December 29, 2016 Show with Charles Ware on “One Race, One Blood: A Biblical Answer to Racism”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arns in your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all.

Happy Thursday on this 29th day of December 2016 and Before I even introduce my guests for today who hasn't called in yet. He may not be my guest today after all. But before I introduce him and the topic and my co-host who's in studio with me Charlie Liebert of six-day creation Comm I want to make a couple of announcements.

I want to remind you that the iron sharpens iron pastors luncheon is Now just a couple of weeks away. It is Thursday January 12th 11 a .m To 2 p .m. At the gorgeous Carlisle vault. That's vias and victory a you LT a vault Just like a bank safe.

It is called the Carlisle vault because it's a historic bank going back to the early 20th century that was transformed into a catering hall a very beautiful one at that and the Door of the vault is still in there.

In fact now it's a doorway going between two separate rooms in the catering hall. But that that luncheon which is absolutely free of charge is Going to be held Thursday, January 12th 11 a .m. To 2 p .m.

And any man in the ministry whether he is a pastor an elder a deacon? Perhaps you run a Parachurch organization something like that. You are invited to attend this event absolutely free and you'll be getting a sumptuous gourmet meal.

But free you'll be getting probably between 30 and 40 Brand-new books donated by Christian publishers major Christian publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom You'll be getting a Wonderful message.

I'm sure I'm guessing it will be wonderful. It hasn't happened yet. But I have no doubt that it will be wonderful. The message by dr Tony Costa who is our keynote speaker? Dr. Tony Costa who is professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Canada and so if you would like to attend that free luncheon or if you know somebody who you think would our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

I'm sorry. I'm giving you the wrong Email address, but I'm gonna answer my phone right now. This may be my guest Chris Arnzen. Yes, alrighty, well, I'm live on the air now, so Okay, that's great, thank you.

Well, that was my.

My.

Alleged guests Publisher calling me saying that they're trying their best to get a hold of him. So the beauty and wonder and joy of live radio.

So.

If you'd like to go to that luncheon or if you know somebody who would like to attend that luncheon you would email pastors luncheon Carlyle at gmail .com pastors luncheon Carlyle at gmail .com or Chris Arnzen at comcast .net.

Chris ar n z en at comcast.

Net and.

Also the next night this is open to everyone every man woman and child. No matter what status in life you are in no matter What religion you may adhere to or even if you adhere to none? Although I think there is a very good argument that atheism is a religion, but that's not the topic for today.

So I don't have time to go into that. But no matter who you are you can attend the iron sharpens iron great debate. That is being held at the Carlyle theater in Carlyle, Pennsylvania. This is going to be held Friday the 13th the night after the luncheon Friday the 13th of January at 7 p .m. At the historic Carlyle theater another historic building that dates back to the early 20th century.

A theater that who knows what kind of movies that that theater.

Had.

Showing like you could only imagine the the movies that we all remember that have gone down in history as cinematic Masterpieces like gone with the wind and other things like that. Well, anyway, that theater has been restored to its original Beauty and grandeur and we are having our debate on the theme Mary sinless Queen of Heaven or sinner saved by grace and The competitors if you will the two debaters in that Involved in that event are the aforementioned.

Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary and He is going to be facing another friend of mine, although I disagree with him radically on many things involving religion. And this is one of them my friend Robertson Janice who is founder of Catholic apologetics international will be Defending Mary as a sinless Queen of Heaven at that debate and tickets are five dollars for the debate unlike the luncheon which was free, which will be free the The debate requires a five dollar ticket purchase and you can purchase them at the door.

I would advise you get there early because you never know how many people are going to arrive theater seats 900 and We have had over a thousand people show up at my past debates in New York. So that will be a good problem to have here in Carlisle.

But I have no idea how many people will show up at this one since it's my first Carlisle, Pennsylvania debate that I am hosting. You can also get those tickets in advance at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, that's C V as in victory BBS for Bible Book Service dot-com CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service comm you can contact them and they are selling tickets and We look forward to as many of you as possible.

We listen to iron sharpens iron showing up at this debate. I already know That we have people who are traveling from as far away as Virginia, New York Maryland and Washington DC and we're thrilled about that, so I hope many more of you come and I would love it if Roman Catholics show up in droves.

I want Roman Catholics there more than anybody because it's a sad situation, but the Major Roman Catholic radio station here in this area in the Cumberland County area. The owner of the station very nice lady Wanted to promote this debate but her general manager and other people involved with the station somehow Reversed the decision to promote it so that radio station that Catholic radio station will not be promoting the debate and I am very saddened by that because This is always a fascinating Event and I think people on both sides of this debate may even learn a lot from this experience.

So perhaps if you you who are listening could pray that the radio station Reverses its decision again, but this time for the better that they that they go back to the owners decision to promote the event.

Well.

As I said before we are supposed to be having a guest today that I have no idea if he is going to be joining Us today, but if he doesn't that's okay because I have a knowledgeable co-host with me that I can speak with.

We are waiting for a call from Charlie Ware author of one race one blood a biblical answer to racism and He co-authored that book with Ken Ham. Many of our listeners readily recognize that name. Ken Ham world-renowned creationist advocate young earth creationist advocate and Charles Ware is president of Crossroads Bible College and Ken Ham is president of answers in Genesis.

Well, Charles is supposed to be on the program today and as you heard during my introductions I got a phone call from his publisher on my cell phone and We are not 100 sure he's going to be joining us because they cannot locate him so Even if he doesn't arrive, I know that God has reasons for everything.

That's one of the see this is one of the major blessings about being a Calvinist. Because you know that all things work together for the good for those who love God and are the cold according to his purpose and I don't even understand really how an Arminian can can take Peace and and joy in those texts somebody who doesn't believe God is in in total control over everything.

But I believe that and so does my co-host and his name is Charlie Liebert. Yeah, Chris. Hello. I.

Do want to say something Chris before you go on. About the debate. Okay, because that there's an important aspect of this. I think I want the listeners to hear. Debates are staged for a particular reason.

The reason is simply to promote understanding between two different viewpoints. When I teach my business law class, that's the purpose of my debates and I pick always very Controversial topics for that reason like gun control or abortion, but but the whole purpose of the debate is to promote understanding.

So we can understand the Catholic viewpoint. We don't agree with it. We probably never will but we can understand it better and they can understand our viewpoint better and out of that if we know That God is sovereign then in fact people may be saved as a result because they come to see the truth.

Right and what I have said to Catholics and others because there are a lot of evangelicals Who are very squeamish about this kind of a thing. They really don't want to Partake in anything like this. They think it's mean-spirited.

They think sometimes even that it is an exercise in hate and bigotry but the thing is as I've repeated to many of these people on both sides of the Tiber River whether they're Catholic and or Protestant or Neither who oppose this?

Event or these events these debates. I have said that Number one it is one of the highest acts of love that you could demonstrate To warn someone if you believe they are believing or doing something that is bringing them grave danger, whether spiritually mentally or physically and this is certainly a religiously Dangerous area because if the Roman Catholics are right Those who are rejecting the Mary that they venerate are In serious trouble.

They are in serious sin if that is the case and if we are right if the evangelicals the Bible believing Christians as We typically will call ourselves if we are right that Mary Was although she had a very unique role in history and was chosen by God to bear His son Jesus Christ God in the flesh That that she was chosen to carry him and give birth to him.

Other than that she is just a sinner saved by grace like every other Christian and The Bible doesn't even really say all that much about her and Not that is not to denigrate her or take away from her But if the the Bible believing Protestants are right about Mary Then the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox and everyone else who venerates her they are Committing the sin of idolatry, which is a very dangerous sin to be involved in.

It's a it's a sin that In some cases in the scriptures God especially when you're referring to the Old Covenant people were struck dead by God for worshiping in an Unbiblical manner in a manner that he did not prescribe or command and When you add veneration of Mary and the Saints and their relics and images into the mix you are.

Just.

Stripping Jesus Christ of the glory that is due only to him. You are watering down What he did on the cross. You are really denying his exclusiveness and.

His.

Role his sole role as Redeemer in the gospel plan that Was ordained by God himself. So this is a an area that either side should be interested in What they believe the truth to be publicly declared in the presence of those who reject what they view as truth and These are not mean-spirited although You know, they can be stern.

Events, this is not mr. Rogers Having somebody in from his neighborhood in the living room to have coffee or should I say cookies and milk? This is you know, a very serious thing being discussed and debated by two serious men who take their faith seriously and take What they believe true worship to be.

They take that seriously and So this is not going to be two ecumenists blowing kisses to each other from across the room. It can be stern and being Fallible human beings being sinners. It may get more stern than I would be comfortable with at times but that that should not prevent us from doing things like this and It's a very sad day when people think it is a superior.

Model.

To Express your love for someone who disagrees with you by sweeping things under the rug. It's as if they're saying Let's just forget about that. You know, I don't want to make somebody uncomfortable.

Well.

Jesus Christ didn't behave that way the Apostle Paul didn't behave that way and in fact whenever these ecumenists get an uproar about these debates What they are really saying is that they are nicer than the Apostle Paul.

Because if you remember when he wrote his letter to the church in Galatia about the Judaizers In our day and age in the 21st century if the Apostle Paul was alive most Evangelical leaders I am certain Would rebuke the Apostle Paul for exposing the Judaizers as being guilty of damnable sin and That's what he did.

He said they should be accursed and the only thing that we know of that the Judaizers Believed that Paul did not believe is That Gentiles who became Christians had to be circumcised. That's the only thing that we know for certain that this group disagreed with When it came to the gospel and when it came to the gospel that Paul preached and yet that one thing got Paul filled with righteous indignation and he condemned the Judaizers as preaching a false gospel, which is no gospel at all and So, I don't know why people who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible both Roman Catholics and Evangelical Protestants are supposed to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.

I don't know why we're supposed to be nicer than the Apostle Paul when it comes to an issue like this, but I do thank you for bringing that up Charlie and Well, I want to get to know something about you.

It may be it may very well be that you are my sole guest today and that's fine with me. Okay, that's fine. But I want to hear something. I know that you are Founder of a six-day creation .com but before we even get into that and before we even get into the fact that you are an Orthodox Presbyterian tell us something about your childhood the religion of your upbringing if any.

Okay, and what providential things came about in your life that drew you to Christ? Yes.

Let me start to kind of start at the beginning. I grew up in a small town on an island called Amityville and so did I. That's that's always funny. We both graduated from the same high school, but when I went that when I went to.

When I was a child growing up with my parents. They took us to church every Sunday at the local Methodist Church, and I was there as a child taught. Was that Simpson? Oh, no, we were at first. Okay on 110 110, right?

And then and then later on we went to Simpson. But but we were we were at the that was the prime church in town. That was the big one and you and interestingly enough.

Those Methodist churches, even though they're liberal when I was doing the debates on Long Island, they would promote them really. Well, at least they would Graciously accept my flyers and told me that they hung them up and that kind of thing.

Well, we went to the church pretty much every Sunday with my parents and I remember about 16 I I wasn't religious as a child, but about 16 years old I was sitting in the in the congregation one Sunday morning and the pastor was preaching Methodists take a very strong stand against alcohol and He was preaching a sermon about that.

But the evil of drinking. Really. Because today I wouldn't I don't think that they had the old Wesleyan.

I don't think I don't think they do either anymore. But but they did then certainly and and and I sat there as a 16 year old and I knew the people around me. Particularly some of the ones that I that I knew directly from my parents had been to the Yacht Club opening the night before.

With the bins copious amounts of liquor consumed by a large number of people. So I thought as a 16 year old I dropped out. Although I continued to go to church I pretty much shut down anything the church ever had to say to me by the time I was in my Late teens early 20s.

I had become a park or atheist. Couple things couple things influenced me for that. Well, the first one was I had a friend there were actually six of us that grew up together on Long Island and in high school in that day and One of them was Paul.

Paul. Paul and I stayed in town after everyone else graduated in 1959 and we stayed in town and in I was a volunteer fireman. My Sunday mornings were now spent playing pinochle rather than going to church and I was in the In the I went down to the firehouse on Sunday morning and the sergeant behind the desk Eddie Baxter said to me Charlie You know what happened last night?

I said no. Well Paul's girlfriend Dorothy at 18 years old died of cerebral hemorrhage. He never recovered. He became an alcoholic and eventually took his own life. And I said how can how can they be a God that that would allow that kind of thing to happen.

So by the time I was in my 20s in college, I'd pretty much become a hardcore atheist. Now I married a Catholic girl and we had two children and moved to Greensboro, North Carolina. When we were in New Jersey, we were enjoying Family on every on the weekends her big kept big Italian Catholic family was a great place to spend Sunday.

So we did that a lot and we got to Greensboro and there was nothing going on on Sunday. And she decided to go because some friends in the neighborhood asked her to go to a Episcopal church she decided to go there and left me home and with two children.

Well, that didn't last long. I didn't manage two children. Well, okay, particularly with Some of my my characteristics so I decided to go to church too. So we went to Episcopal Church in that church. They were Nothing threatening was ever said from the pulpit there there was a lot of stories about Three ways to make French bread and all kinds of different sermons that didn't really see.

That's what if you ever talk if you ever talk to my wife about but that those years She'll she'll mention that three ways to make French bread.

But by the way, don't let me forget to bring up Eddie Baxter again when you continue your story. Okay, okay.

We.

So.

There were three families in this church whose lives were different very different and I didn't understand why but their lives were different and They asked us to join a Bible study with them. Now during this time after you moved to North Carolina I was.

Our marriage was in trouble. My wife and I were having good conflict to the point where we actually discussed divorce at one point I was addicted to pornography and I also was having a relatively strong drinking problem.

All those things were coming apart. I was promoted at work. I got a new job with great prospects for working for a man. I hated. Everything seemed to be coming apart and they advised the Bible study. We went for 16 weeks.

Things seemed to improve at home but then the study was over and we went back and about six months later Frank Grove invited me to Go to a retreat weekend in Asheville, North Carolina. Now in Asheville, we went to the retreat weekend on it started on Thursday night.

Thursday night they walked us through the Catholic tradition because this was the Episcopal retreat of the Stations of the Cross. We walked through that and then we took a vow of silence and Sun Friday Friday morning.

We got up out of bed had our breakfast and then the man came out and gave a talk. And in that talk, he has three questions. What's your purpose in life? What does it mean? And where you going? I Realized he couldn't answer those questions.

I mean, I yeah, I had a wife two kids a house a car. I had all that stuff, but I knew that wasn't the answer. I knew that wasn't the answer. So I began to struggle with that question. I wrestled with those questions all weekend.

Until Saturday night Saturday night I went at the chapel by myself alone about 1130 at night and I just got down as a typical Episcopal wouldn't kneel at the kneeler and just kind of sat there for a minute and Some things flashed back in my mind two things flashed back.

First was was Paul's death Paul's Suicide and then second thing was we used to spend time as students when I was going to my bachelors at night drinking beer in front of TV and watching Billy Graham and some of those things.

Some of those some of those things he said came back. The second thing that came back was I had a friend Frank who had talked to me 15 years before when I was working on my master's and Had given me testimony and Frank simply told me the story of his life.

He married his high school sweetheart started a business in Amityville was very successful. Everything seemed to go well, and then one day he's actually living in the next town over his house burned down.

And his wife and children died in the fire. Hmm he lost everything. And as a result became an alcoholic eventually lost his home is he became homeless. He just he just completely fell apart, and then he looked across the table at me and said this to me.

He said Charlie. That all happened for a reason and the reason is because that's how I came to know Jesus Christ. Now this is 15 years before I would even even come to Christ. But he planted the seed who's faithful to plant the seed and as a result of that.

So thinking about those things I said in my heart God if you're real and I wasn't really sure he was. You can have my life because it's totally messed up and it was. And of course he took it. I came back to Greensboro a new creature not really understanding what had happened to me.

Okay, you're just knowing that God had changed me somehow in fact when I walked in the den my wife recognized that and I my friend that invited me to come said Charlie pick up the Bible read the Gospel of John.

I've been reading the Bible for years. But when a person reads it that doesn't believe they're in the dark. They're reading with the lights off. It really doesn't make any sense and now suddenly the lights are on.

Well, I got to John chapter 3. The kind counter with Nicodemus and at 2 a .m. I called Frank and said Frank Have I been born again? And Frank said Charlie, I believe you have and that was the beginning.

God would heal our marriage. God would Do a whole massive thing a bunch of things, but that's how I came to know Christ through that retreat weekend. Terry would go my wife would go. About three months later and she too would come to Christ.

Her because of her Catholic background as she walked through the stations of the cross she basically heard in her mind God say to her I died because of your sin not because of the old sins of the world but because of your particular sin and that brought her to Christ and when we when I counted her at the weekend We looked across through with each other and our eyes met and we knew she knew I knew that she knew what I knew.

That we both have become new believers. So that's my story Chris.

Yeah, some reason I I'm getting some kind of a flashback from an Abbott and Costello Skip, you know that I know that you know. Exactly. Yes, I don't know if it's Evan Costello, but it's something. Yes.

It's one of the comedian sets, right? But yeah, you mentioned Eddie Baxter. Do you know if Eddie Baxter had sons named Cliff and Mark? I believe so because Mark is a good friend of mine. He's a born-again believer has been has been for many years he's theologically reformed also and He is now.

He and his wife Jackie are now attending Community Baptist Church in Riverhead Long Island, New York pastored by my very good friend pastor Josh Fryman and Cliff Baxter sadly Is no longer with us don't know what his faith was but He Passed away about I don't know seven or eight years ago perhaps even longer than that Eddie was.

A very interesting guy. I'll give you one of the little piece of trivia and we will go further on this. We will go further on this. But Eddie was the first one on the scene at the murders in the Amityville House of Horror.

Really? Yes, he was and he would say later on in the years. But yeah post that he would say. I could never get those images out of my mind. Yeah, he must have actually been with.

My friend or pastor Rich Jensen, he's a pastor now, but he was a homicide detective.

Suffolk County Police Department because he was among those first people on the scene. Yeah. Yeah, and he was one of the first on the scene.

Well, how did you? Well, actually we're gonna go to a break right now before I go into the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. And what drew you to that denomination. And if anybody would like to ask Charlie Liebert not Charlie where.

Charlie Liebert my co-host a question and let me let me could comment on that if the listeners have any questions. Anywhere Christian apologetics, I'll be glad to go. Okay. All right, great.

It doesn't have to be just in the realm of creation versus evolution or young earth versus old earth or anything like that. It could be beyond that scope. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at comcast .net.

Chris Arnzen at comcast .net. We already have a first-time listener who has a question for Charlie where? But maybe you could answer it anyway. You could also email us at iron sharpens iron radio at gmail .com.

Iron sharpens iron radio gmail .com. And please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Don't go away. We're gonna be right back with my co-host Charlie we're.

Charlie Liebert.

Yes, Charlie. Liebert of six day creation calm and maybe Charlie where we'll be joining us too. So don't go away. We'll be right back. God willing.

I.

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Much more than faith finances and generosity. That's the private story.

I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio. And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference. He and I are going to.

Hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched a TV and occasional guest on Chris's show.

I.

Think I think that's what it's called. Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta. My new hometown. It is going to be a bang-up conference called the g3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie back from Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there. Learn more at g3 conference .com g3 conference dot-com.

Thanks, Todd, I think. See you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth.

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant. It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together.

Hi. I'm pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can. Be call in Brook Baptist at five one six five nine nine nine four zero two.

That's five one six five nine nine nine four zero two or visit Linbrook Baptist org. That's Linbrook Baptist org. Welcome back. This is Chris Orns.

And if you just tuned us in our guest today, it looks like a man went from being my co-host to my guest today Charlie Liebert founder of six day creation calm and We possibly may be joined by Charles Ware.

Dr. Charles Ware was supposed to be on the show today and somehow completely slipped his mind. I'm assuming He is author of a book that we were going to discuss one race one blood a biblical answer to racism.

But we don't know if dr. Ware is going to be joining us. So we are going to continue our discussion discussion with Charles Liebert and we are Taking our taking emails at Chris Ornson at comcast .net my other Primary gmail account is still frozen by Google for going over their quota.

I'm amazed at how long they're dragging this out to Reactivate my email address with them. So Chris Ornson at comcast .net you can you can use for questions and you can also use iron sharpens iron Radio at gmail .com.

That's iron sharpens iron radio at gmail .com and If you could I want to find out since you are an Orthodox Presbyterian Currently attending the Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania and you were An Orthodox Presbyterian in North Carolina prior to coming here.

So if you could tell us about.

This is a this is a little bit longer story because I have. My wife and I came to Christ in the sixth in 77 and we moved almost immediately Greenville, South Carolina and when we were down there, we found a church by the name of Mitchell Road Presbyterian Church, which was then our PCES later joined the PCA and Dr. Cross was the pastor at the time.

Dr. Thomas Cross and dr. Cross and John Buzwell jr. Were the two pastors and After we got there and we went in the first Sunday and I'll it possibly I could tell you a story about how we how we Got there, but that's not important right now that we got there the first Sunday my wife and I walked in a pastor had a What was called a visitors class went in there and realized this is where the Lord wanted us.

So we were there during that during that two and a half years I was actually trained and ordained as a deacon and then as an elder and sent to start a mission work in Simpsonville. Which is right south of Greenville.

We started as a small small church there. That still exists today. The founding elders were myself a render Cain's a pastor from Chattanooga and another elder by the name of John Wheeler. So we were Presbyterian from the beginning that's where that's where they got.

That's where God took us and he took us to the doctrines of grace almost immediately and I've never struggled with that Chris. That's one thing. That's interesting. A lot of people struggle with it. I've never struggled with it because it's how God dealt with me directly.

So we we came back to Greensboro, North Carolina. We bounced around with an ARP Church for over 20 years. We were in an independent church for a while and then about six years ago my wife and I decided we were gonna leave the ARP because of some issues related to Creation that has come up with the pastor that was in the church.

We were in and We visited OPC, that's Providence Presbyterian Church in Greenville, Greensboro, North Carolina and under pastor very finick and Again, the same thing happened. It took about 60 seconds.

I looked at my wife. She looked at me and said yeah, this is the right place and the question is why am I there? There are basically two two principal reasons. The first one is simply doctrine. I mean, I'm I am a strong Calvinist I believe in the five points.

I have no issues with any of them. So they they will support that and the second one is I really love that form of worship which is Semi lit semi liturgical I would call it. Okay, it's it's dialogical.

We we repeat creeds we Do responsive readings. We will say the Lord's Prayer. We'll do a catechism question as part of the worship. We'll sing and then of course, he'll be preaching and To me that's a very important part that that worship is participated that we participate in not just singing the songs.