June 23, 2009

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Opening Remarks From New Jersey and the Sovereignty of God Conference

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. If I sound a little different is because we are doing this dividing line via Skype. I just realized I forgot to blog that my apologies.

I Said on Thursday, well, I'll let you know on the blog one way or the other but well, anyways, it's our regular time eleven o 'clock Mountain Standard time which out here with the two o 'clock two o 'clock in the afternoon and I am in Pompton Plains, New Jersey.

Which I'm really not sure where it is. I am just so very thankful on this trip for that little Garmin GPS that someone was kind enough to purchase for me. It has gotten me around quite well. Driving in New Jersey is probably the same just greatest challenge to a GPS unit in fact I think a couple of times I have detected a small amount of annoyance on the part of the voice of Yes unit when it tells me to turn right and I can't or left and I can't.

Because you never know coming up to any corner in New Jersey whether you're going to be able to turn right or left. And I have to go the opposite direction or a different direction and it goes Recalculating and I think a couple of times if I listen real closely under its breath It's whispered get out of New Jersey one.

I think that happened once but I could be wrong about that. But anyway, we've Had a great time here in New Jersey, I Mentioned on my blog that I had the opportunity on the Saturday I flew out on Friday on Saturday some of the brethren from Trinity Fellowship Church down in Tom's River took me up to print and Even though it was raining.

So all my pictures are just of really wet gravestone things we I saw the graves of Jonathan Edwards and Sarah Edwards and the Charles Hodge and Aaron Burr and The one that a lot of folks have been there for some reason miss and it really wasn't that far away was BB Warfield and his wife and that was one I really wanted to to be able to see and I and the brethren were talking about the fact that it's difficult to determine where the The real Seminary and cemetery are today in Princeton.

It would seem that you could learn far more in the physical cemetery than you could in the seminary anymore and so which one is the The real cemetery and which one is the real seminary, but as it may then on Saturday well Saturday evening, then I gave my New Testament presentation at the Trinity Fellowship Church and then Had a really good group there and then Sunday morning I think I've already linked to the audio of the sermon on Ephesians 1 and then Sunday evening I haven't checked today whether the folks at Trinity Baptist have put that audio up as yet From John from John 8, but that was I'm sorry.

I Thought I heard something there but then see, there's there's maybe that was my GPS talking to me saying yes get out of there, but The folks at Trinity Baptist had a great time there with all the brethren who gathered together a couple other churches actually canceled their Sunday evening services and Joined with us there and then the sovereignty of God conference began this Yesterday and I was the opening speaker.

There was some real Pressure on me at that point because this is a conference that began that took place initially 70 years ago and The first opening statement the first opening presentation was made by dr. John Murray and I had the same subject a biblical survey of the sovereignty of God's Sovereignty of God in the Bible and So I I worked hard last night and Then we had a Q &A session afterwards, which I thought was going to be a group of us answering questions But actually it was just another 45 minute quizzing of me so I when I got back to my hotel room last evening, I was Pretty tired because the the Sunday morning sermon sermon was an hour and 10 minutes Sunday evening sermon was an hour That ended up being hour and 45 minutes.

So I have preached far more than I'm accustomed to preaching over just a short period of time over the past few days, but I'm not preaching today. The conference actually is going on right now I would like to have been there, but there was just some things I had to get taken care of including that pesky front tire on my rental car, which I eventually just went out there did what you had to do and They performed a full inspection and lo and behold look at the size of that screw right there in the tread of the tires so I found a place and got that fixed and now I can travel to Long Island without Worrying about that thing coming out and all of a sudden we have we have major problems.

So Anyhow, so before we go back to the Norm Geisler sermon, which thanks to rich back there in the studio I have on my my MacBook Pro here so we can continue to listen to that. I was directed to a Video on YouTube today and Well When I first started listening to it, I tried to guess the young man's age I I guessed Teenage or at the most 20.

Then I looked at his YouTube channel and it turned out to be his name is David and he's 18 years of age. I left a a message or a Comment on the video inviting him to call It's a day With young David I just picked up or just upload.

I'm sorry a video response to David to my website to the YouTube channel and Maybe during the break. I'll be able to check and make sure that For some reason my system defaults to private rather than public when it uploads stuff.

I'm not sure how that works. But anyway, I'll Hopefully have that up fairly quickly so people can see it and can see David's video as well, but he is attempting to respond to the posting of my Romans 9 exegesis by Lane Chaplin and It was a troubling video to watch on some levels You can't really see it as much well can't hear it as I play it over the dividing line, but if you if you Look at the video itself.

It is It's troubling and the reason I say it's troubling is here. You have an 18 year old young man He is a King James only us tonight. I'm sorry I know that there are humble King James only us, but I have probably had more interaction with King James only individuals than anybody else that I know and King James only ism does not engender humility on The part of the people who practice it and here you have an 18 year old a high school graduate.

I would assume and He mockingly Dismisses me. I am more than twice his age. Obviously, I could be his father and whether you like my Educational credentials or not. I have taught Greek and Hebrew In a recognized seminary for Demonstrated I believe some facility in those languages and yet here you have an 18 year old who can In essence mock me on the basis of his own ignorance the Greek language as if English and Greek are the same things now It's been pointed out by many.

He made numerous errors In his presentation. He doesn't see no difference between tense and voice things like this, but Really it was the attitude that was so sad because it it's just so very clear. He's not willing to listen and hear to what I am what I'm saying and that's a Real problem, I think so.

I want to play just the section where he attempts to respond to some comments I made comments. I've made many times where when people are Looking at specifically Romans 8 and the golden chain of redemption When they see that phrase, in fact, we just covered this in in Geisler sermon Isn't it ironic then 18 year old goes and tries to go into more depth in error, but goes into more depth than dr Geisler did in the sermon he tries to argue that when it says those whom he for know he foreknew he predestined that My Comments on this are an error.

Now. What have I said very clearly? I have challenged people to recognize that the common understanding of the Arminian or the synergist at this point is that when the text says for those whom he foreknew what it actually means is Those whom he foresaw the acts of faith That is what they are.

Assuming this means is that to foreknow? means to look down the corridors of time and see the actions of human beings and specifically the actions of Saving faith on the part of individuals and seeing what those individuals will do and passively taking in knowledge of future events then on that basis he predestines them to Salvation.

And I have pointed out that this is not what the term means that this is an active verb. Active is the is a description and again David doesn't understand this. But there's something in the study of the Greek language called actions art Which talks about the kind of action?

It's not strictly Related to the English language at that point. That's where one of his problems is and That this is something that God is doing as is predestination justification Calling glorification all the actions of the golden chain are divine actions.

God is the subject He is the one accomplishing these things. These are all divine actions and therefore if you're going to assume That to foreknow means to passively take in knowledge. Then you need to defend that you can't just simply Assume it that's what I was pointing out that many people have just assumed that this action on God's part is the same thing as mere the mere possession of knowledge of future events and the reality is that when God foreknows a New Testament the direct object is always personal not actions in future time these are just simple facts and Unfortunately, David does not understand them and more so is not willing seemingly to learn.

I would like to believe I certainly have recognized that people change a lot between about 18 and 22 and There are things that take place in life that in essence Caused us to grow up shall we say and my hope for David is that that will happen as well?

And so let me just play this portion of his commentary and Like I said, I've uploaded video you'll be able to see as well and you'll be able to see the expressions on his face. I'll stop it at one point and comment on what he's doing.

But let's listen to to David's commentary Bible says but I maybe believed half of the garbage he threw it in between there because He added so many human thoughts that were outside of Scripture to it that I Really have to label him as at least a girl some of the problems I have with his interpretation here From Scripture and for basic grammar where he's totally wrong.

All right, let's start by rolling a clip from the video. This isn't even three minutes in and listen to the error that he makes for new. He also predestined to become conformed the image of his son so he would be the firstborn among many brothers.

I just stopped long enough to Challenge in the minds of anyone who thinks this term for new the text of Scripture and realized this is an active verb. This is something God is doing and every time God is the subject.

Okay at this point in the video He is covering his mouth and and now he slapped the side of his face and he's not he's in a mocking fashion going. Oh, really? This is what's going on in the end of video this time.

Now he's laughing you've said enough sir, correct and what he's saying here it's almost hilarious. It's also kind of infuriating how the way he's passing this off. He's correct. This is an active verb.

He's not correct in saying that it's an action and that God is doing. But let me tell you something. There's a huge difference between an active verb and an action verb. Would you like me to explain it to you?

This is a simple grammar lesson for James White. I can't help it. I'm a humorous guy at heart. I got a joke a little bit but so This is actually titled a simple grammar lesson for James White and his followers now remember this is an 18 year old high school graduate who has never studied a word of Greek in his life and This is the kind of attitude that is being expressed by these young people and by the way afterwards I'm gonna look at his his YouTube site and others are linked to it.

And there is a there is a whole series of these channels of these synergistic young men who really detest the Reformed Faith they It's not dislike or disagree it is mocking it is detestation. It's it's without substance, but what would cause somebody think about this?

What would cause young people to be posting YouTube videos? Along these lines what what produces that? Honestly, this is so terrible. An active verb is one that Conveys the notion that the subject is the one.

For lack of a better word doing the verb to you know the predicate a Passive verb is exactly the opposite the predicate does to the to the subjects. Let me give you an example. I know that fact that fact is known by me.

I just gave you the same sentence reworded twice. Okay in the first sentence. I've used an active verb tense. I know that fact. I'm the subject. I'm the one who knows the fact in a second sentence. The fact is known by me.

Well, the fact is now the subject but it's not the one that knows me. I'm the one that knows it. So the predicate now knows the subject and that makes it a passive tense. It does not change the meaning of the sentence though.

It just changes the structure. So unless Greek is radically different from English here, and I very much doubt it because I tried to look up on the internet. You know tricky things with Greek active tense didn't see a thing.

Please notice that I tried to look on up on the internet tricky things about the active in Greek there's there's the level of Scholarship here tricky things in the Greek. He we've just been told by the way that whether you say I hit the ball or the ball hit me is the same thing.

No, no, it's not really the same thing actually. And that's not really the point here. Anyways, but be that as it may. There's there's the but I continue on it. So believe me. It's almost. It's the same thing as English in which case James White you are dead wrong on this issue.

And there you go James White. Doesn't matter how many years you talk. I looked it up on the internet and in English. This is how it is there's Anyway. Simple fact is knowing is a state of being verb. Those are action verbs.

Those are things you do but knowing is just a state of being it's awareness. That's a way to paraphrase knowing it's just awareness of a fact. Yeah, and and so Knowing is just awareness. So when when Adam knew Eve And she bore a son exactly so if you're just aware of someone that's.

No, obviously not once again, I am I am thankful that when I have responded to people like Dr. Geisler that I have not had to adopt this kind of attitude in so doing and you'll see that when my video uploads that I Really try to exhort this young man to continue his biblical studies, but to do so with something called humility.

That that would really help him out a lot. It's awareness. It's a state of being. And I don't give a rip if it's in the active verb tense or if it's in the passive verb tense. It's still a state of being verb and it doesn't change the meaning of the text.

Well, and of course that's where he's wrong because when God knows Jeremiah in Jeremiah 1 5 he's choosing him when he knows the people of Israel. He's choosing them. He's simply ignoring these things.

He's ignorant of these things. And when he says he doesn't give a rip. Based upon his errant English grammar as a high school student. Once again, we see the real problem in this kind of approach. So by making this error James White, I have come to the conclusion.

One of three conclusions here. He's either ignorant. He's never heard this information before didn't pay attention in English class. He's stupid. He's been presented with it and doesn't understand it or he's a liar.

He understands it just fine and he wants to You know enforce an interpretation on the Bible that can't be gleaned from the scriptures. And in order to propagate a false theology that might damn your soul to hell who knows?

I'm not the judge. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I hope he's just ignorant, but he should know better and For that I say James White shame on you. So there you go. There's the first about four minutes and 40 seconds.

Evidently I didn't listen well enough in English class, of course, the problem was that I was actually listening in Greek class and That's where the the problem lies but As I said, I I have asked this young man.

I have gone on to his his YouTube channel and I have asked him let him know that I was going to be discussing this and Invited him to to call the program and we will we'll see if he if he will and Someone in class is asking how many years they teach that well I started teaching At least for Golden Gate in 95 if I taught both Greek and Greek exegesis.

But I had actually started teaching it before that. I think as early as what was that 19? Well, I was teaching it at North Phoenix in 86 because I remember my wife was taking that class and had to drop out to have a baby and so yeah, I took four years in college three years in seminary and seven years total at that point and So be as it may I just noticed that the video is now Up and I'm right now as we're talking Changing it to a public format so that people can watch it.

And so here comes There it is and so that's changed and so those who are listening live right now if you want to go to My youtube channel there is a response with a horrible horrible screenshot. I just love those YouTube screenshots.

I'm definitely gonna have to change that one but response to This young man and you can See it there. So it should appear in a minute or two once the database updates so there you have David and hopefully that will be of assistance to To David and to others in the future so I'm understanding that we have a a phone caller, so Let's go ahead and talk with Steven.

Hi Steven. Hello Steven. All right, I don't Don't hear anything. Am I missing something back there in the studio? Okay, well guess we've lost our phone callers, so we'll we'll pick up with that later on once I'm informed as to What what's going on at the studio as far as that is concerned?

Foreknowledge, Predestination, and the Golden Chain of Redemption

So let's go ahead with the playing of the Norman Geisler material and Let's see here. There it is. Hopefully we'll be about at the right place. We were before I got the information from that and So let's pick up with where we were with Norm Geisler, and we've gotten to the you of tulip.

It is only unconditional from the standpoint of the giver. Let me illustrate. If I decide to give you a million dollars out of the goodness of my heart without Any strings attached that because You for me?

Just That's an unconditional gift. There's no strings attached. You don't have to work to get it. But you do have to do one thing to get it you have to receive the gift. I mean I can offer the million dollars, and you still don't have it.

You've got to reach out and get it so the gift is unconditional from the standpoint of the giver. But it's conditioned on the reception of the receiver. You must receive it to get the gift. Irresistible Conditioned or one of the extreme calvinist says there is not even any condition for you receiving.

You don't have to believe to receive it. In fact you can't believe because you're so totally depraved. This can't understand it, and you can't receive it. It's something that has to impart in you and then once he gives you salvation.

Then you're able to believe after that and of course now once again We see that dr. Geisler is engaging in the same kind of equivocation that he is engaged in before that is he continues to confuse regeneration and all of salvation and having adopted a Bad view of man an unbiblical view of man.

He now posits the idea that man is capable of quote-unquote receiving Eternal life that this is something he is simply able to do in and of himself. Despite the biblical teaching in Romans 8 and John's John 6 and other places that that's simply not a possibility.

He hasn't addressed those texts we mentioned last week. Well. We should we should hear some discussion of these texts, but One of the major problems and chosen betrayal was exactly that there the key texts were nowhere to be found they were not Presented they were not discussed and when I wrote the potter's freedom I wrote to To dr. Geisler, and I I asked you know where's where's the exegesis of John 637 and when he wrote back?

He said why exegete it fully and so I when I wrote back I quoted every single citation of John 637 in the entirety of chosen but free and The preceding and following context there was nothing even close To exegesis of John 637 and I said am I missing something?

Was there editing done to the book? Something like that that would explain the difference between what's in the book and your statement that there is this full exegesis of John 637 and The only thing I got back was a little Postcard that said if you publish I will respond norm.

That was it and so I tried I certainly showed dr. Geisler significantly more respect Than young David. Let's put it that way and I I tried to look for why is it that chosen but free? Simply does not even attempt to engage in the key text now people ask well Why do you think that is I would suggest it is because dr. Geisler really is not familiar with Reformed Theology to any deep level I I have talked to a number of people over the years and They have often said the same thing that as soon as you start talking about The topic of Reformed Theology Dr. Geisler's eyes glaze over and he defaults back To the the issue of you know free will and That's just all there is to it that's There there's there's no willingness on his part to consider the possibility that maybe He's been wrong about this all along now.

I can understand why when you've gotten to about 70 years of age or past that now and The entirety of your theological system has been built upon the assertion of human autonomy That that free will is more central to your theology than the Trinity or anything else Then You really can't even give consideration to the possibility that maybe you have Missed something along the way and in fact, it is it is central to divine truth.

And so It's definitely something as to why it might be that dr. Geisler would miss these things. We're go ahead and take our break and then hopefully have Stephen ready to go when we come back from our break here on the Dividing line.

We'll be right back.

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Caller on Mockery, Factual Error, and Responding to Critics

Right, well, I managed to get all the changes made on that video. So hopefully the thumbnail will update. That was that was bad really really bad. So anyways, let's see if this time we can get Steven on the air.

Steven. Are you there? Yes, I am. There you are. Hi, how you doing? I'm doing pretty good. How about you doing good? I was wondering my he doesn't really like you because you were like, well, I'm not sure what you mean.

The potter's freedom for example shows Norm Geisler a tremendous amount of respect if you if you mean something like an 18 year old who is willing to post videos Of mockery and my pointing out. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Consider that to be mocker, but you mean by a scripture verse. Or Why I do what I do or or I don't recall in the book ever saying I would rather do this with Norman Geisler. I would like to debate. Dr. Geisler.

I think that would be very useful. I think debating William Lane Craig would be very useful because in debates both sides have the opportunity in an absolutely Equal playing fields to engage the other and you can't dodge questions.

Unfortunately, Dave hunt Dodges the questions that he's asked in in the book and when his publisher contacted me After I wrote my open letter He wrote the book. What love is this? I was one of its main targets he went after me very strongly in that book and accused me of false teaching and I wrote a letter correcting him on new Objectively to his insertion into a later edition of what love is this?

Asserting that the first 13 chapters of the book of Acts were originally written in Hebrew and that Therefore the original Hebrew would have read X Y or Z. Well That's it's just ridiculous it to even begin to assert that no one Believes that but but Dave hunt has been willing to grab hold of anything.

In fact, he got that from a Yaoist cult. We looked it up on the Internet as to what his sources were and he got it from a Yaoist cult, so there are there are things like that where I guess you might consider it mockery to point out when someone's made a massive mistake, but That that actually isn't mockery.

I think what young David posted where I'm talking about the meaning of the verb to foreknow. And he's sitting there laughing and hitting his head and doing that's that's mockery. I've never done that to Dave Hunter anyone else I think we need to make a differentiation there, so I'm not sure what What kind of a verse I can give you to?

Substantiate responding to factual errors and to grammatical errors and Historical errors, whatever whatever it might be. Is that really what you're what you're looking for or if I misunderstood your question, no, that's not looking for.

Yeah, well You know, we're supposed to speak the truth. And I think this is an important issue and When folks accuse me of being a false teacher And yet they don't do so by providing biblical Foundation a biblical basis or they engage in is Jesus.

It's not mockery to respond and to demonstrate what their errors are and when they start getting desperate in their methodologies so as to Be asserting the things that Dave Hunt has asserted Rather than openly and honestly engaging the subject.

Well, the mockery simply comes from the fact that they're the ones that made such horrific mistakes that just simply to point to them it has to be embarrassing to the person who's made that basic kind of blunder and put it into print and then amazingly is willing to Correct it.

I mean that error in What love is this to my knowledge is in the current editions that are shipping to this day? And people have contacted his ministry about it and they've asked about it and and Yet they they won't they won't even admit the errors that have been made and especially with Dave Hunt.

That's one of the things that is really troubling for me. And that is we have documented numerous errors on his part. He will never admit them. If you make a mistake, you know, I I've said many times I in a debate on papal infallibility with Tim Staples back in 2000 I misread a quote and I attributed to the wrong person doesn't change the relevance of the quote, but I made a mistake I misread something the debate was Shabir Ali because of the form that was on my screen I gave the wrong author for a citation.

We make mistakes but when you won't then go back and explain what that was and you Will get it over and over again Keep so that that's not a good thing in any way shape or form so for you know, I Don't know what you mean by I do a fair analysis of my response to Norman Geisler or William Lane Craig or Dave Hunt to say that it amounts to laughing and mocking them.

That's that's not the case. I have spent a huge amount of time Providing in-depth responses to what these men say and and there's laughter is when someone Raises an issue or makes a point that is just so far out there that you either got a laugh or cry one of the two and so I I do not believe that there is a substantial Element to the accusation that the substance of my responses to people is nothing but mockery.

That's that's not an accurate representation what I do. Okay Okay. All right. Thanks. All right. Thank you. All right. We have another Caller on the line as well with a question about Hebrews 1029. Let's go ahead and go there.

Pretty good. All right. I was just calling because I had a question about Hebrews 1029. Specifically the portion of that says how much worse punishment I'm using the ESE Do you think will be deserved by the one who spurned the Son of God and profaned?

He was sanctified and is outraged. I guess I'm looking for sort of an example of being sanctified by and yet. Yet receiving the punishment, right?

Well, I would direct you to the comments of John Owen on this subject in his massive commentary on Hebrews I very much agree with his conclusion That's the one who is sanctified in Hebrews 1029 is the Son of God.

And so when it says by which he was sanctified this is a commentary on the preciousness of The covenant by which he the Son of God was set apart or made holy in his office as high priest and so What is being spoken of here?

Is that this worse punishment will be deserved by these apostates? Remember the whole subject of the book of Hebrews is the pressure that's being placed upon the Hebrew Christians To go back to the old ways.

They are being told to give up this belief in Jesus as Messiah To go back to the temple and to offer the sacrifice. Yeah, and to therefore offer that sack advice. Say that the staff It's offered by the Son of God.

I'm sorry. Well, I'm doing this by Skype. So there's not much I can do about that. But The the assertion being that To go back to the old ways and to go back to offering of those sacrifices would be to profane the sacrifice of Christ and to In essence spit upon upon Christ so The the question is when you have the the term Found in Hebrews 1029 That is translated sanctified.

What is the antecedent? Who is it that has been sanctified? You can understand it in two ways grammatically and that is that it is the apostate the one who has spurned or the Son of God and Owen argues very convincingly and I believe he is correct.