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CHARLES WARE, author of “ONE RACE, ONE BLOOD: A Biblical Answer to RACISM”
Cohosted today by Charlie Liebert of SixDayCreation.com
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arns in your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all.
Happy Thursday on this 29th day of December 2016 and Before I even introduce my guests for today who hasn't called in yet. He may not be my guest today after all. But before I introduce him and the topic and my co-host who's in studio with me Charlie Liebert of six-day creation Comm I want to make a couple of announcements.
I want to remind you that the iron sharpens iron pastors luncheon is Now just a couple of weeks away. It is Thursday January 12th 11 a .m To 2 p .m. At the gorgeous Carlisle vault. That's vias and victory a you LT a vault Just like a bank safe.
It is called the Carlisle vault because it's a historic bank going back to the early 20th century that was transformed into a catering hall a very beautiful one at that and the Door of the vault is still in there.
In fact now it's a doorway going between two separate rooms in the catering hall. But that that luncheon which is absolutely free of charge is Going to be held Thursday, January 12th 11 a .m. To 2 p .m.
And any man in the ministry whether he is a pastor an elder a deacon? Perhaps you run a Parachurch organization something like that. You are invited to attend this event absolutely free and you'll be getting a sumptuous gourmet meal.
But free you'll be getting probably between 30 and 40 Brand-new books donated by Christian publishers major Christian publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom You'll be getting a Wonderful message.
I'm sure I'm guessing it will be wonderful. It hasn't happened yet. But I have no doubt that it will be wonderful. The message by dr Tony Costa who is our keynote speaker? Dr. Tony Costa who is professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Canada and so if you would like to attend that free luncheon or if you know somebody who you think would our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
I'm sorry. I'm giving you the wrong Email address, but I'm gonna answer my phone right now. This may be my guest Chris Arnzen. Yes, alrighty, well, I'm live on the air now, so Okay, that's great, thank you.
Well, that was my.
My.
Alleged guests Publisher calling me saying that they're trying their best to get a hold of him. So the beauty and wonder and joy of live radio.
So.
If you'd like to go to that luncheon or if you know somebody who would like to attend that luncheon you would email pastors luncheon Carlyle at gmail .com pastors luncheon Carlyle at gmail .com or Chris Arnzen at comcast .net.
Chris ar n z en at comcast.
Net and.
Also the next night this is open to everyone every man woman and child. No matter what status in life you are in no matter What religion you may adhere to or even if you adhere to none? Although I think there is a very good argument that atheism is a religion, but that's not the topic for today.
So I don't have time to go into that. But no matter who you are you can attend the iron sharpens iron great debate. That is being held at the Carlyle theater in Carlyle, Pennsylvania. This is going to be held Friday the 13th the night after the luncheon Friday the 13th of January at 7 p .m. At the historic Carlyle theater another historic building that dates back to the early 20th century.
A theater that who knows what kind of movies that that theater.
Had.
Showing like you could only imagine the the movies that we all remember that have gone down in history as cinematic Masterpieces like gone with the wind and other things like that. Well, anyway, that theater has been restored to its original Beauty and grandeur and we are having our debate on the theme Mary sinless Queen of Heaven or sinner saved by grace and The competitors if you will the two debaters in that Involved in that event are the aforementioned.
Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary and He is going to be facing another friend of mine, although I disagree with him radically on many things involving religion. And this is one of them my friend Robertson Janice who is founder of Catholic apologetics international will be Defending Mary as a sinless Queen of Heaven at that debate and tickets are five dollars for the debate unlike the luncheon which was free, which will be free the The debate requires a five dollar ticket purchase and you can purchase them at the door.
I would advise you get there early because you never know how many people are going to arrive theater seats 900 and We have had over a thousand people show up at my past debates in New York. So that will be a good problem to have here in Carlisle.
But I have no idea how many people will show up at this one since it's my first Carlisle, Pennsylvania debate that I am hosting. You can also get those tickets in advance at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, that's C V as in victory BBS for Bible Book Service dot-com CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service comm you can contact them and they are selling tickets and We look forward to as many of you as possible.
We listen to iron sharpens iron showing up at this debate. I already know That we have people who are traveling from as far away as Virginia, New York Maryland and Washington DC and we're thrilled about that, so I hope many more of you come and I would love it if Roman Catholics show up in droves.
I want Roman Catholics there more than anybody because it's a sad situation, but the Major Roman Catholic radio station here in this area in the Cumberland County area. The owner of the station very nice lady Wanted to promote this debate but her general manager and other people involved with the station somehow Reversed the decision to promote it so that radio station that Catholic radio station will not be promoting the debate and I am very saddened by that because This is always a fascinating Event and I think people on both sides of this debate may even learn a lot from this experience.
So perhaps if you you who are listening could pray that the radio station Reverses its decision again, but this time for the better that they that they go back to the owners decision to promote the event.
Well.
As I said before we are supposed to be having a guest today that I have no idea if he is going to be joining Us today, but if he doesn't that's okay because I have a knowledgeable co-host with me that I can speak with.
We are waiting for a call from Charlie Ware author of one race one blood a biblical answer to racism and He co-authored that book with Ken Ham. Many of our listeners readily recognize that name. Ken Ham world-renowned creationist advocate young earth creationist advocate and Charles Ware is president of Crossroads Bible College and Ken Ham is president of answers in Genesis.
Well, Charles is supposed to be on the program today and as you heard during my introductions I got a phone call from his publisher on my cell phone and We are not 100 sure he's going to be joining us because they cannot locate him so Even if he doesn't arrive, I know that God has reasons for everything.
That's one of the see this is one of the major blessings about being a Calvinist. Because you know that all things work together for the good for those who love God and are the cold according to his purpose and I don't even understand really how an Arminian can can take Peace and and joy in those texts somebody who doesn't believe God is in in total control over everything.
But I believe that and so does my co-host and his name is Charlie Liebert. Yeah, Chris. Hello. I.
Do want to say something Chris before you go on. About the debate. Okay, because that there's an important aspect of this. I think I want the listeners to hear. Debates are staged for a particular reason.
The reason is simply to promote understanding between two different viewpoints. When I teach my business law class, that's the purpose of my debates and I pick always very Controversial topics for that reason like gun control or abortion, but but the whole purpose of the debate is to promote understanding.
So we can understand the Catholic viewpoint. We don't agree with it. We probably never will but we can understand it better and they can understand our viewpoint better and out of that if we know That God is sovereign then in fact people may be saved as a result because they come to see the truth.
Right and what I have said to Catholics and others because there are a lot of evangelicals Who are very squeamish about this kind of a thing. They really don't want to Partake in anything like this. They think it's mean-spirited.
They think sometimes even that it is an exercise in hate and bigotry but the thing is as I've repeated to many of these people on both sides of the Tiber River whether they're Catholic and or Protestant or Neither who oppose this?
Event or these events these debates. I have said that Number one it is one of the highest acts of love that you could demonstrate To warn someone if you believe they are believing or doing something that is bringing them grave danger, whether spiritually mentally or physically and this is certainly a religiously Dangerous area because if the Roman Catholics are right Those who are rejecting the Mary that they venerate are In serious trouble.
They are in serious sin if that is the case and if we are right if the evangelicals the Bible believing Christians as We typically will call ourselves if we are right that Mary Was although she had a very unique role in history and was chosen by God to bear His son Jesus Christ God in the flesh That that she was chosen to carry him and give birth to him.
Other than that she is just a sinner saved by grace like every other Christian and The Bible doesn't even really say all that much about her and Not that is not to denigrate her or take away from her But if the the Bible believing Protestants are right about Mary Then the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox and everyone else who venerates her they are Committing the sin of idolatry, which is a very dangerous sin to be involved in.
It's a it's a sin that In some cases in the scriptures God especially when you're referring to the Old Covenant people were struck dead by God for worshiping in an Unbiblical manner in a manner that he did not prescribe or command and When you add veneration of Mary and the Saints and their relics and images into the mix you are.
Just.
Stripping Jesus Christ of the glory that is due only to him. You are watering down What he did on the cross. You are really denying his exclusiveness and.
His.
Role his sole role as Redeemer in the gospel plan that Was ordained by God himself. So this is a an area that either side should be interested in What they believe the truth to be publicly declared in the presence of those who reject what they view as truth and These are not mean-spirited although You know, they can be stern.
Events, this is not mr. Rogers Having somebody in from his neighborhood in the living room to have coffee or should I say cookies and milk? This is you know, a very serious thing being discussed and debated by two serious men who take their faith seriously and take What they believe true worship to be.
They take that seriously and So this is not going to be two ecumenists blowing kisses to each other from across the room. It can be stern and being Fallible human beings being sinners. It may get more stern than I would be comfortable with at times but that that should not prevent us from doing things like this and It's a very sad day when people think it is a superior.
Model.
To Express your love for someone who disagrees with you by sweeping things under the rug. It's as if they're saying Let's just forget about that. You know, I don't want to make somebody uncomfortable.
Jesus Christ didn't behave that way the Apostle Paul didn't behave that way and in fact whenever these ecumenists get an uproar about these debates What they are really saying is that they are nicer than the Apostle Paul.
Because if you remember when he wrote his letter to the church in Galatia about the Judaizers In our day and age in the 21st century if the Apostle Paul was alive most Evangelical leaders I am certain Would rebuke the Apostle Paul for exposing the Judaizers as being guilty of damnable sin and That's what he did.
He said they should be accursed and the only thing that we know of that the Judaizers Believed that Paul did not believe is That Gentiles who became Christians had to be circumcised. That's the only thing that we know for certain that this group disagreed with When it came to the gospel and when it came to the gospel that Paul preached and yet that one thing got Paul filled with righteous indignation and he condemned the Judaizers as preaching a false gospel, which is no gospel at all and So, I don't know why people who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible both Roman Catholics and Evangelical Protestants are supposed to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.
I don't know why we're supposed to be nicer than the Apostle Paul when it comes to an issue like this, but I do thank you for bringing that up Charlie and Well, I want to get to know something about you.
It may be it may very well be that you are my sole guest today and that's fine with me. Okay, that's fine. But I want to hear something. I know that you are Founder of a six-day creation .com but before we even get into that and before we even get into the fact that you are an Orthodox Presbyterian tell us something about your childhood the religion of your upbringing if any.
Okay, and what providential things came about in your life that drew you to Christ? Yes.
Let me start to kind of start at the beginning. I grew up in a small town on an island called Amityville and so did I. That's that's always funny. We both graduated from the same high school, but when I went that when I went to.
When I was a child growing up with my parents. They took us to church every Sunday at the local Methodist Church, and I was there as a child taught. Was that Simpson? Oh, no, we were at first. Okay on 110 110, right?
And then and then later on we went to Simpson. But but we were we were at the that was the prime church in town. That was the big one and you and interestingly enough.
Those Methodist churches, even though they're liberal when I was doing the debates on Long Island, they would promote them really. Well, at least they would Graciously accept my flyers and told me that they hung them up and that kind of thing.
Well, we went to the church pretty much every Sunday with my parents and I remember about 16 I I wasn't religious as a child, but about 16 years old I was sitting in the in the congregation one Sunday morning and the pastor was preaching Methodists take a very strong stand against alcohol and He was preaching a sermon about that.
But the evil of drinking. Really. Because today I wouldn't I don't think that they had the old Wesleyan.
I don't think I don't think they do either anymore. But but they did then certainly and and and I sat there as a 16 year old and I knew the people around me. Particularly some of the ones that I that I knew directly from my parents had been to the Yacht Club opening the night before.
With the bins copious amounts of liquor consumed by a large number of people. So I thought as a 16 year old I dropped out. Although I continued to go to church I pretty much shut down anything the church ever had to say to me by the time I was in my Late teens early 20s.
I had become a park or atheist. Couple things couple things influenced me for that. Well, the first one was I had a friend there were actually six of us that grew up together on Long Island and in high school in that day and One of them was Paul.
Paul. Paul and I stayed in town after everyone else graduated in 1959 and we stayed in town and in I was a volunteer fireman. My Sunday mornings were now spent playing pinochle rather than going to church and I was in the In the I went down to the firehouse on Sunday morning and the sergeant behind the desk Eddie Baxter said to me Charlie You know what happened last night?
I said no. Well Paul's girlfriend Dorothy at 18 years old died of cerebral hemorrhage. He never recovered. He became an alcoholic and eventually took his own life. And I said how can how can they be a God that that would allow that kind of thing to happen.
So by the time I was in my 20s in college, I'd pretty much become a hardcore atheist. Now I married a Catholic girl and we had two children and moved to Greensboro, North Carolina. When we were in New Jersey, we were enjoying Family on every on the weekends her big kept big Italian Catholic family was a great place to spend Sunday.
So we did that a lot and we got to Greensboro and there was nothing going on on Sunday. And she decided to go because some friends in the neighborhood asked her to go to a Episcopal church she decided to go there and left me home and with two children.
Well, that didn't last long. I didn't manage two children. Well, okay, particularly with Some of my my characteristics so I decided to go to church too. So we went to Episcopal Church in that church. They were Nothing threatening was ever said from the pulpit there there was a lot of stories about Three ways to make French bread and all kinds of different sermons that didn't really see.
That's what if you ever talk if you ever talk to my wife about but that those years She'll she'll mention that three ways to make French bread.
But by the way, don't let me forget to bring up Eddie Baxter again when you continue your story. Okay, okay.
We.
There were three families in this church whose lives were different very different and I didn't understand why but their lives were different and They asked us to join a Bible study with them. Now during this time after you moved to North Carolina I was.
Our marriage was in trouble. My wife and I were having good conflict to the point where we actually discussed divorce at one point I was addicted to pornography and I also was having a relatively strong drinking problem.
All those things were coming apart. I was promoted at work. I got a new job with great prospects for working for a man. I hated. Everything seemed to be coming apart and they advised the Bible study. We went for 16 weeks.
Things seemed to improve at home but then the study was over and we went back and about six months later Frank Grove invited me to Go to a retreat weekend in Asheville, North Carolina. Now in Asheville, we went to the retreat weekend on it started on Thursday night.
Thursday night they walked us through the Catholic tradition because this was the Episcopal retreat of the Stations of the Cross. We walked through that and then we took a vow of silence and Sun Friday Friday morning.
We got up out of bed had our breakfast and then the man came out and gave a talk. And in that talk, he has three questions. What's your purpose in life? What does it mean? And where you going? I Realized he couldn't answer those questions.
I mean, I yeah, I had a wife two kids a house a car. I had all that stuff, but I knew that wasn't the answer. I knew that wasn't the answer. So I began to struggle with that question. I wrestled with those questions all weekend.
Until Saturday night Saturday night I went at the chapel by myself alone about 1130 at night and I just got down as a typical Episcopal wouldn't kneel at the kneeler and just kind of sat there for a minute and Some things flashed back in my mind two things flashed back.
First was was Paul's death Paul's Suicide and then second thing was we used to spend time as students when I was going to my bachelors at night drinking beer in front of TV and watching Billy Graham and some of those things.
Some of those some of those things he said came back. The second thing that came back was I had a friend Frank who had talked to me 15 years before when I was working on my master's and Had given me testimony and Frank simply told me the story of his life.
He married his high school sweetheart started a business in Amityville was very successful. Everything seemed to go well, and then one day he's actually living in the next town over his house burned down.
And his wife and children died in the fire. Hmm he lost everything. And as a result became an alcoholic eventually lost his home is he became homeless. He just he just completely fell apart, and then he looked across the table at me and said this to me.
He said Charlie. That all happened for a reason and the reason is because that's how I came to know Jesus Christ. Now this is 15 years before I would even even come to Christ. But he planted the seed who's faithful to plant the seed and as a result of that.
So thinking about those things I said in my heart God if you're real and I wasn't really sure he was. You can have my life because it's totally messed up and it was. And of course he took it. I came back to Greensboro a new creature not really understanding what had happened to me.
Okay, you're just knowing that God had changed me somehow in fact when I walked in the den my wife recognized that and I my friend that invited me to come said Charlie pick up the Bible read the Gospel of John.
I've been reading the Bible for years. But when a person reads it that doesn't believe they're in the dark. They're reading with the lights off. It really doesn't make any sense and now suddenly the lights are on.
Well, I got to John chapter 3. The kind counter with Nicodemus and at 2 a .m. I called Frank and said Frank Have I been born again? And Frank said Charlie, I believe you have and that was the beginning.
God would heal our marriage. God would Do a whole massive thing a bunch of things, but that's how I came to know Christ through that retreat weekend. Terry would go my wife would go. About three months later and she too would come to Christ.
Her because of her Catholic background as she walked through the stations of the cross she basically heard in her mind God say to her I died because of your sin not because of the old sins of the world but because of your particular sin and that brought her to Christ and when we when I counted her at the weekend We looked across through with each other and our eyes met and we knew she knew I knew that she knew what I knew.
That we both have become new believers. So that's my story Chris.
Yeah, some reason I I'm getting some kind of a flashback from an Abbott and Costello Skip, you know that I know that you know. Exactly. Yes, I don't know if it's Evan Costello, but it's something. Yes.
It's one of the comedian sets, right? But yeah, you mentioned Eddie Baxter. Do you know if Eddie Baxter had sons named Cliff and Mark? I believe so because Mark is a good friend of mine. He's a born-again believer has been has been for many years he's theologically reformed also and He is now.
He and his wife Jackie are now attending Community Baptist Church in Riverhead Long Island, New York pastored by my very good friend pastor Josh Fryman and Cliff Baxter sadly Is no longer with us don't know what his faith was but He Passed away about I don't know seven or eight years ago perhaps even longer than that Eddie was.
A very interesting guy. I'll give you one of the little piece of trivia and we will go further on this. We will go further on this. But Eddie was the first one on the scene at the murders in the Amityville House of Horror.
Really? Yes, he was and he would say later on in the years. But yeah post that he would say. I could never get those images out of my mind. Yeah, he must have actually been with.
My friend or pastor Rich Jensen, he's a pastor now, but he was a homicide detective.
Suffolk County Police Department because he was among those first people on the scene. Yeah. Yeah, and he was one of the first on the scene.
Well, how did you? Well, actually we're gonna go to a break right now before I go into the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. And what drew you to that denomination. And if anybody would like to ask Charlie Liebert not Charlie where.
Charlie Liebert my co-host a question and let me let me could comment on that if the listeners have any questions. Anywhere Christian apologetics, I'll be glad to go. Okay. All right, great.
It doesn't have to be just in the realm of creation versus evolution or young earth versus old earth or anything like that. It could be beyond that scope. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at comcast .net.
Chris Arnzen at comcast .net. We already have a first-time listener who has a question for Charlie where? But maybe you could answer it anyway. You could also email us at iron sharpens iron radio at gmail .com.
Iron sharpens iron radio gmail .com. And please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Don't go away. We're gonna be right back with my co-host Charlie we're.
Charlie Liebert.
Yes, Charlie. Liebert of six day creation calm and maybe Charlie where we'll be joining us too. So don't go away. We'll be right back. God willing.
I.
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Much more than faith finances and generosity. That's the private story.
I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio. And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference. He and I are going to.
Hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched a TV and occasional guest on Chris's show.
Think I think that's what it's called. Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta. My new hometown. It is going to be a bang-up conference called the g3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie back from Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people.
We hope to see you there. Learn more at g3 conference .com g3 conference dot-com.
Thanks, Todd, I think. See you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth.
Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.
It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant. It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.
We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together.
Hi. I'm pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can. Be call in Brook Baptist at five one six five nine nine nine four zero two.
That's five one six five nine nine nine four zero two or visit Linbrook Baptist org. That's Linbrook Baptist org. Welcome back. This is Chris Orns.
And if you just tuned us in our guest today, it looks like a man went from being my co-host to my guest today Charlie Liebert founder of six day creation calm and We possibly may be joined by Charles Ware.
Dr. Charles Ware was supposed to be on the show today and somehow completely slipped his mind. I'm assuming He is author of a book that we were going to discuss one race one blood a biblical answer to racism.
But we don't know if dr. Ware is going to be joining us. So we are going to continue our discussion discussion with Charles Liebert and we are Taking our taking emails at Chris Ornson at comcast .net my other Primary gmail account is still frozen by Google for going over their quota.
I'm amazed at how long they're dragging this out to Reactivate my email address with them. So Chris Ornson at comcast .net you can you can use for questions and you can also use iron sharpens iron Radio at gmail .com.
That's iron sharpens iron radio at gmail .com and If you could I want to find out since you are an Orthodox Presbyterian Currently attending the Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania and you were An Orthodox Presbyterian in North Carolina prior to coming here.
So if you could tell us about.
This is a this is a little bit longer story because I have. My wife and I came to Christ in the sixth in 77 and we moved almost immediately Greenville, South Carolina and when we were down there, we found a church by the name of Mitchell Road Presbyterian Church, which was then our PCES later joined the PCA and Dr. Cross was the pastor at the time.
Dr. Thomas Cross and dr. Cross and John Buzwell jr. Were the two pastors and After we got there and we went in the first Sunday and I'll it possibly I could tell you a story about how we how we Got there, but that's not important right now that we got there the first Sunday my wife and I walked in a pastor had a What was called a visitors class went in there and realized this is where the Lord wanted us.
So we were there during that during that two and a half years I was actually trained and ordained as a deacon and then as an elder and sent to start a mission work in Simpsonville. Which is right south of Greenville.
We started as a small small church there. That still exists today. The founding elders were myself a render Cain's a pastor from Chattanooga and another elder by the name of John Wheeler. So we were Presbyterian from the beginning that's where that's where they got.
That's where God took us and he took us to the doctrines of grace almost immediately and I've never struggled with that Chris. That's one thing. That's interesting. A lot of people struggle with it. I've never struggled with it because it's how God dealt with me directly.
So we we came back to Greensboro, North Carolina. We bounced around with an ARP Church for over 20 years. We were in an independent church for a while and then about six years ago my wife and I decided we were gonna leave the ARP because of some issues related to Creation that has come up with the pastor that was in the church.
We were in and We visited OPC, that's Providence Presbyterian Church in Greenville, Greensboro, North Carolina and under pastor very finick and Again, the same thing happened. It took about 60 seconds.
I looked at my wife. She looked at me and said yeah, this is the right place and the question is why am I there? There are basically two two principal reasons. The first one is simply doctrine. I mean, I'm I am a strong Calvinist I believe in the five points.
I have no issues with any of them. So they they will support that and the second one is I really love that form of worship which is Semi lit semi liturgical I would call it. Okay, it's it's dialogical.
We we repeat creeds we Do responsive readings. We will say the Lord's Prayer. We'll do a catechism question as part of the worship. We'll sing and then of course, he'll be preaching and To me that's a very important part that that worship is participated that we participate in not just singing the songs.
But also in dialoging on the doctrines of the of grace the doctrines of the faith because they're in the hymns. But they're also in the confessions and in the catechisms and all those things are important as part of worship.
So that's why I'm an OPC because that form of worship and the basic Calvinist doctrine which is what I believe the Bible teaches very clearly and.
What was unique about the OPC that Really set it apart.
Amongst.
You know, there are other Presbyterian churches faithful to the Westminster standards and so on. Yes. Is there anything else?
Yeah, yes I think I think the one the one thing that struck us in both these cases in Providence and also in Redeemer is. The reception is the moment you walk in the door. People greet you the people get to meet you that people want to talk to you.
They want to learn who you are and and and. And. Establish a level of fellowship. And the first couple weeks. We were at Redeemer and the first couple weeks. We're at Providence. We were invited to two or three different families homes for lunch at the church and that was just to get us get us involved in the in the church itself and also to get to know some of the people.
And that's important because the Because being Christians are three-legged stool. It's the scripture its fellowship and it's the the sacraments. So it's important that we that we understand that fellowship is part of this been part of that fellowship is holding each other accountable and.
Obviously you have Fallen in love with Apologetics. Yes, I have and perhaps even with a special although not exclusive interest in defending young earth creationism, but if you could explain how you Developed this passion for apologetics and in particular the study of the.
Biblical creation apologetic. Yeah, let's let's go there. That's a that's an interesting question. When I became a Christian I was a hardcore atheist I said that earlier and. As a hardcore atheist one of the things I believed is I believed evolution just as it was taught to me directly in school I mean my teachers wouldn't lie to me with they.
I mean, of course not. He just must have told me the truth when they told me evolution is how man got here so I bought into that and and then when I became when I was converted in 77, I started reading scripture and it started and I read begin reading also in Genesis besides in John and It's pretty clear to me.
There wasn't any evolution there at all. It was six days and it was pretty pretty clear. That's what the language said. Anyway, I'll get more into that in a minute, but the language said that pretty clearly.
So I said well that certainly conflicts with evolution. So I embarked on basically three years study. I went back to the sources. Okay, I've been taught one side of a question. And this is where we need to understand that you need to hear both sides of a question.
I saw it one side the evolution aside. So for the first time I began to read the creation side. I read books by Henry Morris Ken Ham Dwayne Gish Gary Parker all those people that wrote about wrote those books in those time frames about creation versus evolution and I evolved Chris.
From a old old earth evolutionist into a young earth creationist over those three years I became convinced our young earth creation made more sense than anything I'd ever ever seen in terms of evolution.
So I just it just became a natural belief to me now as a result of that I began to teach Sunday school and I taught some Sunday school materials on apologetics and One of the ladies in the churches we were in at that time in Greensboro asked me well Can you do something for our children?
So I developed a workshop program, which I've done for years for homeschool children. It's a three-hour workshop. It's called creation dinosaurs in the flood and it's a whole series of activities. It's activity driven.
It's not content driven, but it's activity driven. But the children get a lot of stuff out of that so I began to get into apologetics and as I did eventually I would encounter and meet Ken Ham through a Friend that also works with the ministry called Mark Lloyd and as a result of meeting Ken I would eventually work for that ministry and develop a real love for apologetics and When I say apologetics, I mean basically Presuppositional apologetics, I believe the presuppositions are critical and I've wrote that in the books.
We'll talk about on January 23rd.
And I think that because of the fact there are as I've mentioned before on my program there are a Number of people that are brand new Christians who listen there are some people who are not Christians at all Who listen to iron sharpens iron.
We've got a define and explain apologetics because the way that people have used the word apologize for Probably over well over a century Is not really the original intent behind the root of that word it.
It originally means to give an explanation. It does not mean I'm sorry. So if you're giving an apologetic For the Bible the authenticity of the Bible or the inerrancy of the Bible. You're not apologizing and saying I'm sorry.
That the Bible is inerrant and I'm really sorry. I believe in this but you know, you're not doing that.
No, you're you're basically just you're basically giving it. It's back to the verse in Timothy You are giving an answer for the hope that is in you. Mm-hmm. You said and this is this is where we fail our teenagers.
We need to prepare them to be able to have an understanding of why they believe what they believe. This is this is one of my I'll get on the soapbox for a minute here. This is one of the critical things in this culture and Ken Ham's written about a bunch of stuff about it.
But this is a critical area. You need to know why you believe what you believe. Is what you believe reasonable. Does it make sense? Is it transformational all those questions you need to answer because when you get out in the world?
The world is gonna challenge you it's gonna challenge you very strongly and if you don't have a good answer You're gonna get flustered. You're gonna get Taken off track and maybe eventually you'll so-called lose your faith now.
You don't really lose your faith because you probably never had it. But the point simply is is it did that you'll get off track because you don't know the reason for the hope that's in you. And that's critical.
That's very important and I deal with that we talk about up my books.
Yeah, well you have written at least two books. Mid-practice. Actually you have the third one on the way, right?
Yes, the third one's I actually I actually got the the text proof of it two days ago so the the first book is a book that deals with evangelism because I was struck by the question or the problem that came up in my teaching and the problem was simply that people are asked questions by by Unbelievers and they don't have an answer so they get off the track and they never get to the gospel.
So I've developed a strategy based on what Jesus did with the Pharisees and some of the other encounters. And how to get around that how do you don't answer the question. You ask the question with another question and Then other question will get to probing proper presuppositions and then you give the gospel.
The now what I was working on that first book my friend. Well, one of my spiritual mentors Bob Kelly said to me Charlie now that you got the strategy to deal with evangelism personal evangelism. How about the questions?
So I had maintained a website for 25 years answering questions on the web called six day creation calm and in that website I had developed a whole over a hundred questions with standard answers that I would just post when people would ask because the same questions keep coming up again and Again, I just post those so that became the second book answers for the hope that's in you.
As I wrote that book, I did a small section a small chapter on creation versus evolution. But I didn't do it a lot of justice. I just kind of over overviewed the issues around it and Bob again said to me Charlie you need to go further on that issue.
Because that's one of the key issues in this culture. So the third book what doesn't have biblical title at all. It's called without three miracles. Darwin's dead.
And and he's dead with or without.
The point is and the emphasis is in the book and I'd like I said, I'm just doing last proofs now the emphasis in the book is is Evolution can't happen for three reasons. Something from nothing that's impossible and science proves that that's impossible.
Life from dead stuff science proves that's impossible. Okay, both of those violate scientific laws. You can't get there from here with those and the third one is is is evolution proposes going uphill in the universe.
That is going downhill. It's called entropy in physics and it's a downhill trend of all of the universe. Everything goes downhill. Eventually not nothing survives and nothing is created intelligently without a Intelligence behind it either God himself or in the case of the creation.
The file process of photosynthesis is one of the main machines that keeps all life alive.
People don't realize that either. Well, we have a question. I don't know if you can answer this question But since dr. Ware is not here We have Jerry in Charlestown, New Hampshire a first-time Questioner on iron sharpens iron and Jerry.
I assure you if and when dr. Ware Does actually become a guest on iron sharpens iron it might even be later today. I will make sure that I Read this question to him as well.
But actually Chris, let me stop you for a second I will I will give you two of my Copies of my books to send to this listener also for the question. In other words two of your books one copy of each. One copy beats of my books.
Yes. Oh great.
Well, look at that Jerry and you're also because you're a first-time questioner. You're also getting a brand new New American Standard Bible. Since you are a first-time questioner to iron sharpens iron.
Well, Jerry says. Do you think that the West in general and even the church in particular has imbibed? Marxist ideology when it comes to thinking of race. Namely that it divides people into different groups marked Almost exclusively by their race and then seeks to pit them against each other for their own benefit.
For example, it seems that people on the left want to identify those with darker pigment of skin only as black. Almost to the point where their ontological identity is black rather than an image bearer of God.
And it seems they do so to stoke a grievance culture to their own political purposes if this is indeed Marxist thinking. Why is it so destructive to unity among fellow human beings? And how do we confront it with the truth of God's Word?
Thank you for all you do Chris Jerry and Charleston. Charlestown.
New Hampshire, okay. He is correct. It's Marxist. But it's more than that because it's atheistic and it's more than that because it's evolutionary. Was it. It's interesting.
I never would have guessed that it was Marxist because I thought the whole point of Marxism was to view all of humanity as one regardless of their ethnicity and that's why there was no Nationalism with the with the economy the Russia became a part of the Soviet Union and so forth.
That's that's the theory but in practice the opposite is what happened. Okay, that's the theory.
And by the way, I wasn't plugging Marxism as if it was something good. I just was puzzled by the that particular.
But let me let's get to the origin of races itself because this this is extremely important because Racism springs out of the evolutionary presupposition and I'll say that again racism springs out of the evolution of presupposition.
Evolutionists say that man evolved from monkeys and during that process at different points in the process different graces spun off and They actually ranked them in in in what Darwin's second book. He talks about the rise of man and he talks about that a little bit that races.
So so they rank the races. The races were simple. Okay, the white European students are writing of textbooks. So they want their number one. Then come the Orientals then come the Browns and then come the blacks and the blacks are regarded as inferior.
By evolutionary process. Okay. I'm not saying all evolutionists are racist. What I'm saying simply is that's the process that that's how it gets there. Okay, so the in in the early part of the 19th century the Evolutionary scientists would go to place like Tasmania shoot the shoot shoot the natives down.
Boil out the skulls and send them back to England as artifacts of evolution that really happened. Okay, and and the the regarding was and you can look at this too in your history books. They go back and look at what was called white man's burden.
Okay. Because the white were regarded as superior to the black and as a result we had a burden to to bring them up to Standard that's all absurd. The Bible is very clear on this. We're all descendants of Adam and Eve.
We have with the the differences between us are genetic they and they're cultural but they're not racist.
Okay.
Racism is a classification scheme that comes out of evolution and it's important to understand that because when you understand that then you realize that Whole evolution of presupposition puts us back where we are today in the u .s.
It puts us backward instead of forward. If the Church of Jesus Christ would get this one, right? That is understanding. We are all one race. We're all Of the same her parentage from Adam and Eve this child culture would be transformed in fact.
Some people have joked that the most segregated time of week is the Sunday morning and that's probably true in some cases now. That's cultural differences. But that doesn't mean that we should should separate ourselves at all.
Because because we are all one race and then that's an important thing. It's in the book that we're talking about today From dr. Ware and Ken Ham that that the origin of races is very important and it's very important to understand that we are all one Race now what happened is when men were dispersed at Babel they took the language with them.
They also took their genes with them and then a process which is not evolution called natural selection worked itself out. And the people that survived in the various environments on the earth survived based upon the characteristics they had genetically but why are the people the black people at the equator and Light light-skinned people north almost to the almost to the Arctic Circle.
The reason is simple. There are certain genetic characteristics that set them apart for example in In the African American well in in African races the people living in Africa they tend to have a a genetic devariation called sickle cell a Sickle cell if the child has both genes gets the disease and of course the child is not not healthy.
But if the child has one of which is called the trait one of the genes, but not the second one. They can give it to a child. But they also have an immunity that comes as a result of that genetics and the communities of the parasite called malaria which means that in the in the Tropical environments where malaria is prevalent who's going to survive the dark-skinned people.
So natural selection sorted out the people after they dispersed for Babel based upon the genetic characteristics they have and it's always in the genes. I know for example Oriental people have the olive a little bit of a shaped eye and They have the yellowish skin color.
That's in the genes. They have a gene that carries their Their fat at a higher level in the toward the skin than most do Native Americans have a red skin. What is that? That's in the genes. What's in the genes?
They have the characteristics of the capillaries and their skin is very close to the surface. So they have the reddish color. So it's always genetic. It's never racial rate race is a construct. Okay, I understand that it's a construct.
It's just a way to classify particular people that have particular genetics and of course what happens is the genes get. Don't get mixed up. Until modern times because transportation people don't are not going most people didn't go more than 30 miles from where they were born.
So the genes didn't get mixed up now in modern times that's changing. We're seeing a lot of a lot a lot of mixing of the races. But this racial classification is an evolutionary construct to understand that and the Bible does not teach that very clearly.
Yes, I mean there are Caucasians with darker skins than quote-quote Negroes if you want to use that term.
There's been several cases and AIG has published a couple of these where people that have brown skin. Okay, not black and not white but brown. Okay, the color you find in the country like India or Pakistan in that part of the world.
Well, they they have mixed melanin genes. Okay, black people have all black genes. They go pretty soon. We have black children and Caucasians are pretty much all white genes. But the people with the brown skin have the mixed genes which means that sometimes in the family you'll have two children born and one will be light-skinned almost like a Caucasian and the other be dark-skinned almost like an African American and They'll be the same parents.
Because because it's again, it's purely genetic. It's just based upon the melanin in the skin.
Well, thank you. Jerry. Keep listening to the iron sharpens iron and keep spreading the word about the program in Charlestown New Hampshire, and if anybody else would like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at comcast .net.
Chris Arnzen at comcast .net or iron sharpens iron radio at gmail .com. Iron sharpens iron radio at gmail .com. Now it is Amazing to me that.
That.
The liberals are.
Really.
The champions of evolution. And yet it seems to Contradict things that they claim they are. It seems to contradict the things that they claim they are championing like Interracial harmony and viewing people.
Apart.
From their their the color of their skin or what ethnicity they belong to and all that kind of thing. It just seems amazing to me.
They could uphold not only uphold with fairly common unanimity the understanding of evolution Darwinian evolution. But to deny it They would say Puts you on the category of being a moron. And yet this very System of thought Darwinian evolution has inherent to it Racism and why I don't know.
Even conservatives whether they're politicians or Christians Christian apologists or when they. Get in and involved in either a debate or discussion of the whole matter of evolution and you'll have you know, you'll have liberals like Chris Matthews laughing hysterically if he finds out a Republican candidate for any political office.
Doesn't believe in evolution. Like as if this is some kind of proven fact Darwinian evolution is a proven fact.
One.
One thing that's important here is to understand that outside of biblical truth Almost all logical reasoning is contradictory. Mm-hmm. I mean you look at the atheists.
Yeah, well what I was gonna say is that even the conservatives the the Christians or political conservatives either they're ignorant or for some reason they don't bring it up, but. The original title of Darwin's book is on the origin of species by means of natural selection or the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life.
He was a racist. He was a racist and he believed as the Nazis believed and as others superior inferior.
And that blacks and people of non white Non white races or colors or you know, they would categorize them as being in different races.
Yes that they would be closer in the evolutionary chain to the ape. That's correct. That's correct. And.
So why. Why is it that you don't have? Conservatives screaming this from the rooftop.
Even when they're given these grand opportunities in public because it's politically incorrect.
How is it politically incorrect if you're publicly opposing something and saying I don't believe in evolution. Why wouldn't you want to bring that up? Because because the cultural.
Control particularly in the media is that evolution is the only answer creation cannot be tolerated and it's a laughable answer. They they simply presume that and because they presume that anyone that even attempts to say it Is going to get left that and this is gonna be really interesting in the current administration because Mike Pence is a creationist.
I know that from some of the writings. He's done. Well, I hope he brings it up. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure he's going to. And that's gonna create all kinds of issues with the media because the media wants to do that.
And by the way.
His pastor I have heard recently is a graduate of Master Seminary John MacArthur's. Yes. Yes. We're going to go to another break right now. And if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.
Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're gonna be right back. God willing after these messages with Charlie Liebert of six-day creation Calm and possibly even dr. Charles Ware.
You never know. We'll be right back after these messages. Chris Arnson here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia. And here's my friend. Dr. James White to tell you why. Hi.
I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor Josh vice and praise mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.
I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Bodie Balcom Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what g3 stands for Gospel grace and glory.
For more details go to g3 conference .com. That's g3 conference .com.
Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there.
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Bringing new life to your home. Welcome back and God is good because he has produced for us our originally scheduled guest Dr. Charles Ware. He is president of Crosswoods Bible College in Indianapolis, Indiana and the author of several books. He is also chairman of the Association for Biblical higher educations ethnic diversity committee and speaks at churches Christian schools colleges seminaries Mission conferences camps prisons and civic functions in the United States and abroad.
In addition Dr. Ware is a consultant on racial reconciliation and leadership in various organizations and companies Including Walmart and his ministry is well received by audiences of all races and we are going to discuss his book one race one blood a Biblical answer to racism and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to iron sharpens iron for the very first time.
Dr.
Charles where.
Hello, dr. Where you broke up off there for a second. Are you there? Yes. Okay here. Can you hear me? Yes, so now I can hear you. Yes, you said sorry about the mix-up. Oh, well those things happen and they've happened to me too on more occasions than I care to.
Bring up during a live program and my co-host In studio with me who is actually from my first hour been my guest.
This is a.
Charlie Liebert who is founder of six day creation. Calm. And thank you for doing such a great job during the first hour Charlie.
Probably 15 years ago.
Okay. Yeah, I just by the way, I just got back from the ark encounter yesterday. Well, I'm covetous.
I want to go there myself and I've been there yet.
Want to first of all just get a brief summary dr. Ware of your own upbringing the religion of your youth if any and what. What things came about in your life? Providentially by the hand of God that drew you to himself and saved you.
Well, yes, I Was born in Kissimmee, Florida before Disney World got there summers and go during that time of life and Florida was set up north to be integrated and go back down south into Segregation.
Well during those times, I think about seventh grade. My family began to step ninth grade. I was Sophomore, I mean ninth grade three sports a year lettered in three sports a year, but was empty and Was looking for real and in my senior year 1968 Martin Luther King jr. Was assassinated.
Robert Kennedy was assassinated. Racial tensions of our major cities. Two white men came to my house on Monday night full of Jesus Christ. I repented of my sins and God gave a degree turn white. My mama said I look like a flower bowl of milk.
Don't think I've ever heard that. When I've heard I've heard similar analogies, but just not that one. I think I've heard you look like a raisin in a bowl of cornflakes or something like that.
And.
Now how did the direction in your life begin where you were. Basically opposing the the commonly held beliefs of liberals when it especially came to Issues that regard the nature of man the origins of man the origins of life.
Creation and that kind of thing in high school. And they were showing how you know.
So even before you were saved that you you didn't even buy into the the whole nonsense of evolution then.
You know what really hit me quite frankly was in the church Interracial marriage was this friend that I actually a black fellow that I took to a youth Meeting and he made a profession and He was an outstanding athlete.
A lot of the white girls was around him and he was told not to sit next to the white.
Girls.
So he came to me and want to know what was about. I told him I don't know but weren't here for girls here for Jesus. I just forget it. He was two grades behind me and he was going to come play.
Went to. I got saved in March 1968 and August of 1968. I was in a Bible college I mean this when he was a senior our school our school went 22 and old. They went straight through the sectionals and But at any rate he said he wanted to come got a hold of him that summer and told him that Christian was a white incidents.
Well, he wasn't trying to sit next to the white girls. They were trying to sit next to him and he was picked out. So he just Decided he wasn't coming about with a gal got on drugs. Beat her up wind up in jail.
Wow friend of mine call me and I was in college and said I think you need to go visit him. He'll listen to you. Well, it was through writing a letter that time. He got out of jail. So after he got out of jail, he got involved with another gal.
I think they I mean about 19 years of age and I had a lot of regrets. Maybe I should have went and visit him this and that but it did drive me to the question So what does the Bible have to say about race and interracial marriage?
So I studied a paper and did a paper on for my class in College called clear to me that we all came from man made us unified in the body of Christ was the death burial and resurrection of Christ and That God had prohibition against saved and unsaved people.
So it was like the Word of God opened my eyes at that point and I've kind of been Giving giving out that message ever since then.
Praise God. You were talking about churches and pastors and Christians Believing that Interracial quote-quote marriage is not biblically correct and so on. Have you confronted that? Very much today other than those folks who are openly identifying with some kind of a.
A.
Racially an organization racially motivated or motivated by racial hatred. I should say racial hatred bigotry and so on. I mean I'd be shocked if in this day and age if a If a pastor other than his own private bigotry that he may wrestle with a pastor or a.
Perspective person within the faith outside of these Organizations like the Klan and neo-nazi groups and skinheads and so on. If they were to actually say even today that Interracial marriage is is not accepted by God.
I know that there are some cults that Have taught that. I know that the Worldwide Church of God used to teach that. I don't know if they still do. But if you could comment on that.
Well, yeah, it's a lot different than what I got saved. In fact, I give you one of your extreme program team 20 years ago now and and a white supremacist call I'm gonna come and he said he wouldn't talk to me.
Talk to the host of the show who was white. He said we know where white people came from. White people came from Adam. We don't even know where black people came from. So what are your guests got to say about there in Romans 5.
Where for sin in at the world by one man? That man was Adam and that that death passed upon all of sin if only white people can't. Adam didn't all the white people of sinners, I guess. And.
That's gonna that's gonna unhinge him quickly. Yeah.
But but today I definitely think that Many and and there were some what I call some good Christians who just felt that the Bible Taught that interracial marriage was wrong. I think that has really changed but teach a course.
I'd created a course called culture race in the trouble college Biblically, and I have yet to teach the course and I just taught it again in January Where there were not students in the class teacher of had teaching that Interracial marriage is wrong biblically and and it kind of surprises me because I was thinking well, I'm going to start a date.
Yeah, that's a shame. And obviously we have to be clear to distinguish That from when people say a good Bible believing biblically sound theologically accurate. Christian Might be heard saying that he's against mixed marriages.
But that is in regard to the faith of the of the individuals not the skin color or ethnicity.
Definitely definitely and I you know, I could help me in interacting on this subject with people in general our in our society. Tell people what I would. I've helped me and I mentioned in the book one race one blood.
I kind of parkour races or race and they're so hardcore that Evidence doesn't really change them. Data doesn't matter. I said, I don't meet many people like that. It would be some like you just mentioned Klan white supremacist and even black.
Muslims could fall into that group. So that's right nation of Islam, right? Yeah.
So so what I say is all right, I'll meet many there but but most people I meet are prejudiced. That means they are prejudged based on their experience media so on and so forth what they read and heard most of those people if you bring them the facts and Show them the model they will change and.
Then I have people what I call perplex. They just don't know everybody. I don't know what I call you African American Afro American Negro black, you know, what? I don't really know what to do. What's offending you what's not?
So we come alongside then give them a hug.
Then.
There are people that I call. And that's parents and I've had to set some young people all. Parents who don't want their child in the so-called interracial relationship. I may be but not all but some of my just scared and this might be in our society, right?
So they're trying to protect their child, right? Right. My mother who is now in heaven with Christ.
I believe she would have fallen into that category. My mom My mom in my household growing up if she heard the word the n-word uttered She would treat that as if you said any kind of vulgarity or profanity and we get very Upset about that and it would punish you Just as much as you had said any kind of a vulgar term, but my mom also I Remember when I was a teenager and dating a Dark-skinned Indian girl and my brother was dating her sister.
I remember there being some Concern or fear about if we got married what what would the children have to go through that kind of thing? And I'm not saying that that's necessarily right To think that way but there is a difference between that having that attitude and being a bigot.
Yes, definitely and we do have a question from someone that sent in a question earlier While you weren't here and Charlie my co-host Charlie Liebert did an excellent job answering it. But but since I promised that I Would ask this question to you Should you actually come on the program today?
I wanted to make sure that I Fulfilled my promise to Jerry in Charlestown, New Hampshire, who's a first-time questioner on iron sharpens iron and Jerry from Charlestown, New Hampshire asks Let's see. I have to enlarge the font on this because I'm going blind.
Okay. Do you think that the West in general and even the church in particular has imbibed? Marxist ideology when it comes to thinking of race namely that it divides people into different groups Marked almost exclusively by their race and then seeks to pit them against each other for their own benefit.
For example, it seems that people on the left want to identify those with darker pigment of skin only as black almost to the point where their ontological identity is black rather than image bearer of God and It seems they do so to stoke a grievance culture for their own political purposes.
If this is indeed Marxist thinking why is it so destructive to unity among fellow human beings? And how do we confront it with the truth of God's Word?
Well, you know, I'm not sure what it's totally Marxist or not. But I will say that one of the difficult things I have when I teach culture race in church is dealing with the history of America and. And and the reason being is that that I think was 1662 we passed a law that one drop of sunblood makes a person black.
When you think about it, you say well the president United States. His mother is white. Well, how come he's black? Well, we have created that designation and it really to protect the purity of those folks who had lower rights.
Less rights in our country. Smith and a random so I when we go through our history there is definite That type of denying people rights and things. By putting them in a so-called lower clay lower class.
Even if their family and biological tree defied that. Now you said how do we fight it? What I love to talk about by the way is grace relations not race relations. Because race it always seems to be dim enough that division that talk about us.
We were related to make brothers and sisters in Christ and the grace of God is Deep enough to come and give us hope about the future. And I really believe that the churl up and the fact well.
Guess what Jerry not only did you win all those other things that you won before including two books by my co-host Charlie Liebert and. A new and new American Standard Bible. A new new American Standard Bible.
Two news in a row there. Not only did you win all of that, but you've also won for your question the book by our guest Dr. Charles Ware. One race one blood that he co-authored with Ken Ham. Compliments of our friends at master books and.
Also that will be shipped to you. Compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV bbs .com. That CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service comm. And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings at CV bbs .com for being faithful sponsors and supporters of iron sharpens iron radio.
And. We have in fact, I'm gonna go to a break right now. It's our final break. But when we come back from the break, we have a question. From Slovenia for you, dr. Ware. In Fact, I might as well read it for you now and you can answer it after the break.
So this way you have time to mull it over. The question that we have from Joe in Slovenia is please ask dr. Ware to describe for us his short list of specific and practical things. That we as individual believers and churches should do to overcome racial barriers.
Stereotypes and divisions in the church. What steps should I take to get to know fellowship with and worship with believers of other races? With which here to for I've had little to no interaction. Thank you for all your hard work for Christ and his church.
Well, you can answer that when we come back from our final break. Dr. Ware. And anybody else who'd like to join us. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at Comcast net. Chris Arnzen at Comcast net. Don't go away.
We will be right back after these messages with dr. Charles Ware and Charlie Liebert on one blood one race. I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens. Iron radio. And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference.
He and I are going to. Hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched at TV and Occasional guest on Chris's show. Think I think that's what it's called. Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta My new hometown.
It is going to be a bang-up conference called the g3 Conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Votie Baucom Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people.
We hope to see you there. Learn more at g3 conference .com. G3 conference .com.
Thanks Todd, I think. See you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth.
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We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist confession of faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do Than how men view these things.
That's not the best recipe for popularity. But since that wasn't the Apostles priority it must not be ours either. We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnz and if you just tuned us in our guests for the following half hour and The last half hour is Dr. Charles where he was supposed to be on for the full two hours, but there was some miscommunication that we had.
So we're definitely gonna have to have dr. We're back on the program at some point very soon, but we are discussing his book one race one blood that he co-authored with Ken Ham and The subtitle of this book is a biblical answer to racism and before the break I asked the question from a listener in Slovenia.
Joe in Slovenia. Please ask dr Where to describe for us his short list of specific and practical things that we as individual believers and churches should do to overcome racial barriers stereotypes and divisions in the church.
What steps should I take to get to know fellowship with and worship with believers of other races? With which heretofore I have had little to no interaction.
That is a super question Joe appreciate that type of question. That's where I like to live. What are some answers going forward and that's why I like to talk about grace relations. I would recommend to you get the book one race one blood and and and and the whole book is good and even that chapter Would be helpful, but here's some things.
I think Christians need to do number one. We need to pray and Ask God for his love and enlightenment. Number two, we need to study what the scriptures have to say about our unity in Christ. Ephesians 2 3 4 would be great chapters to John 13 34 35 view of this whole thing down in your own heart and mind.
And then I think we need to really search on hearts. A lot of us say that we're not prejudiced. But when we get right down into it human nature is what it is. Envy jealousy we struggle with so we need to get honest before God and then it we need to intentionally Learn of other cultures a lot of what you hear in the media.
Misrepresents people of other cultures even in evangelism. Paul said in first Corinthians chapter 9 He became all things to all men in order that he might win some. Basically what he's saying he had to learn another culture so that he could learn and we need to really seek after wisdom.
And it's easy to bind to stereotypes and for really getting wise understanding where people are coming from in their profession and their heroes and their villains and all of that and. Then come to the one that they have grown up in and the one they're attending now and they have to take notes.
What is different about that and they need to distinguish and they and see can they by the love of Christ? Seek to give up some of their rights as you can count others and and that type of Humility and they really think you love them and really think you care about them.
I want to get your reaction to.
Something that I did back in the 1990s. Actually, it was probably actually going back to the 1980s I was a member of a church that was a Predominantly white church. I think there was one black couple in the church and We were located geographically in an area of Amityville where my co-host and I were both Born and raised and in the area that I our church was in my church that I was a member of.
The area that the church was in it was in the northern part of that town which is Probably 95 to 99 percent black in its population and I remember saying to the pastors of our church, you know, this is really a bad reflection on us as a church if we are 99 White in our congregation and we live right in the heart of a black community.
It's really showing that we're not reaching out To our neighbors the way that we should be with the gospel and I said Why don't we? Get dr. Robert J. Cameron who is somebody that I became familiar with through a Christian radio station.
He was a conservative Bible-believing black preacher who shared nearly identically the doctrinal standards of the congregation that I was a member of and There were people in the church that were familiar with him through the radio dr Cameron since became a very dear friend of my late wife and myself and and dr. Cameron also went home to Glory with Christ just a few years ago.
But I said, why don't we get him to be a speaker at the church? We'll have a conference and I will I will plaster Flyers and posters all over this community with a photograph of dr. Cameron and so people will see that this is not some kind of a Purposefully all-white church that wishes to remain that way.
And sure enough a lot of black neighbors to the church came to this conference and I think Somewhere between three and five families remained there and became members. Now some people might say that that was using tokenism as some kind of a Pragmatic way of doing that, but I don't think so because dr. Cameron believed what we believe.
We weren't just we weren't solely using him because he was a black man. We were using him because he was a brilliant Man who agreed with us in theology and was a powerful preacher and an excellent communicator of truth so do you think that would be a Way that a church could could consider doing something like To reach out to the people of other races that may be in their midst and perhaps even invite you To speak at a conference at their congregation.
Oh, yeah.
I you know in our class no contact no impact make contact and and. Go visit people in the community have speakers. We say a fight if you can get speaking in the pulpit or even churches to churches. Predominantly we got new students here.
One of them is passing a multicultural church. The other one is pastoring. I think basically a heavily black church. So one of the students in our class in January and all our churches came together. I met the brothers and sisters that was so warm to me.
It was a black lady talking about white. So so the thing of it is if there's no contact, there's no impact and and we have to. It's sometimes it's fearful, but we have to take those steps. Jesus came from heaven to become one of us that he might die for us that he might save us and.
And and his love should motivate us to try to make context and I like what you're saying. Sometimes we think it's got to be huge and change everybody overnight. But I tell him Paul said in evangelism.
He became all things all men that he might win some. We won't win all and we need that context. I think I encourage all those type of things that we can do for the cause of Christ. Yes, and I think that I think that.
Tokenism would be a wrong way if someone were to choose a black preacher or on in the reverse if a black Congregation or our church heavily populated or predominantly or exclusively populated by black members.
Wanted to reach out to the white community just to choose a man to speak there because he was white. Irregardless of what his beliefs were would be ridiculous. That's why I emphasized that. Dr. Cameron when we had him speak was very much in agreement with us on the majority of theology and so on.
And by the way, I think I forgot to mention to Joe in Slovenia. You have also won a free copy of one race one blood by our guest. Dr Charles Ware and Ken Ham. And we thank you Joe for giving us an American address to ship that to to.
To prevent the very high overseas shipping costs that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service would be faced with when they ship that out to you. And we thank CVB BS comm again for shipping out all of our winners their free books.
And we also thank master book.
For.
Providing the free copies of this book for us to give away. Mm-hmm. One thing I want to say that. That's I have to be careful how I say it because people are very sensitive these days and Accuse folks of being racist or or being insensitive or what-have-you for the slightest.
Misstep in the way you speak, but do you think that it is really? Unproductive and in fact in some ways is is Racism in a different package if people really go overboard. Tiptoeing around the tulips if you will.
When they are speaking in the presence of or speaking to their brothers and sisters in Christ with a different skin color where sometimes it seems that that those who are liberal and even sometimes those who are Black Christian brothers and sisters.
They want us it seems at times to treat them as if they are little children. To not use any kind of terminology that may hurt their feelings or something. Do you understand where I'm coming from? Dr. Ware?
I don't know if I'm making myself clear, but to me that even seems Racism, it seems like racism in a different package if we have to go overboard speaking to our own brothers and sisters in Christ. Differently according to their skin color because we were out of fear of hurting their feelings in some way.
Well, yeah, I that's what I was talking about earlier. Why I put people racism they hardly have a conversation even president. He's on a university somewhere Few years back and he was telling me. Hey, this is a university.
You can't be upset. You're at a university. This is a place of ideas. You don't have to be everything. That's one of one of the things I say about doesn't mean you have to Agree, but you live and and you can speak your views and learn from one another in fact.
One of the keys to isolation or any because if you can't disagree and resolve disagreements your marriage won't last. Your relationships on the job won't last. You're offended by everything. In fact, I tell people out Christ is my model and he hung on the cross and said father forgive them.
They know not what they do. So I want to be more like him than anybody else and and I can I remember speaking on this subject in a church and. A guy waited to get up to greet men and and he probably ate.
I'm about six to he wait.
Check to make sure he didn't steal your wallet when he does.
That's a great story.
Yes, amen. That's the grace of God. Yes. Why you may even recall seeing this on television yourself. Dr. Ware when a former member of the Klan was on trial for being a part of a group of Klansmen who murdered a young black man and one of these murderers who was on the stand.
Who was found guilty? Was begging the black mother who was was present in the courtroom for forgiveness and He said if there was a way that I could you know Turn back time and somehow do something differently.
I would and I really I'm begging you to forgive me because this was a wicked thing that I did. I don't I don't know verbatim what the man said because I don't have a transcript in front of me. But it was something like that.
If I could become your son I would you know that kind of a thing and the Woman there said to the Klansman. I have already forgiven you if Jesus Christ has forgiven me. I must forgive you. And that was a powerful moment in a courtroom.
Just to witness that on television.
That's great. And that's what we saw in Charleston, you know with Dylan Ruiz. I know people that the power of the grace of God as Christians. We need to be modeling that before watching world.
We have Harrison and Mechanics Berg Pennsylvania who wants to know. I Am furious every time I see liberals. Try to equate one's skin color or ethnic origin or nationality with being a homosexual.
It really.
Infuriates me to Be without words. I was wondering what your guests response to this is. It seems that the homosexual activist community is Jumping on the bandwagon of genuine civil rights activists that have paved the way for legal unity of the races in this country and This is an entirely different thing than one's race Ethnicity or national origin it is behavior and it is a damning behavior.
God never damned anyone because of their skin color. If you could comment on Harrison Mechanics Berg's question slash comment.
Great question in the book. I actually had an appendix put in the book because every time I speak about the subject with that and that appendix is called Hijacking is that we want to show competitive price for anyone.
And and as as was stated recently homo is sinful behavior if acted upon and it can be changed. I can't change the color of my skin and and and and. And and actually the civil rights.
Law.
Had immutable part of the description of this is immutable traits something you can't change. So yes. About our unity across So-called racial eckard will also and it's a Christian. We cannot give up on those moral lines.
We have to hold of those at the same time showing compassion because homosexuals and they're like fornicators or anybody else they need they need salvation through Christ. But but I definitely do not blur those lines.
The word right and not only could you not?
Change the color of your skin. There's no reason why you should even want to. Whereas, you know being involved in a sinful lifestyle like homosexuality one must want to and repent of it if they if they desire to have eternal life and.
Well, thank you Harrison and mechanics Bergen you have also won a free copy of one race one blood a biblical answer to racism by our guest a Charles Ware and Ken Ham. Thank you for joining us on the air with an excellent question like that.
And I already know since we only have about six minutes left that I definitely want dr Ware back on the program very soon. So when we go off the air dr Ware if you don't mind hanging on the phone a couple of minutes I'd like to schedule you for an interview another interview when we go off the air if that's all right with you.
Yep love to do it. Well right now I would like you to surmise in Five minutes or so what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air in regard to this topic we've been discussing.
Well, I think it's summed up and like the words I like to use grace relations I like to put in the hearts and minds of the listeners to reach any sinner. Forgive them of their sins. Accept them into the family of God and then the Word of God with God life and our interpersonal life.
Within the body of Christ in the world at large. You know so much in this it's like somebody's got a win. Somebody's got to lose. I'm better than you you're worse than I am. What a grace of God says. No, we're all sinners.
I tell people there's enough sin to go around for everybody go to hell and his grace. We're saved to the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That love Should make me secure enough that I don't have to fight for other people or win over on them to make myself feel significant.
I'm significant because I'm indwelt by the Spirit of God and Yield it to the Spirit of God that he might produce the love of God in me for others. And I should take the initiative. One of the things that disturbs me a lot is what I call the blame-and-shame game and then shaming one another.
Rather than asking God. How can we possibly? Unite around the Word of God and submission the kingdom of God. Constellation say but a mutual edification of believers and the united evangelization of those who are lost and.
And if we can get that into our hearts and begin to ask these dream and grace relations. I dream and it should be biblical. So it should be one race one blood. But having that dream so what's the reality is the next the RS reality?
What's the reality in your context your church your community. Study that out see what then E is? What are you dream? What are you expecting then the AS for applications within your context because. And then the M is for measurables.
What are you gonna do in 30 days or 60 days? So that's a thing I like to use and love to talk about it more in depth. Praise God.
Dr. Ware, I really appreciate you coming back on. Well, should I say coming on for the first time on the program and I ask of your forgiveness for any of my own parts in the confusion that resulted. Well, I really appreciate you being on the program.
I know that the The Crossroads Bible College where you are president. Their website is Crossroads edu Crossroads edu. If anybody wants to purchase a copy of one race one blood that did not Win a free one today.
Or perhaps even some of you who won a free copy want to buy some For your family friends and loved ones or neighbors or give them out to strangers just make use of them for God's glory. You can get that through CV BBS comm which is Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service a sponsor of iron sharpens iron CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service.
Calm and. Is there any other contact information that you would like to provide for you personally? Do you have your own website a blog or anything like that that you'd like to promote?
Now they can get it all on Crossroads. Edu and I would like to say the course Culture race in the church can be taken online if somebody wanted to dig into some of these areas a little deeper Historically biblically and bring it up to today.
I'd encourage them to take that course.
And where can they take that course? Where do they find that?
Crossroads a they go to cross. Okay. I did you WWE crossroads study. Do you culture race in the church? Be the and.
You can also find out more of the other books that master books publishes at master books calm. Master books calm. We thank the folks at master books for Providing us with the free copies that we've been giving away.
And my co-host doctor not doctor, but my friend Charlie Liebert, well, you have one website. That is six day creation. Calm. Anything else?
Yeah, I have another website where my two books that are published so far are offered. It's called your Christian answers calm. Your Christian answers calm. There'll be a new website for the Darwin book that I'm working on publishing now.
Great.
Well, don't forget folks about the upcoming debate between Evangelical Protestant theologian dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary and Roman Catholic theologian Robert St. Genesis of Catholic apologetics International Friday the 13th of January at the Carlisle theater.
For more information Go to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. They just reactivated my account while we were on the air. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com or Chris Arnzen at Comcast net. I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.
We look forward to hearing from you and your questions tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio.