Apologetics Session 39- Ecclesiology - Part 1

For this church, I thank you for all these brothers who've come out to just be enriched by your word. God, I pray for Ivan, who's prepared all of this content for us. God, I pray that it would be a productive session.

I pray that we would all get something out of it and that we would all be able to contribute to it. I just thank you so much for your son, who came and died on the cross for us, to save us from our sins and provide a way for us to be reconciled to you and spend eternity in heaven with you, Lord.

Just pray for this night and pray all these things in Jesus' name, amen. Amen.

Early Christian History and the Red Sea Crossing

Alright, so we're going to start with like a 12 minute video, which is actually a connector between what Matt and Drew has done to where we're going to go with the church thing. As if we planned it. As if we planned it.

Just to let you know, this is just one map of early Christian history. I'm going to be giving this to each one of you, you'll have a copy of this. This kind of gives you the scale of what we're talking about, and it's hard if we don't have a good idea of what church is originally supposed to be in scripture compared to what happened here, because this is a mess.

And it's a very interesting mess, but it's a mess nevertheless. So, with that being said, what I'm going to do is click this, and there we go. Perfect. Thank you.

Once you see this, and this, you will know that God really parted the Red Sea. You're not going to believe this, but professors from the University of Arizona have recently confirmed by using radiocarbon dating that the story of Moses splitting the Red Sea might not be far fetched after all.

But if that wasn't enough evidence for you, look what they found at the bottom of the Red Sea. Now, in case you haven't flipped in your mind why this is such a massive discovery, let me refresh your memory.

God spoke to Moses through the burning bush, and he told him to go to Egypt and tell that stubborn Pharaoh to let my people go. But Pharaoh would not listen. And so God had to send ten curses to get Pharaoh to listen to him.

Eventually, Pharaoh did obey the voice of the Lord, and he let the people of Israel go, but only for a period of time. The Bible says that Pharaoh again hardened his heart, he changed his mind, and sent the 250 ,000 Egyptians with their horse-drawn chariots after the people of Israel who were on foot.

You can imagine how scared the Israelites must have been as they found themselves cornered, and in front of them was this big body of ocean. God never leaves his people floundering. He told Moses to stretch out his hand over the Red Sea, and it would be parted.

And that is exactly what happened. Miraculously, gallons and gallons of water began to gather into these big two walls on either side, and there was a clear path for the people of Israel to cross safely to the other side.

Now, let's just hit the brakes for a minute, because I want to show you a 3D simulation of what the seabed, the topography, looks like from Nuweiba Beach in Egypt all the way to Saudi Arabia, where we're going to find Mount Sinai in a moment's time.

Can you see how it almost looks like there's a land bridge beneath the water? This land bridge, this natural formation of a 3D system beneath the water, and the evidence which suggests that it's wide enough to fit 2 million Israelites as they made the journey to the other side.

But, what they found on this land bridge is going to blow your mind. You see, the Egyptians even had the audacity to follow the Israelites into the parted sea. And the Bible actually records this. It says that their chariot wheels started to get clogged up.

Some translations say that their chariot wheels even came off. So it made it very hard for the Egyptians to drive the chariots. But that didn't stop them. They started to catch up to the Israelites. And you can imagine the Israelites, they're terrified now.

They think, we're going back to Pharaoh. We're going back to this harsh rulership. But God knew exactly what he was doing. He told Moses to raise his hands again over the sea, and Moses obeyed. As soon as Moses did this, the ocean swept all of the Egyptians, so not even one was left standing.

So, take all that stuff out, and you tell me, right now, if we scanned the seabed of the Red Sea, what would you expect to find? You would expect to find many, many chariot wheels, would you not? Well, take a look at this picture that was found on the land bridge, and you tell me, what does this coral formation look like?

It looks just like a chariot wheel. But get this, when scuba divers went down with metal detectors, they found circular patterns that were consistent to the exact shape that you would expect to find on a chariot wheel.

Now, come on, even if you're the biggest atheist on earth, you've got to admit to me, that's pretty strong evidence. Now, this is crucial. For many, many years, the popular tourist destination for Mount Sinai was in Sharm el-Sheikh in Egypt.

That's where everyone went, that's where everyone believed it was. But now, as we look at this evidence that I'm going to show you in this video, and as we listen to what the Saudi Arabians have said for many, many years, they claim that Mount Sinai is a small country in Saudi Arabia.

In fact, I want you to do something. Just listen to this American pilot describe what he was forbidden to do in the 1940s when he was in Saudi Arabia.

And we're talking about where the real Mount Sinai is located. I had no idea that someone as far back would have seen the mountain and had been told that the mountain was the holy mountain of Moses. I'm going to bring out a map.

Yes. And this map is of the area that you were flying around then. Can you show me the area that you were flying around?

Yeah, they told me it was Mount Sinai. They told me it was the mountain of Moses. I thank God that I didn't fly around it. I saw nothing.

I said, can you let me in? They both went. Did it touch your heart to have that?

It still does. Before we reach the mountain itself, let me show you some very convincing evidence that this could well be real. In Saudi Arabia, there is an archaeological site called Moses's Well. Islamic sources, which go as far back as 900 AD, claim that this is the well where Moses watered his flocks and met the daughters of Jethro.

But what about this? In the Bible, we read about Moses and the Israelites finding this beautiful desert oasis called Elam. At Elam, there was many springs of water and 70 palm trees. So now, cast your eyes onto this collection of palm trees, which is found reasonably close to the supposed Mount Sinai.

And what is it the locals for many years have called this area? They also have called it Elam. But here's some more compelling evidence for you. We know that Moses, after writing down God's laws in the Book of the Covenant, set up an altar for burnt sacrifices.

Well, here is an ancient altar made of uncut stones. Do you know what they found? The remains of many animals. We also know that because the Israelites were disobedient, 3 ,000 people were struck down.

And some actually believe that these gravestones right here could be the gravestones of those who worshipped the golden calf. If you look here, you can see what appears to be mortars that are dotted all the way around Mount Sinai.

And it's been speculated, could these be the mortars that were used to grind the manna every single day? And just here, inside the archaeological area, we see carvings of the rock of what is quite clearly calf idol worship.

But not only has idol worship been recorded, there's also been found ancient Hebrew menorahs found on the rocks around Sinai, which again is more possible evidence that the Israelites were here. And this is, in fact, the real Mount Sinai.

But here's what's kind of scary. These menorahs have since been raked either way, and we don't know the reason why people are trying to get rid of the evidence. But for me personally, this is what I'm most excited about.

Josephus, the Jewish historian, said that the rock of Horeb was so big that it couldn't be moved. And this split rock right here is estimated to be between 40 and 60 feet high. And inside the rock, it's smooth with grooves that clearly show some kind of water erosion, which is kind of strange to find in the middle of the desert in Saudi Arabia.

But most interesting of all, this rock is found at the foot of the Mount Sinai that we're about to look at in a moment's time. But wait a second, Joe. You haven't even told us what the rock of Horeb is yet.

Well, when the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they began to get very thirsty. And so they started to complain to Moses. Moses, you've led us out into this wilderness for us to die of thirst.

And Moses took hold of this pot, and he cried out, What do you want me to do with this people? This was the Lord's response. Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it that the people may drink.

So Moses obeyed God and struck the rock, and out of it flowed abundant water. And the people drank and were satisfied. Now, everyone listen to me, because when I saw this for the first time, I could not believe my eyes.

You see, thousands of years ago in the wilderness, thousands of years ago, when we look at the rock of Horeb, God was demonstrating a picture of the cross. How do I know that? Because the apostle Paul says, That rock was Christ.

You see, when Moses, an imperfect human being, struck the rock, it was a picture of when Christ would be struck by imperfect human beings. There on the cross, the Lord Jesus Christ was smitten, was beaten, was struck by Satan.

There Christ's body was broken. He had nails through his hands and his feet. He had a crown of thorns smashed into his skull. His beard was plucked out. There the Lord Jesus Christ bled and died so that we could be forgiven.

And just like that rock was split in two and water flowed out of it, abundant water, when the Lord Jesus Christ's body was broken, when he offered himself as a sacrifice, also out of his life flows abundant living water.

And just like the water of Horeb was free, so this water is free. The waters, the rivers of forgiveness that flow out of Christ's life are totally free. And I'm asking you today, are you thirsty? If you are, come to the Lord Jesus Christ and drink of his water.

Because I'll tell you something, Jesus Christ is the rock of our salvation. The Bible also calls Jesus the cornerstone. And what was the cornerstone? It was the rock that builders built everything around it.

It was the foundation, it was the foundation rock. And I want to ask you, are you building your life on the Lord Jesus Christ? Or are you building your life on other things? I remember when I was a little boy learning about Moses in Sunday school.

I used to read this story and I used to think, it sounds a little bit harsh that Moses was not allowed to enter into the promised land. Why was that? Let me tell you why. In Numbers 20, Moses finds himself in a very similar situation.

Again, the people are complaining. Again, the people are thirsty. Again, they're saying, we will die unless you give us something to drink, Moses. So again, Moses approaches the Lord and says, what should I do with this people?

So God says to Moses, I want you to stand in front of another rock, but this time I want you to speak to the rock. And when you speak, water will flow out of it. So Moses stood in front of the rock, but what did he do?

He struck the rock, just like he did at Horeb. Now, why was that a serious thing to do? See, the Lord Jesus Christ only needed to be struck once. He only needed to be crucified once. Before, there was many sacrifices.

Before, there was many offerings that the people had to do as a way of atoning for their sins. But when Christ died on that cross, it was sufficient. It was a once for all act. And never again did Christ have to be pinned to that cross because forgiveness can be found through that one act.

What Jesus did was enough. And really, that is why God had to discipline Moses so harshly. Because he did not want to send out a confusing message to all the myriads of people who would read the Bible years later.

And there is one more reason why Moses wasn't allowed into the promised land. You see, Moses represents the law. And the law will not get you into the promised land. The law will not get you into heaven.

No, you need a Joshua. What does the word Joshua mean in Hebrew? It means Yeshua. And what does Yeshua mean in Greek? Jesus. You need a savior to leave the promised land. It is only Christ who can take the people to heaven.

And that is why Joshua was the one who led the people into the promised land. And Moses was not allowed to enter. But let's just make something clear right now. Moses will be in heaven. In fact, we know that Moses is with Christ right now.

Because on the Mount of Transfiguration, the Lord Jesus Christ turned up with Moses and Elijah. Okay, you've waited long enough. Here is what I believe is the real Mount Sinai. The Bible says, Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire.

Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked greatly. And that, my friends, is why I believe this is the real Mount Sinai. You can see it's got blackened peaks, as if it's been scorched by fire.

And even geologists are really perplexed at why it's only black on the outside, and on the inside it's completely normal, like normal rock. As if it's been Nelson. As if it's been Nelson. How incredible is this?

You can notice a sort of pulpit, where you can imagine that Moses would address the people and use this natural amphitheater. And if you want to know all about the Ten Commandments and what they mean for us today, you need to see this video right now.

Once you see this...

Apologetics, Scripture, and the Meaning of Church

I wanted to play this because it has implications for us in our apologetics. And it is proof for us that God is real. God is not dead. God has never left. God's never going to leave. And that we're now beginning to see proof of his existence and what he did.

And it's a comfort for us to know that when we're reading Scripture, there's a confirmation there and a validation that there's truth. I think it's an incredible honor to go ahead and be in his presence, knowing that these are the things he did before us to teach us what's going to happen today.

Which brings us to this connector from just everything else that we talked about in apologetics of really what the Church is and what it is really meant to be. Like I mentioned before, this is for next week and we can talk about various different parts of that.

But this is going to be a takeaway for you to look at. But what is Church? What do you think Church is? So I'll give you the Greek word, the translated Church in the New Testament is Ecclesia. The literal translation of Ecclesia would be a call-out assembly.

Not too different from what happened in the Old Testament there. Etymologically, speaking the word Church means house of the Lord. The modern word Church is a direct descendant of Old English, Circae or Circa.

First recorded use of Old English word is from the 13th century and it could refer to either the body of Christian believers or to a place where they gather. But it goes back to really, really, what is Church?

Can someone please tell me, do you think Church is?

Dave, can you tell me what Church is? Assembly of brothers that believe that Christ died for our sins. Born-again believers. Born-again believers. What else?

It's okay. This is meant to be interactive. I mean, what do you think Church is? We go to it. At least 50 times a year. We go to a Sunday service. There's a reason why we go. Ricky, what do you think Church is?

A place where people get together to praise God.

A place for us to assemble and praise God. Well, it's obviously a call-out assembly, but it's important to know that the Scripture tells us that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. So Church isn't a building, and I think we reflect on that so often.

And we know from doing the first several hundred years, they've met at homes. So it was the believers coming together. And it is to create the body of Christ. And more so than that, it's literally the bride of Christ.

Right. And we'll get into that. It's funny. Is it a building? Is it a group? Is it faith? Is it people? Is it worship? Is it a coffee bar, Matt?

Absolutely. It is a coffee bar. It's a fellowship. What's that? It's a fellowship. It is a fellowship. It is a fellowship. We go to this place where the Church is the body of Christ, which is the head.

But the Church has been changing, and what we see now as thinking what the Church is, is not really a church anymore. It's more of a consumer item. It's more of something that there was a funny video that I saw, a satire of a young couple trying to find a church, and they had almost like a real estate agent taking them to different churches, and then they were comparing all the different.

What do you like? Yeah, what do you like? What do you like? And it's a sad commentary about where church is right now because we've kind of lost the genesis of what church was meant to be to what the consumer-driven church is all about and what we did to megachurches and everything.

But the Church is the body of Christ, the head. It's formulated like this, where Jesus Christ is the overseer, and to Rod's point, the Holy Spirit is our protector within the Church itself. The Bible is the guideline.

So if you're thinking of a sort of a hierarchy or an organizational chart, that's what happened. What drives all churches is the statement of belief and the doctrines of what we stand for. There's a pastor and elders usually handling spiritual leadership, deacons and servants that are handling the physical leaderships.

And this also expands to various different things, but group ministries, we're used to that, and then the area ministries there. Nowhere is there anything about bands or anything like that. But that's usually the commonality of there.

How we moved away from that, it's pretty telling. Okay? For just as the body is one and many members are all the members of the body, though many are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one spirit, Rod, for in one spirit we are all baptized into one body, Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, and all we've made to drink of one spirit, for the body does not consist of one member.

So when we're looking at this, we're looking at a combination of people where the temple in the Old Testament was almost like a brick and mortar over there, and it looked like this, where the spirit of our Lord was over the temple, and it turned into this.

So where the spirit of God who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, and just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by the same spirit living within you.

So the church is a combination of believers that come in there.

Does that make sense to everybody? Go ahead. Yeah, I've got a good definition from 1 Peter 2, verse 9. But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, his own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of him who called you out of darkness and into his marvelous light.

That's wonderful.

The church is the bride of Christ. And when we look at the bride of Christ, we also have to look at what God did in Genesis, wherein he created man and woman to be together, not having man to be alone.

Our God is a God of one relationship. God always wants to have this relationship with his people. So the metaphor of that is to have the bride there, of having continued relationship of those, and I'll use the word elect in that.

We can talk about that later. But the church is the bride of Christ. Here on earth and in glory. And in glory, absolutely. For no one ever hated his own flesh but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.

Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother, hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is profound, but I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church, one flesh.

However, let each of you love his wife as himself and let the wife see that she respects her husband. So, digging deeper into this text, we're looking at what God wants from his people. They are as being one flesh with him.

And that's continuing through here, as John was saying, and in heaven. Okay. The church is a family or a household of God. And it says, For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For we did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but we have received the spirit of adoption as sons.

By whom we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit, for we are children of God. And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Very powerful text here of just claiming what it is to be adopted into Christ's kingdom. And the church is a temple of God. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God?

You are not of your own, for you were bought with a price, so glorify God in your body. So imagine now that we have the Holy Spirit within a church body, not here in the brick and mortar, but a gathering of believers coming together.

The Holy Spirit is on top of this and working through us on this there. Within our own selves, within the temple there, we have said. It's a miracle. It's a glorious miracle that this has happened to us.

And when we look at it from this perspective, there needs to be a certain reverence that happens when you have a body of believers, brothers and sisters in Christ, the community, the spiritual community coming together, of understanding who our Father is within that.

And we've lost that. We've lost that piece of reverence, and we need to bring that back. I'm not saying here, but in this in general, with so many other outside influences there. The church is the flock of God.

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flocking in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. And the church is the pillar and the support of truth.

And this is a major catastrophe right now happening in Christendom, where truth is just what you think it is and not scriptural truth that's happening there. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught so that he may be able to give instructions in sound doctrine, and this is really important for us in apologetics, also to rebuke those who contradict it.

And it is really up to us to stand up for what God's word talks about. We don't have to be nasty about it, but we have to be able to defend it. We have to be able to communicate it in love, but hold firm to what God is telling us.

Does that make sense for everybody? Okay. The church is the kingdom of God. When you start thinking about that, the kingdom of God, that we're in here every Sunday, we're going there, it can be overwhelming to think of it that way.

We kind of can be very flippant about that. Are you supposed to be advancing while you do this, or are we still in this one? Because you're hitting your button, I thought. You're moving slides. Oh, wow.

Is it going? Oh, it's not going. We're still defending it. Oh. You're still defending it? No, the church is still. Okay. I'm sorry, guys. That was a test, Mike. You passed. I'm glad someone said something to me about that.

Oh, boy. There we go. The church is the kingdom of God, and to Drew's point. Okay, we're back on. It says, and he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him.

He fills all in all, Ephesians 1, 22, and 23. So, for some reason. And the church is a community of all true believers of all time. True believers. True believers. And please weigh in as I'm going through this, because, like I said, the goal for today is to get the baseline there so when we look at church history next week.

Well, I guess I'd try to qualify what Grudem is saying. I don't know what the context was for that, but the Old Testament believers, who were believers, obviously, in the Lord for all time, wouldn't be part of the church.

So I'm not sure what he's exactly saying there.

I think what he's saying is all true believers in Christ for all time. And since you're talking about Old Testament, he wouldn't be a believer in Christ, right? He qualified it by saying the church. So that's obviously.

But he's defining the church. Right.

Didn't it actually start in Acts 2?

They didn't believe that the Messiah was going to come. No, they did believe.

They just weren't there yet. Right. They've been Germanized since they became Christians on credit.

Wait till they get the bill. Ivan, is he dispensational or is he reformed? We're not going to go there yet, because that's a question I want to, towards the end of this, I want to talk about that. I think he's dispensationalist.

But that being said, it's a bigger question towards the end of this. The church is the elect. So the church is the elect. Those are the ones that have been chosen. They're outside of what we do in terms of our mission, having our doors open, showing the world our love, Christ's love through there.

But it is for the elect. And that's very, very important to understand. It's not a mall. It's not an open-door retail store. It's not any of that. The church was made for people in Christ. Does that make sense to everybody?

Because that's really a hard one for people to swallow. I often hear the church is a hospital for people. And they kind of make these errant suggestions there. But the original premise of this thing, and this has a lot of implications there.

One, not too far away from John 3 .16. And what does John 3 .16 actually mean? So you have to think about who Jesus died for and what the church is for and what's going on there. And people struggle with this.

They really, really do to try to get there because of just their whole paradigm thinking of what church is meant to be. Does that make sense to you? Not again. No, there you go. Okay, good. So, go therefore and make disciples.

This is our mandate of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you to the end of the age.

This is it. Not any more complicated than that. That's what the church, that's what we're supposed to be doing. Okay. It's there. And finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration. Comfort one another.

Agree with one another. Live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you. That's the underpinnings of what our mandate is supposed to be. This is the emotional tie that we have for each other.

And churches struggle with this part very much so. Especially if you're making it into a product. So, what does a church do? And what runs a church? So, can we talk about what does a church do? What do we do?

You secluded the mandate. Right. But in general, what do you think a church does? What do you feel?

What do you think a church does? I was thinking of something that John MacArthur said. So, kind of breaking it down. So, there's fellowship. There's worship. And there's studying. And then the fourth thing is evangelism.

But what he said was, you know, fellowship, we will fellowship perfectly in heaven. We will know as we are known perfectly in heaven. And we will worship perfectly in heaven. But the one thing we won't do in heaven is evangelize the lost because they won't be there.

So, that is our mandate.

Right, right, right. Anybody else? I think 1 Corinthians 4 where it says we're ministers of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. So, as ministers, you bring forth the truth. You make that freely open.

And then as stewards, you run the show and you protect the mysteries, for example. So, you have to know the mysteries and not let it get diluted like you were talking about. So, you have to be a bulwark.

You have to stand against the tide.

Good point. When heresies arose, they were actively opposed. Right.

Yeah. Many people point to Acts 241 .2. Yeah. Which is so that those who had received his word, so the word of God has to be paramount, were baptized. Paramount, yeah. And then they were added that day 3 ,000 souls.

And they were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching, the fellowship, the breaking of bread, and the prayer.

So, that's the template. I was going to say that it's a place for sanctification between our justification and our glorification. The church is guiding us through our sanctification. Right. Working out your salvation.

Say again? Working out your salvation. Yeah. And here, in a lot of ways, it's iron against iron. We're sharpening ourselves as much as we can. And the church should also be doing that. It's lifting us up.

The stronger we are and the bolder we are in Christ, the better we are to go ahead and carry out his mandate. But, sanctification is key. It's the longest period of our lives where we slowly grow there.

We can't automatically be there. So, the church in itself is a nurturing place for that. And accountability, too. Yes. Yes, accountability. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, who runs the church? In the beginning there, I had the pastor and everything.

But, who do you think runs the church? The Holy Spirit.

And who else? Jesus Christ is the head of the church.

So, in all those cases, there's a certain level of reverence that's happening there that we need to do. And I had a talk not too long ago with a friend of mine about this. And I don't know if he's a believer or not.

He's definitely Catholic. But, he said that Catholics do a better job in reverence than what he sees in Christians in the church. And he was talking about the brick and mortar structure when you walk in and how ornate it is.

And that there's all these different things there. And I tried to explain to him, well, that's just... Presbyterians do a pretty good job.

How did he define reverence?

Just like you're in awe in the place that you're there. In his eyes, it was like you're in awe in the presence of the God. Like you come into a church.

But it's very distorted because... It's vague. Yeah. And I think there's a real misnomer there on a lot of Havoc's part. Because it's like there's reverence in awe when you're in the building. But when you're outside the building, there's a whole different persona.

Oh, absolutely. Where is the reverence in awe when you're not in the building? Correct.

I'll make a point on the Catholicism, if I may, on that. Who are they revering? Are they revering Mary, the saint, the priest? Who knows what they're revering. By the time it gets to Jesus, it's so watered down.

Oh, yeah. Because they don't have a direct connection.

Absolutely. It's like a spiritual stew they're trying to do. They're throwing everything into the stew thing. Yeah, go ahead.

I think a good example of this, to answer this question here, is the fact that how reverent Martin Luther was when he became priest. Until he realized the truth, and the truth set him free. And what the reverent church was doing with the, quote, unquote, us believers, killing us, burning us.

So you can have all the reverence in the world without having Christ.

Yeah, but Muslims are very reverential. Yes, they were. And it's not necessarily a building either, because Jesus is with us wherever two or more are gathered, as it says in the Bible. So it's not necessarily a building itself.

There's a reason why Cornerstone is growing. There's a reason why. And Jeff is my brother. I would like to say, oh, yeah, it's all Jeff. No, the Holy Spirit is over this ministry. And the truth is coming out.

And the people who are coming there are looking for truth and for God and for a fellowship and a community and a family that's outside there. And we're all experiencing some shape, way, and form that being a believer in Christ cuts ties with a lot of things, family particularly, even church family that we see there.

And people have struggled in their other areas because of that. And that's how they're finding themselves here. Sure. So to that point, the Holy Spirit is working through all that. Chad, do you want to say something?

No. Okay. I'll take it. Okay. So Pastor Elder, they've been around for a while, the deacons, parishioners. They pretty much help drive what is happening there through the Holy Spirit. And we talk about what is the definition of a pastor within the church because the thinking is it's almost like a band wave, it's almost like a pyramid scheme where you have a pastor and then everything flows down.