Critical Race Theory and The Church with Pastor Larry Ball

The New Book on Critical Race Theory and the Church

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. Once again, I'm your host, John Harris. We're going to talk a little bit today about a book called Critical Race Theory and the Church, which actually just came out.

I got one of my copies. I have two copies now, but I got one of them today and I noticed it was just released on Kindle by Larry Ball, who is a Presbyterian pastor in Kingsport, Tennessee at Bridwell Heights Presbyterian Church.

Before we get to that, though, I just wanted to make one quick announcement. This weekend, if you live in the Austin, Texas area, you're going to want to come out to the conference that I'm going to be at.

Actually, it's myself, it's A .D. Robles, it's Pastor Joel Webbin, and the easiest way probably to find it, because there is a sign up for it, it's free. You don't have to pay anything, but they do want to get somewhat of a headcount.

Probably the easiest way to do that is just to go to my website, worldviewconversation .com, and then you can go to the tab that says speaking. That'll take you to the list of all places I'll be in the next two weeks.

There is a website right there, rightresponseministries .com, and then it has the link events, free mini-conference. That's right outside of Austin in Taylor, Texas, March 12th, and it's in the afternoon.

Look forward to seeing you there. I will be preaching the next day in Georgetown, Texas, right outside of Austin at Covenant Bible Church. Some of you might come out for both, or if you can't make Saturday, then love to see you Sunday.

Then for those in the Nampa, Idaho area, right outside of Boise, March 18th and 19th, I'll be at the Rocky Mountain Biblical Worldview Conference, and March 20th, I'll be at the Truth Family Bible Church.

I just wanted to make everyone aware of that. If you live in Idaho, if you live in Texas, it's not like I get to those places very often. In fact, I just added April 8th, San Diego. You might want to check that out.

I'm going to a lot of different places, and some of these places do require an email or signing up. I just wanted to get through that order of business for everyone. With that, let's get into this book, because as you can see, it's pretty thin.

It's very basic, but it's, I think, really informative, and there's some things I really like about it. We have the author with us, Pastor Larry Ball. Pastor, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me.

Why Larry Ball Wrote a Short Book for the Man in the Pew

I'm just going to say real quick the things that I really like about this. Number one, it is short, and people's attention spans, as you pointed out in the introduction, are very short today. Most people don't want to go read Robin DiAngelo or, for that matter, more academic works like Derrick Bell to try to figure out what critical race theory is.

They just want to know, just like give me the in a nutshell concept, and that's kind of what you do. You don't go into all the scholarly stuff. It's not an academic work, necessarily. It's very much from the heart of a pastor, and you just give kind of in a nutshell.

You break down the complex, make it simple. Here's the definition, and then here's what the Bible says, so I appreciate that about it. The other thing I appreciate is that you don't shy away from taking to task really all the aspects of critical race theory that are concerning, or at least most of them, I'd say, and ones that specifically, I'm saying, are left unmentioned or those who are against critical race theory seem to want to agree with, like race being a social construct.

You have a whole section kind of tearing that idea apart, so I appreciate that as well, and on an up note, so I just want to ask you first, what inspired you with all the other books out there on this, right, that are being written?

Why did you feel compelled to write this?

Well, there's several good books out there, and I've read probably three, four, five different ones. I read your book. I read Bodie Bachman on fault lines, and I read a little book called, this has been at least a year ago, Social Justice and its Dangers by Doug Enoch, very, very small, much smaller than my book, and they're all very good.

I think they're detailed, and they give a background on what's happening with different people in the movement and how they're shifting, and I felt like that there was, number two things, there was something that was needed for the man in the pew, which as a pastor, I feel like that's where my strength is, is taking, reading the books that other people don't read, and then taking that information to them, and also coming from a conservative Presbyterian background, you might say Calvinist before and so forth, being raised in the, after, well, sitting under men like Dr. Van Teel at Westminster Seminary and being a follower, a reader of R .J. Rushdooney, I just felt like there were some missing links, some things that should be said that weren't being said, and so those are two reasons, but, and I would really mention a third, which might seem unusual, is that I have nine grandchildren, and I really believe that one of the most important things I can do in terms of what I believe is the covenant responsibility is leave a legacy for my children and my grandchildren, that when I'm gone, they can pick up these books and read them and say, that was my dad, or that was my grandfather, or that was my great-grandfather, and so I'm really writing as much to my children and my grandchildren, and hopefully my great-grandchildren, as much as I am simply trying.

To have an impact in the church. I don't know if I misheard what you just said, that's great. Did you say you sat under Cornelius Van Teel? Yes, I was at Westminster Seminary, 1969. I was doing the math in my head, and I was like that, because John MacArthur, I think, had talked about that, he had seen, you know, him lecture, and, but that's pretty amazing, to be honest with you.

Wow, that's cool. Yeah, I sat under Dr. Van Teel, and, of course, we had, actually, John Murray was retired, but he came back to the seminary while I was there and gave some lectures, and I was able to meet him and to listen to him speak.

I was a freshman that year, and someone asked me what I thought after his lecture, and my response was, well, to be honest, I didn't understand a word he said. At that point in my life, I was just a beginner, and Dr. Van Teel used to divide his classes into two types he called the bunnies and the giraffes.

There were giraffes who had studied theology at places like Harvard and Oxford and Yale and so forth, and then there were men like me coming from Appalachia who really knew very little. He considered a bunny, and, but after sitting under him for a year, having majored in mathematics in college, I was very drawn to his presuppositional type of apologetics, and so, yes, I did have the sitting under him, and also, Jay Adams was there when I was there as a teacher, and later on, I was too.

Greg Bonson was a student there when I was there, so it was quite a.

Quite an unusual time. Yeah, I wonder if they were around today, I wonder what they would think of everything that's happening, I'm sure. Yeah, I mean, maybe they'd say I told you so on some things. Yeah.

Equality, the Trinity, and the Fall

Well, I marked down a few things in the book that I thought would be just fun and just informative to ask you about. So, let's see, you talk about, you really spend some time talking about inequity and equality.

You do a pretty good job explaining equality before the law versus egalitarian equality, but you don't, I don't even know if you use the word egalitarian, you're, you really, this is written for the common man, and so you really just explain the bad kind of equality, and the first thing you cite, and I've thought this before, I've never seen anyone write it down, but I've had this thought so many times when Satan tries to tempt you and say you'll be like God, and I've thought before, I'm like, was that the first, like, is that where this all really traces back to ultimately this, this egalitarian, let's flatline everything, and it's just a way to bring man up to the, because now we're choosing our own genders, right, where we're tampering with creation, we think, I mean, what do you think, is that the first social justice warrior, Satan, or?

Definitely so. I really believe that. I think that was, as I say in the book, that was an attempt to be equal with God, and so that, and equality, as I explain in the book, is not always sinful, because in the Trinity, there is equality, and, but I think the, in the garden, there was the attempt to, to be equal with God, and I think that's basically where it all began, and there's a such a thing that I mentioned in the book as inequality, which is, which is a good thing, diversity.

In the Trinity, there is diversity in the, the jobs or the functions that they have, and so you, in the Trinity, you have both equality and inequality, and they're both a good thing in that, in that context, and I think probably that kind of thinking, and I felt like I needed to go back to the Trinity and creation, but that kind of thinking probably comes out of Dr. Van Teel, and also probably out of Dr. Rush Dooney, who wrote a book on the one and the many, I think, and tried to show how there is diversity, and there's unity, and, and that's kind of the most theological part of the book, in a way, right, that I'm trying to go back to the very source of the whole equality movement, and show how it finds its origins, in a good sense, in, in the, in the Trinity, but it, in a bad sense, in the fall, in the Garden of Eden.

Yeah, it's very much against design, the created order, even natural relationships, wants to remake things, and, and often go now, especially to forbidden territory that God has not ordained. You, on that note, you kind of, you do something that's actually forbidden in today's, you couldn't, like, have an academic press ever publish something like this, but you try to redeem white privilege, in a way, or maybe better put, you, you ground white privilege in something different.

White Privilege, Providence, and Western Civilization

Would you explain that to everyone? Because that, that perked, my ears perked up when I saw that, because I was like, oh, wow, you know, usually you hear people, they're arguing against, there is no white privilege or something, but you're like, yeah, there is, but it's not attributed to what critical race theorists are attributing it to.

Right. I think that may be a little unique with my book, because usually every time you hear white privilege in the anti-critical race theory camp, usually it's understood in a negative way, but I think just looking at history, and there is such a thing as white privilege.

I have no problem with that. And again, studying, studying history, we, we go back to the founding of our country, uh, was basically founded by, um, uh, Englishmen, um, and, uh, who spoke English, uh, who had been very educated in England.

Um, and it even goes back before the foundation of the country. And I, I say that in the book, it goes back to, uh, to Europe. Uh, and I asked the question, why, why was Europe so much more advanced than other continents, for example, Africa or even Asia?

And, and that's, I explained that in the book, I always have to get to the root of issues. I'm not, I get that from my mathematics training in college. I'm always asking why, you know, where does this come from?

And, uh, when you study history, you just, or study Western history or history since the fall, I guess that you see that, um, God providentially, uh, blessed, uh, Europe, uh, even, um, from, uh, early times, I would say even, even into the, from the dark ages on, uh, and then the question is why.

And, um, as a Presbyterian, I have to go back to the old explanation of why is predestination something, uh, we believe in and it's, uh, God predestined us and, uh, providentially brings things about, not because he sees some people are better than other people.

We're all equally sinners before God. And that includes nations. I would make that trying to make that point in the book. Um, and so God had grace on Europe, uh, and, um, for no other reason because he chose to do so.

Uh, that's the old reformed answer to why did God choose some and not others? And the, uh, the answer is, well, uh, he, he shouldn't have chosen anybody, but that he did choose to, uh, follow through Europe and give them, uh, the blessing that they had in education and culture and eventually in all the other areas.

Uh, it can only be seen as something by the grace of God and not because any people is any better than anybody else. And so that history brings about white privilege, uh, which, uh, whites as they, the white nations, uh, as they came to America came as very educated and very often very godly people.

And that did not happen with other continents.

And so there is white privilege in my opinion. Yeah. It's an interesting, uh, concept because number one, it'll get you canceled did probably say that. Uh, but there's, um, there's some truth. I think it's just an obvious truth to most people that Europe was technologically more advanced during the age of exploration.

They had, uh, in many ways, a higher civilization, as far as, you know, their developments in music and in, uh, manners and, you know, propriety, just there, there's a lot of other probably things that could be pointed to architecture, just they had a civilization that was more advanced.

Right. And, and so if, if you follow what happened from the Roman empire forward as Christianity, you know, Paul's missionary journeys were in Europe, right. Christianity is dominating, uh, it dominated in Europe, uh, that you identify that as the, uh, relevant fact that contributed to this.

And so you're not, this is the thing that people need to hear loud and clear is that you're not saying that there's some kind of genetic determinism, something about white people, that superiority, not even close.

What you're saying is that blessed as a nation is God is the Lord. And for centuries, Europeans in general followed principles that would be more in keeping with the book of Proverbs. They had a respect for, uh, God in some way.

And, um, and that may be changing now and it is changing quite a bit, but, but that this did bless the people who were, who inherited that tradition and, uh, the wealth that was stored up and all the rest of it.

So, uh, I mean, I don't know how you really argue with that, but, um, I know that the way that critical race here is when they talk about white privilege, they talk about it as something that is uniquely given to white people.

It can't, it's not like what you're saying, where this could be anyone could, you know, become a Christian and practice biblical principles. You know, they, they think it's, is like unique to only people with, uh, who are white.

And, uh, and, and they of course see it as the result of, of thievery and stealing manipulation, oppression. Um, and so I, I just, you know, I, I have to still think about that a little bit, you know, like how, how rhetorically effective is that, but I can see that being in a debate or something where you have white privilege saying, yeah, but you know, it's only the grace of God that, you know, or, you know, my, I was raised in a family that, you know, honored Christ and we have a heritage going back, you know, and not all white people have that obviously, but it's an interesting.

Yeah. So, um, so that's one of the things I thought was kind of unique about your take on this. Uh, one of the things that, uh, it really makes your book unique is, and I'll just quote from you. Uh, you say, I've become convinced that sometimes good men get it wrong.

And you're talking about other books you've written on or read on this topic. And you're, you say that, um, it seems rather contradictory to me to assert that the concept of race is not real, but then to turn around and use the term race to describe all of the descendants of Adam.

Race, Nations, and the Tower of Babel

Could you parse that out for us? What do you mean by, you know, when you say that when you argue that race is real, uh, you know, what, what, what is a race? Um, why is that important to challenge critical race theory when they say race is just a social construct?

Yeah, well, I'm making an attempt in the book to, um, define race as the Bible defines it, at least as far as I can understand. And, uh, the old Testament is full of promises to the races or to the nations.

And, um, I'm pretty much, you can't always identify a nation with a race, but typically in history, you could fairly well do that. And, um, so I just decided one day in a sense, just go through the scriptures and trace the word nation.

Of course, the word race does not appear in any English translation. And so it's not even a biblical term. It's a term we've kind of created, uh, evidently through some, maybe Darwinism or something like that.

But, um, uh, I decided just to go through the scriptures and look at the concept of nation itself. And I, as I say in my book, there are basically three identities to a nation. One is a common language, a common border, and what I would call common religion or a common God, which determines the culture of that nation.

It's, it's beliefs in regard to right and wrong. And so, uh, there are nations, uh, in the scriptures, um, and the idea of race in, in a sense, I've just developed that as, uh, from, uh, the Genesis chapter 11, where, um, God created the different nations and all I can, and I don't know that anybody understands the origin of the physical characteristics that differ nations.

All I can conclude is that there were genetic changes over time. Uh, but, um, uh, it's fairly easy to, um, equate nation and race, uh, to a great degree. I think America is not used to that kind of a concept.

We use the word ethnicity now because, and I think that's kind of a invented word, but typically in the past, when you speak of, um, the French or the Japanese, or, um, even the Russians, uh,.

You can't talk about them right now, not the Russians. I'm just kidding.

You tend to think of a particular race as well as a nation. Uh, and that's not always true, but, um, uh, very often they're very similar, at least, uh, um, and that's where I talk about Ethiopian unique in the Bible, and he was identified by the color of his skin and also by his, um, uh, the place of his, uh, of his origin, you might say, um, which was Kush, which had a border and had a language and had a God.

And so, uh, if there is no such thing as nations, then, um, much of the prophecy in the Old Testament, and then even the Gentiles, uh, being brought into the gospel, uh, loses its power and its greatness because God calls all the nations, in a sense, uh, to himself or will.

Uh, being a post-millennialist, I believe that that will happen before, uh, the second coming of Christ, that all the nations, not that everybody in the nation will be Christian, but the nations will, uh, have an identity, and there's another word we, we use today, but, uh, uh, we'll have a, um, a connection, uh, with, uh, the lordship of Christ, and we'll see to implement the laws of God in, in society.

Uh, so, uh, those, those promises are just so deep as you read the Psalms, especially, uh, you just continually see God talking about how he was going to bring the, uh, gospel to all the nations, and, and so that,.

To me, would include races as well as nations. You know, in, um, in Revelation, when it talks about all the, the tribes tongue nations before the throne worshiping, and they're all, uh, they have unique, uh, characteristics that would, you know, be able, you'd be able to identify them according to those categories, oftentimes a social justice crowd uses that.

Some, you know, weird to me, but they use that verse as if it's a point in their corner, like, uh, this is, you know, why we ought to diversify our churches somehow, or have some kind of a social justice program to diversify elder boards or theological libraries, whatever, and, um, what I see, though, in that passage is more along the lines of what you're saying, that there's going to be some acknowledgement, uh, it's, it, for whatever reason, to God, this is something that seems to be important or, uh, distinct.

He wants to categorize people out according to this, and then it gives him glory that the diversity of the people that, that are before his throne, so it's not a matter of, um, uh, on this, in this temporal world, trying to achieve some kind of a quota at your church or your denomination so that you can reflect what the church in heaven looks like, and then, and then turn around and say race is just a social construct, but, you know, it doesn't matter, minimize it so much, but actually, uh, this would make, make it, as you said, identity, I think this, this makes that identity important to people, and, and it, it's one of the things that defines who we are, uh, and, and so with that, and I'm getting to the question, but I was, uh, last Sunday, right, I go to a very diverse church, ethnically speaking, and it's not because they tried to do it that way, it's just they preach the gospel, the people in the area showed up, it's a diverse area, and I went out to lunch with some folks after church, we had, um, some folks that Japanese, Japanese-German, uh, you know, myself and my wife, so, you know, you have your Scottish, your German, your Eastern, uh, European represented in that, you, we had a guy who was half black, half white, a guy who was black, you know, that's, that's the church I go to, those are the people I'm with, and, you know, I don't, it's not like, um, that's, that's something that's a barrier to any kind of fellowship, it's not, but it's also something that I'm like, I don't think we have to pretend like, you know, my, my friend who's Japanese, right, is not Japanese, like, it's just like, he is, and his culture, he has a culture that's, uh, that, that's important to him, things that are important to him aren't as important to me, and vice versa, and that makes us who we are, and it makes it fun, it makes it unique, and, and I like that, I, I think that there's some diversity that we can appreciate in that.

Why do you think, though, the way that I think I feel, and probably the way you feel about this, why do you think that becomes such, like, a hot-button issue, like, to even, to even say that there's more than one race, you know, the human, human race, which there is, you know, in one sense, one race, human race, but to even say that God has separated people, uh, through the Tower of Babel, that there's different kind of people, that, you know, we, I don't know, I, I, there's just this that I get, that people are, they really want to shoot for this, like, kind of, uh, none of that stuff exists, it's, you know, minimizing it so much that, and they're afraid if they say it, it's almost like they're, they're racist or something.

I, I don't get why that is.

The case, but it seems like it is. Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think that part of that is because individualism has become more important than corporateness, and maybe that's a Baptist, Presbyterian balance there, but, uh, I think in America, it's, it's, it's individualism has become kind of the, uh, the idol, and the idea of corporate, which includes family, uh, nations, and, and race, um, has become kind of secondary, so it's really, it's, it's, it's like, you know, baptism, for example, in generally, when a Baptist looks at baptism, they see individuals who make a public profession of faith, but a Presbyterian will see not only the individual, but he will see the family of the individual.

He will look at the corporate group, uh, even as, maybe as much or before he looks at the individual himself, so it's kind of a, uh, an American individualistic spirit has conquered this nation, and we think in terms of, of, um, pieces instead of, uh, instead of the fruit side, you know, we're the melting pot, and so we try to deny the existence of, um, of groups, uh, group that somehow become rather, um, an unspiritual, uh, thing, uh, and so, um, theologically, I would see it as an individualism versus a corporate perspective, and America is the, is the great experiment in individualism, uh, and historically, though, uh, in history, uh, nations and corporate groups, uh, were, uh, as important, if not more important, uh, than individuals, uh, you know, you, when we, we want to conquer Britain for Christ, for example, well, oh, that's not something we talk about much.

Anymore, or we want to conquer Africa for Christ. I remember hearing that as a kid when I go to, even a youth rally, they would say, they would say a country like we're, and they would say exactly what you're saying.

I don't hear it anymore. You're right. I never thought of that.

Yeah, and, you know, America is, as I said, uh, pretty much an individualistic nation. You, we're all independent, separate entities, and we've lost the concept of community, and, and as I mentioned, and that's one reason I was drawn into the reform Presbyterian position was because, uh, in my own experience with my own family, for example, um, all my children are in church, all my grandchildren are in good Bible-believing churches, and I, I see not only my own conversion, but I see that the impact I have on, uh, generations to come, I see the group, I see the family, and so I think we, we're so overwhelmed by this individualism that we have to almost negate anything that speaks of a corporate nature, which includes race, and which it would include nation, and America is proud of its being a melting pot of all nations, and so we, we become a multitude of individuals that's held together by democracy, for example, and not by our heritage or our genetics, and I think there is such a, I think it was a theological issue at root.

It's individualism versus corporate perspective, and, um, I think America, as one man wrote, and I'm not degrading Baptists, I have many friends who are good Baptists, but we live in kind of the American Baptist culture where we, we do, even evangelism is individualistic, and it is individualistic, but our goal was to capture whole families, and that's strange to modern evangelists.

Yeah, yeah, even, even the way we think about evangelism is determined by individual versus corporate nature, and, uh, I think that's, theologically, that's the background of why we're, uh, we, we think that all nations should be together in one church building, and I've been in churches, too, where we had Hispanics and Blacks and Whites, and, and we all got along just fine.

There was no problem whatsoever. There was no tension. There was, this was before critical race theory, and I have no problem with that, but, um, I just think, theologically, we, we, it's almost become sinful to move outside of the realm or the format of, uh, the form of individualism.

Yeah. You understand what I mean?

Yeah, well, we, I mean, we have a Korean church down the street, you know, and, um, you know, I think they have, I think they have a service that is in Korean, and then another one, I think, may, might be in English, but there's a cultural and a family connection that people have that go there, and I know, you know, there's no, I'm not thinking like, oh, they're, you know, they probably would welcome me if I showed up, but you, you know, I don't have a problem with, with that happening, um, at all.

I don't think there's a sinful, um, it's just people who tend to share a lot of things in common, similarities as far as their culture and manners, habits, language, all of that. They, they tend to associate with one another.

It's always been that way, um, but we, but what you said, it just made me think of, you know, we've gone kind of from a neighborhood, you know, someone who lives in the neighborhood to community, right, to now development, you know, you just, someone in the development, and it seems like that, um, even those terms show that there is a lack of, uh, that corporate nature, and the woke have, in my mind, they have seen an opportunity here or to, because, because humans are naturally, we're not made to be lone rangers.

We, we need to be, um, we have, we need support, emotional support, spiritual support. We need to be part of a group and have a place of belonging. And so they've kind of crafted this, uh, critical race theory being one of these things, the identity politics, and the idea that race is a social construct, though it destroys the cultural elements.

Really? There's really, it's not like you're not saying that your race is, is a, uh, is attached, or there's a connection to a culture that is rich, that confers identity. It's more of, you have a power, like a level at which you sit in a spectrum and, you know, you, other people who are just as oppressed as you share something in common with you.

So it's like, it's, it's really one of the most flimsy, uh, glues to make a community. If you're trying to build that to make it stick together and be cohesive in my mind, like, but they're actually trying to build something along those lines for political purposes.

Whereas on the right, I think the critics of critical race theory, unlike you have tried to just kind of downplay any kind of corporate nature that it doesn't matter at all, that, uh, we're all just people.

And that's, that's the thing. And it's like, well, you know, we are, but there's more, there's, there is more than that, uh, that makes us unique.

Maybe the breakdown of a family has necessitated this, uh, union of various backgrounds in one, in one place, uh, used to be the family supply, the strength and the, uh, the aid and the help and the identity.

And, and, you know, that's why we, we do, uh, ancestral studies. We, we, we use our DNA to find out, uh, where our great, great, great grandfathers came from. My, um, uh, I have an ancestor who was in the, um, well, several who was in the American revolution who came here in American, the late 1600s.

Um, uh, I have ancestors who, you know, fought in the civil war. And, um, uh, my wife is pretty much a amateur genealogist, but it's just her thrill to make connections with the past, uh, and with groups, uh, with, uh, where do they come from?

What nation did they come from? You know, not that it's going to change much for me today, but, uh, there is an identity there that, that gives me some comfort where I came from.

It does confer. I think, uh, uh, like when, you know, you're a man, it confers a sense of duty obligation. There, there are things attached to that, that, you know, how to act because of that. And I think that it's this, it's similar in a way, like if you, if you knew, so I have ancestors that go back to, uh, you know, my last name's Harris, the found the founding of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania ancestors that go back to the pilgrims.

Uh, they migrated South, but they, um, when I know that when I, cause I have an uncle who's big into genealogy and he's told us a lot of these stories, it does create in me a sense of stewardship for, you know, Hey, this is the country we've been in for a while.

We're pretty invested here. And it doesn't mean someone else who's just arrived, can't also have a sense of stewardship, but there is a deepness to it that I have. And, um, and wanting to pass that down to my kids too.

I really, I want them to know where their grandfather came from and how hard life was during the depression. And, you know, those things really help a family stick together. Uh, if all we watch is Marvel movies, you know, and we don't know the stories of our families or our country or our local area or any of that, then we're just not going to have a very, we're gonna have a shaky foundation by which to relate to one another.

Yeah. One of the blessings I had was I was able to talk to my grandfather who was born in the 1890s. And, uh, and now I have grandchildren who will be living, you know, into the 2000s, fifties and sixties.

And there's, um, what a hundred, um, 200 years span there that I can connect the previous generations with the future generations. And I just feel like that's an obligation that I have, uh, as a, as a man, uh, to, um, uh, to show the connection and what we have inherited.

The providence of God. Yeah. Yeah. The providence of God. And I was born into the family that you don't choose the family you're born into. And so, I mean, I was born in Appalachia, which in some ways was a, um, uh, a minority group, uh, rather poor coal miners.

And, um, and I'm proud of that in a way, um, uh, it's my heritage. Um, and so, um, I just think it's important to, um, to see the connections with, with family and the past and, and, and, um, it's, it's important for identity purposes.

Identity in Christ and the Meaning of Diversity

Let me, let me ask you a question along these lines. And I know just so people understand, this is not, you only spend a section on this. You talk about a lot of other things. I'm the reason we're spending more time is because I think you have something unique to say about this.

Uh, let me ask you this question. What about this idea that in the church is found everything as far as your identity, you don't need anything really outside the fact that you're a Christian that should be the only identity that is of any importance to you and your connection to other people should be either, uh, along the lines of they're my brothers and sisters, or they need to be my brothers and sisters.

And I should evangelize them because that's what I see a lot more of today. And I, and I will be honest. I do see it with some people who they don't seem as interested in passing down, uh, any kind of, of culture, uh, to their children.

They seem not all of them, some of them perhaps, but, but I have seen examples of this where it's just the only identity is the church. And then, and then when you have a kid who doesn't receive Christ, it's almost like they're alienated from the family and it's sad to me, but you know, what, what do you.

Think of that objection to what you're saying? Well, and, uh, again, biblically, um, I think that, uh, we, we don't lose our, uh, identity in the family as, as we come into the church. I mean, just looking at the family itself, um, my children come into the church with me.

And, um, um, so I'm a man, I'm not a woman. There's one diversity right there. I'm a father. I'm not a child. That's two diversity situations right there. Um, I'm white. I'm not black. Uh, that's another diversity that we can't change.

It can't be changed. And, um, I think the whole concept of spirituality, we have to re re look at again. Um, spirituality does not deny the physical in this world. The problem of the world is not, uh, spiritual versus physical, but the problem of the world is, um, is, uh, sin.

Um, and, um, and, and in a sense, God's law, um, it's not, it's not a physical, the physical is not bad. It's not a bad thing. God created us physical in the resurrection. We're going to be physical. And so there's a physical element.

That's a good element. God created the creation, which is a physical. And so, um, you know, even from the old Testament, you find Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, you found a covenant, you find a, uh, uh, the importance of the family.

And again, as a, um, as a Presbyterian, I believe that when adults came into the church, they came in, um, as families. And so, um, uh, one does not deny the other. I mean, both are important. I think we do have identity in Christ.