"Do People Still Believe In Hell?" (Final Session of The Faith Matters Discussion Group 8/10/2022)

The Final Faith Matters Discussion Group and the Question of Hell

All right, let's get started. This is the final faith matters discussion group. So after tonight, we're gonna take a break and then get into something else in a few weeks. But if you would turn to Revelation chapter one.

Revelation chapter one. And let's pray before we get into our study. Heavenly father, we thank you so much for bringing us all out tonight. I pray this would be a beneficial time in your word. And I just ask that you would bless each heart, teach us through your word and through your Holy spirit.

I pray it's in Jesus name, amen. Okay, so the article that we're gonna be looking at tonight is do people still believe in hell? I mean, can you believe this guy writing an article like this in the year 2022?

So obviously I wrote it. It was in the paper a couple of weeks ago. Do people still believe in hell? Well, the short answer is yes and no. Some people do and some people don't. And because many do not, in my opinion, this is one of the reasons why Christianity is supposedly in decline.

I think it is in the Western world. Partially again, in my opinion, because churches a long time ago have stopped preaching on the subject of hell. And as the result, fewer people believe in hell. And as the result of that, there's nothing to be saved from anymore.

So the gospel and Christianity, if there is no hell, really it's unnecessary. So it stands to reason that if people believe there was a hell and they believe that people were going there, then they would do anything in their power to avoid that.

Right? Because this is the worst possible scenario, worst possible outcome. So if you could avoid it, you would make sure to avoid it. But if you don't believe in it, then hey, who cares? Stay home, watch Netflix, whatever.

I think that's the situation that we're in. So people either, number one, don't believe in hell or number two, they just presume the grace of God that, well, if there is such a place, God would never send me there because I'm such a good person.

So he would never do that. I think that's the mindset. So let me just say upfront, I don't think this comes as a surprise to most of you, but yes, I still believe that hell is a real place because as a Christian, I believe what Christ believed.

Right?

As Christians, we believe what Christ taught and Jesus Christ is the preeminent teacher on the subject of hell in the Bible. Nobody preached more about hell than Jesus himself. So you're in Revelation chapter one and you think of Jesus's words being in the gospels.

That's true. But remember the book of Revelation is called, what's the full name of Revelation?

The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Right.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ and he's giving it through his angel to the apostle John. So even though it's John writing this down, these are the words revealed by Christ himself. We see that in chapter one, verse one, the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him to show his servants things which must shortly take place.

And he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant, John. Now turn to chapter 20. I just wanna lay that foundation that this is the revelation of Jesus Christ. Because sometimes you come across people who say, oh, well, yeah, I know the Bible says that, but that's just the apostle Paul.

We don't need to listen to him. Or, well, yeah, that's in the Bible, but that's just John. I mean, I don't even have time to get into the problems of those statements. But these are the words of, it's the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Okay, look at Revelation 20, verses 11 through 15. Then I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away, and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life.

And the dead were judged according to their works by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one according to his works.

Then death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. So again, this is Jesus revealing the truth about the final judgment to his apostle John.

So this is what happens to those who reject Christ and reject the gospel of Christ. And this is very, obviously, this is very bad news for them. But of course, gospel means good news. So the good news that Jesus died and rose again, he offers salvation from this horrific place called hell.

So that's the topic we're gonna be looking at, and we're gonna read through the article. And I do feel a little funny reading my own article. I had no intentions of doing this, but I didn't wanna just pick any faith matters and nitpick.

I really don't wanna do that. So I ran out of faith matters articles. So, and I thought this is an important subject. And like I said, a lot of churches don't preach on it. So I think every once in a while, we need to kind of cover this subject.

But as far as the gospel goes, this is the church's mission. If we really believe that the people of this world are lost, then we're gonna wanna see this mission carried out to disciple the nations, baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and to teach them all that Christ commanded.

That's the great commission. That's why we're here. And that's why I wrote the article. Any questions so far?

All right.

All right.

Fairness, the Local Paper, and the End Result of Sin

I resisted just one last statement before I start reading. I really resisted writing this article for a long time because I'll just, everybody knows this is true, but the local newspaper is not fair towards Bible-believing Christians.

The paper is not fair towards conservatives. So the last time I sent in an article, they refused to print it. There was several years ago when the whole LGBT thing really started cranking up. There were adult teachers and administrators standing at the front door of the high school that my child was at.

And they were signing children up as young as 12 to agree to become gay allies. And just, I thought it was completely inappropriate for adults to be talking about sex in general, never mind homosexuality.

So I wrote in an article to the paper. Today, nobody would be surprised at that. But back then, it hadn't really gotten out. So I wrote in an article explaining that. And you say, what does that have to do with hell?

That's the end result. Hell is the end result of that lifestyle and those who believe in it and support it. And if we love them, we should be able to tell them that and warn them. But anyways, I wrote in this article to the paper telling them what was happening.

And the, I don't know if he was the editor, a man high up at the paper, he called me and he was, I mean, he was just yelling at me, calling me a liar, saying, that isn't happening, you're making it up.

And I said, I dare you, call the school, call the superintendent, email the principal, I dare you. And they sort of backed off. And even this article, they printed it, it was accurate, but they didn't print, it accidentally didn't get printed on the online edition of the paper.

So all their readers, most readers, I think probably do read online these days. Well, they didn't see it because just so happens, whoops, we forgot Pastor Grant's article. So that's the kind of treatment you get from the recorder.

So that's why I resisted. But Lenny, Lenny is a faithful believer. And he says, we need evangelicals writing into the paper to get the other side across. And I finally said, okay, so, all right. Yes, Marcus.

Well, because, and before you read yours, you made comment of an issue that I'd like to render my opinion on.

Sure.

And that is the issue of fairness, because you will hear that constantly, and they will take it to whatever level they want to. And you know where it ends up? It's not fair that God had to sacrifice his son.

It's not fair that he had to give his life and suffer torture and death for us. That's not fair. And that's just the way it is. We're a fallen world.

Yeah, and if God were simply operating based on fairness or what's just, there would really be no hope for any of us. But the gospel is about God's grace. So ultimately, even though we're talking about hell, really we're getting to the gospel and the message of God's grace.

So, this was the beginning of the article. It says, if you want to follow along, because there is so much injustice in the world, many, if not most people who believe in an afterlife do get the sense that there must be some sort of system of rewards and punishments in the life to come.

Historically, the monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have all had some concept of hell. And of course, we've all heard of the fire and brimstone preachers of the past, men like Jonathan Edwards, who preached one of the most famous sermons of all time, sinners in the hands of an angry God.

And back then it was understood man was bad and God was mad. We've all heard of the fire and brimstone preachers of yesteryear, right? And Jonathan Edwards preached, what? 20 miles away in Northampton.

I think that sermon, sinners in the hands of an angry God, might've been preached in Enfield, Connecticut. But this stuff happened locally anyways. One comment on the fairness. I want to be fair to you.

If there's something that you're not sure about in this article, something maybe you even disagree with, I'm gonna be fair to you. I will let you express that and give your viewpoint.

And I'll let people speak when it's not my turn.

They may try to censor me. I'm not gonna censor you, okay?

Yes.

Well, let's start. I'd just like to stop here where it says man was bad, true, total depravity, and God was mad, wrong. I am, yes, I mean, you talk about the good news and the bad news. The bad news is that we are sinners.

We are sinful. The good news is that God loves sinners, right? So it's not, you know, God was mad.

Well, I mean, that was the general feeling in the preaching hellfire and brimstone, you're bad and God is angry. Although there is a verse in scripture, the reference isn't coming to mind, or it says God is angry with the wicked every day.

Does anyone know what reference that is? But yeah, at the same time, God is gracious every day. God is merciful every day. God so loves the people of this world every day. So it's just a matter of not focusing on just one side of the story.

I mean, both are true.

Yes.

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Right.

So, you know, you can look at things from two different sides often in scripture, and that's what makes scripture so deep and wonderful, and we won't get to the bottom.

Yeah, yeah, people have the idea that Jonathan Edwards and preachers almost delighted in the fact that people are going to hell. And I don't know, I don't think that's true, but if it was, obviously that would be wrong.

And like you said, God takes no delight.

In the death of the wicked.

So we need to bring balance to the conversation.

So One more?

One more.

And then you're off.

He's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Okay.

All right, so my goal in writing the article is the same goal I have in preaching, because I know that in any audience, because maybe not here tonight, but people later online, there's always going to be believers and unbelievers listening to whatever it is you're doing.

So I'm trying to, on the one hand, encourage the saints, but I would love to see somebody actually converted by this. So this is why I started out the way that I did. I wanted to gain an audience with unbelievers.

Yet at the same time, I know when they see the word hell, a lot of people are going to tune you out from the start. So that's why I started with this whole idea of injustice. That's kind of a buzz term in our society.

You know, justice, social justice. And I know a lot of the churches we've been reviewing, since they don't preach the gospel, that's really all they have left is social justice. So I brought up injustice, and I also brought up other religions, you know, Judaism and Islam, as a way to kind of keep their attention to maybe they'll read past the first paragraph.

Because again, you see the word hell, some people are just going to automatically react to that. And I've read some articles after a few sentences, I'm like, okay, I see where this is going, and then I don't read the rest of it, so.

But you really can't control that. But that's why I started the way that I did. So back then it was understood, man was bad and God was mad. That's the way that era has been characterized. Right or wrong, that's the way people have described it.

Those days seem to be over, all right? I think that's true, more or less, those days are over. People don't think that way anymore. If there is one thing modern churches and ministers agree on, and I do agree with this, it's the statement in 1 John chapter four, verse eight, that God is love.

I don't think there's a single person in a church anywhere across the country that would take issue with that statement, God is love. Nor should they take issue with it. Now I say those days seem to be over, but that doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good thing.

If the emphasis was on God's wrath back then, the answer isn't to swing the pendulum all the way to the other side and now it's only about love. Because I fear that's where a lot of ministries are. It's just love, love, love, love all the time.

The solution would be to preach what we say, the whole counsel of God. So if you go through a book, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, you're gonna touch on all sorts of things. We don't wanna just preach one side of the story, amen?

Okay, but I think that's where a lot of ministries are. They give one side. We wanna be balanced because the scripture is balanced. Where are you, Revelation? Is that where you're at? Okay, turn to John chapter three.

Some of you know where I'm going with this, but a lot of you have the verse memorized. John chapter three, verse 16, the most popular verse in all of the Bible on the love of God. Well, hey, let's say it together.

Just to prove that most of us know it. And if you don't, that's okay. For God so loved the world,.

That he gave his only begotten son,.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3, 16. How many people know John 3, 36? I know you, and I knew that hand was coming up. God bless you, I see that hand.

God bless you too, Pastor.

John 3, 36, if you wanna look at it. Because John 3, 16 is true and it's important and it needs to be preached, but John 3, 36 is also true. He that believeth on the son hath everlasting life. And he that believeth not the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

So both are true.

Yes.

And I like the fact that because God loves us, he would do anything to save us. But we need to remember too, that he poured out his wrath on his own son, because his wrath has to be poured out on sin.

Now the process whereby sin in the Old Testament was somehow placed on this lamb, I don't understand it. This process where our sins, as the ones we did today, were placed on Christ on that day, in that place, I don't understand that either, but I believe it.

And God's wrath was poured out on him. So if he didn't spare his son because he loved us so much, he certainly is not gonna spare anyone that rejects this free gift of just simply believing.

Well, this is the greatest thing about the Christian gospel that Jesus died to satisfy the wrath of God. He took all of that wrath on the cross for us so that all of our sin, past, present, and future, it's all wiped clean.

There's a lot of religions where you have to keep doing works and the scale has to balance out in the end, and you never really know how that's gonna turn out. There's other religions where you have to go and get absolution every week, and you need to get re-forgiven every Sunday or whatever.

But the gospel is full forgiveness for all time, again, all sin, past, present, and future. So far as the East is from the West, the scripture says, so has he removed our transgressions from us. There's nothing better than that.

Okay, so I said some take it even further. So let me just back up. I wrote John, or yeah, 1 John 4, 8, God is love. That's what everybody agrees on. Some take it even further. I said, I drove by one church and the sign out front said, God is love, period, in all capital letters.

Now what's that saying? It's saying there is no wrath of God, that there is no judgment. You got nothing to worry about. God is only love. I preached a two-part series at the Agape Moldovan Church on that subject.

And that's the message today. That's what people want to hear, that God is only love. But you have to really cut out 2 3rds of the Bible to really kind of prop up that message. And obviously that isn't the message of scripture if you're ignoring such large sections.

Okay, so God is love, period. I wrote, okay, but whatever one's view is, we should be able to admit that this new idea that God no longer has anger or wrath is not in line with traditional Christianity.

You remember that first faith matters we looked at? The guy said, I reject traditional Christianity. He would have recognized that, yeah, this new idea, it isn't in line with Orthodox Christianity. And I reject Orthodox Christianity.

So I think we would all agree with that. And I wrote, nor is it in line with the life and ministry of Jesus. So the idea that God has no wrath, it's not in line with the ministry of Christ. And I quoted John 2, verses 13 through 15.

I'll just read that for you. Now, the Passover of the Jews was at hand and Jesus went up to Jerusalem and he found in the temple, those who sold oxen and sheep and doves and the money changers doing business.

And when he, that is Jesus, had made a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple. This is kind of a, violent is the right word to use, but it's an aggressive action. It's a bold action. So he made a whip of cords.

He drove them all out of the temple with the sheep and the oxen and poured out the changers money. And he overturned, I mean, he flipped over the tables. I wrote, the fact is Jesus expressed what we would call a righteous indignation.

And he recognized how people were corrupting the faith in order to line their own pockets. And Jesus was always keenly aware of how people wanted to use him to further their political agenda. This was the whole concept people had of the Messiah, that he would come take the throne, drive out the Romans and restore Israel to a position of political dominance in the Middle East.

That's what all the people wanted. And there's one point in John chapter six where they were ready to take Jesus by force and make him king. And he says he withdrew himself from them. So I wrote, what does all this have to do with hell?

Well, Jesus called the religious and political leaders of his day. What did he call them? There's a few things he called them, snakes.

What else?

Whited sepulchers.

Whited sepulchers, whitewashed tombs, called them hypocrites, right? And then he says to them in Matthew 23, 33, he's saying this to the pastors, the priests, the religious and political leaders. He says, how can you escape the condemnation of what?

Of hell. So if, but if you read liberal scholars these days, they will actually tell you that Matthew chapter 23, Jesus never really said those words.

Please don't call them scholars.

Yeah, yeah. What should I call? I know we've had this conversation before. What should I call them?

Knuckleheads.

Knuckleheads, okay. Right, well, those people, they say that Jesus never said these words. They claim that they were added later on. Remember one article, she believed that there were all these editors kind of adding things to the Bible, changing the Bible.

And they say that because the argument that they make is that, well, the Jesus we know is all about love and he accepts everybody. I had somebody say that to me a few weeks ago, that, well, Jesus accepted everybody.

You know, and that's true to a degree. I mean, he ate with tax collectors and sinners. At one point he said to the religious leaders, you know, tax collectors and prostitutes will enter the kingdom before you.

So he was willing to accept pretty much anybody. But the people who did not believe in him or were opposing him, he didn't accept the Pharisees, did he? So it's true in one sense, but not really. But they say, yeah, the Jesus we know is all about love.

And that's just inconsistent with the Jesus over here. So obviously Jesus never said that. What's the problem with that argument? This is where you come in. And this is something that you can hopefully spot the error.

If somebody opens Matthew 23, whitewashed tombs, snakes, Jesus never said that because it's not in line with his words over here.

They're not telling the truth because they're afraid people won't follow.

Yeah, that's a good insight. Because I think a lot of those churches, if they did talk about something like we're talking about tonight, it'd clear the place out. People would be angry. See, here at Morris Corner Church, you're used to Bible preaching.

So you might not agree with everything that I say, and that's fine, because I have my opinions and you have yours. But you know, if it's in the Bible, hey, we accept the teachings of the Bible. So if it's in the Bible, sometimes we feel convicted and all that.

But there's some places, yeah, all you have to do is read and preach some things that are in the Bible and watch out. But it's because they're never taught this. So they're just completely not used to it.

Anything else on that?

Yes, Marcus.

Well, I guess the same way that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, the more times they hear the truth, the more likely they will be to believe it. But they've heard nothing but lies from infancy, from their parents, from their school teachers, from billboards, from everywhere.

Yeah, and let me just say about people that attend these churches, I'm not mad at them. I mean, honestly, the reason I'm doing this is to reach some of them. This is what you were taught. You only know what you're taught.

But it's the pastors that went to school, presumably have read the Bible, that are telling people the Bible's not accurate and not true. They're the ones I oppose. You know, the clergy that are teaching falsely.

But the people in the pews, you know, some of them honestly don't know any better. We need to remember that. And we do want to be kind and gentle if we do have those opportunities to talk with them. All right, anything else before we move on?

Okay.

Christ Taught Hell, the Wrath of God, and the Great Commission

But at the end of the day, you know, we believe in the subject of hell for one simple reason. Continuing in the article, a Christian is a person who follows the teachings of,.

Who? Christ.

Therefore, historically, Christianity has taught the existence of hell for one simple reason, because Christ taught it. And then I quote Jesus in Mark 9, 47 and 48. Jesus said, if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, for it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes be cast into hell or into hell fire, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

I think you can argue the fact that Jesus, or you can't argue the fact, Jesus is the one who coined the term hellfire. That didn't come from some preacher from 200 years ago. That came from Jesus himself.

All right.

You've heard this statement. People talk about Jesus preached more about hell than he did about heaven. Who's heard that? Who's actually gone through and checked it out.

And made sure?

I've never, one of these days, I said, I'm gonna go through every reference.

And make sure that's true.

It's one of those things that gets repeated so often. Well, it has to be true. But even if it's not, Jesus preached a lot about hell. Well, I continued, thankfully, Jesus also taught about heaven and salvation through faith in the gospel.

The clearest expression of God's love, according to scripture, is that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Who knows the reference? Romans 5, 8.

No fair.

So Jesus, here's the point, Jesus satisfied, or what I wrote is, Jesus absorbed the wrath of God. God does have wrath, but on the cross, Jesus took it for us. So when we talk about hell, this is what Jesus did for us.

He absorbed the wrath of God for us. So the issue now is how we respond to that. To the humble believer, God is a compassionate, heavenly father. And I pray that's how all of you see God, as a compassionate, merciful, heavenly father.

But to the stiff-necked rebel, God is a consuming fire. Going through the book of Numbers, Israel in the wilderness, what was the thing that Moses or the Lord said about some of them? He said, they're stiff-necked.

And there was one judgment after another,.

After another.

So really, how you see God, and how God sees you, all depends on how you see Christ on the cross. So if we believe we have the right to be called children of God, 1 John 1, verses 11 and 12, but to the one who rebels and just rejects the Lord, rejects the gospel, God is very different.

So this is where we make the appeal to anyone who will listen, believe in Jesus, be saved by faith alone. The next step, be baptized, join his church, and then let's all work together to help fulfill the great commission and bring this message of hope and salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.

That's what the local church is all about. And as Jesus said, this is the promise, if we will do that, Matthew 28, verse 20, he says, and lo, I'm with you always, even to the end of the age.