Cross Examination in Debate on Inclusivism

Mr. Rutland, the noble Muslim who worships

Allah and will go to heaven, does God leave him unregenerate and spiritually dead in this life?

Could you repeat the question, please? I don't understand. The noble Muslim, the Muslim who has the possibility of going to heaven, is he left unregenerate in this life?

First off, we have to ask what you mean by noble.

If by noble you mean innocent, there is no man that is innocent in the eyes of God.

We all obtain heaven through the grace of God by the sacrifice of his son.

Is he regenerated in this life? I will have to say that I don't know the mind of God and how

God works in that fashion. So, is it possible that spiritually dead people will only be made alive after this life?

Is that what you're saying? I don't think that the Bible sheds any indication on that.

Personally, I do not believe that a spiritually dead person will have some kind of after -world conversion experience.

So if you don't know if the man is spiritually alive, that means that all the descriptions we have in 841, 1260, about seeking truth, doing the will of God, this is done by men who are spiritually dead, right?

Well, Dr. Watt, I'm sure you know that in Catholic theology it teaches that we can only know

God through a divine act of God revealing himself. It's called actual grace.

I believe our Wesleyan brothers call it pervenient grace. God is the one that does the first calling.

He leaves it to man because he will not violate man's free will. He leaves it to man to accept that calling or to reject that calling.

But as to your question, again, we're back to how does God work? And we do not simply know the mind of God.

So you do believe, in light of this, that spiritually dead men can seek the truth, do the will of God?

I believe that men who are spiritually dead, as you put it, and I would not accept your definition of that, that those men still have a certain inborn, inane knowledge of God, and that God calls to those men, and he calls them to him by his grace.

It is not that man, left to his own natural desires, will find

God. God calls to every single man because every single man is included in the plan of salvation.

So God calls by grace the Muslim who continues his entire life embracing the worship of a false god, a different Jesus, and believing that to worship the

Trinity is to commit the impartable sin. Is that the call of God's grace to them? Well, you're assuming in your question that I know the heart of every single

Muslim, which I don't. You're also assuming in your question that I know the mind of God, which

I do not. The catechism doesn't answer the question? The catechism, sir, says that it is possible.

It doesn't say it will happen, but it holds out the possibility. And that's exactly what we're debating here tonight, sir, and that's exactly the question that you've been debating all night long.

Is idolatry a mortal sin? Idolatry? Mm -hmm. Could you define mortal—I'm not supposed to ask questions,

I'm sorry. Is idolatry a mortal sin? I'm using the term mortal sin as you would define it.

I'm asking you to define it. Is idolatry a mortal sin? If I know that God is the true God of the universe, if I know that God calls me to a relationship with him and I reject that and I say, oh holy highlighter,

I worship you as my God, that, sir, is a mortal sin. So if you claim—do you claim that there are men who do not know that there is one true

God who exists in heaven? Yes. So how do you explain

Paul's words when he says, for what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world and the things that have been made.

So they are unapologia, without a defense or an excuse. Is this not about everyone?

Is this only about a certain people, Romans 1? It is only about a certain people because a baby that dies in infancy does not know that there is a

God in heaven. A man who is in a coma all of his life or is severely mentally disabled does not know there is a

God in heaven. So obviously Paul is speaking of people that have a functioning awareness of the world about them, but that wasn't the question that you asked me,

Dr. Washington. Okay. Well, section 841 and 1260 makes the exact same assumption that you just did.

That is, it's not talking about infants and it's not talking about those without the mental capacity. Then I bring you back to the same question.

In the context of sections 841 and 1260, is there any of those individuals that do not know that the true

God exists? In a rudimentary form, I would say no.

Okay. So, then you would agree that this is descriptive of the same people we see in 841 and 1260 when it says they are suppressing, verse 18 says they are suppressing the truth.

Is that not descriptive of everyone who is under discussion in 841 and 1260? No, it's not of everyone because we don't have knowledge that everyone is suppressing the truth.

So, Romans 1, 18 through 20 is not about all people other than infants and those lacking mental capacity.

It's only about a specific group. I would say that mankind who has an awareness of God knows the rudimentary things of God because when we see the things in nature, we realize that there is a creator.

Now, that is a very basic and rudimentary thing, but that's what St. Paul is speaking of and it's that very spark which

God uses then to call that man to him in an act of grace. Actually, does it not say that they are without an excuse?

Where is the word grace in Romans 1 anywhere in Romans 1, a spark of grace?

Could you show me where you just got your statement that this is the spark that God uses to call them in grace?

Where do you get that from the text? Well, what Paul is pointing out there, sir, is he's objecting to the person that says, well,

I never knew there was a God, so therefore God can't judge me. That's the context that Paul is using there.

And so, in that context, all men know there is a God. When we stand before God, we will not have the opportunity to say,

God, I didn't know that you existed, therefore I stand redeemed in front of you.

That's what Paul is talking about there. Where? Could you show me the verse where you have this person saying that? Well, obviously, that's my commentary on the scripture and not the words of scripture itself.

But commentaries can normally tell you where in the passage they're commenting on. So where in verse 18, for example, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and righteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Who doesn't that include? Who is not, by their unrighteousness, suppressing the truth of God? Okay, the normal, normative state of man is exactly as you just described there.

I would agree. So, the Muslim, described in section 841, who together with us adores

God. Do you believe that Muslims adore God? Their understanding of God, yes. Is that what section 841 says?

When it says, and together with us they adore the one merciful

God, mankind's judge on the last day. Is it your understanding that the catechism is saying it's their understanding or are the words fairly clear here?

Well, the Muslims do believe that there is one God that will judge all on the last day.

That's what the catechism is pointing out. And it's also pointing out that there are certain things that the Muslims believe about God that we also believe about God.

And it's also pointing out that they go back to the faith of Abraham. It is not saying, as you are trying to suggest, that everything they believe about God is correct, nor is it saying, as you are trying to suggest, that there's anything within their religion that can save.

Mr. Rutland, I haven't suggested either one. It simply says, and together with us they adore the one merciful

God. Are you saying that that means together with us they adore a different merciful God than we adore?

No, they acknowledge the same God that we acknowledge. Sir, can

I finish your question, please? They acknowledge the same

God that we do. They understand him in a different way. There's a very big difference between acknowledging something and worshiping in the same way.

What does the word adore mean? The word adore means to hold in high respect, but we're not trying to parallel Muslim worship with Christian worship.

That is not what the catechism is trying to say. Then why does it say together with us? Because we both have a one true

God that we worship. We are all monotheists. That's all the catechism is trying to point out.