Bow Tie Dialogue: What is Christian Reconstructionism?

Your Calvinist

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

But as evangelicals, I think we've got to recognize that God is a God of order, a

00:05

God of structure, and I think we need to recognize that, I would argue, as a Christian Reconstructionist, part of what

00:11

I'm trying to do is incorporate that ethos, that biblical ethos, as I understand it, back into even a worship service.

00:25

Sometimes I feel the weight of the world fall down on me

00:31

It's so heavy And I need a friendly voice with some good theology

00:39

Calvinistic -y speaking So I mix a manly drink Pepsi And shoe polish

00:44

And I hit the YouTube link Don't say hit, that sounds violent And I feel my troubles all melt away

00:53

It's your Calvinist Podcast with Keith Borosky Beards and bow ties

01:04

Laughs till sunrise It's your

01:09

Calvinist Podcast with Keith Borosky He's not like most

01:18

Calvinists He's nice Your Calvinist Podcast is filmed before a live studio audience

01:27

Welcome back to Your Calvinist Podcast. My name is Keith Foskey, and I am your Calvinist.

01:33

And you know, by the way that I am dressed, that today is another one of our patented bow tie dialogues.

01:41

Well, maybe I shouldn't say patented, because I'm going to be talking to a lawyer today, and I certainly don't want to misrepresent the law. I'm very excited to have with me today a new friend and fellow minister of the gospel,

01:52

TJ Francis. He runs the God's Lawyer Podcast, and I'm going to be bringing him in in just a little bit to talk about the subject of Christian Reconstructionism.

02:02

Now, bow tie dialogues, I usually talk to different denominations, but there are also movements within denominations, and Christian Reconstructionism is one of those.

02:12

So TJ is going to come in, and he's going to tell us more about what it means to be a Christian Reconstructionist, tell us more about what he believes and how he defines that from the

02:21

Bible. I'm going to ask him some questions and learn some things about him, and we're going to do that in just a moment. But before we do,

02:27

I just want to remind you of some important things about the show. Number one, we're a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Florida.

02:34

So if you're in the Jacksonville area, we would love to have you visit with us, and you can learn more about us at sgfcjacks .org.

02:41

We're also a member of the Truth and Love Network, where you can find other great podcasts just like this one.

02:46

We're also a partner with tinybibles .com, and during the month of October, they're trying to encourage people to look at not only their tiny

02:54

Bibles, but also specifically their tiny Gospel of John, which is actually in a form which can be read without an eyepiece.

03:01

The tiny Bible has to use an eyepiece, but the tiny Gospel of John is readable to the naked eye.

03:06

I can read right here, and I don't have to use any type of extra device. So if you're interested in partnering with the show and helping out one of our sponsors, you can go to tinybibles .com,

03:17

use my name, Keith, as a coupon code, and you will get a percentage off. I want to also remind you that if you want to be part of our

03:24

Friday show, which is now a live show, Friday Night Live, where we answer questions about the Bible, you can go to keithfoskey .com

03:32

and send in your questions. They go directly to me, and the ones that I'm able to, I answer on air.

03:39

All right. Well, that is as much as I want to give at the beginning. I'll mention some other things later, but I want to go ahead and move on to my guest, because I'm excited about our conversation.

03:49

I'm going to bring him on. And again, I am welcoming tonight Pastor TJ Francis, the host of God's Lawyer podcast.

03:58

He is the lead pastor of Christ the King Baptist Church of Plant City, Florida. He and his wife have seven children, two daughters -in -law and a son -in -law.

04:07

Their oldest son is an Apache helicopter pilot in the U .S. Army. Their second son is a U .S. Air Force veteran.

04:13

I'm encouraged by that. My son is currently serving in the Air Force. Their oldest daughter is an elementary school teacher.

04:18

Their second oldest daughter is a student at the United States Military Academy, preparatory school at West Point.

04:23

Third son is a senior in high school. Youngest daughter is a ninth grader, and youngest son is an eighth grader. He describes himself as a tent -making pastor.

04:31

He's a practicing licensed attorney, along with pastoring a church. He has a

04:38

B .A., a B .S., an M .Div., a T .H .M., a D .M., a J .D., which I believe is a

04:43

Juris Doctorate. I can't even—that's a lot of letters. So I'm amazed, and I'm just thankful to be able to know this brother and be able to welcome him to the show.

04:55

So, TJ, thank you for being on the show tonight. Keith, thank you for having me.

05:01

I appreciate it. It's a blessing, and I want to say also thank you for introducing my family.

05:07

My wife and I are very proud of our children. The Lord has blessed us, and I believe in being fruitful and multiplying, and I understand that you also hold that verse to be dear with your family, multiplying as well.

05:19

So I'm grateful and also thankful to be on the show. I'm grateful to have the opportunity to come on here and have a dialogue, a conversation between two

05:27

Christian brothers on a subject that I think is very important. So I'm going to say thank you one more time and then throw it back to you and see what sort of questions you may have.

05:38

Absolutely, and I also want to say I said J .D. Probably what was on my mind is tonight, while we're recording this, there is a debate going on between the two vice presidential candidates.

05:49

One of them, of course, is J .D. Vance, so that's probably why I made that little mistake there. I'm really anxious after we get done recording to see how that's going.

05:58

My wife's watching it while we're doing this. So do you have any thoughts about the current presidential debate or anything like that?

06:05

How do you think the debate's going to go? Let me ask you that. So I just recently did a podcast on J .D.

06:12

Vance and Christian populism, so I would be interested to hear some of the things that he's espousing, because J .D.

06:18

is presenting—I don't think it's something new he's presenting. In fact, I think he's really repackaging what we were witnessing back when

06:26

George W. Bush really kind of came into vogue when he was running. He was running on this idea of compassionate conservatism, and the idea was that the conservative right, really kind of the

06:37

Christian right, while we were correct in focusing on some primary issues, for example, the sanctity of marriage, the issues of life, that we had overlooked some issues.

06:48

Of overlooking issues, we left them open for others in political movements to come in and kind of capitalize on that.

06:55

And so I think if you notice some of the comments that he's making, he's trying to bring back that compassionate conservatism, which is really just now known as populism, because Donald Trump certainly is not somebody,

07:07

I would say, who is a Christian or espousing necessarily historical Christian tenets, but he is a populist.

07:14

And so he's brought in a Christian, loosely defined if we would just define it broadly, to bring that in, to kind of bring it into populism.

07:24

I suggest that Christians can be Christian populists if properly defined. And by that I mean that, for example,

07:31

J .D. and those who espouse his ideology, and I would to a degree, one of the key tenets of Christian populism is a mistrust of the elites.

07:45

I think that's important. That's something that we can rally around. I really have kind of what I would call paradigm, where I evaluate partnerships at different levels.

07:54

And so if I'm able to partner with somebody in the position I take in Christian reconstructionism, there's different levels of partnership.

08:02

So I can partner with a Catholic on a pro -life movement. I can partner with Eastern Orthodox if we're talking about the sanctity of marriage.

08:11

And so when I look at that, I think there's some aspects of Christian populism, or populism that's now got a

08:18

Christian slant to it, that we can agree with. And I think part of that is mistrust of fallen humanity when fallen human beings seek to exert authority and power over others using the sword or government in ways that God didn't intend it.

08:35

So, yeah, I too am very interested. Well, that was helpful, and I appreciate you defining that for us, because I think a lot of people would be curious as to how you were using that term and how that would work out.

08:50

And it is an interesting thought as to at what level can we partner with people who would differ.

08:57

I remember years ago when Al Mohler spoke at Brigham Young University.

09:03

A lot of people had a lot of questions about that, because, of course, Brigham Young University is a historically

09:09

Mormon school. And so there was the question, well, should he be speaking there? And I remember the thing that Al said when he was there.

09:15

I say Al like we're on first -name basis. It's not like we're not, but Dr. Mohler said, we won't be in heaven together, but we may be in jail together.

09:27

I thought that was an interesting line that he made, because he was saying we stand on the same side of a lot of social issues, but we don't serve the same

09:38

God. And I think that was an important distinction that he made. So when we talk about the subject of Christian reconstructionism,

09:48

I know that when I hear that term, I have a lot of thoughts and a lot of maybe the word is baggage that comes into my mind, because obviously

10:00

I've read people like Rush Dooney and others, and then there's

10:05

Bonson and then more modern examples of this, maybe people like the guys out in Moscow maybe would be considered

10:15

Reconstructionists or at least Deonimists. And so I don't know where you would land in all of these things.

10:21

So that's kind of what I wanted to talk about first is when you say you're a Christian Reconstructionist, what people would you say you're most aligned with or are you aligned with any particular

10:35

Reconstructionist groups? Is that a fair question to ask? I think it is.

10:41

That's a very fair question, because obviously we don't come to a position without influences. I had a man one time told me, he says,

10:47

I just read the Bible. I don't read anything else. And then he started espousing dispensational views.

10:52

And I said, well, okay, you didn't just read the Bible and come up with that. Somebody's influenced you. So obviously there are thinkers who have influenced me to various degrees.

11:01

All of the people that you mentioned to varying degrees have influenced, if you will, at a distance.

11:07

I think about distance learning. The book is historically distance learning. So there has been some influence by these individuals.

11:14

But one of the things I've worked very hard to do is even the term Christian Reconstructionist.

11:20

I struggle to immediately be put into a camp. So I want to be able to define what I am, what

11:25

I believe. And so, you know, for example, if you want to talk about, you know, theonomy. Okay. There's some particular understandings there when we talk about the

11:33

Old Testament law. We talk about economics. And so I think what happens is, like most things,

11:39

Keith, a lot of times what happens is somebody finds something. And it's novel. It's new. And it's exciting to them.

11:46

And they become, they espouse it. You know, I think about when I was in seminary, they had this concept. They talked about guys being in the cage stage.

11:53

You know, you basically want to lock somebody up the first time they, you know, they read something that's reformed because then you turn them loose and they're like a lunatic.

12:01

And they haven't really thought about it. They've not thought about it as not only as a theological system, but a philosophical system, a worldview, and how it affects everything around you.

12:10

And so if someone wants to talk about any of those authors or their contribution to my thinking,

12:17

I would want to, one, define where I'm at. Two, talk about where they have influenced, and I want to talk about where I agree and disagree.

12:24

Then I'm also going to talk about some very specific silos. Not that we, that I want to, someone to understand

12:30

Christian reconstructionism in parts. I want them to understand it as a whole. But if we're going to talk about economics, you know, for example, that would be fine.

12:38

We can talk about economics and Christian reconstructionism. We can talk about the sciences. We can talk about education. We can talk about the law, and particularly the law of the

12:47

Old Testament. Let me just hit a note there, just a real quick note. I think the problem with most who are against Christian nationalism,

12:55

Christian reconstructionism, of course, there is the problem that it seems like there's a thousand definitions for both.

13:00

I think that's a problem. But a lot of times what happens is they'll hear this application of the

13:05

Old Testament law today. Does that mean you're going to go stone to death a son who's disrespectful to his parents?

13:12

You get the extreme expressions. See, the problem is, is there's not a basic understanding of law and how law has historically worked and been understood and applied.

13:21

And so if I want to talk about Christian reconstructionism, and particularly the Old Testament law, and how should it apply to the laws of our land today, the first thing we have to do is step away from a modern revisionist reading of the

13:33

Old Testament as if that law is statutory. See, the Old Testament law is not written as statutory law per se.

13:40

It's case law. In those case laws, you often have these, if you will, kind of the most extreme potential measure.

13:47

But then if you look at those, you don't see it being applied that way. You're seeing it being in a case law way, which allows for an evaluation of that particular situation.

13:56

If we're going to look at economics, I think we can talk about that. You know, the idea I've always grown up with is if you're a real

14:02

Christian, you're a capitalist. And if you're a fake Christian, you're like a Marxist or something. And so I think that both systems, well, they're both man -made.

14:10

And so both systems have serious flaws. And I think capitalism is a much stronger system and one that I would endorse long before I would endorse the idea of Marxism.

14:22

I absolutely reject that concept economically, socially. But capitalism has just been now de facto.

14:29

That's what it means to be Christian. However, capitalism is infused with the ability.

14:37

And I don't just mean the ability. I mean, it's real life happening with abuses, taking advantage of others.

14:42

There's some things about capitalism that are inherently unchristian. So, Keith, to your point, I do think that, yes, as soon as someone hears it, hears the phrase, it's immediately filled with, impregnated with meaning.

14:55

But what I would like to do is talk about a particular area of society, a particular discipline, kind of narrow in, focus on that.

15:04

But also, if I can, I'd also like to lay out what I think are some foundational principles to Christian reconstructionism.

15:12

Sure. I think that would be a great place to start, sort of give us a ground working of what the term means.

15:18

Because some people may be listening to this. They may not have ever even heard this. Some people may even be thinking, because I never know who's listening.

15:28

This might be a new listener. They may be thinking deconstructionism, which is an entirely different thing. Christian deconstructionism is these ideas of these people who are taking the faith apart and oftentimes coming away as unbelievers.

15:40

And what's funny is when I was typing in my notes for today's show and I typed Christian reconstructionism, the autocorrect changed it to deconstruction.

15:51

So instead of reconstruction, it automatically autocorrected. So I'm hoping whoever's listening to this, who may not know what this term is, that you'll be able to define this in a way that's easy to understand.

16:03

So please, please do. Absolutely. I'm glad that you mentioned deconstructionism because really,

16:10

I think that actually, if someone understands what deconstructionism is, whether it is within theological circles or cultural circles, even if we're talking about historical deconstructionism, we're talking about at the core of Marxism is that the very core of Marxism is the deconstructing.

16:26

And you just fill in the blank history, family, society. OK, so if you if you start with that, if that's someone's reference point, then that would be a helpful reference point because you can almost think in terms of the opposite.

16:37

OK, when you think of what Marxism wants to deconstruct, it wants to deconstruct Western civilization.

16:43

OK, and Western civilization, while it certainly has a number of flaws, there's a there's a tremendous, if you will, issues, difficulties that come up.

16:54

We need to address those. But but inherently at its core, its foundation, Western civilization is based on a

16:59

Christian worldview, Christian philosophies, principles. OK, so when you think about what Marxism is pushing back against and wants to deconstruct, it is

17:07

Christianity. So if we start there, I think that's a good place to start. Now, Christian reconstructionism,

17:13

I believe there are six key foundations to it. And I will want to come back to the deconstruction, reconstruction, and just, if you will, kind of let those two jest so that I think it will help the listener understand kind of where I'm coming from with this.

17:30

Now, first of all, as I've already kind of alluded to, the foundational belief is a belief in the historical

17:39

Christian faith by the historical Christian faith. We might we might go back to, OK, the

17:44

Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed. Not that those creeds define historical

17:50

Christian faith, but it's kind of a rallying point. You know what I mean? It's a point where we can rally. Certainly, I believe in the inspiration of Scripture, inerrancy of Scripture, infallibility of Scripture.

18:02

However, I recognize that within Western Christendom, there are going to be those who participated in the development of Western society and civilization who may not have held my particular view of inerrancy.

18:17

So I'm not saying that's off the table. I mean, it is. I believe it's part of the historical Christian belief and tradition.

18:23

However, I'm thinking of that term broader than that. So that way that the listener can understand when

18:28

I say the historical Christian tradition and beliefs, think of the Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed, kind of a rallying point where we come together, that building block for Western society.

18:41

The second, what I would say is the second foundational point is a commitment to the nations as the inheritance of Jesus Christ.

18:53

Psalm chapter two, this is something that I think regardless of someone's millennial view, we're going to have agreement.

19:01

There's going to be some disagreement about how that comes about, what that looks like. And so it isn't

19:07

Christian Reconstructionists, we haven't left the reservation. We're still there saying that the nations are

19:15

Christ's inheritance. The third commitment is, and I think now here's where we're really going to start kind of focusing in, is an absolute commitment to the conversion of the nations.

19:29

And so I would be specific and say that our Lord, while certainly

19:34

I'll get to this on the gospel, he's commanding us to make disciples of all nations.

19:40

I don't believe that that means that we're to make disciples in the nations. Certainly there is that component and I'll talk about it.

19:46

But to make disciples of all nations, that is the full conversion of the nation itself.

19:53

Not to say every person in the nation is a Christian, but the conversion of institutions, agencies, every aspect of life in society under the banner of Christ.

20:05

Not forced conversions, because a Christian Reconstructionist can still endorse wholeheartedly the

20:12

First Amendment to the United States Constitution. And certainly we can discuss that at length if we need to.

20:18

The fourth principle is a theological belief and commitment to the family, as defined by God in his word, as the absolute cornerstone of society and civilization.

20:30

When we think about the Deconstructionist versus the Reconstructionist, this is really where it's at right here.

20:38

And so when I think about the family, I'm saying, okay, we win the world, certainly obviously preaching the gospel.

20:45

Okay, that should just be a given from this point forward. But the Christian Reconstructionist understands that this mandate for the husband to love his wife as Christ loves the church, to raise his children in the fear and admonition of the

20:55

Lord. This right here is the absolute cornerstone of Christian Reconstructionism.

21:01

There is no going forward if this fails. This is where it's at. We must be successful there.

21:09

That leads me to, I'm going to jump to my sixth one, then back to my fifth one here on these principles, because I don't want to miss this, that the local church should be, must be the most important organization, entity, institution, whatever term we want to use.

21:26

Okay, I get that the body of Christ, it's a living, it's the living body of Christ, but there's also needs to be a political understanding of the role of the church.

21:34

The local church in Christian Reconstructionism must be the most important institution in any community.

21:41

Why? Because it should be the leadership factory. The church should be producing the leaders for all these institutions and agencies and organizations.

21:49

Then to my final point is that we believe that the gospel is the power of God to transform individuals.

21:59

We also contend that that same Holy Spirit who regenerates unbelievers is the same

22:07

Holy Spirit who empowers Christians to transform society. So we understand the

22:13

Holy Spirit's work of transformation, being in the individual, saving that person.

22:19

But we would argue that part of that mission is, yes, seeing the individual come to Christ, but not just seeing that individual come to Christ, but seeing the entire culture around that person being shaped by the

22:33

Christian worldview. So those are foundational principles, Keith, and we can jump in wherever you want, and we can run off to any other sub -point or sub -section, but I felt like we've got to get to where the core principles are.

22:46

We can get off in the weeds on some of these other things. That's fine. I'm more than willing to. But if we don't get these core principles out there, then people are going to continue to think, well, the next thing

22:54

I know, if you get a Christian reconstructionist in town, the Old Testament law, as it's statutorily interpreted, is now going to be being applied.

23:05

What happens is it builds this character that's just not really true, and we don't get an opportunity to have an honest dialogue like you and I are having right now.

23:13

Well, that does lead to a question, and I do want to—I wrote, as you were talking,

23:18

I wrote your six points down. I think, just to clarify, number five was gospel transforms individuals who then transform the society around them.

23:27

Is that because you jumped to six, then you go back to five? Yes. Is that correct? Okay. Yeah, so I just took them out of order of mind, yeah.

23:35

Yeah, no worries. I just want to make sure I had all six here, and we will talk about each of these. But I do know that that's one of the concerns that a lot of people have, and that is the question of application of the

23:52

Old Covenant law. Now, I imagine you and I would have some theological differences.

23:58

Are you Baptist? Yes. I guess maybe that would be a good question to ask. So you would be a

24:05

Baptist, but a Baptist who holds to a Baptist covenant theology? Yes, I do hold to a covenant theology.

24:15

I've been influenced by Reform thinkers. If someone was to try to corner me on, you know, where do you stand with Reform theology,

24:22

I'd say, okay, same thing we're doing here. I want to talk about some specifics. I want to talk about issues.

24:27

I don't want to just be thrown into a camp unless I'm able to walk through and talk about, you know, what's that mean?

24:33

Because for me, it's not important to be part of a gang. You know what I mean? It's important to understand what

24:40

I believe and advocate for. Sure, sure. Well, the reason why I was asking is on this particular subject,

24:47

I tend to be a black sheep in the Reform Baptist world. I tend to fall more on the side of what would be known as progressive covenantalism.

24:55

If you're familiar with the writings of Stephen Wellam and Peter Gentry and that which has come out of Southern.

25:05

And, you know, many moons ago, guys like Fred Zaspel and John Reisinger were writing things about new covenant theology.

25:13

And I have some leanings in those directions. So these would be areas where we could have a very possibly very fruitful conversation about how we understand the application of mosaic legislation within the new covenant.

25:28

But if we were to simply, without having to go down that road, if we were to simply say, okay, we would agree.

25:37

I think we would agree that there is a transcendent law which transcends all covenants that is moral and is absolute.

25:46

We would agree with that. So, and I would say, ostensibly, those things are defined within the

25:54

Decalogue, notwithstanding the Sabbath may be an area where we may disagree. But outside of that, we would say that the moral law of God is demonstrated and defined within those 10 commandments of God where he says, there's no other gods before him, that we're not to make idols, we're not to use his name in vain, we're to keep the holy things holy, which is

26:16

Sabbath understanding and honoring the father, mother. Obviously, you know what the 10 commandments are.

26:22

But, so would you hold to a tripartite understanding where you would then define the other aspects of the law in a civil and ceremonial view?

26:32

Because that's where I think new covenant theology slash progressive covenantalism would have a difficult time defining how you lay out the other laws.

26:42

And as a lawyer, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. So admittedly, some of this

26:48

I would say is a work in progress. And I think that as a theologian,

26:53

I think it's fair for us, any of us, to just acknowledge not only the influences, but where we are today.

27:01

And the reality is much of it being worked out live, you know, as we're studying, as we're researching.

27:08

And I want to say, I 100 % respect that answer. I know you haven't completed your answer, but I want to say,

27:13

I'm still working out things too. So praise the Lord, none of us have arrived. And I just say, thank

27:19

God. Yeah, I would concur completely. I think that's why these dialogues are important, because it's iron sharpening iron.

27:25

Amen. There's times to debate, but I think there's also time when two brothers interact and maybe edges are knocked off.

27:36

You know, maybe there's time for deeper reflection on things. So, yes, historically, I have understood the law, as you mentioned, the eternal moral law.

27:45

Yes, also the civil. And when I say civil, that would include criminal, because, you know, some people are civil and they think, well, that's just, you know, like family court.

27:56

That would include the criminal component as well, because if the magistrate's been given the sword, well,

28:05

I mean, that's the criminal component, Romans 13. And then, of course, the ceremonial

28:11

Christ fulfilling that, you know, we just point to the book of Hebrews as our primary reference, certainly the sum total of the

28:18

New Testament, but I think Hebrews would be the starting point there. So I do feel comfortable with that as a default.

28:26

However, like most positions, I find that when we try to fit comfortably in there and if you're honest, and I don't mean you, but I'm just saying if a theologian or someone who is studying

28:37

Scripture is honest, I think the best position is to acknowledge some of our presuppositions, acknowledge where we are today, and then talk about the journey we're on as we're continuing to explore and evaluate and think through this, because it's one thing to hold something in abstract.

28:53

It's something entirely different when you're thinking about it in practical terms. So let me give you what

28:59

I think is a real world example here, one that we probably would find more agreement on than disagreement, and that is the issue of no -fault divorces.

29:10

Okay? We live in a society today where, and I think this is where Christians needed to stop and really think about the deconstructing around them that was happening.

29:21

So as a Christian Reconstructionist, there's going to be probably, I would argue, the vast majority of what

29:26

I espouse and put forward that many Christians could get behind, regardless of where they stand on covenantal theology or their eschatology.

29:36

And so let's just go back, Keith, and if we can, you and I are probably close in age. Let's go back 20, 25 years ago, and the conversation started about gay marriage, started becoming more and more in vogue, and then it grew in intensity.

29:54

And all along, one of the arguments was being leveraged against Christians was the percentage of Christians that were divorced.

30:01

Now they took the whole sum total of Christianity. That meant anybody and everybody. It didn't mean just evangelicals, which when you look at the statistics, it was troubling.

30:11

They said, well, look, you all don't even respect marriage. And the reality is in society, really from the 60s, we were moving fast to this place of no -fault divorce.

30:21

So marriage, by the time you get to this question of gay marriage, marriage in society as a whole was being viewed as a contract.

30:33

So I would argue as a Christian Reconstructionist, and if you will, let's throw in some theonomist points here.

30:40

Not that I would say I fully endorse theonomy, but there's some aspects that have certainly influenced my thinking.

30:46

And what we've done now is we've said this is no longer a covenant. As a society, we've said it's not a covenant anymore. And then we start hearing arguments like, well, if the woman's being abused and certain things like that, well,

30:56

I think the New Testament does provide us some principles and guidance there. And I think there are principles that would need to be brought forward and discussed.

31:05

I think in the past, our forefathers did that. I think that they attempted to do it well.

31:10

There were times they did it really wrong and did not do a good job of it. However, I just use that as a kind of as a case study to kind of bring something forward to say, okay, so let's talk about bringing marriage back to actually being a religious covenant versus just a contract.

31:28

Why is the state even in the business of marriages? Most people don't even talk about that.

31:33

The reason the state even got involved in the business of marriage and the church outsourced its responsibility to the state.

31:40

And this is part of Reconstructionism is saying there are two spheres here. Let's bring back to the church what actually belongs in that sphere.

31:48

I've been influenced by Kuyper. I probably should have jumped out with that right away. Abraham Kuyper has probably been one of the leading influences in my thinking.

31:54

Don't agree with him on everything. Why don't we bring that back to the proper sphere? The reason that the government got involved was because the government didn't want to be responsible for taking care of a bunch of illegitimate children.

32:05

I use that word loosely. I don't want to use it in a derogatory way or to be unloving towards anyone.

32:11

However, the government got in that business of marriage because the idea was you incentivize fathers to take care of children.

32:20

Of course, now we see in the deconstructing, the Marxist view is to get the father out of the home. And then what we started doing is the church over a 200 -year period is outsourced.

32:31

So part of Reconstructionism is to say, okay, we need to get back to where God stands on this.

32:38

And as a society, as a whole, our expectation is that the law would reflect what we're finding in scripture.

32:47

Now, how do we do that? You have to play the long game. It's going to go back to the family. Fathers in the home, loving their wife as Christ loves the church, raising successive generations of Christians who are committed to go out into the workplace to be that influence.

33:01

And I don't mean not only telling people the gospel like that's no big deal. I mean, that's a huge deal.

33:06

That's everything. I mean, everything rests on that, sharing the gospel with people. But understanding that now that shapes your worldview, that means you're there.

33:14

I did a podcast on understanding your workplace as a Christian workplace. Everybody's running around saying, well, I don't work in a

33:19

Christian workplace. Well, are you there? Are you a Christian? Claim dominion for Christ. Go in with the right aspect, the right perspective, the right principles, saying, okay, this is a

33:28

Christian workplace because I'm here naming Jesus Christ. So that's just kind of a snapshot. I want to throw it back to you.

33:34

Kind of give you a little insight into the thinking because this isn't just a reactionary thinking.

33:39

In some degrees, Christian reconstructionism is reaction, but it's not simply a knee -jerk reaction.

33:45

We're looking at the past 200 years, and we're talking about what's the next 100 years look like.

33:53

Well, this brings up a very interesting question, and this may seem a little bit like a departure, but I have to ask because this is a question

34:00

I've been asked more than once. Having been in ministry now 18 years in full -time ministry,

34:07

I've done dozens of weddings, and there have been several times where I have been asked, do

34:12

I believe that a marriage license is something that a person should have to get, or should the church be able to simply administer a wedding without the state's involvement or approval?

34:24

And I don't want to nail you down on this question. I realize this may be a legal matter.

34:30

But ultimately, I've never done a wedding that didn't involve a marriage license.

34:36

Personally, I have not done one. Do you think if a minister did that that he would be right, wrong, or what are your thoughts, if you feel comfortable answering that?

34:46

Yes, no problem. I don't practice family law, so I'm going to just acknowledge right away I'm a novice when it comes to family law.

34:53

I'm a family man, and I think that would qualify me. So let me say this. So I want to think about where we were.

35:01

So there's a time in history, Keith, and I'm not going to lecture you on church history. You are well acquainted with these things.

35:06

But I think for our listeners, this may be helpful. There was a time when the church and state weren't separate, and the state had to come to the church to get a marriage license.

35:14

I mean, we could think of the start of the Anglican church. I mean, there's case in point, right?

35:20

We've got to go to the church to get a divorce. You've got to go to church to remarry, this sort of thing. So obviously we see that, and people have an immediate reaction like, that's wrong.

35:29

You shouldn't have to do that. The problem is when we're looking at that, we see a system that by that point had become so abused, and it had become so political that it wasn't the ecclesia anymore.

35:41

It wasn't the church, the local church. It had become a political entity, if you will, a mega power in the world, shaping geopolitics around the world.

35:52

I think at that point the church had moved away from the proclamation of the gospel to being focused on geopolitics.

36:00

So looking at that as a reference point, so we say, okay, well then there's the other option that it just be given to a secular state.

36:06

Because here's the reality. When you give it to a secular state, we no longer define what it means.

36:12

So essentially you've got these two polars. Now you've got this tension now that we live in.

36:17

Because in some respects we do live as Americans under kind of what I would say almost a dual sovereignty in the sense that, okay, obviously

36:26

Christ is completely sovereign overall. So that's just, that's a given here.

36:31

But we also live as citizens under a sovereign, and I would argue in citizens we live under dual sovereignty.

36:39

I live under the sovereignty of the state of Florida and of the sovereignty of the United States of America. And so there are clear teachings in scripture that we're to respect the governing powers, that God has placed them there.

36:52

We can get into some of that what good government and supplying good government, that's fine. But the reality here is

36:57

I say that we're living in this tension, okay. I would never advocate in the current circumstances that we are for a pastor to marry a man and woman, a

37:06

Christian couple, and tell them not to go and get a license. Because I think where we are right now in history, where we are right now in history, that actually would create confusion, that could bring disrepute to the body of Christ.

37:20

So, however, I think when we think about Christian reconstructionism, the way that I understand

37:28

Christian reconstructionism isn't necessarily taking out completely from the sphere of the state a responsibility to promote right religion.

37:38

See, because the state issuing marriage license can be a way of the state promoting right religion.

37:45

Now, the state is promoting a religion right now, and it's using marriage to promote a religion, but we would argue that it's not promoting right religion.

37:52

So part of Christian reconstructionism is understanding that, okay, it isn't simply about a marriage law.

37:59

It's about raising up successive generations of leaders who are the lawmakers, if you will.

38:06

They're the legislators. They're the executives. They're the judicial branches who are understanding the world and making decisions based on a

38:14

Christian worldview to where now you're in that position and you have the two spheres working together, both under the sovereignty of Christ.

38:24

That, in my mind, is the ideal. We're not there, but I would argue in today's context, it would create way too much confusion, bring disrepute on the church, and I would even argue it probably would begin to get that church labeled as a cult.

38:38

Hmm. That's a strong point, and I have, like I said,

38:45

I have never done one without one, and I've said I wouldn't, and I didn't give the exact answers you gave, but somewhat of a similar answer.

38:54

I said, you know, we are in a context where that would be very difficult, and it would create what could lead to some legal issues, but also

39:01

I said the state does have at this point a, I want to make sure

39:08

I say this the right way because I don't want someone to misunderstand me. The state has a vested interest in knowing who the citizens are, who families are, and when families are created through marriage, the state has an interest in that, and therefore, you know, there is a part that the state plays in that.

39:24

And as you said, because we are now in a, we're not where the church and state are together, but they are separate, we have to recognize those spheres of authority and what their roles are.

39:35

And so is that, do you think that's me saying too much, or is that kind of in line? I think it's fair. I think it's fair.

39:40

I find a great deal of agreement, and I would just want to acknowledge that I do endorse and hold to the two spheres, that there are, there's certain authority given to the governmental sphere and a certain authority given to the ecclesiastical sphere.

39:56

So I do endorse that. I think if you were to say to me, Keith, you would say, okay,

40:03

I'm fast forwarding 50 years from now, and now the government, the laws are such on marriage that it is causing us to have to go against our faith in ways that are unhealthy, unbiblical, bring disrepute on our

40:19

Lord. Now that's a different conversation. Now I think we're talking about what's that look like for the church.

40:26

Because, Keith, under the headship of Christ, there has to be an authority, that is the elders in a local church, depending on one's particular denominational makeup, where if, and here's the, again,

40:40

I think another problem. We outsourced church discipline to the state.

40:46

See, marriage and divorce, that's, particularly when you come to the aspects or elements leading up to divorce.

40:55

Those are church discipline issues. Now someone immediately say, well, okay, if a woman's being abused, she shouldn't call the police, she should be the elders.

41:02

I didn't say any of that. Okay. Because I also understand that there are laws, and I believe that they're inherently

41:09

Christian, like protecting the vulnerable. Okay. So I would never tell or even insinuate that a woman who's suffering abuse at the hands of her husband shouldn't call law enforcement.

41:22

However, I do believe that the church had outsourced, by basically throwing church discipline out the window years ago, they outsourced church discipline to the courts.

41:34

And let's say that man, he's an adulterer. Okay. What are the ramifications to the local church?

41:41

Here's the ramifications, Keith, you and I know this. He just goes and leaves that church and goes and joins the one down the street for the most part.

41:49

I mean, so what's a church letter anymore? It's just a box checked and it's a postcard sent off somewhere.

41:56

So when we look at these issues, what I dare say, and I may be overstepping here, is when

42:02

I really get down to the nitty gritty of Christian reconstructionism, I'm going to find a lot of allies.

42:07

I'm going to find a lot of people agreeing with a lot of points that I'm making, especially when you talk about issues like marriage, church discipline, how we've just basically thrown it out.

42:18

No one wants to talk about that anymore. And I just want to throw this in there. I want to say something else. And I think here's another way what's happened, particularly within the hyper -feminization of the church.

42:29

Church discipline's gone, hyper -feminization of the church, and we're not wanting to hold men accountable.

42:35

But we're also not wanting to hold women accountable. What happens is in the church, we adopt this ethos that doesn't come from the

42:41

Bible, but comes from society. For example, I'll give you an example. Single mothers. Now, we're very clear.

42:48

Okay, that's a circumstance. It's a circumstance. It's a result of some sort of sin. Okay? And we're not here to beat up single moms.

42:56

We're not going to do that. Okay? That's not my goal, my agenda. But society celebrates it like it's a virtue.

43:03

And then it comes into the church, and we're supposed to celebrate it like it's a virtue. It's not a virtue.

43:09

It's a circumstance one should strive to avoid. And in Christian reconstructionism, someone says, okay, what's the deal?

43:16

Well, the deal needs to be there. It needs to be accountability. And that accountability being in the local church, certainly there can be some within the state as well, because there would be parameters.

43:25

Where's the accountability for that man who's not taking care of his kids? Well, we just count on the state called making him pay child support.

43:34

But if the church was still playing the proper role that it would as the cornerstone of society, as the local church being the most important institution in a community, church discipline would also have something to say about this matter.

43:47

There's just a few more thoughts on it. No, I think that's very helpful. And I think one of the things that might strike people as hard to wrap their mind around this is something that you said in the midst of that.

44:06

You made the point that church discipline now is hard to enforce because, say, our church levels discipline against a man who has committed adultery, is unrepentant, and we've chosen to exercise discipline on this man.

44:23

And he simply abandons his wife and family, goes to the church down the street, gets his mistress, goes to the church down the street, and they welcome him, marry them.

44:31

No problem, right? Because they're looking for new members. And so because of this widespread divergence of moral integrity, and I would even say theological integrity that is within churches, it's hard,

44:50

I think, for people to imagine there being a righteous church that can be trusted and relied on.

44:59

I want to believe that there is. But there are so many of the big

45:06

Eva, big box churches, the Sam's Choice, Walmart examples of Christianity, which are giving membership out by virtue of simply having a heartbeat.

45:18

There's so much of that out there. Is Christian Reconstructionism, is part of your mindset the recapturing of those churches or the,

45:30

I don't want to say elimination of them, but for lack of a better word, overcoming those churches?

45:36

What is your vision for that? It's multifaceted. I'm glad you've asked that because it is something that I've given serious thought to.

45:44

And among some of my peers and colleagues, we've had a number of conversations about this. So, first of all, let me say this.

45:51

I'm not against the other local church. I'm not against the church that we may have some disagreements there.

45:57

I want to be very clear. If they're preaching the gospel and people are coming to Christ, I rejoice in that.

46:04

I think when I'm thinking in a larger, larger kind of political, societal system,

46:09

I recognize, well, first of all, let me say this. Here's one thing I recognize is that that is a fad.

46:16

The big box church is a fad. It will see its own end.

46:23

It cannot be sustained. And especially, the problem I think most evangelicals have is they have a four -year outlook.

46:31

We're talking about a 40 -year outlook. And that is if this president wins or that one loses, we're going to make it, gas prices are up.

46:37

The reality is that, well, I'm not predicting the future and I will never try to predict the future.

46:43

I mean, but we can watch and look at the trajectory of our society. And the reality is if we're not raising up successive generations, we're going to be able to stand for Christ in the midst of some serious opposition and persecution.

46:56

I mean, I graduated high school in 1995. And I can tell you this, just in almost 30 years, to see the rapid increase in persecution, it's not just theoretical.

47:08

It is real and the pressures are real. Those types of churches cannot survive that.

47:14

They either become fully compromised and fully integrated into the society's secular ethos, which many of them have already moved that way anyway.

47:24

Here's the good news, though, is that while they, in some respects, kind of go through a fad,

47:30

I think eventually you see that kind of, you know, there are always going to be different variations.

47:35

But what we have now is some of the most conservative generations are coming up. Generation Alpha, particularly, is one of the most conservative.

47:43

We're seeing massive resurgence. If you look at some of the statistics that are coming out, I just had a friend share an article with me the other day, and I can get it to you at a later point.

47:51

I don't have access to it right now. But talking about young men in their 20s coming back to church at a percentage that we haven't seen in generations, we're seeing it on the ground.

48:00

Anecdotally, we're seeing it that young men are, we're 20, 30 -year -old young men.

48:06

They want to be part of something. They want to be part of what we're talking about. So we're seeing that. So that leads me to this.

48:12

Part of our plan as Christian Reconstructionists is this, and I've said this publicly from the pulpit, is that the woke church down the street,

48:21

I'm just going to pick on a woke church for right now. I won't obviously say any names. But the woke church down the street, that our intentions are to raise up successive generations of godly men and women, that when that thing crumbles under its own weight, that we will send in church planning pastors.

48:36

We will send in those multiple generations to rebuild that gospel presence in that community.

48:41

So I hope what you're hearing is something that's inherently missional. I'm not wishing the demise of any other church. But what we're doing is we're looking at this, playing the long game, saying, okay, you've got big box church.

48:51

You've got the small church and medium -sized church. And some of these are just not making it.

48:57

And society is changing. The pressures are pushing in on them. And what we're saying is, okay, circle the wagons.

49:04

Start preparing successive generations to go back into those communities, into those places.

49:09

And if you will, restart, or let me go back to my word, reconstruct what's been deconstructed.

49:17

A lot of these young men, and I'd love to see that article, by the way, a lot of these young men in their 20s are also not looking for the concert churches.

49:31

A lot of them are looking for the more traditional, and it's not all about music.

49:37

But oftentimes, the traditional music is more appealing because they've been to the concerts.

49:42

They've seen all that. It's not appealing to them. And one of the things, I did another show a few months ago where I talked to a few young men about how it's unfortunately been a draw for Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.

49:57

Because there is so much tradition and so much high church, and the smells and bells and all that of the traditional movement has been somewhat appealing to these young men, as you said, who want to be a part of something.

50:10

So, as I said, I'm agreeing with you, and I'd love to read the article because I'm encouraged, but at the same time, a little nervous about what is appealing to some of them because it's appealing in some of the directions,

50:26

I would say, are not good. I agree with you, and let me just put all my cards on the table here.

50:35

One of the things I recognize is that there is a draw. I even think about myself, thinking about structure, thinking about liturgy, right?

50:48

Every church has a liturgy. Church says, well, we just do whatever the spirit tells us. Well, that's a liturgy. Okay, whatever.

50:56

But here's the thing. We took a step back, okay? And I'm going to go back 10 years because I want to hit on this because I think this isn't just Christian Reconstructionism, but I think it's part of it.

51:04

It's part and parcel to how this actually plays out in the local church. Certainly, I can talk about how it plays out in the local, in the workplace, because I'm putting feet on the ground.

51:13

When you said tentmaker, I'm intentional about being a tentmaker. The church I pastor, I could work only for the church, but I've been intentional to say, okay, no, here's what

51:22

I want to do in this season of life, this season of ministry. So when we think about this, take a step back, okay?

51:29

So as a dad, I go to a recital or a graduation. I got to have the thing in my hand that lists all the kids' names so I can watch and just check till you get to my kid's name because I want to make sure

51:41

I'm paying attention because if I got caught not paying attention, I'm in trouble. And after you get to my kid's name, I'm like, okay, there's 35 left.

51:48

Okay, I'm checking how much longer I got to be here. There's 35 left. Because the reality is that God created men to lead, to be conquerors, to be in control, to have dominion.

51:56

We show up to something, we have no control. Next thing you know, somebody put in a church environment, somebody's taking your kids away.

52:03

You don't know who's got your kids. That control element's gone. You have no idea when the lights are on, off.

52:10

Total chaos in your mind's going on. We got a couple Jesus Boyfriend songs blaring. It's complete chaos.

52:17

And when I think about biblical masculinity and being a man, part of that is you're trying to have control of that environment around you.

52:24

So one of the things we started was just have that worship guide where the men can walk through the liturgy. And then it makes sense.

52:31

We incorporate the men in it, give them some stake in it, right? Their kids are with them, this sort of thing. So when I look at that,

52:36

I'm saying, okay, there's a drawl. And I think that drawl isn't necessarily just Christian.

52:43

I think it's inherently part of being that the Imago Dei, the man, is to have dominion, exercising, having control around you, these sorts of things.

52:51

And so, yeah, when you look at, you know, the Latin Mass and you look at Eastern Orthodoxy, you know, a man comes in and he's like, okay,

52:59

I understand the rhythm. I don't understand the doctrine, okay?

53:05

But I understand the rhythm. And I think that's where it's evangelicals. And I use that term loosely.

53:10

I don't really like that term anymore because it's so filled with a lot of weakness and nonsense. But as evangelicals,

53:16

I think we've got to recognize that God is a God of order, God of structure.

53:22

And I think we need to recognize that, I would argue, as a Christian Reconstructionist, part of what I'm trying to do is incorporate that ethos, that biblical ethos, as I understand it, back into even a worship service.

53:35

There's some thoughts. No, I think it's great. And I agree. We have a very structured worship service at Sovereign Grace.

53:46

And we have a bulletin that we provide to people that tell them what's going to happen. And our service ends each week with the

53:55

Lord's Supper. That's one thing that we do is a weekly participation in the ordinance of the table.

54:01

And a lot of people find that odd, especially who are coming from a Southern Baptist church or from other places, that they're used to ending the service with an invitation.

54:10

They're used to ending the service with people going forward and praying or the pastor standing there and welcoming people to come forward who are contrite or wanting to pray a prayer or whatever.

54:21

We end with the bread and the cup. And sometimes people find that odd the first time because they're not used to it.

54:30

But then they begin to see the beauty of having that as a standardized part of worship that we're always going to do.

54:38

We're always going to do it this way. And I think there's some comfort in that. Keith, let me add something to that, if I may.

54:45

I want to go back to that because I think you and I, if we're just going to have a conversation about liturgy structure and the philosophy of it,

54:53

I think you and I completely understand each other. I understand everything you're saying and you're understanding where I'm at. But I want to take this and help people understand and listening that the worship gathering of the church is the model for how society should be ordered and operated.

55:08

The church, go back to my principle, the church being the most important institution in the community. So when

55:14

I think about that, this idea, what we did as a church is we adopted this concept with young men.

55:20

And Christian Reconstructionists are pushing back saying, OK, we don't just send our young men out to figure it out. Where does that come in biblically?

55:28

OK, when they go to just try to figure it out, they create chaos because they need someone helping them to understand the order and the structure and the intentionality.

55:37

So here's what we've done is we've adopted these ideas that we're just going to send these young men out and they'll just figure it out. Well, oftentimes they don't.

55:44

They will make a shipwreck of it. And so when I think about that, what we're doing is we're creating, if you will, the microcosm of what the macro should look like.

55:55

OK, and what that means is that these are men in your life who are holding you accountable.

56:02

And I can tell you right now, I tell the men in our church, don't let your son camp out at your house and live in your home forever.

56:09

I mean, you need you need to need to be discussing a very intentional, thoughtful plan.

56:15

And there needs to be some direction, some very clear direction. And the father is the head of the home, if he was the prophet, priest and king of that home under the sovereign authority of Jesus Christ, should be helping his sons lay that plan out, walking through.

56:30

And that doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit doesn't lead them in a there's some sort of divergence from that plan.

56:36

But this idea of just sending our sons out, well, Christian Reconstructionists would say we don't we don't just send our sons out to figure it out.

56:43

We were helping them each step of the way as they are walking through that plan and executing that plan.

56:49

And not just our sons. I'd also argue our daughters as well. But I want to start with the sons. And so I would

56:54

I would suggest what we did as a church is we kind of just adopted this. And I say the church is generally speaking, adopted this model that we send kids out to figure it out.

57:02

They're going to figure it out from 18 to 22 with a bunch of 18 to 22 year olds with a lot of alcohol and drugs and promiscuity around them.

57:10

And then they'll just figure it out. And don't worry, when they're 30, they'll show back up because they're freaked out. Now they've got kids and they don't know what to do.

57:16

So I would argue that the worship service, the governance of the church, the function and the ecclesiastical structure is a microcosm.

57:26

And so if we only want to get down to Christian Reconstructionism, it must start in the local church. So I don't want people to think it's some sort of dichotomy where I'm like, well, there's the church and this is what we do on Sunday.

57:39

And it has no effect on what's going on in everyday life. It absolutely does.

57:45

And I think you'll find a lot of agreement there amongst thoughtful conservative evangelicals.

57:52

Yeah. And I like the phrase you used earlier, going back to your six things, where you said that the local church is a leadership factory.

58:00

I think that's a... I'm very good at adopting language that I hear from other people.

58:08

So you may hear me say that again. And if anybody hears me say it, they can know I got it from...

58:13

Well, it's not original to me. I will tell you, I think it was... He's one of the brothers that was preaching at...

58:22

Ligonier has a conference every year and he died just a couple of years ago. He did some books on leadership. His name escapes me off the top of my head, but I found it in his leadership book.

58:32

So I don't want to take credit for it. The name just escapes me right now. But I just passed away a few years ago, went on to be with the

58:40

Lord, but he had written a leadership book. In fact, I think it may have just been a year ago or so that he passed away.

58:45

I'm thinking I might know who it is, but I can't think of his name. I think his last name is Reeder or just escapes me.

58:52

But anyway, I just want to give credit where credit's due. That's where it originated. You know, I use this phrase and I'd like to get your thought on this.

59:00

I've said before, I believe the church is an institution of higher learning. And by that, what I mean is

59:06

I believe the church has the responsibility of training up men in the way... Not every man is going to go to college for his particular career, but every man should be instructed in doctrine and theology and history and these things from the church.

59:23

The church should be a place where he can go and learn these things, not just to build up his brain, but to make him a better man and to make him a more well -rounded man.

59:33

What are your thoughts on that? I wholly agree with that. I reject the dichotomy of higher education.

59:40

Like if my father was an electrician by trade, but one of the smartest men I've ever met in my life, if not the smartest.

59:47

And so I can tell you right now, we're surrounded by farmers here who are some of the... I can tell you right now, they will put a professor to shame when it comes to science.

59:55

I mean, these men are brilliant men. And so I think there's... Well, to your point, no, everyone doesn't have to go to college.

01:00:01

In fact, everyone shouldn't go to college. However, the church does have a responsibility.

01:00:07

And I would argue if we go back and look at the classical model of education and we get back to...

01:00:12

You mentioned history, theology. So right there, I mean, you're in the humanities. All my degrees...

01:00:18

Well, actually, five of my degrees are in humanities. One isn't. One is in leadership organization. So we go back to the humanities.

01:00:24

What we need to do is in the church, yes, we start with the queen of the sciences, theology. But Keith, I think this is one of the struggles

01:00:33

I have with some of my Reformed brethren. Now, I would say there's a great deal I agree with in Reformed theology, worldview, philosophy.

01:00:42

But this is where I think this would be a good point of reference for maybe even some thoughtful reflection from some of my

01:00:48

Reformed brothers. Because they do a fantastic job in teaching theology. And I've told people this.

01:00:54

If you want to hear faithful exposition of the scripture, you go to a Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist conference.

01:01:00

You're going to hear it. However, I think we have failed. The church at large has failed.

01:01:07

And I would argue many of my Reformed brethren have failed to talk about how the queen of the sciences affects all the other sciences.

01:01:15

So you've got a brother in your church. He's a carpenter. You've got another brother who's a postman. You've got another one.

01:01:21

He's a professor of humanities. You just pick the discipline.

01:01:27

You pick it. You've got a guy who's an accountant. I don't care. Pick the discipline. And help me understand, how is the church helping him to understand his discipline from a

01:01:40

Christian worldview? And to understand that this dichotomy that he was taught between the secular and sacred is wrong.

01:01:50

Because every discipline should be understood and function in a way that glorifies

01:01:57

God. I'll give you an example. Just a real quick example. Okay? When I think about math, you know, even before we get into economics or accounting, math is a structure of order.

01:02:06

I mean, it's the foundation of understanding the cosmos. It's the foundation of being able to, for music, to be able to, if you will.

01:02:16

I know people play by ear. But still, you have math. You have timing. You have movements. So when you think about the structure of math itself, it's a science, but it's subservient to the queen of the sciences, which is theology.

01:02:29

So I would argue that the churches do, many churches that I admire, many pastors I look up to, do a fantastic job of teaching theology.

01:02:39

But when it comes to, as soon as you show up and they come up against economics or political science, other than just saying who to vote for, or sociology or any other of these ologies, they fall off the cliff.

01:02:51

I mean, think about youth group. What are we teaching in youth group? Should we teach sound theology? That's right. But other than kickball and pizza, we got to have a conversation and talk to them about how theology should influence their interpretation and understanding of any and every discipline that they encounter.

01:03:11

I think if you think about reconstructionism, this is some of what we're talking about is bringing much of this back to the local church.

01:03:17

And if I could just key on this phrase that I want to keep coming back to and back to and back to, we have to stop outsourcing things and start bringing it back in.

01:03:29

So while many churches have to do a great job with theological education, they develop theological institutes, disciple universities, these sorts of things.

01:03:38

When was the last time you were at a local church and someone was teaching a class on how to understand the law?

01:03:47

I'm talking not the Old Testament law. I'm talking about the law around you from a Christian worldview.

01:03:53

I mean, I think it's a fair question. Yeah, no, that is a great question.

01:04:00

At Sovereign Grace, we have a two -year academy that we created about six years ago.

01:04:06

And it was the idea that we wanted to be able to provide classes for people who wanted to study things like history.

01:04:14

And so we have a two -year, we call it basic ministry training. And anybody can take it.

01:04:20

It's not just for people who want to be pastors, but it's a good start. If a person says, hey, I think I want to go in the ministry or I think

01:04:26

God's calling me in the ministry. And we do eight core classes. We do a class in Old Testament Survey, New Testament Survey, hermeneutics, history, doctrine, and theology.

01:04:36

And one of our classes is ethics. And the reason why I bring this up is in the ethics class, we deal with a lot of legal issues.

01:04:44

And how as Christians are we to engage with issues like we have an entire class on life ethics and death ethics regarding things like abortion, euthanasia.

01:04:55

How are we to come at those things from a biblical worldview? And it is hard sometimes because the playing field's always changing.

01:05:05

I mean, the issue of euthanasia, it's always moving. I mean, they're always moving the bar. And when it comes to things like IVF and abortion and all of these other issues,

01:05:15

I mean, things that are possible now weren't even, were science fiction 40 years ago and now are happening.

01:05:23

And how are we to address those things? And it's difficult. I mean, I've taught the class.

01:05:28

I can tell you how hard it is. We talk through the questions. And as a person who studies scripture and has been a pastor for a couple of decades now, it's still hard sometimes to really work through those questions for sure.

01:05:44

Well, let me commend you, brother. I'm excited to hear that testimony. And it's very encouraging to me. You know,

01:05:50

I think back to great thinkers like Francis Schaeffer and his influence on other thinkers, you know, like Nancy Piercy, her book,

01:05:59

Total Truth. I think about some of these works and I go back and I think about Schaeffer's influence. Of course, I think about who influenced

01:06:04

Schaeffer. And, you know, let me just jump into another discipline. You know, Schaeffer is going to be helpful in understanding the queen of the sciences, theology, how it dictates how we interpret art.

01:06:16

You know, I was in Romania. No, it wasn't

01:06:21

Romania. I was in Romania a couple of years ago, but I've got the trips mixed up. I was in the Dominican Republic, I think two, three years ago.

01:06:29

And we went to an art museum. Myself, another devout Christian man where they're teaching hermeneutics.

01:06:35

By the way, if I'm on the mission field, I want to teach hermeneutics. You know, listen, I'm all about putting wells in the ground.

01:06:41

We're for that. We support that. But we want to make sure we give people tools so that they can then continue to make disciples.

01:06:48

But we went to an art museum because we had some time to kill. We walked around. Here's what I said. And I think,

01:06:54

OK, when you think Christian reconstructionism and deconstruction, I want to go back to that point as a reference point. We're walking around the art museum.

01:07:00

And guess what I see? I see deconstruction. That is as a worldview, as an ideology, deconstruction.

01:07:07

The art itself was a manifestation and reflection of that. How would a

01:07:13

Christian go in and interpret that? How do they go in and understand that? I mentioned to my friend, I said, you know, 100 years from now, if this is a thousand years from now,

01:07:22

I think that'd be more appropriate. A thousand years from now, they dig this place up, right? Let's say it's all in rubble and they dig it up. How would they know what was art and what's trash?

01:07:31

How would they distinguish? Honestly, I'm going to tell you right now, when we look at art, and I'm not being mean spirited.

01:07:38

OK, I'm not saying the artists who put their heart into that. That's not my point. My point is just to try to look at it factually and say,

01:07:44

OK, if someone a thousand years from now dug this place up, would they be able to distinguish art from trash?

01:07:51

And I don't mean to call what they did trash. But could they really distinguish between the two? So as a

01:07:56

Christian comes in, basically the Christian ethos that that's really been pervasive for the past 40 years as well.

01:08:03

You know, don't say anything mean. Be nice. Oh, that looks really nice. And we forget that that art is now a manifestation.

01:08:12

The art in a society, the art, the architecture, you can just go down the disciplines, are manifestations of a particular worldview and a religion.

01:08:22

And more often than not, it's the religion that that society, and particularly its government, is endorsing or promoting.

01:08:29

And it's manifesting. So as a Christian, have I been trained and taught to go in and to be able to interpret?

01:08:37

So we talk about interpreting scripture, Keith, and that's where we start. OK, don't get me wrong. That is our starting point.

01:08:43

And that is the most essential. But are we do we have the ability as Christians?

01:08:49

I think we do. And are we training others to have the ability to then interpret our context and to do it in a way?

01:08:56

I agree with your points on some of these high level issues, and I don't want to minimize them ever.

01:09:02

You know, life, marriage, the ethics of those things. OK, but what I want to say is once once we get to where people are,

01:09:11

OK, they check those boxes. They're with us. Biblical worldview. OK, now I'm taking my kid through an art studio. OK, or hey,

01:09:16

I'm taking my kid to the to the quote unquote Natural History Museum. OK, how am I helping them interpret this?

01:09:22

OK, I can't just always default to, well, look, the Bible says it's a it's a six day creation.

01:09:27

OK, that's a default position. OK, fine. However, I've got to help them interpret everything around them wherever they are, whether it's an economical system, whether it is a legal system, a political system, or like I just gave the example of just walking around in an art museum.

01:09:46

How are they going to be able to distinguish that? And I think that's where when we talk about Christian reconstructionism, because it's such a holistic view, it's not simply like, well, we can't wait to take over.

01:09:57

You know, that that is not where I'm at. That isn't what this is about. It's about every aspect of society from that art studio all the way to the

01:10:08

White House, every single aspect. That's why we can say a 40 year plan, a hundred year plan, a 10 generation plan.

01:10:14

That's how we think. Well, brother, I really have learned a lot listening to you, and I hate to have to draw to a close.

01:10:23

We've gone past an hour tonight and I've been so encouraged by a lot of what you've said.

01:10:29

I've learned a lot talking to you. So I hate to have to draw us to a close. But I do have two final questions

01:10:36

I'd like to ask you, if you don't mind, just to bring this to a point where we can close it. And maybe a third question would be, would you mind coming back one day and we can flesh out more of this?

01:10:45

I would love to have you back on the show another time. But the two questions I would ask, one, if you wanted to recommend a written resource for someone on the subject of what you believe in, the things that you teach, and you said, here's a book or here's an author.

01:11:03

You've already mentioned Schaefer and a few others. But someone that you would say, here's a good place to start if you want to start thinking through these issues and something that really helped you.

01:11:12

That would be number one. And the second question I want to ask, and you can go as far or as short as you want.

01:11:18

And that is, in our conversation, which was on the phone a couple weeks ago when we were talking about the show, you mentioned having gone to your son's football game, basically putting feet to what you believe.

01:11:30

What does it look like to be a Christian Reconstructionist in the world? And you don't have to tell the whole story about the football game.

01:11:35

But I was reminded about the fact that you go out and you're actually sharing the gospel. You're not just preaching these things from the pulpit, but you're out in the community.

01:11:44

So if you don't mind speaking to those two issues and then we'll draw everything together. Thank you,

01:11:50

Keith. I appreciate that as a transition. If you don't mind, I want to acknowledge the God's Lawyer podcast and encourage folks, if they want to check out some more things, some things

01:11:58

I'm talking about, we'd appreciate that. I also want to just acknowledge real quick, Mr. Felipe Ruiz.

01:12:04

He's the producer. He and I are partners in the God's Lawyer podcast. I just want to say thank you to Felipe for setting things up.

01:12:10

He truly is a good friend and a colleague in ministry who I admire and have a great deal of respect for.

01:12:16

So here's the thing, Keith. Let me just the first one's going to be quick, easy, right to the point. Look, I'm going to tell you right now, if you want to start in this conversation, you want to start thinking through some things.

01:12:26

Let's start with Abraham Kuyper, his book, Our Program. It's a series of articles that he wrote just kind of laying out kind of the political components, understanding some things.

01:12:37

I would also just kind of just piggyback right away on that. There's a three volume set, Pro Rege, which is just Latin for for our king or for the king.

01:12:47

Pro Rege, P -R -O -R -E -G -E. It's a three volume set. I would argue that there's a great deal there.

01:12:54

He and I, obviously, I'm not going to agree, you know, particularly with his with his view on a number of things.

01:13:00

Probably, you know, he falls in more of a camp. He's a Presbyterian, so he's going to fall in some camps there.

01:13:05

Some things I'm going to disagree with. So also with the football, I thank you for that, because I do think that we've got to push back

01:13:12

Christian nationalism, Christian reconstructionism, whatever labels people are using. We've got to get out of the

01:13:18

Twitter wars. I mean, I just don't live in that sphere. I don't think that's where we really fight this battle.

01:13:25

Christian reconstructionism doesn't operate in the Twitter sphere. OK, and listen, I'm not trying to throw darts at anybody.

01:13:32

I'm just saying the reality is, is there's look, there's nothing wrong with being on Twitter, nothing wrong being on social media if it's being used for godly reasons.

01:13:38

But I think there's a lot of stuff out there where guys are just arguing and battling over and over.

01:13:44

Just I think we just got to get back on the streets. I mean, a Christian reconstructionist has his feet firmly planted on the ground in his community.

01:13:52

So every home football game I go and I evangelize. We've got some particular techniques.

01:13:57

We use some apologetics. We engage the students. I walk up and I'll say something like, we'll have T -shirts.

01:14:03

We have money. Some people have criticized what you're trying to buy disciples. And I said, well, then, you know, show us your technique while you're criticizing us.

01:14:10

We we don't give kids money just to give them money. So what I'll do is I'll walk into a crowd of about 30 kids and I'll say, if anybody in this group will ask me the hardest question they can think of about God, Jesus or the

01:14:21

Bible. And if you listen to the answer, I'll give you five or ten dollars. So then they have to listen to the answer.

01:14:26

So I get 10 minutes to share the gospel with 30 kids. It costs me 10 bucks. OK, so people criticize whatever.

01:14:33

That's fine. I'm going to roll with it. I got shut down a few weeks ago handing out T -shirts. They shut me down so I couldn't hand out the

01:14:40

T -shirts. So I put them up. I said, no problem. But I do have the right to be here. And I can't hand out money because, you know, you just can't stop me from doing that.

01:14:49

And they couldn't stop me from sharing the gospel as well. So I went the following week and I stood outside this outside the school property because I don't want to be disrespectful.

01:14:57

You know, they asked me not to hand out the T -shirts. I put them up. So I went off school property and I had a sign said free

01:15:02

T -shirts and people pulled over and took them all. And then I went back on the school property because I don't want to be disrespectful.

01:15:08

And I went shared the gospel again. So each year at the home football games, we share the gospel. I've got some people going with me now.

01:15:15

We share the gospel with between five, excuse me, between 50 and 150 high school students, every single home game.

01:15:23

And that ministry is now expanding throughout the community. Next year, we're going to be going to at least three different football stadiums for all their home games.

01:15:31

So we're looking at it. We're playing the long game. I'm looking at that young man who I'm talking to that that group of young men, young women.

01:15:38

And that day, they may not come to Christ that day. OK, that's in the Lord's hands.

01:15:44

But they are going to hear the gospel. They're going to know there's a pastor in a church that's out here that cares about them, because when the

01:15:49

Holy Spirit does do that work in their life, they're going to have a point of reference. They've got somebody in the community that they're looking to.

01:15:56

And I think that's what it means to be a leader in the community. I don't go and say I'm a pastor. Now, many of them know it by now because I've been there for four years doing it.

01:16:04

But I believe that if you're truly a Christian reconstructionist, you are on the ground in your community, not just that way, but in a multiplicity of ways.

01:16:11

But I think that's just one way that it practically is lived out, because I can do pie in the sky theoretical, but when

01:16:18

I want to get right down to it, it's about sharing the good news of Jesus Christ with everybody

01:16:24

I can possibly share it with. And it starts there. Well, I just want to say

01:16:29

I actually fully endorse the idea of using a little bit of money at times.

01:16:35

We have a open air preaching ministry, and we also have a track ministry, and we go out and hand out tracks and talk to people.

01:16:41

A county fair we have here, it's a 10 -day huge event we have annually. We used to have a booth that we would set up, and the booth was pretty good.

01:16:48

But now, instead of having the booth, we actually go and just walk through the fair and talk to people. And one of the things that we do is we have a $10 bill, and we ask people if they can name the

01:16:57

Ten Commandments. And if they can, we give them the $10 bills. Oftentimes, even if they can't, we give them the $10 bill just for talking to us.

01:17:02

But it's a way to get the conversation started, and it's a way to start talking about God's law, and ultimately bring us to a conversation about the gospel.

01:17:09

So if people are giving you a hard time, then give me a hard time, too, because I think it's a useful tool for getting people to talk to you.

01:17:17

There's some guys online that do a good job with that, that I've seen some videos of them going out and talking to people.

01:17:22

And, you know, again, I fully support it and am encouraged by what you're doing.

01:17:30

So I want to encourage you to keep doing it. Well, Keith, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. And certainly, you let me know in the future if you want to have me back on.

01:17:39

I'd love to. It's been a blessing. I appreciate your ministry, and thanks for letting me be part of it. Absolutely, and thank you so much.

01:17:45

And I will make sure to put the God's Lawyer podcast information in the description below. So if anybody's looking for the show and wants to go and find it, you won't have to go search for it.

01:17:54

You can just look in the description below, and you will see a link directly to the show. So again, thank you, brother, for being on with me.

01:18:02

And I want to thank you guys for being a part of the show today and remind you again that this show is supported by you watching.

01:18:10

And if you're enjoying what you're watching, share it with someone. And if you haven't subscribed to the channel yet, please go ahead and do that.

01:18:17

That's a real help. And the other thing that you can do to help us out doesn't take anything at all to reach down and hit that thumbs up button.

01:18:23

If you like it, hit the thumbs up button. If you don't hit the thumbs down button twice. Thank you again for listening to your