James Coates on God vs. Government

Well, welcome everyone once again to the conversations that matter podcast, I'm your host, John Harris as always.

And I am very excited actually to have the guests we have with us today. We have Pastor James Coates from Grace Life Church in Edmonton, which is in Alberta, Canada.

And he actually has a new book out, we're going to talk about this book. And he tells some of his story and what he's what he's learned and what he liked other

Christians to know in a book called God versus government. And, and I just read this recently, it's also an audible,

I like to do my reading my listening, I guess on audible, as much as I can, it was, it was very well done.

But there's a lot of really good stuff in here. So Pastor Coates, thank you for joining me and being willing to discuss this with everyone.

Yeah, John, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. So I want to just ask you, first of all, the book, what was we want to get into your story and everything.

But what was the thinking behind writing this down? Did you just think that others, did you sense the church was ill equipped to handle the

COVID scenario and that for the future you wanted to give here some biblical principles? Was that the thinking or what motivated you?

Well, Nathan Busenitz was the one that that approached me about joining him in this venture. And the need for it was obvious.

I mean, number one, the story of Grace Community Church and all they went through, plus our story and all we went through, those were stories that that needed to be told because they really do provide a wonderful example of gospel courage.

So there was that. In addition, I think the COVID -19 situation clearly exposed the church's weakness in the the area of ecclesiology, as well as even our relationship to the governing authorities.

Romans 13 was just kind of quoted as it was sort of matter of fact, obvious that given what it says there, we have to comply with the governing authorities as it relates to their reaching inside the walls of the church and dictating the terms of worship.

So so it was clear that we needed to address this. And so when I was asked by Nathan to be involved in it, it was an easy, an easy project to be involved in, for sure.

Yeah, and you most of this, I think so it was you and Nathan, most of it, though,

I think is is you most. So there's a few chapters Nathan wrote and then it's your story, a lot of it and and biblical principles for how to deal with a similar situation if it were to come.

I found your tone to be just very humble. And you you even admit in certain places in the book that you've kind of you learned through this process.

Why don't you tell us a little bit about that and maybe include some highlights? I think a lot of us are familiar with your story, but for those who aren't, kind of what happened and then what did you learn as a result of going through what you went through?

Well, I think like everyone, when this all began, we we knew Romans 13, we had

Hebrews 10, 25, we we saw these verses already in tension, these passages in tension with each other.

When the pandemic first began, there was certainly skepticism around the government's competence to be able to control an invisible agent like a virus.

And so so there was already at the outset some some tension for us. We didn't we didn't comply with the governing authorities with this this sense of joy.

We did so recognizing that, you know what, it could come that that this is going to be an issue.

We're going to have to take a stand on this. And so that was there from the get go. And we complied for the first few months until the the the initial health emergency ended.

And in that time, we were gathering, obviously, data with respect to the severity of the virus and whether the measures were even necessary at all, whether they were effective, but then also wrestling with the ecclesiology of it all.

I mean, we had a sound and robust ecclesiology, but this was testing some features that that that needed to be, you know, eyes dotted, teeth crossed, not being able to sing because the government tells you you can't sing and and then you got to be socially distanced.

You can't you can't actually fellowship and one another sort of next to each other, even even give a hug.

You got capacity limits and and now we're we're carving the body up into smaller segments.

And does that have an impact on on the means of grace and the building up of the body of Christ that takes place through those means?

And so all of these issues needed to be considered. And and then furthermore, I mean, given the fact that Jesus is

Lord and has authority over the church and really over every human realm, every sphere of authority, does the government have the authority to come in and tell the church what it can and cannot do?

And then and then once you kind of settled that and we did, you get into wanting to make sure that you're seeing things correctly on the science end of it.

And one of the critiques of the book is, you know, by even bringing that into the focus, into the focus, you're you're diminishing the the real impetus for this argument, because really it's all about the authority of Christ is hegemon with the church.

And that's that's true. At the same time, you know, the truth speaks to everything.

And so you want to be able to holistically deal with every angle of a situation that you're in.

And that's where I think it is appropriate to make sure that you've got a handle on the the medical side of it, the science side of it.

And then from there, we had to get into the legal side of it. I mean, what protections do we have in the context of the

Charter of Rights and Freedoms here in Canada and dealing with that? And it's interesting, I'll tell this, I didn't show this in the book, but I think it's helpful.

There was a point where we had settled the theology of it. And this was when we were open. This was this was after the first health emergency.

It's now the fall of 2020 before everything was about to heat up. And and we had kind of settled the theology of it.

And then we kind of shifted and we're dealing with the legal side of it and making sure that, you know, the medical side of it was was nailed down as well.

And and I had a moment where I had to pause because the medical side of it, we had nailed the the the legal side of it.

We had nailed. We had we had informed ourselves on that. We were we were educated. But I had been focusing on those pieces.

And those are not reasons to take the stand. I mean, that's that's not why you would do this. That's not compelling.

And so having kind of shifted in my focus to those features, which was necessary,

I'd gotten away from the theological convictions for why we were doing this. And and as things were beginning to heat up just on the cusp of it,

I had to take a time out and go like, hang on a second, why are we doing this? Why are we taking this stand? And I had to revisit the theological convictions for why that was, even to the point that my wife was uncomfortable.

She's like, this is that you're making me nervous here. I mean, if you if you close the church again, we're going to have some difficulties in our marriage kind of a thing, you know.

And I just said, I just need to go through this. And it took a few days. And then by the end of that week, you know,

I had revisited all of the reasons theologically on why we couldn't do this. The ecclesiology, obviously the the headship of Christ, the the government piece.

And and that was necessary to ensure that when we take this stand, we're doing it for the right reasons, because, again,

Christ's glory, his authority, his headship, the biblical justification for a stand like this is the only reason why you would the medicine side of it, the the legal side of it.

That's just that's peripheral. It's secondary. And and so, you know, we we had our ecclesiology strengthened.

We had our our theology of Romans 13 strengthened. All the raw material was there, but we just needed a context to sharpen those tools.

And and that's what this season did. And and we were able to do that by God's grace. So you and for those who aren't familiar with the story, it got to the point where you actually went to jail over your stand to keep the church open.

And you talk about that in your book. You talk about sort of the humiliation they put you through.

One of the big objections, though, that we saw, I think universally from even other Christians was that you're going to be a bad witness if you open up your church.

That's going to make the all the people who aren't Christians think that you don't care about their lives.

You're willing to spread a virus. You're I just want to ask you, sitting where you're sitting now after this whole event has come to an end, have you found that this has opened the doors to more witnessing encounters and positive

Christian influence or or did it, as some of the people who made that critique said, did it drive people away and make them think that you must not care about their lives?

Which was it? Well, I would say that the the opportunities for gospel preaching and for the gospel to go beyond the the sphere of influence that I had prior to this battle with covid -19 and just the testimony of our church in the context of the gospel.

I mean, it's it's exponentially increased. And so we've seen people come to Christ through this.

We've seen people grow and be sanctified through this. And and, you know, built into that question is a bit of a misnomer.

This this idea that our testimony is is this this being liked or esteemed by the culture around us is totally unbiblical and misguided.

Jesus is so clear in John 15 that the world hates us. We are not of the world.

And because we are not of the world, the world hates us. And then there are opportunities that come practically like this where where you're now called to be the church and it exposes that you are of the light and you're you're you're standing out clear in the darkness and the darkness.

Yeah, there's going to be people that are hostile to that. But but that's that's where you have now an opportunity to testify to the death and resurrection of Christ.

And that is our testimony. It's not it's not that we would be esteemed and liked and and and appreciated as though that would that would lend itself to opportunities for the gospel.

Nowhere to be faithful and obedient to Christ in a world that hates us. And as we are, there are going to be circumstances like this where we can now we can now testify to the excellencies of Christ and even that the the world's deeds are evil.

And that's our testimony, the death and resurrection of Christ, not not this this being esteemed.

So so really, you know, our testimony, our lives are they are to lend credibility to the transforming power of the gospel and the transforming power of the gospel is a is a is a power that that lends itself to an obedient life, a life where you follow

Christ even unto death. Well, I would say that Grace Life modeled that we we completely modeled that.

And so, yeah, I think, you know, on a sort of a pragmatic level, there's no question

I think it resulted in God's glory being being on display for many to see

Christians and non. The gospel went forth with power and clarity. People were saved and sanctified.

But even that aside, it wouldn't change it. We had to be faithful to Christ. And he called us to that stand and and he gave us the grace to take that stand.

And and, you know, just as an aside, I look back even now, having taken that stand and there's such satisfaction in my heart that we did.

I'm so, so blessed in my inner man that we did not miss that opportunity. And so I give

God the glory for that. And just I'm thankful that he gave us that that moment. Yeah, praise

God. You know, one of the things that I've been known, I guess, for critiquing to some extent is the this attitude of trying to please the world and mostly the places of influence, you know, the entertainment industry, politics, education, places that are really pushing more of a socialist agenda and trying to somehow match

Christ with that in some way so that they'll like us. And so this is kind of the zeitgeist.

But what you did, I thought was interesting in the book, the stand you took, which was totally for Christ. It wasn't a political stand.

You make that very clear. You weren't trying to be a right wing leader or I mean, I guess they had made you out as some media person and made you out to be a white supremacist and an insurrectionist and all all the things that people to on that are more conservative get called.

But you you did this for the right reason. And then I suspect doors were opened to you in the more secular in the world, but the more secular conservative circles where they're they care about their freedom, their personal freedom and economic freedom.

But they don't know Jesus. And now here's a pastor who's standing up for some of those things.

But because the reason you're doing is because you love Jesus, did that give you an influence in those circles?

Have you been on news shows or have have you had invitations from more political conservative groups to talk to them?

And then have you been able to share the gospel? You know, I remember coming out of prison and and I think there were like that I had recorded thirty five requests for opportunities to go on radio and TV and everything else.

And and I didn't even get to, I think, half of those because my life was happening at such a torrent pace at that point in time.

And I look back and there's a couple of shows that I would have liked to have been on because it would have provided a great platform to be able to do that.

A lot of the requests that have come have really come from like since then the

Christian community. There hasn't been a ton of opportunity that I can recall in this moment where I've been able to speak to the secular world about these things.

So I nothing's coming to mind right now that has has provided that. But but the whole world was watching.

I mean, you know, the the secular community was watching this. And I think a lot of folks recognize that that that our stand was really instrumental, even in the context of our province, to move the dial and and and assert the civil liberties that are rightly ours by God given right and even by the

Charter of Rights and Freedoms. And so so I think there there's no doubt been an impact at that level.

Well, I know while you were in prison, I think I saw a clip of I think it was your wife and like a back of a pickup truck or something talking to some protesters sharing the gospel with them.

And and I know some protesters had gone to your church who were not sanctioned by the church at all, but they they saw what they were doing with the double fences and everything as a as I guess a flashpoint for them to to go.

And so I just I thought that was fascinating to me. You actually had people who wouldn't be necessarily Christians rallying to your defense.

Do you feel in the community you live in now? Are you it's kind of an odd question,

I guess, maybe, but better, better able to serve them or more known in the community?

Have you gained more respect with the people around you or as a result of any of this?

I do tend to think that we have earned the respect of our provincial government.

I think everyone knows who we are. I think that we demonstrated that our stand was theological in nature, that it was that it was revolving around Christ, that it wasn't a freedom fight, that it wasn't about fighting for civil liberties, that that we weren't seeking attention or glory or trying to build a platform or anything like that.

I think we've demonstrated that we're authentic and the real deal. And so I think that that certainly has happened.

It's hard for me to feel the impact in my community because there are some

I mean, it's a polarizing issue. So there are some that love us, some that hate us. You either love us or you hate us. When I'm out and about, even in my own city, it's hard to figure out whether people recognize me or not.

I do get recognized from time to time. And so it's just difficult.

How aware are the citizens of our of our city, you know, and do they know all that took place?

But but I do think there's no question that that there's a there's a respect and integrity that we've established as a result of our stand that I believe will have lasting a lasting impact.

Yes, in the broader community, for sure. And certainly as it relates to the governing authorities,

I mean, I've had some interaction with the government since then that I that I initiated based on a third declared public health emergency and wanting to to chart a less divisive pathway forward at that time.

This is going back to September 2021. And and I got a response and I was able to interact with them on that.

So so, yeah, I think I think there is a greater respect. I still think it's a polarizing issue, although I do believe that as the information continues to roll in, it becomes more and more evident that what what happened during the pandemic was clearly government overreach.

Well, you know, it's when we were in that time period and by the way, how long again were you in prison?

Thirty five days. Thirty five days, man. And that must have felt so lonely by the especially towards the end of that to be away from your family that long.

You know, it's amazing. Like I'm so far removed from that now. It seems like a distant memory.

And it did for thirty five days. It went by pretty quickly as you know, with with hindsight being what it is.

Obviously, I missed my family, but I was able to connect with my wife basically every day and multiple times.

So she was a huge support. And those conversations were were a huge lifeline. You would think time would go incredibly slow in prison.

I didn't find that it went that slowly, in all honesty. So loneliness wasn't really something that I felt of all the things that I that I did feel.

That's not one thing that stands out to me. There were there were other there were other things that I think

I was feeling I'd have to really get back into my mindset of being in that place to to be to appreciate them again.

Well, you have you mentioned your wife, your wife, from everything I've seen, seems to be very supportive of you.

You have a church that seems to be very supportive, a good, solid leadership before this ever took place.

You guys were on basically the same page and supportive of one another.

And and then, of course, there were those groups that were supportive of you when you were in prison that saw this as a kind of a flashpoint.

But I think a lot of pastors at that time were feeling very isolated. And I'm sure you felt that initially where they just and what they were being told from a lot of the organizations that they had once perhaps trusted was that you need to just because Romans 13 says to submit, you just need to submit, close your church down, do

Zoom church, whatever regulations they put in place to open back up, make sure that you do the social distancing, the masks, all of that.

And and and this has been an issue, I think, for for many pastors that I know of actually, where they just did not know what to do.

And part of it was they didn't feel they had any support anywhere. And if if they were even to inch out with with a little courage on this, what would their elder board say?

What would even would they have a drop in giving? Would they meet perhaps the disfavor of people that are influential in their denomination?

And and I get the sense from you that you you had that local support.

But did you feel at all at the time that there was a great amount of pressure coming from maybe some of the things, areas that I just talked about that that you had to consider and that made it harder in a way to make the stand that you made from the

Christian community that factored in a ton? We. I think if we were unsure of the stand that we were taking, then like I know we were on a

Zoom call with like 90 pastors in our province, literally like the second declared emergency was in place and and lockdowns were now on, it was down to third capacity.

And we were coming together to decide how we might as a group chart this this this this this new lockdown and the group that was on there because the premier had given us a third capacity was pretty pleased with that.

They thought, you know what, he's deeming us essential by giving us third capacity. So we're not we're going to comply and be thankful for the third capacity piece.

Whereas we were already settled on like, no, like that third capacity is not is not going to jive.

So I wasn't like a voice on that call. I was just kind of a silent, you know, passenger on that call.

When we got off the call, there was no support. Did I feel alone in that moment? I mean, no.

Did I feel a little bit disappointed? Maybe because had we come together as a group and decided we were going to keep our churches open,

I mean, we could have had a huge impact. I mean, had we all decided together publicly? We're not closing our doors.

We're going to keep them open. Whoever wants to come can come. I mean, that would have had a massive impact in our province.

Huge. But, you know, we knew what we needed to do. And regardless of whether or not there was support elsewhere, we were going to do it.

Now, at that particular point in time, Grace Community Church had come out with its statement in July and they were open and they were in a battle.

So they they kind of they trailblazed it for us a little bit different jurisdiction, different country.

But nevertheless, they were they were already in the battle as well. And so we weren't alone in that sense.

So we knew we had support. And, you know, I'm a master's seminary grad. So having support from your seminary, that does go a long way.

There's no question. I mean, we're not in a denomination, but there is an accountability that comes from that.

And so you want to have their support for sure. Had I not had the support, would that have changed anything?

No, but it certainly felt better to have it. There's no question. So I think

I think we didn't ever really feel alone. And what everybody else was doing didn't matter a ton.

We knew what we needed to do and we had the conviction to do it. OK, that right there, though, what you just said is that's so important to me.

And that's the big thing in this whole story to me that sets what you what you did and a few others like you apart from so many others.

And this is the thing that I think is beneficial. Where does that courage come from? That conviction to stand, to take, to even go to jail?

I mean, is this just in your private prayer life and you're just you're in tune with the Lord, plus the support of your family and your like, what is it that what what ingredient made that possible for you to go through that?

You know, I've been thinking about that a little bit and trying to sharpen it and crystallize it, it comes down to obedience.

And. To intentionally disobey

Christ. Is is is setting yourself on a path where you are opening yourself up to a ton of uncertainty, potentially discipline, violating your conscience, you're you're going down a road that is if you have the fear of God in you is fearful, whereas if you know what

Christ is calling you to do and you obey him and you begin to walk that path, you're you're in God's will, you're in the safety of his providence so that even as you're going to jail and going through all of these issues, you know,

God is sovereign, you know, he is good. You're you're entrusting yourself to him who judges righteously.

I mean, that's where you'd rather be to to be there. And suffering is a much better place to be than in a a sort of false manufactured safety that avoided the difficulty.

But now you've got your conscience stinging you. What what are you charting?

What are you sowing by doing that to the flesh? What are you going to reap as a result of that?

What's that going to mean now for your own pursuit of holiness and devotion to Christ and the other opportunities that you're given to to take the right stand?

And then beyond that, even as I continue to flesh this out as a preacher, you know,

I just spoke with someone recently just within a day or two of this discussion, and they their their their church remained closed.

Their pastor just preached on suffering for Christ and and and the gentleman, this is kind of secondhand, expressed how hollow it sound.

It sounded, you know, so here's a pastor who kept his church closed. Romans 13.

And now he's talking about suffering for Christ. And you're going like, really? So so, you know, for me, like even preaching

Daniel three, and I've gotten some pushback for this preaching Daniel three and and not being willing to bow your knee to the to the golden statue.

I want to be able to preach that with full conviction, without my conscience stinging me and going like, well, what about that time when you didn't when you didn't when you did bow the knee, you know, and you didn't take the stand you were called to take.

I don't want to have to avoid Daniel three or or have to preach it with a little less conviction because, you know,

I I didn't stand when I was called to stand. So, you know, it's just I would prefer to suffer knowing that I'm being obedient to Christ, then then disobey him, avoid the suffering and then chart that path of uncertainty.

I don't even know where that's going to go and lead. Did you find that your walk with the

Lord was strengthened or closer through this time? Did the Lord give extra grace? And then when you came out and were reunited with your church, did you seem did you feel as though the fellowship between you was sweeter or stronger than it was before as a result of this?

Yeah, my mind goes in a couple of different directions. I mean, there's no question that going through the season that we did leading up to my imprisonment had an impact.

I mean, it was putting everything in perspective, you know, in terms of seeing our earthly lives as they are and our eternal lives as they are and beginning to kiss the world goodbye, as it were, as far as, you know, the things that you would you would hold dear your family, you know, your home, because it's your safe haven from the world.

I mean, all those things. So that was certainly a preparatory time leading up to my imprisonment.

The time during the imprisonment was difficult spiritually because I was away from all of the means of grace.

I wasn't with the body. I wasn't under the preaching of God's word. I had a

Bible and I could certainly pray, but even a chunk of that time was spent, you know, with a cellmate that makes it a little bit difficult.

I don't know about you to have a really intimate time with the Lord devotionally. So spiritually, it was a challenge for sure in prison.

It wasn't a romantic spiritual experience, although there were certainly times of joy and intense excitement and discouragement and fear and all kinds of different things.

When I got out, man, that's a hard that's a hard thing to get into there, too, because the world had changed, not not with respect to COVID -19.

I mean, that was the same. But but I went in to prison anonymous. I came out, you know, almost with like worldwide notoriety.

So so I had to adjust to this whole new set of circumstances that I was coming into.

But as far as the fellowship from the body, I mean, the love and affection, I would say that when when when

I think about being back with the body and having just come out, the love and affection that they have for me has increased exponentially because they know

I'm willing to lay my life down for them. And and as a pastor, you know, you're faithfully ministering to them and you want to earn their trust.

And and and John MacArthur talks a lot about that, how how earning that trust lends itself to love and affection.

And and and so so to to be able to to lay my my life down for them so they could worship the

Lord Jesus Christ together as one body. When when I got out, yeah, there's no question that their their love and appreciation for me and I think even their trust in me increased exponentially, which just makes the the shepherding experience for both them and myself sweeter and their love and affection for each other certainly grew and increased as well, particularly while I was in prison, that the the testimony that I received from what was taking place in our church during my imprisonment was significant the way that it drew the body together.

And our church is already a healthy, close, fellowshipping, vibrant body of believers.

But this certainly took it to the next level. There's no question. Yeah, praise God. What kinds of things would

I mean, you wrote these down, obviously, in your book here, but, you know, what kinds of things would you want

Christians to know about some of the common objections that existed before you did what you did?

So Romans 13 being one of those objections, we already kind of addressed the love your neighbor thing a little bit.

But, you know, what are the like the big flaws that you would say if you only had a few minutes to share with someone who was under under that spell, so to speak?

What would you tell them from God's word that to help them navigate it better? Well, I think for one, when it comes to the definition of persecution, the word inherently means to be oppressed for one's beliefs.

And your beliefs are always going to intersect with real life, what you believe is going to shape how you live.

So if we believe that we need to keep our church open to be obedient to Christ, and that is met with opposition and oppression, which it was, it meets the biblical definition of persecution, which means that persecution, by definition, isn't even reserved for Christians.

I mean, you can go to China, and there's a sect of Muslims that I believe are being oppressed there for their beliefs.

Well, that's persecution. Now, it's not persecution for Christ or for the truth, but nevertheless, they're coming up against oppression for their beliefs.

So so I think we need to broaden what we understand persecution to be. And that lends itself to the second piece, which is it's not merely the forbidding of preaching the gospel.

I mean, Acts 5 has been basically turned into so long as you can preach the gospel, you're okay.

As soon as the governing authorities tell you can't preach the gospel, that's when persecution begins. And now you just preach the gospel.

That is a very, very weak understanding of what's going on in Acts 5, and even what the threshold of persecution is.

It's not merely preaching the gospel. We are called to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow

Christ. And in the process of doing that, if we come up against opposition from the world, the governing authorities, that is the definition of persecution.

And if they're trying to prevent us from taking up our cross and following Christ daily, then the trigger has been met.

They're standing in the way of us obeying Christ. And in those cases, we have to obey God, not men.

So this whole idea that as long as we can preach the gospel, we're not really being persecuted is incredibly weak, ahistorical, unbiblical.

And so I think those two features definitely need to be pressed on the Romans 13 side of it, aside from the fact that we just need to understand

Romans 13 better. You know, the governing authorities don't get to define what good and evil are.

You know, it's God that does, that government's a servant of God, that they're accountable to God, that there are spheres of authority, that governments don't have total authority over every other sphere, that each sphere needs to respect the other sphere's sphere of authority.

So I think Romans 13 and the book gets into that understanding how we are to think about the government, especially in a time when we're being conditioned to just see the government is kind of regulating everything, controlling everything, and then to think that they have total authority.

We're being conditioned to think that way. We need to think more clearly and more biblically on that issue.

Yeah, I mean, Daniel wasn't even persecuted for necessarily even praying. It was praying with his windows open and so people could see what he was doing.

He could have gone in his closet and avoided it. And so I could see what you're saying where, you know, if that happened today, the same scenario, you could have had some of the same people saying, well, you know, he wasn't really persecuted because it wasn't for sharing the gospel and he could have avoided it or something.

And so, yeah, I mean, I totally agree with you. And that's a very, very good point that you're making about broadening our definition there of what persecution is.

Following Jesus is going to meet the ire of the world. And there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

So I think, and a good job, I think, summarizing Romans 13, spheres of authority. You talk about this in the book.

What about if another situation comes down the pike, another, let's say, global pandemic situation?

And this time it's the government's telling us that it's even deadlier.

We don't have the information yet to verify. Would you handle things any different than you did before?

Or how would you approach it? I think that's a good question. It's difficult to determine that ahead of time because there's information's important as far as trying to understand that.

But I think our, you know, we gave the government the benefit of the doubt the first time around.

And that was foolish of us in hindsight. I think we did the right thing by giving them that benefit.

But obviously, in hindsight, they were not good stewards of our graciousness and charity on that front.

So I don't think we would be as quick to comply.

And, you know, here's the whole thing. Even if the virus is more deadly. Well, look, I mean, basically, everybody got

COVID -19. I mean, everyone got it. So if it's more deadly, then you're going to get it anyway.

And if that's the case, then you need the gospel and people need to die in the body of Christ, you know, with the body of Christ.

And so even if it were more serious, it actually ends up providing an even greater justification for us continuing to meet, because we need the hope of the gospel and the ministry of the word and the fellowship of the saints to go through that.

For example, we lost a life during COVID -19. And it wasn't due to COVID.

It was due to cancer. And he didn't get treatment that he would have gotten otherwise because of the restrictions that were in place. Now, it's possible and even likely he would have died anyway.

But his time on earth could have been extended, though we understand God had numbered his days. But for the time leading up to that, because he was trying to keep himself healthy enough to go in and get that surgery, he wasn't with the body.

And this was a man that loves the body of Christ. And it was being held back from him.

And so he would have been far better off to have been with the body and even died sooner.

Right? Been with the body, got COVID even, and died than to have been removed from the body, waiting for that surgery.

It keeps getting delayed. And then he dies as a result of that without the body of Christ around him. And so, you know, he's with the

Lord and he's not regretting anything right now. That's for sure. But yeah,

I mean, a more serious virus just gives you more impetus to meet. Yeah, no, I love that answer because I have a number.

I'm sure you have a number of other examples coming to my head of people who died alone without their families, you know, looking at a

Zoom screen or something. And they're leaving this life to go to the next. And you have such an eternal perspective on this, which

I think is so key in this whole thing, because the government and the secular religion really that they're operating under, it doesn't take into account eternity.

It is just for the here and now, the worst thing that could possibly happen is your life is cut short. And so, you know, that you don't live long enough to experience all the pleasures you might have wanted to.

And yet as Christians, that's not at all what should motivate us to live. We're going to all die at some point.

Then comes judgment. And I think of Martin Luther as he was housing people who had bubonic plague to take care of them.

I mean, this is the example that Christians have shown throughout the centuries. And all of a sudden, it's changed to know the loving thing to do is to not run into the fire, but to keep yourself safe and let the government handle it.

And so, you know, what you're saying is excellent. That's the time people need the church more, not less.

Well, I can't recommend it enough for people to go check this out. And I know that there's a few people trying to publish books on this particular topic, but you and Nathan Busenitz, you guys are some of the first to publish something.

And it's pretty short. It's accessible. And where can people go? I mean, I know they can go to Amazon, but where would you want them to go to get this book?

Any place in particular? You know what? There's a place on the Canadian side of it in Ontario called

Reformation Book Services. I think that would be a great place to order it on the

Canadian side of it. Last time I checked on the US side of it, Christian Books has it on sale for the best price.

I think the last time I saw it, I think it was like 10 bucks American. And so I don't know how the shipping works with Christian Books and whether you got to pay shipping on that or what.

But ChristianBooks .com would be a good one to take a look at if you're on the southern side of the border for sure.

Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Well, so if people want a copy, go there. Check it out. I know it's on also on Audible, you know, and I hope at some point,

I know we were chatting before I pushed the record button. You can't really leave the country right now, but I hope at some point soon you can.

And that maybe some people in the United States can get to meet you at a conference or something. And I've actually been hoping to go to Canada for now the last two years.

And on more of the west side of the country, I have an invitation there.

And then this whole thing happened and I'm like, oh, man. So I'm hoping it ends real soon.

And you know, I won't. I won't. You asked this question earlier and it occurred to me. I mean, obviously, Erin was on Tucker Carlson's.

There was a secular opportunity for her. And I won't name it, but I was

I was invited to go to the U .S. just recently and be on a really visible, popular show and do a long extended interview and couldn't get into the

U .S., obviously, to do that. So so there are secular opportunities that have come that would allow for for a much broader audience.

And if that border opens, Lord willing, I'll get there and do that. And I'd love to. Yeah. Is it do you have to have the the the shot since we're on YouTube?

I can't say the other word, but to go into the U .S. or is it just no one can go? No, it's yeah.

So right now, Biden has a mandate in place that internationals have to be vaxxed.

Gotcha. Or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, yeah, I figured that's what it was.

And you can now fly in Canada. So that's a new development about a week old where we are allowed to fly.

I could fly to Toronto, Vancouver. I can fly now in Canada. I couldn't until a week ago.

But the the U .S. border mandate is still in place. And I've been stopped at the border twice, once to get to a conference in Florida with founders and then once to get to the

Shepherds Conference in March. Oh, wow. OK. And you were obviously able to make it through at that point.

No, couldn't go. Oh, you couldn't go. Oh, they denied me at the border. Yeah. OK, so I thought you.

So did you do your your speeches on via Zoom or something like that, or? I did speak at the

Shepherds Conference through through Zoom, just like this for a breakout session.

But yeah, I was not there. So I was going to preach a general session, couldn't get into the country. And and then even for founders,

I was going to preach two main sessions, couldn't get into the country. And so so it's had an impact for sure.

Well, how can people be praying for you and your church is it sounds like things have calmed down quite a bit, but I'm sure

I'm sure there's other things coming down the pike. And there's also the constant pressures of ministry.

Yeah, you know what? I'm not sure exactly how to pray for our church. We're doing well. We're now running two services to accommodate the growth in our in our church.

And I would love to I'd love to be able to bring those two services together as one.

And so that means we need a bigger building. And and so I guess that that could be a way to pray is to be praying for the acquisition of land and bigger building.

And and so, yeah, that that would be a wonderful thing to do. A lot of folks say, well, why don't you plan a church?

Well, here's the thing, like the plan of church means giving up a portion of your leadership and we're six elders deep and you need typically three to plant.

So now we're down to three. And if only one hundred or two hundred go in that church plant, we still have five or six hundred people left with three hundred with three elders and elders don't grow on trees.

You know, they've got to be called. They've got to be apt to teach character qualified. And so, you know, we're working toward developing more elders.

But planting a church is just it's impractical at this point in time. Praise God that you're growing after this.

I mean, that is that's a testimony in my mind. And so, well, go get the book,

God versus government. You can go to Christian books if you're in the United States and it's on.

It's it's all over the place. But Dr. Dr. Pastor Coates, are you a doctor? Yes, sir.

I can call you Dr. Coates. All right. Dr. Dr. Pastor Coates, thank you for joining us and for talking about this.

And is there anywhere else you want to send people website or blog or anything like that?

You know what? You can follow my wife on Instagram and and she's always posting good content.

We've got a YouTube page. Our sermons are available. Their website audio is available there as well.

Yeah. Awesome. All right. I'll put the links in the info section. I'll find all that. God bless you. And thank you once again.