Boldness in the Christian Music Industry with John Cooper!

Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it! Are you going to bark all day, little doggy?

Or are you going to bite? Delusional. Delusional is okay in your worldview.

I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me! Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

That's a joke, Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

Take an easy journey, so you will never be the same.

1 Corinthians 16, 13. Be watchful. Stand firm in the faith.

Act like men. Be strong. And then verse 14. Let all you do be done in love.

What is up, everyone? I'm very excited for the show today. This is

Luke the Bear sitting in the captain's chair today. Pastor Jeff is on his mandatory sabbatical.

So it's just Joy and I today running this thing. His mandatory sabbatical from last year.

Yeah, exactly. If you want to know how busy pastors are. Yeah, that's true. He had to keep postponing it. Well, it was kind of a weird year, too.

Yeah, that's an understatement. So I'm very excited about today. To my left is my favorite,

Joy the Girl. Hello. I'm very excited about the show. Me too.

What's this rock and roll music? It seems like people are going to start us. Like if it's just ever the two of us on the show.

Wasn't the last show we did together. It was a music one. Two of them. Yeah. Yeah. I think every time.

And we're having Darren on again next week. Right. So every time Jeff's out here, we talk about music, which is fun.

And I think it's good. It's therapeutic. Right. It's not always so dead serious about everything.

It's like, oh, let's have some fun today. So, yeah. So if you don't know what's going on today, we have

John Cooper on. The lead singer from Skillet. And I'm going to bring him on here in a second.

I'm playing the first track from their first release. And I'm very excited about this.

My wife actually really wanted to be on today. But she never wants to be on. Sorry. Why didn't she?

No, she's doing something today with her sister. Oh, gotcha. Okay. Anyways.

I just looked up John. Yes. Because we were going to have him on.

And I was like, all right, let's just see what there is to know. And he's not the only

John Cooper out there. Because I clicked on something and it was like, John Cooper is 75 years old and still in prison.

And I was like, I think that's probably the wrong one. Unless he's making music from prison. So I'm going to go.

John, I'll have you. I'm glad to have him. The one we want. Yeah. Not the actual, just the one we want.

Yeah. Well, I will say that this John probably has the best beard that's ever been on this. I know.

One of the first YouTube comments was, are we getting any beard grooming tips? Possibly.

John actually has his own line of beard oil and stuff.

Oh, very nice. Which Pastor James gave us all for Christmas. Oh, okay. Which smells quite well.

So that's why your beard is looking lustrous today. That's right. So, John, what's up, brother? How's it going, man?

Good, man. I hear you playing that old loud skillet rock music. I feel like that could take down the walls of Jericho.

Yes. Seriously, that guitar. Take it down. Yeah. I love it, man. I have some stories

I want to tell you about this album, but it's funny because when I told my wife we were going to have you on,

I played this album. It's been a while since I listened to it, and I was like, man, this is still like a solid album.

What year did you release it? Was it 90s? 96, man. That's what I was going to say. I know, which is crazy because I'm only 29.

Yeah, I know, right? So if you think about it, I made that like at nine years old, or maybe that'd be five.

I can't do the math that fast. You're a prodigy. I was young. Prodigy. No, man, this is still a really solid album.

So I'll just get right into it. I want to hear how you got into music and in the industry and all that stuff.

I'd love to hear that story, but I grew up in a pretty conservative Christian home, and it was like to listen to Michael W.

Smith and Twilight Paris was like a big deal, right? And Jars of Clay.

Actually, that's the first thing my wife said to me when we met. She said, nice Jars of Clay shirt. Oh, yes. That's how it started.

We were 16. Man, this is good. Sorry, I just love this song.

I'm going to go ahead and stop that. So it's like about that time you guys dropped this.

Do you remember? You guys remember like the joy. You might be too young for this, but you remember how they had those like CD clubs where you could get like 10

CDs for buying one or whatever. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So that's where I was getting all my

Michael W. Smith and stuff like that. And then I think that's where I got that album.

And I was like, oh, what is this? It's in rock and roll. And at that time, I'm listening to Stone Temple Pilots and Bush and stuff like that.

And I can remember because I wasn't really allowed to listen to that stuff. I can remember literally my mom and dad had this big stereo with a record player and tape decks and all that.

And I would record my friend's CDs onto tape, but turn the volume all the way down. And my parents would be sitting right next to it.

And they didn't know I was recording it. Anyway, so I heard this album. And I was like, what? I remember literally it changed my life in some ways because I love

Christian metal. I'm rocking August Burns' Red Today. But this album was like my gateway into good

Christian music. You were allowed to listen to it and you wanted to listen to it. Yeah. So it opened my mind.

Oh, my goodness. There's actually good music. And so then I started getting into MXPX and Supertones and Tooth &

Nail. And then it was all downhill from there into hardcore and metal and all that stuff.

So thank you. Thank you, John, for this album. We were the gateway drug for where you went.

But the truth is there was a lot of great Christian underground music, alternative, metal, hardcore,

Six Feet Deep and Mortal and all those great bands. And even when

I was growing up, it was more in the metal era. Sure. Before, a lot of the hardcore, like Tooth &

Nail, was more like hardcore and punk. But there was a bunch of amazing Christian metal bands.

They just didn't really have the outlets. Petra. Yeah. I always want to tell people, you got to remember where you came from.

And I know Skilla wouldn't be here had it not been for White Cross and, of course, Striper and Resurrection Band.

But a whole ton of amazing Christian metal. And I was – similar story to you in terms of I wasn't allowed to listen to rock music.

But that's a very long story. But I ended up getting into Christian music. And God really used

Christian music to change my life in a lot of ways, to teach me a lot about the Bible. And so it was always a part of my vision was to –

I want to share Christ through music because music changes people. People are identified by the music they listen to very much in the world.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So you go into a lunchroom cafeteria and you kind of know there's the people that listen to rock, there's the people that listen to R &B, hip -hop.

And it so identifies people that I thought I could share

Christ through that music in the way that other bands have done for me. And it'd be a great way to share the gospel.

That's what it was all about for me. Man, I appreciate that so much. And that brings up – well, two questions

I want to ask. I don't know if you've ever listened to the Labeled podcast. I always tell people that like music to listen to that podcast.

It's like the history of Tooth & Nail Records and stuff. It's amazing. I love it because there's just so many things that I – people that I know and bands

I used to listen to and all that. But one question – they always ask certain questions and stuff.

I would love to hear – I don't know. That was a self -titled album, right?

Correct. Yeah. So was that your guys' first release or did you have some self -releases you did before that?

What was it like? You just all at once, you were in the midst of it, huh? Yeah. We had been playing in different bands for a long time at that point.

I began playing – singing in my first band when I was 15 and didn't –

I mean I loved music. I didn't know how serious I would take it. I mean I took it very seriously but I didn't know if it would ever be a job.

It was just like I'm going to do it while I can and I was in college and not doing very well at all in college.

But the truth is I didn't do very many things very well besides music and it was a dream of mine. But when

Skillet got together, it was just all very quick. Skillet was a side project of several different bands in my church.

My pastor was very influential in my life. He said, hey John, I think you would be good with this other guitar player from this other band in church.

Why don't you guys start a side project? Write a couple songs, see how it goes. He said it would be like cooking, taking all these ingredients out of different bands and throwing it in a big skillet.

That would be fun. I was like, yeah, sure. So it wasn't that serious but very, very quickly, I mean like three months, we were recording that first album.

It was very fast. So we just had that sense. It was a sense of, all right,

God, this is something God is doing. It was put together so quickly and so crazily.

We had a sense that this is what the Lord is doing and we're going to go down the path. I dropped out of school. I was failing out anyway.

But I was like, we'll do this for a couple of years and then I'll do whatever is next.

And I never dreamt it would last for 20 years. It's kind of an amazing ride. Yeah, that's amazing.

20 years, wow. I just turned 40 on Saturday, so I'm feeling old already.

That really made me feel old. So here's the other question.

And I think this is a great, I love this discussion. We've had this before on this show.

And Joy, if you want to chime in on this. So I can remember going to, I mean, my wife and I used to go to shows like every week.

And I can remember going to see bands like Zayo and stuff like that. And I'd be indignant if these were

Christian bands and they weren't up there talking about Jesus and taking the opportunity to preach the gospel.

And I'd be so mad. And then I'd see them drinking a beer after the show. And I'd be like, oh man, what's with those guys? And I've changed my perspective now in some ways.

I think what's important is that if you're a

Christian in a band or however you want to word it, you're glorifying God. And if you have an opportunity to represent

Christ and share the gospel, I think you should. But that's what I appreciate about you, though, because you said it earlier.

You were like, hey, this is a good opportunity for me to share Jesus. And so I love that.

So I'd love to hear your take on that conversation. Yeah, I think there's a few things. And before I jump in, just as an

FYI, I cannot hear Joy. I don't know if I'm supposed to, but I can't. So you don't have to tell me anything that she wants to know.

But in terms of the conversation, I think that I know exactly what you mean. I would like to share my own opinion about it.

I'm going to nuance it out a lot. I ran a Christian club, if you want to call it that, in my church.

I was in college. My pastor had started this Christian club, all the Christian bands, all the tooth and nail bands would come in.

And we were passionate about discipleship and sharing the gospel, giving people a chance to come to Christ and all this.

One of the things that was very difficult for me that I noticed very quickly was that most of the

Christian bands that came through, I became less and less convinced they were saved.

They were even a little bit saved. I'm saying that as a joke.

That's bad theology. You're not a little bit saved. My point is, are you even pretending to be saved? Most of them weren't even pretending to be saved.

They just were on Christian labels. And I got very down about that.

It started from a place of, when I was like, guys, are you ever going to talk about Jesus on the stage? Why are you in a band if you never talk about Jesus?

And then I started realizing, oh, they have nothing to share because they're not recreated by the

Spirit. That's very clear to me. And so their lives didn't look like it. And they would be drinking and smoking and hanging out with girls.

All of your discernment meters were pinging out. I'm like, this doesn't smell right at all.

That was really difficult for me. Throughout the years, I think that there's a lot of room to move here.

But I think that you nailed it when you said something to the effect of. I don't remember how you said it. But if you belong to Christ, then all of you belongs to Christ.

It's not like just when I pray, just when I go to church, just with my family.

It's all encompassing. Like all the great Puritans taught us, the goal is to make all of life holy.

Everything in your life submitted to the Lord Jesus. So I found in my life that there were times when

I felt that I should not preach from the stage. But it was never from a position of I'm going to leave

Jesus out of this. And even in those moments, in those,

I would say, I assume they're moments, tours. I went on some tours when I just knew I'm the opening act. It's not my place to do so.

That would get me either kicked off a tour or just not what people came for. But I still know that my –

I'm going to get a little bit mystical here, but I think we have a lot of Scripture to back it up. I'm going to believe that my presence as a follower of Jesus, that my life is so different than my surroundings.

That just by being on this tour, that we are being sought and liked. Whether I talk about Jesus on stage or not, the purity of the band, namely the sexual purity of the band, because obviously sex, drugs, rock and roll, you go on secular tours, it's sex everywhere.

It's party everywhere. The fact alone that we are on stage, not cussing to the crowd, not asking people to take their clothes off from the crowd, which is what you typically see at these metal shows.

It was the fact that we were there alone. I felt like we didn't need to say anything. The gospel, in a certain way, was going forth from the fact that we were living pure lives.

I've got a bunch of really crazy, to me, miraculous stories that we got messages from people, and I thought, whoa, that was crazy.

I can't believe that God used this thing to bring someone to Christ. So that's kind of my feeling.

I don't like the idea that you can be saved and be ashamed of the gospel. That doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah, absolutely. Hey, by the way, is that new ink on your hand? No, it's not.

Oh, it looks fresh. Oh, no. Was that a rose? It looks fresh. It is a rose. I have a rose here, if you can see it.

Under the rose it says, Fear God. Oh, nice. Then on this side, I've got a lion.

It's hard to see. Under it, it says, Love God, right there. And so the idea was that, obviously, we are holding these.

My rose says, Fear God, because he is gentle, but he is the warrior king, right?

He will have his way. He will have everything under his feet.

But the other side is that, yes, he is the warrior king, but his love is so infinite. So those are the two things on my thing.

And then on my fingers here, it says, Fire and Fury. And this is not about fighting. Some people thought this maybe because I was a fighter.

I'm not a fighter. But this is the fire of the Holy Spirit that gives you a fury against the flesh.

Nice. Come on, baby. Love it. It's from the Bible, basically. I love it.

I love it. Yeah. So it's interesting. I'm so glad you brought some of that stuff up, because even where I'm at now in my life and listen to that label podcast and listen to About Tooth and Nail, coming up when that stuff was breaking, everyone just assumed it was like a

Christian label and all those bands were Christians, which now I realize it really wasn't supposed to be a

Christian band. But he had bands out there that just had good messages, and a lot of them were Christians. So we would see those bands, and we just assumed they were

Christians. And we were way off. You've been to Cornerstone, I'm assuming, right?

I have. Yep. Yeah. I did that twice. And we've even gone up to some of our favorite bands, like, hey, bro, you want to have a

Bible study? And they're like, no. And we're like, what's with that guy? What's with that guy?

He's born of the flesh. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So a lot of those bands, guys were never even really

Christians. They just hung out maybe with guys that were Christians or went to a youth group for a while, got into this band, and then people assumed they were

Christians. So there's that type. So when they don't act like a Christian, or they apparently fall away and stuff, you're like, oh, that's a bummer.

But then that brings me to the next conversation I want to have. And there's been, even just the last five years, there's been so many guys and big bands, major bands that claim to be

Christians. So these aren't guys that never really wanted to be Christians. These are guys that claim to be Christians and have apostatized and denied

Christ. And it's like, man, that's a gut punch when you see that. I remember that happened with Under Oath. Under Oath was one of my favorite bands.

That happened with a Hawk Nelson, bands like that. And you're like, man, what is happening?

I know you've, I believe you've actually done some interviews maybe and spoken out against some of that.

So I'd love to hear just your take on that and your thoughts on that. Sure. Sure. Yeah, I think that that had always been hard for me ever since, again, 1995 when

I was running that club, having those bands come through. And I was just like,

I don't understand why we would act like, why we're doing Christian music if we are not actually given to lordship.

It just didn't make sense to me. And I do think that throughout the years, I found that more and more disheartening.

And I never really became cynical about the church, but I certainly became cynical about Christian music because I'm just like, this is just kind of so depressing.

I mean, I just think it's the only way to say it. So we don't agree on what we have to agree on.

You know what I mean? And so that kind of became a downer for me. And just noticing on the road,

I was so naive. I thought we'd go on the road, we'd meet all these other Christian bands, and we'd talk about Christ and discipleship and purity.

And the next thing I know, I find out that the people I'm touring with don't want any of that. And in fact, what they actually want is sexual impurity.

And so I would talk to them. I'd be like, hey, what's going on with this so -and -so? I'd bring something up in their life that was clearly obvious.

And they would just be like, dude, it's not your place to judge me, and this, that, and the other. And I just got very, very cynical about the

Christian market in general. And I think that, yes, the last five years,

I think we have just become the pinnacle of reaping what has been happening really in Christendom in general.

The fact that we're not really teaching Orthodox theology. We're not teaching sanctification as we ought, holiness.

And we're not really holding people account a lot of the times because we want to be nice. And obviously, being nice is really good and stuff.

But when people are in positions of leadership, there's qualifications that should go with that. And so I think a lot of it is just a lack of theology.

So I'm very passionate about holding up a standard for Christian leaders.

And I view Christian music sort of like that. I don't think Christian musicians have to have a theology degree.

And I think it's okay if they—I say okay. I don't hold them—I know I've written songs that if I could go back and say,

I wish I could change that lyric because it's not theologically all that great. Yeah. Yeah, I would do that, sure.

But I don't think I would hold Christian musicians up to the way that when I read a

Timothy Keller thing and I go, well, that doesn't sound right at all. I don't think I should hold a Christian musician up to the same standard.

Because they're different jobs. But I still think that we should be in it for the same thing, which is to make

Christ king of the whole world—well, Christ is king of the whole world—but to make him more famous in the world.

Yeah. And a part of that fame is the lordship that he calls us to and sanctification.

So I'm quite passionate about that. Amen. Right, yeah. So— Can you hear Joy, by the way?

Yeah, I think— I can hear Joy now. Okay. I think Joy sounds familiar from— Hey, hey, you know, that's me.

Yeah, that's Luke. That's your metal coming out. I went to—someone else had done an intro for them, and I was like,

I can do better than that. So I went in my garage one day and did like four takes, and I was like, here, pick one of these. That's what they picked.

Well, I think you did a good job. Thank you. And it's even—well, it's even got more theologically accurate lyrics, even though it says nothing, than most of those tooth and nail bands you like.

That's right. Oh, dang. Hey, I know it. I know it. I'm not there for the theology,

I'll say that. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's unfortunate because some—well, I know Luke's not the biggest fan of Me Without You, but I love and have loved

Me Without You. And yeah, I know I've seen that decline that we're all talking about, where like one time after a concert,

I had the opportunity to see and chat with the lead singer a little bit, and he said very good theological things that were all solid.

Yeah. And now, like you said, you see that decline, and it's not so much—I mean, when you're in like a,

I guess, a position where people are looking up to you, you are more responsible in a way.

It's not like you're a pastor or anything like you were saying. Sure. But the musician is responsible for his discipleship, fellowship, making sure that he's doing the things that he's commanded to do.

And I wonder if just like how, like with the lifestyle of traveling, and like you said, even maybe for a lot of these guys, there was just a lot of temptation, like so much temptation that it exposed that they weren't really saved.

But it's got to be, it's got to have its challenges.

So, I guess, what are some of the challenges, and what would you say maybe one of the greatest illusions of musical fame would be?

Like something that people think they really want, but maybe they don't want that much when they have it.

Sin. Yeah, all sin. You know, I would probably say a few things. You know, one of the things that I really love about James White, I've heard him say a couple of times on his podcast, is he's made, you know, people always ask him, if I want to get into apologetics, you know, what advice can you give me?

And I've heard him say several times that you should be a part of a local church. In other words, you're not just an itinerant guy that goes around without being surrounded by church leaders.

And within the context of the ministry of the church, I've always viewed that same thing with being in a

Christian band. And I think that, honestly, I think that's our biggest, if I could tell anybody, do what

I did, it would be, you know, there's lots of things you shouldn't do, but one of the things you should do is do what we did, be a part of a church.

And that's not just the fact that we go to church when we're home, we have relationship with my church leaders.

And within relationship comes church authority, comes accountability.

In a certain way, my church views skillet as a ministry of the church, that you're sending us out.

And so I think a lot of bands didn't have that. And I think that combined with, you know, yes, there are a lot of temptations, but some of it is also,

I mean, I hate to keep going back to this, but I kind of know who listens to your program, so I probably can keep saying this over and over and they won't mind.

Teaching about like worldview and, you know, in other words, you could look at it like this.

You have like your pietism, right? Which would be, you know, let's just, let's don't get involved in what the world and culture and what they're doing.

We have our own culture, so we're outside of that, right? That is more like what

I grew up in. My parents were not into like, you know, Christians making art into the world kind of thing.

But, you know, I very much believe in that and I know not everybody does, but I like the idea because I see it in scripture that all of the earth belongs to God.

And we are taking, in my view, kingdom culture to the world. So it is the kingdom of God that is overtaking the darkness.

So I'm like, yeah, we should be doing that. But I don't think that a lot of the musicians, they don't have any vision for any of that stuff.

They just want to make cool music, you know, they want to make cool art and they don't understand how different the world's, how do you want to say it?

They don't understand how different the world's agenda is from the Christian, from the

Christian's agenda. I know that sounds really silly, but I don't think that they understand that. I think they think it's almost like neutral ground.

That's kind of like neutral out there, and I'll just make cool Christian music into the neutral world of musicianship where we all want the same stuff.

And they haven't understood because they don't have a good theology. Now, that's not saying the person that you're talking about,

Joy, I have no idea. But some of the people don't really understand, no, no, if you are not a friend of Christ, you are an enemy of Christ and your flesh is in rebellion towards all the things of the kingdom.

That includes art. You know what I mean? That includes the music you make. That includes the way you think that justice and law should be fill in the blank.

So I do think a lot of that goes into it too. And so these people got into the world and they don't have a foundation, not only in truth, but in relationship with the church.

And so they don't know that they are being influenced. They think they're on neutral ground, but they're not. Because they're constantly hearing the lies of the devil, the flesh, and enemies of God showing them all the things they are missing.

And what they are missing out on is just sin. But they don't know it. And so one tiny, you give an inch, and before you know it, you can't even see your parents on the beach because you've drifted in the ocean.

That's how I see it. That's good, man. I love that. And yeah, just along this line of thought here, that's one thing we've been big on at Apologia, is just making art to the glory of God.

And you don't have to have the name Jesus in every song. There doesn't have to be a full gospel presentation in every song.

And that's what I love about you guys. You just make good music that glorifies God, but it's not force -fed.

Because then it just gets cheesy. And it's just good music that glorifies God, and we should be making the best art.

Period. Because we have Jesus, and we want to honor him. Go ahead. I was just going to say, I think sometimes artists, they are

Christian, or they become a Christian somewhere along in their artistic journey.

And they almost find it hard to keep creating art without it.

Like, they didn't write worship songs before. They weren't writing hymns before. So they're like, how do

I keep... And I wasn't painting pictures of Jesus before.

So what does that look like for me? And yeah, I guess it's hard for people to...

And I don't consider myself a huge artist, but it's a struggle that I feel like I've experienced to some extent.

Just feeling like, you're like, well, how does the sort of unique style that God gives each of us to incorporate that into art?

And it can be hard, but it's a discipline. It's something that you'd have to work at and try.

But I think some people just give up, maybe. Or they do what's contrary to the word.

Or they just stop making art, maybe. I don't know. Right.

Yeah. Well, if I could probably break off of theology and just say something from a...

This is very subjective. This is just my own analysis. There was a joke. It sounds like you guys might be old enough to remember

Sarah McLachlan. Oh, yeah. Yeah. All right. Sarah McLachlan. Another example would be Stained, the metal band

Stained. Those are two examples of artists who made incredible art.

And as they got older and probably wealthier and happier, their art didn't stay as good.

Right. And that's what it is. There's this association with good art and depravity and suffering.

There's this connection there. And so people are like, oh, well, now I'm joy -filled. So how do

I keep creating? That's kind of the line I'm going down. I'm scared to make anybody think

I'm saying something crazy, wrong theology. But just stay with me because it's kind of what you said. Great art, subjectively, okay?

I'm not talking about art that glorifies God. I'm talking about from a world's perspective, great art is something that shocks you, that gets you thinking, that mortifies you maybe.

In other words, it may be actually disturbing to an incredible satanic degree.

But it could be, quote, unquote, good art from a subjective point of view because it's provocative.

And so what happens with art sometimes is that that's what makes it so good. When Sarah McLachlan came out, it was such pretty music, but the lyrics were so deep and so dark.

And she's singing with the piano. It sounds like it could be something somebody sings in church, but then she would, like, drop an

F -bomb. And it was so shocking that it made people like, oh, my gosh, did you hear that?

That was so – it's like seeing something unnatural, right? You know what

I mean? It's like Geiger's art if you've ever seen the film Alien. H .R. Geiger is the one that created

Alien. He creates this really disturbing alien imagery that's – it's kind of human -esque, but it's distorted in a really kind of demonic way in my opinion.

But it makes for great artwork, right? Well, all of a sudden you get saved and what you like begins to change.

And what you enjoy – what you think great art is begins to change because for the

Christian, great art should bring glory to the creator. He's the god of my art now.

And so all of a sudden if you make, quote, good art meaning art that glorifies

Christ, well, there's a lot less people that love art that glorifies Christ than there are people that love art that just shocks them.

And so all of a sudden you're holding these things and whatever. So if I could give any advice to those

Christians who do get saved and they want to keep making art, I still believe that through the Holy Spirit because God is creative and he's created us in his image.

And I believe through the power of the spirit and the filling of the spirit that he empowers us to make art that is truly beautiful and truly spreads his fame.

I believe all those things. But I do think there are cases. A friend of mine – I won't say his name because it's not my place to – but who plays in a rock band that is like every other word is the

F word. And he got radically saved but is trying to find a way to make it work.

And if I could give any encouragement to some of those people, sometimes it's an issue of, to me, of like lordship and like maybe your art is something that you just need to give up.

Maybe that's just your old life because to you, great art is tied to the flesh.

And I don't think – so you have people who are recreated but are still trying to make songs that sound like they're not recreated.

It doesn't work. So maybe you just got to give that up. And life is not about your art.

Life is about glorifying God. So maybe you got to give up your art for that. I don't know if that's helpful or not. That's just an opinion.

No, amen. I appreciate that. So I have a reader or a listener's question here.

I'm going to read to you for a second. I thought you would find this funny though. Someone commented and said that they have one of your CDs stuck in their

CD player from the previous owner in their car. Yes.

That's great. I mean you tell me that's not the power of the spirit. I don't know what is. Okay? So that's hilarious.

So here's the question. I'm not sure even if you have a good answer for this or not.

But I can maybe kind of reword it. I guarantee I do. Okay. Perfect. I'm kidding. So I know because I mean

I know you and James are like BFFs now because he's always sending this. Look what

John sent me all the time. And I know you've been on a bit of a spiritual journey yourself the last

I don't know how many years, two or three years or whatever. Or theological I should say not spiritual theological journey.

And so the question was kind of like maybe just give your thoughts on this. The question is basically like why is the reformed community basically like given up on music?

It's you know they've basically given it to Bethel and Hillsong and all this like weak theology stuff. You know and actually

I will say there's been I have I do feel like there's been an uptick in the last couple years from some good solid reformed music.

Especially when it comes to worship and stuff which I've been encouraged to see. So I don't know if you have an answer to that or what your thoughts are on that.

You know why is the reformed community. I promise you I would have an answer but I probably don't. But I would say this that and this is not in any way.

To tell you the truth I don't know that much about the quote reformed community. Even though I am learning a lot more about who what groups of people belong.

So this is not certainly not a slam on the reformed community. And this is also not a slam on the

Bethel community. I have lots of friends who love Bethel's music. Hillsong's music and or certain songs.

Let's say certain ones like I don't know if I love that. But there are some good stuff there. And I think that that's what gets really that's what gets really difficult.

I will say that I do think that reformed people tend to be very let's see what's the word.

They're very nitpicky about theology. That's fair right? That's a good way to put it.

That's fair. And very very like hey wait a minute you do not dishonor God.

I personally think it's one of the best things about reformed theology. But can there be a tendency sometimes when maybe you got

I think I personally think James is quite good at this. I think James is pretty good at going that might not be the best way to say it.

But I think I know what they're saying. And I always find James to be that way with me because I'm a rock star.

I'm not a theologian. And sometimes he's like I think if I remember the way James said it to me about my book.

I have a chapter on the Trinity. And he says I really liked it. I think he said something like some of your language on the

Trinity is a little rough. But so is your singing voice. I love it.

I think that's fair. I think we can be people who love truth. But also be gracious and generous that maybe it's not always being said in the exact right way.

But then when we do need to draw a sword and say we will not sing that song.

I think that's okay too. So I do think that Bethel and Hillsong because of their theology they are given to.

I don't know if I'm getting all my. Obviously they're given to the things of the spirit or whatever you want to call that. The charismatic movement.

And so there is a lot of emotion that goes into that. And I personally think they're quite good at making emotional music.

I think they're very good at that. And some of the songs, especially some of the early Hillsong. Shout to the

Lord. I think it's one of the best worship songs ever written in the last hundred years.

So I don't know if that helps or not. But I personally think it's great to tap into my emotions when

I'm writing music. I mean why not? And I love to get emotional about God too.

I wrote in my book that it's not wrong to get emotional about Jesus. The problem is when your faith in Jesus is based on that emotion.

But I love to get emotional about a God who saved me from sin and death and hell.

And even though I keep continuing to say no to lordship in so many areas of my life and sanctification.

He keeps dumping grace on me day after day. I get very emotional about that God.

So I don't know. Maybe we tie them together. The great theology and the emotion. Maybe we bring it all together and we write amazing hymns.

That'd be good. Right. Well, and it's obviously important to...

You want to be, like you said, you want to be discerning about the kinds of music that you listen to.

But especially songs that are included in your corporate worship service.

Yes. Oh yeah. So that's a big thing. And there's nothing wrong with being nitpicky to an extent.

But if you nitpick Hillsong more than your own sin, maybe you need to change your perspective slightly.

Right. Well, I think it's a great point, what you just said. I do think that there's, for me personally, just my opinion.

I do find it different to me what I listen to at home and what I want to sing in corporate worship to God.

I'm corporate worship. I'm like, hey, let's sing things that are right about his character and let's sing songs about him.

And then I think when we're talking about things we listen to at home and things that are poetic and whatnot,

I personally have a bit more grace when it comes to that stuff, which I think is kind of what Joy just said. Yeah, that's a great point.

I appreciate that. So you have four minutes here. I know you got to go. So quickly, what's it been like for you this last year?

I know I've seen several interviews with you, especially on Christian TV and stuff like that, where you've been very bold and outspoken.

And I've loved the responses from the people interviewing. They're kind of like don't know what to say. So what's it been like for you?

Has it been a struggle in the industry you're in? Have you had a lot of pushback or what's that been like?

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's been an interesting ride. And I don't want to give you too much information.

Oh, man. To tell you the truth, I've always felt on the outskirts of Christian music anyway.

I remember one time getting in a lot of trouble at a Christian music festival because I was on a panel and someone had asked me about something.

I didn't know what I was about to say was going to make people so mad. Wow. But what I said was basically

I was like, hey, they're talking about Jesus coming back and saving us from the world.

And I said, oh, well, I mean I don't actually believe in the rapture. And I had no idea. I had no earthly idea.

I mean I had gone through college. I was reading John Calvin. And I didn't know that –

I mean I knew that a lot of people believed it. But I didn't know it was going to like draw a sword. I had calls from the label.

But the amazing thing was is there were people at the music festival, Christian musicians, who aren't even saved.

And were saying actually crazy stuff from stage that I'm like that's not exactly actually – like there were people that said stuff that gave you the impression that maybe

Jesus doesn't mind a little bit of sexual impurity in your life. Wow.

Think crazy things. And I was like, no, no. No, I believe Jesus is coming. I believe

Jesus is coming back. I just don't believe that we're leaving the earth. I didn't know that it was going to cause a big thing.

Yeah. And so I've always been on the outskirts of that in a certain way. And now the interesting thing is is there is a group in Christian music that is not – there's many groups.

It's just like what's happening in politics. Now there's a group in Christian music that is hyper woke and that is really big time on the – like the critical race theory, multi -ethnic church side, and very kind of progressive politically.

And I would consider to be quite half progressive theologically.

Then you have your other people that are like, oh, let's just be friends. But then there's this other group that is starting that is like, you know what, our – the fact that we haven't drawn a sword over theological issues over the last two decades has led us to a place that is really dire.

And we are actually becoming – we're accountable for what we've done. And I certainly am in that group as well, and maybe

I'm championing that banner of we have a job to do.

And yes, it may cost us sales, and it may cost us streams, and it may get us canceled, and it may make people mad.

But we're actually at a place that if we don't get clear about what the gospel is, then there's going to be no more gospel to preach anyway.

And so I think there's a group of people rising up like that, and I certainly am in that group.

Awesome. Thank you so much, brother. I know you've got to go. Where can people find you and your stuff? Oh, yes.

Okay. Well, first thing, I have a podcast called Cooper Stuff Podcast. Come check it out, everybody, and you can get that on YouTube, wherever you listen to podcasts,

Cooper Stuff. I have a book. You can get the book only at my website, johnlcooper .com.

And then where can they find your music? Pretty much anywhere? Anywhere. Skillet. Go listen to it today on Spotify, iTunes, whatever.

Newest album is called Victorious. Tell me that's not a great name for this time because everybody's scared, and everybody thinks that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, but the gospel is always going to be victorious.

It is impossible to shake the kingdom of God, so that's what the album's about.

That sounds really post -meal, and it sounds like you're getting called for your next interview. I am. I'm sorry, guys.

No, you're good, man. Thanks, brother. I appreciate it. We'd love to have you on again sometime. Thank you. Thank you. Love you guys.

Peace. God bless, man. All right. Well, that was fun.

Yeah. He's a cool guy. Oh, yeah. Man, we didn't even really get into the other stuff.

Oh, well. That's okay. That was fun. You had other stuff? Well, I mean, we were going to possibly talk about Mission of God by Joe Boot, which is my favorite theological book.

Maybe we can have him on again to talk about. Yeah. He's been reading this. That's why we were possibly talking about it. I didn't even ask about Darren.

Our friend, Darren Doan, I found out, did one of his music videos, and so I was going to ask him about that. Yeah, so that's exciting.

Someone else has a question here. What does it mean when the Bible says, have nothing to do with false teachers?

I didn't leave a church because of Hillsong Bethel. Am I being legalistic? No. No, you're not.

No. Yeah, I mean, that's what's been hard, especially with those two groups specifically.

Joy knows when we first started the church, all we did was we didn't have enough people.

We didn't have a band. Yeah, or even someone to lead worship, so we were watching Hillsong and Bethel music videos.

That was our worship, and it was good. It was good for the crowd we had at the time, but then Bethel especially started just falling off the map theologically, and we had to exonate any

Bethel stuff. And even Hillsong now, it depends who you talk to, I know. Right. They're at least, at the minimum, towing the line of full -on heresy if they haven't.

Well, and that can be enough of a reason to just, well, that is enough of a reason to just avoid someone overall.

Like John was saying, I don't think there's any harm generally in judging a song based off of its content.

But there are plenty of times when you can just say, that music is coming from a heretic, so I'm not going to necessarily waste my time measuring the content of their stuff.

I'm just not going to. There's nothing wrong with that, and we should be discerning.

Oh, absolutely. I've heard even Pastor James talk about this in Divine Line in years past. So many

Christians I know, growing up, would listen to Phillips, Craig, and Dean, and they're not even

Trinitarian. Right. But their music is good, and it honors

Christ, but they're not Christians. They don't believe in the Trinity. So how do you balance that?

Well, and like John was even saying, sometimes that represents where they're at in their discipleship, too.

So if you hear something questionable in a song that was written in 1985, it's possible that the person who wrote that feels differently about it now.

Right, exactly. And what I'm about to say, I realize some people probably will be really upset about.

Sorry. But I appreciate what John said. There's a difference between what we're doing in corporate worship and songs you listen to at home.

I think there is a line there of importance. Now, that doesn't mean you can go home and listen to bad theology songs and stuff like that, but I'll be honest, there's some songs from Hillsong that are still like, at certain times,

I'm feeling a certain way, like I need to listen to that song, and it's encouraging. Well, and we both listen to secular music, even.

Right. Oh my goodness. So obviously, we also believe that there's freedom to enjoy art that isn't,

I mean, well, I think, so let me just put it this way. I think there are, I think we have quite enough

Christian art critics and not enough Christian artists. Right.

And I do think that it's, this is something that, disciplines are something

I've been thinking about in my own personal life. And I think it is much easier to be an art critic than to be an artist.

And making art, making, learning an instrument, learning how to paint, securing a subject, and executing art is a discipline.

It is not, you don't do nothing and it happens. And so I think that Christians need to start focusing on worthwhile disciplines and not necessarily taking the easy route all the time.

Because it's very easy to commentate, which I say as I sit here commentating.

So let me just tell you how easy it can be. Yeah, it's really easy. But yeah, my point is just,

I would, I do not give Bethel or Hillsong the green light. Yeah. Personally.

But I, yeah, that's my statement is less art critics and more artists.

Amen to that. Both are good. Both are good, but I just see a lot of critics.

And not enough people, people that just want a naysay and they're not actually interested in contributing anything valuable other than their own opinion, which is fine sometimes.

Yeah. But the world is not just opinions. The world can be real things, real made, created things.

Yeah, absolutely. Amen to that. All right. Well, I'm going to switch. I'm just reading some of these comments that are making me laugh.

My computer died. Oh, okay. Sorry. That's just how it goes. My computer is kind of old.

So the battery lasts, like when I unplug it, it's like you have 26 minutes from now.

You're at 100 % battery. I know that. But you've got 26 minutes.

It happens. It happens. So I'll switch gears here for a second and then we'll wrap the show up.

But if you guys happened to see earlier this week, we did a live stream about the abortion bill we're doing here.

Well, I keep saying we, but Walt Blackman has put forth here in Arizona.

I keep saying we because we've been helping and working with him. I just wanted to mention a couple of things because I know people have been asking and I want to get the word out.

So basically, Walt put up, dropped two bills here the last, well, the first one was on the 22nd of January.

We've talked about which you can go to HB2650 .com to see the status of that.

You can sign the petition. You don't have to live here in Arizona for that. So if you get a chance to go to that, please sign the petition.

Help us out with that. So basically, that bill right now is just kind of sitting in limbo. And the

Speaker of the House here in Arizona, Rusty Bowers, he's sitting on it.

And he has the ability to put it into committee and he hasn't. And Rusty's a very sweet man.

I've met him. He says he's pro -life. So we've been encouraging him to, hey, Rusty, let's get this bill to committee so that it can get read and get voted on.

Because if it's not, I think tomorrow's the deadline and it's technically dead after tomorrow if it's not read.

So he has the opportunity to get that bill moving forward.

And also with a man named Frank Pratt who is also able to – oh,

I'm sorry. Let me back up. Frank Pratt is with the second bill I forgot to mention. So the second bill is – oh, no,

I forgot the number. HB 2877. So the second bill that Walt dropped was essentially saying that as the state of Arizona, we're going to defy

Roe v. Wade. Roe v. Wade was a court decision. It wasn't law. 13 -3603 is the current bill on the books in Arizona, has been since the 70s.

It criminalizes abortion, makes it illegal. So the second bill essentially says you need to enforce this bill.

Ignore Roe and enforce this bill that's already on the books. And so that one is being held up then by Frank Pratt.

And so we did a live feed, a live stream this week on Tuesday.

We were out in Rusty's neighborhood just with signs and just encouraged him to do the right thing.

So anyways, you can contact Rusty Bowers at rbowers at azleg .gov.

So that's rbowers at azleg .gov.

And you can call his office at 602 -926 -3128.

And he's in room 223 here in the house in Arizona. And for the other bill as well, you can also contact, reach out to Frank Pratt.

His email is fpratt at azleg .gov. So that's f -p -r -a -t -t at a -z -l -e -g .gov.

And his office number is 602 -926 -5761. That's room 113.

So if you guys are listening and you want to help here in Arizona end abortion, we can criminalize it immediately.

Please reach out to these gentlemen and encourage them to do the right thing, to be courageous, and to help end abortion.

Yeah, support can be a huge motivator for politicians. Yes, absolutely. Just knowing that they have people that are saying, yeah, please do this.

They need to feel some pressure, yeah. Right. So, yeah,

I think that about wraps up the show. Like I said, Pastor Jeff is on a sabbatical, and he won't be here next week either.

So we're scheduled to have Darren Donan to talk about. I don't know if the camera is on.

So if you hate when it's just Luke and I and we talk about music, I saw a few people in the comments that were like, mm,

I don't like this. Well, you just don't have to listen. But we're just warning them. Darren is going to be on. We're going to have a great time.

Yes, that's right. If you want to stay home and have a horrible time, that's fine. So we will be talking about free speech apocalypse if that camera is on.

Over there you can see the poster I have Darren. And actually we will have an exciting announcement about that.

It's been getting a lot of play lately. Right. Well, pretty much it's a topic that doesn't really go out of style right now, unfortunately.

One day I hope someone looks at the poster and is like, what's that? Maybe some of our great, great grandkids or something like that.

Maybe sooner. Who knows? Yeah, that would be awesome. So anyways, we'll hopefully have him on as the plan next week. And we'll talk about that and make an exciting announcement.

So as always, thank you everyone for your support. You can go to ApologiaStudios .com and sign up for all access.

Oh, I should mention that our website is, we're rebuilding it.

And the rebuild is almost complete. And then we can start migrating all the content over to the new site.

And it's going to be even more awesome and better. So we're looking for that. I know as well, we've been talking about Vons and you.

And that's being built as well. That's another ongoing project, yeah. Lord willing, within the next month, we should start having some content going up on there.

So we'll be looking for that. But you can go to ApologiaStudios .com to sign up for all access. You keep the lights on.

We mean that. We thank you for partnering with us. Of course, you can also go to EndAbortionNow .com to get involved in our fight to end abortion.

Not just here in the U .S., but in six other countries as well.

And we've been helping a lot in Northern Ireland right now. And those brothers are amazing. And I love them. And I'm encouraged by them.

And yeah, so ApologiaChurch .com as well. You can go check out stuff there. And obviously YouTube and Facebook and all that good stuff.

So thank you, everyone, for your support. I'm going to get this next song here pulled up.

Thank you, Joy, as well. Is it going to be a Skillet song? It is. How did they know?

I know, right? Well, you only get two, I guess, in and out. This is a great album.

Yeah. Sometimes the older stuff is the best stuff. They've had a lot of bit of a change in music over the years.

They've kind of ebbed and flowed with stuff. They definitely don't sound like this anymore, but I love this album.

This is like the nostalgic stuff. Brings you back memories of high school. Not quite high school for me.

Well, it's one of those things where you think it's newer than it is.

It came out when you were really young, but you discover it when you're a certain age.

How old were you when you, do you remember? This came out in 96. Yeah, I was going to say, well, in 96

I was seven years old. But then I probably discovered it like 11, 12, 13.

And, of course, I thought it was this new great thing that had been around for a while. And by then they were probably in some kind of techno stage or something.

Very electronic. So that's probably about the time you discovered it. They were actually past the sound. That's okay.

Thank you again for John. He's awesome. You guys can go check him out. Support him. He's really great.