Then god wouldn't have to grant it you see There's like another verse in in matthew 11 where it says, uh, uh

You've hid these things from the wise and reveal them underpaved even so father for so it seemed good and I say

All all things are delivered me and my father. No man knows the father So that one seems to I think about this stuff a lot that one seems it lines up that verse in in john

But then why would jesus say come to me all you that labor? And are heavy laden if it's only

Like if he doesn't allow Let me ask you Are you setting scripture against scripture?

uh I'm, just confused Okay, I don't really get it Okay. Okay. So you're you're seeing thing.

You're not setting scripture against scripture. You're not understanding how the things can relate Okay. Yeah okay, so We have specific sentences specific statements that are doctrinally precise

So and a certain woman named lydia from the city of thyatira seller of purple fabrics a worshiper of god was listening and the lord

Opened her heart to respond to things spoken in my palm So here we have an example of something.

We're going to go to those verses I'm going to ask you which one they were again, and we'll go to them. Take a look But see the lord opened her heart.

So could okay. The question is did the lord open her heart? Well, yeah Can the lord open the heart of anybody he wants to and the answer is yes.

Well, then why doesn't he have? Here's let me show you something else Okay, because all of this has to fit together and it's hard sometimes to make it all fit together um

And as soon as he was alone his followers along with the 12 began asking him the parables And he was saying to them to you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of god

But those who are on the outside get everything in parables So that while seeing they may see and not perceive and while hearing they may hear and not understand.

Otherwise They might return and be forgiven Amen. Yeah So jesus is speaking in such a way so people will not be saved he chooses

He chooses people not to save and he chooses people to save Because god opens the heart right and we could also go here

And then okay, so i'm just saying there's there's a group of scriptures. Okay, he opened their mind to understand the scriptures.

All right now You quote a verse let's go to one of those verses you quoted Give me one of the ones you an address that you quoted and i'll go to it.

I'll show you something Matthew 11, uh 27 Yeah, I love that verse

All things have been handed over to be my father. No one knows the son except the father Nor does anyone know the father except the son and anyone to whom the son wills to reveal him

This is also luke 11 22 so Hold on Okay Sorry to cut my throat

So he says now here's what's interesting is notice what's going on in the next verse come to me all who are weary and heavy laden

I'll give you a rest So we calvinists will look at this and go. Okay No one can come to the father

And uh, except the son and to anyone the son wills to reveal him. Wait a minute So you can't come to know god the father unless jesus reveals him

Okay And then jesus come to me all who are heavy laden. Wait a minute Why would he say come to me all who are heavy laden?

I'll give you rest. But then he says That the only one who can know the father is when he reveals to him

Yeah, now here's the thing. This is a problem here If you assume That come to me means they have what's called libertarian free will hey, anybody can choose

Anybody can choose it's just up to their their free will That's what they would be saying and then they would have a problem

But what if it was compatible as free will which means that our choices and our freedom is compatible with the predestination of god

Then we wouldn't have a problem We'd say come to me All the ones who come are the ones god has granted that they would come.

Well, then it makes sense Then we wouldn't have any conflict here, would we

You see it So what we calvinists do very often is approach the scriptures logically

What does it say? And how do we get this one? How do we do this? Let's let's work them together Not say we always do it, right?

But you know, that's the idea Yeah, you have any more questions Can you all see this the bible screen can you all see it everything work nicely is it big enough?

Yeah Okay, good Yeah Yeah Thanks, tony tebb, um, my other one is

Um do all calvinists like like it's uh what do you call it where every single thing is predetermined not just like like, you know me me going to the grocery store, it's like We call it

Yeah All things okay, which is his also We have obtained inheritance having been predestined according to his purpose who works all things after the counsel of his will

You going to the store you talking to me? Is included in all things that's worked after the counsel of his will we call it being biblical

Yeah, but let me answer tony. I'm not prepped up for preterism and stuff I got so much other stuff that um is down the road.

That would be down the road if if at all um Okay, so anyway see tony,

I mean lion Sorry, man Okay. So does god work all things after the counsel of his will?

Uh, yeah um, would you say that all things Like why why would like wouldn't that mean that uh, sorry a second a hard time.

Thank you. All right. That's all right Uh, um

Okay, let me like like yeah, like john calvin had some writings and saying like even like god causes people to To do stuff but like when why would god just want want people to not sin against him if he's like ordering stuff again, like Yeah, okay, let's watch this let's see if I can find this um uh

Let's see if I could send I should have these memorized It's in The anger of the lord

And and it motivated to number israel. That's right to number israel Okay, satan stood up against israel and moved david to number israel.

Okay, you see that? All right Yeah, also In second samuel 24 now again the anger of the lord

Burned The anger of the lord burned against israel and it incited david against them to say go number

Israel and judah. So wait a minute So look what it says here The anger of the lord burned against israel and it

Incited david against them israel to say go number israel and judah

This is what it says then satan stood up against israel and moved david to number israel So it's like satan was the anger of the lord

Satan was doing it the anger of the lord motivated him and look at this in verse 10 Now david's heart troubled him after he had numbered the people.

So david said to the lord I have sinned greatly in what i've done But now oh lord, please take away the iniquity of your servant for I have acted very foolishly now.

Wait a minute satan Moved against david to have him number it the anger of the lord moved against david

Against israel and david numbered it motivated him to number israel and yet dave was the one who sinned right

Yeah Now, let me explain something here We have what we i'm going to introduce some concepts here ultimate proximate and efficient

Causation. Okay So what we have here is this

So Thank you Ultimate causation god is the one who created israel

Right, he created the earth He created the land so god's the ultimate cause of David numbering israel the ultimate cause because nothing would exist if god ultimately hadn't created to be there

All right the proximate causation is Satan is there and we'll just stick with uh, what we'll do is we'll stick with um

This one with god, okay Now the anger Again, the anger of the lord burned against israel and it incited david against him.

So this Is what we would call the proximate cause All right Because it was the anger of the lord that was there that was existing

That if god had not let his anger be known or experienced Then that second level the proximate causation would not have been in effect

Proximate means it's next to the actual event It's proximate It's a proximate but it's proximate right next to it

The efficient cause was david himself doing the the numbering of israel He's the one who chose to do it.

He did it god didn't make him But the anger of god is approximate cause but god's not the one responsible for david's sin

It's like god god was the ultimate cause satan was the one and then david was the efficient one

Oh, we could say that god was more in the issue of second samuel 24 We could say that that we could say god was approximate.

We could also say, uh, if we go to uh, the other verse, uh first chronicles

What was it that satan is the one who's the that the pro is approximate cause depending which one so Another way of looking at is the garden of adam and eve

They sinned adam chose to sin He's the efficient cause he chose to sin.

The proximate cause is god. Let the devil come into the garden and And let him talk to eve let him do it

That's so those are the conditions that are right next to the efficient cause but god didn't make

The ain't the uh snake come in there. He let the snake come in or do what was natural to it

He could have stopped but he chose not to So ultimately god's responsible for the fall in the sense in the ultimate sense

He made the earth the universe the earth galaxy the garden The proximate cause could be said to be god's also because he

Let the serpent come into the garden and let them communicate But the efficient cause the actual cause of the sin is actually adam

Who disobeyed by his own free will? So we in reformed theology actually talk about ultimate proximate and efficient causation

It's not a a way just to confuse things and try and get out of something We think about these things we wonder because we're looking at the scriptures.

Well, what do we do with this? This is what the scripture says. How do we answer this? and we say well, you know how judas like Like judas by his own choice did that but it was actually kind of serving god's will exactly and that's the thing because i'm very glad you said that because You were absolutely correct god ordained

That judas do it But he's not the cause of judas doing it.

He could he ordained whichever shall come to pass because he ordained that Uh that for example judas did not have an aneurysm in his brain and die

Or the guy on the road who would have deflected. Uh judas from his path to go and meet jesus

Right god didn't allow that to occur So god is sovereign.

He ordains things but he can ordain something without being the direct cause People don't like that but I have to work with them step by step and they go

I see what you're saying And the theologians not just reformed theologians, but others have worked through these things said well, how do we deal with this?

What do we do? You know He lost he came back And so what we'll do is we'll say how does that work and we these are the questions that we ask

According to the scriptures as I show you scripture. Okay. How do we deal with this?

And these are some of the solutions we've come up with Okay Yeah That help.

Um Yeah Okay, there's there's that verse in acts 4 or 2 where it says.

Uh -huh Um The pre 412 I think it is the predetermined plan Yeah for truly in this city

They were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed both herod and pontius pilate along with the gentiles the peoples of israel to do

Whatever your hand and your purpose predestined to occur and then when you go to acts 2 23

Uh, it says this This man delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of god you

Nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death so we have it's a good example of proximate and efficient causation so You see ephesians

There you go Yes, it is. That's correct. God is sovereign over all things.

He works them. They they were the ones gathered by god Ultimately god's one responsible for gathering them ultimately god's one responsible for them coming against Jesus, but efficiently they're the ones who in their own choice of freedom decided to crucify christ

God didn't make him do it He didn't take his hand and put it on the hand of a of a jew and then take a hammer and put his hand in And make him do it.

That's not how it worked. It's still of his own free will And yet god is sovereign over those free will choices.

Okay, that That does help a lot Okay, that helps but it's not like that's that's a great way of putting it actually

Yeah Yeah, okay. All right Okay Anybody else?

Oh, let me get we don't need charlie's spine in here. He's such a loser Because he's my friend.

Um He's he's a good guy though. He has charlie's a good guy Actually charlie is the one who got me involved in apologetics.

A lot of people don't know that He read me the first quote that got me going so anybody else have any comments or questions i'm trying to unmute people unmute roger hopson and unmute little me

But I can't okay there roger got unmuted. Hey roger you want to ask any questions or anything you want to Uh, yeah, i'll ask you some questions.

Why not? Oh, but are you reformed not reformed or what just curious? Uh, I am reformed

Okay Okay, my question is this okay Let's say the gospel that paul was preaching and teaching

Let's say in romans paul You know pretty much believed in predestination god elects before the foundation of the world

Yeah And the son dies for the elect

Right and the holy spirit brings the elect to faith and grants faith and grants repentance yep, and everybody that jesus died for will be saved because Who's going to bring a charge against god's elect?

Yeah, and paul gives all the glory to god for granting salvation washing and regeneration

That brings people to faith amen that's That's the way

I take it Good Good. Okay. So if I come along and say

Okay, I see jesus died on the cross and he forgives the world's sins and Like the lutherans they believe that they have to do works and sacraments and I have to go

Grab that faith for myself And I believe and I do this. Is that a different gospel?

depends Because definition and we have to uh look more

Into what they mean Well, I went to a lutheran college and I i'm familiar with a lot of what they teach and Well, go ahead.

I listen to a lot of you know, dr. Cooper and all these other And they're gonna say that you know

The cross is universal. They'll go with all in the world and they'll always mean that as every single person's every single whip

Wait, wait, wait, wait, I understand. I I didn't couldn't follow your sentence. I have a hearing loss. So repeat that.

Okay They're gonna take the word all in world And they're gonna put that as jesus died for all as in every single person that ever lived.

Yeah, that's impossible Well, that's what you know, that's what you know, that's what they're gonna do but yeah, they haven't studied it enough exactly

And they're gonna say it's up to man his free will to accept this and apply this and if you don't it's your fault and and my question is

Is that what paul preached? No, it's not but uh, we do have to of our own free will receive

Because if we don't do it of our own free will then we're not the ones doing it We have to believe we freely do believe but we would say because he regenerated us and free list gave us that ability

But on the other hand, he grants that we believe flippin's 129 And our believing is the work of god.

John 6 28 29 If someone was going to say that they have to do anything any works

Uh in order to be saved then it's a false gospel Now, we know that justification is by faith alone in christ alone, and that's it

Nothing else not by sacraments not by baptism added to it because that would be a false gospel

So then we have to define we have to see what group and what people are saying what in what particular areas?

To see what they mean Yeah, I would take it as see the way I see that is that if If i've came to a lot of people, you know, i've talked a lot of people online.

I run a reform page. So you know, we get lots of comments of Well, I you know, like you were saying before is

I believed I did it It's up to me if I don't want to believe then it's up to me and I control this i'm in control of the seat

I'm the one That's going to save me and i'm the one that's not that's humanism. Yeah And they're going to say jesus did his part if you don't do yours then

You know, you're not going to be safe. Yeah, it's mormonism Jehovah's witnesses roman catholicism. Yeah pretty much

Every religion except, you know biblical christianity, right exactly right biblical christianity

And my thoughts have always been is like, you know, once you

Once you start reading through the bible and you you put all these things together where You know your predestined

God god grants faith. Jesus dies for the elect. So all their sins are forgiven and and the holy spirit brings people to faith

When all that happens you see the you see it from the the beginning of the bible to the end of the bible

It all makes sense. Yeah, I agree and when People, you know believe they they say

I think they say they believe they save yourself by They muster up the belief and they do these things

You know, they're ignorant I wouldn't say they're not saved but I'd say they're ignorant because they do have to believe what we reformed

Do is just analyze it to a deeper level Now one of the problems with doing this is we can become arrogant and start saying well

They don't believe that they don't have that really minutiae understanding. So therefore they're not saved. We can't do that yeah, i'm not i'm not i'm not applying that i'm just saying that and and the way

I see it is like, uh, I mean, I truly believe you can be an arminian and you know, because i've met a lot of people that are you know, they they you know

I mean i get in a lot of fights with the latent flowers and you know, how he is He's pretty much a pelagian and you know, he's who?

I like latent flowers. Oh, he's got problems. Yeah, he's got problem.

He's he's a pelagian Yeah, is he really a full pelagian or semi? well, he he he does not believe that Anything has to happen man in their natural flesh can actually believe

And the only but but his thing is is the power. Yeah. I've spanked him on that one

Yeah, his thing is that the power comes from hearing the gospel and that's what enables it's not like Absolutely, you know there's a

Yeah, but the problem is if someone's gonna see the power to come to the gospel That's romans 1 16 the gospel of god is the power of salvation.

That's true But it's is it the presentation of the word what happens in the person's heart and mind or is this saying that the person is?

Enabled somehow to go back to a neutral state of existence and they can believe or not believe Well, then if that's the case that I'd say show that to me from scripture

Which they can get out of the set they can out of second maranacles But you know But the other thing is why does one person's free will in that state enable them to believe another one does not weak

Calvinist can have can answer that question. They can't Well, I took him to colossians 2 14 and I said, you know, layton.

Oh, yeah, who would you take? Uh, nate layton And what'd he do? Well, he uh

He actually avoided the question all together And he brought up some more passages says well if you believe that then you believe that you're saved before You even believe he doesn't understand the issue

He's he's yeah, he does not understand. I I need to talk to him again. We need to have a discussion

Yeah, so yeah, he uh, he pretty much avoided the question and that and I still asked him a couple times before and he's

He's not got back to me You know, we've met actually we've talked

I don't know if I have a cell number or not But um, we need to talk some time About it and uh without a meeting

I guess Yeah, okay, so you got my side of the question of okay, where's this, you know, not the gospel where's you know

Where's that line? But my other question I do have his number the other side of that Is that you're going to get people like layton flowers and say yoda.

This is this is not biblical This is the doctor of devils. They're teaching you know You know, the reform gets a bad name, but a lot of times it's more of the vermilion side

That's pointing the finger saying you're evil. Your god doesn't you know because they're humanists.

Yes They're humanistic in their philosophy and uh, you know when

I talked to layton about uh, Philippians 1 29 which says he grants that we believe he goes no god grants the opportunity for us to believe

And I said that's not what it says. I said he grants that we believe no He grabs the opportunity to believe he you know had to alter the text to make it fit his theology

Well, so that's you know, well, I like I said i'll go back and forth with layton flowers and he's analogy king

He always brings up analogies to everything. Yeah never goes to the text but I was just curious on you know what you thought about what the gospel was and You know how that how that's applied because like I said

If you don't believe that, you know, there's an election and that god brings you to faith your idea is like That you can bring people to faith and you can not believe if you're a true believer and you know,

I mean it's just brings in all kinds of I see of errors of You know What the gospel is and what is being applied here?

There's a lot of problems Layton flowers is causing problems. It needs needs to stop. He's causing division in the body of christ.

It needs to stop Okay All right I was hoping some anti -calvinists would come in here and challenge, you know, the ones who are so vociferous and um pejorative

That they would come in And talk snot. I'd let him talk. We'd ask questions and have a dialogue

I'm not gonna be i'm not mean Just asking there's the link if anybody wants to join us in so little me

You want to ask a question? Hello Hey, how are you doing? Good. How are you?

Fine That's good. Um, I have a question about um covenant theology and okay.

I don't really know Like to like that. Well what it is Okay, covenant theology is the idea that the bible is covenantally

Arranged and that god works covenantally So the word in latin for covenant is testamentum

Old testament new testament old covenant new covenant and the blood of the eternal covenant in hebrews 13 20, which

I believe Is the inter -trinitarian communion to elect and to have the son be the one who redeems?

A covenant is a pact or an agreement between two or more parties So my wife and I made a covenant and here's the of marriage and here's my covenant sign my wedding ring right there

So covenants have signs and it turns out that the ten commandments Are arranged in a covenant pattern that was used in the third millennium bc over there and um

And I can get into it But the when you have covenants both parties have a copy of the covenant ten commandments and ten commandments two and two

And they're kept in the ark of the covenant, which is the possession of god and in the possession of man. So copies for both parties and um

There are different kinds of covenants. There's conditional covenants. There's non -conditional covenants Uh conditional covenant, for example my marriage

Uh till death do you part? So we're married until one of us dies and then the other one is no longer married

And so that's a conditional covenant Unconditional covenants would be that there's no condition on the covenant.

It'll always be that way And so we have that And now it's justified by faith as a covenantal requirement

But god grants that we have faith and as long as we have that faith It's forever, but some people might say well, it's conditioned on you having faith

Well, god grants that we have faith philippians 1 29 and he's never going to leave us or forsake us He was 13 five.

So therefore we're going to have eternal life and some other stuff So it's not conditioned on our faithfulness, but on his and so, uh there's different kinds of covenants and The old testament covenant ended at the death of christ the old testament covenant pattern type and and stuff

And it was the new covenant was ratified at the death of christ and as per romans Excuse me. Hebrews 8 13 and hebrews 9 15 through 16

At the death of christ the new covenant is instituted in the old covenant God had promised to abraham in you all the nations shall be blessed genesis 12 3

Paul quotes that in galatians 3 8 and calls that the gospel And in this he said here's what you have to do you have to leave this land

And you're going to have children and all the nations of the world be blessed in you. Excuse me And so the covenant promises of god included such things as the land protection

The messiah would come through let god be faithful And there are conditions on this that they had to the people of israel had to remain faithful And they're supposed to accept the messiah ultimately when he came

So this kind of a covenant had stipulations in it. But yeah, it's kind of a combo because god can never break his own covenant requirements but he put stipulations in and If we break the covenants, then we are the ones who incur the wrath

But god can never break a covenant because he can't ever break a covenant. He's just the way he is So he said that he would covenant with abraham to bless all the world

And that the ultimate manifestation of that was through the birth of the messiah And so the messiah did come and the world is blessed because of it

But in that the covenant requirements israel is supposed to supposed to accept the messiah

This is why jesus said I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of israel. Matthew 15 24

He was sent only to israel covenantally But israel rejected the covenant

Requirements and so we were grafted into that covenant faithfulness and then genesis 12 3

In you all the nations shall be blessed was ratified and and um and made an actuality, uh, so i'm just jumping around because Covenant is a big topic.

So covenant theology would say god works covenantally not dispensationally a dispensation is the

God works in periods of times different ways You know seven dispensations or three dispensations but That doesn't occur in scripture

But they will say you know during the garden It was the dispensation of god's grace and then during the old testament the dispensation of his law

And now it's the dispensation of redemption um, but It in my opinion.

These are just made -up categories to get a biblical number like seven and then they want to have them and uh,

And and it's not biblical But dispensations are based upon man's understanding of how god works, but they don't understand that he works the same way covenantally and by grace

Even the manifestation of the law which they'll sometimes say the dispensation of the law They don't understand that even the law of god is an act of grace upon us

And they'll say well, yeah, we recognize his grace, but we say it's the dispensation of law And it goes on and back and forth and I don't you know,

I don't buy into dispensationalism at all And I don't know if that helps or not, but it's a big topic and you can go to karma and you can look up Covenant theology and you can see categories and covenants and stuff like that So, um, so what's the difference between covenant theology and new covenant theology, ah,

I forgot I used to know New covenant has to do with a certain set of aspects a few more specifics

In a more narrow sense and I forgot which ones they were so off the top of my head. Don't remember

Okay, uh, um I have another question about the um, the ten commandments

Sure, so the ten commandments would that be considered under the covenant of moses? well

It was god's covenant with the people of israel And the covenant pattern back then was to say this is who

I am. This is what i've done And the covenant pattern back there starts with uh, i'm the lord your god

Brought you out of the land of egypt. This is how the ten commandments begin And you shall honor your mother and your father for he who does all bless who does not curse.

These are the The representatives of the conditions of the covenant uh along with they're called the stipulations with the rewards and punishments so a covenant of that pattern would open up with This is who

I am. This is what i've done Here's the requirements of the covenant for both parties And here's the rewards for keeping the covenants and the punishments for breaking the covenant

And those are in the ten commandments And uh, so it's a covenant that god instituted with man

So to call we could call it a mosaic covenant You know, it just depends how you want to call it because it was given to moses hence mosaic but it's really god's covenant with with uh, with with israel

So as christians we are not under the the obligation to follow the ten commandments That's right.

We're not obligated to follow them in order to keep ourselves saved or to become saved You see we have died with christ romans 6 6 romans 6 8 colossians 3 1 through 5

And romans 7 4 says that whoever's died is freed from the law And if there is no law, there is no imputation of sin.

Romans 5 13. Romans 4 15. I think all sorts of 13 and so We don't have

We'd have to follow the law But we do Because the law that we're supposed to follow is love god.

Another one is love your neighbor If we love god we love our neighbor we're going to accidentally fulfill all the ten commandments

But jesus is our rest math 11 28 You know come to me all who are heavy laden.

I will give you rest And so we will find our rest in him and we're in him.

So we don't have any law we have to keep but we Get to love god and love our neighbors because that's a change in our nature.

We made new creatures second corinthians 5 17 And so therefore we accidentally keep all the law I like to say

By loving god and loving your neighbor Okay yeah, that makes sense because i've been struggling a lot with like all the covenants and stuff because I've been running into like seventh day adventists and they're telling me that the ten commandments are god's moral law and that it'll go from You know,

I guess like beginning to end because it's it's his law his moral law yeah, and um

So ask him a question what's the honor and mother and father right it's gonna last forever, okay Does that mean if our mom and dad are with us in heaven?

We have to honor them in heaven do what they say Just curious. How's it work? Start asking specifics

And see what they say and uh They don't you know They don't really think these things through a lot plus the sabbath is the only commandment not reiterated in the new testament

But so the commandment of those 10 is not the only one not reiterated because jesus is our rest

Okay Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. So I just gotta ask questions a lot and Well, let's see if anybody else has anything they want to jump in and ask

Roger's in I just put the link in if anybody else wants to ask this is about reform theology

If anybody wants to ask questions if you're an anti -reform person come on up I'll treat everybody nicely just you know ask questions

And if you don't that's okay But go ahead ask another question and matt.

Can we? Can we talk seventh -day adventism your discussion last week with us? Some of the evidence showed what i've been trying to say for years people need to be warned of sdaism uh

Some sda are christian some are not but official sda theology is Is bad and i'm reading more up on it

What i'm doing now is I stopped working on sda to work on covet research

And then i'm gonna go back to sda finish up on the sda research Then i have to go back to eo eastern orthodoxy and do more research on them

Uh while i'm doing other stuff A lot of stuff i'm doing But we can talk sda to come up to the mic or have specific questions

But I would not consider the sda church if they believe official doctrine Uh to be christian, okay

Ah, you guys are close to an expert on sda come on in then Yeah, are you an sda person miles

I'm always open to be taught and to learn and be corrected even with documentation.

I love documentation Can we change god's mind not from eternity laura?

But temporally we can certainly appear to And it's called the now the not yet Um Yeah, that's what i've heard a lot of them rejected a lot of essential doctrines like the trinity and things like that so Um, could

I ask a question? I mean, it's not related to reform theology. Sure. Go ahead. It's about the um,

Like laws of logic and the impossibility of the contrary so So, how do we know the bible is true?

For identifying that our logic is sound, I guess In order everybody has to beg the question in order to assert believe anything

You have to assume certain things to be true by which you can then base a belief on So if you believe that logic is necessary for you to discern things you have to assume the validity of the laws of logic

If you believe that god exists and you want to prove that exists you got to assume his existence And everybody does this because you can't prove every single thing about every single thing you want to use

The question then becomes if everybody begs the question Which worldview can justify make sense of the begging of the question and only the christian worldview can?

Okay, could you could you give me an example of how an atheist can't um,

I guess justify begging a question or whatever He'll say well begging the question is is an issue of of logic

You're assuming the thing to be true. Okay on what justifies your assumption to begin with Well, that's just the way things are i've had atheists say well, it's just the way things are.

Oh, okay Well, then god just is because that's just the way things are. So if I use your logic, I refute you got something better Uh, well, you know, we just know that the laws of logic represent reality have you

Examined all of reality. No And so, how do you know they are just the way the reality is?

How do you know that there's and that's one thing question i'll say how is it that an abstraction can have an effect on the on the material

How is it that two plus two equals four? Which is logic properly represents actuality

What is it about math that represents physicalness? Correctly because math is not a physical thing.

It's an abstraction occurs in the mind So I ask all kinds of questions and they fall apart

They can't justify anything that they have because they don't have any basis for transcendentals

A transcendental is a truth statement abstraction or you want to call it that is universal applicable

Universally applicable, right? Well, how do you have a universal truth without a universal mind?

So what they do is they invent abstract entities These are just or propositions are just truth -bearing things.

Well, what is a truth bearer? Well, we don't know what it is. We just know what it is not So you invent this

No, they're real things. How do you know they're real things because we say so So they are doing a lot where they just guess a lot of stuff and um

It just takes practice a little bit of practice to start asking them to justify all the things that they say

And you'll find out that they can't Okay, hey Miles Oh, sorry, what's up, man?

Hey You're an expert on SDA are you SDA? I'm former

SDA Well, I'm sorry. What I'm former. I'm a former seven. I'm a former.

Oh Okay. How long were you a member of the SDA church? um for Close to 18 years.

My dad's a seven -day Adventist pastor. So I grew up I grew up in SDA schooling.

Um, I went to an SDA university even after I was converted with one of the reasons being to um, try and reach seventh

Adventist so that's what I was saying about Simon Horne about um

Seeing your discussion the other day. I've been trying to reach out to a number of other people like Apologia Church and Jeff Durbin I'm saying

I think you made a good caveat that it needs to be stated that if you affirm official seventh Adventist doctrine

Um, that's that's the issue. There's lots of genuine. Um saved seventh Adventist Um, but if they affirm what the seventh

Adventist church officially teaches, um, they're absolutely not christian, right? They don't believe the trinity

They believe tritheism And then obviously you've got all the historical errors with the history of Alan white and millerism and Primarily to the investigative judgment, which

I never really see people talk about But even if an Adventist doesn't mention or bring up the investigative judgment

They still have to deal with the fact that that has influenced almost all of their fundamental doctrines

So how old are you if I can ask? Uh 28 Okay Yeah, I'd like to uh, you know connect with you and discuss stuff because when

I get done my covid research I'm going to jump headlong into SDA stuff And last night I went to bed and I was reading a booklet on SDA because I multitask, you know

But I want to be able to get to the bottom of a lot of the SDA stuff I have a whole bunch of books on kindle on SDA.

I've got their stuff downloaded. I've got uh, a lot of their writings, uh got um

Let's see websites I should say For lng rights writing writings all kinds of stuff.

And so when I dig in I really dig in, you know Used to have 10 to 15 20 books open at a time.

Now I do everything in windows on my stuff So i'm looking for all kinds of documentation

And on the investigative judgment, which I i've always said is bad news And I I went

I was reading at the investigative judgment issue. I I actually talked to an SDA guy once I said look I read through this once and I got sidetracked.

I couldn't do it a second time I said I went through this once if what i'm understanding it to say is true

SDA can't be christian Flat out is what I told him and He goes well, maybe he didn't read it, right?

Maybe it's possible But what I was understanding of as the investigative judgment is that in 1844

Christ moved into the sanctuary in order to finish the atoning work and at the beginning of the investigative judgment

October 22nd was 1844 and that um, you will be judged for your salvation based on your works

Isn't that right? Correct. Correct. So It's interesting matt, this is a this is a big rabbit hole, um, which is why

I definitely like to talk because um, my dad has a almost all of ellen white's um library, so I spent a number of of years reading through um, all the source materials along with A number of other materials from people like dale ratslaff who is another

Well, I mean he's he's he was further in it than I was we're talking a faint Fifth generation seventh adventist pastor of 30 years in the church

Um was up at the highest level what was yeah, it was up that he he runs a former adventist fellowship

In california, he uh, he was at the general conference level so I actually have a quote here i'm reading from his book

Um where he goes through, uh, it's cultic doctrine of the seventh adventist an evangelical resource an appeal to seventh adventist leadership

Okay, let me go here i'm gonna check this out amazon .com. Oh, you got everything on kindle

I got it years ago. Was it called the cultic doctrine of seventh adventist by dale ratslaff?

I'm gonna read you It's only in paperback. Oh, no, no not paperback. Yeah. Yeah, I like I don't want paperback.

I got too many books as it is Uh, this thing this thing is a gold mine, dude All right, i'll have to get it darn

So i'm going to read you a quote but he this is the best this is the best systematic layout of This specific doctrine because you'll you'll start to see and ellen said this herself

She is the central pillar upon which the seventh adventist church, right? And there are a number my my own grandmother.

For example, we were discussing she lives in california She's an adventist. I heard her discussing with some of the last times out there

I just don't understand why we can't get rid of the investigative judgment doctrine Because she doesn't understand the fundamental level that the seventh adventist church would essentially be admitting it was a fraud

It was all a fraud. This whole thing is built on a fraud. So here's why so he's he's gonna

Well, he says as we evaluate what took place in early adventism. We note the changing nature of quote -unquote truth

So here here's the key. The first angel's message was the truth quote -unquote

That christ would come in 1843. That was the miller prophecy Miller prophecy was that christ was going to come in 1843

So that was the initial truth. So in the year of 1843 For 1844, which is the great disappointment, which most people know about with adventism that hadn't had a gift

They were saying that that was truth that 1843 was correct Really? So then the second angel's message was the call for the faithful to quote come out of babylon

The churches which rejected the date setting of the millerites This second message was preached simultaneously with the seven month movement, which which predicted that christ would come to the earth on october 22nd 1844 now using the same prophecies of daniel 814

Coupled with leviticus 16 the quote -unquote truth. Is that christ? instead of coming to this earth at the close of the 2300 day prophecy entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary for the first time

Here christ was was uh to quote complete the atonement Which was not complete at the cross and blot out sins, which were not blotted out at the point of repentance and faith

That's see if they could I can document that in an official sda source That's what

I need. That's the kind of thing. It was not finished at the cross Yep, I can show you that in ellen white's books over and over and over because That is the core of what it's built on they have to have the investigative judgment because in a nutshell without going into all of that When 1843 failed miller and others admitted miller at least humbled himself and said, okay,

I was wrong My interpretation that I was pulling for daniel 7 and my calculations here were off There were some people that refused

Ellen white was in that group, but it wasn't just ellen and james white. It was also hyrum edson

Which is a name that you don't often hear about unless you start doing research The investigative judgment initially came from hyrum edson.

It was the day after 1843 after the failure of 1843 Hi, or sorry.

Sorry. Sorry It was after it was october 23rd 1844 So the people that refused to accept miller was wrong in 1843

Ellen said we forgot to calculate for the fact that the year zero was there So we were probably a year off It will actually be 1844

We could talk about this because you know reading a lot of stuff, but um I am interested in checking this stuff out

Maybe what you could do is you can contact me at info at com .org. Give me your cell number maybe we can talk and we can get a a video or not a video, but a discussion going

And definitely show me where these documents are. You've already done a lot of the homework. That's exactly what I need

And so where does it say it I have to verify everything I have to verify everything so Yeah, I can give you a

I can give you a book page number citation Um, all that stuff and you and you can get all of ellen white's writings yourself through their app.

They're free, right? Yeah, instead of having to buy it all obviously you can get the egw app but yeah dangerous stuff man, it's uh

I also too like the the amount of things that are influenced by their By their pre -creation narrative that makes its way

So their whole idea is built around this idea that god is trying to vindicate his character

The devil lied about him and now he's trying to prove himself to his creation that he is who he says he is

And in order to do that your pledge and the commitment to the ten commandments Signifies that you're trusting in who god is and this whole thing

Well, the reason they say the devil rebelled is because ellen taught in desire of ages that in the pre -creation narrative

Jesus was elevated to be equal with the father that caused the devil to become jealous and that's why he rebelled because He thought it should have been him

This permeates all of their theology. That's the core of their vision Their idea is that god is trying to vindicate his character

And that in doing so the devil is the adversary and then you get into the whole sanctuary doctrine And this idea that jesus is actually okay judge and you're gonna have to see before.

I'll tell you what So what you need to uh, yeah, you need to contact me and we're gonna have to have a conversation because um

Yeah, i'd like to do that. Okay, and yeah Okay, what church you're going to now

Um, I go to a pca church pca Yeah, i'm or my wife and I are presbyterian.

Um, actually recent presbyterian converts. We were a reformed baptist um who Essentially saw the uh, the need to baptize their babies.

So Man i'm liking you even more Yeah, so yeah,

I remember yeah Do you know george grant by chance george who george grant no, okay

Yeah Okay, well, that's my pastor Yeah, I i'm not good with names i'm good with numbers but not names.

Yeah I'm looking for the uh pdf or something or downloadable for that, uh book

If I can't find what you say your email was matt Just info at carm .org Oh, okay.

That's easy. Yeah real easy all right yeah, because Is it the email address that you always say all the time that is like seven thousand emails?

Uh, no, that's not the one let's see info let me check which one's how much I got going Let's have it done it for a bit.

So in info I only have 23 Okay, and in matt at carm .org,

I have 12 686 and uh That's like a gmail

I only have 1552 There's a another one I have that's a private one. I don't give out to hardly anybody.

I have 277 in there Yeah, i've got a lot and uh

So, yeah Well, cool, i'll uh, yeah i'll shoot you an email and let's definitely set up a time to We can go over this stuff and we can go through if you'd like we can plan it out

We can go through some of the sources Yeah, I need sources. I always need sources. I always need the source because if I can we can go in the line, you know, this is where it is

And then what i'll do is I can write articles and use that information to go. Okay, here it is because you know

Sometimes I do all my own original research and sometimes most of it sometimes not a whole bunch

It just depends And this one i'm doing a little bit of both and people have got documents.

There's so much to read There's so much. So that's why I want everything in Kindle or electronic format

I could just do searches for words or word phrases and then I can just decide I can learn what they

Oh, okay instead of reading 600 pages You know, I just don't have time so yeah, um

Well, I I I mean in my situation Like I said, I I grew up in you know The seventh avenue church going to a seventh avenue doctor seventh avenue school seventh avenue friends seventh avenue does everything and so With with my dad being a seventh avenue pastor.

I had to um, I had to read the source material myself Try and show the source material alongside scripture and say hey look

Here's where these contradict here's where these don't want to so Um, yeah, there's there's a lot

So that's what I want to say you want to go over so because she she had a plethora of varieties

So, oh, yeah, i'm totally open to uh to going through a bunch of stuff So but i'm going to finish up my covet research and people are asking for that They're calling me in the radio show asking for more and more

On covet and so i'm having to do that as well Yeah Yeah, all right, yeah you contact me, okay

Cool All right Okay Look at this.

I like what Karm, m says there's not enough hours in the day So karm m is that your real name karm or you're just using karm?

Just curious. Yes 6500. Okay Let's see, uh, how's your relationship with your dad miles?

That's what he asked. Oh, yeah, good question My relationship with my dad is um great my dad's a bit of an anomaly

I know that we're not elect detectors, but um Obviously when you're able to spend this,

I mean we're talking six seven eight hour conversations. So Wow, really able to probe that deep into um things my dad will say one thing

Um, but then he'll say something else a second later. It's like well hold up that contradicts

We just said like he'll say it's by faith alone in christ alone But then we really start drilling down say 20 minutes later into something specific about the basic judgment, right?

There's something that said it's like oh Well, I mean, no, that's heresy man.

Like the scapegoat. Um, this is the oh that is heresy It's like oh man, so I I my relationship with my dad is good.

Um, But I still obviously continue to try and have those. Um more in -depth conversations

So a little over time Yeah, I can teach you some probably teach you some stuff about Other techniques out of reform theology that'll

It'll help too, but uh, you already know what you're doing in a lot of areas Good Karm, m that's her real name.

Apparently she worked with karm All right, anybody else want to come in and ask anything i'm going to quit at the top of the hour just so you know

Roger's still here miles is still here.

I'm serious info at karm .org email me contact me Type in as we speak Good So anybody let's see.

I assumed you did because of your name karm m I was gonna

I called karm. I don't know what to call it. I had to invent a website just because I I'll tell you how karm got started

Before the internet was here back in 93 94 I was on bulletin boards

And um, I have still have some of the documents. I just saw recently From those printed up On an old nine pin date dot matrix printer and uh

I said a lot of stuff and then uh The internet came out and it was a dial up on a phone and you know

You get in on a 13 inch monitor. It was oh wow. So anyway Excuse me.

So, um people started asking me questions, you know, i'd already been doing apologetics for years Well, here's a

I started having to retype my same answers out then I started keeping them in a file And uh, then

I had to cut and paste all these things. I thought you know what i've heard these things called web pages exist So, uh,

I wonder if I could make a web page just put the answers up and just say here Here there you go. That's that's all it was just just a temporary whatever

I could put and uh So, uh, that was the idea And uh, so I did and and if you want to see

Oh, man Uh, you want to see the early versions of carm

I think i'll show you because it's embarrassingly bad Uh, let's see. I'll put a url in here.

You can go check it out uh, it goes back to 98 Let's see if it has

The look and i'll if it does i'll put uh, this is on the way back machine I'll put a a link in you guys can go check it out because I designed it all myself

How to teach myself Oh, it's embarrassing here. It comes to teach myself how to do it all

I teach myself how to do html Upload ftp. I did learn all kinds of stuff.

And this is what I designed. This is what I came up with This is the first real version of carm

When it started this has been up a year or two already Uh or two or three I think at that point and uh,

I this is the earliest the way back machine goes back And uh, so I that was my one of the earliest it's like two years old

And you guys can check it out. And and uh, you can when you're done throwing up, uh, you can come back and mock it

But um anyway, so that's how carm got started and I was thinking about different names carm

I thought well, what about christian research apologetics people? But I thought the acronym wouldn't be good, you know christian research apologetics people, but that's not going to work

Our christian research apologetics ministry cram, I don't know crap or cram and I had some other ones and uh,

No, those aren't going to work. So I came up with this thing called carm Christian apologetics research, but that's good enough and that was it and registered it and there you go, so ask montero to ask to enter

Ask alexander ask to enter wait. Wait, let me uh, get the url back here if you want to come in here and blab

You got that uh ace christian research apologetics people um

Christian uh, was it christian research ultimate department? It was another one I was thinking about but uh, that didn't work out either so, uh, anyway had ideas but uh called it that carm is perfect.

Yeah carm is good and uh It's easy to remember So it's in october october 25th.

It will be uh 26 years old How about that and it's had 146 million visitors

I actually have Uh, it's a pretty accurate number. It's probably off i'd say maybe half a percent

It'll be had to get some early numbers. I did retro retroactively Go in years ago and extrapolate the rates and stuff like that and I did as accurately as I could

And uh, so right now, uh We've had 80 million

Return visitors. We've had 147 million new visitors And 227 million page views

How about that? So I keep graphs on everything

I used to teach advanced excel So I know how to do a lot of really cool things in excel and I have these nice all kind of nice stuff so All right.

Nobody has any comments or questions you want to ask then I was hoping these the anti -calvinist would come in and challenge me call me names and stuff

Yeah, they don't really show up too much Okay, so ace says maybe he could be persuaded about um

Continuationism. Okay here watch this Let's go here

All right, you ready? Watch this now

Paul called an apostle. Okay to the church of god at corinth

To those who've been sanctified in christ jesus by calling To all every place who call the name of the lord.

Jesus. So this is a universal address Grace to you and peace from god our father the lord.

Jesus christ I thank my god always concerning you for the grace of god, which was given to you in christ

Jesus that in everything you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge Even as a testimony concerning christ was confirmed in you

So that you are not lacking in any gift Charisma from the verb of the word charisma not lacking any charismatic gift awaiting eagerly the return revelation apocalypsis

Okay of jesus So the church is not to lack any charisma

Okay Hey, check this out for the wages of sin is death, but the free gift

Oh my goodness. What's that word right there? Look at that word charisma The free gift of god is eternal life in christ.

Jesus our lord. Oh my goodness. Look at that Right there Hey, that's a charismatic gift, isn't it eternal life?

Hey, how you going? Maybe those can help you out Let's see get this way.

There we go see Okay That's what I think is really an important verse right there that you not are not lacking any gift any charisma

Any gift that's the word right there Kharisma kharismati right there kharismati

Okay Thanks, man. I'll definitely show you these good and since you're open here.

Let me show you this too. Watch this Love never fails, but if there are gifts of prophecy, they'll be done away if there are tongues

They'll cease if there's knowledge. It'll be done away For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes

The partial will be done away people say The perfect is the bible Okay But I say it's the return of christ the teleos, okay the perfect the uh from the teleos completion

Maturity perfection. Okay when the perfect comes a partial will be done away When I was a child,

I used to speak as a child think as a child reason as a child when I became a man I did away with childish things

For now we see in a mirror dimly but then face to face

So the antecedent of the word then is here when the perfect comes Okay, then when the perfect comes

We'll see face to face Face to face is personal encounter That's how it's used in the bible

Now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as i've also been fully known

I can make the case very easy from scripture That to be known by god means you're saved

Get away from me. I never knew you john 7 and matthew 7 23 When you did not know god you served by nature those which are not gods

But now that you've come to know god or rather are known by him That's galatians 4 8 9 Jesus says in john 10 27 my sheep hear my voice and I know them

I give eternal life to them so The antecedent of then faced face to face.

I wish you would stop doing that Uh Refers back to when the perfect comes if the bible is completed.

Is that when we see face to face? If when jesus comes back, is that what we see face to face, of course

And that will be fully known Which is consistent With this first corinthians 1 7 you're not lacking any in any gift while you're waiting for the return of christ

You see Also check this out Let's say the charismatic gifts are all gone

Pursue earnestly spiritual gifts pneumaticots. Okay right there, especially that you may prophesy

I'm, sorry We can't have prophecy now because the charismatic gifts are no longer in effect. So We can't have prophecy, but the one who speaks in tongues.

I'm, sorry. You can't do that either Okay This be to god, but you know, etc when you prophesy no prophesying i'm, sorry this whole section of scripture

This doesn't apply to us anymore Uh, look what it says there. I wish I'd spoken tongues and now brothers speaking in tongues

I'm, sorry, you gotta we gotta get rid of this Revelation of a knowledge or prophecy or teaching. Okay, so these verses don't apply to the christian church today, do they?

And I can go on like this I have an article on one of my other websites, which is down for now

But uh where I ask a question I ask a question to cessationists what present -day

Christian teaching invalidates large portions of the new testament cessationism Go through 1 corinthians 14

And just cross out those things by with which um Salvation no longer applies.

I mean salvation no longer applies where i'm doing two things at once where um

The charismatic gifts no longer would be in place. In fact, let me see if I can get my uh, I can get that and i'll show it to you

Where i've done it Okay, well not there. So let me go over here.

I've got this information Let's see Recent sites. Here we go

Yes Got that open that uh, let's see gifts Whoops, not that one

Okay Okay Here we go. There we go. Now i'll do this

I think i'm gonna try this so This is one of the programs I have and I work on various things and i'll make this script bigger

I think I can do it by doing this and then Yeah Okay, does it go that big or it doesn't go that big.

Let's see So here if you can read that, okay Yeah So look

These are the where you could cross these out if cessationism is true No, I could cross out more but I wanted to illustrate well i'll address the close canon issue next

Okay, so you see there's first because 14 was looking at This is an illustration of what would happen if cessationism was true

Okay now so Paul was writing to the corinthians pursue the spiritual gifts

One speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to god he prophesies that we have interpretation speaks in a tongueless interprets

He's telling them to do this. Is this a threat to the canon? Not at all

He's telling them to do this stuff There's types of things that god does

That are for the canon and some that are not for the canon people make the mistake of saying well that threatens the canon

Well, how? Because everything they say would be inspired.

It had to belong in the canon who said Everything jesus said was inspired, but not everything is in the canon

Now he said there are things intended to be in the canon and things not so Well, how does the continuation of the gifts threaten the canon it doesn't

You see Yeah, it was still open at that point still not understanding So some people will say yeah.

Well when the canon was completed the charismatic gift stopped Well, then you have to show me from the scriptures if that's the case

And they can't I ask them show me the scriptures I wait and i'm still waiting

Yeah, you're right john. There's some problems So Show me where it says in the scriptures that when the canon is completed that the tongues prophecies knowledge healings will

End they're going to go to first quintet 13 8 through 12. That's the only place they can go

And then i'll show them the context And I can do that because let's see, where's this

Because check this out face -to -face here are all the references of face -to -face all of them

The term face -to -face and you know what they mean? I hope to see you soon and we will talk face -to -face

Right. I hope to visit you talk face -to -face. I paul who i'm timid when face -to -face with you, but bold went away

At genesis 30. Let's go here because it is I saw god face -to -face yet. My life was spared

So you see it's personal encounter When the perfect comes personal encounter

That's not the completion of the canon You see Okay All right, everybody

Hope that was entertaining I guess i'm going to take off now. Okay, go relax. I'm talking to my wife because It's about eight o 'clock

Any closing comments from anybody you want to type something in If people are giving new revelation through visions prophets or tongues, then shouldn't we take that authority from god no

Because if you read 1st Corinthians 14 is going to be tested And how would you know if it's from god

That's another thing the inspired writers were directly caused by christ and the spirit to write the scriptures

And if it is from god, of course, it's authoritative But how do you know if it's god you get tested with the scriptures?

Okay How can you join it next time uh

By getting the url here and coming on in. Okay Okay, everything must be compared to scripture.

That's right All right, everybody i'm gonna wind it up, okay Hope you guys enjoyed this

All right Anyway, god bless everyone I'm out of here