February 23, 2017 Show with Jeremy Walker on “Passing Through: Pilgrim Life in the Wilderness”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 23rd day of February 2017

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I'm delighted to have back on the program as my guest Jeremy Walker Who is pastor of Maiden Bower Baptist Church of Crawley in West Sussex, England?

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He is an author and blogger at Reformation 21 and the Wanderer. He's addressing his book

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Passing through pilgrim life in the wilderness. It's my honor and privilege to have you back on iron sharpens iron

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Jeremy Walker And we have in studio once again

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My co -host the Reverend buzz Taylor, it's great to have you back in the studio buzz. Thank you Bad penny you seem to be more like a sack of counterfeit money

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Okay This is because I go to the Presbyterian church he says these things

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But I am delighted as I said to have you back let me read a description of This book that we are going to be discussing today.

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I think it might be helpful to our listeners As 21st century

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Christians, we must relate to the world. But the question is how do we relate to it? Some Christians are scared others are simply bewildered and still others capitulate to the spirit of the age in Passing through pilgrim life in the wilderness

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Pastor Jeremy Walker presents the biblical perspective that Christians are pilgrims passing through this fallen world

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Who must cultivate the spirit of holy? separation alongside

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Holy engagement as they serve Christ in all their interactions unless we embrace this identity

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We will lose our way Reminding us that we need the Word of God as our map and the

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Spirit of Christ as our compass Pastor Walker clearly presents principles for holy engagement with the world and separation from it for pilgrims on their way home

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Seeking to glorify the God of their salvation every step of the way this description that the publisher

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Reformation Heritage Books provides Reminds me very much of a sermon that my my very first pastor is a born -again

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Christian Mike Gadosh, who is now the founder of and president of solid ground

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Christian books one of the key sponsors of this program Years ago back in the 1980s or 1990s.

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He preached a powerful message titled Jesus Christ friend of sinners yet separate from sinners

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This seems to be the heart of what you're addressing in this book. Is it not? In the world yet not of the world and Before I even go any further

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I think it'd be also a good idea for our listeners who did not hear you previously because as I have mentioned off the air

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To you, it seems that iron sharpens iron is gaining listeners new listeners every single week that I'm aware of They're perhaps even gaining new listeners every day

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And we also have a whole new audience of listeners who hear us on 90 .1

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FM in the Lake City, Florida area Because we are on morning drive 8 to 10 a .m.

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And also Evening time 8 to 10 p .m So we have a whole new group of people listening to the station and a pre -recorded version of the program

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But tell our listeners something About the church where you pastor the

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Maiden Bower Baptist Church of Crawley in West Sussex, England sure, we're

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In Crawley as you say, which is a town a new town south of London next to Gatwick Airport and the town itself has about 120 or so thousand people and Maiden Bower is one of the neighborhoods that make up the town of Crawley and we

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Meet in the center of Maiden Bower. We're a small congregation Reformed Baptist Church or particular

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Baptist Church Calvinistic Baptist Church Confessional Baptist Church always say you can use whatever label helps to put us in the right pigeonhole

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We've we've got a Two elders two deacons of whom I'm one of the one of the elders

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And the church has been in existence for just over 40 years constituted 40 years

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And my co -pastor is actually my father But he is shortly retiring he's

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Getting to the point where he He needs a bit more breathing space as it were. So Yeah, we've we've got a lot of opportunities here in Crawley in terms of gospel preaching.

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We've got some real encouragements and blessings that we enjoy as a church together with the

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The the usual challenges in fact when anybody asks me how things are going my my my standard answer

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And I don't think it's certainly not intended to be a good one. Is it it's kingdom life in a fallen world

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Which isn't that far off the title of the book in fact? Tell us something about your blog

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Reformation 21 and the Wanderer Well, the Wanderer was my personal blog

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I started that a number of years ago And out of that came an invitation to contribute from time to time to Reformation 21, which is a blog that's contributed to by a number of different people so Generally speaking.

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It's things like book reviews short essays snippets of information quotations of interest and Then the

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Reformation 21 stuff tends to be slightly longer articles or short essays with some more developed book reviews from time to time, so It's it's really stuff of stuff of interest to me.

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I hope will be of use to others How did you come up with that title the

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Wanderer? Reminiscent of Dionne in the Belmonts. I don't know if you ever remembered that song from the 50s or perhaps early 60s the

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Wanderer Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad to say that that's absolutely nothing to do There's a couple of reasons one was a poem that I studied at university another one is the connection with the

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Pilgrim's Progress by Jim Zaligrey and Also the fact that when

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I when I set it up it was it was pretty much me just one wandering through the blogosphere wandering through the online world and to some extent the world as it is so There's a little summary a record of travels combats and labors as I walk through many regions and countries in the wilderness of this world of a pilgrim and stranger

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Well, very good description and I'm also glad to hear that you're not affiliated with a

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Latin right traditionalist Roman Catholic newspaper of the same name the Wanderer Although I do thank the

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Wanderer although they did not promote my Most recent debate for some reason that I don't know they used to Always promote the debates that I would organize

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For over a decade they promoted them every year between my friend Dr. James R. White who was a Reformed Baptist and and all of the

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Roman Catholic opponents that he faced in the debating arena Every year when I would organize these in the

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Wanderer would always faithfully promote them, but they did not do that for me this time I don't know why I did what had a debate recently here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania Between a

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Reformed Baptist and a Roman Catholic and they did not Wish to cover it. But anyway, that's that's a far in a field from what we're talking about today

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This is an interesting topic that we have that every

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Christian If they are serious With about their faith and if they're not serious about their faith, they're not really a

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Christian But we all face these dilemmas in our everyday lives on How to be in the world and not of the world

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Tell us Because of the fact that we do have listeners that are Some of which some of whom are brand new believers some of whom are not even

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Christians at all What do you mean by pilgrim life? of course a novice to the

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Christian faith or an outsider might immediately have images of people with Tall black hats with buckles on them having a meal with Native American Indians.

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So what do you mean by a pilgrim life? Yeah, sure. That's that's an assumption that I I hadn't hadn't made the connection with Pilgrims in that way but perhaps if you like from an old world perspective the

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Potential confusion might also be that very often pilgrimages if they're understood at all would be associated with some kind again of Roman Catholic piety a way of getting some kind of credit but I think the the key idea behind the book and it is again related to John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress For your

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American heroes listeners Pilgrim's Progress, of course Well, since he was an

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Englishman, I guess it is progress I'll stick with that.

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Otherwise, I'll start making mistakes The the fact that we are described in the scriptures as pilgrims or sojourners we are we are citizens of heaven and Yet we are resident at this point in time here on earth

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And that's not a weird alien life theory. It has to do with our spiritual identity

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It has to do with our place of real belonging where our lives are hidden with Christ in God if we are

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Christians and that means that our Relationship to the world has fundamentally changed and we are passing through this world.

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But our home is elsewhere, so it's really a reference to the fact that as believers

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We are in the phrase you've already used. We are in the world, but not of it We we are living here

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Participating here witnessing here and yet our real identity and our real fear is

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Is is a heavenly one if we we belong to a kingdom that is not of this world And so the the pilgrim motif

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That Bunyan uses in his book and that is present there in the scriptures in various ways

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Which I think has become an overlooked notion That's that's what lies behind the use of that language in the book

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What do you mean in your chapter by understanding the environment? Well the the real issue for for so many of us before we even

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Get on with with all the other things if you like that we're supposed to be doing is knowing Where we actually are so it's important as Christians that we we get to grips with the

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The environment we're in the world as it really is We think in terms of the world's

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Hatred of Christians, and that's not too strong a word It's the language that the

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Lord Jesus himself uses in John 15 18 to 21 It doesn't necessarily mean that everybody's out with pitchforks and torches trying to Find us and kill us

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I It might mean that in some instances. Yeah, it's fundamentally an ethical enmity a

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Distaste a rebellion against God as our King and Christ as our master and therefore

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An attitude that embraces those who follow him faithfully So that chapter

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I'm really trying to work out In terms of the whole the whole context That we are not at home in this world it's described as we were in the present evil age

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We are in a wilderness not a garden it's an obstacle course not a park

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It's a battleground not a playground unless we we realize that this isn't home

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And we're always going to struggle to have the right disposition Toward the world and those who are in it and this is a very

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Captivating title know the enemy I know that I have heard from people who are experts in the

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Puritans that very often I don't know if this was a universal truth, but very often when a

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Puritan was being trained for the ministry During his training he would sometimes be called upon without any advance notice to get up and give a

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Convincing defense of what an enemy of Christianity believes Because of the fact of their they put a great importance on knowing what the enemy believed in order to refute the enemy but anyway, if you could

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Continue with your explanation of what you meant by that Sure, well in this case the the enemy ultimately primarily would be would be

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Satan and I think again that this is

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This is perhaps not something that we particularly consider at least in the modern West I think somewhere

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Martin Lloyd -Jones talks about the fact that our ignorance of the devil our

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Lack of concern or regard for him Is is a great danger to us a tendency to dismiss him to overlook his his person and his work

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His his malevolence toward the church You know,

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I think There's there's an as well as a weird spirituality.

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There's also an anti -supernatural ism that Characterizes a lot of the the world as I see it and as I interact with it and The idea that there is a devil that there is an adversary of our souls that he is against the church in particular

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That we're not just dealing with Vague forces with a personal enemy and we need to know that we need to know him

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We need to know the wilds of the devil. We shouldn't be ignorant of his devices to use the old -fashioned language

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These are the sorts of things that if we if we neglect them or we're careless with them

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We will be will be overtaken if the enemy goes around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour and We deny the fact that he even exists and devouring will become a whole lot easier

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And Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question If I if I'm sounding like I'm playing the devil's advocate understand

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I'm trying to second guess the way some of these words will be coming across to our listeners and So it's not an attack.

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It's it's it's I think people will have these kinds of questions and that first of all From what

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I'm hearing. How can you not be of the world and yet and we don't want to become over scrupulous

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We don't want to become legalistic It makes it very difficult to know

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Well, what can we do? What can't we do? Is this association good or bad?

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How do you determine that? Yeah, that's that's that's a question

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I try and deal with in the first two chapters of the book Because when we use the language of the world it doesn't always mean precisely the same thing

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And it's important to bear those distinctions in mind Now you could you could split any number of hairs on that but my characterization involves three broad strokes

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There's the world in the creative sense the things that are made by God There's the world in the extensive sense.

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It's the people who are in it and then there's the world in the ethical sense of a moral sense that's language that the

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Apostle John often uses and the sense there is of the the world of the and As the system of people and things it is ranged against God in rebellion against him

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So if you talk about being in the world, but not of the world If you use the language of the world in in a biblical sense

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You've got to be asking in what way are we using that language? Because God made the world and everything that is in it

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He made it initially very good And even though it's fallen we know that the world, you know, this created order is crying out for redemption

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It's waiting for the adoption of the sons when it itself will be released. So if you

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If you think wrongly of the world at that point, you're going to confuse yourself So my point is that we need to understand the various ways in which this language is used

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In order to relate to the created world the people around us and the the world again is this sort of ethical system that is against God and We need to understand how and why and at what points we can

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Cultivate on the one hand a holy engagement and on the other a holy separation that if we

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Pursue just the one or just the other Then we're likely to get out of line out of whack if you like That To use language that I remember seeing

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I think in a commentary somewhere. There are too many churches that stop being thermometers

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Thermostats rather to regulate the temperature of the world around us We become thermometers that simply register the temperature of the world around us.

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We we go along with the world We we go with the flow and we become like the world

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And therefore we're ineffective in reaching the people that we need to speak the gospel to on the other hand you can say right we're gonna

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Batten down the hatches. We're gonna Lock the doors. We're going to hammer large pieces of wood crookedly across all the windows

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Keep everyone and everything at arm's length at which point you actually cease being salt and light in the world because you cannot bring the glory and the goodness of God to bear and So to be in the world, but not of the world

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I think you're actually using the words world there in two different senses already that we we exist

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Alongside other creatures in the world that God has made we are in the world in that sense

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But we are not of the world in the sense that we do not march to the tune of a world that is in Rebellion against God in that moral and ethical sense

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So that's the that's the meaning I think that we have to to take into account or the meanings

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When we're using that kind of language Now going back to knowing the enemy the chapter on Satan I wanted to give a quick plug that I'm sure you wouldn't mind since the book is

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Published by the same publisher that brought your book into print Jeremy Reformation heritage books has an excellent little book by dr.

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Joel R beaky called fighting Satan Knowing his weaknesses strategies and defeat and that's not only in a paperback form, but also in an audio book so so anybody listening who might want to also investigate that Subject can go to heritage books org

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Heritage books org where you can also find information about passing through pilgrim life in the wilderness by our guest

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Jeremy Walker, but Just I thought I'd bring that up because it is an excellent little book that dr.

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Beaky has Written and how did you get affiliated to begin with with Reformation heritage books you being over there in England?

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Well the I'd known Dr. Beaky, I'd heard him preach a couple of times and when

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I was Working on what became my first published book, which was a portrait of Paul which is co -authored with Rob Ventura The publishers that we were looking at Reformation heritage

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Were interested in the book. They were happy to publish it and in a subsequent conversation They were asking is there anything else you'd like to work on and I gave them a couple of suggestions and this was one that they were

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Interested in they thought it was relevant. They thought it was Would be potentially helpful and so That was where really that relationship sprung up.

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I've got some good friends who work in various parts of the organization

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A Puritan reformed the the books as a whole. So in many ways it was a it was a good fit

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They've been very good to me. Yeah, it's interesting that you providentially mentioned a Rob Ventura.

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His name came up yesterday because he is the editor of the in the planned seven volume series on systematic theology by Greg Nichols and We interviewed

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Greg yesterday on volume one of his lectures on systematic theology

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And so it was interesting that Rob Ventura his name came up Yeah, I can let you know that the church where I am a member

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Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania very recently was Highlighting passing through pilgrim life in the wilderness as their book of the month where they were offering a very

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Largely Discounted price on the book from our book room at the church every month they highlight a specific title and offer a very big discount and they so that that the majority of the congregation will be able to purchase it and I just wanted to let you know that they thought that the elders thought that highly of your book that they wanted to Highlight that book

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That's always a real encouragement to hear those sorts of things You know that the books are written.

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It's not quite drawing a bow at a venture, but you're not quite sure What what value others will find in it?

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You're written you're writing the thing because you want it to be useful You want to be a means of blessing to others?

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So it's it's it's great to know that that is actually the case and by the way anybody listening who wants to hear

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My interview with dr. Joel Beeky on fighting Satan you can go to our archive at iron sharpens iron radio .com

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Iron sharpens iron radio .com and in the far right corner of the website the top right corner there is the past programs and Podcasts that you click on and in the search engine you could type in Beeky be as in boy e e ke and that will be one of the interviews that comes up that you can hear

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Now this Oh, yeah, sure. Sure. Definitely. Yeah, I mean one one of I think a

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Book that is in effect a medicine cabinet for the soul, especially in this regard is by Thomas Brooks Yes, the

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Puritan banner of truth Yeah, you'll not be able to interview him, unfortunately Precious remedies against Satan's devices.

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Yes, that's an excellent He takes up that language from into the

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Corinthians We are not ignorant of Satan's devices or his wild his plots and schemes and he works his way through some of the typical schemes or devices that Satan has to undermine assault

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Tempt Believers and then for each of those he presents a number of biblical remedies

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And that that book as I say that that book that is a pastoral treasure house and it's the kind of book that if if you're wrestling with something whether it may be sort of despondency or particular assault to to sin that It it's as I say, you can go to it like a medicine cabinet

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You can go in you can look for the right diagnosis and then you can take the right medicine.

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It is a wonderful Pastorally sensitive and insightful volume that helps us not only to know the enemy but to respond to him yes, that was one of the

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I Can remember the earliest books as a new Christian that my pastor at the time strongly recommended to the congregation

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Precious remedies against Satan's devices by banner of truth and you can get that Through one of our sponsors

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Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service calm

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CV BBS calm and they have a Quite a vast selection of banner of truth titles and that is one of them that I typically see in there

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Even when I walk in to browse to see what's available But we're gonna be going to a break right now

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If you have a question for pastor Jeremy Walker on passing through pilgrim life in the wilderness our

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Email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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And please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence If you live outside of the

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USA and I think I'll ask you this question before we go to the break So you have time to mill it over or mull it over in your mind pastor

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Jeremy, but I wanted to know why you think it is that we who are reformed Tend to shy away from in -depth discussions about Satan we may mention him and may refer to things as Being from Satan and being satanic and things like that But it is

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I almost sense a fear of reform people to be Too much involved with the discussion on Satan fearing that they will be too much

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Resembling the Pentecostal and charismatic world who bring up Satan with quite regularity with regularity and frequency

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But anyway, we're going to a break right now And if you could answer that when we return, that'd be great

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Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away

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Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor Welcome back.

33:08

This is Chris Arnsin if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is

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Pastor Jeremy Walker and we were discussing his book Passing Through Pilgrim Life in the

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Wilderness If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Jeremy Walker Our email address is

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ChrisArnsin at gmail .com ChrisArnsin at gmail .com ChrisArnsin at gmail .com

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and please give us at least your first name City and state and country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA as does a pastor Jeremy Walker Who lives in the UK?

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And if you need to remain anonymous for some particular reason Perhaps you're disagreeing with your own pastor on something.

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We understand and we will grant Your request to remain anonymous, but before the break

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Pastor Jeremy in light of a chapter of your book on knowing the enemy referring to Satan himself

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We or should I say I brought up the Question as to why you think many reformed

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Christians shy away from the subject of Satan Although he may be brought up very briefly in terms of saying that Something is from Satan or something is satanic and that kind of a thing

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But there is not really a lot of discussion. It seems where he is being

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Viewed as a real entity at an actual real entity that is roaming about wherever we are and so on not that he's on the present like our

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Lord, but there's there seems to be a dearth of Discussion and preaching regarding Satan and perhaps you have experienced something different, but that's what

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I've experienced If you could explain your thoughts on that. I First framed the question that that I think is helpful over regard to the charismatic and Pentecostal Christians Yeah, I mean,

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I think it's a relatively novel problem historically If you certainly go back

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Probably certainly pre -enlightenment you've got a very ready understanding of this

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But then even if you go into periods like You read the

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Spurgeon sermons, for example there's no lack of an awareness of those sorts of things, but I do

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I do wonder if Part of the problem is simply that we're not biblically minded enough. I Wonder if part of it is because with some people we are

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Somehow and and not rightly embarrassed About the

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Supernaturalism that is an inherent part of biblical faith and life but I also do do wonder if perhaps because of the the way in which many charismatics

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Not not all I should say but many charismatics and Pentecostals They they have either claimed a monopoly on this kind of language

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Or perhaps some of them would be abusing some of these ideas and then there's also the

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The danger that when we are called cessationists if we're reformed

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Christians, and we believe that some of those Those apostolic operations of the

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Holy Spirit have ceased that we almost say well, that's fine We'll walk away from all such things but to to understand the devil as a personality

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To see something of the way in which he works To know his devices as we've already said and to be equipped to fight against him

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That is part of a full orbs biblical Christianity And there are there are some modern books.

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There's a gentleman by the name of Fred Leahy Who's oh, yeah in a couple of books on this topic.

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That's also a matter of truth. I believe Correct, yeah good accessible modern

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Careful scriptural studies of some of these aspects of spiritual warfare It's It's it's something that we should deal with carefully certainly and and it's something that I think there is always the danger of reading perhaps a bit too much into the white spaces or just coming up with themes and Suggestions and theories

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But there is biblical data that will help us to analyze this accurately to think about it carefully and to respond to it righteously and if we are

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As we were claimed to be in the reformed and evangelical tradition if we say that we are

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Biblically minded with the word of God is our rule of faith and life Excuse me

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Then we have to give full weight to this and I think it will make us healthier if we do so and What?

38:25

Level of power. Do you believe Satan actually has in this earth? obviously We know that there were quite a number of things that Satan was able to do

38:35

To Job and the account in the Old Testament, but every single step of the way everything he did he needed

38:43

Permission from God to do it. But if you could explain what you think Satan can actually do in on this earth today

38:51

Yeah, well, he seems that his power I think we could say is is substantial but limited

38:57

He is described some of the titles. He is given the prince of the power of the air the

39:04

God of this world small G That there is there is undoubtedly

39:10

A Real and effective and mighty spiritual malevolence that is exercised by adversary

39:24

But as you've made very clear yourself, it is not it is mighty but not almighty

39:30

He is potent but not omnipotent The the example of Job is always a helpful one that Satan had to come before God and had to seek and obtain permission in order to operate in the way that he did and The Lord set the bounds on what he could and couldn't do at any particular stage

39:50

Which ought to be a great encouragement to the people of God. We have to remember that Christ has led captivity captive That he has conquered the devil in the cross that he has overcome him and that he is now

40:03

He is bound the strong man in that sense that we are in part the spoils of his victory if we're

40:11

Christians and then the the exhortations in the New Testament to stand in the power of the

40:18

Lord to stand in the strength of his might that That means that as believers in Christ That by God's grace in us in the work of the

40:28

Holy Spirit We we do not need to be overcome we will not succumb to these

40:34

Assaults of the wicked one and I think one vital point that needs to be made over and over again

40:40

But if we're believers and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, then we cannot be Overcome by Satan in in a way that I think too many believers

40:52

Perhaps especially of a more charismatic inclination. There seems to be some fear that Christians can be

41:00

Taken over might use language of possession By by by deep demons if the

41:06

Spirit of Christ is within us Then the the wicked one cannot be in that way

41:12

So I think those are some that's some of the biblical care that I would immediately draw on to answer that question

41:18

You know, it's interesting that you spoke very truthful biblical and wise words there

41:24

But it's interesting how I saw those very things that you said twisted and misused in my opinion

41:31

Years ago back in I think it was the 1990s the

41:38

There was a church on Long Island, New York where I lived a very large church charismatic well known for Well known amongst biblically sound churches as being a theologically dangerous place who would have the worst of the worst of false preachers there and charlatan televangelists and so on word of faith

42:02

Preachers and so on and Rodney Howard Brown was speaking there Rodney Howard Brown who is most famous for the laughing revival the

42:10

Toronto blessing who I think is originally from South Africa if I'm not mistaken and My general manager of a radio station that I worked for at the time called me up and he said

42:21

Chris I want you to come with me to see a face -to -face in -person

42:27

Rodney Howard Brown because I really want to know Directly from the source what this guy is all about because they've been trying to purchase air time from us and I want to know

42:36

And when I went there Rodney Howard Brown Took a different tactic than I've ever seen from a

42:43

Pentecostal or charismatic preacher before he came out on the stage and he said

42:49

I'm so sick and tired of Pentecostals and charismatics trying to pray demons out the room when

42:57

I am preaching at a church I don't need them praying demons out the room because when I walk into a room the demons scatter and if you're

43:06

Worried that you're gonna be demon possessed Don't don't you worry about it at all because God's people can't be demon possessed and he was going on and on and on about That and you know, that is true what you said

43:17

Jeremy but he was speaking to an audience of thousands of people get letting them

43:23

Rest and relax with the safety in thinking that they could not be demon possessed and yet there could have been hundreds and hundreds of lost people there and then he started to Manifest what he would call this gift of the spirit of laughter or whatever he was calling it where he was laughing hysterically and so was the

43:46

Musical band on stage. It was almost as if he was letting people or Convincing people to be at ease and open themselves up to demonic activity if you follow what

43:58

I'm saying Did that make sense to you that he was perhaps? Trying to get them to be not afraid of any kind of supernatural occurrence that may occur when it could very well have been demonic

44:11

You know, I've never been exposed to that particular Circuit in that way

44:18

But I would be very wary of the kind of boast that Any any individual humanly speaking has that kind of personal authority over demons

44:35

You know, I'm not trying to make a like -for -like equivalence But I do think of the sons of Sceva who tried to cast out demons in the in the name of Christ without knowing

44:45

Christ It's yeah, this is this this is this is dangerous

44:52

Yeah, we're not looking I think I say in the book somewhere Yeah, we're not looking for demons under the bed

44:57

But at the same time we recognize the fact that there are these these spiritual forces of darkness in the heavenly places and They Know their their might and their malevolence means that we must take them

45:13

Seriously, and we can only do that if we are resting in Christ and under the influence and submitting ourselves to his

45:21

Holy Spirit and and that is that is a completely different order of of of power

45:30

To to the demonic realm. I remember a story that was told

45:37

I think it might have been by Martin Lloyd -Jones again about his time in in Wales in the church at Sandfields and there was a woman in the town who was a medium and she was

45:52

Trafficking with dark powers and I can't remember whether much you walk past the building or came into the building at first if I remember rightly she was eventually converted and one of the things that she commented on with regard to the the ministry of the gospel under the power of the

46:12

Holy Spirit was That she recognized that there was power in this place, but that it was a clean power

46:20

That there was it was it was a completely different thing in Terms of its moral content to the the spiritual powers with which she had to do

46:31

Well, I think we have to recognize these spiritual realities and I think we need to be extremely wary of people as you say who

46:42

Make make unbiblical claims of authority or who? Perhaps I Don't know maybe think of all power as power and do not understand the difference between if you like clean and filthy power

46:58

Or on the other hand as you mentioned the possibility that that some of the things that people cultivate

47:06

Believing them to be holy spiritual operations may in fact be demonic influences

47:12

Where these these are these are not matters to be handled lightly

47:19

Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania wants to know if your guest believes in Due to modern -day demonic possession

47:30

I Know people who are thoroughly Orthodox and reformed and Calvinistic I know

47:38

John MacArthur believes in modern -day demon possession and there are other

47:43

Folks that I know who are reformed. I know John is a dispensationalist, but he's a thoroughgoing

47:49

Calvinist. I interviewed a Lutheran who Believes in demonic possession who is not a

47:58

Sensationalist he doesn't use the topic like many in the charismatic community might

48:06

Sensationalize those kinds of things But anyway, if you could at least give us as much of an answer as you care to on that question

48:13

Yeah, I think I think the problem the difficulty is it's a fine and a valid question

48:19

The difficulty with it is that if if one simply says yes without Qualifying that and defining some of the answers that as you say, there is so much sensationalized or unscriptural

48:34

Nonsense at times it is written about this I have a number of books on my shelves that I think are profoundly

48:40

Unhelpful on this topic because they either treat it very carelessly very lightly frivolously almost or that it's it's it's it reads more like human invention and Something more like out of fantasy or science fiction novels and it does out of the scriptures

48:57

We we we are if Christians we are biblical supernaturalists from what

49:06

I can discern in terms of my Personal understanding of the Word of God my personal experience and the experience of others

49:14

I don't I don't doubt that there is direct demonic influence and operation

49:22

I would insist again that believers cannot be possessed in the way that perhaps your

49:29

Your caller your listener is is referring to but that I have no doubt that these forces of darkness in the heavenlies are real and Operative and that we are called upon to to contend against them in our own hearts and lives and in in different places and at different times

49:56

Yes, I think that there may be and have been Indications of that kind of demonic activity.

50:03

I should also say that there are others who believe that their interpretation of what it means for Christ who finished his work and some of those things indicate that that is

50:15

That is not any longer the case But I am I'm inclined to think otherwise yes, there is

50:23

I don't know if you know of the The ministry called to every tribe

50:32

But they are a Calvinistic ministry that seeks to bring the gospel to Regions on the globe that are unevangelized who have had very little or no

50:46

Communication with evangelists and missionaries in any significant way prior to their arriving on the scene and Brother David Sitton who runs that ministry who is a thoroughgoing

51:01

Calvinist He believes with certainty that demonic possession is occurring

51:08

Especially in areas like I just mentioned where there is a

51:15

Superstition on steroids if you will and pagan worship and idolatry and all those kinds of things going on Yeah, I I think again.

51:24

I think that the biblical data suggests that in such an environment That those kinds of that kind of demonic activity is likely to be more clearly

51:36

Evident and perhaps more immediately operative I think when it comes to the modern

51:43

West I Don't think we should presume that it isn't happening. And in fact,

51:48

I suspect that Well, I look at it this way. What what is what is

51:55

What is the most? Effective lie that the father of lies could propagate it is that he's not there that that would that would blind us and I think in the the

52:08

You know your people today they believe in a kind of God but not a devil They believe in heaven, but they don't want to think about hell and So, you know the the devil almost has been completely sidelined.

52:23

He's been overlooked In some ways, I think you could argue that I could play into his hands, but as the modern

52:30

West perhaps degenerates more and more into paganism and pagan practices

52:37

Then perhaps we we will start to see some of those things more clearly in our midst but again, that's

52:44

I wouldn't want to you know, I I Don't think I can give chapter and verse as it were for some of those thoughts

52:53

But you're making the kinds of connections that I think as you mentioned David Sitton has done and that other missionaries and evangelists in similar environments have made

53:04

I Think that we we ought to take those sorts of questions extremely seriously

53:11

And in fact if anybody wants to look up David Sitton's website, it's to every tribe org to every tribe org

53:18

We're going to a station break right now and we're going to allow our guest Jeremy Walker to switch phone lines since he's calling from overseas and We would welcome your emails at Chris Arnson at gmail .com

53:31

Chris Arnson at gmail .com if you have a question for pastor Jeremy Walker, and please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

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Yeah, those are really nice Bibles, too yes, and the ones that we are currently giving away are compact

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Bibles that are Perfect for sticking in a briefcase or a coat pocket or a woman's purse

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They're not too small where you can't read the printing without a magnifying glass and they are black

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I mean you talk about putting them in a woman's purse a guy might not be interested in one then Well, they're not actually the the newest batch are navy blue.

01:05:45

Oh Yeah, the newest batch are navy blue but they're probably still some of some of the black ones in the batch that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service is shipping out to our

01:05:55

First time listeners, but thank you for for your patience with me in regard to that If you just tuned us in our guest today is

01:06:06

Jeremy Walker we are discussing his book passing through Pilgrim life in the wilderness if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own

01:06:19

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:06:24

and please give us your first name city and state and country of residence If you live outside the USA, by the way, Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania has won a free copy of The book that we are giving away

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Passing through compliments of Reformation Heritage books and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS comm who ship out all of our winners their free

01:06:47

Bibles and books and DVDs and CDs and whatever else we give away so, thank you

01:06:53

Susan for the excellent question and We have another listener We have

01:07:00

Joe in Slovenia Slovenia Who has a question for you pastor Jeremy, please ask pastor

01:07:05

Jeremy to react to brother Paul washers quote from today's pulpit and pen article in Which he warns us about pastors who are compromising the truth with worldliness and here's his quote

01:07:20

From Paul washer. Let me tell you something on the day of judgment.

01:07:25

Don't worry about the atheists Don't fear the prostitute or the murderer you want to fear for somebody on the day of judgment you fear for a large number of Evangelical pastors who have departed from the

01:07:40

Word of God and are parading the church in a dress in a garb

01:07:46

That God never intended her to wear and now we go back to Joe from Slovenia's question

01:07:52

How do we save others snatching them out of the fire and on Some have mercy with fear hating even the garment polluted by the flesh

01:08:05

I'm sorry. I had you on mute accidentally pastor Jeremy. Did you hear that? Yeah, I guess

01:08:20

I guess it is because he wants to know the first question is basically your reaction to what that quote To that quote by Paul washer.

01:08:26

Well, absolutely. I love Paul washer I just heard him preach in Atlanta, Georgia the g3 conference

01:08:31

But your reaction to that quote and also the follow -up question that Joe from Slovenia had

01:08:38

Well, I'd certainly want to be careful. I don't know the context of that quote

01:08:45

And I I'd want to be careful about sort of commenting one way or the other without Understanding in what context it was said

01:08:52

Yes, I understand that if you from from what is said

01:08:59

From what you've read out It seems at least likely to be in keeping with some of the

01:09:07

New Testament warnings about false teachers those who lead others astray the people who are sought out by those who have ears that want tickling and And also

01:09:20

Christ's very sober warning as part of a sermon on the Mount that there will be in the last day those who

01:09:27

Speak to him in those tones of familiarity Lord Lord, and he will say depart from me.

01:09:34

I never knew you you who practice lawlessness So I think that on the assumption that For washer is is speaking in that kind of context about those kinds of issues

01:09:49

It seems to me in keeping with some of the distinct scriptural warnings about false teachers and their false teaching

01:09:56

Who would seek to lead lead others astray? Pastors are not safe from hellfire just because they are pastors.

01:10:08

No, there's no inherent virtue In that sense there's no

01:10:15

Ordination for want of a better word is no guarantee of salvation

01:10:20

Isn't there even if even isn't there even a threat of greater judgment if they are false teachers? yeah,

01:10:26

I mean the Teachers are told that that they have That they're being held to a high standard

01:10:33

Yeah Words are powerful things and if we either take that to ourselves when we're not called to it or or worse

01:10:41

Enter into it and take it take it to ourselves as a means of either feathering our own nests or Leading others astray or getting power for ourselves or whatever.

01:10:52

It might be Then yeah that that is Both both wicked and foolish if I can make the distinction in that way well, thank you

01:11:06

Joe in Slovenia for the excellent question and You are getting a free copy of this book we are addressing as well

01:11:15

Passing through pilgrim life in the wilderness compliments of the publisher Reformation Heritage books and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible book service

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CV BBS calm and we thank you for providing us with an American address where your daughter lives

01:11:30

So that we can ship that to her and saving CV BBS calm a lot of money in overseas shipping because that is quite a

01:11:42

Large amount especially since we give away books very frequently on iron sharpens iron so thank you very much for the

01:11:50

American address and That is an interesting phrase that brother washer used about parading the church around an address that Let me go back to that very quote that our brother in Slovenia gave

01:12:09

Let's see here it says Parading the church in a dress in a garb that God never intended her to wear because the the church using that analogy very many in the modern evangelical world are

01:12:24

Dressing up the church in a very seductive Dress that incites the carnal appetites of the world to be drawn to her

01:12:38

Because the the church seems to be very bent on Using pragmatism

01:12:48

To attract people in their minds to hear the gospel and be saved by luring them into the church with worldly means but but this is nothing that the

01:12:59

Disciples of Jesus Christ ever did in the scriptures that we can see.

01:13:04

Am I right? Absolutely, I think one of one of the one of the verses that is often quoted in this regard is is

01:13:15

Paul's Victim or principle that he's going to become all things to all men that by all means he might win some and That is taken out of its context in its context.

01:13:28

I think it's Paul speaking specifically of his Ministry is individual

01:13:36

Principle of operation that he is willing to suspend his Christian Liberty For the sake of others.

01:13:44

It is not on the one hand a way of saying I'll do what I want Or I can do anything.

01:13:51

I need to in order to win others And neither is it a blueprint for the for the church that the church as a whole is to become like the world

01:14:00

In order to to win the world In the world but not of it, I suppose that the counterpart to that would be in it to win it and And that I think

01:14:15

I quote in the book a Scott's preacher by the name of William still really still and His contention was that they precisely the problem with the church is it has become too much like the world and that's what makes it

01:14:29

Ineffective in reaching the world so in order to become faithful and effective witnesses for the

01:14:35

Lord Christ We we don't Jump into bed with the world as it were and try and camouflage ourselves amongst them

01:14:43

We we we show our holy distinctiveness unashamedly and In that sense we boast in the cross but that's done always with a

01:14:57

Compassionate regard for those who are still lost in a desire to see them saved Reverend buzz

01:15:04

Taylor has a question. Well, it's just adding to the conversation here if anybody could have

01:15:10

Used as he would use the term cleverness of speech. It would have been the Apostle Paul he was, you know trained in Tarsus and he

01:15:19

He was familiar with the Roman poets and everything and he used whatever he could in his you know for illustrations

01:15:25

But yet he said that when he came to the Corinthians He determined to know nothing except Jesus Christ and him crucified so that the power would rest on the gospel

01:15:36

We need to remember that It is the if we simply let that word out.

01:15:41

It's gonna do its job. We do not have to embellish it We don't have to make it impressive for the world and all our attempts to do so are just weakening the message

01:15:53

Absolutely, not by not by might or by power but by my spirit says the Lord we don't need to improve it

01:16:00

We don't need to dress it up. We don't need to make it better We need to rely upon God's Word and the power of God's Spirit to bring it to the human heart

01:16:09

I think what we need to do is to stop being ashamed of the gospel Yeah, absolutely.

01:16:16

And and that that's one of them. I We are constantly being pressured to privatize our faith

01:16:29

We have J a in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island a first -time listener to iron sharpens iron

01:16:39

Who wants to know? Do you think that some Christians perhaps those who are more prone toward fundamentalism?

01:16:47

Take the extreme route when trying to separate themselves from the world by rarely associating with non -believers and not even going to restaurants that serve alcoholic beverages and other things where they seemingly cloister themselves in their own

01:17:06

Christian monasteries and never have Meaningful interaction with those in the lost world around them

01:17:15

Yeah, when the Apostle Paul tells the church in Corinth that they are to not to keep company with ungodly people

01:17:26

He says of course, I don't mean the ungodly were in the world because then you'd have to come out of the world all together

01:17:32

But he says what I'm talking about is those who have called themselves Believers who are now living and acting as unbelievers and and sometimes

01:17:43

We're in a way that even it would put unbelievers to shame So the now,

01:17:49

I don't know precisely what circles this this listeners referring to but yet anything that would

01:17:56

Tend toward an unhealthy isolation and particularly

01:18:05

And I don't think that this I'm not trying to accuse anybody who would call themselves a fundamentalist of this

01:18:11

I think it's a it's an attitude that is rife in many circles but that Pharisaic spirit that basically looks down its nose at others that it considers sinners and says

01:18:23

Lord I thank you that I'm not like other men now wherever that kind of attitude manifests itself that is that is certainly not the kind of spirit that the gospel creates in in in the heart of a redeemed sinner, so Yeah, that kind of unhealthy isolation as opposed to holy engagement

01:18:49

That that I think would within itself be dangerous and Of course the answer isn't well, you throw yourself into the world hook line and sinker well

01:19:01

Ja Thank you for being a first -time listener and for sending us a question

01:19:07

You are getting a bunch of stuff for free because of the fact that you're a first -time listener.

01:19:12

You're not only getting Passing through pilgrim life in the wilderness by our guest Jeremy Walker But you're also getting a free

01:19:20

New American Standard Bible Compliments of the publishers of the NASB and last but not least you are also getting a copy of a time for confidence

01:19:31

Trusting God in a post -christian society by dr. Stephen J Nichols president of Reformation Bible College the

01:19:38

Bible College of RC Sproul and Ligonier ministries, and we thank Ligonier ministries for thinking so highly of Iron Trump and Zion radio that they have sent us these books to give away to listeners on our program

01:19:53

And I'm so honored that they have informed me that I am one of a handful of their favorite talk programs

01:20:00

And that is something that blesses me more than I can possibly describe in the human language

01:20:07

But Thank You J a make sure we get your full mailing address So Cumberland Valley Bible Book Services can ship you out all those three items and we thank

01:20:16

Todd and Patty Jennings for being faithful supporters of iron sharpens iron and their website again is

01:20:22

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service calm CV BBS Calm and it is interesting.

01:20:29

I can remember when I had my first pastor's luncheon on Long Island some an annual event that my late wife started in the mid -1990s

01:20:42

Like I remember a friend of mine who was a fundamentalist pastor He's retired from the ministry now, but he would not come

01:20:51

Because I had the pastor's luncheon in the outback steakhouse and they serve alcohol in that steakhouse and I said to him

01:20:59

You don't have to drink alcohol even if that is your personal view of Liberty where you do not have the liberty to imbibe in alcoholic beverages in any amount or fashion

01:21:12

But he just because of the fact that it was served on the premises. He wouldn't he wouldn't come Don't suppose it was being served at your luncheon either

01:21:21

No I'm sure that there may have been a few Presbyterians and Lutherans that wandered up to the bar

01:21:31

No, I was not having pictures of beer or or Shots being poured at the various tables of where the pastors were seated but that that that is

01:21:41

I mean I said I also said to him brother if I would have to have my Pastor's luncheon at McDonald's or Burger King if you want to have it in a place where they don't serve alcohol.

01:21:51

There's very few High quality restaurants that don't have alcohol on the premises.

01:21:57

Yeah But we go now to your section on fight the battles

01:22:05

Explain exactly what you mean by that chapter fight the battles Well, I think probably in the course of the book

01:22:15

I move from if you like the more negative aspects of holiness the holy separation toward the more positive aspects the holy engagement and this is really the outworking of knowing the environment and and knowing the enemy

01:22:30

That given the environment in which we are and The enemy that we face we need to recognize that as believers as pilgrims in this world

01:22:41

We're going to have to endure hardship We're going to be engaged in the fight of faith that We're told to resist the devil

01:22:51

That we're called upon to put on the whole armor of God we're to take up those weapons of spiritual warfare

01:23:00

That that we are not in a neutral environment that we are

01:23:09

We're on enemy territory in that sense and Unless we recognize that and suit up accordingly

01:23:16

We are going to be the more easily battered bruised Undermined made to stumble.

01:23:23

So we're not neutral observers. We're not civilian bystanders We're enlisted soldiers in the armies of the land.

01:23:29

We have enemies to fight against and we have a captain to fight for so Again, let's not deceive ourselves.

01:23:37

Let's not imagine that this is a life that could be casual or careless as Christian soldiers to use that that language

01:23:46

Tell us about the pursue the mission in greater detail Well again now this is this is moving towards some of the more positive aspects because as as believers we are to We're to preach the good news to every creature

01:24:05

That's a duty that belongs to the church as a whole It belongs to the members of the church in their particular callings with their particular opportunities

01:24:15

That we are working under Christ's authority and at Christ's command in order to bring

01:24:21

Christ in his gospel to the whole world around us and so again taking into account the

01:24:30

The circumstances that we're in and the the opportunities that we have We are to be

01:24:37

Those who Number out the praises of the God has called us out of darkness into his marvelous light and that that's something that we all have a role to play

01:24:50

Even though it might not always be the same role. So that's really a call to not not activism

01:24:56

You know, there can be a lot of activity that isn't effective serving of God or men, but but genuine

01:25:03

Spiritual activity a zealous desire to make Christ known and this is one that Christians sometimes or perhaps

01:25:16

I should even say frequently Disagree on to in some level or another on how this is actually made manifest it's especially

01:25:28

Controversial and something that is disagreed upon when a Notoriously anti -christian or non -christian or liberal president

01:25:39

Is in the White House and of course, you're there in the UK. So it would be a different officials there that may be

01:25:48

Opposed to the Christian faith where it made manifest in the The laws and someone that they are trying to push forward that may be in some way problematic for Christians They may be pro -abortion.

01:26:04

They may be pro homosexual marriage same -sex marriage they may be in favor of Homosexuals adopting children and all these kinds of things

01:26:16

The the subject of respecting the authorities Tell us more about what you've written in there

01:26:27

Whether it's in America or in Europe or in other parts of the world

01:26:33

Those are more or less current in many places in many cultures And I'm not for one moment belittling them

01:26:41

What I'm questioning is whether or not as as believers

01:26:47

We always have the right approach to this if Christ said that my kingdom is not of this world if he said as Buzz was saying earlier that You know, we're not we're not to adopt the world

01:27:00

Means to accomplish God's ends then if we understand the church to be in some measure by its very nature political or social or economic force that we see our our calling primarily in terms of an impact on political process or a matter of social justice and We've actually

01:27:28

Missed our way because the church is by divine design and intention a spiritual force

01:27:34

Now that doesn't mean that she has no wider impact in the world and that may be social and political and economic

01:27:44

But that's not why she exists that those impact those effect are because she is a

01:27:53

She is Christ gospel bride if you like and that as Sinners are converted there is change in Individual lives and if many sinners are converted then you're going to see the impact of that across society much more widely and so in that chapter what

01:28:12

I'm trying to work through is some of the biblical data as it relates to our relationship to the authorities that God has put over us the

01:28:21

Priority of a godly life recognition that Political systems are not typically a friend of the church and that we shouldn't look to them as as temporal saviors or try and yoke yoke the church to a political party or a political process that that whole idea that our

01:28:47

Citizenship is in heaven actually raises us above some of those kinds of issues and sets our priorities in a completely different level

01:28:57

Well, we're gonna go to a break right now and I'm going to ask a question of a listener of You Jeremy and I'm going to give you time to think about it over the break again

01:29:06

So you could answer after we return and forgive me that this is somewhat off -topic

01:29:14

I don't believe it's it's entirely Off -topic, but because it involves a listener engaging other people about the

01:29:25

Christian faith And these other people involved in his family may

01:29:31

May not be believers So I mean that this has something to do with being in the world and not of the world and being salt and light and so on but it's something and that it's so such a

01:29:41

Commonly heard thing at least in the media. It's commonly heard when you when you see

01:29:48

Programs on the afterlife and so on but I mean, I just want to let my listener in West Islip Long Island, New York speak for himself with this question

01:29:57

He says can you ask your guest what he makes of near -death? Experiences where the person sees loved ones.

01:30:06

I ask this because my grandmother on her deathbed Saw her husband and relatives right before passing

01:30:14

Sorry, if this is out of line or already asked But I was always under the impression.

01:30:20

We would never see others who passed while alive and That is Tom and West Islip, Long Island, New York, and perhaps you could answer that When we return from the break and this is our final break if you'd like to join

01:30:33

Tom and our other listeners who have written questions. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:30:38

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages

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01:36:29

Welcome back. This is Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes And the next half hour to come our guest has been and will continue to be

01:36:38

Jeremy Walker We are discussing his book Passing through pilgrim life in the wilderness and if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arntzen at gmail dot com if you intend to write a question i would do so very soon because we are running out of time and before the break uh...

01:36:58

tom in west islip long island new york as the uh... question about his grandmother uh...

01:37:06

who said that she saw her husband her late husband and other deceased relatives before she died on her deathbed obviously uh...

01:37:17

tom might have inserted but he didn't he might have inserted the word that his grandmother grandmother thought she saw uh...

01:37:26

her late husband and other relatives uh... deceased relatives before she departed this world but uh...

01:37:33

what is your response to that is that uh... at all from what you know the scriptures and the afterlife uh...

01:37:41

is that a possibility that someone would see prior to exiting this earth and entering into eternity is it possible for us to see those that have going on before us uh...

01:37:57

that's that's a question i don't feel entirely competent to answer uh... i think again it's it's difficult to argue from experience uh...

01:38:11

i think there may be naturalistic explanations for that kind of experience the the scriptures talk for example about the great gulf that is fixed uh...

01:38:26

between uh... certainly between between heaven and hell uh...

01:38:33

we're told that uh... appointed for men to die once and afterward the judgment uh...

01:38:41

most of the scriptures that i can think of immediately imply even if they do not uh...

01:38:51

measure of finality uh... and the reason why i i speak about more naturalistic interpretations is because i think when you take account of the precise specific circumstances in the and the pressures and the stresses of that kind of environment uh...

01:39:11

i'm i'm not sure how that would play into the situation uh... in terms of the things that one might anticipate you know at the same time i think there is uh...

01:39:25

that there is some again more credible experience of believers who have been uh...

01:39:33

enjoyed something of a foretaste uh... uh... you know john bunion himself i think on his deathbed uh...

01:39:41

i believe if i remember rightly his last words were something like take me for i come to thee uh...

01:39:48

there was a very real and personal sense that he was going into the presence of the lord christ and that's different from seeing one's family and friends right because even steven when he was being stoned to death absolutely absolutely so uh...

01:40:05

i would be i would be careful i would be wary but it's not something that i've considered carefully enough or that i i'd had to address uh...

01:40:16

closely enough to be able to give tom uh... a more definitive answer uh...

01:40:22

but i think again it's one of those things that you need to interpret experience in the light of scripture rather than scripture in the light of experience right it is also medication typically involved on people on the deathbed right that and that's why i say you know that there are some naturalistic elements that might need to be taken into account and then there's the questions that come up to like you know did the witch of endor actually conjure up samuel or was that something else i think uh...

01:40:53

thanks for that chris i was trying to avoid that one that was buzzed at the end i'm the troublemaker not chris but uh...

01:41:00

but i think i think actually what you the way you started out the whole answer was probably the best answer and that is that you know we really can't answer things like that when it comes to experiences like that i can say that's interesting and just kind of leave it at that and in fact the the account of the witch of endor though the scriptures never say it was a a false apparition and the medium was the witch or the medium was was terrified right yeah it wasn't it wasn't a fake that she was perpetrating and of course we have the final authority red fox saying elizabeth is that you?

01:41:38

but uh... anyway uh... sorry we couldn't be of more help with that tom but there's not a lot the bible says about those things and there's no reason to put a lot of emphasis on that experience anyway i mean the thing that you must always look to is the gospel of eternal life for any kind of peace in regard to regarding the afterlife uh...

01:42:04

but anyway thank you for writing and by the way tom in west islip you are receiving a free copy of passing through pilgrim life in the wilderness by jeremy walker and you're also receiving since uh...

01:42:20

you have not won one before you're also receiving a time for confidence trusting god in a post christian society by doctor stephen j nichols of reformation bible college compliments of ligonier ministries and reformation trust publishing uh...

01:42:37

the first uh... book that i mentioned you are getting about from reformation heritage books and uh...

01:42:45

we thank you for for submitting a question we thank uh... the publishers for offering these for free for our listeners and we also think cvb bs dot com we have uh...

01:42:57

murray and ken ross scotland who says with jeremy walker encourage a careful study of israel's journeyings in the wilderness to establish principles that we as individual pilgrims can apply to our own walk in the pathway satan sought to sift peter as wheat but our lord prayed for peter do we perhaps not pray enough for one another in the face of satan's wiles okay uh...

01:43:31

to to very good very good questions there uh... yes i think even taking into account uh...

01:43:40

different opinions on uh... on israel and it's it's future i would be substantially happy uh...

01:43:50

and without a good biblical evidence uh... to to look at the history of old covenant israel and to draw lessons and and some parallels or the experience of god's people under the new covenant uh...

01:44:06

so you know these these things we were told were written for a profit that we we actually ought to look at those uh...

01:44:13

some of those experiences and and take the warnings and receive the encouragement from them uh...

01:44:20

happy we we need to be careful in doing that uh... that we we mustn't make uh...

01:44:26

like -for -like comparisons where they're not appropriate and legitimate but there is certainly spiritual profit to be to be to be gained from a a not not just uh...

01:44:42

a properly biblical principle of interpretation that handles those things carefully and well so yes i don't i don't think there's any any harm in a in a legitimately careful study of old testament israel as uh...

01:44:59

an example in various ways to today's church and then that the second question was uh...

01:45:06

to do with a prayer uh... prayer for one another uh... certainly i think that if you ask most believers uh...

01:45:15

many of us today would say yeah prayer is something that we struggle with and certainly we're we're called to to pray for one another uh...

01:45:26

and i think there's a particular pastoral responsibility to uh... bring the sheep of the flock before uh...

01:45:34

the great shepherd of the sheep and uh... before his father in heaven so uh...

01:45:40

prayer is something in which we should be very much engaged not just for ourselves uh...

01:45:47

but also for our brothers and sisters and we thank tom and wes leislip for just informing us that he is has just put a check in the mail for iron sharpens iron thank you so much tom that means the world to me uh...

01:46:01

we have uh... tyler in uh... mastic beach long island new york and he asks why do we as christians often lose joy in the christian life and almost look at our brokenness more than our blessings that uh...

01:46:26

that's a very good question uh... i i saw somebody referring just recently to a very interesting onto to that question uh...

01:46:38

it almost tied those two together perhaps even goes beyond the second in fact you have a chapter that kind of ties into this it looks like on the surface and we appreciate the beauty yet now uh...

01:46:51

in terms of working through this minute that the beauty here is uh... in the in the context of the book is the beauty of the world as god has made it that there are many good things in this world for us to enjoy even on a a purely physical level uh...

01:47:07

but to answer it was tyler was right with the with the listener yes tyler and mastic beach tyler and mastic beach i would say that in answer to that that it's actually not uh...

01:47:20

merely that if you like that the common grace blessings or even the uh...

01:47:25

the beauties and the goodnesses that are available to all of us as god's creatures but distinctively the blessings of salvation that bring us real joy and i think it's interesting that he he compares a sense of blessing to a sense of brokenness i would actually want to try those two together in a way and to say that if we have a proper and accurate sense not just about brokenness but of our worthiness only of god's judgments against our sin and the wonders and the glories of god's salvation in christ will become and remain a source of profound joy and and the kind of joy that the world doesn't know uh...

01:48:09

stable uh... christ centered increasing joy uh...

01:48:15

and that really if if we have both the sense of our own constant dependence upon christ but also uh...

01:48:25

uh... a growing sense of the christ upon whom we depend that that really is the recipe for that the joy of which the scriptures speak which is the joy of sins forgiven it's the joy of knowing god in christ uh...

01:48:38

the joy of uh... of the peace that we have uh... that shalom that full orbed harmonious relationship with god the assurance of blessings to come as well as the experience of blessings now that that's really where our joy comes from knowing that we are children of the living god amen well thank you tyler in mastic beach long island you are also receiving a free copy of passing through pilgrim life in the wilderness thank you so much for contributing to today's show with your question appreciate the destiny is another one of your chapters explain yeah anticipate the destiny is uh...

01:49:20

again as we come toward the end of the book i'm trying to be in a sense more forward looking and uh...

01:49:27

reminding us that because this world is not our home we have something to which we can look forward uh...

01:49:35

god has promised us that we we're going to inherit the earth uh...

01:49:40

and i don't think that we should spiritualize that we need to remember that the uh... the ultimate destination of god's people is not a disembodied state but it's the new heavens in the new earth in which righteousness dwells and in which we with glorified bodies like our lord jesus christ would enjoy forever the the blessings that god has stored up for us so that the creation is going to be liberated uh...

01:50:08

the world is going to be made new uh... the things which are are not seen uh...

01:50:14

the uh... the things which are eternal uh... now we'll we'll come into uh...

01:50:20

our experience uh... that we have the uh... the inheritance uh...

01:50:26

which we're looking forward to all of those things a part of of our anticipation and so that as believers we're not just mooching along trying to make the best of things with nothing to look forward to that god has promised uh...

01:50:43

that christ will come for us that we will be resurrected we'll be made like him we'll have a a body like that the heavenly mans and that we will enjoy an eternal reward an eternal bliss that embraces our whole humanity amen and cultivate the identity identity is another chapter yeah that's that's really uh...

01:51:07

in some ways uh... summary don't lose sight of what it means to be a pilgrim and you will have to battle to remember that you are salt and light in the earth uh...

01:51:19

that we're we're called to be a pure people that we're to be shining lights uh...

01:51:25

blameless and harmless with children of god without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation and that that isn't going to happen by accident that we don't drift into godliness uh...

01:51:37

that we we we're not going to simply roll casually into this kind of cultivated identity that it is something that we're going to have to battle for to attain it and then to maintain it and lastly your your final chapter is serve the king if you could uh...

01:51:57

further explain yeah well that's that that really is the the grand summary that uh...

01:52:04

all of these things whether or not if you like that the more negative side the holy separation or the more positive side the holy engagement uh...

01:52:13

that we do this as as bond slaves of the lord jesus christ that we are called upon to to please god rather than men we recognize this uh...

01:52:24

followers of the lord christ uh... who he took up his cross he willingly embraced uh...

01:52:31

what was uh... for him the path of obedience that is precisely the same path that we are called upon to follow uh...

01:52:40

but that we we uh... we've been crucified to the world we've got a totally radically different attitude uh...

01:52:48

to the one we had before we were converted that we're pilgrims because we're following our king through this world and there's a there's a lovely image uh...

01:52:58

that bunion uses when he's talking about vanity fair uh... that uh...

01:53:05

the pilgrims as they make their way through the city they knew that their master had had to pass through before them that he had not escaped either the experience or the the assaults of life in vanity fair and so what we do is not uh...

01:53:25

isolated from our christian identity but there's a very great expression of it that what we do we do what we are we are because we are united to christ uh...

01:53:37

body and soul life and death amen well i'd like you to summarize in about four minutes or so what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today brother uh...

01:53:52

well okay uh... alright i think if if i were going to uh... draw some of these threads together i would encourage god's people to recognize who and what they are in relation to the lord jesus christ and to live that out in this real world that they are not to to hide themselves away because then they cannot have the the influence for god in terms of their their gospel identity their gospel witness that they ought to have uh...

01:54:26

but on the other hand there's a real danger that the world will uh... will suck us in will force us into its mold and that we need to resist that and that a real and distinctive holiness uh...

01:54:39

that involves both that separation from sin and that engagement for the glory of god that is the way in which we're to walk through this wilderness world that's the way we will glorify the lord that's the way we will truly secure genuine good for those who are around us both our brothers and sisters in christ and then uh...

01:55:01

by extension uh... those who are still outside the kingdom both in terms of uh...

01:55:07

relieving the suffering that they they undergo uh... and also calling them to know and enjoy the blessings of god in christ so uh...

01:55:16

it's uh... it's a it's a call to holy living as pilgrims passing through this world life in the wilderness amen well i want to let our listeners know that if you are interested in this uh...

01:55:28

book you didn't have an opportunity to win a copy today because you couldn't submit a question uh...

01:55:35

or if you even if you've already won a book today you want to buy more you want to share this book with other people that you know and love uh...

01:55:43

in order to even share the gospel with them uh... well uh... passing through pilgrim life in the wilderness uh...

01:55:50

is available at heritage books dot org heritage books dot org uh...

01:55:56

the publisher which is reformation heritage books but you could also get that through our friends at cumberland valley bible book service cv for cumberland valley bbs for bible book service dot o -r -g and they uh...

01:56:09

carry a number of books published by reformation heritage books and by banner of truth and by uh...

01:56:15

p n r publishing and by solid ground christian books and a whole host of other reformed publishers uh...

01:56:22

since todd and patty jennings happen to be committed to the doctrines of sovereign grace and reform theology in our actually also members of carlisle reform presbyterian church where my co -hosts of buzz taylor is a member and uh...

01:56:35

we uh... thank todd and patty jennings for their support of iron sharpens iron and uh...

01:56:41

i also uh... want to thank all of you who have written in today uh... submitted your questions uh...

01:56:48

i want to uh... remind you of iron sharpens irons urgent need for new advertisers new sponsors new benefactors who are willing to donate uh...

01:56:58

please uh... go to iron sharpens iron radio dot com and go to the third option at the top of the page which is support click on support you'll find a mailing address where you can mail your checks made payable uh...

01:57:11

iron sharpens iron radio or cruciform media iron sharpens iron radio is a lot easier to remember so you could just stick with that if you want and uh...

01:57:21

any amount that you are able to give we certainly do not want any one to cut out of their giving to their local church uh...

01:57:32

you are commanded in scripture to give to your local church uh...

01:57:38

you're not committed in scripture to give to iron sharpens iron radio but if you happen to be blessed above and beyond your your uh...

01:57:46

comfort zone of not only giving to your church and providing for your family but if you are so blessed by god with extra finances that you can uh...

01:57:55

share it with iron sharpens iron radio we would be enormously grateful for that help and i i i know that i've been repeating myself a lot on this lately and i apologize for that but at the or the the need is quite urgent at this time and hopefully we can go another several years without bringing this up again uh...

01:58:16

if god so wills uh... keep in mind that tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio we have uh...

01:58:22

kevin swanson on the program who is an orthodox presbyterian pastor uh...

01:58:27

talk radio host and published author uh... we have not yet determined the subject matter but kevin swanson is quite a brilliant brother in christ uh...

01:58:37

and wrote a uh... book that we just recently interviewed him on called apostate uh...

01:58:42

and i can't remember the exact subtitle but it had to do with the primary figures of church or should i say of history who were very uh...

01:58:53

in fact in his opinion most denver detrimental to the christian west in regard to uh...

01:59:00

life in this world uh... next week uh... i'm highlighting our interview on tuesday with larry taunton the author of the faith of christian christopher hitchens the notorious atheist who larry taunton that knew as a personal friend and uh...

01:59:19

unfortunately christopher hitchens as far as we know went to his death still remaining an atheist but uh...

01:59:24

our guests larry taunton will discuss the mind of this uh...