Responding to Tim Staples on Catholic Answers Live on Sola Scriptura

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:30

Well, greetings and welcome to the dividing line. It's uh, I think it's Tuesday. I last time I checked

00:35

When Rich forces me to do extra programs, I lose track of what day of the week it is and stuff like that but You know, he just said we had to do it.

00:42

So, you know, he's he he cracks the whip. It's just it's it's pretty ugly but Anyways, welcome to the program.

00:49

Uh, you'll notice i've got a uh, nice little alphamaker shirt on here See that theology does matter and uh

00:56

Al moeller keeps trying to steal that from me. Um I can pretty much document we've been doing that on here before he started doing that on the briefings so, uh, we're gonna have to have a little discussion about that, but uh,

01:07

Actually, if you keep a uh an eye on aomin .org, we will uh pretty soon right fairly soon

01:15

Rich is looking at me like I don't know I don't know. I've got the guys they're doing it right here with me, but I don't know because i'm the world's worst marketer

01:23

So, I don't know We're supposed to have something up. Eventually, uh, you know

01:28

I was just like wow You know opportunity, you know, we've got got product here and it's like well

01:35

I don't know. Maybe eventually someday possibly we might have something up. I don't know Maybe by so that's like that's like test product you're wearing right there.

01:45

Yeah, that's uh, you know, that's the demo stuff So but we were just talking

01:51

I don't want to say anything official yet Right, but the the the thought at the moment is that we roll out

02:01

Black friday We roll out what? What what was that we roll out black friday black friday, oh

02:11

So because that's just you know, those are just the samples. We don't actually have inventory yet. Well, isn't black friday

02:19

After the election Yeah Oh, okay.

02:24

I I don't expect there to be a black friday I I expect there to be uh, freedom forces versus socialist forces um battles

02:38

You're gonna have to totally redo the line yeah, yeah something like that, but you know that that may be when when uh

02:45

Utah is invaded by colorado or something. I don't I don't know but Yeah You all think i'm joking

02:54

No, this is a nervous laugh back here. This is nervous laugh. Yeah, it's nervous laughter.

02:59

Yeah, it is It is nervous laughter. Yeah Anyway back to the program back to the program.

03:06

Yes, uh, there you go. It does really show up there, doesn't it? Yeah, and there's a nice cairo in the background.

03:11

So, um There you go. Um for those For those who

03:19

Are part of that sad little group that you see any christian symbol at all And you've read way too many jack chick

03:28

Cartoons and automatically think that every christian symbol is a pagan symbol. Well, there you go

03:34

Um, you know a circle's pagan and a square is pay well pagans have used everything folks

03:40

Uh, you know, you might want to get over that that particular little problem. You've got there Anyhow, we have a lot to get to today

03:46

Uh because I was sent a a clip you know if someone wanted to Sit around and watch every episode of catholic answers live

04:02

And send me time indexed. Um links We'd probably do this more often.

04:07

I don't have time to do that. And but someone did And I looked at it i'm like yeah, okay that That's something definitely worthwhile taking a look at the reality is we'd probably get four or five of those per week and so it'd be really hard to keep up with stuff like that, but There's actually a whole bunch of sources we could we could go for Mormonism and oh,

04:34

I saw someone sent me. I think jeff down sent me. Yeah, jeff down sent me a link to a new greg stafford video, you know, he's still out there doing his thing and He did not look good i'm sorry he he that was that was a little little frightening it was a little scary um

04:52

But he still got his little group out there and and so he wouldn't call that jehovah's witnesses because joe's witnesses wouldn't call that jehovah's witnesses, but they're doing their thing and and my goodness, uh social media would would provide you with so much heresy every day you could never get to it because it takes time to Edit and put it together and get your time indexes and transfer files and learn

05:15

And it's gotten a lot easier man. I'm gonna tell you I I can think back to you know, when we first started doing webcasting and and what we can do now and the speed with which we can do it and You know dropbox and stuff like that the cloud and all that kind of stuff

05:34

It has gotten a whole lot easier and it looks a lot better Looks a lot better While a while ago

05:40

I ran into um My first digital uh camera In a box somewhere, uh, because you know, i'm scottish you might need it someday

05:51

Not only was it was it humongous Um, but I do remember it had a whopping 640 by 480 resolution 640 by 480.

06:04

Remember that? I remember having more than one computer monitor That was 640 by 480 and you're sitting there going what is what is that?

06:13

You you're you're so used to mega pixels pixels on your screens that you don't even Have any idea what that looked like?

06:19

But anyway Uh, well, I just I just linked today to a really cool

06:26

Commercial that someone I found this morning. Someone sent to me of bruce willis uh doing a commercial for diehard batteries and um

06:38

They they brought back all the old I guess all the all the guys that he fought uh in various the diehard movies

06:47

Including the guy who drove that limo in the first diehard movie um And they they put it all in a two minute diehard commercial.

06:55

It was great. It was wonderful But as I was watching it, I realized a There are a bunch of people who will be voting

07:05

In the next election have no idea what any of that means Because they've never seen any of that stuff

07:11

Hey, they don't they don't get Bruce who that they don't get the limo.

07:17

They don't get none of that stuff and um Secondly, they're probably all wearing depends.

07:25

That's that's the really sad sad thing is is all of the super action heroes

07:31

Uh, they made all those great movies way back when Yeah That's why they didn't show bruce climbing up into that Uh air shaft that he had to get out of that place because there ain't no way

07:44

No, they'd have to get a body double and and the whole nine yards that'd be it's not gonna happen

07:51

Yep. Yep. So anyway, uh, yeah, we've been doing this for a while And uh, it just reminded me

07:58

You know that there's a lot of old folks stuff that I got to be careful not to try to use them as illustrations

08:07

Don't want to miss don't lose half the audience and then the other half is Um probably going to be asleep after 15 minutes.

08:14

Anyways, so um, anyhow, uh, some of you I certainly do get this some of you are not aware of the fact that For many years before there was um

08:27

A video dividing line, uh, we did radio well, we did audio we did just plain webcasting from Wow right the turn of the century

08:44

Nah, well, when did we leave kpxq is that oh one? But we had started doing real audio before that Yeah, because they were doing it.

08:54

Yeah. Um so And then when did we when did we finally with the with the

09:03

Tealing ceiling tiles on the walls And the the bookcase that over there that was leaning

09:11

You think I was 12 or 13 you think we've only done this eight or seven or eight years Interesting.

09:17

Okay. All right. So for a decade Yeah, so for over a decade

09:24

When we were in here we still were just I could wear whatever I wanted, you know Pick my nose whenever I wanted to just didn't matter

09:32

And then these things showed up. Um And everything changed.

09:37

Um So, you know way way back when in the olden days

09:45

Uh, we need to get little lights that have little arrows meaning i'm going over here now, uh, uh, maybe we'll get that in the new studio but Uh, no, not that that just got shot down.

09:57

Okay, fine anyway uh Back in the 1990s and early into the early 2000s um

10:05

One of the major things we were involved with was dealing with roman catholicism debating catholic answers

10:13

Um catholic answers was doing lots of debating back in the 1980s 1990s

10:20

And um, they don't do nearly as much debating as they used to do um

10:27

And uh, we're one of the reasons for that. I think to be perfectly honest with you because I think initially uh people like scott hahn and jerry matatix um, we're just wiping the floor with everybody that they that they debated and finally the other side showed up and um, and things changed and you can still go back and Um man,

10:50

I wish I had the videos from uh, the initial paco debates and uh, those those initial debates, but we've we've still got

10:57

Not overly high quality audio of some of the earliest ones and then the video starts showing up eventually um of of the debates and that first debate on long island with jerry matatix that chris arnzen put together and You know a single camera uh recording off audience sound

11:18

Uh off room sound so in other words there wasn't any feed going into the camera from our microphones and so You know audio qualities compared to what we do today

11:30

Really stinks, uh, but you can still make it out and they were fascinating debates And people weren't doing anything like that.

11:37

So I mean people flocked we we filled that place up over and over and over again uh starting in baldwin and then we went out to Uh start with hunt or something

11:49

Huntington town townhouse. Yeah And I don't think even that exists anymore. I don't think either one of them.

11:55

Yeah. Yeah, I think the one's been torn down anyway And so we would we did for for 10 years.

12:02

We did a the great debate series on long island and uh Debated many topics on the subject of roman catholicism.

12:10

I've debated um Many of the leading roman catholic apologists who are now aging.

12:16

I mean this was uh, you know over 20 years ago and so But we the reality is the topics that we covered really haven't changed now.

12:26

Rome has changed Um back then you had like I mentioned the last program you had

12:34

Uh, the consistency of the pontificate of john paul ii um

12:40

That has changed with his death and then cardinal ratzinger benedict benedict the 16th um a a

12:51

Huge theologian and um But as a german theologian deeply influenced by a lot of Postmodern thought and things similar to that and now francis, um

13:08

The whole the whole scene has shifted Uh in it and and I I don't even know how you do debates right now

13:15

On that particular subject because you can just always go i'm not sure that's what francis believes, you know, and and that changes everything but anyway, um

13:24

They are still doing catholic apologetics it is much more challenging today and the interesting thing is there does seem to be this chasm that exists

13:35

Between old style roman catholic apologetics and I say old style in the sense of tim staples tim staples came along uh, we debated him

13:45

Uh, that was the first one in uh Okay, so we we debated him twice 97 and 2000

13:53

That's not including the bible answer man, uh programs, but formally on soul scriptura and papal infallibility

14:01

And those were in southern california and then like I said, we did um We did the bible answer man broadcast.

14:09

I think twice if I recall correctly and then the last thing tim and I did

14:14

I was We were supposed to debate in australia last year

14:20

He was there at the exact thing. He was in sydney at the exact same time. I was but they wouldn't debate

14:26

The we had we had set up We had people that wanted to set it up and there had been an agreement at first and then it's like No, we're not gonna do it.

14:34

So we were both there Could have done it had willing people on both sides and they said no

14:41

Uh, so the last time that we did a formal debate Was here on the dividing line on the subject of purgatory and that was a good debate and actually the weird thing is

14:54

Um, most of the debates we've had on purgatory have been really good. And of course the stravinsky's debate

15:01

That's a that's a that's a top five, uh, whichever direction you go because it was so clear

15:08

It was fascinating was The debate on purgatory was clearer on the difference between the two sides on justification than the debate on justification was uh part of that was because roberts and jenna's can muddle lots of things but um,

15:25

But because purgatory was sort of like well, let's apply this. Let's see how this works and That's that that was that was a fascinating fascinating debate.

15:35

So anyways with all of that said um, I have a

15:40

Call here from catholic answers. It was sent to me uh, not by catholic answers, but uh by someone else on twitter and I want us to to listen to it and then we'll go back through it.

15:55

Um, and as always my my hope is that As you're listening to it

16:03

Uh, don't just sit there going Oh i'm looking forward to what james is going to say in response to what he says because i've been hearing tim staples and jerry medetichs and patrick madrid and carl keating and mark brumley

16:16

Um and and and all that Sorry guys, but old group

16:25

Because that's the reality we are we are the senior statesmen, uh, they are the senior statesmen of the catholic apologists these days

16:34

What Uh, we're the boomers the boomer generation, oh, okay. All right.

16:39

So the boomer generation of uh, catholic apologists and and The few of us on the other side that responded to what they had to say um and uh, so, uh, this is tim staples on the air taking these calls and as always like I was saying

16:57

Uh instead of just going I wonder how you respond to that um How would you respond?

17:03

That's the the key is when you hear this What you want to be doing is going how would I respond?

17:09

Are you are you listening? Presuppositionally And presuppositionally doesn't just mean applying some type of transcendental argument

17:21

Thinking presuppositionally means that when you're listening to an argument you are immediately identifying the most often unexpressed

17:32

Assumptions that are lying behind the questions statements the form of the question how it is being phrased

17:45

The problem is if you learn to do this Listening to almost any cultural conversation today

17:52

Will give you heartburn Because it becomes so transparently obvious That the cultural conversation that we're having is on a second grade level at its highest

18:07

At the highest levels of government. It's on a second grade level once you start recognizing just how vacuous most

18:14

Most folks arguments are but we especially have to listen to this very very carefully In this context because this is the foundational issue.

18:23

I'm not saying it's the issue that provides the primary theological division the primary

18:29

Theological division in regards to roman catholicism is the gospel itself the nature of god.

18:35

How do you have peace with god? Uh, it was with tim staples in studio,

18:40

I remember I can I can see Where hank canegraaff was sitting and obviously not listening carefully enough

18:47

Um given where he's gone since then Uh, but I could see where hank was sitting and where tim was sitting and where my guys were and their guys were

18:58

And we're sort of facing each other and we're going at it And it was at that time

19:04

That I forced the issue And said tim I want to make sure people understand if someone walked up to you and I Let's say outside an abortion clinic

19:17

And asked us What must I do to be saved? Is it not true

19:25

That the answers that you and I would give would be fundamentally different And contradictory and he said yes, that's the issue that's the issue now

19:39

There are all sorts of foundational things you have to get to because remember in the reformation In the reformation you had the formal principle and the material principle

19:50

I think every I think every non roman catholic

19:57

And non -eastern orthodox Anyone who claims to be reformed

20:03

Should be able to sing a mighty fortress without using the hymnal. That's first thing if if you can't

20:10

If you can't you guys can you sing a mighty fortress? Shall we shall we test of it? Shall we have mike rich turn the mic microphone on and and have have a duet back?

20:19

Not going to do it. We have a studio audience today. Um, and so They look a little cagey a little

20:25

I don't know just i'm rich has his back to him But i'm keeping an eye on forage because you never know.

20:32

Um, looking a little I'm, you know, I could hear in a lot of akbar coming out something like who knows it could get a little little strange out there anyway, uh

20:43

That does remind me that was the other thing I was going to talk about in the program today help help me to write I want to talk about if if I when

20:48

I get to the end of this I want to talk about what's going on in france right now with uh, with macron and and The suppression of religious liberty for the sake of secularism in france

20:58

I want to talk about that too But I I I didn't put it in in evernote and if I don't put it in evernote

21:03

It's like it leaks out of my brain. Anyways, what were we talking about here? Um, Yes, tim staples.

21:10

Uh The you need to know if you're going to be reformed You need to be able to sing a mighty fortress is our god by memory.

21:18

Okay If you want to be obnoxiously reformed Then learn it in german

21:26

Which I have done as well. I don't know I can sing all the verses but i've certainly sung it in german and when you and Hey, look i've preached from luther's pulpit

21:38

I had to I mean what what do you expect me to do? Okay, I quoted luther in german when I preached from his pulpit

21:44

All right, and if you've been there then you know that at the top of the church around the belfry type thing

21:51

Up there is ein festerberg. Ist ist Got and uh, so you you're looking up at it going.

21:58

What is that? And you need to know him. So anyways That's not overly serious But I I would suggest that you know the know that particularly him but the other thing you need to know are the principles of the reformation

22:11

The material and formal principles of the reformation now, how can you remember which one's which?

22:17

It's simple the material principle Made up the material of the preaching.

22:23

What was this? What was the substance? of the preaching That Changed people's minds that that moved people's hearts that that brought this about that was sola fide

22:41

Justification by faith alone Grace alone through faith alone.

22:48

So the material principle what was being preached? Was justification by faith alone, which of course rome denies?

22:57

The formal principle which gave form To the reformation

23:05

So it was not the substance of the preaching but the underlying Presuppositional assumptions

23:13

Sola scriptura and so historically Luther came to the material principle

23:21

And then was forced to recognize the formal principle primarily when he

23:29

Engaged in debate on the subject and was challenged by his lifelong enemy um a brilliant man

23:39

And if you want to hear some more discussion about this, but You can i'm not gonna get into it right now because that would take us way far away from where you need to be but uh,

23:48

I did a presentation at the Sovereign conference in washington dc in november of 2017 on the two different luthers and I Uh Specifically talked about this particular subject and went into all the details

24:10

So look that up if you want to follow this on find out how luther was pushed into recognizing sola scriptura and Why he and his lifelong enemies could both be anti -jewish

24:22

At the end of their lives and yet have different principles So I went into all that kind of stuff and dealt with it at that time.

24:28

Anyway So You need to know those principles And so what we're talking about today in this clip will be the formal principle

24:38

And that is the issue of solo scriptura and I have corrected tim staples

24:47

On every text he's going to cite for over 20 years and he's still citing him

24:54

And i'm going to continue to correct him And i'm going to continue to point out that he really does not have a meaningful response.

25:01

He gets away with murder Um, he wouldn't get away with this Because I can say hey, dude

25:08

I pointed this out to you two decades ago And you still don't have an answer But it's catholic answers live.

25:15

I'm not on the air And he's probably not assuming i'm going to be on the air at any time soon with him.

25:21

So there you go Okay, uh, so here is the phone call now i'll admit

25:28

The caller is a little perky I'm, not sure if that communicates

25:35

He's he's a little cheeky um so And and I know tim staples

25:42

He got the answer the guy got the answers that he got and you can see tim get revved up Because he was

25:52

A little on the cheeky side. Okay. Um, but that's good because that that gives us more to respond to so All right.

25:59

Here we go. Here's uh, here's here's here's the call 8 8 31 truth jeff listening in Southern new jersey or watching on youtube live.

26:10

Welcome to catholic answers live jeff. Are you are you as far south as cape may? Uh, no, not that far south.

26:16

All right What's your question Uh, yeah, thanks for taking my call. I should preface that.

26:23

Um, I uh, I've been following catholic apologetics for a while good and I've uh, generally found their arguments against total scriptura to be

26:33

Very bad. Okay, and I know I know that's a a wide ranging topic that can cover a multiple multiplicity of arguments

26:43

Uh and I kind of in two colors ago, I Kind of heard some points.

26:49

I I would classify as Arguments that aren't very good. Okay, and uh, just I I mean you may want me to narrow this down because it's a broad topic but I thought

26:58

I would uh Call in and try to sure sure jeff. Well, tell me tell me why my argument was bad

27:07

Uh, well first of all, uh Mark chapter 7 with the parallel account and matthew 13 implicitly, uh teaches, uh, total scriptura when um,

27:19

Okay, how is that? Oh, how is that? Well the tradition of the elders which uh, we can see from the talmud

27:26

Is uh, basically, uh what orthodox jews today would call uh, the oral torah which is a uh, allegedly divine oral tradition that uh comes from Uh, which came from moses allegedly, uh through the prophet to the elders

27:45

That's why it's okay. Well, jeff. Let me let me jump in and and tweak you just a little bit there

27:51

Okay, it is true Mark chapter 7 and by the way, the parallel is in matthew chapter 15

27:59

Where jesus hammers the the traditions of men? That is not

28:06

In any way jesus condemning tradition in general in fact as you must know brother or Correct me if i'm wrong here in matthew chapter 23 verses 1 and 2 for example, jesus refers to a tradition

28:25

Of the authority of the high priest that goes all the way back to exodus chapter 28

28:33

And as it continued down through the centuries in the church The tradition of the jews was you had what was called the chair of moses.

28:43

And by the way even protestant scholars Acknowledge this many protestant scholars acknowledge that jesus is acknowledging this tradition as divine

28:54

Not only does he acknowledge it, but he then tells the apostles to obey it

28:59

You listen to those who are on the chair of moses do according to what they say, but not according to what they do

29:07

For they say but they do not but he acknowledges the authority and The tradition he acknowledges the tradition of abraham's bosom in luke chapter 16

29:18

This is a jewish tradition that you'll find in even some of the intertestamental

29:24

Apocryphal old testament books it was already popularly taught And it's in some of the books that we call the inspired word of god as well that unfortunately protestants have rejected we have the

29:37

I mentioned earlier in in matthew 2 23 and there are many more we could look at the oral prophecy that the saint matthew acknowledged was divine so to say because jesus condemns the corban rule

29:53

Which was a tradition of men that contradicted the word of god means

29:59

All tradition is is condemned is simply not true

30:04

In fact, we can say similarly in the new testament that saint paul clearly upholds

30:12

Traditions that are of god and that bind all believers as I mentioned earlier in the show

30:20

In second thessalonians chapter 2 verse 15 stand fast in the traditions You've been taught either by word or written level letter.

30:28

In fact in second thessalonians 3 6 he says mark those who walk Contrary to the tradition.

30:35

I command you in the name of the lord. Jesus christ have nothing to do with them

30:41

Right. That's pretty authoritative Saying if you don't walk in accordance with the tradition

30:48

You are marked and we will have nothing to do with you How do these examples sound to you jeff of half a dozen or so examples where our lord defends tradition?

31:00

Yeah, i'm familiar with a lot of those examples Uh, there was a lot of errors in his uh argument that it would he've said a lot in a short amount of time

31:08

Okay, uh, like the the seat of moses passage Kind of as the u .s.

31:13

Catholic bishop's bible says in this footnote is that they're not sure what the seat of moses is

31:19

But if you are taking that passage the way you want to take it It wouldn't harmonize with mark 7 because mark 7 he's condemning something

31:29

They're actually being taught by the pharisees and that No, no, no what you have to do brother

31:34

With all due respect jeff. What we have to do Is take the words the word of god and believe

31:43

All of it. This is i'm going to tell you jeff. This is one of the reasons why you may know I'm a former assembly of god youth pastor.

31:49

I was raised southern baptist One of the reasons why i'm a catholic is because of this the catholic church takes all of sacred scripture and so when you see one text i'll

32:02

Drop one. I know you and I agree on okay. He he's gonna go from there and sort of Take it away from there, but There you have a a a classic standard

32:19

Presentation of the idea of Accepting the concept of oral tradition because remember in roman in in conservative roman catholic apologetics you have the idea that scripture is a subcategory

32:38

Of capital s capital t sacred tradition And sacred tradition is made up of the written tradition scripture and the oral tradition

32:50

Which is delivered by jesus to the apostles and passed down orally in the church okay so there is a classic just Throw out second thessalonians 2 15 and 3 6 and and and rat -a -tat -tat -tat -tat

33:06

I've told the story i'll tell it really briefly again about when

33:11

I first listened to jerry matatix Make a presentation on the biblical evidence for the exaltation of mary in scripture, especially in old testament types

33:25

This is back in the day when um, I would listen on headphones While I still was right that we did we had invented bikes at that point in time.

33:35

Um And I would go on my bike rides back in the 90s and I had something called a walkman

33:42

In my back pocket. Uh, that's why I could go so fast Now is that we don't have all that extra weight that we had back then, uh to have to have that thing in the back pocket

33:52

Uh, yeah, not not the ghetto blaster. No, um, this was uh, this was this this was small enough to fit in a pocket

33:59

But it's something called a cassette tape And so you had to keep it clean or it would eat the cassette tape in the middle of your ride

34:07

Which really was a bummer and um and stuff like that So anyway, I had listened to jerry matatix make this presentation.

34:15

I was blown away it was so fast -paced and so many references and it sounded incredible and Baptist boy me had never heard anything like this

34:29

I mean I had started studying roman catholicism, but I had never heard any kind of Argumentation like this before I was blown away.

34:38

So I got back from that ride. I got cleaned up I took that cassette tape and I put it into a different cassette tape player one.

34:46

I could stop and start easily and I uh Had a computer by that point in time

34:53

Uh that had a slow bible program, but it still had a bible program one of the first ones

34:58

And I think it was called pc study bible back then and uh, this was before lagas and accordance and all that kind of stuff

35:05

This is on a probably an 80 88. Uh for those of you who remember, uh A 386 maybe something like that.

35:14

Um, yeah, but again the younger people are going what never mind um, and I started

35:20

Back at the beginning and once I got the first reference pause You could pause it

35:26

Uh, it could it could mess the tape up if you pause it for too long, but you could pause it uh, and uh,

35:32

I looked it up And in the next one and the next one and the next one and with every single reference he was not being honest

35:41

The context did not substantiate the arguments. He was that was one of the most useful evenings

35:47

I ever spent Because I had been so impressed

35:53

With the argumentation because it sounded so good There was so much confidence

36:00

And then to come to discover that was a complete misrepresentation

36:07

Of what each one of those texts was saying But they get away with it because most people don't check them out, especially most roman catholics.

36:14

Let's just be honest Most roman catholics are not grabbing a bible program and checking that stuff out

36:20

There are a few but the vast majority. Hey, he said it. That sounds good. That's just how it works so Uh, the ratatat tat stuff can work on both sides

36:32

But if you want to see for example, you know, I was just mentioning the magic thing Go watch the debates that I had with jerry on the subject of mary like the first one we had in long island

36:44

And see what happens when someone who has the time to look up the references Can then cross -examine you and the wheels fell off Uh, the one of the last debates we did up in utah with jerry matics at university of utah on immaculate conception

37:01

I can just honestly say I won those debates because the facts are on my side And if you've got two equal debaters and the facts are on one side, not the other

37:08

That it should be fairly straightforward, but ends up happening as a result. So check those out

37:14

So here here you've got the same type of situation Uh, you you've got you've got the presentations you've got the uh, you've got the argumentation coming forward now

37:23

Let's stop and start And I invite you to get your bible program your bible, whatever it is

37:29

And let's examine What tim staples is saying and here's the other thing

37:37

There's some background information That needs to be presented as well Sometimes you gotta do some digging.

37:44

I was gonna grab this. I forgot. I apologize. Um, but in the other room I have the mishnah

37:50

I should have still grabbed it while that was playing because i've heard this before um but i'll give you some of the background information that will

37:58

Help you to see Through some of the argumentation that's being that's being given So let's i'm not going to start right from the start but from as we get into it here

38:07

Topic that can cover a multiple multiplicity of arguments uh and I kind of in two colors ago,

38:15

I Kind of heard some points. I I would classify as Arguments that aren't very good.

38:20

Okay, and uh, just I I mean you may want me to narrow this down because it's a broad topic but I thought

38:27

I would uh Call in and try to sure sure jeff. Well, tell me tell me why my argument was bad

38:35

Uh, well first of all, uh Uh mark chapter 7 with the parallel account and matthew 13 implicitly, uh teaches the soul scriptura when um

38:46

Okay, how is that? Oh, how is that? Well the tradition of the elders which uh, we can see from the talmud

38:55

Is uh, basically, uh what orthodox jews today would call uh, the oral torah

39:01

Which is a uh allegedly divine oral tradition that now let's stop right there and let's get some background.

39:07

Okay Uh matthew chapter 15. Uh, I like this one. It's a little bit longer than than than uh, mark's version

39:14

Then some pharisees and scribes came to jesus from jerusalem and said why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders?

39:20

And so there you have the the standard terminology parodicin parodicis tradition

39:28

That which is handed down. So you have the tradition of the presbyterian the elders.

39:34

So this is this is clearly Uh what is considered to be? part of that As he described it oral torah the oral body of revelation that at the time of jesus

39:47

The jews claimed had been passed down orally From moses through the great rabbis

39:55

All right. That was that was what they were claiming now. He mentioned the talmud. I would be more precise on that Specifically it's tractate a both of the mishnah now background information as well the mishnah is the codification of jewish beliefs traditions practices

40:16

That's put together between 200 and 250 years after the time of christ. So Since there is some time that has passed you have to be careful.

40:25

You can't just automatically assume That everything is in that was in the mishnah Was current in the days of jesus but most of it was um, there might be you know few few places where there was development, but most of it was

40:39

Now the korban rule is right there in tractate a both in the mishnah and the claim specifically about the korban rule, which is what matthew 15 and Mark 7 is about Is said to be a part of this oral torah this oral revelation that has come down from moses

40:58

Through the rabbis that is this specific claim. So what is the principle? Well, uh,

41:04

I'm i'm getting ahead here. So there is There is what is being discussed here and so Jesus being challenged.

41:15

Why do disciples break the tradition of those? They do not wash their hands when they eat bread And he answered and said to them

41:21

Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of god for the sake of your tradition? For god said honor your father and mother and he who speaks evil of father mother's boot to death

41:29

But you say whoever says to his father mother Whatever I have that would have helped you has been given to god In matthew in mark 7 the korban term itself is used

41:40

But it's the same it's a parallel account same same thing He is not to honor his father or his mother and by this you invalidated the word of god for the sake of your tradition so jesus's counter example

41:52

Is specifically the korban rule Which is a part of the oral torah, which is a part of the oral tradition the tradition of the elders

42:03

That is considered to be binding Upon the people by the scribes and pharisees.

42:08

All right, so we've established That this is a claim

42:14

The jews made the claim in the mishnah That the korban rule

42:21

Is divine It comes from a reliable source

42:27

Moses It has been orally passed down by the great rabbis so huh here is

42:38

A real clear parallel to exactly what rome claims and what tim staples is going to claim

42:45

When he quotes second thessalonians 2 15 Because when he uses second thessalonians 2 15 or when jerry maddix used it in our debate in sola scriptura in 1998 ish somewhere around there

42:58

When it's been used by every roman catholic apologist Over the past number of decades what they claim

43:05

Is that there are traditions? That were taught by jesus to the disciples and the disciples then delivered those to the bishops

43:16

So the difference is bishops versus rabbis But they're they're they are the authoritative um individuals chosen by god to carry

43:27

This this this tradition and to teach to others That this is passed down orally then

43:35

Through the bishops in the church just as the korban rule was passed down divine origin

43:42

Divinely passed down orally outside of scripture and his binding they're direct parallels They are direct parallels

43:51

Okay so the caller's argument is Jesus said even if you claim that it's not a human tradition

44:03

It is a divine tradition If you follow jesus You test even that which is called a divine tradition by the higher authority of the written word of god

44:16

So By this you invalidated the word of god for the sake of your tradition

44:23

How are they to know that by reference to the written? word of god

44:30

Not an oral word of god You hypocrites rightly did isaiah prophesy of you as people are as with their lips but their heart is far from me, etc, etc

44:39

Uh, so he condemns them But the point is how do you know? What is human tradition or divine tradition the jews believe the korban rule was divine tradition

44:51

That's what the traditions of the fathers are all about That's what that's that's that's the whole essence of it

45:00

Is that this is a living vital connection to moses

45:07

Who spoke with god? And what rome says is we have this body of tradition oral tradition which was delivered to the apostles

45:17

The apostles then delivered it to the bishops And we have access to this now for decades, we've all

45:24

Everyone like myself says Show us this tradition And they can't and they won't

45:30

Because the only way to do that is to look at the things that rome has defined based upon tradition

45:37

But she could define something else tomorrow Allegedly based upon tradition and we'd have no way of knowing it.

45:44

So the living tradition of the church Becomes a second source of revelation.

45:50

It really does they deny that but that's the reality And when you look at what rome has defined over the past two centuries

45:58

And what has rome defined over the past two centuries I think if you're going to be talking with your roman catholic friends, you probably should know

46:06

I mean, I mean this is sort of important stuff um, but you you have two key marian dogmas

46:15

And you have one key papal dogma So you you have

46:21

Uh the whole concept of the immaculate conception of mary Which was taught against I did a whole program in this record, but taught against by by popes

46:32

Etc, etc down through the centuries but it develops out of tradition

46:38

And becomes a dogma in the middle of the 19th century a dogma With the anathema if you dare to even question it in your heart, you are separated from the church

46:48

We're not talking about you know, we sort of think this is a nice insight you can believe it or not believe it. No That's not what a dogma is a dogma is de fide by faith.

46:56

It's it's definitional of the faith You cannot question the immaculate conception and be a faithful roman catholic

47:02

I would say 75 percent Of european and north american roman catholicism does that?

47:10

Does that? Especially in the leadership of the church in the seminaries. They don't really believe in the immaculate conception

47:18

That's that's that's magical. Hooha And in fact immaculate conception is a horrific doctrine

47:26

Um, because it fundamentally denies the incarnation If uh

47:32

Perpetual virginity and macular conception together the the sexual aspects of mary's

47:39

Dogmas when you put them together. It's a fundamental denial of the of the incarnation and attempt to parallel mary with jesus

47:46

Wrote a book on the subject. Uh, it's actually on amazon right in um, amazon kindle um, mary another redeemer question mark

47:54

So check that out, but the point is middle of 19th century. You have that defined a little 20 years

48:02

Odd years later you have papal infallibility defined at the first vatican council

48:08

And then in the middle of the 20th century You have the bodily assumption of mary

48:14

Defined which does not tell you whether mary died or not. You're allowed to believe either way but Mary was bodily assumed into heaven.

48:23

Her body did not experience corruption Uh was defined at de fide Interestingly enough without quite the same level of teeth

48:32

Uh in the anathema provided, uh the condemnation if you were to reject this, but still it's de fide you have to believe that And again,

48:41

I don't think a large portion of the leadership of the roman catholic church actually does believe that in the way

48:48

That it was defined the way it was meant. They always find a way to spiritualize it and come up with you know it's sort of like how many southern baptist professors sign the statement on inerrancy and then come up with a very spiritualized way of Getting rid of inerrancy and it happens and same thing in roman catholicism

49:08

Um So this is the whole idea that they have Uh regarding oral tradition.

49:15

It's a direct parallel and the historical reality from matthew 15 and mark 7 Is that jesus says there's a way?

49:24

to not fall into this trap of Believing something that people claim

49:30

Came from god the jews The jews didn't say this is just a human tradition one way or the other. No, this is this is the oral torah

49:36

This comes from god But you'll notice tim doesn't actually deal with that He calls it a human tradition.

49:42

That's not what the jews believed That's not what the jews believed But he dismisses that so that he can create a division

49:52

Between merely human tradition and divine tradition. So you're trying to find a way

49:58

To continue believing that there is such a thing as an oral tradition that's been delivered by jesus to the apostles to the bishops

50:06

And get around the fact that jesus said you test these things by scripture Okay, so that's what's going on here

50:13

That background gives you some of that information comes from uh

50:18

Which came from moses allegedly, uh through the prophet to the elders.

50:24

That's why it's okay Well, jeff, let me let me jump in and and tweak you just a little bit there

50:29

Okay, it is true Mark chapter 7 and by the way, the parallel is in matthew chapter 15

50:37

Where jesus hammers the the traditions of men? Which were believed to be divine traditions handed down from moses

50:49

Externally through an authoritative body of god ordained individuals.

50:55

Keep that in mind That is not In any way jesus condemning

51:02

Tradition in general now catch that see what you see Analyze the argumentation

51:09

That's not condemning tradition in general. That's true, but it doesn't take away the reality that there is a mechanism

51:17

For the identification of what is true and false tradition and it's the supremacy of the written word of scripture

51:26

Which rome denies Functionally denies has to deny

51:32

Because she has promulgated as dogma so many things based upon that tradition

51:39

Which she cannot base in scripture So catch see what see what's going on here.

51:44

This is this is a methodology that look I I first recognized this in karl keating

51:51

Uh catholicism and fundamentalism this rock magazine back in the 1980s When they first started doing this stuff and because there had been especially for conservative fundamentalists

52:06

Had developed this Allergic reaction to being even around in the same room with the roman catholic

52:13

The the fundamentalists back in the 20s had known these arguments and were good at responding to them now

52:18

Nobody even heard these arguments anymore And so these roman catholics come along and start using this type of stuff

52:24

Just listen to the debate that karl keating and patrick madrid had with two fundamentalists in denver Well, I was debating jerry maddox on the papacy.

52:30

They they destroyed them Because fundamentalism doesn't engage

52:37

Roman catholicism in a meaningful fashion and does not think presuppositionally does not argue presuppositionally uh in a meaningful fashion, they they do actually in one sense, but it's because it's

52:48

That's a long story. I'll go we'll go into right now. In fact, as you must know brother or Correct me if i'm wrong here in matthew chapter 23 verses 1 and 2 for example, jesus refers to a tradition of the authority of the high priest that goes all the way back to exodus chapter 28

53:13

And as it continued down through the centuries in the church The tradition of the jews was you had what was called the chair of moses and okay

53:23

Now let's talk about the chair of moses for a second. All right, let's uh again. This is not something that It's going to be covered very often in bible study classes and things like that, but it needs to be it should be um

53:35

Math chapter 23 verse 1 now remember what's matthew chapter 23? math chapter 23 is a

53:42

Incredible um Section of judgment upon the jewish leaders.

53:48

I mean this is matthew 23 is the essence of Jesus condemnation of the hypocrisy of the jewish leadership in his day

53:57

And then jesus spoke to the crowds to his disciples Saying the scribes and the pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of moses now notice uh saying upon The cathedrus of moses because that's where cathedral comes from by the way uh

54:13

The cathedral is where the bishop was who sat in the chair And that's where cathedrus comes from.

54:20

That's where cathedral comes from upon the seat of moses The scribes and the pharisees have seated themselves upon that now there

54:28

There are some who would say They have done so inappropriately um

54:35

Others would say That's not necessarily there But therefore all they tell you do and observe

54:43

But do not do according to their deeds for they say things and do not do them They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders

54:50

But they themselves are willing to move them with so much as a finger But by but they do all their deeds to be noticed by men for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments

54:59

They love the place of honor and it goes on and on and on a a scathing denunciation of these individuals, but what's being said here is oh, but but but but but You have the seat of moses and jesus says it's an authoritative teaching office

55:15

That's not found in scripture. And therefore you have oral tradition That's the argument that's being made here. So it's in the middle of a judgment passage and the most you can say is

55:27

They have seated themselves in this situation And immediately jesus says they're hypocrites.

55:33

Now. What was the seat of moses? Well Sorry, I was gonna I was gonna go back into my uh pictures and make sure

55:39

I I could show you a few pictures of the seat of moses every synagogue had them, uh that I well

55:47

Okay, there were some synagogues that I saw when I visited israel in um in 2018 um that Were Destroyed enough that you couldn't necessarily tell where it was but a number of them

56:00

I I got some really good pictures of the seat of moses and this was the place that would be close to the storage of the scrolls

56:13

And so this is where Uh, the person would sit who would read the scriptures who would read from the scriptures hence, it's the seat of moses because moses

56:25

Gives us the origin and first elements of the scriptures um

56:32

They obviously didn't believe that all scriptures came from moses, of course, but the point is he's the first one to be used of god to Create this body of scrolls that make the hands dirty.

56:46

They are holy Uh, they were laid up in the temple because they are holy they have a special authority

56:53

And so to sit in the seat of moses the authority Comes from what you're reading

57:00

And so when it says therefore all that they tell you do and observe but do not do according to their deeds

57:09

Jesus is simply saying maintain the order of the synagogue

57:15

I'm, not calling you to be rebels at this point in time But do not do according to their deeds observe recognize the difference between The written revelation that they read to you

57:31

And the actions that they actually undertake in of themselves So it is a huge leap

57:39

To take this and go. Ah, see The actual teaching of jesus is not what you have in matthew 15 and mark chapter 7

57:48

Where he tests supposedly divine revelation By the unchanging standard of scripture.

57:54

No, no, no, no The actual teaching of jesus is that there is a jewish magisterium a jewish

58:02

Magisterial authority represented by the seat of moses the interesting thing a number of interesting things about that Is that the jewish magisterium for example?

58:13

Had a different canon tim's going to make an error here in a little bit Well, it's not so much an error, uh as it is just biased presentation.

58:21

He's going to talk about apocryphal books He's not going to tell you That those same apocryphal books were rejected by the people who sat on the seat of moses

58:31

They never read from those books, but he does So he doesn't actually accept what he's now saying

58:42

Maybe that's why we don't get debates anymore. I don't know. Um Maybe maybe that has something to do with it.

58:47

But so there's there's the matthew 23 section If you go visit Lord, will and get a chance to do it again someday.

58:55

Um If we go visit, uh israel, then you will see the seat of moses got some really good pictures

59:02

Uh of of that especially where were we was that? Bethesda it was like a second or third century, uh one but it was the seat of moses was was still there

59:12

You couldn't identify it in the first century, uh one, uh in uh, galilee that we visited it was so exciting because um

59:21

It was clearly. Um It was in magdala migdal

59:27

So that's where mary magdalene was from so there there's a 99 .9 chance Jesus was in that synagogue and he taught in all the synagogues.

59:33

So the rocks we were looking at heard jesus teach, uh but you couldn't really identify the seat of moses in that particular one, but Uh, you could in a number of others the way even protestant scholars acknowledge this many protestant scholars acknowledge

59:49

That jesus is acknowledging this tradition as divine now that This tradition as divine what tradition let's be specific.

01:00:00

Is this a divine revelation that exists outside of scripture? So that jesus is now contradicting what he said in matthew 15 and matthew 7

01:00:09

No, of course not what what did he actually say they have seated themselves in the chair of moses

01:00:16

So are you saying that the chair of moses? Is a divine revelation if so, why don't you have it anymore?

01:00:23

Okay What what was this tradition? What there was a place in the synagogue synagogues did not exist in the days of moses

01:00:30

Okay, and synagogues came into existence after the people were driven out of the land so What is this tradition who gave it and how is it divine in in origin

01:00:45

This is how the people are worshiping And when people read the scriptures as jesus did in the synagogue in nazareth when the scrolls were given to him

01:00:55

That's what he was doing So what's the authority from if if you want consistency

01:01:01

You want tota scriptura all of scripture then you're going to put mark 7 matthew 15 and matthew 23 together

01:01:09

And you're also going to notice in matthew chapter 23 This is a part of a judgment passage about the hypocrisy of people who will have divine revelation

01:01:18

And then they're not live in light of it. That's what's being discussed here This is to try to turn this into some kind of idea of an extra biblical tradition

01:01:27

There's been passed down from who we don't even know Where's this from in it?

01:01:33

Where do you find any of this? I don't know but Then always be careful, especially with tim staples

01:01:40

Well, actually there are some others that are much worse um But be very careful when these quote unquote former protestants

01:01:48

Start talking about protestant scholarship Uh the number of times I have caught these guys out

01:01:55

In misrepresenting protestant quote unquote protestant scholarship or even what they call protestant scholarship is legion

01:02:01

Not only does he acknowledge it, but he then tells the apostles to obey it

01:02:06

You listen to those who are on the chair of moses do according to what they say

01:02:12

But not according to what they do for they say but they do not but he acknowledges the authority and uh

01:02:19

Which came from the reading of the scriptures, which is what the person seated upon the seat of moses was doing tradition He acknowledges the tradition of abraham's bosom in luke chapter 16.

01:02:29

This is a jewish tradition That you'll find in even some of the intertestamental

01:02:35

Apocryphal old testament books. It was already popularly taught And it's in some of the books that we call the inspired word of god as well

01:02:43

And when did they start calling them the inspired word of god specifically? april of 1546

01:02:50

April of 1546 a millennium and a half After the birth of jesus is when you have the dogmatic revelation revelation dogmatic definition

01:03:01

Of the council of trent in regards to canon scripture, which includes the canonization of those books you have entire popes

01:03:08

You have popes pope gregory the great specifically said the book of maccabees was not canon scripture

01:03:15

Who knew that in 1546, right? anyways That unfortunately protestants have rejected we have which popes rejected and which jerome rejected and which

01:03:27

Long which which cardinal kayatan who interviewed luther had just written a commentary on the bible and he rejected shortly before They all of a sudden became authoritative in 1546.

01:03:39

Yeah, we've debated that one a few times check out those those debates as well Oh I mentioned earlier in in matthew 2 23 and there are many more we could look at the so what he's got here

01:03:50

What he's trying to say here now is well Maybe there was an oral tradition that refers to the the the naser the the nazareth issue.

01:04:00

He reborn nazareth the Issues regarding netzer what that might mean and maybe that was an oral tradition.

01:04:06

And so that means it's somehow revealed or Uh this type of thing they can never be specific

01:04:12

And that helps them because they can never be specific about their oral traditions today either What might become?

01:04:18

Dogmatic in the next 50 years or something like that. You you don't know oral prophecy that the st.

01:04:24

Matthew acknowledged was divine so to say because jesus condemns the corban rule

01:04:34

Which was a tradition of men But which the jews identified as being originated in moses and being divine

01:04:46

That contradicted the word of god Means all tradition is is condemned is simply not true.

01:04:54

Now. Did you catch that? So what we have is we are given a biblical mechanism of being able to test tradition

01:05:03

So what he wants to change that into is we are saying all tradition is bad.

01:05:08

Well, there's obviously Human tradition there are traditions of men that are condemned in scripture, but there are positive uses of tradition as well

01:05:16

We have to define what those are They don't want you to find what those are because they just want you to default into the idea of this nebulous

01:05:22

Oral tradition that you can never define that you can never identify because that's what they're going to use to come up with their own biblical teachings

01:05:29

This this is Look, tim isn't even having to think right now He's done this so many times over the over the decades

01:05:35

And i've refuted him so many times over the decades that that we will we could do this in old folks homes

01:05:40

Uh while while heavily medicated in fact, we can say similarly in the new testament

01:05:47

That saint paul clearly upholds Traditions that are of god and that bind all believers as I mentioned earlier in the show

01:05:58

Okay, so now here you have again We are assuming a definition of tradition

01:06:04

That is consistent with the modern roman catholic definition of this idea of tradition

01:06:10

Rather than let's he's going to give some examples And we're going to have the opportunity of jumping into those texts and see exactly what they were saying

01:06:18

In second thessalonians chapter 2 verse 15 stand fast in the tradition So he's going to quote that and i'm going to quote it for him as well

01:06:26

So then brethren stand firm and stake a day stake a day stand firm and hold to hold to the traditions plural

01:06:41

Which you were taught? That's plural too Why is that important?

01:06:48

Why is that important? Why is that important guys? I also I saw you all looking at something over there.

01:06:53

I'm not sure what you're looking at What are y 'all looking at over there looking at me, uh -huh?

01:06:59

Yeah, you're you've never lied well, um to the traditions

01:07:05

Which you were taught plural not you the bishop or you even the bishops?

01:07:13

This is addressed to everyone in the thessalonian church Everybody in the church at thessalonica

01:07:22

Was already the recipient of these traditions Keep that in mind

01:07:30

Because whenever anyone refers to this text aside from the fact this is actually talking about the gospel aside from that reality

01:07:40

You're going to have roman catholics who are going to turn to this passage and say this is why we don't have to show you

01:07:48

Historical documentation of anyone believing the stuff that we believe about mary For a thousand years and more

01:07:58

But it's apostolic because it had been delivered to the church at thessalonica Now I can guarantee you that when cardinal newman came up with his development hypothesis.

01:08:06

This was what he was trying to avoid Because he knew he knew he knew

01:08:11

That is historically absurd To assert That the apostles actually taught to the thessalonians the concept of the immaculate conception of mary

01:08:26

They know That there is not a scintilla of evidence that could ever be found

01:08:32

Or has ever been found of something like that That in reality the development hypothesis allows you in essence to have new sources of revelation.

01:08:42

That's what it is That's that's that's how it functions. That's how it functions. I didn't know

01:08:47

I was gonna go this long. Um And i'm not even close to being done been taught either by word or written level letter

01:08:54

In fact in second thessalonians three. Oh, he didn't even finish that. Let me finish it for him The traditions which you plural were taught whether dia lago ita de epistoles

01:09:08

So what they do he doesn't do it here he's just assuming it But what they do is they say see dia lago

01:09:17

Is by word by the spoken word. So there's the oral tradition Or dia epistoles an epistle a written document

01:09:28

So so here's here's our two. Here's our two sources And i'm not making this up.

01:09:34

You can go back right now. You can go to youtube right now You can go To sermon audio right now.

01:09:40

You can listen to the debate that jerry manatics and I did i'm sitting here I can see the audience in my mind where we receded, uh the whole nine yards

01:09:50

Uh when we did solo scriptura And you will hear him berate the audience

01:09:58

Berate the audience for daring to claim to believe the word of god and not understand the second

01:10:03

Thessalonians 2 15 says that you if you're going to be a faithful christian You must believe to two forms the written and the oral and you if you're a protestant you reject the oral you're in rebellion repent

01:10:14

I can preach it just like he can But is that what it says? He's assuming it

01:10:20

Is that what it says? No, it's not Paul had been in thessalonica So the logu the spoken word was his teaching when he was amongst them he said it had been delivered to them

01:10:33

Plural he had preached to the believers in thessalonica. He had instructed them in the gospel

01:10:41

And all that it meant But this is also called second thessalonians

01:10:48

So they had something else didn't they? Yeah, it's called first thessalonians He had already written to them in written form

01:10:58

Reinforcing what he had taught to them while he was there This is nothing about well, there's going to be this source of revelation that 1500 years from now

01:11:14

The church can use To define something that no one for the next 500 years is ever going to think about As if it defines the christian faith, that's what rome has done

01:11:26

That's what rome has done With her marian dogmas things like that okay so What is being talked about in second thessalonians chapter two?

01:11:37

Back up the truck a little bit context is always helpful verse 13 But we should always give thanks to god for you brother and beloved by the lord

01:11:45

Because god has chosen you from the beginning for what for salvation through sanctification by the spirit and faith and the truth

01:11:52

It was for this he called you through our gospel that you may called you same people

01:11:57

He's talking to everyone there in thessalonica called you through our gospel that you may gain the glory of our lord.

01:12:02

Jesus christ So then brethren stand firm and hold to traditions which you were taught.

01:12:08

What are those traditions the gospel? Which have been delivered to them in the preaching of paul in their midst and the letter that he wrote to them before That's what it's about that's the context and then he's going to jump down to second thessalonians three

01:12:22

Verse six, which is only about three sentences later So it's still the same context

01:12:30

It's talking about the word of the lord spread rapidly be glorified And that we will be rescued from perverse and evil men for not all have faith for the lord is faithful He will strength to protect you from evil one.

01:12:39

We have confidence in the lord concerning that you are doing and will continue to do What we command? May the lord direct your hearts in the love of god in the steadfastness of christ now

01:12:49

We command you brethren in the name of lord. Jesus christ that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life

01:12:55

Not according to the tradition which you received from us So you have the traditions of verse 15

01:13:07

And now a couple of sentences later in very clear Exhortations to To christian living there is a problem in thessalonica.

01:13:18

There were people who were causing problems They were saying that that the lord has already returned and they're not working and etc

01:13:25

Etc. And in that context then a very discernible context

01:13:31

And in and in a context think about for a second think about what rome has defined on the basis of tradition

01:13:38

Okay now Keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life not according to tradition which you receive from us

01:13:45

That means every single believer in thessalonica knew all those traditions or these words are meaningless

01:13:52

How could you keep away from someone who didn't believe in the immaculate conception of mary since nobody ever heard? What about what it was?

01:14:00

You see when you turn this into some secret gnostic knowledge that's not going to be revealed for another 1500 years

01:14:06

You turn the whole text on its head It had an easily understandable meaning in the context in which it was given

01:14:16

Right and has nothing to do with what rome's trying to do with it or at least with what Tim staples is trying to do with it um so Slow down james you're talking too fast.

01:14:29

He says mark those who walk Contrary to the tradition

01:14:34

I command you in the name of the lord. Jesus christ have nothing to do with them

01:14:40

Right. That's pretty authoritative Saying if you don't walk in accordance with the tradition

01:14:48

You are marked and we will have nothing to do with you which in the context that paul provides

01:14:56

Means nothing to the roman catholic assertion at this point, but it sounds good It sounds good they get away with Every time

01:15:02

I turn on ewtn every time there's a call about the same texts Have we have we corrected them before on this you better believe it have we've done it in printed form?

01:15:11

Yes debate form. Yes radio programs. Yes over and it's all they've got It's all they have

01:15:21

And you need to be the one who's ready To point out what those texts are actually talking about these examples sound to you jeff of half a dozen or so Examples where our lord defends tradition where our lord defends tradition and what they want you to hear

01:15:38

Defending the traditions that we are presenting Not in the context that we've now revealed them that we've now shown them to be so There you go.

01:15:47

Um there's a rather I didn't mean to freeze it on a rather smug look from from tim, but um, i'm sure tim was quite pleased with But look he probably does that five six times a week five six times a week

01:16:03

And I don't respond five six times a week, but we certainly have been doing it for a very very very

01:16:09

Very very very long time. Hey, you want to do something weird here? Um this popped up from uh, now i've been told

01:16:19

Owen s -t -r -a -c -h -a -n chris Wrote to me chris arnson wrote to me

01:16:27

And said that he's had him on the program and that he pronounces that strand To which

01:16:34

I responded that he needs to spell it s -t -r -a -n Because i'm sorry, but especially a vowel and ch together

01:16:46

Ignoring them is an insult to the written form of the language And so i'm going to call upon owen stran

01:16:54

Um to start pronouncing his name properly Uh in the future if that's the case, I I don't know

01:16:59

Uh, but I I evidently mispronounced it because we've never spoken to each other what you got some people

01:17:05

I was just gonna say I couldn't quite put together the idea of weird and why you wanted to do something weird

01:17:11

And then you mentioned chris's name and now it makes sense. That's exactly right anytime we mentioned chris arnson

01:17:17

Uh, the term weird automatically comes along with that Yeah, but this actually doesn't have anything to do with that, um, he retweeted christopher rufo

01:17:29

Who that name? rings a bell Who says imagine if we had one person in congress who could make the case against critical race theory with such eloquence and passion?

01:17:39

Hats off to you. Kemi badinok and so, um

01:17:45

I I think it would make too much of a mess to try to get you to do this, but you'll have the audio Oh goodness as soon as I clicked it

01:17:52

It it went flying away as twitter always I hate when twitter does that I had it right there.

01:18:00

And okay, i'm back to it. Hold on stop and roll it back

01:18:07

What No, uh, this is I think this looks like it's from parliament.

01:18:12

All right ready got the got the volume up here we go What we are against is the teaching of contested political ideas as if they are accepted facts

01:18:22

We don't do this with communism. We don't do this with socialism. We don't do it with capitalism And I want to speak about a dangerous trend in race relations

01:18:30

That has come far too close to home to my life And this is the promotion of critical race theory an ideology that sees my blackness as victimhood and their whiteness as oppression

01:18:40

I want to be absolutely clear. This government stands unequivocally against critical race theory

01:18:46

Some schools have decided to openly support the anti -capitalist black lives matter group often fully aware that they have a statutory duty to be politically impartial

01:18:56

Black lives do matter. Of course they do but we know that the black lives matter movement capital b l m is political

01:19:04

I know this because at the height of the protest i've been told of white Black lives matters protesters calling and i'm afraid

01:19:13

I apologize for saying this word calling a black armed police officer guarding downing street a pet nigger

01:19:19

That is why we do not endorse that movement in on this side of the house It is a political movement and what would be nice would be for members on the opposite side to condemn

01:19:28

Many of the actions that we see this political movement instead of pretending that it is a completely wholesome

01:19:33

Anti -racist organization there is a lot of pernicious stuff that is being pushed and we stand against that We do not want to see teachers teaching their white pupils about white privilege and inherited racial guilt

01:19:44

And let me be clear any school which teaches these elements of critical race theory as fact

01:19:50

Or which promotes partisan political views such as defunding the police without offering a balanced treatment of opposing views

01:19:57

Is breaking the law Wow Uh evidently a a black

01:20:05

Um, well, this is the equalities minister, I just I just saw this one This is daryl harrison retreated

01:20:11

The equalities minister could not have been clearer black lives matter and critical race theory are political and do not belong in schools Teaching ideas such as white privilege as a factual reality is breaking the law so, um

01:20:21

I mentioned her name before it's not mentioned here, but evidently she is the equalities minister and she was speaking in uh in parliament and Yeah, it would be nice to have that in congress, wouldn't it?

01:20:34

Um I mean Donald trump has said it's bad too, but i'm sorry. Donald trump cannot speak with that kind of eloquence

01:20:41

No matter how hard he tries. He just he just can't that was very very well done. That is a a black woman

01:20:47

Uh speaking the truth and that's probably why daryl harrison who's a black man who speaks the truth

01:20:53

Was retweeting it. So that was the weird thing was I hadn't heard it. I wanted to hear it Yeah, that looks that looks right that's that sounds right.

01:21:01

Yeah Um, I hope that absolutely goes viral it needs to go viral and uh, and congratulations on that, okay

01:21:09

All right. I'm right on time. But one thing I did want to talk about And I even remembered that I want to talk about it uh al moeller on the briefing this morning talking about what's going on in france and You The french revolution

01:21:31

Was In the um in its time there in the 18th century

01:21:39

Very similar to what people want to see happen here in the united states It was a secular revolution it was an anti -religious not just anti Establishment powers, but it was an anti -religious establishment.

01:21:54

That's why you had setting up Statues to the goddess reason in christian churches and notre dame and things like that It didn't work well because it turned on itself very very quickly and the people who started it found themselves

01:22:07

Having their heads chopped off by the people who came after them And that's my hope for the revolution taking place in the united states to be honest with you.

01:22:14

It is pernicious. It is self -destructive Uh, and I I hope uh that it turns on itself very very very very quickly for the sake of my grandchildren great -grandchildren um, that's what we can pray for anyways, but the point is that that france, however never fully recovered

01:22:33

And france views itself as a secular nation And it's so plain to those of us outside of france

01:22:43

That secularism has become the religion of france And for a christian that makes perfect sense.

01:22:50

We're made in the image of god. We're going to worship Okay, so if you if you train a generation of people

01:22:58

That they are stardust that they are fizzing chemicals that they are random accidents

01:23:05

And that there is no transcendent meaning in this world Then the result is the state

01:23:12

Ends up becoming the only source that anyone can find For any kind of meaning any kind of objective reality, which god has made us to look for And so what has happened in france then as you have had massive immigration

01:23:29

You now have 10 to 11. That's always the critical mass 10 to 11 of the french population

01:23:38

Isn't french and doesn't want to be french. It's muslim And macron who is a committed secularist is seeking to introduce

01:23:54

Legislation because the state is the there are no there is no creator to give us inalienable rights

01:24:00

So all rights are alienable. They can be taken away because they're based upon the state I mean you all you're doing is regulating animals

01:24:10

You're regulating chaotic animals And so the state has to be big brother

01:24:17

And so the state recognizes macron recognizes That believing islam is a problem

01:24:27

I didn't I don't mean Believing in islam is a problem Islam that actually takes islam seriously is a problem not only because of its religious nature

01:24:37

But because as i've said so many times before islam is a religio political system or a political religious system depending on What percentage it is within a particular community

01:24:48

So which which where the emphasis lies depends on where they are in the community and they're getting that point Where the political aspect of islam begins to become more and more prevalent

01:25:00

So he recognizes that those who have come into france do not wish to assimilate to french culture

01:25:09

Which is secular And french culture, it's secularism says

01:25:16

That secular concepts will determine your behavior not religious concepts

01:25:25

So what's what does he want to do? He wants to stop all homeschooling As they have done in germany for years

01:25:33

You cannot homeschool in germany the state Has to have the opportunity of forming

01:25:40

The the worldview and thought process of each citizen That's the whole point

01:25:46

And so while he's aiming it specifically at islam that means christian parents cannot homeschool their children

01:25:55

Jewish parents cannot homeschool their children Muslim parents will not be able to homeschool their children the state

01:26:03

Must have that opportunity. He wants to create a french Version of islam

01:26:11

Which is a secular version Well as you and I both know there is there historically over the past two three centuries a secular

01:26:23

Form of judaism has developed sadly I mean, I know many a jewish jewish atheist

01:26:31

But we all know that that is no longer really judaism And I think

01:26:38

Every muslim i've ever debated Would stand next to me and say and agree with me

01:26:44

There is no such thing as a secular islam That that's no longer islam that you've that's not possible.

01:26:52

Just like there is no secular christianity There can be no christianity where jesus does not define the entirety of one's worldview

01:26:59

There is no christianity where the light that comes from the empty tomb does not determine everything that we see today

01:27:07

Let alone provide the lens by which we look back over world history You you you take those things away.

01:27:13

You don't have christianity anymore. And that's what you have In french in almost all french christianity

01:27:21

Oh, sure, there are the remnants still there there's there always be a remnant we we have remnant churches everywhere but the formalized uh forms of christianity in most of europe

01:27:37

Have been gutted of the heart of christianity Which is the fundamental assertion that god has invaded human history.

01:27:44

He actually rose from the dead and that jesus is lord overall that no, that's

01:27:50

That that may be in the creeds, but you know, come on who really takes any of that seriously No one really believes there was a flood or a resurrection

01:27:57

Come on, we need to we need to be we need to be up with the with the current world, you know And so that's what you get.

01:28:04

That's what you get and so when a secular state encounters a believing religion

01:28:14

There cannot be peace And there won't be and the the question is who's going to back down first?

01:28:23

And macron recognizes this is for the heart and soul of secular france

01:28:32

He he recognizes these two systems cannot exist side by side We have to enforce our secular worldview upon all citizens for france to continue in the way we want france to continue

01:28:49

And the secular paradise that would that would come about if everybody would just accept our worldview

01:28:58

We all know that can never happen It can never happen because man

01:29:04

Is not a bunch of fizzing chemicals um, there is something in the sky above We're not just animals and so every

01:29:15

Every political system That tries to force us into that. That's why they have to have your children

01:29:20

And that's why every one of you i'll say this one more time I know some of you don't like the fact that I dress politics, but I have to because it's theological

01:29:30

If you vote a certain way in 2020 a

01:29:36

You won't get to unvote that way in 2024. Let me just point that out to you If you go that direction, this is the last free election that you will have

01:29:46

Look at california. Hello. Somebody wake up. Look at california.

01:29:51

That's what they want to do You can vote all you want in california. There's only one party in california to vote for That's what's going to happen in the united states, but secondly what you need to understand other than all the obvious worldview issues about Transgenderism and abortion and infanticide and the prevailing of marriage and everything else

01:30:16

You need to understand that when you vote for Proto -marxists

01:30:22

A worldview comes with that And if you vote a certain way in 2020, you just need to understand

01:30:31

The state will own your children The state will be coming after your children

01:30:38

The first thing that will go in a harris administration remember I am convinced joe biden is a is a

01:30:45

He's just he's taking up space There ain't nobody there ain't nobody there In a harris administration

01:30:53

There will be no homeschooling. Oh sure. We'll have the lawsuits But once you pack the court

01:31:00

You're guaranteeing what the end result of that's going to be Because the lawsuits will eventually get to the supreme court and once you pack the court

01:31:07

And put all your mind numb zombies on the court that know what exactly they're supposed to do That's the end of that.

01:31:13

So there might be a short delay But we will adopt the european and especially the german model of forced state education of children

01:31:26

It's going to happen. That's what you're voting for That's what you're doing And I want this to exist

01:31:33

I want people to download this And have it available on their hard drive. So when it happens and I say

01:31:38

I told you so I can point to where I told you so Because there are other people in big eva.

01:31:45

They're telling you Don't worry about that You know, you've got the freedom to vote to have your children taken over by the state

01:31:56

You know as long as they as long as they're given free food It's not free obviously

01:32:03

But you know as long as that happens, then that's what jesus would want I only hope that someday

01:32:14

The clarity will be granted to us to be able to look back and and to see

01:32:20

Um, obviously my my ultimate hope is oh lord deliver us We we need we need revival we need

01:32:28

We we need your spirit to move in our land. Um, because we're about to commit suicide um

01:32:36

I'm, sorry Yeah, harris o 'rourke. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, that's true.

01:32:42

There's no two ways about it. No two ways about it Whoo, I was I was

01:32:47

I was honestly, so you remember our theology matters. I was honestly, um

01:32:52

Going to try to get this done in an hour and I failed miserably once again um, jeff, uh preached on uh on uh, messianic stuff, uh on sunday

01:33:06

And went an hour and 15 minutes And so he's asked me to preach on sunday

01:33:12

And my first response was I will try to keep it under an hour and 15 minutes uh, i'll actually shoot for about 55 actually, but Uh, anyways,

01:33:22

I will be preaching on sunday and we do facebook live that on the reliability of scripture if you're interested in something like that, but I went long today and But it's the dividing line and I can do whatever

01:33:33

I want because I didn't say how long I was going to be going anyways So thanks for watching the program today. Lord. Willen will be back later in the week on thursday.