“Confessions of a Former Word of Faith Pastor” On The Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:35

Welcome to the Dividing Line today. My name is John Sampson. I serve as pastor at King's Church in Phoenix, Arizona Dr.

00:45

James White is away today, and I have the joy and privilege of filling in for him and Hopefully you'll enjoy the program today as we talk about something.

00:53

I believe that's close to the heart of God his sovereignty his Majesty his holiness and in contrast to that Exposing some of the deception of something called the word of faith movement, which

01:06

I was a part of for quite some time Want to start off because we're going to go into some serious matters with something in the way of humor just to lighten the mood

01:15

Hopefully it's supposedly a true account of something that happened in Sarasota, Florida Recorded in the police log there, and it's a story about an elderly

01:26

Florida lady who did her shopping and upon returning to a car found four males in The act of leaving with her vehicle.

01:34

She dropped her shopping bags and drew her handgun Proceeding to scream at the top of her lungs.

01:40

I have a gun and I know how to use it get out of the car The four men didn't wait for a second threat.

01:48

They got out and ran like mad The lady somewhat shaken then proceeded to load her shopping bags into the back of the car and got into the driver's seat

01:56

She was so shaken that she could not get her key into the ignition She tried and she tried and then she realized why it was for the same reason she'd wondered why there was a football a frisbee and two 12 packs of beer in the front seat a

02:12

Few minutes later. She found her own car parked four or five spaces further down She loaded her bags into the car and drove to the police station to report her mistake

02:23

The sergeant to whom she told the story couldn't stop laughing He pointed to the other end of the counter where four pale men were reporting a carjacking

02:34

By a mad elderly woman described as white less than five feet tall

02:39

Glasses curly white hair and carrying a large handgun No charges were filed and here's the moral of the story if you're gonna have a senior moment make it memorable

02:51

Make it memorable. I love that story and It's it's something that brought me quite a few smiles and I hope it's made you smile, too

03:00

We're gonna talk about something. I believe is very very vital to our spirituality to our health as Christians And that is the sovereignty of God.

03:09

How do I start this? I need to kind of share by way of background what my story was or at least something of it

03:16

I was converted at the age of 14 and pretty soon afterwards was exposed to some very good teaching and some teaching that is as I look back that was less than good and But yet I had such a desire to study

03:32

I knew from day one of my Christian life that God had called me to ministry of some sort though I didn't know exactly what that was at the time.

03:41

I wanted to be a pro soccer player I was close to achieving that goal as I continued on in that but the

03:47

Lord had other plans, but then in 1985 I was desiring to go to Bible College and it would

03:56

Be something of a shock for folk to know That I wanted to go to a place called Ramah Bible Training Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma which is the heart of the

04:07

Bible ministry of Kenneth E Hagan and I was all set to go as approved to go.

04:14

I had all the clearance from both the government for visa purposes and the school there in Tulsa but the one obstacle was my father who was going to fund the operation and he found out that the course was not in a

04:27

Residential college that I'd have to get housing outside the grounds of the college and he was a big believer

04:33

And I think it was right that you learn most of the things you'll learn at Bible College in Discussions after the sessions have finished and if you just go to either a job or to your apartment

04:44

You're gonna miss all that and so he wouldn't fund it and that was the end of that dream of mine. I remember being absolutely devastated that I wasn't being to be able to go to to Ramah and Yet with about two or three weeks to go before the start of the year

04:59

I applied to go to a place called Elim Bible College. It's similar to a seminary here

05:06

I think here we use in the US the word seminary a lot more frequently than they would the word college

05:12

But it amounts to the exact same thing. It's now called Regents Theological College and in God's plan the teachers at least the bulk of them perhaps 90 % of the residential teachers were reformed in their theology and I resisted it like I could and did not

05:32

Enjoy that aspect and and yet no one ever sat me down and walked me through Why they believed what they believed from the scriptures regarding Soteriology the study of salvation

05:44

It just never happened. I heard later that there was a fight that broke out between an Arminian and a

05:50

Calvinist The year before and so there was a reluctancy to openly talk about these things

05:56

Although it's obviously the case that a teacher who is reformed that will come out in their teaching

06:03

But no one ever walked me through why they believed what they believed Now I went through the

06:11

Bible College there then in 1987 Became the associate minister.

06:16

This was immediately after finishing the Bible College the associate minister of a man called Harry Greenwood he was very well known in the

06:24

United Kingdom and my understanding of faith

06:29

Was built more on Harry Greenwood and another gentleman that may be very well known in the

06:35

United Kingdom Colin Urquhart who was a former Church of England minister who encountered the

06:43

Holy Spirit according to his writings He wrote a very popular book called when the Spirit comes, but which was highly influential

06:51

I've actually got a couple of his books here one called anything you ask

06:56

Another called receive your healing and in terms of the faith movement in the

07:01

United Kingdom he was very prominent and he was very orthodox when it comes to subjects such as the deity of Christ the humanity of Christ is

07:11

Anglican or Church of England background did not cause him to go into some strange things that happen on the

07:17

American side of things with folk like Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagan and certainly others who had very aberrant views regarding the cross and so I started in ministry with Harry Greenwood and Had a whirlwind tour of the planet with him for nine months.

07:36

I was with him living in the same house I was his associate minister Oftentimes he'd be preaching and give me 10 or 15 minutes to preach and then he'd follow on either correcting the mistakes or going further into the subject either one sometimes both and It was a joy.

07:51

It was an amazing Time of my life after Bible College in the nine months

07:57

I was with him probably six of those months were spent overseas in places like the United States India Australia New Zealand and learnt so so much through his ministry, but suddenly in March of 1988 he died of a heart attack and I thought that was the end of my life

08:15

I was in my early 20s and thought that was it and then a Number of opportunities came forth and one of them was to become a co -pastor in a church in Fleet in Hampshire with another brother called

08:28

Jonathan who I'm still in touch with today and for three years we were plaguing the neighborhood with flyers and having evangelistic outreaches

08:38

I think I joined the church there when there was 20 people and it grew to about 150 in the three years

08:46

I was I was there and just an amazing time amazing time of learning and I would say that even at that point we would be classed as word of faith people pastors and he was just maybe a year or two older than I was so we were there was not a lot of experience between the two of us and In 1990 a book came out by a man called

09:11

Dan McConnell This is the English version called the promise of health and wealth and I read it from cover -to -cover if you were to look at it now you'll see it's underlined on every page just learned so much from it and it was exposing the dangers of the faith movement of which

09:29

I was a part and I made mental notes as well as written notes to say well, that's a strange thing.

09:35

That's been said That's a strange thing Have to avoid that and it was amazing because you're gonna hear my story and wonder why on earth did

09:43

I stay in the camp? well, here's what was going on in my heart I Understood that I didn't have to embrace every statement made by the prominent people in the movement and I remember on a

09:59

Visit to the United States. I asked a prominent word -of -faith pastor what he thought about Kenneth Copeland's view of the atonement

10:07

And what happened between the cross of Christ and the resurrection of Christ and his answer blew me away.

10:12

He said Oh Kenneth Hagan, he's just out Kenneth Copeland. He said Kenneth Copeland is just out to lunch on That and it blew my mind.

10:21

I thought really you can still be in the camp and not agree with everything that mr Copeland said

10:27

And it just gave me sadly looking back the Liberty to stay in the movement And so I thought well,

10:33

I'll just stay with what I believe is an orthodox view and that's what I'll preach and back in 1990

10:41

After this book by Dan McConnell came out I wrote a letter to Kenneth Hagan because he was quoted widely

10:49

He'd made some public statements because he's written books on the subject But I thought let's let's find out exactly what he believes on specific issues.

10:57

And so that's what I did I wrote a letter to Kenneth Hagan. Let me see if I can find it and I I with Jonathan this other brother in fleet

11:08

Released a statement as an elder to the flock Regarding the word of faith movement.

11:15

Let me Just say what I said back in 1990 Regarding the word of faith movement and I wrote this to Kenneth Hagan.

11:23

I said this is what we're saying to our congregation Do you have anything to comment? Would you respond in any way?

11:31

This is what I wrote due to the rising concern in the fellowship the church here regarding the word of faith movement

11:36

We as elders believe it is time that we made our position clear It is for this reason that we are producing this statement.

11:42

They wanted to other sentences. I'm not going to read the whole thing I say the Bible tells us to pay close attention to yourselves and to your teaching

11:51

Persevering these things for as you do so you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you

11:56

We therefore have felt it necessary to point out the areas which are clearly unscriptural Obviously we would ask you to pray through these things yourselves then under the heading doctrinal error in the body of Christ There are different schools of thought regarding minor doctrinal issues example when the rapture occurs, etc

12:15

However, there are major points of doctrine which every Christian needs to embrace example the

12:20

Trinity the humanity and deity of Jesus Christ the sinlessness of Christ the atonement of Christ The physical resurrection of Christ, etc.

12:30

And the cornerstone of the word of faith movement is what they call What happened from the cross to the throne and can be summarized as follows one as Jesus died on the cross?

12:42

He took on the nature of Satan to Jesus became sin literally

12:49

Three and four Jesus went down into hell in our place and was tormented for three days and nights in hell

12:56

Five during this time Satan and his demons were rejoicing at Jesus apparent defeat

13:02

Six Jesus became a mere mortal man to pay for man's sins in hell

13:09

Seven Jesus defeated the devil in hell Eight the atonement merely began on the cross

13:16

But finished in hell quote the blood shed on the cross was insufficient for our atonement end of quote then

13:24

I say Orthodox Christian doctrine will now try to bring the orthodox Christian doctrine regarding the eight points mentioned above One this is nowhere mentioned in Scripture There is no redemption for Satan or his angels and there certainly

13:36

Would know was there certainly was no need for Jesus to take on the nature of Satan Hebrews 2 16 tells us that he does not give help to angels

13:45

This is a very dangerous teaching to Isaiah 53 6 tells us that our iniquities fell upon him

13:52

He bore our sins and he was the sin offering for us all our old man was placed in him yet This in no way polluted him

14:01

Jesus remained the spotless Lamb of God throughout his ordeal at Calvary 2nd

14:06

Corinthians 5 21 which if you remember is he God made him

14:12

Jesus who knew no sin To become sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in him

14:20

That verse must be read in the context of the whole canon of Scripture Jesus was the sin offering every

14:26

Old Testament sacrificial lamb was regarded as holy before during and after the sacrifice

14:32

Jesus took the judgment that was due to us on the cross as he bore our sins. Jesus was without sin

14:40

Three and for the Bible does speak of Jesus descending to Hades However, Hades contained two distinct compartments the place of torment for the wicked while awaiting the

14:51

German judgment of Christ and to the place of Comfort for the righteous believers known as Abraham's bosom or paradise

14:58

It's clear from Luke 23 43 that after his death Jesus went to paradise

15:03

First Peter 3 19 literally says Jesus made proclamation to the rebellious spirits proclamation of his victory

15:11

So it goes on Five again this concept nowhere mentioned in Scripture Scripture indeed suggests the opposite Say Colossians 2 14

15:20

Christ made a public spectacle of the enemy and triumphed over the principalities and powers by means of the cross not some other

15:30

Event six Jesus became a man. That's the second person of the Trinity became man in the incarnation

15:36

But he still maintained his divinity at no time on the cross that Jesus ceased to be divine He did not pay for man's sins in hell

15:44

Colossians 1 20 says he made peace through the blood of his cross on the cross

15:49

Jesus cried out it is finished which in the Greek means paid in full First Peter 2 24 says he bore our sins in his body on the tree

15:57

Seven there is nothing in Scripture to justify the statement that Jesus defeated the devil in hell Everything in the

16:03

New Testament regarding this points to victory being attained at the cross Colossians 2 14 and 15 number 8 first Peter 2 21 through 24

16:11

Colossians 1 20 through 22 Hebrews 10 10 are scriptures which show this teaching to be of a heretical nature.

16:19

That was of course the atonement merely Beginning on the cross but finishing in hell.

16:25

So that's what we wrote to our congregation That's what I wrote to Kenneth Hagen and stunning as it may seem.

16:32

I got a three -page letter back from Kenneth Hagen I've since talked to Raymer graduates and people who have gone through many years at Raymer and has

16:45

Stunned that not only is the letter from him by means of a personal response, but a hand signed

16:51

Letter from Kenneth Hagen because apparently he was just about untouchable Many people went through two years of training without having a personal conversation with him.

17:00

That's what I'm told I don't know how true that is, but that's what I've been told Here's his response,

17:06

June 1990 Dear, mr. Samson in response to your recent letter

17:11

You must understand that an entire book would be necessary to respond fully to every point of doctrine you presented

17:17

However, I feel that I should at least attempt a brief response to let you know where I stand on some of these issues

17:23

I'm sure you are aware that several books have been published attacking me and attacking the so -called faith message

17:31

Of course, I'm holding up one of them the promise of health and wealth by Dan McConaughey McConnell He says which

17:40

I would prefer to call the word of God message However, it needs to be noted that not one of the authors of these books knows me personally or has ever talked with me about what

17:50

I believe My comment here is we know what you believe from your writings, sir

17:56

He says this therefore they really have no idea where I stand on doctrinal matters

18:02

Furthermore, they have they have taken what others have said and have combined them with things

18:08

I have said taking most of the quotes out of context and Formulated a group theology which all of us are supposed to believe now.

18:17

Let me just say that line is true It is absolutely true and it's what probably kept me sadly looking back in the faith cam in the faith movement for many a year because there is

18:32

There was there is no headquarters for the faith movement not officially it's not like Rome where there is a

18:39

Vatican where there is a confession of faith such as The London Baptist confession of faith.

18:46

There's nothing that we have to sign to say I sign here on the line My name I put to this document.

18:53

I believe all of these statements and so there was no Collective agreement on what we believe about these things and so there is a mixed very mixed some staying within the bounds of orthodoxy on at least the issue of the cross and Some that is completely heretical

19:13

So, let me read that line again because he does make a value point here They have taken what others have said and combine them with things

19:20

I have said taking most of the quotes out of context and formulated a group theology Which all of us are supposed to believe however,

19:27

I do not necessarily agree with everyone who calls himself or herself a faith teacher

19:32

Nor do I really believe the majority of the things which these books say I believe Interesting.

19:38

I will attempt to go through the eight points presented in your letter and briefly comment on each of them I'll just read it and comment very little on it

19:47

Points one and two the Bible says in 2nd Corinthians 521 that Jesus was made to be sin who knew no sin

19:52

This is what I believe Jesus never personally sinned he's underlined that But God made him to be sin with our sins

20:03

How that was accomplished is a divine mystery just as was the virgin birth

20:08

However, if the first part of the verse is not true Then the last part of this verse is not true either and we have not been made the righteousness of God in him

20:17

That would mean that we are still lost in our sins You mentioned viewing this verse in the light of the whole canon of Scripture Even the types and shadows of the

20:26

Old Testament pointed to Jesus being made sin after all It was the brazen serpent

20:32

The serpent being a symbol of sin throughout God's Word that was raised on a pole to bring reconciliation and healing to himself

20:40

I must say something here. This really bothers me Copeland has made the statement it's outlined very well in the book here down McConnell's book that Jesus became a satanic creation on the cross his nature was polluted by sin and It seems that is indeed what

21:03

Kenneth Hagan is saying I'm trying and I have tried many times to give him the benefit of the doubt but That really worries me what he says there what he writes there worries me enormously it did back then it does still today

21:18

He says after all it was the brazen serpent the serpent being a symbol of sin throughout God's Word that was raised on a pole to bring reconciliation and healing to Israel Jesus himself stated that this was a type of himself

21:30

Also the scapegoats goats being a symbol of sin and sinners throughout Scripture had hands laid upon him to transfer the guilt of the nation of Israel and then was sent off into the wilderness to die

21:41

There are many other biblical references which time and space do not allow me to sight

21:47

I would just say Isaiah 53 tells us our sin was laid on him

21:52

But not that Jesus became a sinner on the cross not in any way at all points three and four

22:01

Kenneth Hagan says writes there is not enough scripture on this subject. Just a reminder.

22:07

That's about Jesus descent into Hades What happened to Jesus been between the time of his burial and his resurrection?

22:14

To build a strong case one way or the other this particular area has never been a major emphasis of my teaching although some others

22:21

Have emphasized it more heavily Okay point five. I do not recall ever teaching this myself.

22:27

Although I have heard others do so point five was the concept of Satanist demons rejoicing

22:36

At the apparent defeat of Jesus on the cross. He says I don't recall ever teaching that although he's aware of others doing so six

22:43

I have never at any time taught that Jesus ceased to be the divine Son of God even for a moment in all that he suffered in his death and barrier and all that he experienced in his resurrection and Continues to experience in his presence seating at God's right hand

22:57

He has remained fully God and fully man not one or the other but equally both Okay, sounds very orthodox on that point seven where Jesus defeated

23:07

Satan cannot be clearly proven from Scripture We only have one scripture to go by Colossians 2 15 and there are two alternative translations of it one says

23:16

Triumphing over them in it which seems to be a reference to the cross as mentioned in verse 14

23:22

However, the Greek word translated it in the King James Version is actually the word auto

23:28

Which could just as readily be translated Triumphing over then in him or himself

23:35

He writes why spend time splitting theological hairs over the location of Jesus defeat of Satan The important thing is that he did triumph over Satan and did so on our behalf.

23:46

We should get so caught up We shouldn't get so caught up in the technicalities that we fail to recognize and proclaim the truth

23:54

Point eight I have not taught nor do I believe that the Atonement finished in hell

24:00

He writes then in response to the name and and claim it teaching I've never stated that we can claim anything other than what the

24:07

Word of God promises us if we can't find Scripture for what we are believing for we have no basis for faith

24:12

But if God has promised something to us in his word We don't have to wait for a second word from God any sinner at any time

24:19

He chooses to act on God's Word can receive salvation Obviously you're hearing a very

24:25

Arminian position regarding that particular subject He doesn't have to wait for a spoken invitation from God before He can act on what

24:33

God has already stated in his word if this is true in the matter of salvation Then it is true in all other blessings.

24:39

God has promised us in his word including healing the meeting of our needs, etc There's been an erroneous teaching propagated concerning the meaning of Rhema Which is completely out of line with the

24:50

Greek meaning of the word this teaching states that we have to wait for God to quicken A particular verse of Scripture to us before we can act on it people on my staff who were well -versed in New Testament Greek have studied this word utilizing some of the finest study tools available the only distinction that the

25:06

Greek language makes between logos and Rhema is that logos is the written word and Rhema is the

25:11

Spoken word the Bible itself states that every word of Scripture is already God breathed 2nd

25:17

Timothy 3 16 The entire Bible has already been spoken by God and energized by his power There is no need to wait for God to do something further before we can believe his word

25:25

He has made certain promises to us and they are ours the moment. We'll reach out by faith and appropriate them

25:30

I trust that the information I've shared with you with you Will acquaint you with my stance and some of the issues you presented may

25:38

God bless you as you continue to walk in the light Of his word yours in Christ Kenneth Hagan. There we go okay,

25:45

I Won't spend too much more time on that because there's other things

25:50

I want to to get to in my own experience I was a pastor in this movement both in England then moved to the

25:57

United States in September of 1992 spent the first six months in Tucson Arizona at a large faith church.

26:07

There is about 800 people at the time it's around 1 ,600 maybe even 2 ,000 people now and It is now

26:18

Not a faith church in that sense it's very reformed the pastor and I are friends and we've gone on a very much of an unexpected journey and If you were to look at the doctrine of salvation in that church now, it's

26:34

Soteriology that's study of salvation. It's it's an application of redemption in terms of how it's perceived

26:41

Very very reformed and we're so grateful for it. So what was my involvement? I Was a word of faith pastor and there's no doubt about it

26:51

The church there in Tucson guest speakers included men like Jerry Savelle Jesse Duplantis others that are notorious in that movement.

27:01

I Formerly was not only Word of faith, but charismatic, but it gets even worse.

27:08

I was a local TBN host. I Know can can someone say such such a thing?

27:16

on the Dividing line. Yes, that's why this dividing line is called confessions of a former word of faith pastor

27:24

It doesn't get lower than that in in our eyes, right but God brought me out In fact when

27:29

I look back I was I was preaching not only what I would believe be an Orthodox view of the cross But I preached repentance.

27:36

I preached something that I didn't hear much of if anything at all in that movement I called people to repentance and faith in the biblical

27:44

Christ and and yet I know I was deceived I was deceived because I was part of a movement that I believe had

27:52

Not enough of the truth to be called legitimate a legitimate Christian movement

27:58

So if I was aware of the error and even back then in 1990 I was as you could see from what

28:03

I was writing How could I stay in the movement again? Because I thought you don't have to embrace everything that's being said by these guys by Kenneth Copeland or Kenneth Hagan if you're from Denmark, you might even just say

28:16

Copenhagen But no, I didn't I didn't embrace it. I thought they were out to lunch on a number of issues, but I stayed in and Believed and here's my deception that God was the healer of his people and that was one of his covenant names

28:37

We don't need to do a Bible study to know he is Jehovah Rapha or Yahweh Rapha Yahweh year a

28:45

Jehovah Jireh our provider and I believe that in all times and in all situations That's what he wanted to do.

28:51

He's made his way his will clear. He is the healer. He is the provider And I would define prosperity differently from many others

29:00

I would go with what I learned from Harry Greenwood prosperity is not how much you have but how much

29:06

God is able to Do by meeting your needs with sufficient leftovers so you can minister to others

29:13

It's not really a selfish thing, but that's certainly not what was promulgated by the movement. I thought I was a

29:19

Change agent within the movement. I stayed much longer than I should his here's what I believe would be the issue

29:25

It only takes a small amount of deadly poison to kill someone You don't normally go up to someone with a can marked poison and say try this

29:35

They're not that stupid, but should the poison be served under the bun of a delicious -looking hamburger another story and the deception in the movement was lurking under the surface and sometimes not even under the surface and At the heart of every deception

29:52

I believe is pride it was true in the Garden of Eden You don't need to have a God why you can become one the serpent said

29:59

Religious deception always seeks to in some way dethrone

30:04

God Elevate or even deify man and then add human merit or works to the gospel of grace

30:12

Those three things dethrone God elevate man and add works to grace of course if you do that you don't have grace at all and then gross error is often a

30:27

Truth Taken to an extreme if there was no truth whatsoever. No one would ever be deceived and Here's what

30:34

I've learned deceived people Deceive people if we ourselves are deceived and we really believe our deception

30:46

We will deceive others when we start talking about it The Lord is our healer.

30:52

He is our provider. What is the error of the health wealth the the faith movement?

30:58

What is wrong with faith for goodness sake? The answer is nothing at all if it's a biblical faith

31:05

Faith is a beautiful wonderful biblical word How can there be an error to believe

31:12

God's Word? Here's what I found out I was preaching one time in Sydney, Australia. It's interesting at some point

31:19

I was Preaching in a lot of conferences and other churches there were invites to go preach in many different places when you become reformed

31:26

It's not quite the same thing, but I was preaching in Sydney Australia and I preach on the subject of healing and the pastor afterwards was very friendly very very gentle with me at the time

31:38

But he said something that stays with me to this day. He said Johnny says

31:43

I believe you've got an over realized eschatology and people say you're what hurts. What did he just say?

31:48

He said you have an over realized Eschatology and I didn't really want to talk about it because I just thought well

31:55

I've left him the Word of God. It'll do its work. And one day he'll come to see my Wonderful reasoning and going to the scripture.

32:03

He bore our infirmities and carried our sicknesses and by his stripes. We were healed That'll say that in the morning.

32:09

I'm sure he'll read it. He'll come to agree with me But as I continued on I began to understand something of God's sovereignty in the year 2000

32:17

I write about that in the book that I wrote 12 whatabouts dr.

32:23

RC Sproul came to Scottsdale, Arizona I was impacted greatly on the subject of election if I would align all my theological

32:34

Concepts in a row under the Idea of election

32:39

I now became open Such as my depravity. I hadn't seen it before election was now under the canopy and the roof of The sovereignty of God I could see the sovereignty of God in the matter of salvation but in all other matters,

32:55

I Wasn't yet convinced that God was sovereign But when I began to study what the scripture says about sovereignty,

33:01

I realized that little roof over election Expands to cover every other subject.

33:07

He's sovereign in his mercy He's sovereign in everything he does

33:13

What is sovereignty? I define sovereignty as God does what he wants the way he wants when he wants without having to ask permission

33:20

That's pretty much it. He is in charge and As I read scriptures like Revelation 21, it tells us that there will be a day when

33:33

Everything will be alright. We could have a Pentecostal moment and sing a song right now. I believe it's going to be alright

33:39

Because Revelation 21 tells us the state of Christians in heaven

33:45

It says then I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth that passed away in the sea

33:51

Was no more and I saw the Holy City New Jerusalem Coming down out of heaven from God prepared as a bride adorned for a husband and I heard a loud voice

33:59

From the throne saying behold the dwelling place of God is with man He will dwell with them and they will be as people and God himself who will be with them as their

34:10

God now hear this He will wipe away every tear from their eyes and death shall be no more neither shall there be mourning m -o -u -r -n

34:20

Mourning grieving nor crying nor pain anymore for the former things have passed away

34:26

Question when do these things take place in the eternal state?

34:32

Not right now it's when Jesus comes back it's when he sets

34:39

Us free from this earthly Limitation to see heaven be there and enjoy the benefits and all death mourning sorrow

34:50

Sickness all of that will be something we'll have to look back on it will not be the experience of Christians in heaven

34:57

You'll not be finding a brother or sister walking on a wheelchair complaining about arthritis It won't be happening and I believe that Jesus paid for That by means of the cross it didn't just happen

35:12

Jesus bought and paid for all of our Deliverance from the evils and the effect of evil in this world

35:22

What is over realized eschatology? Those are big words the word Eschatology is a word that means the end times or end things the word eschatology means end times

35:35

Logos means word or the study of Eschatology is the study of the end times and everyone has one

35:43

Everyone believes something about future events Eschatology therefore is the word or the study of the end times and the

35:50

Bible has a lot to say about those things and Revelation 21 tells us when Jesus comes back

35:57

He will make everything right. He will restore not only us, but the entire universe to its intent by God So that's a promise to all the

36:08

Saints heavenly a place free from care stress pain sickness grief death

36:13

Praise God for that certain hope but an over realized Eschatology is an expectation that all of heaven's blessings will be available to us and is available to us in the here and now and that's

36:25

Just not true. That's just not true Someone might say but doesn't the Bible say the bi ble say he forgives all our sins and he heals all our diseases

36:35

Yes, it does Psalm 103 verse 3 So is it a deception to believe that he heals all our diseases what it is about that verse

36:44

John you don't believe I Do believe the verse I Believe another one too like in John chapter 10

36:51

It tells us it's the thief who comes to kill steal and destroy and that Jesus in contrast came to give us life

36:58

It does say that it even says he came to give us life more abundantly notice what it says

37:05

He came to give us life. It does not say he came to give us a certain type of lifestyle

37:13

Jesus never promised a storm free sickness free existence this side of heaven

37:21

But understand that though he forgives our sins and heals our diseases.

37:27

He's Lord over When that takes place But some Christians that will be in the here and now and for other

37:35

Christians It'll be when they see Jesus face to face and a lot of people will not accept that they will not accept that but I believe

37:44

Biblically they don't have a ground to stand on because of what the Bible says Here's a concept we have to have in place if we're going to be sound

37:54

Christians we need to believe in the sovereignty of God You know, that is a concept hated detested in the faith camp

38:05

I Want to play a little clip here by Andrew Womack now Andrew Womack was someone who came regularly to the church that I pastored in Phoenix.

38:15

I say what I'm saying without any animosity whatsoever Andrew Womack is someone who stayed in my home more than once and Yet he and I are as divided on this issue now as can be.

38:27

Let me just play a little clip. I'm Going to hopefully the right place and pressing the right button.

38:34

Here we go No, I was not the right button I love technology when it works, here we go, oh it says get video

38:51

URL it's Going to the right place hitting

39:03

First thing I want to deal with tonight and if you're new to me have mercy on me.

39:09

Amen Because I'm gonna offend you right off the bat But in my estimation the worst doctrine that is prevalent in the body of Christ today and That just completely voids all of these things about God being a good

39:27

God is the wrong teaching on the sovereignty of God That God controls everything that God just supernaturally controls that nothing can happen without either

39:39

God Initiating it or allowing giving permission to the devil and allowing the devil to do it and I'll just stop there.

39:48

I think that's enough The problem with that is a God is not sovereign Actually is not

39:54

God at all. He's not the God of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation He is the

40:02

Lord God omnipotent who reigns Revelation 19 6 the stakes are high in this

40:08

Andrew Womack and I are serving two different gods You have to decide which one is the true

40:14

God But we're not serving the same one. The God of Andrew Womack is not sovereign the one

40:21

I believe in is God does what he wants when he wants the way he wants never has to ask for permission

40:30

Nebuchadnezzar was one man who got the Lord's Prayer just slightly wrong. He got one word wrong He said mine is the kingdom the power and the glory and God Said you know what?

40:40

I think it's time for a Bible lesson and in a day the man went from being

40:46

Fairly sane man, although praying that kind of thing or saying that kind of thing about himself Leads you to question that but within moments.

40:54

He lost his sanity and was acting like a cow in his own palace gardens and That went on for seven years

41:02

Until God says, all right, that's enough. I'm gonna lift this fuzzy state of cow -ness over you

41:10

From off of you and I'm gonna restore sanity and then he wrote them first tract in History and wrote it to everyone in his

41:19

Empire telling the fact in Daniel chapter 4 the God the God of Israel is the true God and he reigns and does whatever he pleases

41:28

God didn't have to wait for the man's free will he just Interposed his will on the situation

41:35

People in the modern -day faith movement pride themselves on being word people Facing their thinking on the

41:41

Bible they believe however in reality and this is true of me looking back in Reality, they are favorite word people

41:50

They embrace certain promises God makes in his word while at the same time Either flatly denying or willfully ignoring others.

41:59

They love this promises to speak of health and wealth There's an obscene amount of wealth in The Copeland family.

42:10

He has his own Airport Airport, they love certain scriptures, but you'll not hear some of these mentioned in a faith

42:26

Church first Christ Chronicles first Chronicles 29 11 Blessed are you

42:32

O Lord the God of Israel our father forever and ever yours O Lord is the greatness and the power and the glory and the

42:38

Victory and the majesty for all that is in the heavens and the earth is yours yours is the kingdom

42:44

O Lord You are exalted as head over all Both riches and honor come from you and you rule over all in your hand our power and might and in your hand it is

42:54

To make great and to give strength to all and now we thank you our God and praise your glorious name

43:00

Riches and honor come from you. You rule over all that's sovereignty. I Heard someone say sovereignty the word sovereignty is not in the

43:09

Bible. Well Depends what version you're using but it's all over the Bible. It's a concept you find from Genesis to Revelation Deuteronomy 32 39 see now that I even

43:20

I God says I'm he and there is no God beside me I kill and I make alive

43:26

I Wound and I heal and there is none that can deliver out of my hand

43:31

You allow for a God who can do that faith camp won't the faith camp will never say that God kills

43:37

He makes alive, but he doesn't kill It's the devil who kills and steals and destroys doesn't the

43:43

New Testament tell us that yes And Luther would say even the devil is God's devil God has a purpose even in evil taking place.

43:51

He's not the author of evil But he certainly allows and has planned that evil takes place and he will work good out of it

43:58

How do we know that something called the cross? It's the most evil event that ever happened on planet earth and God is working the most good for this universe out of that evil

44:06

Event and that was an event planned before the foundation of the world Job 9 12

44:13

Oh Job Behold he snatches away who can turn him back who will say to him.

44:19

What are you doing? Job 12 6 through 10 the tents of robbers are at peace and those who provoke

44:25

God are secure who bring their God in their hand But ask the beast and they will teach you the birds of the heaven

44:30

They will teach you or the bushes of the earth and they will teach you and the fish of the sea will declare to you Who among all these does not know that the hand of the

44:38

Lord has done this in? His hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind

44:44

Paul wrote in or Luke wrote in the book of Acts quoting Paul and his preaching at Mars Hill in Him we live and move and have our being you can't even lift your hand to defy

44:56

God Unless God allowed you to you can't move without him Unless God is in it a sparrow doesn't fall to the ground, which is probably the most insignificant thing in the ancient world

45:09

They had no knowledge of what we would find through the microscope Just a sparrow falling to the ground insignificant that doesn't happen

45:18

Jesus said apart from your father Psalm 115 3 our God is in the heavens.

45:24

He does all that he pleases Notice it never says a man is in the earth or on the earth

45:30

He does all that he pleases many of the plans in a man's heart, but it's the Lord's purpose that will prevail

45:37

Psalm 135 6 whatever the Lord pleases He gets frustrated no whatever the

45:43

Lord pleases he does in heaven and on earth in the seas and all deeps in Job 38 8 when he

45:51

God asked Job rhetorically who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb and said thus

45:57

Far shall you come and no father and here shall your proud waves be stayed question

46:03

Who did that? God says I did that Was God just being poetic was he simply filling space up in our

46:12

Bibles to fool us with the pretense He's actually in charge of things charge of the waters the waves

46:20

Didn't Jesus rebuke the winds and waves Couldn't he do that now if he wants to Did he lose something since the time of the

46:30

Gospels? No, he says all authority is given to me in heaven and here on earth

46:37

Psalm 89 8 through 9. Oh Lord you rule the raging of the sea When its waves rise you still them

46:46

Question did God lose this kind of power now in our enlightened intellectual and sophisticated age because we can map it on Satellite did

46:56

God release his sovereignty in some way because we can see what a tsunami is doing

47:06

Even if Satan caused the earthquake could God have stopped it is he powerless

47:12

The God of the Bible actually rules and reigns not even a sparrow falls to the ground Except God's involved

47:19

Amos asked this question does disaster come to a city unless the Lord has done it Amos chapter 3 verse 6

47:25

Oh, that's not a verse you want to quote around a faith church If we had any doubts as to the answer these doubts are forever expelled in Isaiah 457 where the

47:34

Lord says I form light and create darkness. I make well -being and create calamity. I Am the

47:40

Lord who does all these things we want to protect God from? Well, we want to protect him from the idea that he's behind everything and God says hey

47:49

I can handle it I'll take responsibility. I Am the

47:55

Lord who does all these things? Evil is here and God is in a sense ordained it and Yet he has a good purpose in it men have bad evil purposes

48:07

God has good purposes just as we found out in the story of Joseph Genesis chapter 50

48:14

You meant it for evil the brothers God meant it the same events the exact same events for good a

48:25

God who is powerless To prevent a tsunami is not the God of the

48:30

Bible plain and simple in Desiring to shield God from scrutiny those who propagate the idea that God could not prevent a tsunami

48:41

Have fled to the false refuge of an idol. It's idolatry and Let me say it the

48:48

God of the faith camp If you really do not embrace the sovereignty of God is an idol

48:55

When you have a false God you have a false gospel, I remember two events that took place

49:05

Early on in my ministry in the United States as a pastor a young boy aged 3 somehow managed sadly to fall and get through a

49:18

Railing on the third story of an apartment complex here in Phoenix He fell headfirst onto solid concrete

49:27

We were called immediately Raced to the hospital when I got there the father and the mother of the child were just frantic as you can imagine when the

49:38

Ambulance people when the medics arrived there was no breathing of the little boy

49:43

There was no pulse found and we were just walking pacing up and down in the outside the operation room

49:50

And as you can imagine praying to God asking God for a miracle for this little lad Two hours later a doctor emerged shaking their head and their father and mother said is he alive?

50:00

Is he like? Yes, he's alive. Yes. He's alive and he was shaking his head and he said this I have no way to explain it

50:06

But we spent the last hour and a half two hours trying to find something wrong with this boy.

50:12

Not only is he alive But we found no Internal injuries, we're gonna keep him overnight just for observation, but really we could release him now.

50:22

There's nothing wrong with him He was so excited. We rejoiced Can you imagine that Sunday as a church just rejoicing with this little one in our congregation there in our service?

50:33

Acting like he he was the the week before just amazing and guess what within a week within a week

50:40

Got another call this time from a family who again were frantic and their teenage daughter

50:48

Named Faith was involved in a horse riding accident She fell off the horse but sadly her feet were one of her fit for one of her feet were caught up in the stirrups and her head was dragged along the roadside and she was dead on the scene and And She wasn't raised she was not

51:13

Helped at all by our prayers in the sense of we didn't see any result this time And that was our first funeral as a church and it was so hard for us

51:23

Because it was so close to this other event in time The contrast was obvious what a difference between one

51:33

Sunday and the next and that was the the hardest funeral I think I ever took as a as a young Pastor at the time early 90s about 1994.

51:43

I think this was made 1995 perhaps and The verse

51:48

I used at the funeral was Deuteronomy 29 29 the secret things Belong to the Lord our

51:53

God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever But in the back of my mind,

51:59

I thought what did we do? What didn't we do you see in that faith camp?

52:04

There's bondage there's religious bondage Because you think something you did or didn't do something you said or didn't say let the devil in.

52:16

I Went to in fact, I officiated at a funeral couple years ago where a young man in his 20s was was was dead after being in the army and Suffocated on his own vomit

52:32

Terrible situation and I was trying to console the family and the parents, but they were thinking

52:38

What did we do to let the devil in they still had that mentality? Let me say this

52:45

God is sovereign even in his promises I have no doubt he will fulfill every promise he's ever made in the scripture

52:51

But he remains Lord and sovereign over when he fulfills them But some healing comes in this life brothers it happens the moment they see him face to face

53:01

Heaven is pain and sickness free and Jesus bought the healing for us

53:06

I believe healing is in the atonement of Christ He took on all of the issues of humanity and bore them at the cross our sin our sickness the curse death all of it

53:18

But he's Lord over when it takes place God is a provider

53:25

And heaven will be a place of provision I Can imagine a man going to heaven trying to stack his bag with gold as he gets there and an angel saying why are you

53:35

Bringing sidewalk up here We don't need that streets of gold here, sir Jesus has secured every blessing

53:43

Imaginable for the people of God yet. He remains Lord over all including when each

53:49

Saint experiences experiencing when when each Satan experiences the blessings he has won for us looking back and We're running short of time here, but looking back.

54:00

I was not able to help some people It's as a pastor in the faith movement. I saw many healings, but I also officiated many funerals

54:08

While the healings were wonderful, and I see just as many healings now because God does answer prayer

54:15

God is so gracious. I was not able to provide any help for some families Who lost a loved one

54:21

I'd prepared them for healing, but I had not prepared them for death My theology prevented me from speaking about death

54:28

You know why because the concept of the faith camp is your words create reality one of their favorite verses is

54:36

Proverbs 18 21 death and life's in the power of the tongue And those who love it will eat its fruit well

54:43

I believe that verse But I don't believe the theology that springs from that verse in the faith camp

54:49

The verse is speaking about how words can lift people up or tear them down It can be something in the main we all know we'd love some of our words

54:57

We could be able to take them back because they've done so much damage But what if faith people understand those words in a very wooden literal way to mean that if a person mentions death

55:09

Real death then that opens the devil's door or the door to the devil and he can bring death

55:17

Never should we ever say that tickle me to death you can't say that in the faith camp You can't say

55:23

I'm dying to see you That will let the devil in You got to say you tickle me to life

55:30

You can't say I'm sick of that. I'm I'm sick of this or I'm sick of that no no no no you can't say that you

55:37

I'm getting sick. I'm getting a cold. No you can't say that You'll you'll just enforce or empower the devil to bring that Really is that your view of God is he is he that?

55:51

Powerless oh no God has given you man authority on the earth you'll have what you say

55:58

Really, it's a legalistic bondage. Maybe if I confess the word more

56:03

God would have been Able because his hands were tied behind his back because of your because of my words

56:09

God wasn't able to do What he wanted to do faith camp cannot handle a book of Job They hate the statement the

56:21

Lord gave and the Lord has taken away blessed be the name of the Lord Oh, no, no, no the devil kills the devil takes away

56:29

Luther was right even the devil is God's devil oh The theological ducking weaving and mental gymnastics that has to take place for word of people to talk about the book of Job But it's a book about sovereignty

56:43

That's what the message of the book is He's the Lord. He's the healer. He's the provider, and he is love and he's our peace, and he's sovereign

56:53

Overall I am so glad that God opened my eyes To see my over realized eschatology big words, but I hope you get the concept

57:05

He is Lord over when he fulfills his promises to us, but he will he's faithful and true

57:11

Here are some quotes from al -mawla as I wrap this up problem with prosperity theology is not that it promises too much

57:19

But it aims for so little Prosperity theology certainly sells books and draws crowds in the

57:25

United States But what does it possibly say to a grieving Christian wife and mother in Iraq? How can it possibly be squared with the actual message in the

57:34

New Testament? How can any sinner be saved without a clear presentation of sin redemption the cross?

57:40

The empty tomb and a call to faith and repentance Prosperity theology fails every test and fails every test miserably it is a false gospel

57:50

And one that must be repudiated not merely reformatted if our message

58:00

Cannot be preached with credibility in Mosul. It should not be preached in Houston that is the

58:08

Joel Osteen Predicament the true gospel you can preach anywhere you can preach the law of God and the gospel of God everywhere because that's the truth

58:20

I Hope that these words Will mean something to you and hopefully be helpful to you

58:27

Let me end with a quote from CH Spurgeon There is no attribute of God more comforting to his children than the doctrine of divine sovereignty

58:36

Under the most adverse circumstances in the most severe troubles they believe that sovereignty hath ordained their afflictions

58:42

That sovereignty overrules them and that sovereignty will sanctify them all

58:48

There is nothing for which the children of God ought more earnestly to contend than the dominion of their master over all creation

58:55

The kingship of God over all the works of his hands the throne of God and his right to sit upon that throne on the other hand on the other hand

59:04

There is no doctrine more hated by worldlings. Those are people of the world, but worldly Christians to so -called

59:13

No doctrine more hated by worldlings. No truth of which they have made such a football as the great stupendous

59:19

But yet most certain doctrine of the sovereignty of the infinite Jehovah men will allow God to be everywhere except on his throne

59:26

They will allow him to be in his workshop to fashion worlds and to make stars They will allow him to be in his almonery to dispense his arms and bestow his bounties they will allow him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof or Light the lamps of heaven or rule the waves of the ever -moving ocean but when

59:43

God ascends his throne his creatures and gnash their teeth and when we proclaim an enthroned

59:51

God and His right to do as he wills with his own to dispose of his creatures as he thinks well without Consulting them in the matter then it is that we are hissed and Execrated and that it is that men turn a deaf ear to us for God on his throne is not the

01:00:09

God They love they love him anywhere better than they do when he sits with his scepter in his hand and his crown upon his head but It is

01:00:20

God upon the throne that we love to preach. It is God upon his throne whom we trust

01:00:27

Ch Spurgeon, I agree. Thank you for listening do pray please for dr.

01:00:33

James Wyden for this ministry Thank you for watching. God bless you as you walk in the light of his holy word

01:00:40

John I just want to also mention that folks keep in mind we are still raising money for the

01:00:45

South Africa trip coming up and Just keep that in your mind. So go from there.