Complementarianism vs Egalitarianism

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00:02
Good evening everyone we are Continuing on with our introduction to church life and ministry.
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This is class four which means This is the halfway point of the class We are at the halfway point and tonight's agenda is very simple We are going to recap our previous lesson and our reading assignment you all had the responsibility to read chapter 4 in the book We are going to spend the lion's share of our time tonight on number two, which is discussing the difference between Complementarianism and egalitarianism and if you are not familiar with those terms, those are actually not terms I used in the book So you'll you'll want to be we'll define them for you And the reason why I didn't use them in the book is not because they weren't around but just because they have become At least in my estimation have become more common now Than even they were when I was writing the book But they've been around for a long time But you'll hear more Pete you'll hear them being used a lot more now At least I am and then we're going to we're at number three just says examine relevant passages we're actually going to look at some scripture tonight and go all the way to the original languages and talk about what it means and how to define the terms and So I'm gonna put a little bit up on the board for you guys to see and then the last thing after our break is We're going to discuss The confusion of gender roles and that sort of goes along with the whole lesson So this whole night tonight is on the subject of gender and the local church So let's begin by recapping last week last week We looked at the offices in the local church the offices the only two offices that we are given Explicit requirements for or explicit explanations of what you have to have or be able to do to do these things is The office of elder and deacon somebody's about to knock on the door.
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I think Boy Not a prophet nor the son of a prophet, but I can see through a window Well, I saw him walking said walk by Come on in gentlemen So last week we talked about the elders and deacons and then we talked about missionaries both local and foreign and we discussed other needed positions in the church and Is there any questions about last week anything you went home and mulled over and you you needed to ask a question about Good All right.
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Well, let's now very quickly recap your reading assignment.
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You only had one chapter this week, which should be fairly Easy enough for you guys to be able to get through and the question that this chapter asked was does the Bible distinguish between the roles of men and women in the church and Tonight's lesson is going to center around the information contained in that chapter So I'm going to ask the question are there any questions? But but just know this you may ask a question and I say hold your question because we may be going over it So are there any questions? That you got from the reading in this week's Assignment, okay Okay, nothing else though.
03:28
No one else has any questions Okay, here's one thing though I want to before we even move into the lesson many of us Automatically have an opinion on this subject whether that opinion is biblically informed or not is Yet to be seen but most people have an opinion Whether it's like I said, it can be informed by where we grew up by our the way we were taught at home you know, there's all kinds of things that can inform our Understanding of this particular subject.
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In fact, I'll give you a history story about that.
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There was a Time in this church where there were female elders now This is we're talking many years ago before I was ever the pastor here But one of the ladies who was an elder when she found out that I Did not believe in female eldership She told me well The only reason you believe that is because that's what your mother taught you speaking actually of my stepmother And I said no, I believe my Position is biblically informed but there is some truth to a lot of people just have opinions that They were brought up with and they don't have a biblically informed opinion So my hope tonight is that if you don't have a biblically informed opinion you will when we leave That we don't simply just take for granted Whatever it is the church we grew up in because again if you came from a Methodist Church Or if you came from an Episcopal Church Then those churches affirmed female elders and deacons this church was used to be part of the disciples of Christ Which was a very liberal denomination theologically and biblically and they affirmed female deacons pretty much across the board So the our female elders rather so the idea that you might have grown up in that is certainly not Beyond the pale because that's what I grew up in and Bobby of course grew up in this church as well So we had an opportunity to see it firsthand in fact I'll tell you a secret which is now going to be online.
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So there's no secret to it my Ordination certificate is signed by a lady Because she was still an elder when I became ordained Yeah, no, it's not an all-in-void.
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It's still my ordination certificate, but it's an interesting piece of history It's a bit, huh? Yeah, certainly.
05:58
Yeah, it begins a certainly an interesting conversation So tonight we're going to discuss this subject gender roles and the church and we're going to look at Complementarianism versus egalitarianism and this is not just an opportunity to throw out big words, even though I do tend to like big words because I Enjoy the English language and taking it apart Those are big words, yeah barely fits on the on the screen there and so I'm going to give you the definitions of both very quickly just back and forth while I'll give you both the Complementarian position in Simple terms before I read this in simple terms This is the position that would see a distinction between men and women's roles in the church that men and women are equal spiritually But their roles are different and they are meant to complement each other not exactly have the same roles so the idea of complement means to to complete the and to fulfill a role that is not the same and We would think of Adam and Eve when Eve was created she was created not as Adams mirror, but as his Helper as his counterpart, but not the exact same.
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So the complementarian position.
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I'll read it to you now the theological view that although men and women are created equal in their being and Personhood they are created to complement and by the way, the word complement you'll notice is spelled Not like you normally think of complement with an eye where if I said, you know, Jackie you're your blouse looks nice or something That's a compliment.
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That's saying something nice to someone complement with an E In the middle is to complete That's that that's the concept So I understand the distinction there and it's they are created to complement each other via different roles and responsibilities as manifested in marriage family life Religious leadership and elsewhere so Complementarianism would say that the roles of men and women are not just Distinguishable within the church but distinguishable even within the home and even the greater society that there are different roles for men and women Let me throw this out there right now We don't have to debate it but just give you an example of how this would fit There was a long time where we did not allow women in combat Because we understood a distinction between men and women on the battlefield women could serve but they would serve in a role that was complementary to the men who were in battle and it's only recently that Those things have changed and we've been willing and even today I think it's still this way women are not subject to the same level of draft as men men can be brought into the Selective Service and Women Are not yet.
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There's there's all kinds of arguments that they should be I disagree, but that's another conversation for another time But the point is complementarianism is not just the church It sees men and women as different roles in the world as well in the remember I said there was three spheres of authority the the home the church and the state that each of those would see a Different relationship between men and women.
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Okay, I'll read the rest of it complementarianism holds That God has created men and women equal in their essential dignity and human personhood, but different and complimentary in function with male headship That's a something we're going to talk about a little while male headship in the home And in the church and that's quoted from theopedia again.
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I recommend theopedia as a useful resource Alright, so that's complementarianism.
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That's the position and I will tip my hand Of course, you probably already know this that is the position I hold that is the position our church teaches That is the position.
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I will support however in all fairness I will try tonight to explain the opposite position in a fair way not to simply Demean or diminish but to say here are people that hold a different position I certainly disagree with this position, but I want to be fair to their position.
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So their position would be called egalitarianism and Here is what this says the theological view that not only are all people equal before God in their personhood But there are no gender-based limitations of what functions or roles each can fulfill in the home the church and Society it is sometimes referred to as biblical equality The Term egalitarian is derived from the French word ego meaning equal Thus it involves affirming promoting or believing in equal rights for all people It is the hermeneutical hypothesis based on Interpretations of scripture that men and women are designed by their creator to have no gender-based Limitations of what functions or roles each can fulfill in the home the church and the society notice It's defined the same way.
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It's the home the church and the society it has no distinctions now In many ways this is a relatively recent argument Because it really is not something we see in most of church history this argument, huh? Well, we'll get to that and I agree but we'll get to that.
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But but my point is it's it's also it's also not historical it's recent because it follows the the trends are the trends of History and the trend of history is to move towards equality, which is actually not equality but if you watch the trend of history, it is an erasure of gender distinctions That's where we are we're no longer fighting for equality we're fighting for an erasing of gender Distinctions we're going to talk about that later as well.
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That's that's really this after the break we're going to talk about how the world is not only confusing the Distinction between the gender but it's trying to erase it Ross.
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You had something to say I Think God sees us as we are and And who we are even in our gender is part of who we are so I don't think that we'll be stripped of of that in the sense of now moving again, I don't We're in class I have to be careful how I say things but The new heaven in the new earth We will have a relationship Men and women that is not like now the Bible says we're not neither married We won't marry or be given in marriage in the new heaven.
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So The the gender distinctions that exist now, I don't know Past judgment, but I know that at judgment we are Who we are so I can't see us But I but I don't think that that necessarily is going to play a part unless we have in some way Violated who we are.
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So let's say a person has denied their their what God made them Okay.
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Now another hand I see that.
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Okay Well, we're going to talk about later or not whether or not a woman can be a deacon I think you might say an elder.
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Okay, I think that Again this I Believe that a woman in the pulpit is outside of the will of God and They're going yeah, and that I mean that who said who was that? Yeah, that should not surprise you, huh? Okay.
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Yeah, I believe there's fully outside the will of God how that's going to look on Judgment Day How that's going to play out on Judgment Day.
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I don't know but but I certainly don't think that's where they should be Yes, sir Sure, but what does it mean when it says God is not a respecter of persons But what does it mean When I ask you what it means you can't just repeat what it says you got to tell me what it means Okay The Bible says God is not a respecter of persons Which means God does not choose based on anything that is in us God chooses according to his own Counsel and will so God doesn't choose you because you're pretty and you he didn't choose because you're ugly.
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No offense You're not but I'm saying God doesn't God doesn't choose like we do the phrase God is not a respecter of persons doesn't mean God doesn't make choices It simply means God doesn't make choices based upon our as it says with Jacob and Esau I chose them before they were born to demonstrate the purpose of election That there was not before it was before they had done anything good or evil That my purpose of an election might stand see when we make choices we make choices based upon biases.
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You're black.
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You're white You're ugly.
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You're not, you know, whatever.
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I didn't point at anybody But you know, we make choices all the time based on those things, but that's not the way God chooses So that's that's a very important when when people say God is not a respecter of person Sometimes that people think that means God doesn't choose people, but that's not the case It just it means God doesn't choose the way we do God is not a respecter God's not going to choose the president because he's the president or choose somebody because they're rich or choose somebody because of whatever God chooses according to his own will Yeah, it's certainly not going to somebody because they're gendered.
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Absolutely Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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Yep and good connection.
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Absolutely All right So moving on to the next thing because now that we've defined the two positions I want to I want to make a something very clear often the question of complementarian versus egalitarian is Reduced to this simple question.
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Can a woman be an elder or a pastor? We've already sort of thrown that out But there is more to it than that if the question of tonight Was can a woman be a pastor? I would just say no Let's go home early.
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I go down to McDonald's and have a you know, have a Big Mac Because we'd be we'd be done too quickly That's not the only answer that we're seeking to give tonight what we are seeking to answer with the question of complementarianism versus egalitarianism is the question of why is there a distinction and What does the distinction? Apply to because it's not just to the pastor and the elder of the church But as I said, it has application throughout the church within the home and I would say even in the greater societal role, so Moving on complementarianism is about recognizing the concept of headship the Greek word for the head is the word kephalé and in its literal sense It means a physical head when somebody got their head cut off when they were decapitated that were there their kephalé was removed It was the word used in capital punishment Kephalé to be to have your head removed in its figurative sense it means The the word means master or Lord if like if you say Jesus is the head of the church.
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He's the master He's the Lord of the church, right? So it so in a physical sense its head and it's literal and it's rather in its literal sense its head and its figurative sense its master or Lord and This begins again with recognizing Christ is the head of the church, but it also Recognizes Adam as the head of the human race Adam had a very specific role in Humanity and it wasn't just that he was the father of us all because he is the father of us all he is the Ancestor of every man and woman But he was also the head Not just the source which we're going to talk about in a minute because head can mean source, but he was also the head in responsibility We call this federal headship.
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You guys have heard me talk about federal headship before what is federal mean? No, no federal means representative think about our government, right? We we vote for people to represent us in the government.
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That's that's what we call it Well, well, but that's what we're supposed to do, right? We're supposed to vote so that our senators will go and represent our opinions and our desires Before Congress and before the Senate and all those things our congressmen our senators that's the form of federal or representative government Adam when he Was acting as the first human being he was not just acting on his own but he was acting as the head the the Representative of all of us and I and I've heard people say well, I didn't vote for Adam.
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Well, God didn't ask you to God doesn't need your vote and he doesn't require your vote God chose the absolute best representative for humanity and you said but he messed up.
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Yeah Well, tell me you wouldn't have and there's the why he's your best representative as he represents us perfectly he's the one God chose and Headship in that sense is not just about authority, but it is about responsibility when Adam sinned he sinned on behalf of all of his children he Represented us in his failure and therefore complementarianism Sees the difference between Adam by the way, Adam and Eve both sinned.
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In fact Eve sinned first By taking of the fruit of the tree eating and then giving to her husband one might even claim It was her fault.
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That's certainly what Adam claimed Huh? Well, we're gonna that's right and we're gonna get there but the point is one could make the argument at least Tacitly that she's more she bears more responsibility because she was the one who was deceived or whatever But the text never does that if you go through the biblical text, what does it always say Adam? We send in Adam Adam was the representative Adam was the head Adam was the one with the responsibility That's right, he did what the first Adam couldn't do so the point in all this is complementarianism is based not just on a Whether or not somebody's a pastor, it's based on an understanding of the role of man and woman as it was in the created order God gave Adam a specific role in the created order That was different than Eve and that role has not been abrogated has not been has not been Shifted or changed the role of the man as head continues That one statement would get me disinvited from many a barbecue and and certainly with Then I get to stay home and I'm happy Yeah I like to but the but you know that one statement that God placed into the man a role of Authority and responsibility that he did not place in the woman is very very unpopular But is also very biblical At least from my opinion again, that's the compliment complementarianism is about recognizing headship recognizing both authority and responsibility Now, let's look at egalitarianism Egalitarianism does not deny that the word headship is there I mean because I mean doesn't they can't deny the scripture which says Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church, you know And that he's the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church The Bible clearly says these things you use that language, but they say but but but headship according to the egalitarians does not mean authority But simply means the source of something like you say the head of a of a river is the source of that You know like a spring is at the head of the river and that gives the source and Adam was the head of the human Race, therefore he was the source of the human race and so they interpret headship not in view of authority and responsibility, but they interpret it in view of simply being the source of something and it removes in many ways the idea of authority and Responsibility this position advocates for the full inclusion of women in church leadership and for mutual Mutuality in marriage I spent a little time in my preparation for this class Reading some of the Arguments for this position and one of the thing I kept coming across was the idea of co-leadership in marriage That there is no authority exercised by the man in the marriage But that the man and woman are co-leaders in the marriage and they're not neither one nor the other has any Affectual authority they call that co-leadership the Junia project is a group which seeks to promote this understanding interpreting Roman 1607 as a woman Apostle there's a woman there named Junia and they interpret her to be a female Apostle and they even have if you go to the website the Junia project they even have a Place that you can go on the website to find an egalitarian church in your area so you can put in your zip code put in your your City, and you can find an egalitarian church in your area Well, that's there because that's what they're about.
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That's the that's what they're I didn't look I I was but I did do this.
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I did get a quote from them.
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This is a rather long quote I know you won't be able to read it probably from where you are, but again, you'll get the notes Everybody got the notes last week, right? And they're on the website too If you don't get them you can always go to sgfcjax.org slash Academy and the notes are there if you need them This is what the Junia project says listen closely to this again.
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I am NOT putting words in their mouth This is literally just cut and paste from their website throughout church history The quote Christ as head of the church quote minute metaphor has been misinterpreted Misunderstood and misapplied as we look to Jesus as our model for headship Do we see Jesus ever having final say in making decisions? I? just had to stop because I'm you know I Just imagine being in a class I've been in many classes where I was where you are sitting in class and If I if I were in a class and there were a person standing where I'm standing and they said this I'm quoting someone else, but if they said that I would just be Yeah, I mean I would break my own arm Throwing my hand up and say of course there are times when Jesus Makes an authoritative proclamation based on himself being the head We'll get to those in a minute, but just the just the question of was there ever a time Do we see Jesus having final say in making decisions? all the time so The answer that yes But but going on it says does Jesus ever pull out a trump card and impose his will or make people comply Now that is a bit of a different question you could debate back and forth whether Jesus ever forced anyone to comply In in that regard, but he did say to his Apostles if you love me you'll You'll keep my commandments to do what I tell you to do so there is a certain sense in which he said I'm the head but moving on For example does Jesus ever impose his desire for a person to avoid sin repent pray serve at church tithe or live in a certain way Yeah, he's going to do that at judgment, and he's going to really impose his will hard Huh? Yeah, exactly he imposed his will I mean he was whapping him with a whip and throwing their tables over And it got on their mind meaning that your sins are forgiven is the primary example of that.
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Yeah, he has authority and he's making that So this is the last sentence on the board for that reason we do not agree that marriage Excuse me We do not agree with marriage views where the husband has final say in making decisions or figuratively speaking has a male Gender trump card end quote so basically what they've done is they've neutered Christ I I Mean haven't they and they've said Christ does not exercise any sense of authority and therefore no man Should ever exercise any sense of authority because Christ was not really Exercising any authority in his ministry therefore no man should exercise authority.
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It's Again, I'm trying to be fair But golly I mean Yeah, and here's the thing what was the disciples favorite Title for Jesus Lord Lord Which means you in charge you to Lord I mean Yeah, Lord exactly So my question then to respond to the Junia website did Jesus ever make commands as Lord head of the church Yeah, like all the time, but that's as my answer.
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He did it all the time He literally said if you love me you keep my commandments He commanded people to repent to follow him go and sin no more These are these are in the imperative by the way if you're just for linguistics There's imperative and indicative indicative is what is imperative is what should be or what must be so if I say you're sitting there That's an indicative, but if I say you sit down That's an imperative and I'm picking on you The point is there's a difference and Christ certainly told people to do things and it wasn't optional It wasn't do this.
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Maybe it was do this and live Meaning if you don't do it You're gonna forfeit eternal life.
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I mean this is this is it so Just the whole concept that they're trying to get to to me just comes across as Very superficial very unwilling to be honest with the text and finding things that are just not there Complementarianism affirms the role of male headship within the church and family Christ is the ultimate head of the church and the home Men in the role of elders function as shepherds or overseers in the local church Men in the role of fathers and husbands function as shepherds or overseers in the home and while women should never be mistreated or discounted in either place They do not equally share in Authority or responsibility that's the difference between complementarianism and egalitarianism is While they would never be mistreated.
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They do not share in the same positions of authority or responsibility Now one of the things that I have come in to Contact with over the years because I've held this position for a long time.
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I've held this position to the point of literal People shouting at me because of this this is not I'm not exaggerating.
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I mean people just so upset about the teaching on this position Got emails got a very very ugly letter Years ago about it handwritten letter That I was an awful person and that I had done damage to women and things like that.
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So so it's very sexist You know hater of women all these things which are which completely unfair untrue But but these are so people take this seriously but but I do want to address the what-ifs because this is a question that often comes up even in the mind of people who take a Complementary in position people will have the the what-if Scenario and here's some of the what-ifs.
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What if the man is an unbeliever? What if the man is an unfit leader? What if the man? Abandons his duty to lead.
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These are three very common questions but as you notice in the in the bottom I put there these tend to apply in the home more than the church and they Demonstrated why having a relationship with the local church is so vital because None of those three apply in the church because if a man's an unbeliever, he's not gonna be an elder If a man's an unfit leader, he's not going to remain an elder and if he's abandoning his duty He's not going to remain an elder So none of these really apply within the church But I hear these all the time in the home and again as I said this applies more than just to the church This is when the home and the question.
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Well, what if my husband is an unbeliever? What does Peter say to the women who are married to unbelievers? I Can't I'm sorry go ahead you Love them and to be a godly example to them right and but not to usurp their authority To submit and to humbly submit to them now.
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Here's the question people say well What if he's telling me to do something sinful? Well, the same rules apply as would apply to the government We're told to submit to the government, but the government commands us to do something that's sinful Then we don't have to comply and so if a woman came to me she says my husband is wanting me to You know do something that is violating my Christian conscience I would say in that sense you lovingly submit in every area, but not that one, you know And and and and and that's the same way if a person came to the government's telling me I can't come to church Well, you come to church and take the consequences, but you come to church You know, that's in the same thing would apply if a man was telling his wife not to come to church But there is a little nuance there if if I would say this if a woman came to me She said my husband doesn't want me to come to church There may be a conversation About what's the situation and what's going on and there may be a time where she submits to that for a season Out of love and respect for him, but not perpetually Right, so so there but that's it.
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Yeah, I'm just trying to be fair.
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There would be a conversation It wouldn't be you can't perpetually forsake the assembly, but maybe you come on Wednesday nights Maybe you maybe he wants you to be with him on Sunday morning, whatever Let's figure out a way to make this work because we don't want it to end in divorce All right.
34:13
That's the goal is that is we don't want this thing to divorce if it doesn't have to so can we so as a pastor, I've honestly I've dealt with many of these things and I've a lot of times we've had members here whose wives or husbands weren't believers and I have to Help them try to stay in their marriage not just abandon their fidelity to their marriage Even though their husband or wife isn't a believer So there's things that we have to discuss and work that out.
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But if he said no, you can't worship Jesus.
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Yeah.
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Well You can't tell me not to do that because Christ is the head over you You're the head in the home, but he's the head over the world.
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Right? So so there is so if the man is an unbeliever You know, I'm Right away the the first thing is is that it wouldn't automatically be that you would disrespect him Right.
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He still has a position in the home What if he's an unfit leader this one is a little trickier because there are times when there might be a man who is dangerous maybe he's a drunkard or a swindler or a An addict of some kind and and there's some danger and being under his authority Or maybe he's mentally unfit and you have to deal with that So there are times where you have to this is why I said this at the end This demonstrates why having a relationship of the local church is vital Because if a woman is married to a man who's unfit or an unbeliever or it abandons his duty the church's Responsibility is to come around her and love her in her condition And to be that for her which she doesn't have at home That makes sense Right.
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He's not going to pray with her.
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Well, then we pray with her.
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He's not going to lead her in devotions Well, we women in the church gather with her and help her and help her to grow Right.
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This is all what the church is supposed to do so But it doesn't mean that he doesn't have a position Here's the thing and it goes back to what you talked about Ross one day.
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He's going to be judged One day he's going to face God I'll tell you guys if you're married if you have a wife one day you are going to face God and one of the things you're going to give to God is an account for how you Husbanded your bride the word husband made to care for Husbandman or somebody who cares for that person who takes care of them, right? And and you're going to be responsible for that So yes, go ahead During the marriage Yeah, yeah, I would I don't marry believers to unbelievers in fact, I almost I've got a form that I give For people who want to be married and it's got all the rules that for me to participate These are the things that people have to be willing to do one if you're living together You got to stop if I'm gonna participate If you're living in sin, you got to repent You know For me to participate in this thing and if one of you is a believer and one's not then I'm not going to participate Because I can't affirm that but I have done weddings for two unbelievers Because they're in the same spiritual condition And I use it as an opportunity to share the gospel with them and share the gospel with everybody who's at the wedding But yeah Generally, what we see is two unbelievers and then one of them gets saved you guys ever see the the movie about Lee Strobel Remember the whole movie is predicated on the fact that his wife got saved and he wanted to talk her out of it and he spent all that time trying to talk about and she Loved him and remained in the home and and through it all prayed for him and with the church prayed for him and God brought him To faith doesn't always happen that way.
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Sometimes somebody comes to faith and the other person bolts I've seen that happen seeing the person come to faith they love Jesus and the other person just They're gone and that's what the local church is the local church to be there for that person love that person encourage that person in there and they're now single and You know potentially Needy position because maybe now they're without part of their income or whatever You know all those things So when people say well, what if this what if that I say, you know There's there there's a lot of bad situations and there's a lot of nuances and conversations that we would have But it doesn't violate the principle of male headship doesn't violate the principles of submission in the home We just have to look at each situation as well What what does this look like in this home? And I will say this the way what look what it looks like in my home may look different than in somebody else's home You know and what I mean by that is My wife and I have a wonderful relationship.
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There's no issues I can honestly say I have no issues with her as far as Submission and respect and love and she's very supportive of me and I try to be a good shepherd to her And and it's probably the greatest joy of my life is my wife I was very blessed to to be given the wife that I was given But I know other homes where it's a little different and they don't do things exactly like we do but as long as there's no violation of disrespect and And they may they may just they may have a different dynamic in their relationship But it's about respect and and love and and submission and service and as long as those things are happening Then they don't have their house to have a little at my house You know and and so there are times where somebody well, well, they're not doing it the way I do it Well, you're not the standard Jesus is and if he's being the head of his house as Christ has called him to be and she's submitting to him if it doesn't look Like it does in your house.
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That doesn't mean they're wrong It just means it doesn't look like you and you're not the standard anyway So I mean I've had to tell people that because I've had people say well, I don't like the way they do things Well, you're not paying their bills Are they sinning? Can you name a sin? I've we've said this to people.
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I say we the other elders.
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Can you name a sin? Well, no, I just don't like the way they're doing it.
40:21
Well, if you can't name a sin Then it at best you're dealing with a Romans 14 situation Where they're dealing doing something different than you but it's not necessarily sinful, you know now she Disrespecting him and I have I remember sitting at dinner one time with his family and the wife was so miserably Disrespectful to her husband just awful and I remember going home and my wife just her chin was just down Just I can't believe somebody would treat her husband that way I said I can't either and I've seen it so those things do happen in that situation sometimes does need to be addressed and when we get to Conflict management and all that which is class seven So I'm really looking forward to that class talking about conflict management because part of that's that how would you address that if you saw? in your church a husband and wife and the wife was being Overly disrespectful to her husband or if the husband was being overly heavy-handed with his wife How would you address it? Would you would it be your responsibility? I think so.
41:20
Yeah, absolutely.
41:21
So so so this is part of like I said class seven We're going to get into what that looks like but it's It doesn't violate the principle.
41:29
We have to fall back to the principle of of Headship.
41:33
Okay.
41:33
Now I said we were going to examine relevant passages and that's what we're going to do for the next few minutes The first relevant passage is Ephesians 5.
41:41
So if you want to take out your Bible Figure you you probably figured we'd get here We're going to look at 522 to 24.
41:53
I and I I know That there's more than just this but we just don't have time to look at more than just this.
42:00
This is the relevant passage There's there's a whole chapter That we could look at and we could follow it through and look at Paul's arguments and look at the context of Paul's arguments But For simplicity sake and time's sake.
42:14
We're just going to look at a few verses and The first one is Ephesians 522 wives Submit to your own husbands.
42:25
I always like to point out.
42:26
It doesn't say submit to somebody else's husband.
42:29
I Mean it doesn't say submit to your husband and that's that The point I'm making is some people take male headship as male authority and everything If a man tells my wife to do something she ain't gonna listen to him at all.
42:43
I Mean she has no responsibility now if it's if there's a if there's something going on the church and a man's got a position of leadership and she's and she Has submitted to doing whatever they've asked her to do I'm not saying she's going to be disrespectful or something.
42:54
But my point is if a man says go make me a sandwich Yeah, I mean it submit to your own husband and that's and so just pointing that out you get it You know I'm saying right? It's it's she's she has a responsibility in the home to him as to the Lord and Here's the thing that that bothers a lot of people because they say well that does that mean she's making the man Jesus.
43:20
No What she is doing though is she is submitting to him because of her submission to Christ The the submission that she is it's in a similar way to my submission to the authority of the government Right, I talked about this on my podcast this week You didn't listen to it that the government is getting more and more willing to tell us to do things that are ungodly We don't have to do things that are ungodly.
43:46
But if the government commands me to do something that is righteous such as You know don't murder.
43:53
Well, that's one of God's commands so I'm not going to do that because God has commanded me not to but the government has affirmed that and has also told me they're going to punish me if I do Do it right so I have to consider that and so I'm going to submit to them because the Lord has commanded me to submit and And I'm submitting to them as to the Lord in the same way the wife submits her husband as Lord.
44:14
Yes, sir the I Really encourage you to listen to the podcast if you haven't because I had two gentlemen on with me this week and we discussed for a whole hour the concept of Righteous and unrighteous government and righteous and unrighteous commands and I Don't really want to get into it in class But that is something that is worthy of address Because the question would fall to the issue of do I have the right and responsibility to protect my family? so that Yeah, coffee with a conversation with the Calvinist.
44:56
It was it published yesterday.
44:59
So There are certain there's there's there was a reason why that the American Revolution was supported by the ministers particularly Presbyterian ministers They were called the Black Robe Regiment, and they supported the American Revolution because the the I think was John Calvin if I remember correctly who said that Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God So there's something to consider there, yes Well, that was what we talked about on the show That was actually the reason for the show was whether or not we should submit to vaccinations as a mandate from the government So if you want to listen to it, please Would encourage you to but moving on verse 23 for the husband is The head Keflai right of the wife Even as Christ is the head of the church notice that the Apostle Paul is making a parallel Between the relationship of the husband and the wife in the relationship of Christ in the church And it says he's the head of the church his body and is himself its Savior now as the church Submits to Christ so the wife should submit and everything to her husband So so we have two times in this passage We have two uses of the word Keflai to use of the word head and two uses the word submit both of them is Equating the relationship of the husband and wife to the relationship of Christ in the church Christ is responsible to be the head of the church or Christ is ahead of the church and the church is responsible is to submit to him the husband's head of wife and the wife is Responsible to submit so so those who would say that head simply means source This passage does not allow for that as an interpretation.
46:55
I don't believe I don't believe this passage would allow for the egalitarian Interpretation because not only do words have meaning and they do Keflai So head can mean source as I said head of a river head of a whatever but What we have with words is not just Definitions, but we have what is called a semantic domain And that means how words are used within Context and the context determines what a word means I said you are bad You don't know exactly what I mean Well, but if I just looked at you and said you are bad Now I have a smile on my face.
47:39
So, you know, I'm not insulting you but if I said it in the context of You were born a son of Adam.
47:48
You are a wretched sinner.
47:49
You are bad Then you know because I added a context, but if I said man, I've seen you scrap and you are bad That's a different context right in that sense it means you're good a good fighter or a good scrapper You're bad to the bone, you know that and so the same word used in two different ways based upon the context so head and Submission are being Paul is smart Of course, he's writing under the power of the Holy Spirit, but he's giving us the context He says just as Christ is the head of the church husband is head of the wife Just as the church submits to Christ the wife is to submit to her.
48:26
He gives the example He gives the context in the in the passage Yeah, can't there's no other way in my opinion to interpret it but let's move on to the next one and that is the the coup de gras the verse of verses when it comes to this Particular passage and that is 1st.
48:44
Timothy 2 1st.
48:46
Timothy 2 is the passage that so many people hate because it is well It is so clear So many people do not even attempt to try to interpret it differently.
49:00
They just simply discount it as being ancient archaic and No longer applicable They would say this passage is archaic.
49:10
It comes from a different time and it's no longer applicable.
49:13
I've heard that a lot In fact, that's usually where people go when they start getting nailed to the wall because they start giving all kinds of awkward Reinterpretations and you say no, this is what it means.
49:24
This is what it says in a minute.
49:25
We're gonna look at the Greek I'll show you exactly what it says But but before we get there the point is what it says is is simple enough up went back too far.
49:33
Let me go back Okay Let a woman learn quietly With all submissiveness I And by the way that in and of itself is a is a huge step forward for women at this time Because the idea that women are to learn and be part of the learners be what is a learner the disciple They're part of the the disciples of Christ, which are learners.
49:58
That was a big step that that was even allowed Let a woman learn but to do so quietly with all submissiveness and then verse 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man Rather she is to remain Quiet now When it says some people some people focus in on the the personal pronoun at the beginning of verse 12 They say I and they say Paul is giving his personal opinion.
50:28
He's not speaking for God He is giving his own opinion and his opinion was women are not to have authority over men or to teach them But that doesn't mean that that applies to everyone That was just Paul's opinion and we don't have to put any more stock in Paul's opinion than anyone else And there's a Greek word for that.
50:44
What is it? baloney, it's absolute baloney because There's just no there's just no way to to make that argument because Paul gives many positive Commands in Scripture based upon his authority as an apostle.
51:03
That's we're gonna get there first Corinthians 14.
51:05
Yep Yeah, all scriptures breathe out by God this is Scripture therefore this is breathe out by God absolutely and the other thing too that is important about that whole I do not permit is We do recognize Paul having a position of authority within the church we call it apostolic authority Yeah, he's planning churches he's writing the majority of the New Testament books Yeah, he was an app he was a capital a apostle absolutely So here's what I wanted to show you though and the reason why I brought the original language in and we're not going to go Too much into it, but I wanted to show you this in the in the Greek In verse 12, it's not verse 11 and 12.
51:49
It's just a verse verse 12 there.
51:52
It shouldn't say 11 and 12 Didascane day gonna kick OOP Well, I can't barely let me look down epitrapo that phrase is in a sense by itself and what it says is Here you say the word teach woman not command, but what it what it says in in its English translation is I I do not allow or I command that a woman not teach That's it then it says or that's a day there the second line or Exercise authority that's that word Authentic there and and Ross is man So the point that I'm making is this first sentence is actually independent of the second sentence.
52:47
So This passage I believe if read and understood it Doesn't just say woman is not to teach men.
52:56
It's women are not to teach in the church because the actual sentence is women are not to teach or Exercise authority over man and and they are saying the man applies to both.
53:07
I don't think so I don't think that a woman is supposed to teach in the church now Somebody says wait a minute.
53:11
Can a woman teach other women Titus allows for that Titus talks about older women teaching younger women but the role of standing up and authoritatively Proclaiming teaching within the church is not a position that women are supposed to I I believe based upon this this text Because again, and it follows up with the last clause that they are to remain quiet that they are to remain quiet So because here's the thing that I have heard people say well what if a man gives the woman the authority I've heard people say that they say well, here's pastorette whatever She's pastorette because the elders have made her they've given her that authority.
53:55
Therefore.
53:55
She has the authority to stand up and teach That's what I think this passage would but I think that would be a violation of this passage because by saying we're basically We're basically usurping God's Authority and saying okay be okay for her to do that Yeah Yeah So now we move to the first Corinthians passage.
54:21
This one's a little longer I'll read it to you It says for God is not a God of confusion But of peace as in all the churches of the Saints the woman women rather should keep silent That is the same thing.
54:32
It says in The Timothy passage in the churches for they are not permitted to speak but should be in submission as The law also says if there's anything they desire to learn let them ask their husbands at home For it is shameful shameful for a woman to speak in church Now this particular passage again is it is argued against fought against and here's the here's the primary argument They will say there were women in Corinth who were making a spectacle of themselves.
55:00
And that's why Paul wrote this That may be But it but one it doesn't say that but to the context is not that Paul is not writing about women making a spectacle of himself in fact the context of first Corinthians 14 is Gifts but it's prophecy in tongues.
55:24
That's the two gifts that's in context and Paul is referring to speaking with authority Because prophecy in tongues were two ways that people spoke in the first century with authority in the church so when a person spoke with authority they were speaking to the church as The mouthpiece of God in that moment and Paul says this is not something that women are to do in the church Somebody says well doesn't apply to today.
55:52
I don't know why it would it has applied for 1,800 years It's applied, you know only in the last 200 years.
56:00
So we see this, you know shift But Somebody says well, does that mean women can't talk in the hallway? Does that mean women can't say man? Does that mean no because it's not talking about that.
56:12
It's talking about speaking Proclamations with authority before the people of God it's in the sense the same context as 2nd Timothy or 1st Timothy Which is referring to a position of authority and teaching This The chancel you guys know what I mean when I say that right? It's not a stage Ross.
56:39
Sorry.
56:41
I Joke, but now the chancel is the platform the pulpit and it sits on the chancel and the chancel is the place where God's Word is proclaimed the place from which God's Word is proclaimed and If a woman stands on the chancel and and is is giving Authoritative words to the people of God in whatever context I would say that that would be inappropriate based on this But that doesn't mean again that in the seats They can't have a conversation below another when people say well, she's got to be silent the church He's supposed to wear a burka cover her mouth, but duct tape whatever, you know, all kinds of crazy stuff I mean, it's not talking about that well, I Believe so I yeah, I would say so but again I'm not gonna I'm not going to hold the standard that I believe to every person if another church did it a little differently and They said well, we don't understand it that way we could disagree agreeably on that But I I we don't have women read scripture here.
57:49
We don't have them stand up and read scripture here But we do have women that help sing, but I'm always the leader in that we have women voices that sing But it's always I'm always the one out in front either me or when I'm not here Jerry And we make a point that the women don't lead even in the singing the men do and the women accompany them Yes Well that Yeah But they but but if you if you go back to that scenario in Acts with Apollos Apollos is the one who's teaching and when they hear that he is teaching something that is not in accord with the truth They take him away Privately.
58:48
She does not stand in the pulpit and tell him he's wrong She doesn't stand up there and proc proclaim that she they take him away privately what? No, did you did you disagree or? But privately is different than publicly I would I would I would I Would discourage that but No, no, no What I'm saying is you understand what I'm saying with Priscilla and Aquila that they are they took him aside Privately and that conversation whoever was the forefront of the conversation it was done privately It was not done in the context of proclaiming to the people of God.
59:37
Yeah, that's that's key Okay Yes Deborah's often brought up Deborah is one example where we see a woman leading God's people But at the same time certainly was not the norm Exactly exactly the the position there is if you go into the text and read through the text It's it's it's certainly not I don't think it's in any way a defense for female pastors or anything like that The the ones I usually hear ones like Lydia because Lydia was a woman of wealth She was obviously a woman of prominence in the community She that her house was used for as the church and people say well sure if it was her house She she had to have some authority and I say based on what based on Yeah, yeah so Are there women who had very important positions? Yes, and in one of the arguments often here people will say well It was women who first told the disciples about Jesus rising from the dead.
01:01:06
Therefore they were the first evangelists and I say Okay, slow down.
01:01:10
Let's just I mean It's always it's always What I would call anecdotal rather than clearly exegetical You know here we had the the daughters of Philip.
01:01:29
They were prophetesses well, the Bible says that God is going to pour out his spirit on men and women Absolutely, but the exercise of authority Headship again going back to complementarianism headship did Phillips daughters according to any passage of Scripture exercise any authority in the church Not according to Scripture you can't find it anywhere even Priscilla Nicola going back.
01:01:52
Was there any position that Priscilla Demonstrated herself as a co-elder or anything.
01:01:57
No, we could look at even Lydia Again, we see these things.
01:02:05
We said well she had to have been no It's just like the Junia thing if you read the passage about Junia They make a big deal about the fact that she was arrested if you go to Roman 16 She was she was she suffered for her faith and they said she she was an apostle on the same Level as Paul.
01:02:21
That's the argument.
01:02:22
They make that she was on the same level as Paul because she suffered And I say Again you are That's not just a slight leap.
01:02:33
That is a you you have Yeah.
01:02:36
Yeah, you have you have taken a ginormous step So John MacArthur makes it pretty clear at least in his position not everybody loves Johnny Mac But this is what he says he says women pastors and women preachers are the most obvious evidence of churches rebelling against the Bible and Somebody says I don't like that.
01:02:55
Well, let me ask you this When was the last time you saw a church where there was a FEMA and I might get an email about this ladies and gentlemen who are listening via the Internet I can read your emails and that's okay, but I'm still going to say this.
01:03:14
I Don't know of any church Where a woman is in a position of pastor where they are not preaching something that is not in accord with Scripture and I tell you when I see women preach and I listen to them preach.
01:03:26
I'm almost always hearing something that is very off in their doctrine and It's just it just is and That's why you know, Johnny Mac here He says women pastors and women preachers are the most obvious evidence of churches rebelling against the Bible.
01:03:47
That's the first step what if this doesn't apply first Timothy 2 and first Corinthians 14 and all the rest of the passages about headship if that doesn't apply then what else what just just Just keep going And it's just going to keep the the dominoes fall Some of the most dangerous false teachers in the United States today are women pastors Joyce Meyer Paula Well, I do know that there are some women who when they write books they don't use their first name a Good example of that is New Age Bible versions, which was written by Gail Ripplinger It was again opposing new newer Bible versions, but her book was it was New Age Bible versions by GA Ripplinger She didn't put Gail because she didn't want anybody know she was a woman So that's just another bit that we see that sometime Yeah, you know that was obviously purposeful.
01:04:47
Yeah So let's finish up with this last thought there there is the one passage it's almost always quoted I want to address it before we take our break Galatians chapter 3 this is the passage that almost everybody uses So we might need to at least respond for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ There is neither Jew nor Greek.
01:05:08
There is neither slave nor free There is neither male or no male and female for you are all one in Christ Jesus for my response Please open your book to page 60 if you have your book if you don't it's up here, but this Here's my here's my response to that argument because I had to deal with that I told you about the female elder that was once here and I had to respond to her on that passage She said there is no male or female she would take her There is no male or female so this was my response Well, I'm going to read it as it's written The argument goes like this a woman is creating God's image She is also in Christ so her gender should not be an issue when it comes to authority But this argument is fallacious from its very inception first of all the person is comparing apples to oranges Spiritual equality and positional authority do not even begin to be in the same category This is tantamount to saying that if I have a saved or excuse me if if you have a saved parent and a saved child That there can be no authoritative Relationship anymore because the two are equal in Christ.
01:06:16
What kind of homes would we see if that were the case? That's what I said to the lady.
01:06:20
I remember specifically.
01:06:21
I said so what you're telling me is that if my son Becomes a believer that I no longer have any positional authority over him Because you're telling me that because that there is because There is no male or female that that means there can't be any positional authority Here's the thing even though it says there's no slave nor free there were still slaves and free people because Onesimus was sent back to Philemon and Philemon was still his Master and and Onesimus was still his slave Even though There's neither slave nor free.
01:07:01
This is speaking of positional I'm sorry spiritual equality not positional authority you take this into your job next week You got a Christian boss.
01:07:12
You say listen here Christian boss.
01:07:14
I'm a Christian man.
01:07:15
You have no authority over me You will not work there long Take this into your home if you're still living with mom and dad Which none of you are but I tell teenagers take that into your home and make that argument.
01:07:25
I'm in Christ Therefore daddy you have no authority over me.
01:07:29
Yeah, I won't last Yeah, and see again.
01:07:37
You can push it all the way out of that.
01:07:39
Let's take our quick break that that ends this session Let's take our quick break.