Oneness Pentecostalism with Simon Escobedo and Eddie Dalcour Pt.3

And good afternoon, this is not James White. This is Simon Escobedo filling in once again for James White. We have Given him the afternoon off now. I don't know that he would look at it about it that way but basically he has been gracious once again and has given up the big chair so that I as your guest host can sit in and Do another program on oneness theology.

So this afternoon we're going to tackle that subject again. And we've had an opportunity already of dealing with some specific issues With reference to that and we want to kind of close the book on that so that we can put together some things that I think would be very helpful for our resource category for those who are interested in the issue and Can access and so that's what we want to touch on this afternoon.

But before we get into a oneness theology, of course We're switching gears going in that direction because all week long our minds have been focused on Mormonism and of course here in the Valley of the Sun we have the annual Easter pageant that the Mormons put on over in Mesa and our ministry team has been out there for a little over a week now and several thousand Mormon folk who have passed through the Temple passageway there have had the fun experience of meeting those guys that just will not go away.

And of course, I am referring to the Alpha and Omega team, of course, not just the guys. We've had many many ladies out there as well. In fact, it was encouraging. I think it was midweek We had something like 15 to 17 young people who were out there and they were passing out tracks.

And of course, we've had the wonderful opportunity of getting into several discussions with some of the Mormon folk out there. And that's always a blessing of course setting up again I guess next week will have our team go out to the general conference in Salt Lake, Utah and again take up the task of talking with the Mormons, but let me let Rich come on and Tell us a little bit about what's been going on down in Mesa.

Of course today. I believe is the last of the The pageantry if you will that's right and our team will again be out there this evening. So once we're through with this program, of course We're gonna pick up our Book of Mormon and all the other materials that we need and attracts and rich.

We're back out to Mesa. Yeah, we're we've been out there all week. We were. We started Tuesday night and tonight is going to be the last night for this year's Easter pageant. This year we started off a little bit rough.

I had some interesting Altercations with the police and some of the other groups out there. Fortunately, we haven't received any Thing you might call harassment or anything like that. Yeah, they kind of left us alone.

I think it's been a smooth a smooth week for us and I've been in the print shop the last few weeks buried under a printing press. Trying to get as many tracks printed up for this occasion as possible as well as next week and it's it's been quite an endeavor and a lot of a lot of work goes into to making these things happen and you know, I I think about the the work out there and the importance that it it has for reaching out to folks who have been trapped in this false system and I think of a gentleman who came up to me last night and He will remain nameless but he is there in an official capacity and He came up to me last night and kind of the blue.

He says, you know, I'd like to talk to you I I you've been the friendliest to me out of anybody out here. And I just have a question and he began to share how he's had serious doubts about the LDS Church for a long time.

Really, but that.

Ultimately when it comes down to it He's holding tight to the Book of Mormon. Wanted to know why I reject the Book of Mormon and During the conversation it came out why he holds tight to the Book of Mormon and it really has nothing to do with theology.

It's a very emotional reason and it's a very understandable reason and that is that his entire family's in the LDS Church, right? And he has a deep strong desire for his family to be together in eternity and With the daughter that they lost two years ago.

Mm-hmm and in his mind all Hope of being if you will reunited with her in any way shape or form. If they leave the LDS Church all hope is lost, right? So we had an excellent conversation went on for about half an hour 45 minutes.

And I just I shared with him about the importance of truth and understanding truth I shared with him about I found it fascinating at the end of the conversation I shared with him about the one true God of Scripture and Who Jesus Christ really is and he looked at me and he said I believe that.

Mm-hmm, and he knew I we had talked about he knew that he was what he was saying. He knew he was saying I don't believe that God is a big man in heaven, right? I don't believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer.

He was telling me he believes in the Orthodox Scriptural God that that we know and love and I'm gonna talk to him some more tonight. Now. I'm gonna talk to him about that That daughter that he lost and and see if I can't reach out to him a little bit more and share with him the goodness and the mercy and the grace of Of the God that he doesn't know yet.

Hmm.

How many tracks do you think rich that we have passed out over the course of a little over a week?

I would say this year has been a really big Week of tracks, I would say we've probably put out a good.

Eight to ten thousand that is absolutely amazing especially when you consider the size of our ministry that we're having by God's grace that kind of an impact if you will and Certainly is something to be extremely thankful for and something that we have to look forward to here in a couple hours.

Yeah, absolutely, so we we're gonna be back out at tonight and Just ask the folks pray for us that God will will bring Appointments to us. Yes, and.

That he will bless our efforts. Absolutely. Absolutely. And of course, we are in deeply indebted to those who have prayed for us as a ministry. It is hard work as I was coming home last evening. I was talking to my children.

They were expressing how much they use the term fun. But I try to put a spiritual emphasis on the joy aspect of it. And that is that it is hard work to be out there. And of course, we've been out there every evening and some of them have not missed some of our team.

Have not missed a single night and when you're standing out there for a good old three and a half to maybe four hours. Passing out tracks dealing with rejection all evening being ridiculed mocked and so on and so forth.

That is a lot of hard work. And so we're just grateful that God has given us the opportunity of being used in this way and we look forward to concluding that this Evening but switching gears and getting into our topic for this afternoon here.

We are have been having been thinking about Mormonism all week now. We switch gears and once again delve into the issue of oneness theology and I have a special guest with me this afternoon to address this topic and I think.

Everyone in the chat room and perhaps dr. White listening across the way is going to be absolutely surprised. To hear the special guests that I have that wants to talk oneness theology. I have Harold camping with me this afternoon and Harold, why don't you go ahead and say a few words to our listening audience?

Thank you very much Simon for let me speak here.

Is that is that great or what? I mean we have a great opportunity Here of listening to one of the great champions of the faith. Mr. Harold camping. With us here at Alpha and Omega, of course, I'm being extremely ridiculous.

That is not Harold camping. That is Eddie Dalkour and Eddie Has joined us here this week in Phoenix to help out at the Easter pageant, and of course Those of you have had an opportunity of listening to the programs that we've already done on oneness.

Know that Eddie has joined me on this issue and Eddie is quite Experienced with this topic and since he was here we kind of lassoed him into being on the program. So he's here with me in the office and we're gonna have a little more fun Than in the past because we can actually look at one another make faces and those kinds of things.

But Eddie, why don't you go ahead and say a few words to our audience remind us again of the ministry that you present and.

Some things that you're doing. Well though Simon. I am a Thoroughly delighted to be here particularly because we're face to face before I was on a telephone Calling a from my room during the interview, but I'm delighted to be here face to face and it's just a joy to be here.

My ministry is Department of Christian Defense Www. Christian defense org. It is an apologetic ministry with the concentration on Mormonism Jehovah's Witnesses International Church of Christ and particularly on oneness theology Unitarian theology the folks that deny Everything about the Trinity and that is why I'm so passionate about my ministry.

I'm so passionate about given apologetics and arguments to defend and To communicate the doctrine of the Trinity because Simon when we're talking about the doctrine of the Trinity We are talking about the essence the heart we are talking about the nature of God himself and someone who Will attack that is attacking God is attacking the Christ that saved you and I.

Mm-hmm.

And of course that is why we find this such an issue of importance. And you know we were talking about this even last night Eddie when we were at the pageant. And You know Mormonism the Jehovah's Witnesses these groups. They're clearly Identifiable and distinct from Christianity.

The problem that we have with oneness theology Is that it is not an issue that at least right now is something that people want to face. In fact there were some Young apologist if you will representing another ministry that was out there talking with us.

And they were absolutely dismayed the fact that when they went into a bookstore to get some books on this issue They could find nothing. And of course The last time you were on the program and even the first time that you were here you said one of the reasons That you got into this issue is that you were just grieved over the fact that nobody wanted to address oneness theology.

I see this over and over and over in my travel Simon I talked to pastors and just layman Christian folks and one thing is clear what I found they do not by and large what I found do not understand the differences between oneness theology a unitarian construct of God and Trinitarian theology.

And when you approach the subject You will get a response of well. You know it's really semantics and God's grace is big enough. I hear this over and over around the globe, and it's disheartening because it's not an issue of words.

It is not an issue of semantics either. God is unitarian, and he's one person that pretends. He's manifestations or He's tripersonal. A cannot be non a. This is not a difference between my version of words and your versions of words.

This is a difference between exegesis and a.

Blatant.

Eisegetical way of forcing modalism into the text. Hmm. Well now let me ask you a question. You had said that. There are those that say God's grace is big enough. What do you mean by that?

Well, they'll assume as long as you use the Christian vocabulary and you say Christian terms Jesus is Lord. He died for my sins. I put my trust in him you're saved. Which is what the Mormons were saying all week to us and no witness to say that too, but um.

Clearly that is not the case right. Jesus said this is eternal life being the authority on eternal life. He says this is eternal life. To have ongoing present-tense knowledge of the true God and Jesus Christ.

That's eternal life. It is not just a heart feeling it's not a burning in your bosom. If that's the case you would find people in Maharishi Mahesh yogi and transcendental meditation. Say because they have peace they have feeling they have solace.

They will tell you their void is filled. So we are talking about the difference between knowledge of the true God and Knowledge of a God that cannot save as with non-christian constructs now.

Let me ask you this Eddie there. There's quite the effort by those who want to perhaps minimize this distinction between a unipersonal deity and the tripersonal God. They basically would say well. What are you actually suggesting?

Are you saying that for me to truly be saved I must have? exhaustive Comprehensive knowledge of the Trinity otherwise I have no chance. I'm sure you've heard that. Yeah, that's a good question.

I get that that frequently as well, and I would say I would point out the words of Christ since as Jesus Christ it defines Salvation he said in John 8 24 unless you believe and some you know the the meaning.

The strict Greek meaning of that participle pastille own Has the meaning not just of a heart feeling but a scent and knowledge as well as trust. Demons have knowledge of who Christ is. But to have knowledge ascent and trust it includes your apprehension of the God that you're worshiping.

And Yes, we cannot fully Fully comprehend intellectually the doctrine of Trinity, but we can apprehend that there's one God.

And.

The Father is God in Scripture the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet. There's a clear differentiation between the Father Son and Holy Spirit. Hence this is the doctrine of the Trinity. Now we can apprehend this we can apprehend that there's one God and Jesus is called God.

And the Holy Spirit is called God and the Father is called God and we can apprehend the clear as will demonstrate.

In a moment the clear distinctions laid out in Scripture right and of course as we go through that we never abandon What is our foundation upon which we build and that is the strictness of? Biblical Christian monotheism that is that there is only one God.

We're not saying within the one God there are three gods or within the one being there are three beings. And I also think it's very important. And I try to point this out to a onus individual that I was a dialoguing with all week Basically, and he never really got this, but when he kept using that argument about well Do you need do you mean to tell me that I have to comprehend all of this you know one being three persons?

And all this kind of thing and basically what I was telling him is I think he was confusing The mechanics of the Trinity with the revealed truth of the Trinity. We're not here to argue that any person can understand the mechanics of the Trinity that is the metaphysical Idea of a Tripersonal God okay, but that's not what we're talking about any more than we can understand the mechanics of the Incarnation or the eternality of God or any of these other things yet.

We don't reject those truths because we acknowledge them to be revealed truth in Scripture. So we need to clearly differentiate between the mechanics of a truth Such as the Trinity and the revealed data concerning the Trinity that is that there is one and only one God there are three distinct Persons and yet they are co-equal and co-eternal they share the one nation.

Yeah.

Absolutely, I have had people come up to me after I spoke on the Trinity, and they say well. You know what do you have to? Believe in the Trinity. And then my question is what are the other options if you assert if you believe that Jesus Christ is God.

What are your options. Well option number one is if you believe Jesus is God. Well was he a separate God? From God the father. Okay, that's tritheism. That's Mormon theology separate gods. Well the other option is if you really believe Jesus was the fullness of God.

The only other options that Jesus himself Was the very father which is modalism. So your only other option is trinitarian theology. And that's what we find if we draw out the meanings clearly stated in Scripture.

Right and you and I have gone around the horn on this and of course dr. White presents this in a really nice Diagram in his book the Forgotten Trinity which by the way let me take this note I don't mean to get into any kind of commercial type thing here.

But we do have some excellent reference resources here at Alpha and Omega ministries and of course dr. White's book the Forgotten Trinity while it is not specifically an apologetic towards modalism in particular it does define the very truths that we embrace as Christians and defines for us what we Know from Scripture concerning the Trinity and so it does deal with some of these issues and one of the things that I found Fascinating is his diagram in the book where if any of the three? Elements of truth that we just discussed that is that there is only one true God there are three distinct persons and they are co-equal and co-eternal.

If any of those are jettisoned or Abandoned it results in some kind of heresy and of course if you abandon Strict monotheism you end up with the Mormon theology if you abandon the fact that there are three distinct persons you end up with Oneness theology or more modalism, and if you abandon the fact that they are co-equal and co-eternal Then you wind up with subordination ism or arianism as is the case with the Watchtower and isn't a wonderful Eddie.

That as Christian people we don't have to abandon any of those truths. But we can take them together as they have been revealed in Scripture. Well, let's give you an opportunity then to provide for us a review of some things that we have already looked at in the last Two programs, but before we do Let me play this segment that we did play the last time, but I think it might help to kind of channel our thinking.

Let's see if the folks remember who this is.

Both of our questions will be doctrinal. Just are we understand if you basically deal with social issues, but one that could be doctrinal statement. My first question would be the Trinity would be defined as one.

God has revealed himself in three distinct persons each. Co-equal and co-eternal. How important is it for the believing Christian to have to hold to this belief?

I think it's very very significant that we that we first of all study the Trinity apart from Salvation and the first of all that we embrace Christ and come to him and come to know who he is. Having come to know who he is then we begin to deal with the Trinity which I believe is a very complex issue.

The Trinity. The term Trinity is not a biblical term. To begin with it's a theological description for something that is so beyond human comprehension That I'm not sure that we can totally hold God to a numerical system.

The Lord said behold or Israel the Lord that God is one and beside him. There is no other. When God got ready to make a man that looked like him. He didn't make three. He made one man. However, that one man had three parts.

He was body soul and spirit. We have one God, but he is father in creation son and redemption and Holy Spirit in regeneration. It's very important that we understand that. But I think that the first thing that every believer needs to do is to approach God by faith.

And then having approached him by faith then they need to sit up under good teaching so that they can begin to understand Who the God is that they have believed upon?

And of course Eddie we know well who that individual is that is none other than TD Jake's and of course We spent quite a bit of time. The last time we met which was on the 16th of this month playing some excerpts of TD Jake's one of the more high-profile personalities concerning the oneness position and.

You have some experience with that gentleman. Now, what would you have to say about some of the comments that he just made?

I think when I hear that that statement First it saddens me because I know Thousands upon thousands of men and women that sit up under this man and they absorb his teachings and He denies the very essence of Christ and as we'll see modalism denies the pre-existence of the Sun.

You cannot deny Jesus's eternality and Look in the face of Scripture and say I'm a Christian. I hold to Christian beliefs Jesus said unless you believe that I am Jehovah God you will die in your sins.

It is a prerequisite Believing in his eternality because there is no other Jesus that exists. And TD Jake's clearly denies That God exists as Three distinct co-equal Co-existent Co-eternal persons and he has demonstrated this in his interviews On videotape and in his teachings and I've talked to staff members Who will argue?

For his position his anti-distinction position you cannot deny Christ and claim Christianity and.

And.

It's it's a tragedy. How many people are up under him now now that we have played what Jake's has asserted? Basically that of course as he indicates the Trinity is really not something essential that needs to be believed in for salvation.

Give us in its place. Obviously, he's positing something and that being his Unitarian deity or unipersonal deity of oneness give us the basic construct of what oneness Theology is define that for us again.

Well the basic I'll call the basic syllogism of oneness theology simply this there is one God According to oneness theology. There is one God. But this one God is the father. Malachi 2 10. This one God is only the father that must be stressed.

Jesus however It's called God in the New Testament. Conclusion is Jesus is both the father and the son as well as the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the name of this Unipersonal God a one-person God, but this one person comes behind the stage father.

Sometimes he comes as son and Other times he comes as a Holy Spirit. So as David Bernard a prolific oneness writer says, you know When you have when you look at Scripture you have to decide When Jesus is speaking is he speaking as the father?

Or is he speaking as the son and that's our arduous task, but we will never know Which manifestation or role is speaking the God of oneness theology? And this has to be made very clear is not distinct in terms of personhood.

The father son and Holy Spirit are merely names or offices or modes of the unipersonal.

God. So neither of those three can be truly said to be his real identity.

No, that's another weak point of oneness theology. This is not true as to his essential nature these manifestations best because before Bethlehem there was just a solitary Monad a one-person God darkness all alone.

But because of his redemption plan he manifested into offices or roles father son Holy Spirit. So but these roles or these manifestations are not as his true nature will never know This true God of oneness theology because he does not reveal himself as in as to his true nature.

And if I remember correctly when we played the excerpt of last week from Jake's and he went into his spiel there with the whole narrative with Moses and and God defining himself as I am that I am he referred to God as a multiplicity of manifestations.

And then he provided some illustrations how God Became the manna how God became the tree and and as I kind of joked the last time kind of a Pocahontas Theology. Would you say that this is pretty much part and parcel of what most oneness or is that just?

TD Jake's in his own little hut there doing that kind of thing.

Oh get out. Appeal to David Bernard who is recognized as one of the more scholarly oneness writers. He makes the statement in essence Does God have to be limited to three manifestations. And of course as David Bernard points out in his book?

No, you know you Trinitarians only have God in in three. Well Why can't he be four or five. You know he he's asserting some blatant contradiction in Trinitarian theology right. However scripture clearly Reveals that Father Son and Holy Spirit are the three distinct persons.

Now.

I guess we can narrow this down then if we were going to differentiate between us as Christian people and those who hold the oneness position that unlike the Categories that they wish to present that is monotheism is what they're claiming.

Versus tritheism which is what they think we believe. Right. This is really an issue between tripersonality and Unipersonality and that is the clear differentiation between the two of us. Yeah their assumption their assumption.

Monotheism equals unipersonal is.

Their their main premise that they argue there from now Eddie last time we dealt with the common misrepresentations of the Trinity. And I would just remind our listeners particularly if you're in dialogue with those who constantly like to use all the various arguments that both the Jehovah's Witnesses The one this folk and perhaps even some of the Mormons as we heard out this week.

You know the constant well the Trinity began at Nicaea we heard that last night Eddie and both you and I about tossed up our Arby's sandwich. You know all these common misrepresentation. We dealt with those last week in it or the on the 16th program.

So I hope that our listeners can access that and use that for your information but there were a couple of things that we weren't able to to get to because of time and One in particular that I kind of want to to deal with before the break and that is Luke 10 20 through 21 and of course this was this has been a favorite of them.

I know I've been asked this several times. Dr.. White was also asked this question by Robert Sabin in their debate and again I would encourage those who are interested in this discussion to pick up the dr. White versus Robert Sabin debate on one is theology, but in that passage We have this statement at verse 21 at that very time he that is Christ rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit and Said I praise you Oh Father Lord of heaven and earth.

That you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants yes father for this way. For this way was well pleasing in your sight all things have been handed over to me by my father.

And no one knows who the son is Except the father and who the father is except the son and anyone to whom the son Wills to reveal him now Eddie allow me to play the devil's advocate here for a moment I'm a oneness person for the sake of argument.

I read this passage, and I say okay. Only the son knows the father that is the clearest of statements there and only the father Knows the son so if we're talking about three co eternal co equal persons and here We have seemingly a reference to this all knowledge of one or the other this reciprocal knowledge between the father and the son.

Then why is the Holy Spirit? Excluded from this element of knowledge of either knowing the father or the son well of course we can determine doctrine by the number of.

Places that the Holy Spirit is mentioned or is not mentioned we have to understand to that the Trinity teaches an ontological Relationship meaning that all three persons are equal as God, but it also teaches an economic relationship.

Though the three persons are equal The three persons have different functions. It was the son that died on the cross not the father. It was a son that assumed flesh and so on and so forth, but in this passage We you know we can cross-reference.

I think with John 6 We find it's the father who gives the son all that he desires and the son raises them up. And the son always does the will of the father so we see a a functional subordination ism functional father and son so clearly in this passage.

It's dealing with the ones that the father Gives to the son and the revealing of the father. There is no necessity for the Holy Spirit in terms of functionality, but I was assert at the same time in verse 21 Pagio pneuma is mentioned pneumatized mentioned you have the Holy Spirit.

Jesus rejoiced in The Holy Spirit, so I would assert. This is more of a Trinitarian passage for all three members are mentioned of.

Then a Unitarian or a modalistic passage in fact if I may draw your attention I know you listen to the Sabin white debate, and if I'm not mistaken in the cross-examination period when Dr.. White and Sabin were going over this passage.

I Remember Sabin of who of course appear to be using the King James Version Basically stated that the word holy that is the Holy Spirit was merely supplied by the translators kind of like When we read through our Nasby or whatever it is.

We're reading and we see those little words in italics that remind us, okay? This is a word that was not in the original text been provided by the translators. And he kind of loosely stated that so that those listening would think that the word holy has been inserted by Trinitarians, and I would just point out the fact that anybody who has a Greek text can take a look at that and See very clearly that we do have a textual variant here, and that is that hagio That which is cited by the majority text and obviously that would give reason to why it's in the King James Version and hence Robert Sabin was using it does have manuscript evidence and of course in the New American Standard of course it Does use the term Holy Spirit.

I don't have the NIV in front of me I would assume the same and you do have that there and of course looking at the na 27 clearly you have Several references to its validation for in the text and so I would just merely say that obviously Sabin was Incorrect this is not something that was offered by the translators.

But clearly it's a word that belongs in the text because it's theirs so we're not going to let him get away with that now I have been told that we need to break Eddie. So we will go ahead and take a quick break and be back here on the dividing line and discuss oneness theology a little bit.

More.

And we're back on the dividing line. This is Simon s the beetle filling in for dr. James White here with Eddie d 'Alcourt in the office. And we have been discussing oneness theology and I was told before we went to the break there that we have a Friendly caller on the line now.

I've heard much about this individual course James and I talking frequently and many of the trips that James has taken to Long Island and he comes back with all kinds of fun stories about Chris Arnson or as he is affectionately known Java man in the chat room.

And Mr.. Arnson, I know that you and I have shared a couple of words in the chat room. But we've never had the opportunity of actually being formally introduced since I've not made it out to Long Island.

But it is a pleasure to have an opportunity to speak with you, sir. Well. Thank you very much.

I'm looking forward to having the opportunity to meet you sometime. Well. I look forward to it of course. I've always.

Kidded James about tagging along in his luggage the next time he makes it out to a Long Island. I'm hoping to make my way out to the Florida area when he debates John Sanders. Yeah, I would love that and I think anybody that has had the opportunity of listening to James talk about you and You know basically telling us that as far as comedians are concerned you're the best and of course not only a great comedian, but a dear Christian friend and brother.

And We certainly appreciate what you've done for him and with him, and I look forward to that opportunity.

I appreciate that. Well sir. What did you have in mind this afternoon? Well, I was wondering if you folks ever heard of a a Church of Christ author named Alonzo Pribble. That's peas and Peter are I. B isn't boy.

B isn't boy le he has written a book. I don't know how much you're you're knowledgeable about the Church of Christ, but they have a minority of of People within that camp that are non-trinitarian. Christ has never been very fond of using non-biblical words.

So therefore there is a certain Leniency heretics that I trinitarian over the last hundred years or so since they've been on the scene, but anyway this book pulls got a unusual bent to Attacking the Trinity and I was wondering if you had ever heard of any other group espousing it.

Basically they would deny being either trinitarian or should I say Alonzo Pribble would deny being either trinitarian or Unitarian. He believes that God is purely the father only the father and always the father never never anything else and That Christ sure in that he was eternity past Without the aid of a mother and then physically born when he during after the incarnation.

So he was actually Christ was actually born twice. He was born once eternity past that is it actually a separate being not God or not a God. But just a.

Divine being so that would be similar to watchtower theology then.

Yeah, it seems to be. I'm not sure does the watchtower actually say Christ was was literally born of God in the eternity past.

I'm not sure yes, but he was uh his identity was not Jesus. It was Michael the Archangel. I can barely hear you guys. Oh his identity was Michael the Archangel. However Michael the Archangel is not eternal.

Michael the Archangel did emerge. But the watchtower does not indicate when Michael the Archangel as Christ emerged in eternity past.

Well, I know that I myself have not heard of that work. But Eddie being more read on the oneness issue and in particular I would imagine with the Church of Christ folk. Eddie have you heard of that book.