June 23, 2009

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on a

Tuesday morning If I sound a little different is because we are doing this dividing line via Skype I just realized

I forgot to blog that my apologies. I Said on Thursday, well,

I'll let you know on the blog one way or the other but well, anyways, it's our regular time 11 o 'clock mountain standard time which out here with the two o 'clock two o 'clock in the afternoon and I am in Pompton Plains, New Jersey Which I'm really not sure where it is.

I am just so very thankful on this trip for that little Garmin GPS that someone was kind enough to purchase for me.

It has gotten me around quite well Driving in New Jersey is probably the same just greatest challenge to a

GPS unit In fact, I think a couple of times. I have detected a small amount of annoyance on the part of the voice

Yes unit when it tells me to turn right and I can't or left and I can't Because you never know coming up to any corner in New Jersey whether you're going to be able to turn right or left

And I have to go the opposite direction or a different direction and it goes Recalculating and I think a couple of times if I listen real closely under its breath

It's whispered get out of New Jersey one. I think that happened once but I could be wrong about that.

But anyway, we've Had a great time here in New Jersey, I Mentioned on my blog that I had the opportunity on Saturday.

I flew out on Friday on Saturday some of the brethren from Trinity Fellowship Church down in Tom's River took me up to print and Even though it was raining.

So all my pictures are just of really wet gravestone things we I saw the graves of Jonathan Edwards and Sarah Edwards and the

Charles Hodge and Aaron Burr and The one that a lot of folks have been there for some reason miss and it really wasn't that far away was

BB Warfield and his wife and that was one I really wanted to to be able to see and I and the brethren were talking about the fact that it's difficult to determine where the

The real Seminary and cemetery are today in Princeton It would seem that you could learn far more in the physical cemetery than you could in the seminary anymore and so which one is the

The real cemetery and which one is the real seminary, but as it may then on Saturday well

Saturday evening, then I gave my New Testament presentation at the

Trinity Fellowship Church and then Had a really good group there and then

Sunday morning I think I've already linked to the audio of the sermon on Ephesians 1 and then

Sunday evening I haven't checked today whether the folks at Trinity Baptist have put that audio up as yet From John from John 8, but that was

I'm sorry. I Thought I heard something there but then see, there's there's maybe that was my

GPS talking to me saying yes get out of there, but The folks at Trinity Baptist had a great time there with all the brethren who gathered together a couple other churches actually canceled their

Sunday evening services and Joined with us there and then the sovereignty of God conference began this

Yesterday and I was the opening speaker. There was some real Pressure on me at that point because this is a conference that began that took place initially 70 years ago and The first opening statement the first opening presentation was made by dr.

John Murray and I had the same subject a biblical survey of the sovereignty of God's The sovereignty of God in the

Bible and so I I worked hard last night and Then we had a

Q &A session afterwards, which I thought was going to be a group of us answering questions But actually it was just another 45 minute quizzing of me so I when

I got back to my hotel room last evening, I was Pretty tired because the the

Sunday morning sermon sermon was an hour and 10 minutes Sunday evening sermon was an hour that ended up being hour and 45 minutes, so I have preached far more than I'm accustomed to preaching over just a short period of time over the past few days, but I'm not preaching today.

The conference actually is going on right now I would like to have been there, but there was just some things I had to get taken care of Including that pesky front tire on my rental car which

I eventually just went out there did what you had to do and They performed a full inspection and lo and behold look at the size of that screw right there in the tread of the tires, so I found a place and got that fixed and now

I can Travel to Long Island without worrying about that thing coming out and all of a sudden we have we have major problems.

So Anyhow, so Before we go back to the Norm Geisler sermon, which thanks to rich back there in the studio

I have on my my MacBook Pro here so we can continue to listen to that. I was directed to a

Video on YouTube today and Well When I first started listening to it,

I tried to guess the young man's age I I guessed Teenager at the most 20 then

I looked at his YouTube channel and it turned out to be his name is David and he's 18 years of age

I left a message a Comment on the video inviting him to call

Today With young David I just picked up or just upload.

I'm sorry a video response to David To my website to the

YouTube channel and Maybe during the break. I'll be able to check and make sure that For some reason my system defaults to private rather than public when it uploads stuff.

I'm not sure how that works. But anyway, I'll Hopefully have that up fairly quickly so people can see it and can see

David's video as well, but he is attempting to respond to the

Posting of my Romans 9 exegesis by Lane Chaplin and It was a troubling video to watch on some levels

You can't really see it as much well can't hear it as I play it over the dividing line, but if you if you

Look at the video itself. It is It's troubling and the reason

I say it's troubling is here. You have an 18 year old young man He is a King James only us tonight.

I'm sorry I know that there are humble King James only us, but I have probably had more interaction with King James only individuals than anybody else that I know and King James only ism does not engender humility on The part of the people who practice it and here you have an 18 year old high school graduate

I would assume and He mockingly

Dismisses me. I am more than twice his age. Obviously, I could be his father and whether you like my

Educational credentials or not. I have taught Greek and Hebrew of in a recognized seminary for A Demonstrate I believe some facility in those languages and yet here you have an 18 year old who can

In essence mock me on the basis of his own ignorance the Greek language as if English and Greek are the same things now

It's been pointed out by many. He made numerous errors In his presentation.

He doesn't seem no difference between tense and voice things like this, but Really it was the attitude that was so sad because it it's just so very clear.

He's not willing to listen and hear to what I am what I'm saying and that's a

Real problem, I think so. I want to play just the section where he attempts to respond to some comments

I made comments. I've made many times where when people are

Looking at specifically Romans 8 and the golden chain of redemption When they see that phrase, in fact, we just covered this in in Geisler sermon

Isn't it ironic then 18 year old goes and tries to go into more depth in error, but goes into more depth than dr

Geisler did in the sermon he tries to argue that when it says those whom he for know he foreknew he predestined that My Comments on this are an error.

Now. What have I said very clearly? I have challenged people to recognize that the common understanding of the

Arminian or the synergist at this point is that when the text says for those whom he foreknew what it actually means is

Those whom he foresaw the acts of faith That is what they are

Assuming this means is that to foreknow? means to look down the corridors of time and see the actions of human beings and specifically the actions of Saving faith on the part of individuals and seeing what those individuals will do

Hence passively taking in knowledge of future events then on that basis.

He predestines them to Salvation And I have pointed out that this is not what the term means that this is an active verb

Active is the is a description and again David doesn't understand this but there's something in The study of the

Greek language called action start Which talks about the kind of action?

It's not strictly Related to the English language at that point. That's where one of his problems is and That this is something that God is doing as is predestination justification calling

Glorification all the actions of the golden chain are divine actions.

God is the subject He is the one accomplishing these things. These are all divine actions and therefore if you're going to assume

That to foreknow means to passively take in knowledge. Then you need to defend that you can't just simply

Assume it that's what I was pointing out that many people have just assumed that this action on God's part is the same thing as mere the mere possession of knowledge of future events and the reality is that when

God foreknows a New Testament the direct object is always personal not actions in future time these are just simple facts and Unfortunately, David does not understand them and more so is not willing seemingly to learn

I would like to believe I certainly have Recognized that people change a lot between about 18 and 22 and There are things that take place in life that in essence

Caused us to grow up shall we say and my hope for David is that that will happen as well

And so let me just play this portion of his commentary and Like I said,

I've uploaded video. You'll be able to see as well and you'll be able to see the expressions on his face I'll stop it at one point and comment on what he's doing.

But let's listen to to David's commentary Let's have you ever read Romans 9 We read from the

Bible was great. I like the Bible I believe what the Bible says, but I maybe believed half of the garbage he threw it in between there because he added so many human thoughts that were outside of Scripture to it that I Really have to label him as at least ignorant

Anyways, I hope to show some of the problems I have with his interpretation here

From Scripture and for basic grammar where he's totally wrong All right, let's start by rolling a clip from the video

This isn't even three minutes in and listen to the error that he makes for new

He also predestined to become conformed the image of his son. So he would be the firstborn among many brothers I just stopped long enough to Challenge in the minds of anyone who thinks this term for new as a verb is the same thing as the noun

Just simply have foreknowledge that you are wrong And that you need to look at the text of Scripture and realize this is an active verb

This is some every time God is the subject. Okay at this point in the video

He is covering his mouth and and now he slapped the side of his face and he's bought

He's in a mocking fashion going. Oh, really? This is what's going on in the end of the video this time

Okay, you've said enough sir He's only partially correct in what he's saying here it's almost hilarious

It's also kind of infuriating how the way he's passing this off. He's correct. This is an active verb

But he's not correct in saying that it's an action and that God is doing But let me tell you something.

There's a huge difference between an active verb and an action verb Would you like me to explain it to you?

This is a simple grammar lesson for James White. I can't help it I'm a humorous guy at heart.

I got a joke a little bit but So this is actually titled a simple grammar lesson for James White and his followers now remember this is an 18 year old high school graduate who has never studied a word of Greek in his life and This is the kind of attitude that is being expressed by these young people.

And by the way afterwards I'm gonna look at his his YouTube site and others are linked to it and there is a there is a whole series of these

Channels of these synergistic young men who really detest the reform faith they

It's not dislike or disagree. It is mocking. It is detestation

It's it's without substance, but what would cause somebody think about this? What would cause young people to be posting

YouTube videos along these lines? What what produces that?

Honestly, this is so terrible An active verb is one that Conveys the notion that the subject is the one for lack of a better word doing the verb to you know the predicate a

Passive verb is exactly the opposite the predicate does to the to the subjects.

Let me give you an example I know that fact that fact is known by me. I just gave you the same sentence reworded twice.

Okay? In the first sentence, I've used an active verb tense. I know that fact

I Am the subject I'm the one who knows the fact in a second sentence. The fact is known by me

Well, the fact is now the subject but it's not the one that knows me. I'm the one that knows it So the predicate now knows the subject and that makes it a passive tense

It does not change the meaning of the sentence though. It just changes the structure So unless Greek is radically different from English here, and I very much doubt it because I tried to look up on the internet

You know tricky things with Greek active tense didn't see a thing I please notice that I tried to look on up on the

Internet tricky things about the active in Greek there's there's the level of Scholarship here

Tricky things in the Greek He we've just been told by the way that whether you say

I hit the ball or the ball hit me is the same No, no, it's not really the same thing actually

And that's not really the point here. Anyways, but be that as it may There's there's the but I continue on it.

So believe me. It's almost assume It's the same thing as English in which case James White you are dead wrong on this issue

There you go James White Doesn't matter how many years you talk.

I looked it up on the internet and in English This is how it is. There's I Anyway Simple fact is knowing is a state of being verb

Thinking learning studying those are action verbs. Those are things you do, but knowing is just a state of being it's awareness

It's a way to paraphrase knowing it's just awareness of a fact or a phenomenon or whatever whatever you want, okay

Yeah, and and so Knowing is just awareness So when when

Adam knew Eve And she bore a son exactly so if you're just aware of someone that's

No, obviously not Once again, I am

I am thankful that when I have responded to people like Dr.

Geisler that I have not had to adopt this kind of attitude in so doing and you'll see that when my video uploads that I Really try to exhort this young man to continue his biblical studies, but to do so with something called humility

That that would really help him out a lot so awareness, it's a state of being

And I don't give a rip if it's in the active verb tense or if it's in the passive verb tense

It's still a state of being verb and it doesn't change the meaning of the text Well, and of course, that's where he's wrong because when

God knows Jeremiah in Jeremiah 1 5 he's choosing him when he knows the people of Israel.

He's choosing them He's simply ignoring these things. He's ignorant of these things And when he says he doesn't give a rip

Based upon his errant English grammar as a high school student Once again, we see the real problem in this kind of approach so By making this error

James white I have come to the conclusion One of three conclusions here. He's either ignorant.

He's never heard this information before didn't pay attention in English class. He's stupid He's been presented with it and doesn't understand it or he's a liar.

He understands it just fine and he wants to You know enforce an interpretation on the

Bible that can't be gleaned from the scriptures And in order to propagate a false theology that might damn your soul to hell who knows?

I'm not the judge. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I hope he's just ignorant, but he should know better and For that I say

James white shame on you So there you go, there's the first about four minutes and 40 seconds

Evidently, I didn't listen well enough in English class, of course, the problem was that I was actually listening in Greek class.

Yeah That's where the the problem lies but As I said,

I I have asked this young man. I have gone on to His his

YouTube channel and I have asked him let him know that I was going to be

Discussing this and Invited him to to call the program and we will we'll see if he if he will and Someone in class is asking how many years they teach that well,

I started teaching At least For Golden Gate in 95 if I taught both

Greek and Greek exegesis But I had actually started teaching it before that. I think as early as what was that 19?

Well, I was teaching it at North Phoenix in 86 because I remember my wife was taking that class and had to drop out to have a baby and so yeah,

I took Four years in college three years in seminary and seven years total at that point and So be as it may

I just noticed that the video is now Up, and I'm right now as we're talking

Changing it to a public format so that people can watch it.

And so here comes Oh There it is and so that's changed and so those who are listening live right now if you want to go to my

YouTube channel there is a response with a horrible horrible screenshot.

I Just love those YouTube screenshots I'm definitely gonna have to change that one, but it responds to To This young man and you can

See it there. So it should appear in a minute or two once the database updates, so there you have

David and hopefully that will be of assistance to To David and to others in the future so I'm understanding that we have a phone caller, so let's go ahead and Talk with Stephen.

Hi Stephen Hello, Stephen All right,

I don't Don't hear anything Am I missing something back there in the studio?

Okay, well guess we've lost our phone callers so we'll We'll pick up with that later on once I'm informed as to What what's going on at the studio as far as that is concerned?

So let's go ahead with the playing of the Norman Geisler material and Let's see here.

There it is. Hopefully we'll be about at the right place. We were before I got the information from that and So let's pick up with where we were with Norm Geisler and we've gotten to the you of tulip

It is only unconditional from the standpoint of the giver. Let me illustrate If I decide to give you a million dollars out of the goodness of my heart without any strings attached

You for me

That's an unconditional gift there's no strings attached you don't have to work to get it But you do have to do one thing to get it.

You have to receive the gifts. I mean I can offer $1 ,000 ,000 and you still don't have it

If you're going to reach out and get it, so the gift is unconditional from the standpoint of the giver

But it's conditioned on the reception of the receiver.

You must receive it to get the gift Irresistible Unconditional or one of the extreme

Calvinist says there is not even any condition before you receive it You don't have to believe to receive it

In fact, you can't believe because you're so totally depraved just can't understand it and you can't receive it

It's something That God has to impart in you and then once he gives you salvation

Then you're able to believe after that and of course now once again, we see that dr

Geisler is engaging in the same kind of equivocation that he is engaged in before That is he continues to confuse regeneration and all of salvation and having adopted a

Bad view of man an unbiblical view of man He now posits the idea that man is capable of quote -unquote receiving

Eternal life that this is something he is simply able to do in and of himself despite the biblical teaching in Romans 8 and chance

John 6 and other places that that's simply not a possibility He hasn't addressed those texts.

We mentioned last week. Well, we should we should hear some discussion of these texts, but One of the major problems and chosen but free was exactly that there the key texts were nowhere to be found.

They were not Presented they were not discussed and when

I wrote the Potter's freedom I wrote to To dr. Geisler and I I asked, you know, where's where's the exegesis of John 637 and when he wrote back he said why exegete it fully and so I when

I wrote back I quoted every single citation of John 637 in the entirety of chosen but free and The preceding and following context there was nothing even close

To exegesis of John 637 and I said am I missing something?

Was there editing done to the book? something like that that would explain the difference between what's in the book and your statement that there is this full exegesis of John 637 and The only thing

I got back was a little Postcard that said if you publish I will respond norm.

That was it And so I tried I certainly showed dr. Geisler significantly more respect

Than young David. Let's put it that way and I I tried to look for why is it that chosen but free?

Simply does not even attempt to engage in the key text now people ask. Well, why do you think that is?

I Would suggest it is because dr. Geisler really is not familiar with reformed theology

To any deep level I I have talked to a number of people over the years and They have often said the same thing that as soon as you start talking about The topic of reformed theology

Dr. Geisler's eyes glaze over and he defaults back to the the issue of you know free will and That's just all there is to it that's

There's there's no willingness on his part to consider the possibility that maybe

He's been wrong about this all along now. I can understand why when you've gotten to about 70 years of age or past that now and The entirety of your theological system has been built upon the assertion of human autonomy

That that free will is more central to your theology than the

Trinity or anything else Then You really can't even give consideration to the possibility that maybe you have

Missed something along the way and in fact it is it is central to divine truth.

And so It's definitely something as to why it might be that dr.

Geisler would miss these things We're go ahead and take our break and then hopefully have Steven ready to go when we come back from our break here on the dividing

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Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you All right.

Well, I managed to get all the changes made on that video. So hopefully the thumbnail will update That was that Really really bad.

So anyways, let's see if this time we can get Steven on the air Steven. Are you there? Yes, I am.

There you are. Hi, how you doing? I'm doing pretty good. How about you? Good. Um, I was wondering my

My dad he doesn't really like you because you uh, like make fun of people and laugh at him and stuff and uh in we have your book, uh

I'm debating Calvinism with Dave Hunt and in there he says that you say

That you would rather doesn't have done the book with the Norman Geisler instead of Dave Hunt and I was wondering from scripture

How do you how do you defend your position? Well, I'm not sure what you mean The potter's freedom for example shows

Norm Geisler a tremendous amount of respect if you if you mean something like an 18 year old who is willing to post videos

Of mockery and my pointing out. He doesn't know what he's talking about I Consider that to be mocker, but you mean by a scripture verse

Why I do what I do or or I don't recall in the book ever saying

I would rather do this with Norman Geisler I would like to debate. Dr. Geisler. I think that would be very useful

I think debating William Lane Craig would be very useful because in debates both sides have the opportunity in an absolutely

Equal playing fields to engage the other and you can't dodge questions unfortunately,

Dave Hunt Dodges the questions that he's asked in in the book and when his publisher contacted me after I wrote my open letter

He wrote the book. What love is this? I was one of its main targets he went after me very strongly in that book and accused me of false teaching and I wrote butter correcting him on new

Objectively to his insertion into a later edition of what love is this? Asserting that the first 13 chapters of the book of Acts were originally written in Hebrew and that therefore the original

Hebrew would have read XY Or Z. Well It's just ridiculous it to even begin to assert that no one

Believes that but but Dave Hunt has been willing to grab hold of anything In fact, he got that from a

Yaoist cult We looked it up on the Internet as to what his sources were and he got it from a

Yaoist cult, so there are there are things like that where I guess you might consider it mockery to point out when someone's made a massive mistake, but That that actually isn't mockery.

I think what young David posted where I'm talking about the meaning of the verb to foreknow

And he's sitting there laughing and hitting his head and doing that's that's mockery I've never done that to Dave Hunt or anyone else

I think we need to make a differentiation there, so I'm not sure what

What kind of a verse I can give you to? substantiate responding to factual errors and to grammatical errors and Historical errors, whatever whatever it might be

Is that really what you're what you're looking for or if I misunderstood your question, no, that's not looking for Yeah, well

You know, we're supposed to speak the truth. And I think this is an important issue and When folks accuse me of being a false teacher

And yet they don't do so by providing biblical Foundation a biblical basis or they engage in eisegesis

It's not mockery to respond and to demonstrate what their errors are and when they start getting desperate in their methodologies so as to Be asserting the things that Dave Hunt has asserted

Rather than openly and honestly engaging the subject Well, the mockery simply comes from the fact that they're the ones that made such horrific mistakes that just simply to point to them it has to be embarrassing to the person who's made that basic kind of blunder and put it into print and then amazingly is willing to Correct it.

I mean that error in What love is this to my knowledge is in the current editions that are shipping to this day and people have contacted his ministry about it and they've asked about it and and Yet they they won't they won't even admit the errors that have been made and especially with Dave Hunt That's one of the things that is really troubling for me.

And that is we have documented numerous errors on his part He will never admit them

If you make a mistake, you know, I I've said many times I in a debate on papal infallibility with Tim Staples back in 2000

I Misread a quote and I attributed to the wrong person doesn't change the relevance of quote, but I made a mistake

I misread something the debate was Shabir Ali because of the form that was on my screen

I gave the wrong author for a citation. We make mistakes but when you won't then go back and explain what that was and you

Will get it over and over again Keep so that's not a good thing in any way shape or form so for you know,

I Don't know what you mean by I'd a fair analysis of my response to Norman Geisler or William Lane Craig or Dave Hunt to say that it amounts to laughing and mocking them

That's that's not the case. I have spent a huge amount of time Providing in -depth responses to what these men say and and there's laughter is when someone

Raises an issue or makes a point that it's just so far out there that you either got a laugh or cry one of the two and so I do not believe that there is a substantial

Element to the accusation that the substance of my responses to people is nothing but mockery

That's that's not an accurate representation of what I do Okay, thanks Okay.

All right. Thanks. All right. Thank you. All right. We have another Caller on the line as well with a question about Hebrews 1029.

Let's go ahead and go there Pretty good.

All right. I was just calling because I had a question about Hebrews 1029

Specifically the portion of that says Well after it says how much worse punishment

I'm using the SE Do you think will be deserved by the one who spurned the Son of God and profaned?

The blood of the Covenant by which he was sanctified and is outraged the spirit of grace

I guess I'm looking for sort of an example of or explanation of What exactly it means by having been sanctified or being sanctified by the

By the blood of the Covenant and yet Yet receiving the punishment

Right. Well, I would direct you to the comments of John Owen on this subject in his massive commentary on Hebrews I very much agree with his conclusion

That's the one who is sanctified in Hebrews 1029 is the Son of God And so when it says by which he was sanctified

This is a commentary on the preciousness of the Covenant by which he the

Son of God was set apart or made holy in his office as high priest and so What is being spoken of here?

Is that this worse punishment will be deserved by these apostates? Remember the whole subject of the book of Hebrews is the pressure that's being placed upon the

Hebrew Christians To go back to the old ways They are being told to give up this belief in Jesus as Messiah To go back to the temple and to offer the sacrifice.

Yes, and to therefore offer that sacrifice Say that the

It's offered by the Son of God I'm sorry.

Well, I'm doing this by Skype. So there's not much I can do about that, but the the assertion being that To go back to the old ways and to go back to offering of those sacrifices would be to profane the sacrifice of Christ and to In essence spit upon upon Christ so The the question is when you have the the term

Found in Hebrews 1029 That is translated sanctified.

What is the antecedent? Who is it that has been sanctified? You can understand it in two ways grammatically and that is that it is the apostate the one who has spurned or the

Son of God and Owen argues very convincingly and I believe he is correct

I believe it fits very well with the argumentation and the flow of the the text of Hebrews chapter 10 that the one who is

Sanctified is the Son of God who by his office remember in John chapter 17

Has set himself apart as that one sacrifice, right? so Definitely do see that how that works with the flow of the text because I'm just looking at the flow of the text and I'm saying you know, um

Okay, so, you know the whole soul Jesus is superior over the former priestly sacrifice in which there was a consciousness or remembrance of sin and Yeah, and so basically the way

I was seeing it and Basically, I'm saying That okay, you spurned the old covenant, but then you spurned the new covenant sort of The blood of the new covenant how much worse would it be for you to spurn the new covenant?

It's sort of the way that I was saying that That is to say how much worse would it be to spurn the blood of Christ having been saved and Well, the point is that the person who has made a profession of faith who is amongst the

Christian people has already by making that profession of faith Moved away from the the old covenant and has been put out of the synagogue worship.

So to go back to that is what is being discussed here to go back to that involves a spurning of the

Son of God a Profanation of his offered blood and an outrage the spirit of grace

I mean so you have three things there that are pretty strong pretty strong terms spreading profaning and outraging and Therefore And you have you have the

Son of God? His work and the spirit of grace that has that is supposed to bring that work to fruition in a person's life so you have a real trifecta there of apostasy and and this is the

You know the I think this is what John would refer to As that's a sin that we are not to pray for someone for it says there is a sin in the death

I'm not saying that you should pray for that. I think that's the same kind of context in in the first John is this person who has

Known what the truth is and then for various reasons love of family, whatever it might be Goes back and that person is clearly a person who is committing a very very grave sin

Which is what is being warned against here in the book of Hebrews Wow, that really does fit so well with The That weirdly really acts very well as a basis for for the statement earlier in verse 23, let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering for you promised faithful if if we had our the one who has had the confession of hope and Put their faith in Jesus Christ would certainly not want to do such a thing to the

Son of God that Beautifully works together. Yeah. Well, and I think and I think

Hebrews 10 One of my favorite passages some people don't like it because they don't like having to explain the the warning passages but the reality is that Hebrews 10

Puts two things right next to each other that that have to be understood and accepted

Hebrews 10 1 through 14 Presents to us the finished work of Christ and the fact that it perfects all of those for whom it is made

That is the divine side that is the the what we would call the sovereignty side the perfection side or where the death of Christ Perfects all of those in the

New Covenant But then you have the reality that as I stand behind a pulpit or as you might stand behind a pulpit and look out over The gathered there

A new work has really begun and so I have to know what are the the pressures that are being faced by these people

What are the pressures being brought against this congregation? And so I need to warn them

Regarding those dangers regarding those things that are out there and that becomes the means by which the

Holy Spirit of God does two things one is to cause the perseverance of the Saints and the other is

To bring the condemnation of those who are not truly of us they went out from us so it might be demonstrated that they were not truly of us having been warned of the eternal consequences of Apostasy of going back to an old way that really isn't a way if a person still does that then clearly you do not have a

Regenerate person in that situation and so you have these two divine truths that have to be held in balance

Neither one can be thrown out if you throw out the Reality of the warnings you end up with the easy believism of Bob Logan and other people where there's no repentance

There's no holiness. There's no purpose in God redeeming us Unlike the clear statements of Scripture that we have been

Chosen unto the so we might be holy and blameless before him and love all that gets thrown out

But then if you don't accept the preceding part that talks about the fact that is Christ alone who saves

Christ alone Who has the ability to save the Christ saves perfectly he never fails by one sacrifices.

He has perfected for all time Etc. Etc. Then you end up with all the work salvation systems where you join man's merits and works for the grace of God so that's where the balance has to be found and Of course mankind's tendency is always to move away from that position of balance

Yes Okay, absolutely, I definitely See the see the connection between truth is beauty

I mean, it's beautiful how things work together like that and in a way that only God's Word can show yeah, that for me is one of the

Something I can't really give to someone else but I can point to them I I have in as one of my slides in the presentation that I will give

Thursday evening in the dialogue with Imam Shamsi Ali on Long Island One of these slides in that presentation specifically states that it is the the harmony

At a much deeper level than most people would think to that it would exist but the harmony of the

Word of God its consistency over this 1 ,500 years for That is one of the greatest

Evidences to me of the divine nature of Scripture and I Don't think that anyone ever really gets there if we're not always approaching the scripture with humility and a recognition that His ways are above our ways and I I think there is a modernistic

Mindset where those of us who living in this day think we are so much smarter Than those who lived in the past when the reality is

I think we all Think on a much more shallow level than people did only a few generations ago.

I think we're too distracted. I think You know, I I mentioned to be in the program that that I visited the

Princeton Seminary and Cemetery and I Yeah, and I I Look at what those men accomplished.

I look at Jonathan Edwards I look at BB Warfield and I consider the depth of their thoughts and the brilliance of their insights and The body of work that each produced that had been such a blessing to me and I realized that They're light years beyond me.

I stand merely upon the shoulders of Giants and I just Wonder why there are so few today

More in the past who had that ability to see beyond just the now and See what's important and on an eternal scheme so that their writings remain relevant long after they themselves are gone

That is something that is something I would aspire to but I don't think that I have in any way shape or form attained and at all so When we think deeply like I think that's when we really see

The the gem gemstones of of the scriptures and their harmony in their beauty

Well, thank you very much, sir. God bless you in your ministry. I'm very appreciative of it. Okay.

Thank you very much for your call Yes, thank you Yeah, I in In speaking over the past few days here in in New Jersey and doing so often with many pastors in the audience

I have Been struck by how many times people have come up to me and have

Indicated that something that I have done in the past has been of use to them.

I cannot tell you how humbling that is In some senses how frightening that is one thing for certain when

You speak at churches Last last year. I spoke at a church that the primary

Impetus in its forming was the Potter's freedom was a book that I had written coming up on nearly a decade ago now and There's nothing that convinces you that your lifetime is passing more than that And it is it's true.

It is humbling to to talk folks like that Fills my heart with Thanksgiving because that's always what we wanted to do.

We've we've Out in the ministries has never been Something that tries to replace the church

We've always wanted to edify. We've always wanted to come alongside of an assist and provide to elders

Information that in their busy ministerial lives. They don't Just don't have time to be digging through the

Journal of Discourses or The Hadith or whatever else it might be We've we've always wanted to encourage people in that way.

And so to have the kinds of opportunities that we have had to engage in that kind of Ministry and to now get to see the fruits

Let me tell you something when young young men come up to me Maybe after a debate or something like that and they're like, oh,

I I want to do what you do. I Water all over them.

It's not literally, of course I throw cold water all over them And I try to just dissuade them so if I can dissuade them the first anyways, but Reason is they don't know nor do they see the many years where we had

No one attending anything That we did where we would we would announce a

Conference or a get -together or a study or something like that And I would just sit there at the head of a table with handouts and nobody come

That's that's sort of the The price that you pay over the years just to try to you know, keep keep going and So that's that's that's the issue that we face in that context of just trying to let people know

There's a lot more to it. Then then you might you might think I'm getting some indication that maybe

I'm disappearing And no one is there we go.

All right, I'm okay. All right You know Skype works well, but I'm on a little modem and I only have one bar so when you only have one bar sometimes it works and sometimes it

Sometimes it doesn't so anyways as I was saying it has been a tremendous privilege last evening

I think you can get the audio from the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, but we

Spoke on the sovereignty of God and when you have a whole Roomful of people

Who with you rejoice in that truth it is it's a pleasure to preach

And it's a you can you can really get passionate about it And and I did and it was it was very enjoyable a great thing to get to meet you know, like pastor

Dave Dave Chansky from Trinity and Montville and and these just wonderful pastors pastor

Jim Capo was there from the Church of God of Massapequa where I have Spoken more times than any other church outside of PRBC So it's great to have the good the good brother in there,

I'm noticing people in the channel asking why I wasn't using the Wi -Fi from the hotel because the

My modem works considerably better than the hotel wife That's what

I'm using it. I trust it far more than I trust the The Wi -Fi in the hotel.

I just end up having Issues with hotel life by very often so I would rather use my

My modem, which normally works very well, but we have been taxing it a good bit during the program today

So anyways, we're out of time as it is. Thank you for listening to divine. I'm please keep in mind. We will attempt to live stream

Live stream the entirety of the Imam Shamsi Ali dialogue on Thursday evening on this same link so Website listen to the oh very much.

Listen to the violin. Have a good one. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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