TiL Interview- Time Travel!

Welcome to the truth in love podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight. We have a special guest interview with John Jones. Real talk with Big John. I'm Rob. That's Dan tonight. We're going to talk about time travel.

Well, maybe stick with us. We're gonna travel take a journey and our discussion is going to be time. From mr. John Jones and the pastor John Joan. His perspective. I had a conversation with with John a while back about his perspective on time Space the physical realm and I found it so interesting.

It it intrigued me. I feel like in a lot of these topics in in our Christian life We we get to a point where We just keep it simple. When it when it comes to time we we know that we are time bound us as physical Creatures were time bound and we say that God is outside of time and we kind of leave it at that.

And we don't dig any further.

I.

Guess for me personally mainly because I'm I'm not a aerospace engineer, I'm I'm not any kind of Scientist in a lab trying to study these things. But I do enjoy thinking about them and talking about them.

And and that's what the conversation was that I have with John. Dan, how you doing tonight?

I'm doing great. I'm interested to see what kind of DeLorean we're gonna hop into and.

We'll check it out. 22 seconds. It took one minute 22 seconds for a reference. On the flux capacitor or something to come out 1 .28 gigawatts or something like that. I know it's 88 miles an hour. That's right.

That's right. So, I don't know how much I know about anything in regards in regards to To any of it so much as things that kind of I don't know come out of my study of scripture. How much of a setup do you want on this brother.

Brother. Rob, what do you want from me?

How do you start wherever you want to start?

All right.

So.

God Walking with Adam and the Transcendent Nature of Christ

First time I got to thinking about this was whenever the book of Genesis says that God walked with Adam in the cool of the day and That tripped me out. I'm not a scientist. I'm not an engineer. I'm just I'm just a regular guy, but Jesus talking to the woman at the well said that God was a spirit those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

And then We see God interact with Moses. He's like nobody can see Me and live. And he hit him in the cleft of the rock and he saw his hinder parts as he passed by.

And I'm.

Continually perplexed with how Someone can see Something that is spiritual how you can walk with a spirit and. And then you there's there's piles of other things that seem perplexing to me. How is it that we have clear?

Theophanies in the Old Testament, which for means just an Old Testament Depiction or an Old Testament Appearance of Christ prior to the virgin birth in a New Testament. And you got to ask yourself. How can that be?

Right. I mean, how do you explain? Who Abraham talks to how can you explain who walked in the garden? And I think it just simply boils down to the transcendent nature of who Christ is. Is that fair. And perhaps an oversimplification of the transcendent nature of who Christ is.

And then I got to thinking about the reason that so befuddled me was because I've always looked at time as something that I'm bound by to use kind of the terminology you're using earlier and I think that that's that's where my my That's where my I guess curiosity.

Why most peaked so high. Tomorrow always follows today and that's always preceded yesterday. It doesn't make any sense. To think in terms of anything reversed because no matter how hard I try I can never go backwards.

I can never go forward. I have to wait on tomorrow to get here. I am tethered to today. Right, but Christ is not He is.

Above all and.

Transcendent of all and that's what got the old mind thinking something differently perhaps. But I really believe that all this is just in an effort to try to understand God better. Not in an effort to try to undermine any other orthodox teaching of Christ.

I'm talking about I.

Totally agree, I think I I mean I and I don't know that there are scientists. There are specialty fields that that are studying time. You know time travel is is in sci-fi space time Is in sci-fi and is in reality.

Yeah, I watched episodes where they're they make sure there's clocks that are that are set and I I I can't recall but there's. They're all yep, I can't even explain it but the relational to gravity. Yeah, so it's.

So.

Complex in.

And I think the reason is complex is because we don't have any way to actually measure time. Mm-hmm. I think that's where in lie the problem. Because if time were something that you could accurately measure.

Then you would never have two two clocks that were set to exact same places and and because of their relation to one another and their relation to Earth's gravity, they wouldn't change. One of them is in the Some like ones in Colorado I think one of them's in France or something like that and you have this two different locations one of them is so much higher in elevation than the other and You know theoretically I suppose you can make an argument that because the earth is spinning one rotation.

That anything that is above sea level it has to travel further to go around the same distance in the revolution. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. And There's that argument I suppose if you're looking at time in terms of a revolution but again, you're comparing time to something that is tangible and.

That's where I found out that humans are just so we're just so dumb that we can't Articulate the passing of time unless we hook it to something else. 24 minute 24 hours in a day 60 minutes in the hour 60 seconds.

What would that be? Without the vibrations of the quartz atoms that we use to measure series of Fluctuations known as Hertz that we count up to mean so many seconds. We're using other things how they naturally vibrate to determine what period of time Passes during that so I would say that just as sure as width is this way.

Length is this way and depth is this way time is another dimension. That is not necessarily feasible or not necessarily intuitively obvious to our five six our five senses. And therefore must be interpreted the way that depth is interpreted on the two-dimensional plane.

That's the way I think about it, and I hope this tracks I don't want to get only get carried away. But the reason that I think it's important is because when I see things like Hebrews 1 Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets in different times in different ways.

In these last days he spoken to us by his son whom he pointed error of all things through whom he made the universe. Through whom he made the universe we're talking about the Lord as we know him in Scripture.

Who is the final? Authoritative word. From God concerning all of creation and we have that text it was through him The risen Lord that God created the universe. You understand how that can become complex to think about.

Oh yeah, because. Otherwise, it's almost like saying that in order for if time is something that God is bound to then it's almost as if though God has to be born die Resurrected from the dead then go back in time and create everything.

Which would mean that there was nothing for him to be born into which is complex and absolutely abstract and nonsensical so what it means to me is that the risen Savior as we understand through Scripture to Transcend time in a way that he has the I'm gonna say ability because I don't know another word to use.

But I'm sure there's a better word to simply Show up or simply move Throughout what we know as a solid line of time that never can be changed. And that's how we see the Lord walking with Abraham with Adam With with the same Lord being before Joshua before Jericho is taken over, right?

I Think that's how these theophanies happen. These theophanies are where God has showed up After the resurrection to talk to those in the Old Testament. Which kind of puts you in the mind of some of the things Peter would say where?

After he was died and went into the earth He went and talked to those that were in Sheol or he went down in the pit. Some people would say I Don't know if that's necessarily the right way their time to put that however.

These things are difficult. Then you couple Hebrews 1 with Hebrews 4 Which says therefore While the promise remains for entering into his rest. Let us fear that none should miss it for we also received good news just as they did.

But the message that we heard did not benefit them since there were not united With those who heard it by faith for we have believed enter into the rest in keeping with what is said He's sworn his anger.

They'll not enter his rest. Obviously. This is a reference to those walking around in Israel and wilderness but then this part comes up and Yet his works have been finished since the foundation of the world for somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in this way and God rested on the seventh day from all his works and Again on that package.

He says he'll never enter into my rest. He takes the create what we were just referred to as simply the creation account and Somehow he's using that portion of creation account story to refer to salvation.

You catch that Does that not look like it shouldn't fit? Unless The thing necessary for salvation to be in place has been there since day number six. Then that tracks with how Abraham is able to be saved before the crucifixion.

Because the work necessary for salvation has effectively been done by day number six is end and simply belief in Christ is the same saving faith that we have in the New Testament. And I hope I mean, I know that sounds crazy.

And I don't know if it come out of my mouth as simple as it's going on in my mind.

Yeah, I think you're the first person I've ever heard try to flesh that those concepts out like oh I think we've we've all talked about before how You were seen as righteous. We're seen as glorified. All those things are seen as already been accomplished but but you're trying to Flesh those things out and try to grasp and understand maybe how that's working.

Yeah, I'm trying but I don't know that I got the faculties to do it. I Know that that salvation is The greatest work that I can see in Scripture that Christ has done. Speaking things into existence or things.

I don't understand. I'm just being real with you. I don't know how he does it. He's God and I'm not and he can say let it be and it just is Right baffles everybody to this day. But to make man right with God means that God has to die and Then raise himself from the dead.

Which is far harder to do apparently than simply speak the world into existence. So when he says he rested from all his works on the seventh day I think that's both important because The work of salvation being the greatest work that he ever done has accomplished.

And We never hear about the eighth day starting in all the creation account. Never We stop at day seven. So so.

Day.

Eight if you want to look at his only be looked at as celebrating the resurrection. So I think this is why there's some confusion in our in our theology with when someone saved how someone saved. Is there a difference altogether between Predestination and foreknowledge at that point.

It almost seems silly to say there is a difference when the God who saves and just just for new to use for knowledge. It's just saying for new it's From the end telling it and then the greatest complexity of the whole thing is The fact that the way Jesus refers to himself in the book of Revelation is The most unique way I've ever heard him refer to himself and if if you use Mathematics to discuss it.

He says the one who was The one who is and the one who is to come right? But he says that as if it's a statement that never changes.

So I.

Want to refer to this and I don't know how to make the English language work for me. But I want to call this like an attribute of God that we don't talk about the omni temporal nature of God. How he is simultaneously in one place all the time.

That even though for us tomorrow hasn't happened yet when we say that God is waiting for us tomorrow. Or he has our tomorrow in his hands. He's Already there as if to say tomorrow has already existed and that that's where he stands.

See, we keep thinking about the future as being something that's still being written. I propose to you that the future has already been written and The fact that we haven't made it to it yet just means that we're finite and unable to get there.

It doesn't mean that God's not I.

Found this. Several things that you said so fascinating. I mean when you said that He rested on the seventh day because his his work was finished and that includes the cross.

Yes, sir. Well what I believe you.

Well, it says in was a Revelation 13 that he was a lamb slain before the foundations of the world.

Right. Yeah, I was gonna say, you know. We can we can be so tied to the creation account that we're saying well all that's just speaking of you know creating things. But Dan pointed out that verse. That's right.

What about that verse?

Ephesians 1 for we were chosen in him before the foundations of the world for the foundation.

So we can see we keep thinking like somehow another this is all that God is reactionary. That's it's so we we demean God so much by acting as if though we he has to wait on tomorrow to get here to Make that happen.

Jesus walking on this earth Says some of the most profound things that we just skipped through whenever they lower that man born of four into the living room and he says your son your sins are forgiven get up and walk and There he says it's it which is easier to say your sins are forgiven or take up your bed and walk, right?

And these people just have a field day with him. He says Well, the Son of Man has authority to forgive sin. He could forgive sin before sin had quote-unquote been atoned for on the cross. Which is indicative to say that that power to save was present prior to the crucifixion.

So if that power to say was present prior to the crucifixion and we know that Sin was never crucified until it was crucified on that cross and that work must have already been complete. And we can say that God credited it because that's the only way finite beings can look into the future about God's faithfulness I think from God's point of view looking down This thing is wrapped up to the point to where we're already with him in the heavenlies now.

This is that too says we are seated with him presently in the heavenlies.

So that's why I believe That time as we know it is merely a facade the same way that my flesh and blood is merely just a facade. For the soul that's inside of me. Does that make sense without sounding absolutely, you know, just bats in the barrel for crazy and.

And.

Heretical of any degree.

Well, there is go ahead. It sounds a lot like.

The.

Doctrine of divine simplicity. Because what what that doctrine says is that? God is not. Is not made up of his different attributes. He he is those things.

So.

They kind of there is looking at his attributes are the way of us Describing what God actually is and and when you roll that doctrine around for a bit Theologians say that that makes God not One who who acts like we do but he's one who is pure act meaning that as he Decides to do something he doesn't he does it all at once which would mean that His creation of the world would entail all that happens in history and We're just experiencing it Through I guess the only way we can which would be time.

So he did one pure act Let there be light and from there. We witness it as You know the second day in the third day Moses and Abraham and all the rest but really it's all just one act of God. I.

Think that this thing this same truth can be used to kind of look at things that are otherwise. Our concepts that are I frankly I believe and take them on faith, but I can't really do anything more than just define them.

The Trinity for example, I believe God's a triune God Eternally existent as Father Son and Holy Ghost. I Can give you the definition that comes from Google? But if I were to tell you in my mind, I fully comprehended what that meant.

That would be a ball phase lie. Is that fair man? So but then I get to thinking about well.

So I.

Understand what little bit I understand about the world around me in three dimensions. Minus time time being one that I can't I can't wrap my mind around. I just just real with you I can't imagine more complexities than that.

I Don't have the faculties. My mind is extremely limited to width height and depth. That's it in order to accurately measure or to quantify them I have to exceed beyond the capacities and the parameters of those things.

Simply put if I want to cut a piece of lumber to fit in a house frame I have to have a tape measure that will both measure where the lumber goes and Exceed the limitations of that lumber so that I can accurately mark it.

So if I say I need 16 feet I need to have a tape measure that can both measure where that 16 feet Board goes and then go drag that thing out and it needs to at least go to 16 feet 0 .001 in order for me to draw a line so in order to Accurately quantify and measure that dimension.

I have to be able to exceed that dimension. I cannot exceed the third dimension because I'm simply held captive to it, but I can Work backwards and think about things in a two-dimensional plane and try to figure out how a third dimensional object would interact within that two-dimensional object, so if you imagine two dimensions for the sake of Of not going into what that means and in depth it would be an infinitely flat plane of length and height, but no depth.

What does it look like when a three-dimensional object comes into contact with a two-dimensional plane? For instance if you were to take a sphere and Try to interact with a sphere in a two-dimensional plane You would see an infinitely small dot if you set it on top of that plane.

And as it began to go through that plane It would grow into a circle and then shrink back into an infinitely small dot and then disappear. And if objects or people inside that two-dimensional frame tried to perceive what that third dimension was They'd be at a loss for words for they wouldn't have any way to quantify the same way I'm telling you we can't quantify time and God is exceeding beyond that.

So when the when the psalmist says so much higher than the heavens are above earth are God's ways above our ways. That's what that's the way that I think about it. God must exceed time in such a way that he can appear whenever whenever however to whomever and in an instant Without time necessarily being attached to it.

That's pretty much all I got brother. Oh.

It makes sense. I took a theoretical physics class in college and They they tried to put it this way that if you were sitting completely still The planets weren't moving you were just sitting completely still.

You wouldn't be in the same place. You were second to second because you're at you're still actively moving through time. To where you'd actually be in a different place.

Okay.

So, I mean like you said, what does that look like? How does it work? I don't know but it I guess it's a attempt to look out there to say Even if you're not moving you're moving through That fourth dimension even if you're not really Comprehending how you're doing it exactly.

It's it's one of the things that I think if Now this profits you nothing in the physical I'll just be putting on with you because you can't change a thing about it, right? Nobody can increase his height or his or anything what you are is what you consist of based on what God has given you you can't exceed beyond that unless God lets you exceed beyond that and.

So in the physical world in the physical nature I can't see is where much of this is going to be helpful to you. When me and brother Claude Ramsey were talking about it. He he cited some guy who said something to this effect.

He said when and you know, how about a quality is? He's got an author of a book that somebody wrote in an obscure passage somewhere in a cave. And I was like, how did you even think that up that quick.

The brass tacks is where this of where this relates to me in theology and where it matters to me is in the fact that if we consider Time is negligible whenever we're considering Christ. We're considering how the Holy Spirit and how God the Father interact with his creation and his people in his Word.

Completely transcendent of time in a way. Then to me it honors God more and shows more of the majesty that is God and them and obviously the mind. That is in God that created all of this stuff. So when Jesus looks at the Pharisees, it says before Abraham was what's he say after that?

I am he didn't say I was. And he refers to himself the way that the that God the Father referred to himself when he spoke to Moses which was like eternal like I just I exist and You can't escape that.

And I think that these little glimpses into The majesty that is God is some of the things that David tried to write about when he was pondering Creation sitting there watching some sheep. You know and some of the early church guys that gathered together and like look that God is so much more profound than we even thought he was that he.

He talks.

To Hagar Concerning her son. And I believe that If you removed time the way that we think about it from the equation Jesus is passing between the candlesticks. So he talks to John in Revelation at the exact same point that he's discussing things with Adam in the garden and with Abraham outside of the city that lot was in or Joshua outside of Jericho or the disciples at the last table.

Why he's Breaking bread with him that these things are existent in a place where God is it just he is. And he's steadfast and unmovable and and ever faithful and everything kind of goes. Hey wire, but he's the only point in in all of existence That is sure and stable and unchanging and holy and unwavering and unlike anything else that has ever been.

So, let me ask you two two simple questions based on things you've said. One of the benefits of homeschooling is that you're able to teach your children Math comes from God science comes from God exactly writing English Grammar comes from God you can teach you can teach your children that all these things originate come from design.

They're all come from God. Mm-hmm in what you're talking about discussing time discussing the fourth dimension. We could even say that sci-fi comes from the Christian Perspective, but what you were saying when that we're limited to the third dimension what I heard you saying was that We get the concept and we get the these things in our imagination.

Because of what we learn about God inscription is his character in nature that this these these things actually exist. We just don't know how they work. That's why we we kind of use our imagination and create that create these sci-fi things but we since we can't understand them and we can't create them that some some of these sci-fi things like Technology, you know in older sci-fi films and movies that have come to existence but when it comes to this fourth dimensional stuff and and travel and You're saying that we're it's beyond us currently totally and and some of the sci-fi stuff though.

It's a Christian perspective. Because it reflects God's character nature. We'll never be able to Figure it out and.

Do some of those things in reality. Now. You you're talking about things. I think that that time as we understand it is a force tangential to things that are spiritual.

Explain so.

There's certain things that are subtly located in the physical wit height debt 100 located in the physical because we can perceive them with physical senses and we need nothing else to perceive them.

This would fall within general revelation when I see creation I can understand the hand of God at work because I see creation It's not saying you see God's hand at work, but you see the evidence of God's hand at work.

I have a book. Therefore I know there was an author. I have a paint painting. Therefore I know there was a painter. You extrapolate this facts or these evident through the evidences that you have. So whenever I look at things like time what I'm understanding in that moment is that That is something that is not Subtly located within the physical it is tangential or near being near close to being something that is spiritual and The things that are flesh cannot perceive the things that are spirit or cannot inherit or or understand the things that are spiritual.

They might be able to be perceived. But they're only going to be able to be perceived by thing by something that is spiritual in this case I believe that what what little understanding I have gathered from this Was given by the Holy Spirit so that it would and it glorifies to me it glorifies God in this which is the work the Holy Spirit supposed to do.

Second unto drawing people to God is to show the The glory and the majesty of God and to and to lift up and exalt the name of God. So whenever I see that It just gives me a great deal of peace that that not only Was God's substitutionary atonement on the cross and his subsequent resurrection from the dead not just reactionary to Adam's sinfulness, but in fact that He was the model that Adam was fashioned after.

Now think about the implications of that.

Adam had a body.

Right. But God is a spirit. So what body type was Adam likened into the image of the resurrected Lord. Does that make sense. So if Genesis 1 26. For let us make man in our image this triune talk that we have in the beginning to me best I understand it Adam was actually molded into the likeness of the risen Lord.

That means that this thing was Wrapped up before Adam was carved out of the earth that there was already atonement made. That means that God not only knew that there was going to be a fall But that he had already made a way in preparation for redemption beyond it.

That he truly holds all things in all and he is so much greater than I could ever understand. Why can't I help but put my trust and faith in him. It gives me peace to just say, okay Lord, I don't understand it and that's fine because I know you do.

Yeah, so so when we're trying to think about these things and work them out in our three-dimensional mind or three-dimensional capacity. We talk about well Jesus was spirit until he was come and and God fashioned him a body.

Yeah, and he was born of the Virgin Mary and that's when he had a body but in God's Capability and in process, you know it all was.

Exactly.

So I got a couple questions. So is being I don't know you want to say Time relevant or bound to time something that is a part or necessary to human nature. I.

Don't know that's necessary to human nature so much as necessary to flesh. That make sense. Mm-hmm. So I assume that being bound to time is also. I got a little puppy dog around here somewhere. It's probably just he's just as bound to time as I am, but he's not human or was a human in nature.

Yeah, but what is what is that those of us with a soul Would be freed from that the moment we depart from our soul our flesh.

Okay, so when. Well, so when Jesus came to the earth and he took on a body wouldn't his flesh have been Bound to time.

So you're acting as if though that somehow God's fleshly nature is Entirely separate from his divine nature, but we would know that God is both divine and man.

Well, he is both. But if his human nature is. A true human nature like ours is then it would be bound to the same. Things that ours is no relevance of time having to eat getting tired.

I see what you're saying here now. Each time I did make the reference to the risen Savior didn't I or did I not?

But but even even then his body was risen and he was still united with his human nature glorified. Right, that's true, but it doesn't necessarily.

Change what the human nature would be. Would it. I don't think that there's any record that indicates that Christ must eat in. In the heavenlies is there that after his resurrection that he was required to sleep or eat or any of the other things that he was Doing while he was walking around for thirty three and a half years.

Or is there something I'm missing? No, there's no there's no record either either. Direction.

So are we tons are we to assume that that it's that the frailties that Christ took on whenever he? Walked around for thirty three and a half years or however many years it was that he continues to endure those even in eternity.

I wouldn't say that he would continue to to endure it because he's been glorified but that's why I was wondering if if if being bound to time is something that is is Part of the human nature then that would be something that he is still bound to.

I.

Suppose.

Whether it's glorified or not. It'd still be part of the human nature.

So I Don't think that there's any any indication that would signify that I will. We already have record where he just Appeared in a building without any kind of record of him opening the door. We also see where he walks with two men after the resurrection and then As soon as he breaks the bread and hands it to them He's gone in an instant and nobody knows how he left.

They knew who they were talking to because they burned within them and their names escaped me at the moment. I won't say it's Philip and Andrew, but I might be wrong. But the point I'm getting at is is that after Christ's resurrection.

You see.

Him interact with his creation. Completely differently than you do while he's walking around in the four gospel accounts. It almost is like what he interacts with creation in the Old Testament where he's just there and then he's just gone.

Okay, that's kind of the direction that I was going to ask my questions. So you were talking about. After glorification. Or we're released from being our flesh being bound. Exactly and that would be true for humans.

We're we're we're gonna be like the first fruits Christ. You'll be like him. And. Would that also be true for then all of creation? In the consummation of all things. It will be released from that time bound because you know how we we also measure time by decay.

That's true, too. We we would uh, I don't know if we measure time by decay, but it certainly happens over a period of time, right? Well, I'm sure it to be honest with you that at the culmination of all things that time is not put to an end and That's why eternity exists.

Because there's an end of time that time itself is no longer a thing and no longer a physical dimension. I said time I believe to be tangential to spiritual, but I still believe that to be a physical a physical thing because it is something that Does affect us in the physical and it is something that apparently is overcome by things that are spiritual therefore if it's limited to the physical It there stands reason that there is an end to it just like there would be an end to all things.

But maybe not necessarily in an end to Time but an end to our being bound to the third dimension perhaps.

But if we're not bound to it Then there would be no reason to write about it or no reason to correlate with it. And if there's no reason to correlate to it officially or or in terms of practicality, it is dead to us.

It is something negligible. Hmm.

So what was Adam like then? You talk about Adam. Adam before the fall.

So I would have imagined that before the fall that Adam was was not going to perish. Because it was the sin that brought about death, right? So before the sin, then you you don't see any reason for Adam to perish and at some point is it I.

Think it's almost a moot point to discuss because it's clear that he was going to let me put this way in the garden. Did everybody? Eat of the garden or were there prey animals and predators? Bible. Bible indicates that everyone eat from the trees of the garden that the garden supplied at all the nutrients that was needed for all.

Living sets stain all life. Right, but it's clear that God created animals with teeth and Claws to kill and feed on other animals. It was in their design at the same time. There was no reason for it until after the flood.