TiL Interview- Time Travel!

Welcome to the truth in love podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight We have a special guest interview with John Jones real talk with Big John.

I'm Rob. That's Dan tonight We're going to talk about time travel Well, maybe stick with us.

We're gonna travel take a journey and our discussion is going to be time

From mr. John Jones and the pastor John Joan his perspective I had a conversation with with John a while back about his perspective on time

Space the physical realm and I found it so interesting

It it intrigued me. I feel like in a lot of these topics in in our

Christian life. We we get to a point where We just keep it simple

When it when it comes to time we we know that we are time bound us as physical creatures were time bound and we say that God is outside of time and we kind of leave it at that and We don't dig any further.

I Guess for me personally mainly because I'm I'm not a aerospace engineer,

I'm I'm not any kind of Scientist in a lab trying to study these things

But I do enjoy thinking about them and talking about them And and that's what the conversation was that I have with John Dan, how are you tonight?

I'm doing great. I'm interested to see what kind of DeLorean we're gonna hop into and We'll check it out 22 seconds.

It took one minute 22 seconds for a reference On the flux capacitor or something to come out 1 .28

gigawatts or something like that. I know it's 88 miles an hour. That's right. That's right So, I don't know how much

I know about anything in regards in regards to To any of it so much as things that kind of I don't know come out of my study of scripture

How much of a setup do you want on this brother brother Rob, what do you want from me? How do you start wherever you want to start?

All right so first time I got to thinking about this was whenever the book of Genesis says that God walked with Adam in the cool of the day and That tripped me out

I'm not a scientist. I'm not an engineer. I'm just I'm just a regular guy, but Jesus talking to the woman at the well said that God was a spirit those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth and then

We see God interact with Moses He's like nobody can see Me and live and he hit him in the cleft of the rock and he saw his hinder parts as he passed by and I'm continually perplexed with how

Someone can see Something that is spiritual how you can walk with a spirit and And then you there's there's piles of other things that seem perplexing to me

How is it that we have clear? Theophanies in the

Old Testament which for means just an Old Testament Depiction or an

Old Testament Appearance of Christ prior to the virgin birth in a

New Testament and you got to ask yourself How can that be? Right.

I mean, how do you explain? Who Abraham talks to? How can you explain who walked in the garden and I think it just simply boils down to the transcendent nature of who

Christ is Is that fair and perhaps an oversimplification of the transcendent nature of who

Christ is and then I got to thinking about the reason that so befuddled me was because I've always looked at time as something that I'm bound by to use kind of the terminology using earlier and I think that that's that's where my my

That's where my I guess curiosity. Why most peak so high Tomorrow always follows today

And that's always preceded yesterday It doesn't make any sense

To think in terms of anything reversed because no matter how hard I try I can never go backwards.

I can never go forward I have to wait on tomorrow to get here. I am tethered to today

Right, but Christ is not He is

Above all and Transcendent of all and that's what got the old mind thinking something differently perhaps

But I really believe that all this is just in an effort to try to understand God better Not in an effort to try to undermine any other orthodox teaching of Christ I'm talking about.

I totally agree. I think I I mean, I and I know that there are scientists.

There are specialty fields that are studying time You know time travel is is in sci -fi space time

Is in sci -fi and is in reality Yeah, I mean

I watched episodes where they're they make sure there's clocks that are that are set and I I can't recall but there's

They're all yep, I can't even explain it but the relational to gravity. Yeah, so it's all this is so complex and And I think the reason is complex is because we don't have any way to actually measure time

Mm -hmm. I think that's where in lie the problem Because if time were something that you could accurately measure

Then you would never have two two clocks that were set the exact same places and and Because of their relation to one another and their relation to Earth's gravity.

They wouldn't change one of them is in the Some like ones in Colorado I think one of them's in France or something like that and you have this two different locations one of them is so much higher in elevation than the other and You know theoretically

I suppose you can make an argument that because the earth is spinning one rotation That anything that is above sea level it has to travel further to go around the same distance in the revolution does that make sense?

Mm -hmm, and There's that argument. I suppose if you're looking at time in terms of a revolution, but again, you're comparing time to something that is tangible and That's where I found out that humans are just so we're just so dumb that we can't

Articulate the passing of time unless we hook it to something else You 24 minute 24 hours in a day 60 minutes in the hour 60 seconds, what would that be?

Without the vibrations of the quartz atoms that we use to measure series of Fluctuations known as Hertz that we count up to mean so many seconds

We're using other things how they naturally vibrate to determine what period of time passes during that so I would say that just as sure as width is this way and Length is this way and depth is this way?

Time is another dimension. That is not necessarily feasible or not necessarily

Intuitively obvious to our five six our five senses and therefore must be interpreted the way that depth is interpreted on a two -dimensional plane

That's the way I think about it, and I hope this tracks I don't want to get only get carried away But the reason that I think it's important is because when

I see things like Hebrews 1 Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets in different times in different ways

In these last days, he's spoken to us by his son whom he pointed error of all things through whom he made the universe

Through whom he made the universe. We're talking about the

Lord as we know him in Scripture Who is the final?

Authoritative word from God concerning all of creation and we have that text it was through him

The risen Lord that God created the universe you understand how that can become complex to think about yeah, because Otherwise, it's almost like saying that in order for if time is something that God is bound to then

It's almost as if though God has to be born die Resurrected from the dead didn't go back in time and create everything

Which would mean that there was nothing for him to be born into which is complex and absolutely abstract and nonsensical so what it means to me is that the risen

Savior as we understand through Scripture to Transcend time in a way that he has the

I'm gonna say ability because I don't know another word to use But I'm sure there's a better word to simply

Show up or simply move Throughout what we know is a solid line of time that never can be changed

And that's how we see the Lord walking with Abraham with Adam With with the same

Lord being before Joshua before Jericho is taken over, right? I Think that's how these theophanies happen.

These theophanies are where God has showed up After the resurrection to talk to those in the

Old Testament Which kind of puts you in the mind of some of the things Peter would say where?

After he was died and went into the earth He went and talked to those that were in Sheol or he went down in the pit some people would say

I Don't know if that's necessarily the right way their time to put that however These things are difficult.

Then you couple Hebrews 1 with Hebrews 4 which says therefore

While the promise remains for entering into his rest Let us fear that none should miss it for we also received good news just as they did

But the message that we heard did not benefit them since there were not united With those who heard it by faith for we have believed enter into the rest in keeping with what is said

He's sworn his anger. They'll not enter his rest. Obviously. This is a reference to those walking around in Israel and wilderness

But then this part comes up and Yet his works have been finished since the foundation of the world for somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in this way and God rested on the seventh day from all his works and Again in that package.

He says he'll never enter into my rest he takes the create what we were just referred to as simply the creation account and Somehow he's using that portion of creation account story to refer to salvation

You catch that Does that not look like it shouldn't fit? unless The thing necessary for salvation to be in place has been there since day number six

Then that tracks with how Abraham is able to be saved before the crucifixion

Because the work necessary for salvation has effectively been done by day number six is end and Simply belief in Christ is the same saving faith that we have in the

New Testament And I hope I mean, I know that sounds crazy And I don't know if it come out of my mouth as simple as it's going on in my mind

Yeah, I think you're the first person I've ever heard try to flesh that this concept out like oh

I think we've we've all talked about before how You were seen as righteous. We're seen as glorified.

All those things are seen as already been accomplished but but you're trying to flesh those things out and try to grasp and understand maybe how

That's working Yeah, I'm trying but I don't know that I got the faculties to do it

I Know that oh that salvation is The greatest work that I can see in Scripture that Christ has done

Speaking things into existence or things. I don't understand. I'm just being real with you. I don't know how he does it

He's God and I'm not and he can say let it be and it just is

Right baffles everybody to this day But to make man right with God means that God has to die and Then raise himself from the dead

Which is far harder to do apparently than simply speak the world into existence

So when he says he rested from all his works on the seventh day

I Think that's both important because the work of salvation being the greatest work that he ever done has accomplished

And we never hear about the eighth day starting in all the creation account Never we stop at day seven.

So so Day Eight if you want to look at his only be looked at as celebrating the resurrection so I think this is why there's some confusion in our in our theology with When someone's saved how someone's saved is there a difference altogether between Predestination and foreknowledge at that point

It almost seems silly to say there is a difference when the God who saves and just just for new to use for knowledge

It's just saying for new it's from the end telling it and then the Greatest complexity of the whole thing is the fact that the way

Jesus refers to himself in the book of Revelation is the most unique way

I've ever heard him refer to himself and if if you use

Mathematics to discuss it. He says the one who was The one who is and the one who is to come right?

But he says that as if it's a statement that never changes

So I Want to refer to this and I don't know how to make the English language work for me

But I want to call this like an attribute of God that we don't talk about the omni temporal nature of God How he is simultaneously in one place all the time

That even though for us tomorrow hasn't happened yet when we say that God is waiting for us tomorrow

Or he has our tomorrow in his hands. He's Already there as if to say tomorrow has already existed and that that's where he stands

See, we keep thinking about the future as being something that's still being written I propose to you that the future has already been written and The fact that we haven't made it to it yet just means that we're finite and unable to get there

It doesn't mean that God's not I found this

Several things that you said so fascinating. I mean when you said that He rested on the seventh day because his his work was finished and that includes the cross

Yes, sir. Well what I believe you Well, it says in was a Revelation 13 that he was a lamb slain before the foundations of the world

Right. Yeah, I was gonna say, you know We can we can be so tied to the creation account that we're saying what all that's just speaking of, you know creating things but Dan pointed out that verse

That's right. What about that verse? Ephesians 1 for we were chosen in him before the foundations of the world for the foundation dirt

So we can see we keep thinking like somehow another this is all that God is reactionary That's it's so we we demean

God so much by acting as if though we he has to wait on tomorrow to get here to make that happen

Jesus walking on this earth Says some of the most profound things that we just skipped through whenever they lower that man born of four into the living room and he says your son your sins are forgiven get up and walk

And there he says it's which is easier to say your sins are forgiven or take up your bed and walk, right? And these people just have a field day with him.

He says Well, the Son of Man has authority to forgive sin

He could forgive sin before sin had quote -unquote been atoned for on the cross

Which is indicative to say that that power to save was present prior to the crucifixion so if that power to say was present prior to the crucifixion and we know that Sin was never crucified until it was crucified on that cross and that work must have already been complete

And we can say that God credited because that's the only way finite beings can look into the future about God's faithfulness

I think from God's point of view looking down This thing is wrapped up to the point to where we're already with him in the heavenlies now

This is that too says we are seated with him presently in the heavenlies So that's why

I believe That time as we know it is merely a facade the same way that my flesh and blood is merely just a facade

For for the soul that's inside of me. Does that make sense without sounding absolutely, you know, just bats in the barrel for crazy and and heretical of any degree

Well, there is go ahead. It sounds a lot like The Doctrine of divine simplicity

Because what what that doctrine says is that? God is not He's not made up of his different attributes.

He he is those things so they kind of they're looking at his attributes are the way of us

Describing what God actually is and and when you roll that doctrine around for a bit

Theologians say that that makes God not One who who acts like we do but he's one who is pure act meaning that as he

Decides to do something he doesn't he does it all at once which would mean that His creation of the world would entail all that happens in history and We're just experiencing it

Through I guess the only way we can which would be time. So he did one pure act

Let there be light and from there. We witness it as You know the second day in the third day

Moses and Abraham and all the rest but really it's all just one act of God.

I Think that this thing this same truth can be used to kind of look at things that are otherwise

Our concepts that are I frankly I believe and take them on faith, but I can't really do anything more than just define them

The Trinity for example, I believe God's a triune God Eternally existent as Father Son and Holy Ghost I Can give you the definition that comes from Google?

But if I were to tell you in my mind, I fully comprehended what that meant. That would be a bald -faced lie Is that fair man?

Mm -hmm. So but then I get to thinking about well so I Understand what little bit

I understand about the world around me in three dimensions Minus time time being one that I can't

I can't wrap my mind around. I just just real with you I can't imagine more complexities than that.

I Don't have the faculties. My mind is extremely limited to width height and depth

That's it in order to accurately measure or to quantify them I have to exceed beyond the capacities and the parameters of those things

Simply put if I want to cut a piece of lumber to fit in a house frame

I have to have a tape measure that will both measure where the lumber goes and Exceed the limitations of that lumber so that I can accurately mark it

So if I say I need 16 feet I need to have a tape measure that can both measure where that 16 feet

Board goes and then go drag that thing out and it needs to at least go to 16 feet 0 .001

in order for me to draw a line so in order to Accurately quantify and measure that dimension.

I have to be able to exceed that dimension I cannot exceed the third dimension because I'm simply held captive to it, but I can

Work backwards and think about things in a two -dimensional plane and try to figure out how a third dimensional object would interact within that two -dimensional object, so if you imagine two dimensions for the sake of Of not going into what that means and in depth it would be an infinitely flat plane of length and height, but no depth

What does it look like when a three -dimensional object? comes into contact with a two -dimensional plane

For instance if you were to take a sphere and Try to interact with a sphere in a two -dimensional plane

You would see an infinitely small dot if you set it on top of that plane And as it began to go through that plane it would grow into a circle and then shrink back into an infinitely small dot and then disappear and If objects or people inside that two -dimensional frame tried to perceive what that third dimension was

They'd be at a loss for words for it. They wouldn't have any way to quantify the same way I'm telling you we can't quantify time and God is exceeding beyond that So when the when the psalmist says so much higher than the heavens are above earth are

God's ways above our ways That's what that's the way that I think about it God must exceed time in such a way that he can appear whenever whenever however to whomever and Instant without time necessarily being attached to it

That's pretty much all I got brother It makes sense. I took a theoretical physics class in college and They they tried to put it this way that if you were sitting completely still

The planets weren't moving you were just sitting completely still You wouldn't be in the same place you were second to second because you're at you're still actively moving through time

To where you'd actually be in a different place Okay So, I mean like you said, what does that look like?

How does it work? I don't know but it I guess it's a attempt to look out there to say

Even if you're not moving you're moving through That fourth dimension even if you're not really

Comprehending how you're doing it exactly It's it's one of the things that I think if Now this profits you nothing in the physical

I'll just be honest with you because you can't change a thing about it, right? Nobody can increase his height or his or anything

What you are is what you consist of based on what God has given you you can't exceed beyond that unless God lets you exceed beyond that and So in the physical world in the physical nature

I can't see is where much of this is going to be helpful to you when me and brother Claude Ramsey were talking about it

He he cited some guy who said something to this effect He said when and you know, how brother

Claude is He's got an author of a book that somebody wrote in an obscure passage somewhere in a cave

And I was like, how did you even think that up that quick The brass tacks is where this of where this relates to me in Theology and where it matters to me is in the fact that if we consider

Time is negligible whenever we're considering Christ We're considering how the

Holy Spirit and how God the Father interact with his creation and his people in his word

Completely transcendent of time in a way Then to me it honors God more and shows more of the majesty that is

God and them and obviously the mind That is in God that created all of this stuff

So when Jesus looks at the Pharisees, it says before Abraham was what's he said for that?

I am he didn't say I was And he refers to himself the way that the that God the

Father referred to himself when he spoke to Moses which was like eternal like I just I exist and You can't escape that and I think that these little glimpses into The majesty that is

God is some of the things that David tried to write about when he was pondering Creation sitting there watching some sheep

You know and some of the early church guys that gathered together and like look that God is so much more profound than we even thought he was that he he talks to Hagar Concerning her son and I believe that if you removed time

The way that we think about it from the equation Jesus is passing between the candlesticks

So he talks to John in Revelation at the exact same point that he's discussing things with Adam in the garden and with Abraham outside of the city that lot was in or Joshua outside of Jericho or the disciples at the last table why he's

Breaking bread with him that these things are existent in a place where God is it just he is and He's steadfast and unmovable and and ever faithful and everything kind of goes

Hey wire, but he's the only point in in all of existence That is sure and stable and unchanging and holy and unwavering and unlike anything else that has ever been

So, let me ask you two simple questions based on things you've said One of the benefits of homeschooling is that you're able to teach your children

Math comes from God science comes from God exactly writing English Grammar comes from God you can teach you can teach your children that all these things originate come from design

They're all come from God Mm -hmm in what you're talking about discussing time discussing the fourth dimension

We could even say that sci -fi comes from the

Christian Perspective, but what you were saying when that we're limited to the third dimension

What I heard you saying was that? We get the concept and we get the these things in our imagination

Because of what we learn about God inscription is his character in nature that this these these things actually exist

We just don't know how they work. That's why we we kind of use our imagination and create that create these sci -fi things

But we since we can't understand them and we can't create them that some some of these sci -fi things like Technology, you know in older sci -fi films and movies have come to existence but when it comes to this fourth dimensional stuff and and travel and You're saying that we're it's beyond us currently totally and and some of the sci -fi stuff though.

It's a Christian perspective Because it reflects God's character nature.

We'll never be able to Figure it out and Do some of those things in reality now you you're talking about things

I think that that time as we understand it is a force tangential to things that are spiritual

Explained so There's certain things that are subtly located in the physical wit height debt 100 % located in the physical because we can perceive them with physical senses and we need nothing else to perceive them

This would fall within general revelation when I see creation I can understand the hand of God at work because I see creation

It's not saying you see God's hand at work, but you see the evidence of God's hand at work. I have a book

Therefore I know there was an author. I have a paint painting Therefore I know there was a painter you extrapolate this facts or these evident through the evidences that you have so whenever I look at things like time what

I'm understanding in that moment is that That is something that is not

Subtly located within the physical it is tangential or near being near close to being something that is spiritual and The things that are flesh cannot perceive the things that are spirit or cannot inherit or or understand the things that are spiritual

They might be able to be perceived But they're only going to be able to be perceived by thing by something that is spiritual in this case

I believe that what what little understanding I have gathered from this Was given by the

Holy Spirit so that it would and it glorifies to me it glorifies God in this which is the work the

Holy Spirit supposed to do second unto drawing people to God is to show the The glory and the majesty of God and to and to lift up and exalt the name of God so whenever I see that It just gives me a great deal of peace that that not only

Was God's substitutionary atonement on the cross and his subsequent resurrection from the dead not just reactionary to Adam's sinfulness, but in fact that He was the model that Adam was fashioned after Now think about the implications of that Adam had a body right

But God is a spirit So what body type was

Adam likened into the image of the resurrected Lord Does that make sense so if Genesis 1 26 for let us make man in our image this triune talk that we have in the beginning to me best

I understand it Adam was actually molded into the likeness of the risen

Lord That means that this thing was Wrapped up before Adam was carved out of the earth that there was already atonement made

That means that God not only knew that there was going to be a fall But that he had already made a way in preparation for redemption beyond it

That he truly holds all things in all and he is so much greater than I could ever understand

Why can't I help but put my trust and faith in him It gives me peace to just say, okay,

Lord, I don't understand it and that's fine because I know you do Yeah, so so when we're trying to think about these things and work them out in our three -dimensional mind or three -dimensional capacity

We talk about well Jesus was spirit until he was come and and God fashioned him a body

Yeah, and he was born of the Virgin Mary and that's when he had a body but in God's Capability and in process, you know it all was

Exactly So I got a couple questions so is being

I Don't know you want to say Time relevant or bound to time something that is a part or necessary to human nature.

I Don't know that's necessary to human nature so much as necessary to flesh to make sense

Mm -hmm. So I assume that being bound to time is also I got a little puppy dog around here somewhere

It's probably just he's just as bound to time as I am, but he's not human or was a human in nature

Yeah, but what is what is that those of us with a soul Would be freed from that the moment we depart from our soul or our flesh okay, so when

Well, so when Jesus came to the earth and he took on a body wouldn't his flesh have been

Bound to time So you're acting as if though that somehow God's fleshly nature is

Entirely separate from his divine nature, but we would know that God is both divine and man well, he is both but if his human nature is

A true human nature like ours is then it would be bound to the same Things that ours is no relevance of time having to eat getting tired

I see what you're saying here now I did each time I did make there is the reference to the risen

Savior didn't I or did I not? But but even even then his body was risen and he was still united with his human nature glorified

Right, that's true, but it doesn't necessarily Change what the human nature would be would it

I don't think that there's any record that indicates that Christ must eat in in the heavenlies is there that after his resurrection that he was required to sleep or eat or any of the other things that he

Was doing while he was walking around for thirty three and a half years Or is there something

I'm missing? No, there's no there's no record either either direction So are we tons are we to assume that that it's that the frailties that Christ took on whenever he?

Walked around for thirty three and a half years or however many years it was that he continues to endure those even in eternity

I wouldn't say that he would continue to to endure it because he's been glorified, but that's why

I was wondering if if if being bound to time is something that is is Part of the human nature then that would be something that he is still bound to I suppose

Whether it's glorified or not. It'd still be part of the human nature so I Don't think that there's any any indication that would signify that I will we already have record where he just Appeared in a building without any kind of record of him opening the door

We also see where he walks with two men after the resurrection and then As soon as he breaks the bread and hands it to them

He's gone in an instant and nobody knows how he left They knew who they were talking to because they burned within them and their names escaped me at the moment

I won't say it's Philip and Andrew, but I might be wrong But the point

I'm getting at is is that after Christ's resurrection You see him interact with his creation

Completely differently than you do while he's walking around in the four gospel accounts It almost is like what he interacts with creation in the

Old Testament where he's just there and then he's just gone Okay, that's kind of the direction that I was going to ask my questions.

So you were talking about After glorification Or we're released from being our flesh being bound exactly and that would be true for humans

We're we're we're gonna be like the first fruits Christ. It'll be like him and Would that also be true for then all of creation?

In the consummation of all things It will be released from that time bound because you know how we we also measure time by decay

That's true, too We we would uh, I don't know if we measure time by decay, but it certainly happens over a period of time, right?

We make sure it to be honest with you that at the culmination of all things that time is not put to an end and That's why eternity exists

Because there's an end of time that time itself is no longer a thing and no longer a physical dimension

I said time I believe to be tangential to spiritual but I still believe that to be a physical a physical thing because it is something that Does affect us in the physical and it is something that apparently is overcome by things that are spiritual therefore if it's limited to the physical

It there stands reason that there is an end to it just like there would be an end to all things

But maybe not necessarily in an end to Time but an end to our being bound to the third dimension perhaps

But if we're not bound to it Then there would be no reason to write about it or no reason to correlate with it

And if there's no reason to correlate to it officially or or in terms of practicality, it is dead to us

It is something negligible So what was Adam like then? You talk about Adam Adam before the fall

So I would have imagined that before the fall that Adam was was not going to perish

Because it was the sin that brought about death, right? So before the sin, then you you don't see any reason for Adam to perish and at some point is it

I Think it's almost a moot point to discuss because it's clear that he was going to let me put this way in the garden

Did everybody? Eat of the garden or were there prey animals and predators?

Bible Bible indicates that everyone eat from the trees of the garden that the garden supplied it all the nutrients that was needed for all

Living sets stain all life Right, but it's clear that God created animals with teeth and Claws to kill and feed on other animals.

It was in their design at the same time there was no reason for it until after the flood, so It's almost

I mean, I don't say it's semantics as we use that word an awful lot. But I mean, it's almost like Yeah, it's

Figuratively speaking. There was no death. Therefore. There was no reason for for Adam to worry about About time the way that we worry about time because he would have lived forever

However, he was still a finite being who had no no concept of beyond himself

And he had to wait on tomorrow to get here the same way that we do. Mm -hmm One of the things

I was thinking about when I was referring to Adam is is this this time space travel that you refer to that Jesus did in his glorified state as you were describing, you know appearing disappearing going through walls

Through then when all the doors were shut and locked and and then us Being like him in our glorified state

What was Adams ability I know we don't know but I don't know that that that wouldn't be one of those things that I suppose the only scriptural evidence that we have

To indicate that it is possible to discuss anything with anyone Post -morbid would be where Saul consulted a medium about Samuel Is there an example other than that that that y 'all know that I did

I've forgotten? How'd you phrase it again? post -mortem account of anybody

We that has talked to another living creature With the exception of Christ obviously or Lazarus being resurrected, but I'm talking about somebody who was still in the grave

Discussing anything with the living would be where Saul asked a medium to contact

Samuel on his path The transfiguration yet Elijah Moses.

Well, this is a actually that's in the comments over here. Yeah, it's pretty interesting. You said that How about that Check it out.

I think I think the correct terminology nowadays is unalive Unalive that's a thing.

Don't worry about it. Okay There's a lot just presence of the transfiguration not show that our sin as us beholden to time more than our foot

That could very well be the case. I don't know how you separate Flesh and blood from our current state without passing away first.

Do y 'all I Know I don't think it does beholden us time more than our flesh because God was creating time

You know setting forth the days and to mark the times and the seasons and everything when he made Adam sinless

So I don't know it don't know if it's our sin that holds us time more than our flesh. It's our created way of being

And you're talking about things not existing anymore like time would sin be one of those things, you know

We talk about not there not being a moment. No more tears. No, we're dying No, I think you have to Sins the sin has been put to death on the cross, right?

And we carry it about in our mortal bodies according to Paul, but whenever we put off Immortality.

Hey, and that thing was been said first Corinthians 15 my favorite first Bible the thing that is sown and corruption is raised in incorruption the thing that's sown and Mortality is raised in immortality

Then the saying that was prophesied to come true that death is swallowed up in victory or death

Where's your victory or sting or grave? Where's your stain for the sting of death of sin and the strength of sin is in the law

But thanks be to God who give us a victory through Jesus Christ therefore be Steadfast unwavering for your work knowing that your work in the

Lord is not in vain. Is that right? Something like that So if the thing that is sin is sown or put in the ground or dead

And the thing that is raised up is incorruptible or sin less right or no more sin applied to it

So I would say that that's probably factual and both biblical So do you think that this is the reason why?

Miracles can exist in the third dimension because in the fourth dimension where where Christ and the trying

God live all these things Sin has been defeated

It's always been defeated. So therefore miracles can happen in in the third dimension, you know,

Christ walking on water Christ healing I Can't see why not I mean, I mean

I would be careful to make sure that I didn't say that Christ lived in the fourth dimension so much as Say he's beyond it

Just like in order to measure that board you have to be superior to it He can't move where he would wherever he desires unless he's superior to that, right, right so He he exists in a place even beyond that so that I'm saying time is beyond us and Christ is it beyond even that That you weak.

I honestly Can't fathom the majesty of God No mind can think no

I seen or ears heard and reads in at a heart of man the things that God's prepared for some majesty that is

God is Something beyond all the science fiction can cook up all the the comic book characters can write or comic book authors or whatever

It is can write You can't fathom how great God is. Yeah, how majestic he is

Well, could you could you put it like this? We we will not I think

Scripher describes for us and tells us that we we will be where he is But we will not be who he is

Does say that we'll be like him because we'll see him as he is that's true, right, right

But we'll never play God. Yeah, don't conflate what I'm saying. It will ever be divine or no No, we'll be like him as far as we can without taking over stuff that doesn't belong to us exactly, right

I'm at the end of all I know and I don't know any of it to be Make any I mean just we discussed a little bit of this and this is kind of what's been on my heart for a while And you know what?

You know often you get to talk about it So I really wasn't prepared to I thought we were going to like have a discussion with some questions

I didn't know you was going to say here John So Thank you for having me and I hope

I didn't just completely derail the whole ministry with was something this you know, no, it's it's good because it's something that you can't really have a a

Full complete answer on because it's just something that we weren't given to know fully and completely right now

But it's good to to kind of walk up to the edge and peer out into the end of the unknown

Knowing that God is good and great and wonderful and he has stuff that we just can't even fathom and just to Sit there and say man if my brain can comprehend at least this far

Imagine what reality is it's uh, you know, God's so much more incredible than then we could even

Come up with so now I think it's great being able to stand there at the edge of the edge of the abyss and stare off into God's glory and Just see how wonderful is this good stuff?

And he still cares for us yeah, and he would come and and gird himself with a cloth and wash his disciples feet and Be beat and berated and carry a cross

And die for my sin When I can't even imagine the magnitude of the glory he left to do that.

I physically I can't imagine What it what it must be like to have left glory for this

That's a love people don't understand I don't understand but I wish

I did yeah The second question that I was going to ask you Then we can that of course

I'm messing all this up because that would have been a perfect time to to leap into the gospel which you guys were explaining so well, but that same question that I that I had when

I was talking about sci -fi and We get we get those ideas everything comes from God Could it could it be now the only way the only way that we could enter into And step our toe into some of those things when it comes

Well, you're talking about dimensional things. You're talking about maybe even time travel and Being at one place

At all times or all times in one place. I can't even comprehend what I'm saying about it, but There are beings in the spiritual realm in that spiritual realm that interact with us have interacted with us, so They would have knowledge.

Do you think that that knowledge has been shared? With the man in the past.

I've never thought about that Suppose it's possible But I don't know that I Assume you're talking about maybe fallen angels that would share this or something like that when you say

Spiritual beings that will interact with man. I just that's where my Dark twisted mind went.

You know, that's what you meant or not. I don't know sure, uh, I Suppose that's possible, but I can't tell you that I could point to a place in Scripture to back that up So, I mean,

I'm sorry I Think we're I think we're smart I think mankind is smart but the you know, these these things that we've created to just to destroy each other with you know

Yeah, Dan and I walked through Daniel and we looked at how there were

Angels, if you will fallen angels God's messengers Yeah, we're assigned over nations.

Yeah, there's a war raging in the heavenlies That's right. And yeah maybe

Knowledge was given to to man to destroy one another. I don't know. I don't know.

I know that that that man Man could take a good thing and make it bad.

I know that There's been Examples or instances where folks are taking certain drugs such as a

DMT and they'll they'll actually See as best

I can tell see into other realms talk to other entities know things and Those things have been known to to to tell them things that that are true and some that are not true some that are harmful and when they try to You know cut off the relationship with that entity things get sideways

Yeah, and and whenever they call whenever somebody calls out the name of Jesus that entity leaves them alone so I would say yeah, there's there's there's definitely a spiritual warfare behind the scenes where information is getting passed from the spiritual realm to ours that it's real and True but just because it's real doesn't mean that it's not evil and meant to hurt us

That's true. The Bible says to try every spirit and see if it be of God for a reason yeah, and that's probably why we don't need to tiptoe or Touch those esoteric type things because we're

I mean we would do with the world What we would do with knowledge of things outside of this world

Exactly if if you're studying to this kind of thing and it's kind of not to YouTube because I know that I know

YouTube better than I know anybody probably watching this if If you're studying into something like this is more because of the science fiction

Other worldliness aspect of it. I'd say leave it alone. Yeah, leave it alone because I make you crazy for one the other part of us because if if this doesn't in your heart make you just Just be bewildered by the magnitude and the majesty of God, then it's really motivated in the wrong way

Yeah, and that's something that I think really I Want to say

I'm trying to guard my heart against because To some degree I can be kind of inquisitive

About things that really don't have nothing to price eggs in China You know at the end of the day you get through with something

I really don't matter none, you know, and it really didn't but whenever you started kind of getting when I started kind of getting into some of these

Also far -out ideas or whatever to me it became more about explaining how

Christ is forgiven sins before the crucifixion and it became more about How majestic is our

God how great is our God and I can't I can't put it into words It doesn't drive me to do anything other than just be

It's dumbfounded how good he is and I think that in that spirit

It's it's it can be profitable. But if it's not in that spirit, I think it'd be dangerous Yeah, is that fair?

That's totally fair to think about the immeasurability of God As you were talking about how he is far beyond our ways far beyond our thinking far beyond our knowledge far beyond our ability that We are the creation he is the creator and and keeping ourselves in our mind and our thinking in that right order is beneficial and And exalt him.

I mean, you know that this leads us into worship Worshiping God and his beauty and his majesty

I mean, those are beautiful things and these things that we're we're shouldn't be Shouldn't have knowledge of yet that he will reveal to us one day

And Should like you said lead us into worship and be and be so thankful that that he would he would love and care for his

Creation have mercy on his creation the that we don't deserve That's right.

And so I mean, yeah, that's that's why I appreciated you know the conversation that we had before in the conversation that we had tonight about it because it does lead us into That that worship of God the reminder of who

Christ is and what he's done for us And what he's going to continue to do for us

Is his victory like you said is is sealed. It's done Yeah, we can we can have confidence and it should help

Anytime that I have anxiety anytime I have depression that he is he's not just in control

But the victory has been won it's said and it's a man and so I can

I can Lay my feet on that foundation because it is immovable.

Amen I mean The same is true for the

Alternate destination if we do not submit our knee to Christ that that destination is also

Unchangeable immovable and so we would plead with all those who do not know

Christ Look at who your God is look at who your

Creator is. He's amazing. He's wonderful, but we've rebelled against him We've sinned against him from the beginning and in our nature.

We will continue to do so But God sent his one and only son to rescue us

He gave himself to rescue us didn't have to But because of his character his nature who he is he did and so based on the kindness of God Let it lead us to repentance

Amen earning from our sin turning from a life of pleasing ourselves disobedience to God rebellion against God Let us humbly bow our knees

With repentance and faith trusting in the work of Christ and him alone Christ is the only foundation

The only way that we can see the father live in eternity and Enjoy these wonderful things that we were talking about tonight.

The only way Jesus says he is the way the truth and a life He's the only way to the father.

Amen. No one can come to him go to the father, but through him so That's our message is

Jesus Christ. Amen John as our guest would you close us in prayer? Be honored to do we cover everything that you wanted to cover it was a good conversation, okay

Thank you again for having me we father I come to you in Jesus name you're so far beyond what

I can understand And you still care for us. I Can't bring anything to you that you don't already have

I Can give you my praise and my worship and my whole heart and every beat of it

And it's yours I'm thankful for who you are Lord, I pray that That you'd take whatever

Whatever we've got here and we'd use it for your For the upbuilding of your kingdom for your glory that you'd be that you'd be magnified in it.

There'd be nobody nobody here that would be seeking after any kind of promotion or any kind of Exaltation but Lord let it all be about exalting you you are the name above all names

You are greater than I can imagine And I'm thankful that you love

Bless these men who are here tonight. I pray their families be blessed and all that listen to it. It's in Jesus name. I pray

Amen, amen Love you guys and appreciate you and we appreciate you for watching. Thank you so much

We hope this was encouraging and helpful to you. Well, hope you'll come back in and join us again

Remember as always that Jesus is King go live in the victory of Christ Speak with the authority of Christ and share the gospel of Christ.