Abortion, What We Believe, Part 24

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

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ChumbaCasino .com. No purchase necessary, void, or prohibited by law. 18 plus terms and conditions apply. See website for details. And so we say the modern debate on the issue of abortion finds the roots in the creation of man.

01:10

In other words, where does it root it in evolutionary thinking? This is a byproduct of evolution, thinking that we've evolved.

01:23

Rap Report with your host, Andrew Rapaport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application.

01:28

This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

01:38

Welcome to another edition of the Rap Report. I'm your host, Andrew Rapaport, joined by Mr.

01:45

Budley. How you doing, bud? Hey, I'm good. Budley, where'd you come up with that? You must have looked at my Twitter page or something.

01:51

Yeah, that's from your old Twitter. We have, by God's providence, the topic today we're going to deal with is the topic of abortion.

02:00

Now, I know what we're going to say is two weeks old by the time you hear this, because, well, the podcast has to go through editing and whatnot.

02:08

But, but what happened yesterday, Bud? Oh, what happened yesterday?

02:14

A great cause for rejoicing among the saints because justice, constitutional justice prevailed and Roe was overturned and returned to the states for their deliberation.

02:28

Yeah, we could say common sense returned to the Supreme Court.

02:34

And that's really what you're seeing is, and people are up in arms because they're arguing, but this was the law.

02:41

This is, you know, this is what the court has said. It shouldn't be overturned. Well, what the court did was say that what the court said yesterday, basically, in their, well, they said it a while ago, but what came out was that they said what was done 40 plus years ago was wrong.

02:57

And they corrected it. Now, for all the people who are saying, because you're going to hear this from people, you're going to hear people going, but this was the ruling and it shouldn't have been overturned.

03:06

Do you believe that that's really, I mean, a consistent argument you can make? I want you to think about that.

03:12

When you're talking to someone and they make that case to you, ask them, are you really concerned about consistency?

03:19

Because do you think that Dred Scott should have been overturned then? Should we still have slaves?

03:25

Should we still have that? Because that was the law of the land. No, there are times where we end up realizing that lawyers, judges, lawmakers make bad decisions.

03:37

This was one of them. It was corrected. That's what we saw in this ruling.

03:42

And I would say Justice Thomas is the only one that has it really right in saying, hey, it's not just this, but everywhere where this argument was used needs to be overturned because it wasn't abortion that they ruled shouldn't have been the case.

04:00

They argued that the way they came to federalizing it isn't the case.

04:06

Now, what I would love to have seen was that they just assign human rights to the child in the womb.

04:13

That would have immediately made it illegal, which is what it should be because that is a human in the womb.

04:21

And that would have solved the dilemma altogether. Before we get into the topic of the doctrinal statement on abortion and why it's there and what it says, let's talk a little bit about what happened with this court case and what the ruling means and what it doesn't.

04:40

So what the Supreme Court did was not outlaw abortion. I know,

04:45

I know. I got my email from moveon .org within 20 minutes of the ruling coming out.

04:52

So they had it ready. They were ready to go, oh, we got to overturn all these Republicans. We got to stop the

04:58

Republicans. They had all been geared up. I think that's part of why it was leaked was so that all these people can get announcements ready.

05:06

Yeah, they had to get their arguments ready. So yeah, I mean, there's some nefarious agendas at work here.

05:12

We certainly know that. Well, yeah, when you're promoting death, how can it not be nefarious? No kidding, yeah.

05:18

Yeah, you're the party of death. I mean, just remember, folks, the Democrat Party are the ones that fought for slavery.

05:25

They're fighting for the killing of children in the womb. At what point do you say, yeah, we should really back them?

05:32

They're fighting now for mental illness to be accepted and celebrated.

05:39

So, I mean, it's just a lot of things wrong with that party, I would argue. But the thing that we end up seeing is what did this do?

05:45

It didn't outlaw abortion. And it is interesting because you're hearing a lot from the left saying that this outlaws abortion.

05:54

However, at the same time, you're hearing Governor Newsom, for example, who's saying that they're going to expand abortion in his state.

06:02

Now, wait, how could overturning Roe eliminate what you're gonna expand?

06:09

These two cannot be the same. They're mutually exclusive. And that is the point.

06:15

What this ruling does is it will make the states the ones to arbiter whether this will be legal or illegal in their state.

06:26

In other words, that's the way it always had been. The issue that they ruled was not whether abortion is legal or not.

06:33

That wasn't the ruling. They ruled whether the federal government has the right to force it to be legal or not.

06:45

And so what they've done is push it down to the states. Is that what we as Christians would be, should we be rejoicing over that?

06:53

Well, to an extent. I mean, there's, I think, about 17 states that they're gonna make it illegal, but that can change.

07:00

Yeah, I read that anywhere. I mean, there's so many at this point and this early after the decision, you know, there's so many different opinions and assessments of what could or couldn't happen.

07:10

I've read anywhere from 24 to 26 states. So you're talking about half the states that seem to be oriented towards total ban on abortion and the other half, either restricted or maybe even unlimited, as Newsom is indicating in California, an expansion.

07:30

So yeah, the Christians do need to rejoice on this, but they also need to understand that it's taken it from a single federal level fight to now 50 separate fights.

07:41

Correct, correct. Now it's actually more difficult to get this made illegal.

07:48

And this is why I say what I was praying for, knew it would never happen, but praying, hoping that Lord would prevail, that they would just assign human rights to all humans, even humans in the womb.

08:01

Really what I wanted to see, truthfully, after they leaked it, I wanted to see all the conservative justices turn and say, because it was leaked, we're doing this.

08:15

Like, since you're threatening our lives, you know, you did this to threaten our lives, we're going to up the ante and just make it illegal altogether.

08:25

Well, I mean, that's a good point, just as an aside. Christians, we need to really be praying for the safety of these justices.

08:33

It's paramount and we're commanded to in scripture. So we need to pray particularly in light of this, you know, for their safety, for their wisdom and their steadfastness.

08:44

Well, we saw it at Kavanaugh's house when someone planned to kill him. You end up seeing, which by the way, is just crazy to think about that a guy was going to use a gun to kill

08:56

Kavanaugh because he was afraid that Kavanaugh was going to be too open to the second amendment.

09:02

Like, wait, wait, you're against guns. You're against guns, but you have a gun that you plan on killing someone. You're against Kavanaugh because you think guns will kill people and you're carrying a gun to kill someone.

09:14

Like, you know, okay, we can't make this stuff up. Well, you know, let me interject something else. You get to do rabbit trails all the time.

09:20

Let me do one. So here's the other element of that that I just find completely - Well, it is my show. Well, I know,

09:26

I know. You get to do rabbit trails on your show. I know, that's true. And I would like to thank Rick Warren for this opportunity, but nevertheless.

09:35

If you remember the Kyle Rittenhouse case, the left was all up in arms because this youngster, in their view, this guy crossed state lines with a gun.

09:49

That's a big no -no for them. But now Roe has come out and I am already seeing what they're promoting as, and you're seeing companies support this, abortion tourism.

09:59

We're going to pay for you to cross state lines for you to commit murder. I mean, there's hypocrisy there,

10:06

I think. Yeah, Oregon has said that they're going to, and I think this is, hey, if they want to waste taxpayer dollars to fly people or transport people to Oregon so that they can get an abortion,

10:18

I mean, what we're seeing is a greater separation from the right and the left. And you're going to see states,

10:24

I mean, it is going to be a greater divide at the state level, I think, because of this. Now, I think, you know, you hinted toward this, but you were planning,

10:33

I think, to thank someone specifically for this ruling, correct? I mean, isn't there some one individual that we can thank for the ruling that we have?

10:43

And I think a lot of people think it's Donald Trump, which by the way, a lot of people who were, could not vote for Trump because he's not pro -life enough.

10:52

Well, we wouldn't have had this ruling that so many of those people are rejoicing in had we not had Donald Trump.

10:57

He was the most pro -life president we've ever had. Is he as pro -life as, you know, is he an abolitionist?

11:04

I don't think so, but he was far more pro -life and got far more done than anyone else.

11:11

So is it Trump that we should be thanking for the ruling? I mean, there is someone, bud,

11:16

I think that you want to thank for this ruling because he did it all, right? He just sort of did it for the opportunity here.

11:22

And I mean this in a jocular way and certainly not in a blasphemous way. I was going to ask you, shouldn't we pause and thank

11:28

Rick Warren for all he's done here with Roe v. Wade? I think we should.

11:34

I mean, and for folks who don't understand that, maybe you can explain, bud, what happened at the

11:40

Southern Baptist Convention. And this is really going to be, could be a rabbit trail for us, but, and just so people understand, the

11:47

Southern Baptists get together once a year, they have their convention, they send what's called messengers.

11:52

Those are people who represent each church that are allowed to go to the microphone and ask questions, make statements, put things up for proposal.

12:03

Now I'm going to state, I think Tom Buck was not allowed to speak.

12:09

And he was a messenger. He wanted to speak on the whole thing they were making a big deal about abuse and someone was abusing him because they were blackmailing him from within a seminary.

12:20

He was not allowed to speak, but Rick Warren was, and he wasn't even a messenger.

12:25

And messengers are only given like two minutes. Rick Warren had like five to six. So he wasn't even allowed, he wasn't a messenger.

12:35

He was, he did not have the right to speak, but they allowed that and they shut down Tom Buck. I mean, hypocrisy a little maybe?

12:43

Yeah, yeah. But what did Rick Warren say that everybody is crediting Rick Warren with well, basically everything under the sun?

12:51

Well, it was just, it is exactly like you said, messengers can come to the floor microphones and make a statement or make a recommendation or whatever.

12:59

Well, he showed up. There's a little bit of background to this. Last year's SBC convention, there was a motion that Saddleback Church needed to be disfellowshipped because they had ordained women into the pastorate.

13:12

And the response from the executive committee or the credentials committee or whomever was to come this year at this year's convention.

13:21

Well, that got postponed. Well, Warren comes to the microphone. The issue is not in play.

13:28

Warren comes to the microphone and says, effectively, I'm not here to defend myself and then proceeds for that five to six minutes to defend himself and all that he's done, the number of churches he's planted, the number of people he's baptized, the 1 .1

13:42

million pastors he's trained, more than all the SBC seminar. I mean, this guy is just up there bloviating in pride and taking credit for all these things.

13:52

And it was just an egregious example of arrogance, you know, in my view.

13:57

So you've seen all these memes on social media about, you know, I saw one where, you know,

14:04

Paul said a man was taken up to heaven 14 years ago. And Rick Warren says, I am that man. I mean, just all these ridiculous things.

14:12

And it's born of this really arrogant and prideful presentation that he did there in those six minutes at the floor.

14:19

It's ridiculous. And it is a sign of the continuing decomposition of the

14:25

SBC that they didn't disfellowship this guy and his church. No, in fact, they took that issue and they're now evaluating, because Rick Warren's whole argument is he's got some women who are now pastors in his church, three of them.

14:39

And so that was the issue. And now he made this distinction between the office of a pastor and the role of a pastor.

14:47

And the SBC is now evaluating that. Yeah. Rather than just saying, no. It's between the office and what he calls the gift of pastoring.

14:55

So he's making a distinction between these two things, essentially the same as, you know, role, but he's calling it a gift.

15:04

Yes, thanks for the correction. You're right. And so what you end up seeing though is they did this this year's convention in Rick Warren's backyard.

15:12

I don't know when they decided where the convention was going to be, but by having it in that area, fewer conservatives were going to be there.

15:21

And so a lot of people are making the argument that that was planned to be able to give

15:27

Rick Warren this platform and he shouldn't have to travel far for it. Yeah, I don't know. But they do make these arrangements a few years in advance.

15:35

I mean, they do stage these things out. So who knows. Here again, there's an agenda, a narrative at work and you've got some elitists that are controlling that narrative, accomplishing much to the degradation of the denomination.

15:49

That's right. I think I officially called the SBC dead last year, but I think some others are starting to get on board.

15:57

So if you see the memes, that's why everyone's saying, I mean, just to give you context, Rick Warren said that he trained 1 .1

16:03

million pastors. And just so you have an idea, there's a little over 300 ,000 pastors in America.

16:10

So you do the math and realize Rick Warren is saying that he trained more than every pastor in America.

16:17

But Rick's global, Andrew. He is, he is, but the thing is he didn't train them.

16:24

They showed up to his seminars. They showed up to, they read his book. Like that's not training. That's not what you get in a seminary because he's making the comparison far more than all the seminaries combined.

16:34

Well, yeah, but you're not doing the same level of training either. No, I think it's a subscriber list to pastors .com

16:40

or something. That's what he's got. Yeah, I mean, look, I can claim by his rationale,

16:46

I can claim that I have trained thousands of people who've bought my book.

16:51

You know, I train them in theology. If you got my book, what do we believe? I trained you. That's a ridiculous argument just because thousands of people have bought that book doesn't mean

17:02

I've trained them in theology. It means they read my book. Yeah. Just like everyone else reads a book.

17:09

It's not training. So right there, I mean, but it was a thing where he was boasting right after saying he's not going to.

17:16

Now I will apologize at this moment, just if you can hear the guy that does the lawn loves to come right when we're recording.

17:23

You know, he got to talk to the neighbor. It's hard.

17:28

You know, you got to be careful with it. You know, you got to keep good relations with the neighbor, but he works five days a week and Saturday's probably the only day he can.

17:36

So if you hear that, sorry. So let's get into the topic. Before we do, why don't we take this time to take a quick break for our sponsor and that would be

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18:36

So why don't we get into the series? And we've been going through this series on what we believe.

18:42

This is from the doctrinal statement at strivingforeturning .org. And I was actually talking to a pastor recently who is planting a church or revitalizing a church.

18:53

And he's having to write a doctrinal statement. He has to put together a bylaws for the church.

18:59

And he came out to our website. He contacted me, he said, can I basically lift your doctrinal statement here?

19:06

He's like, this is written exactly, I don't think I can improve on this. And I said, well, I'm sure you could.

19:13

I had to tell him that when it comes to certain sections under there's certain parts of soteriology and certain parts that we get to on eschatology that I will admit

19:23

I lifted from Grace Community Church because I just couldn't write it better. So mostly the eschatology part, because that's not really my strong suit.

19:32

So I told him I had to give him warning. So it's not really, you know, litanizing it, but.

19:40

You can't steal truth, right? Yeah, you know how I mentioned it now, this rabbit trail.

19:46

You know, the other thing that happened at the SPC is they did not pick up the, basically many people's request and many messengers that wanted it voted on that people could not steal other people's stuff.

19:59

It's called plagiarism. It's kind of what Ed Litton, the president had done and the previous president before him had done.

20:06

So it's just another thing. They wanted to protect their elitists, but okay, off that rabbit trail.

20:12

So as we go through this, why are we going through this series? Because a doctrinal statement is very important.

20:18

And if you've been following with us, it tells us what we believe and what we don't believe. And there's a lot more when it tells us what we believe, that's saying there's a lot of things we don't believe that are in there that we have to be aware of.

20:31

And so the section we're at now, we're wrapping up the section on the doctrine of man. And with this, there's a section in here on abortion.

20:42

And so before you read this bud, let me explain why I put this in here. Some would say it's not a theological topic.

20:48

Yes, it is. Some would say this is a cultural topic. Okay, it is that too.

20:54

Why include this? And truthfully, if I was to update this doctrinal statement today, there's some other cultural issues

21:01

I would include beyond abortion, such as same -sex relationships, such as gender issues, because that deals with the nature of man and that is coming under attack.

21:14

I would include the definition of marriage. These are things I would end up including because in our generation, you have people who are trying to argue for some of these things as Christians, and therefore they need to be clarified.

21:34

And you say, wait, there are people arguing for abortion? Well, hey bud, have you seen since the ruling?

21:40

I mean, I have seen multiple, multiple, like everybody saying Roe overturned, praising a great day for America, praising the court, praising the ruling, talking about Roe being overturned.

21:53

Have you seen anything from Russell Moore from the SBC? You know, I have not seen anything from Russell Moore.

21:59

Also, I have not seen anything from Desiring God or John Piper. I looked this morning as we're recording.

22:06

I'm like, oh, I wonder what those guys say. I haven't seen a thing from either. Their silence is kind of deafening on this subject.

22:15

Yeah. You think it has something to do with Trump? They were kind of anti -Trump? Yeah, yeah.

22:21

I think a lot of it on that, but I think a lot of it is they're so tied into the cultural issues.

22:26

They don't want to go against the culture. And that is part of the argument. There are some who will make an argument that you can be a

22:34

Christian and have abortion. And by the way, as someone who was on the board of directors of a crisis pregnancy center for many years, unfortunately, many within the church, meaning they attend church, have had abortions.

22:52

We know from the clients we would have, some even pastor's daughters, some even brought in by a pastor.

23:02

So this is a thing where there's those that say they're against abortion, but then when it comes to their own life, they're willing to kind of set that aside for maybe keeping embarrassment out of the family or whatnot.

23:16

But the thing is that there are those who make that case. And I think that I should, and maybe in the future,

23:22

I will expand this doctrinal statement to include some gender issues, same sex marriage issues or marriage, because I think those are two issues nowadays that need to be included to say, this is what we do believe, which means these other things are what we do not believe.

23:48

And so what we're gonna talk about here today in this series is what do we believe about abortion?

23:55

And I have this in here because of the fact that this is not so much something that started within the church as an argument, but this is something in the culture that's affecting the church.

24:06

And this is what we're trying to say with the doctrinal statement. This is where we stand on this issue.

24:12

So Bud, would you mind reading that paragraph on abortion? And if you folks, if you wanna follow along, just go to strivingforattorney .org,

24:18

go to the about section under about what we believe, click and expand the section on man and follow along.

24:25

There you go. All right, here's what it says under the category abortion. Abortion is the act of murdering an unborn child.

24:34

The modern debate on the issue of abortion finds its roots in the view of the creation of man.

24:40

Due to evolutionary thinking, the unborn child is called a fetus and treated as a parasite.

24:46

A full propagation view does not allow for abortion at any time or in any circumstances.

24:53

This statement is based on the fact that at the point of conception, the unborn child is a full human being with a physical body yet being formed, but nonetheless existing and a spirit.

25:07

Okay, so this is very clearly where we stand. And you can see why we don't think that what happened with the court yesterday went far enough.

25:16

Abortion is not a choice. Now, what you end up seeing is politically, everyone wants to frame it as in a positive way.

25:24

So we're pro -life. Well, okay, then we're pro -choice. They don't wanna say they're anti -life.

25:29

They don't wanna say they're pro -death. That doesn't sound good. That's not gonna win them the accolades. No, they're pro -choice.

25:36

I am pro -choice. I'll state this now. I'm pro -choice. I think you choose before having sex, not after.

25:45

That's the difference is what we have here is people who are using abortion as birth control.

25:52

They didn't wanna think about what they were doing. They just wanted to have some fun and be like, oh, but what about the case of rape and incest?

25:58

That's point like 1 % of the abortions, okay? So that's not the majority.

26:04

The majority is birth control. And if you want some good arguments, I'd encourage you to go listen to the rap report, or sorry, my

26:13

Apologetics Live episode I did recently. It was with Mark Spence.

26:18

So we talked about abortion, going through some arguments against abortion. So I recommend you go in and check that out as well.

26:26

But abortion is the act of murder. That's what we're saying. We have a commandment against this.

26:33

Yeah, the child in the womb is a child. They're a human being. That's what scripture would tell us.

26:40

At conception, they have a spirit. They exist. They're still forming. And we could go through what's called the

26:46

SLED argument. And people will hear that. That's a way of arguing against abortion.

26:52

I think Scott Klusendorf developed the SLED argument, which is, S stands for the size.

26:58

In other words, the fact that someone is smaller doesn't mean they're less human. So the fact that they're small in the womb doesn't mean they're not human any more than a two -year -old is less human than an 80 -year -old.

27:11

The L is for level of development. The fact that one person is more developed, so inside the womb they haven't developed enough yet, doesn't mean they're not human.

27:21

That argument fails because you still have a two -year -old that would then be less human than an 80 -year -old.

27:27

You have people who could be six years old but still not fully developed. They have handicaps.

27:33

E for environment. In other words, it doesn't matter where they are, the location. So in the womb doesn't make them not human and suddenly being outside the womb make them a human.

27:43

So what you end up with when you look at this is these are arguments people try to make.

27:49

And the last one that they do, the one that you end up seeing there with the environment is they will argue because they're not fully formed, they're not able to breathe air, things like that.

28:01

Well, that doesn't change. That doesn't make someone human. The last one,

28:08

D, is degree of dependency. And this is the idea that it doesn't matter how dependent someone is.

28:15

And people go, oh, well, they're dependent upon the mother to live. So is a newborn. You can't give birth to a child and just leave them on their own for many years.

28:25

18, now maybe 25 years before you can. Well, I know some 40 -year -olds probably.

28:32

Yeah, I know some 30, 40 -year -olds still living in mommy's basement playing video games and they're still dependent on mommy and daddy.

28:39

The dependency doesn't change, make them human or not. So we can make that argument and you can argue that way.

28:47

The biblical argument is, as we said, they are a life, they're human from conception.

28:53

That's what God says. God created this person. God creates, now when

29:00

I'm saying this is, God created the process in which we have procreation.

29:06

But God's the creator. He created Adam and Eve. He created this ability to procreate.

29:12

And therefore, God is the one who defines what life is.

29:18

So if God says that life begins in the womb, then guess what? Life begins in the womb.

29:26

It's just that simple. He gets to say, he's the final say. Exactly, and so when we're looking at this, we're saying it's murder and God has spoken very clearly, but as you mentioned, against murder.

29:38

And so we put in this statement some of the arguments that modern debate is making.

29:43

And so we say the modern debate on the issue of abortion finds the roots in the creation of man.

29:51

In other words, where does it root it in evolutionary thinking? This is a byproduct of evolution, thinking that we've evolved.

30:00

In fact, for many years, evolution used to argue that, and you still, which

30:06

I can't believe, still have these pictures in some science textbooks today, which tells you that what they're teaching in science textbooks has nothing to do with science, but they have pictures of children in the womb at different stages and they try to say, oh, see, they're going through the whole evolutionary process.

30:22

Here they are as a fish and then a reptile, and then eventually a human being, all within the womb.

30:28

So trying to argue, we go through these stages and the pictures that they have in there were doctored. They never kind of point that out, but still taught in some science textbooks.

30:39

But due to the evolutionary thinking, an unborn child is seen as nothing more than a parasite.

30:45

Now they call it a fetus. Fetus is a Latin word for little child.

30:54

Hmm, I mean, that's telling you what it is. We can argue from a cultural perspective, the hypocrisy.

31:02

I mean, you have all these rules protecting, if you kill a woman who's pregnant, it's a double murder, but if a doctor does it, it's perfectly legal.

31:12

I mean, there's just so much hypocrisy there. But this is how they view it.

31:17

You'll hear them say arguments like, it's just a clump of cells. Right. The answer back is, so are you.

31:24

Does that mean I can kill you? Every one of us is a clump of cells, maybe bigger clump of cells.

31:31

Some of us way bigger clump of cells, especially around the waist area, but hey, you're a thinner clump of cells when you were younger and then you started, your metastasis kind of slows up and now you're a bigger clump of cells, but we're still a clump of cells.

31:43

Because Rick Warren, back to that, I thought he was going to get up there and defend the Daniel diet, but obviously he didn't do that.

31:56

I'm sorry. Please continue. I apologize. So what you end up seeing is that the arguments they make are not scientific.

32:08

They're not logical. They're not consistent. If someone's going to say, well, it's not a human being. It's not a child.

32:14

Well, it has a separate DNA than the mother, could even have a separate gender than a mother. Although nowadays we can't define that until they get older, right?

32:22

But the reality is that you have a separate human being within the womb that could have a different blood type, definitely has a different DNA, could be a different gender.

32:36

So here's the thing. When you look at a parasite, you get a tapeworm and you have a tapeworm inside of a human being.

32:43

Do we say that that's not a tapeworm because it's within the human being?

32:49

And it's only a tapeworm when it leaves the human being. No, it's a tapeworm. It's always a tapeworm.

32:55

It's a tapeworm whether it's in the human being, outside the human being, wherever it is, it's a tapeworm because that's what it is.

33:01

Well, a human being inside the womb or outside the womb is still a human being. It doesn't matter where its location is.

33:08

That's one of the things that you end up seeing when you break down the arguments and be listening for it because folks,

33:13

I know it's been two weeks since the ruling, by the time you're hearing this and you're still having to argue against abortion because the arguments are still gonna, and they're going to continue up until the election,

33:26

I'm sure, because the Democrats have made it clear this is what they're gonna make the election about. It's gonna be all about abortion.

33:32

So the abortion issue is gonna be, maybe you're already sick of hearing it by the time you're listening to this because I probably will after two weeks of listening to the media.

33:42

But we have to break down the arguments that they make and address the actual arguments.

33:48

And most people in the streets, most people you come across do not think through the argument.

33:53

They go, well, it's just a choice. Let me tell a story of what happened. I think I may have shared this here,

33:59

Bud, on a previous episode, but I was in a grocery store right when the ruling got leaked, which it's amazing that no one seems to be interested to find out who that leaker is.

34:09

I mean, it shouldn't be very hard, but that's kind of gone silent, huh? But the thing that we ended up seeing is,

34:15

I'm in the store, this woman is just, she feels emboldened to give her views.

34:21

And she's saying to the cashier that she thinks it is idiotic that anybody would be against abortion.

34:29

And I'm standing there and she's making her views very loud and publicly. And I decided, you know what?

34:35

Part of the problem in the culture is that the culture has tried to make conservatives feel like they can't voice their opinion without some ramifications.

34:42

And the left are allowed to say whatever they want. Well, you voice your opinion in public? Well, then so will I. So I just turned to the woman and I said, you know, you're right, ma 'am.

34:50

We should definitely have the right to kill people. What am I doing? I'm framing it in the biblical view.

34:56

It is murder. That's why I'm against it. And she's suddenly, she's like, well,

35:02

I'm not saying that. I'm saying people should have a choice. I said, I agree. People should have the choice to murder people.

35:08

Wherever, whenever, whoever, right? Why limit murder just to the womb?

35:14

And she turns and says, well, I would never do it, but I think others should have the right. I turned to her,

35:19

I said, you're right. I would never murder somebody, but I think others should have the right to do it. What do I do? I'm just taking the argument and expanding it from within the womb to outside the womb.

35:27

That's all I was doing with her. But she never had to actually defend what she was saying because she's living in a culture where the left just feels they have the right to say everything.

35:37

They're in the echo chamber because they've silenced all the conservatives so that they don't feel that they should be speaking.

35:43

And the only thing this woman's ever heard was her point of view. And so she went, you as a man have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body, to which

35:52

I said, excuse me, how dare you assume my gender? And she looked at me incredulously and was like, you know, you're a man, which is kind of funny because how do you know?

36:06

I mean, we're in this generation where I could be anything. I could be a cat today because she actually knows there's a difference between man and woman, right?

36:13

She wants to, I said, well, yeah, so you don't think men should make any decisions for women?

36:19

She said, no. I said, well, then you should be against abortion because it was seven men who voted for that.

36:25

Not a single woman voted for that. In fact, we had a woman vote to overturn

36:32

Roe. Yeah. So more women voted to overturn Roe versus Wade than voted for Roe versus Wade, just saying.

36:41

To which she kind of walked out of the store, huffing and puffing. And then I apologized to the lady who was in front of me and the cashier.

36:49

I just said, you know, my mother taught me that, you know, if you have opinions, you should keep them to yourself. But if she wants to make them public, then

36:55

I can publicize mine. The lady in front of me was like, yeah, I can't believe, like what kind of person sits there and decides to openly talk about abortion?

37:02

Like such a controversial issue and then get upset about it. I mean, she was making no sense. Now, I don't know the lady in front of me, what her view was or wasn't, but in that short exchange, she realized that that woman did not make sense.

37:15

But what am I doing there? I'm challenging people with the arguments. Now, you're searing several arguments you can make against abortion within that because these are the ones that people make.

37:25

Now, some will make the issue of, well, you have a case of rape and incest. Well, the doctrinal statement answers that as well.

37:32

It's basically saying here, the full propagation view does not allow for abortion at any time in any circumstances.

37:41

Why? Because it is murder. You do not punish the child for the acts of the father if it's rape or incest.

37:49

It is not the child's fault. You punish the adult that did the rape or incest. Now, people say, but I don't want to have to live with this child.

37:59

I have to live with the suffering, the nine months. That's torture to the woman.

38:05

Okay, so someone gets in a car accident and they no longer can walk. Do we kill them?

38:10

I mean, they didn't have a choice in the car accident. Someone smashed into them. Do we say that someone's allowed to kill them?

38:18

You have a five -year -old, a 10 -year -old in a car accident. Someone smashes the car. They're quadriplegic.

38:26

Can the mother kill the child? Because, I mean, it reminds them of the car accident. It's such a tragedy.

38:31

And now they're deformed. Do they have that right? People would say, no, at least I hope. Well, granted, rape is a horrible thing.

38:40

Life happens. You can't sit there and say, well, because someone was raped,

38:45

I shouldn't have to live with the consequences. We live with the consequences of sin every day.

38:51

And to sit here and say that all I have, no, you don't have the autonomy over another human being.

38:57

You don't even have the autonomy over your own being. We're gonna get to that because I think you have some arguments from an article that we'll address.

39:06

But as we look through this, many people will make the case that with rape and incest, it's torture for the mother.

39:13

And therefore, we have to allow this. Every day, there are people all around the world that have things that happen to them that they don't like, that may be caused by someone else.

39:26

And that does not allow for us to murder a person. Just because a mother gets in a car accident with their 10 -year -old son, and now that child's a quadriplegic and the mother has to care for that child the rest of that child's life or the rest of her life, and that changes her life in every day as a reminder of that car accident, that doesn't mean the mother has a right to kill the child.

39:50

And just because some wicked, evil person can rape someone doesn't give the right to kill the child.

39:57

I had this argument made to me recently when I was at Purdue University. And one of the things I asked this lady, this woman who told me that she was raped and therefore she got an abortion because she would have taken her own life.

40:08

So this is the way the argument that she made was because she asked the question, in the case where you're having an abortion, which is what it would be, when you take the child's life because of the health of the mother.

40:22

In other words, if the child is in the flutopian tubes, you're stuck within there and developing, that'll kill the mother.

40:29

Well, it'll kill the mother and the child. And so there are times that it's not for the purpose of murder that they do those abortions, that is to save a life.

40:39

The goal is to save the mother's life. That's a totally different motivation than a killing of the child, especially at a convenience.

40:49

So this argument this girl made was because I said that, yes, there's times where to save the mother's life, a doctor may have to end the life of a child.

41:00

That does happen, but you're doing that out of a life -saving procedure. Her argument was, well,

41:06

I would have taken my life and that would have killed the child as well. So the abortion was life -saving, a life -saving procedure.

41:13

Well, if you would have taken your own life, you would have killed two people. The reality is, is that it still doesn't justify what she had done.

41:21

And one of the things I ended up asking her is, I asked her about pornography. Now this may not be a great thing to do, but I asked her her view of pornography because she's saying about rape.

41:31

Why did I do that? Because one thing we know, every rapist, every single one of them says they started with pornography.

41:40

Now that doesn't mean that everyone looks at pornography as gonna be a rapist. That doesn't work. But every rapist started with pornography and expanded, expanded, expanded, and kept wanting more and more and more.

41:51

She was totally in favor for pornography. She says she watches it regularly herself.

41:59

And yet she's against rape. I said, so you support the very culture that produces the rape culture.

42:05

And you say you're against rape. I'm trying to find ways to reason with her to show her that she's saying, well, rape is so wrong.

42:12

Then you shouldn't be supporting the industry that creates it. You should be totally against pornography then.

42:19

And I'll say this is that Mark Spence, when on the Apologetics Live show we did, gave a great argument for this, a little bit more detailed and I would take up way too much time, more time than we have here because that's a two hour show, answering that in a very pastoral way.

42:33

But it is a thing that you have to realize if you're dealing with someone as I was that was raped, you're dealing with a very sensitive emotional issue.

42:41

And so I tried to bypass that as much as I can. However, when it comes to abortion, even in the case of rape and incest, you cannot kill a child for your convenience.

42:53

So you don't have to deal with it. In fact, and this is part of Mark's answer, is the abortion often creates a worse suffering than the rape.

43:06

Living with the knowledge that you killed a human being, you killed your own child, that comes back to haunt women for years.

43:13

And so the one suffering is not eliminated by the second suffering.

43:20

Getting rid of that child does not remove the suffering that women suffered with the rape itself. They still suffer that.

43:27

So this doesn't solve the problem. And that's one of the things that we wanna do when we argue this is point that out.

43:34

So this would be, but a term that we use, I've been using it before, before I ever heard anyone else use it.

43:40

I started using the term back at when the movie 180 came out was the term abolitionist.

43:47

And I started using it because I was reading a book on John Brown and said, boy, a lot of the arguments he's making on the abolition of slavery fits for the abolition of abortion because both slavery and abortion, the base argument is ownership.

44:05

There is no difference between saying this is my property and this is my body. They're both ownership issues.

44:11

Actually, there is a difference. Slavery didn't end in the murder of a human being and abortion does.

44:19

But when you say this is my body, you're saying you own another human being. That's what you're saying.

44:26

And I can kill this human being because they are mine. I own them. That's the argument for slavery.

44:32

I can do whatever I want with this person. I own this person. They're my property. So I would be an abolitionist saying that we do not say we want to end abortion except for the cases of rape and incest.

44:44

No, we are against murder everywhere all the time. No cases that we support the killing of a human being.

44:54

But I know that someone in the audience is going, but Andrew, you just said that there's times to save the mother's life.

44:59

That's right. That's a lifesaving. That's not trying to murder someone. You're not killing someone.

45:07

You're saving someone. It's no different than, and this is the example that Mark Spence had given.

45:13

You see someone, two people, they're drowning. There's a child and a mother and you swim into the water.

45:18

You can only grab one of them. You choose to grab one of them and bring them to shore.

45:24

Your plan is to save both of them, but you can't get to the, you get to shore and it's too late. Does that mean you murdered the mother if you chose to grab the child first?

45:33

Did you murder the mother? No, you saved the child. The goal was to save both and you do everything you can to save both.

45:41

Even within the womb, you do everything you can to save both. But sometimes it gets to a point where you have to choose to save one.

45:48

That's a big difference. So let me finish up the statement. I know you got some questions from an article that we're going to deal with.

45:54

So the last part of this last sentence here, this statement is based on the fact that at the point of conception, an unborn child is a full human being with a physical body, though it's not yet fully formed, nonetheless, it still exists, and a spirit.

46:12

So you have both body and spirit at conception. And that is what makes it a human being.

46:21

And that child in the womb is a child. Now, that is the argument we're basing throughout all of this, is the fact that it is a child, a human being at conception.

46:35

So, Bud, before we get to your challenging questions for me, we're talking all about this child in a womb.

46:43

I've been sitting on some information for quite some time now. And I'm not actually, at the time of the recording of this,

46:50

Bud, I am not allowed to mention this publicly. But by the time this airs,

46:56

I will be allowed to mention this publicly. So I have some news.

47:02

Dealing with this issue of abortion and children in the womb, I can officially now publicly say,

47:10

I am a grandfather. No way. Yes way. Congratulations. My beautiful daughter has a child in the womb.

47:19

And so as I told her on Mother's Day, congratulations on your first Mother's Day. And she went, but it's not

47:26

Bud. And stopped right there and realized exactly why I was saying it. I said, you are a mother.

47:33

Which of course means, you know, I'm waking up every day. I roll over in bed and I'm waking up to a grandmother every day.

47:42

But that's okay. Cause she's waking up to a grandfather. So yes, I'm a grandfather. That's tremendous.

47:48

Congratulations. I didn't know that obviously. We have to wait until my side of the family now knows we're waiting next weekend.

47:55

My wife's family comes down and then they will hear. And then I'm allowed to announce it. You know, all this talk of abortion and I'm sitting here talking about children in the womb.

48:04

And I've been bottling this up for a couple of weeks now as all this abortion talk has been happening and discussion of children in the womb.

48:23

So to your challenging questions, you had an article from a while ago from in the Atlantic of a quote unquote pastor.

48:32

Well, yeah. And just to be clear, these are not my challenging questions. Really what

48:37

I was observing from this is that there is this segment of what is called the

48:42

Christian church that supports abortion. So genuine Christians who understand and would agree with the statement that we've got on striving for eternity that is abolitionist, it's against abortion.

48:54

They need to be somewhat prepared to answer just like you've done. And in a couple of anecdotal stories you've told about engaging with people on the issue.

49:03

But you will run into people who claim to be Christians who are pro abortion, they're pro choice all the way down the line.

49:11

And there was an article that is from 2019 in the Atlantic and it is just replete with all sorts of error.

49:19

But I thought I would read a couple of things from this interview with a minister in the

49:25

United Church of Christ. She believes that abortion should be...

49:31

Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, stop right there. I said it was full. She's not a pastor. I said it was full of all kinds of egregious error.

49:38

She believes abortion should be fully legal and accessible. And if you want to, you can put a note or a link in the show notes for this.

49:46

It's tragic, the thinking of this woman, but she defines herself as a Christian feminist.

49:52

I mean, that is a thing out there. There is one particular thing in here where she says the interviewer, it's an interview situation, and the interviewer says, just to be clear, what do you think is the

50:04

Christian theological argument for abortion? And this non -pastor pastor responds, quote, when people talk about our body is a temple of God and holy,

50:19

I see that as I have the right to choices over my body and the freedom to make the decisions that are right for me.

50:28

In Genesis, it says that God breathed God's Spirit into our lives. Christians would say the

50:34

Holy Spirit. Because of that, we're not puppets controlled by God because the image of God in us, we have freedom.

50:42

That's really what is clear to me is freedom. And then she goes on to cite Jesus. That they may have life and have it more abundantly.

50:50

So let's deal with this one. We're only gonna have time to deal with this one. You've pointed out before we went live on this, right?

50:57

I mean, this is a twisting of scripture. This is where people are trying to make the Bible seem like it says,

51:03

I mean, look at her, the original comment she says, our body is the temple of God and holy, right?

51:10

So that's biblical, right? We see that from Paul's argument. But how is Paul using the fact that our body is a temple?

51:19

He's not using that to say that we have full autonomy and we can make whatever choices we want over our body.

51:26

No, he's saying that we have to be good stewards of the body that God has given us. We need to make sure that we're healthy.

51:33

Why? Because we have to be good stewards of what God has provided. That's the argument. So what she's doing is taking, and you see this often, taking something, ripping it right out of all of its context, putting it into a new context and making it all about freedom.

51:52

Paul was not arguing for freedom. In fact, if you read Paul's writings, he doesn't argue that we have full autonomy.

51:59

In fact, he will have a whole book, Philemon, written to someone,

52:06

Philemon, about a slave, and he's sending the slave back to the owner, to the master.

52:12

He's not saying, you're free, your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. You can go, you know, ignore the rules and the laws of the land and you don't have to return.

52:21

No, he's sending the guy back to be a slave. That guy doesn't have the freedom.

52:26

Well, it turns out we think he did have some freedom, but that wasn't the slavery of the Bible where there was some protections.

52:33

This was Roman slavery where they didn't have those protections. And so what you end up seeing is her whole argument, the way

52:39

Paul argues, he doesn't argue for freedom the way she's arguing. So this is a complete twisting of scripture.

52:46

It's wreckagesis. You know, you're going to have to define the word you just created, though, for folks.

52:54

You've just wrecked scripture. You've wrecked the exegesis of scripture.

53:02

Absolutely, yeah. Oh, that is a good term, though. See, it's good to use terms like that because you say that,

53:08

I could see you using it on a street when someone says something like that. Dude, that's wreckagesis. What? That has nothing to do with Jesus.

53:16

I didn't wreck Jesus. No, you wrecked the exegesis. You did exegesis, which is different.

53:23

Folks probably don't know those differences. Exegesis is to get the meaning out of the text. Eisegesis is to put the meaning into the text.

53:30

Wreckagesis is just to completely ruin the text. There you go. All right, so with that, folks, this was a more fun episode to record because it was just on the day, like, had this happened the way it was supposed to, we would have recorded this a week or two ago.

53:57

And so by God's providence, we get to rejoice in the recording of this. So next week on the episode, we will not have the continuation of the doctrine of salvation.

54:09

We will start that the week after, probably, but we're gonna have a special episode next week.

54:14

And I would love to tell you about it, but it's a secret from Mr.

54:19

Bud. Bud the wiser doesn't know what's happening in the next episode.

54:25

So you wanna make sure you stay tuned to find out, well, we're gonna have to make sure we all record

54:30

Bud's response so that we get to find out the surprise. It's gonna be a fun episode.

54:36

I've refused to tell him what the next episode, even the topic, what we're gonna talk about.

54:42

He has no idea. He has been fretting over this for days, folks. The anxiety is building.

54:48

I know you can't see it. I can see it in his face. He probably didn't have a good sleep last night, just fretting over what is

54:54

Andrew planning? Well, you're gonna wanna stay tuned to find out. And with that, Bud, you know what?

54:59

I don't think I wanna know. Ah, that's a wrap. This podcast is part of the Striving for Eternity ministry.

55:05

For more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

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