Is Feminism Enslaving Women?

I want to bring you back in. I want to ask you one burning question. You're a biologist. I have two biologists here.

I have a burning question that has been asked recently. I'm wondering if you can help out with. I know that this can't be answered by Supreme Court justices.

What is a woman? Oh, you do not want me to go down this road because sex determination and development.

I mean, Dr. Jensen is probably more familiar with developmental biology than I am. But that's a really complicated question, especially when you consider the complexities of human biology.

Look, I actually do. I talk in class about sex determination, chromosomal determinants, hormonal determinants, genetic determinants.

What determines sex? See, there's no answer to that question that I could answer in the time that we have tonight.

Really? It is a really complicated question. It is a really complicated question. So it's not a question of chromosome

X versus Y. 100 % no. 100 % no. You can ask me the question 12 different ways if you want, but you're going to get the same answer each time.

I don't think it's all that complex. I would answer it very simply. A woman is what God who created the women defines it as.

God created her. He gets to give the definition. So it's a woman is what God calls a woman. Welcome to Apologetics Live.

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We're also going to be having tonight, the topic tonight is, Is Feminism Enslaving Women?

Now, if you want to hear more on this, I'm going to tell you that what intrigued me on this is the fact that I was listening to a fellow

Christian podcaster on the Christian Podcast Community. This is one of the many podcasts that are on the

Christian Podcast Community. But if we were listening to that, to the

Thoroughly Equipped Podcast with Melissa Lex, she'll be joining us shortly. And she was engaging with Amy Russo, who is another podcaster with the

Grace and Peace Radio Podcast. And so we were basically,

I was, I should say, really intrigued with what I heard and said, I need to get these two ladies on here to discuss this in way more detail for all of you.

So that is what we're going to be talking about tonight. But as usual, any topic that you have is open game.

You can come in and join us as usual. Just go to ApologeticsLive .com.

It's scrolling on the bottom so you can read it there. And go to the duck icon, click there. If you're on Facebook, go to ApologeticsLive .com

so that you can give permission for Facebook to share your name so that we don't say, well,

Facebook user when people put comments up. Because we do put the comments up like Kathy, who says greetings from Pennsylvania.

So with that, I want to bring in my guests. Let me first bring in Melissa Lex from Theology, from Thoroughly Equipped Podcast.

Welcome. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me on. And you had as kind of a co -host with you was

Amy Russo. So welcome, Amy, from Grace and Peace Radio. Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Now, this is the first time I'm actually getting to see you, Amy. I've seen your husband this way because he is one of the administrators of the

Christian podcast community. So I see him every week on Zoom. But I, you know,

I also see him another way. Well, not really see him, but I get to see his name because I have this on my shelf.

I don't know if you've ever seen this, Amy. This is a book called Jesus Changed Everything by Anthony Russo.

You know that guy? Yeah, I do know that guy pretty well. Yeah. So a good book on evangelism.

If you want a book, you can just hand out to people on evangelism. It's a very, it's kind of done in a storytelling kind of way.

It's like you're, you're just, you're not sitting there and reading, okay, here's how to evangelize. Or it's, it's, it's really drags you into where you feel like you're just sitting into a conversation.

And so, yes, thank you. Real good book to get. I will say anyone who wants,

I did this with my church. You can contact Anthony. Go to Grace and Peace Radio. You can go through Christian Podcast Community.

Go to their, go to the different shows. Go to Grace and Peace Radio. Go scroll down. You'll see that where you can contact him.

But he will actually design them in bulk and put your church name on the back so that you can get them to hand out for your visitors, which is a wonderful thing to do.

So, and I will say that I listened also to the recent

Grace and Peace Radio. So I'm just going to let our regular listeners know that we're what?

We are five minutes in, not even six minutes. And I'm already declaring we're going into Anthony time.

Now, this is not your Anthony. This is our co -host, Anthony, who always goes over the two hour mark every week.

If you listen to Grace and Peace Radio, you're going to know why I'm calling that early.

I'm predicting now we're going over the two hour mark. We're hitting Anthony time. So those who love

Anthony time, you can start rejoicing already. So I did try to get your

Anthony on here. I figured maybe we could get some really bad jokes. He's good with the dad jokes.

He's good with it. He has perfected them well. Yeah, and he keeps me laughing. What can

I say? Well, I'm glad he keeps somebody laughing. You know,

I'm just not getting the joke sometimes. I was going to say it's a

New Jersey thing, but you should get that. If it was a Jersey thing, I would get that.

And so let me switch cameras. I'm going to use this camera because it hides the mess on my desk.

All right, so let's get into this a bit. I want to give some overview why the title is

Feminism Enslaving Women. But what you did, Melissa, on your show where Amy joined you was you reviewed a book.

I'm going to ask Amy for folks to understand your background. You were not born a

Christian. Wait, no, no one is. I forgot. But your background plays into this tremendously.

And I mean, I've heard you on on your show with your husband on Grace and Peace Radio talk about your background, your insight, your love for books.

And so that is very important to understanding. Some of this is your background because we're going to talk feminism.

And for folks, you're going to hear some new terminology. Maybe you're not familiar with or haven't heard of a first, a second and a third weight of a feminism.

I'm going to ask the ladies to define those and help us understand those different waves and then look at how they're they're playing.

So and as I said, Melissa Lex has and I was

I don't know if you even know this, Amy, but I enjoyed it so much. I asked Melissa if I could take that part one of the episode that you guys did.

You guys did a two parter. I took part one and put it on my rap report podcast so that more people would hear that.

Of course, hoping that everyone would go and listen to part two on Thoroughly Equipped. It really got me thinking, which

I like any podcast that gets me thinking. So let me start off. I'll start off this way.

Melissa, let me let you introduce yourself to folks. I know you've kind of popped in here once before, I think. But if you can introduce yourself, your podcast, and then

I'm going to I'm going to let Amy introduce herself a little bit longer. Okay, sure.

So the podcast is called Thoroughly Equipped. And basically, I take women's ministry, teachings and books and speaking engagements, and I look over them and I basically compare it to scripture.

Right now, we're going through the IF gathering. And we're looking at the whole ministry.

And everything that's involved in is Jenny Allen's ministry. And basically, just I'm very methodical in the way

I do things. So I like to attack it from bottom up, basically.

And so we're just comparing it to scripture, what they teach, what they use, the tools that they use and stuff like that.

And for this show, I this portion of my show, I have also included what

I call the Titus two times. And so we've just kind of started this and I was looking at we're looking at Titus two,

I want to look at it very much in depth. And so the first thing I had to look at was woman, what is woman

I had to define that. So that's what I did on the first Titus two time for this one.

And then when Amy suggests or Amy came to me and said, this book is wonderful.

I wonder if you've read it. I was like, yes, I already read it. So and that's kind of how this the last two

Titus two times came about and are attacking feminism. So, yeah. OK, and I don't know if you saw

I put up some comments here from Melissa. She said, I need to go listen to that podcast.

And Kathy here says, it was a good podcast. I heard the feminist podcast. I did like it.

Where's this comment? I saw a comment here that cracked me up. I should have started made a start.

It's like, oh, here it is. KT is saying, it seems like the names Melissa and Justin are popular for Apologetics Live program.

Oh, and Chris. Yes, there's going to be popular names here. Um, and just to let folks know, you know, another

Melissa, but Bonser and for Christ and saying I'm in a game of at Fallout 76 with Missionary Gamer, who we had on here a few weeks ago.

If you didn't see that, go check out that episode where he is a full time missionary in the gaming platforms.

And so he's he started getting a follower here from from some of our folks. And so Melissa is saying,

I sent I sent to Peter Missionary Gamer. I was going to talk. Please pray for him to get involved with Bible and participating at local church.

I'm guessing he's not talking about Peter, the missionary. She's because Peter, the missionary gamer is very active in his local church.

But that does remind me I was supposed to start by reading some comments. So I'm going to let Amy introduce herself.

And then I have some feedback I was supposed to start with. And I forgot. Sorry, folks, but I'm going to let

Amy. Amy, if you could let folks know, you know who you are, your podcast that you do with your husband, but also your background, because that's going to be very important for this discussion.

OK, my husband, I Anthony and I have

Grace and Peace Radio, and I became part of that. Oh, my goodness.

Maybe two years ago just started that he says, hey, you want to just sit in and, you know, let me bounce things off of you.

And I found I just really liked it. And so we discovered it was something we enjoy doing together.

So that's what we do. And we just try to be encouraging, keep them short and just encourage the other believers to stay in the word and just honor the

Lord every day. As far as my background, I came to the

Lord late in life. I was 42 when I was saved.

And even then, while I believe I was soundly saved, there was a lot of I was

I say I was the most liberal new believer that you probably had ever met.

It just took time, you know, to do Bible reading and that kind of thing.

And, you know, my background is, you know, working in higher ed.

And, you know, when I was working on my master's degree, it was in literature. And even my undergrad,

I was doing a minor in literature. And so feminism was a huge part from day one when

I was taking literature classes, then going into my master's degree in English and doing feminist literary criticism and those kinds of things.

So I've had a lot of that infused into my thinking even before I was a believer.

And it has its effect because even after I became a believer, it took a while to really understand biblical womanhood and shed a lot of that stuff.

So, yeah, it's enslaving and it's tough to get rid of. Yeah, and you did some postgraduate work.

You were doing reading and literature on things dealing with this topic as well, right? Right.

Most of the when you get in the master's, a lot of what I had to read dealt with criticism, you know, literary criticism and feminist literary criticism.

So the Simone du Beauvoir that we talked about, you know,

I didn't read her in depth, but I had to read bits and pieces of of her works and all of that stuff.

I forgot. This is what's going to happen. I'm going to go blank. I'm going to have to look at my notes. But a lot of these other women and what they were saying, you know, as a nonbeliever and having nothing to anchor myself to, this all made perfect sense.

And so you grab onto it. And that's what I was doing. Yeah. And and so this is the thing that you've you're you barely pick up books and read, right?

You don't read anything. You've been talking to my husband.

No, I read all the time. Yeah, that's why Melissa and I get along so well.

You did it. There was an episode when early on, when you came on your podcast with your husband, you guys discussed just some of the books that you read.

And I think your list, just just a list of your books, if you just listed them, it kind of took up the whole show.

Yeah, kind of. Yeah. Actually, the lists were so long, he didn't have time to get in a bad joke at all.

Maybe not. Oh, so so let me before we get into this.

I was bad. I was supposed to read some reviews because some people sent us some sent some email and I was supposed to read that.

So forgive me for those of you who sent this in. So let me let me just read some of the feedback we have gotten on some of the the podcast.

First off, this is from Virginia, and she's she says hi from an

Alaskan listener. She said, I interacted with you a bit on your

Facebook page a few weeks ago regarding women's sin of and the curse of man, which is still an eye opener for me.

I recently listened to your podcast regarding health and trials, and it was very poignant to listen to.

And I absolutely loved how you refer to your wife as, quote, your bride, unquote. She thinks that I shouldn't do that, by the way, folks, but everyone else seems to think that's good.

But I continue. She said you were encouraging people who listen to write an email.

So here it goes. I started listening to your podcast because I was listening to Voice of Reason radio podcast.

I used to work with Chris Honholds in another lifetime. My husband was a co -worker of Chris when we lived in Nevada.

I didn't even remember what Chris was talking about when he was referring to your show, or it might have been plugging the

Christian podcast community, and you were the first up that I had checked. And your series on what we believe,

I love it. I moved over 40 times in seven states in my 56 years here on Earth, somewhere from circumstances beyond my control, some following my husband, and we were where we'd end up.

Some were attempts to be closer to my grandchildren. I'm going to stop there and say I'm looking forward to that part.

My first grandson is coming in January. Looking forward to seeing him, and we're probably going to.

I know we just moved to Pennsylvania, folks. I'll probably be moving again to Ohio. But here she continues.

She says, true story. We moved southeast Alaska to the

Pacific Northwest to be closer to the grandchildren. Less than one year after we moved, they moved to the east coast.

I heard you say that your bride's culture is to be near the kids and grandchildren.

Grandkids, let me give you a tip. Be sure that you both enjoy the area you moved to.

The only reason we move near the kids, the only reason is you move near the kids and they leave.

Then you find out you don't care for the area you just moved to. Trust me, it isn't an

Asian culture that you want to do that to. We just can't afford to move to the east coast after buying a house on the west coast after following a major move from Alaska.

It's hard to explain, but once you've lived in Alaska, it tends to draw you back within a few, after a few miserable years on the west coast.

We're puzzling over what's wrong with the churches in the area

I've lived for so many years. We watched the reasons we move fade away. Other family members passed on.

We decided to move back to Alaska a few years ago, 90 miles north from another one of your podcasters,

Nathaniel Jolly. That is, he and Eki have a podcast together, Truth Be Told Podcast, so plug that.

So she says, I don't want to be rambling much longer. I may be putting you to sleep, but since that's not something that you do well, perhaps that'll work to put you out in the end.

After speaking of sleep, I just ordered two of my pillows. And yep, I used your promo code.

Thought you might enjoy the segue. I learned that from you. So yes, I do, Virginia, enjoy that segue.

And folks, if you want to use to get a good MyPillow, we do have a promo code.

It is SFE. And we do, we always say, if you share us pictures of you using your

MyPillow, we'll share it right here. And let me just, actually, let me just bring this up.

Let me bring Cole in here. Cole, I just want to bring you in because I really appreciate, a couple of weeks ago, you wanted to model for us and promote

MyPillow. So Cole, here you go. We really appreciate you. This was the after show of, during the after show, when

Cole was soundly asleep during half the show.

And the after show, we tried waking him. He did not. But he was saying, I need a MyPillow, use promo code

SFE. So that's Cole completely out like a light.

You got to be careful. If you're going to go to sleep during a show when you're backstage, Cole, don't go asleep to the point where when the show is over and we had a whole conversation and we were saying,

Cole, wake up. Cole, wake up. You were really out. So that must have been a MyPillow behind you.

That's my theory. I'm here for the memes. Yeah. So this is our new promo for MyPillow.

Just go to MyPillow .com, use promo code SFE and get a good sleep like Cole.

Yeah, don't fall asleep in your computer chair. Your neck won't appreciate it. You can't get a better sleep than Cole did.

So I'm sorry, Virginia brought up the MyPillow. I had to.

That's a great time to plug it. She goes on and says, thank you for all your hard work. Enjoy the next chapter of your life.

And remember to rest on those nice, comfy MyPillows. So that was one feedback we got.

That was the longest one, folks. But I promised I'd read some of these. So I wanted to give some back. Kelly had reached out to me and was looking for some information.

I sent it to her, asked her to let me know what she thinks. So here was what Kelly had sent.

She said, as promised, you asked me to respond with my thoughts to the resources, the resources from Striving for Eternity.

So here's what she says. I have one word. WONDERFUL!

That's an all caps exclamation point. She says, my only complaint is that I did not find your resources sooner.

I completed lessons two and three in your school of biblical hermeneutics. Keys for correctly interpreting

God's word last evening. So I'll stop here and just say, if you want, we have an academy at Striving for Eternity.

It is, well, free. You can watch it all on YouTube until they kick us off YouTube. And then we'll move to Odyssey.

But you can go and watch all the classes there for free. You could buy the syllabuses at Striving for Eternity.

Just go to strivingforeternity .org. When you get there, go to the academy page.

Then you could see each of the classes that we have. She continues. I was trying to wait until I'd complete the entire syllabus.

However, I'm far too excited to wait. I have learned so much in just these three lessons.

For example, I own each of the study Bibles you mentioned, but now

I know exactly how to use them. I now actually understand the purpose of a concordance, because as you mentioned in the video,

I was using it incorrectly. It's far more powerful than I understood. And her third point, she says,

I have a better understanding of how the Bible originated and the textual criticism.

These are just a few of the things I've learned. What's sad is that I called myself, unquote, walking with the

Lord, unquote, for 30 years and realized that in 2020,

I wasn't even saved. Since then, my appetite for the word of God and learning correctly of him has been voracious.

But seeing as how I spent 30 years in the dark and learning wrong doctrine,

I'm at times very afraid of taking in wrong information.

Finding resources that I can trust is both encouraging and refreshing. Admittedly, I am convinced to use your resources because of the endorsement of Phil Johnson.

I've found grace to you and similar ministries to be my wellspring during these exciting, albeit scary times, because I feel like I'm learning everything new.

Oh, and I have to mention how very much I love the videos. They are the perfect length, pace, content, following so nicely with the syllabus where I make my notes.

But most important to me, the teaching is not above my head. I definitely am purchasing the other syllabi.

Truly, I am at a loss for words for the good things I can say.

I just thank the Lord and you for your ministry and will be recommending it to others.

So we want to thank Kelly for that. And I will say that the syllabus for, especially

Melissa is a homeschooler. She's involved in homeschooling movement. These courses have been used by homeschoolers for the very reasons she mentioned, that it seems that it doesn't,

I don't talk over people's heads, that it seems to be something that everybody enjoys. One last one from Peter Hammond.

He was missionary gamer we had on not too long ago. And he said, I just want to commend you brothers for being so loving and respectful and patient in your conversation with Matt.

This is last week with Matt Slick. He said, trying to help him see why the stance he has taken is biblically inaccurate.

That was a tough conversation. And I learned so much from your thoughtful and wise discourse.

I am not familiar with the other two gentlemen. He's referring to Chris and Drew from Matter of Theology, another

Christian podcast, community podcast. But he says not familiar with the other two gentlemen. But you all were such a great example of faithful brothers speaking the truth in love, praying for Matt now and thankful to God for faithful brothers like you demonstrating how we are to conduct ourselves with difficult situations like that.

So I will say, Melissa, I know you were on Matt's after show that he had after we did that.

And in that, I will say I listened to it. I was too tired to join him.

But as he said, he felt that Jim and I did not make very compelling arguments for the cessation of gifts.

He thinks we didn't really answer his questions. But if you heard him, he actually said, but those guys are going to say the same about me.

And yes, we will. But that's the thing. You know, folks, if you listen to last week's show,

Matt and I are really good friends. He's one of my very dear friends. And we disagree on so many topics.

And you see that's one that he gets very emotional with. And yet we could disagree with it. And we can deal with what the scripture says, try to reason through it.

That's how we should be handling these things. Just like the left does in politics, right?

No. Okay. That was my segue into the left and feminism.

Can I say real quick to Virginia? She's my email buddy.

So we've been emailing back and forth. Yeah. So you even know who she is. Yeah. When you know, how do you know it's that same

Virginia? Everything she told you, she told me. Oh, pretty much.

Yeah, it's really good to see through your ministry. And people just she reached out to me because you had my episode on your rap report on Harmonutix, by the way.

Okay. Yeah, neat. That's right. I was on your show talking about Harmonutix. You know, which so I played the intro for this show just for this topic.

So we could define what a woman is. But we're actually going to do what I want to do. I want to ask you, ladies, if you could help in defining what is let's start with the first wave of feminism.

What was the you know, what's the first wave of feminism? What was its goals?

In that first wave. The main goal was to sorry, Melissa.

No, no, go ahead. Um, the main goal was to have women be equal citizens with the men.

So voting rights, legal rights. Once women became wives, this is what

I'm looking at. 1848 was when this first conference was in Seneca Falls, New York.

Once women became married, all their property and all their rights for that property were completely gone.

It all belonged to their husband. And so as Melissa and I discussed, what you'll find with some of the roots of this, like other things like, you know, unions and other things, they started out for good reason.

Because and all bottom line is sin, but women were not being treated well.

And, you know, they should be considered citizens and voting citizens at that. So that's where this started.

And that's a good idea. But as we discuss, you'll see as things move along that, you know, as I think even the author said that women were sinned against, but women sinned even more in the response, in their response to it.

So that was that was essentially the first wave. And just with that, I think for people today, it's hard to conceive of when women couldn't like vote, let alone have a time in our history where if a woman was married, she lost all her property.

And so when we look at this, I mean, when we talk about feminism, what

I want us to do, I mean, this is like what I teach when we come to scripture, we need to put ourself in the setting of the time.

Because a lot of people just think, oh, feminism, all bad. Because I think in the feminism today, but put yourself in a position, you know, think about a time when a woman had basically no rights.

I mean, no rights to property. If if her her husband, if her father was wealthy and left everything to her.

Basically, the only way she could keep that is if she married someone and all that wealth went to him and he could spend it any way he wants.

And so when we talk about this first wave of feminism, I just want our audience to kind of put yourself in that position, you know, to thinking what it would be like living in a time when that was the law of the land.

There's even more as you do some more research. We tend to think of first wave feminism as the suffrage, you know, the suffrage and and all that.

It actually has even more deeper roots in the foundation of America. You have

Abigail Adams asking her husband, as you know, they're working out the

Constitution and all this stuff to to include the women in it. Then you have a little bit later,

Mary Wollstonecraft, who is talking about just women getting education.

So it's not just not being able to vote. It's education and it's family life.

One of the things that I found out, the suffrage movement really took off was off of a actual court case where a woman was married to a man who was very abusive.

And basically, he ruled so much. His rights overpowered her that he could put her into a separate house.

He would take care of her. Of course, that was something that he was supposed to do, but he could take his her children away and prohibit her from seeing her children.

So we're looking at parental rights, voting rights and education. Yes. So when we talk first wave,

I think many of us today would actually support that first wave of feminism.

I think there's a lot of good that came out of it. I think there's there's a lot that should have. I think it was important at that time for women to have equal rights.

They were not, you know, look, even in America, which was based on Christian values, we see or saw we could see in history the fact that it still had the influence of every other culture that treats women as second class citizens.

Even if you go to Arab countries today, the things we just described are still active in Arab countries today, which is always confusing me that the modern feminist movement wants to go after the

Christians, saying that we're the ones against. Like, wait, do you know what the Muslims do?

Exactly. Yeah. We'll get we'll get more into that and why as you start to see the progression of feminism.

Yeah, that's right. And even some of these women, I mean, what you heard us on the podcast, speaking about Elizabeth Cady Stanton and.

You know, Susan B. Anthony and that, you know, yeah, they were they were feminists and they wanted to take it to a different level.

But there are some like Abigail Adams. Of course, the word feminist wasn't a word then, but she would not have defined herself as a feminist.

She fully believes she from what I've read, because I read the biography on John Adams, I think she was a believer, but she believed in wife and mother and home.

And but yet she also, as Melissa and I talked about, she ran the household.

I mean, John Adams wasn't home most of the time. He was in various governmental places.

He wasn't even there for his own son's funeral. Exactly. He found out. And this is like, as I've studied

John Adams, and I do believe he was probably a believer, but he didn't. You know, he had a son who was, you know, an alcoholic and drinking all the time and ends up dying.

He's in Washington and he finds out about his son's death from a letter he gets from his wife three months later, like they've buried him.

And she's telling him about the funeral, because that's how slow the mail was. I mean, it's hard for us to think about that in a time where we could text and get an immediate response around the world.

Right. Yep. So I think there's, when we talk about first, second, third wave of feminism, the first wave, we would say this is really tied up with basically equal rights as far as property, rights to vote, just having an ability with, you know, having a say in your life and not being controlled.

And even in a country like America, where it was based on Christian values, we see that some of that culture that we've seen all over the world did influence even here, because this was part of our laws.

And this is where, you know, and as you guys mentioned on your show, Susan B. Anthony, most people just know because she's on a coin.

Other than that, no one would know who she is. And it's funny because, you know, when you said that,

I kind of laughed when you said that on the podcast, because I was like, my, when

I heard that, this is what I thought. I was like, wow, you know, the thing is, though, most of the feminists that wanted to put her on the coin, she probably wouldn't agree with what they were doing on the names of feminism.

Correct. Because it was something that continued to morph.

So let's define then, what is the second wave of feminism? Amy, I'll let you start.

This is the one where I was a little more familiar with it. Simone, and I'm going to butcher her last name because I don't speak

French, but de Beauvoir, I think is how you say it. So I just call her Simone. It sounded right to me.

I mean, my. I'm sure we'll be corrected somewhere along the line. And I and I welcome that.

But I'm just calling her Simone. She was the one that she was had a relationship.

This was she was in France. She had a relationship with John Paul Sartre.

So if you're familiar with philosophy and whatnot, just he was a big deal back in the day as far as philosophy goes.

And she's the one who really defined the term of women as the other, the other sex.

And how we are oppressed because we are, you know, under man and made to live under these sexual restrictions that shouldn't be there.

But, you know, as we discuss with her is the hypocrisy, the second sex.

That's what I was trying to find the title of her book. She's best known for her work called

The Second Sex, which was published in 1949. And, you know, she was with John Paul Sartre for 51 years in a so -called open relationship.

Yet it was non monogamous. She said that nothing that she achieved in her professional life, she said this toward the end of her life, was as great as her relationship with Sartre, which was dysfunctional to the max.

And yet when he died, he cut her out of the will and left his estate to his latest mistress.

So it just was this whole idea of women as other. And, you know, at this point,

I'm not explaining it well. Carolyn McCulley explained it much better in her book that we discussed.

But it made sense to me at the time that I was reading all this stuff of, oh, yeah,

I must be oppressed, you know, because, yeah, I am the other. And I think the biggest thing

I find with feminism, back when I was looking at that and living that, is that you're perpetually angry.

Because you're always perpetually looking at other people as, if not already oppressing you, going to.

So, but Melissa, you jump in there. That does describe much of what we see in the culture today.

It is the anger that comes from the left. And I saw an interesting study recently that they've been doing this every year for like 20 years to find out which groups of people are happiest.

And they've consistently discovered that religious conservatives are the happiest people.

And it's interesting because this year they got fed up, I think, with constantly hearing that conservatives are happy and liberals are not.

That they tried to explain this away. And they basically were trying to say that the reason religious conservatives are happy is just because they just don't care about this world.

They just are thinking that everything's going to get better in the next world. And therefore, they don't care about this world.

And the reason those that are on the liberal side are angry is because they're seeing what the conservatives are doing to this world.

And I'm like, okay, yeah, the conservatives get more upset with what, the only thing that makes conservative, religious conservatives unhappy is what the liberals are doing in this world.

Pretty much. Exactly. Go ahead. No, I was going to say, yeah,

Simone is a very interesting individual when you look into her life.

Besides the hypocrisy, she was a philosopher. And it's interesting, in part two of Amy and my discussion, we get into the background.

And I think the background really shines light on why the movements progressed the way they progressed.

So we have the women in first wave fighting for rights and legitimate rights.

Now they've won the rights, they have the vote. And then you start to see in 1920s, women were already in the workforce because of the wars.

And so they were progressing into the workforce.

Something about Simone is that she was a Marxist. She was specifically

Hegelian. She studied Hegelian because she was a philosopher.

And so she's taking the idea of the dialectic. I don't know how much people know about the

Hegelian dialectic. Why don't you explain it a bit? So a little bit is in philosophy.

It's not actually Hegel's dialectic. He takes it from, I think, Kant. But he changes it to be more worldly focused.

So the idea is you have a thesis and then you have an antithesis.

And then these thesis and antithesis, they kind of fight or they're in tension with one another and you produce this thesis.

So in philosophy, that's kind of how people are saying that's how you come and arrive to knowledge.

But Hegel took it and you see it in Simone taking it to a deeper level on how somebody can come and arrive to knowledge of themselves.

And so Marxist, you see him using this too. So an example is the thesis is capitalism.

And then the opposite of that is your antithesis. And the goal is then socialism.

So I didn't know. I don't know enough to know what he said the antithesis was. But all that to say, so in Simone's writing, she talks about man is the subject.

He's always been the essential. And women, the way we're supposed to come and know that we are women is based on what is and what the object is.

And we're supposed to be the opposite of it. So then she says, so then that's why we're called the other.

Now, women has to break free of being of being called the other, right, and to move on to synthesize and come to knowledge or to arrive to an understanding of what woman is.

And that's basically what her book is about, answering the question, what is a woman?

And so she says, women, that is, how does she say it? It's women, women aren't, sorry, women are becoming basically is what she's saying.

So you break free from all the rules and regulations and you're to find out who you are by becoming.

And then you can define what woman is. Becoming what? That's the issue.

Welcome to philosophy. Great. Hence, the reason we played the at the beginning of the episode, me asking a, in case you ladies didn't know, that was a

PhD professor at Rutgers. Right. He is a

Rutgers PhD professor in biology. Yeah, that was pitiful. Yeah.

So, I mean, we've had a Supreme Court justice say, I can't answer that question. Only a biologist can answer the question.

What is a woman? Well, even a biology professor can answer the question. And actually, if folks, you go back,

Dan Cardinal came on and we spent an hour or two with him trying to define what a woman is.

And it didn't get any better after two hours. What I can answer in moments.

I mean, it's not very hard to answer. God, whatever God, the one who creates women, that's what a woman is. Well, and the biology straightforward as well.

The fact that, you know, they go on and on about how, well, it's biologically complex. No, it's not.

God didn't make it that complicated. Every child can figure out the difference between a man and a woman.

Now, nowadays, we get some that dress up and do things. But so one of the things, you know, you brought up some really good points,

Amy, on the show that you guys did, which I think a lot of people may not be so familiar with.

I was because I followed people like Gloria Steinem and Aldridge and these types.

But part of the feminism movement at the time, I think this is the second wave, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, believed that women shouldn't get married.

No, because they felt that was control. Yeah, that was control. And I think I can't remember if it was Gloria Aldridge or I think it was

Aldridge who actually said that all sex is rape. Oh, well, that wouldn't surprise me.

But yeah. Yeah. But you brought up an interesting point with these women that they said these things early in life, but then something changed with many of these women that you pointed out on the show.

Well, yeah, Betty Friedan was one where, I mean, she ripped up her husband publicly when they got divorced, intimated that he hit her, which she ended up spending a good part of his life trying to refute that.

And later on, she did say, she says, well, not, you know, essentially not really. She had kids and then was very involved with her grandchildren.

And, you know, one of the things that she said at the end was that she really did believe in marriage.

She thought that it was it wasn't a bad thing. And Steinem, Gloria Steinem, she ended up getting married.

I mean, granted, she was in, I guess, her 60s, maybe early 70s when she finally got married. But she's the one who said, you know, was it a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle or something stupid?

Yeah. And I think I think it was Steinem that made that comment about sex is all sex is rape. But that could very well be.

Yeah. She got married. Yeah. I always said like, wait, but you got married. Are you having that in your marriage?

And I don't understand that either, because in, you know, the the 60s and free love and all of that, you can't tell me they didn't participate in that.

So I don't I don't quite understand that statement. Yeah. Now, what we end up seeing with this, with the whole thing of feminism, right, as as it starts morphing, what is the third wave?

What do we see with the feminism today? Unless today's an action, maybe now getting into the fourth wave, maybe they would say yes.

Yeah, starting in 2010, it would be the starting of the fourth wave. And it's more cyber cyber centered.

OK, so let's get let's deal with what the third wave is then before. What when and when would be the third wave?

I guess I never thought of that one. But when one of these breaks the first, the second, third, fourth, what would be the time frames for them?

So first is you're looking at the American history. So 1700s, very early on, a very long progression to about 1920.

And then you have 1940 is when Simone produced her book.

And that's she really started the second wave. And so then 1980 is where they would say it.

Amy mentioned in the podcast that we did that they do overlap. You basically have literature that comes out in the previous wave that pretty much people have.

It's given like 20 years and then people just it explodes. So 1980 is 2010 is third wave.

Supposedly. OK. And the third wave is it's not

I don't think it's with any one person. But what what really came out is it's seen more in pop culture, right?

Called raunch culture. You know, I don't know how many of your viewers might be familiar.

I never even heard of that. And I try to stay up on the insanity of our culture. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, you see the 60s, the free love.

That's kind of a lot of it. Yeah. And then then is and really you do see it as what

Melissa said with from 2010 on, as far as technology, you see the start of that in the 80s and 90s with music videos.

And what we talked about that Macaulay referred to in the book as from those girls gone wild videos and this whole idea that sex is empowerment.

Yeah. This this was the thing of that I heard you guys mentioned that this was kind of like the light bulb moment for me where I went, wait, things are starting to connect now.

The fact that what we have is feminism. Well, I guess not today. The third wave of feminism, you end up having.

Women that were originally trying to say, look, we got to break away from just being sex objects for men.

Are now the feminism is to be nothing, nothing but a sex object. Right.

And this is where I saw that the modern and this is where I came up with the title for this and asked if this would be

OK for the title. But when I was listening to what you guys are saying, went, wow, feminism is enslaving women into being sex objects because because that seems to be the thing now that they're it's almost like they're nothing.

They have nothing else to offer but being an image for for men to view or not even men anymore.

Yeah, that's your ranch culture in the early 80s. One of the videos that we or that Macaulay mentioned was the girls gone wild is where you really start to see that blow up the talk of women, like Amy said before, being able to express themselves freely and, you know, don't tread on me is what

I kind of think. And I know that's I know there's a section to that, but the don't tread on me and my

I'm free to express myself anyway. And this is really because it's a progression over time with that with Simone, who who talks about you have to become a woman.

So the only way to become a woman is to find out what what that is. And you break free of all norms, all morality, all sexual restrictions, and you are free to experiment.

And it's about finding your identity. So then that's what you see.

The progression of ranch culture really, yeah, takes takes off big time, blows up.

And and it's it's encouraged and it's it's glorified that the idea of exposing yourself is somehow empowering.

And mind you, all these ideas I bought into all this stuff back in the day.

You know, it's it's like it's my body, so I can use it as I see fit.

And it wasn't until after I was saved and even a few years, you know, it took a while to realize, you know what?

The very reason I hit bottom was because I realized I was not free. So all the talk of freedom and it was actually enslaving you.

No, it was because giving myself away was whether emotionally or otherwise, because I could.

Was like just the lowest form and nothing came from that.

There was no power in that. It's it's as empty as it could possibly be.

And that's the lie these women believe is that they are somehow empowered. And this is giving them meaning and this is filling their life.

And it is exactly the opposite of that. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that so so you mentioned that, you know, the girls got wild.

And when that was popular, I was against that. But when I listen to you to talk, and this is the thing, like men and women think differently.

You had a totally different perspective of why it was wrong that I never thought of. I viewed it. I mean,

I viewed it as, you know, this is this is denigrating to women. That I like I thought these women were being, you know, and some of them were being bribed and whatnot to do this and peer pressure.

And I'm like, this is denigrating to them. This is this is not healthy. And it's just for, you know, men's fantasies.

But then you opened up the whole view of from a woman's perspective of how the women were encouraging this, which blew my mind that women were encouraging women to expose themselves this way and and be involved in films like that.

And the whole, you know, like there's there's actually which which I've now started to realize there's a whole industry where women feel empowered by being in the whole porn industry.

And like, to me, that is mind boggling because, you know, you think about what that is.

And it's like, how is that empowering you to be an object to someone's fantasy or control?

I you're you're the whole thing of porn. I had I had a guy who used to work for a ministry that had an addiction to video games.

And before he was saved, he had an addiction to video games and porn. And he had said that the you know,

I had noticed a trend that guys would be addicted to those two things. And he said the reason is, is because they have one thing in common.

They both are in fantasy where you're in control. The guy, the player of the game or the guy that's watching porn, they're in control.

They get to drive that fantasy. And so the woman in in the in that sense is nothing but an object of his fantasy, living out what he wishes we control her to do.

And I'm going, like, I'm listening to you and going, how can women think this is freeing? How can women think this is empowering?

Well, you got a lot of them. They can walk away from it here. Yeah, I want you to explain that here, because like for I think for many in the audience, they're not going to understand that.

Yeah, I would say is I think that women, if they, you know, my body, my choice, right?

And already there are not. They're not Christian. They're enslaved to sin.

And if you have been grown up in feminism and this worldview, even starting in public school, at least where I was growing up, where women should be as sexually free as men.

And you need to be as sexually free as men so that you can find your identity. You can know whether you're bisexual.

You can know whether you're heterosexual. You can know that now it's a million different options, right?

You can, if you're experimenting, you get to be under the false, the lie that you have control over your sin and you don't.

So you are, I think for women, it's, they go into it because I have control of my body.

I can say when it stops, I get lots of money. I'm, you know,

I'm doing this for, to say I'm not oppressed by the man because it's my choice, me doing it.

And it's really not, it's enslavement because then you find out you are enslaved to just the world of lust and sin.

And it is like Melissa said, it's all based on sin. And what do we see the world do in men and women where they're holding on to, whether it's their own power, their own idea of hope in whatever fashion they call that, what they think their legacy is going to be.

And they will do that in any form or fashion that they can, they can do it so that they feel good.

Whether you call that empowerment, whether you call that your identity, you know,

I can walk away. It's because it's lost, it's being lost.

It makes sense in your world where now I look at that after having been, you know,

I'm 60 this year, so having been a Christian since 42, you know, reading through the

Bible and looking back at that, it's like, how could I have believed that?

But I had no anchor. I had nothing. Yeah. Well, and if you've been told that it's part of your identity and then you find out somebody comes and tells you, no, that's a sin.

You are offending. This is what I say nowadays. You know,

Bodie Bauckham says that the 11th commandment is thou shall be nice or thou shall not be mean.

I think nowadays the 11th commandment is you should not hinder me from finding my identity.

I think this is where we are now with the whole culture. And feminism has its critical theory and critical race theory really comes from feminism.

It's coming out of it. It's a branch out of it. But the idea that I need to find my identity, and so I'm going to find it if I'm a white woman,

I'm going to find it if I'm a Black woman or whether I'm a male or female, I have to find it and you can't tell me what my identity is.

So, I mean, being nice, you know, if you tell them, no, that's, that's a sin.

It's like, no, but this is what I like. And this is what I have feel like is the right thing for me.

And it's part of my identity. And it's my truth. Yeah. Melissa agrees with you,

Melissa. She says, Melissa Lex, exactly. Some people were saying you nailed it.

Melissa said, I think you guys nailed it on the head. I'm going to bring Cole in here.

He had a question for you, though. I'm going to let him finish chewing his food there. That's the advantage of being,

I can see him backstage, so I could see when he's sleeping and when he's awake, when he's munching and when he's kissing his wife, which he was just doing not too long ago.

You had a question for the ladies. But you got to unmute yourself first.

Just tell me how to live my life. OK, just do that for me. OK, OK, so no,

I was I was making it to him. But so like there is a thing that came up in my mind. You're talking about second wave feminism, talking about critical theory stuff.

One of the people I ran into recently was this Gail Rubin character, and she mentioned something about sex, positive feminism, sex, negative feminism.

How does that play in with that second wave and what you guys are talking about here?

OK, I did research on this and I I need to do more research on this.

But that's this comes out of the ranch culture from what I've read and listened to.

So the sex positive would say, OK, let me start with the sex negative.

Basically, it's avoid all set again. It's about finding your identity.

So the sex has been such a big play in the last 50 years that it's now it's like you got to avoid sex to find out who you are and becoming a woman.

So you avoid sex, period. Um, sex positive is where you're and there's two camps in this, too, that you're free to be free with whoever you want, whenever you want.

There's actually I should correct. There's several branches. You have a lesbian branch where there's like all free sex in the lesbian community and they avoid all male issues or all male patriarchal things.

And so being a lesbian is part of becoming a woman, learning how to become a woman. Then you have the porn.

You have two in the porn industry. You have those who are against the porn industry and those who are in and will politically try to work for laws for pornography and those who fight against pornography.

So they're all about free love either way and in all forms.

So that's the little bit that I know. I don't know a whole lot, but hopefully that answers a little bit clarified.

Well, that helps me because I hadn't heard that. So basically, it's just a house divided.

Feminism is so divided. It's crazy. So we start to see second wave where Black people,

Black women even are saying that feminism within the women within feminism, it's all a white institution or a white cause.

And so they break away and they are no longer call themselves feminists. They call themselves womanists.

And this is Black Lives Matter. Yeah. This is who is the founders of Black Lives Matter.

This is the thinking they have. Right. Correct. And it's all about intersectionality and finding your intersectionality is all about finding your identity and putting it into like taking a pie and cutting it up and saying that I'm this whole thing.

But this is me. I'm a third Black. That's I'm oppressed in this way and I'm oppressed this way.

And yeah, it's and so then they break up and they're fighting and it's just not peaceful, period.

Well, and that's what's so pitiful about some of the stuff seeping into the church.

Because, you know, me interacting with a lot of that kind of thing, even under different names, pre -Christian, seeing that now is ridiculous.

And it drives me crazy because it's like, how long it took me to get to where I am in Christ, my identity is in Christ.

So we are all human. And, you know, we don't identify.

I mean, I certainly don't identify to my sins prior to that. I'm in Christ now, forgiven.

Yes, Missionary Gamer says, so wonderful that I have my identity in Christ now.

And that's the thing I think a lot of these people don't understand. I mean, we look at this and I will admit,

I look at this in our culture with this puzzle. Trying to understand them just doesn't make sense, right?

The whole idea of we're going to empower women by saying that anyone can be a woman.

And therefore, any guy can go on a girls volleyball team and be a woman and then take the scholarships away from biological women.

You know, I forget where this was. It might have been New York. I don't, but there was, there's a guy who wants to be, he's on the girls volleyball team, but he's a guy and he's in the locker room showing his things to the women, making crude comments to them.

And they felt uncomfortable getting undressed with him and having him dance around in front of them as you know.

And so they complain and they're punished. Absolutely. They're now, they now have all of the girls share a single bathroom to get changed in with no shower.

And he has the whole locker room to himself. Instead of just putting him in there.

So where does feminism stand now? If in this culture, and Melissa and I touched on this a bit,

I don't even know if it was in the podcast or even just our discussion after we were done recording is.

So if there is no gender, if it's a social construct, then why is there even feminism?

Why are there feminists fighting for women's rights? What's a woman? If you can't define what a woman is and what right are you trying to uphold?

Well, this is the, this is the thing that I said to the one woman I had a, after it was leaked that Roe versus Wade was going to be overturned.

And I've shared this story here on this, on this show before, but many new people listening here on Apologetics Live on YouTube, whatnot, but also on Wisdom App.

So I'll retell the story, but had a woman at the grocery store, two people in front of me, and she's talking to the cashier and she, she's saying very loudly, very openly,

I can't believe people could be so idiotic to not believe that a woman's choice should matter.

So I just figured if she's going to be so loud and bold, because this is part of the thing of Marxism is to force

Christians or force conservatives to feel like they can't voice their opinion in public, but the liberals can do it as loud and proud as they want.

So I just turned to the lady and said, ma 'am, I agree with you. Murder. We should allow murder. And she just looked at me and said, well,

I wouldn't do it myself. I just, I just think others should have the right. I said, I agree. I wouldn't murder anybody myself, but I think others should have the right to murder.

And so suddenly she looks and she goes, well, I just don't think it's right for a man to tell a woman what she could do with her body.

And I said, so then you should be against Roe versus Wade. That was nine men. Zero women.

You should be against Roe versus Wade. And so she was like now flustered because she like every one of her arguments.

She see, this is the thing. She never was actually challenged with these thoughts. And so she's like, she's flustered and she goes, well, you have no right as a man to tell me what to do with my body.

And I said, excuse me, when did I ever identify myself to you? I never said how

I identify. Like gave me this disgusted look like, you know, you're a man. Suddenly on the abortion issue,

I'm a man. Any other time I could be a woman, right? It's a thing where, like, and then she got frustrated and walked out.

I apologize to the cashier and the lady in front of me. And I think the cashier was actually kind of in agreement with her until the lady in front of me goes, what kind of person does that?

Like, because I said, I'm very sorry. My mother raised me that you keep your opinions to yourself, especially in public.

And the cashier was, I think, about to kind of agree on the abortion issue. And the lady in front of me goes, yeah,

I mean, who sits there in a shop, right? And, you know, starts openly, you know, speaking about abortion like that.

This is not the place for it. And then the cashier kind of quieted down. And, you know,

I was just agreeing with her. That's all, you know, just but you see, this is the thing.

It's, you know, I was I find that with the abortion issue, it really kind of because abortion was the issue that a lot of women tied their feminism to.

And now you end up seeing, as I had on the streets, when Roe versus Wade was overturned, I was

I remember I was out in Ocean City, Maryland, and I turned and I said, is there anybody because I wanted to get a crowd to do open air preaching to?

And I says, is there anybody here who thinks that abortion is a woman's right?

And I had some guy raise his hand, stop and turn and walk toward me. I said, first, do you believe it's a woman's right?

He said, yes, I do. I said, can men get pregnant? He goes, yes. I said, then how's it a woman's right?

And he just stared at me, turned and walked away. Because now we don't

I mean, what is feminine? What is womanism? If you're going to define it that way, it has no meaning if we can't define the term.

And if the term can only be defined, as Dr. Cardinale had told me in email, that it can only be defined by a trans woman, which was also what in Matt, you know,

Matt Walsh's documentary, What is a Woman? He had someone a, you know, say the same thing that only a trans woman can define.

So I guess, Amy and Melissa, you guys can't define what a woman is.

Right? Because you're not trans women. This is where we've come.

Well, I can attest to the fourth wave is kind of dealing with this right now.

And that was, let's see, we had a comment, Missionary Gamer. Peter says,

I'm curious if they would expound a little more on what this fourth wave is.

Yeah. So the fourth wave has moved. You know, now we have social technology, and there is no definition of woman.

Feminism has been come to know about just fighting the oppression, fighting patriarchy.

That's basically what it amounts to now. That's the, I think, only agreement among them is just, and is pure, just hatred for God's institutions and, and patriarchy and oppression.

And everything, everything is the patriarchy. And then, you know, again, we go back to these terms.

So if you don't have a definition of man and woman, then what's patriarchy?

Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's the whole thing. We need definitions.

And without a definition, if your definition is so complex that it can't be answered, then it's not a definition.

And I'm just looking up because I, you know, just to give the other side, Dan Cardinal is saying,

I never said that. So I'm, I'm trying to, while we're talking, look for his email so I could read exactly what he said so that I can get it verbatim.

But, but yeah, I mean, he, two hours and we never got a definition from, from him.

He could try to come in if he wants and give us one. But the, you know, succinct one, but he appealed to what people look like.

Well, when you have people dressing up as the, the opposite sex, yes, it is going to make it hard to, to be able to visually identify somebody by which gender they are, because they're trying to dress like an opposite.

But that's actually one of the things that I made the point in that show that I find interesting.

I have, you know, because of the podcast, because of wanting to be able to be informed on subjects,

I spent years listening to four different transgender podcasts so I could hear what they were actually saying.

So I tortured myself for my audience so that they didn't need to, but, but really it was one of the intriguing things that I got out of it.

There's one podcast where it was two co -hosts, one of them transitioning, you know, from a guy to a girl.

And it's the thing that it dawned on me was everything that he was talking about was what is the stereotypical opposite gender.

And Amy, it goes back to something you had said. It's like, I said this a year ago is that they know there's only two genders.

They say it's fluid. And if it's fluid, you shouldn't need to change the way you dress.

You shouldn't need to change. You shouldn't need to, to get your anatomy changed. You shouldn't, as he was doing is explaining.

It was, he was learning how to put makeup on and he didn't have girlfriends to teach him when he was a child and he didn't know how to put makeup on.

So he's having to learn. Well, why would you put makeup on? Because you are being the stereotypical opposite gender because you know, there's only two genders.

They don't try to be a third. They don't try to be themselves. And that's the thing I find amazing with it, because everything you're saying is identity.

And yet what is the reality? They don't stick to their identity. They change their identity.

That's something I found very interesting because their identity is based on their feelings.

It's psychological. I was listening to a podcast of the revoice that's coming out.

And there was a guy interviewing a, I don't know if she was considering herself transgendered, but she was probably considered herself non -binary.

And he asked her the question. I don't remember, but her response was, you know, right now

I am, I want to be called they, them. And I am expressing my identity with short purple hair and everything else

I wear is men's clothing, except for my bra. And I just found this very fascinating.

Of course, she invokes God as God's, she feels, you know, because if she were to dress like a woman, her excuse for not dressing like a woman is because she would cut herself.

She wouldn't feel right in her skin. And, and again, that's based off of feelings and not some objective reality.

And she wants to blame God for it, but that's the problem where we go with this becoming, there's no way to judge what you are becoming too.

So you are going by feelings and this is why you should be able to freely do whatever you want so you can see how you feel about it.

Everything is subjective. So how, again, we're back to definitions you can't define. That's right.

So let me get some things up here. Missionary Gamer is saying the dressing of opposite sex is a real thing in the virtual world.

And as the metaverse meta -humans take more shape, this is becoming a really disturbing issue.

And so even there now, now, Dr. Cardinal, I guess he's saying he, and I'm going to trust him here.

He said he found all the emails. So I was trying to do two things at once, but I'm going to read since he found them.

I'll read what he, what he says he had emailed me. I'm not, I have no reason to believe he's copying this in error or changing it.

So he said that the email say, because he said he found them all. But if you're, so this is what he said, he said, but if you're looking for someone to talk about sex and gender and specifically transgender issues, what you should do is reach out to a trans woman or perhaps a healthcare provider who specializes in, for example, trans youth.

I can speak fluently in the general terms of sex determination, but I'm not qualified to provide a specific answers you probably want.

Plus generally better to have members of the specific community or someone close to it speak for themselves.

But then, but then I did a little more reading and figured out that you wouldn't reach out to anyone else and came to that chat, despite still thinking that someone who deals directly with these issues would be better.

And so that does sound familiar to what he had, what I was remembering, you know, the fact that we need someone who is a trans woman to speak to what, you know,

I, my question was, what is a woman? And this is the thing of, you know, still, if people say that I need to only, if only women can tell, define what a woman is, that's a problem.

And if only a trans woman can define what a trans woman is, that's still a problem. And I would still say I'm, I've, I'm always open to having anybody come in this show.

If a trans person wants to come in and have a discussion, I've invited dozens and dozens and dozens of them on.

They've never shown up. I'm not afraid of it. I have no problem because I enjoy the dialogue.

I enjoy learning from other people. So Dan, if you want to send some people our way to have the conversations, you know how they can join.

We'd love to talk with them. Not a problem. I'm not afraid to talk to anybody.

Obviously, I go to New York City and stand up in the streets and just share the gospel. Well, and what

I guess I don't understand is where's the science? You know, these are the same people that believe in science, and yet they're ignoring the science.

I mean, it's the same thing when, when people don't want to acknowledge that in abortion that you're aborting a child.

But yet with all the science that we have, all the medical cameras that can see everything inside the human body, how do you ignore that part?

I mean, I'm, that's, you know, that isn't necessarily dealing with feminism. It's just something I am just totally mystified by when these people are touting this stuff.

And, and Anthony here saying, Anthony Svester, who must be watching and should have just joined right in, you know, but he says,

I remember him saying that as well. I, but I questioned him extensively last time he was on the speaking of Dr.

Cardinal. He gave me a lot of gobbling, quote, gobbling, unquote, when I questioned him about genetics.

And, and I do, I mean, go back and listen to both sides of that and, and see what was said. Because that's, that's one of the things we do on the show.

I mean, I don't, I think that we gave Dr. Cardinal ample amount of time to speak for himself and to explain his views.

And that's what we, what we do. But you're kind of, as Jason is saying here, a PhD who cannot speak from quote, authority in biology, unquote.

And, and that would be the thing. Go ahead, Melissa. I was just thinking along the lines, because it's funny that it's

Simone de Beauvoir, who in her writing, The Second Sex, she actually, I think starts the whole, she plants the seed that sex and gender are different.

So when we come in, we ask somebody to define your sex, they, they will look at that biologically, but to define gender is determined subjectively and psychologically based on your feelings.

But, but then again, there's just so much conflicting in psychology, and there's no real form of physically seeing evidence in a lot of these reports.

But yet we so eagerly trust the psychologists who want to describe gender in, in feelings and, and emotions and what one person really likes.

Okay. And that's why then you get people who can be bisexual one, one day, and then decide later on that they're actually going to become gay or, or, or non or pansexual or, you know, that's why we have so many.

Again, it's like the DSM of sexuality. So pansexual is kind of like pan millennial.

It all pans out in the end. So Melissa is saying, she says, what about all those people who regret transitions?

Are now suffering from the side effects. And, and Melissa, this gets to something that, that you kind of were just speaking about is the fact that it, you know, because they're saying it's all about how

I identify, right? They're, they're trying to change who they are to identify differently.

And that's not actually how you identify then. It's, it's the identity people are encouraging you to do.

Well, I think that comes from this thesis, anti thesis thing, right?

Because first it starts out with, somebody's going to tell you, this is who you are. You're going to say, no,

I feel the opposite. And then you're going to try to grow again.

Yeah. I don't know why it works out that way. Just, there's so many illogical things in the way that Simone describes things.

And, and that I see in this type of philosophy and arriving at knowledge and specifically self of the knowledge of the self that I'm, I'm just like, it's so much simpler to just go to the word, you know, that, and that's the key is in, in reading a lot of these philosophies is it makes it so convoluted to where even

I can't speak, making it more complicated than it really is.

And I think that's something that I've, I've really come to appreciate in scripture, really even more so just in the last few years of just read the scripture.

It's what is right in front of you is there. If you have to start making charts to whether it's, it's dealing with theology or dealing with this other thing, if it has to be that complicated, it can't be particularly right.

Yeah. And philosophers like to write like that. That's part of what they do.

And not just the philosophy, but like Melissa said a little bit ago, it's, it's really about psychology.

It's so identifying as a male or female is no longer about the biology.

It's about a psychology. And that has changed, right? This is the whole thing, which, which

I do find fascinating because most of these people that want to argue for this are professing atheists.

And I've used this argument for a long time, ever since Bill Nye, the not so science guy came out with his arguments about transgenders, because he did this whole video on transgenders about how you feel.

But the reality is Bill Nye would say we're nothing but material. And if there's nothing but material, then how could you being biologically male, everything in your biology, your

DNA is male. You identify as female. You wouldn't do that biologically.

You do that with the thing called the soul. That's what psychology is, study of the soul.

And so in that study of the soul, you're appealing to an immaterial part of you.

That's the irony is that the, the professing atheists who have given into this whole transgenderism don't realize they've actually given up their argument for atheism because they had for their whole argument for transgenderism, they have to appeal to an immaterial part of them that their atheism would deny.

And I think it's a, it's been a very powerful argument to use. Now, Dan, Dan Cardinal, Dr.

Cardinal has says this is back to when I said that I gave him time to speak. He says, I agree with that.

I appreciate that you gave me slash us so much time to have the conversation, the convo with everyone could watch.

And when it was Dr. Jensen and Dr. Cardinal, granted, they were speaking over my head with much of what they got into because they spoke at a way different level.

And what did I do? I just backed out and just let the two of them discuss and, and let them have the conversation.

So, uh, and Anthony's saying the reason he's not on the show is he says, I lost my voice.

That's why I'm not in, but he does have a question for you ladies. And this is his question.

He says, I would like to hear the ladies each give a synopsis of how feminism has affected the church, not the blatant feminism that is easy to detect, but the feminism that's not recognized.

So Melissa, I'll, I'll start with you this time. This is great. Cause that's really where I saw feminism in my life.

I didn't, I mean, I went to high school and I grew up in a

Christian household. Um, so I didn't go to college and get this more, uh, indoctrination of feminism, but there's two ways that I saw it come up with me.

And in the church, um, specifically is, um, I saw, um, first this idea that I just had to fit into this mold.

I, my own little heart wanted to be a mother and there was nothing. No education, very,

I mean, besides carrying around a baby, there wasn't that. And then I go on to the church and I'm getting heavily involved in church, um, a life where me, me and, um,

Amy talked about this. The home is viewed very different in feminism. The home is a consumer place and it's all about what you can buy in, in your comforts.

And so in my mind, as in going to church, all my good works were done for the church building and ministry outside of the home.

Um, so for me, feminism made me think that all my identity, uh, or what

I do, my good works had to transpire outside of the home. Instead of that,

God has the home as a place of ministry and it's part of the church.

And so I grew up in some traditional churches, but my major work was in the seeker sensitive church.

And there was a lot of just, you see women in leadership all over the place.

It's freely to, to, for me to step in and say, I just want to do a women's ministry.

I joined the mission. Um, not that women shouldn't be on these things, but we took a lot of control over this kind of stuff because, um, feminism today and what it started very early on teaches that women are the moral arbiters.

Um, this part of women can't ever do wrong kind of thing.

And we still see that today. So, uh, women are looked at as, because they're more empathetic.

They are the go -to to serve in the church community.

We saw that very early on in the early, uh, first wave feminism and the church is always so far behind, but, you know, um, but the church is very women's centered.

It's just, yeah, it's so feminine, feminine. You see it in preaching.

You see it in the dress. You see it in all, all of that. But, and I, Melissa, let me ask you a question with that.

Do you think that's tied back to Genesis three though? Do you think because of the curse, because of the curse, do you think that's tied back to the fact that part of the curse is that, you know, the, the women would want to rule over the men and you have the men usually do are part of the curse is going to do one

They're going to either be non -engaging or abusive, right?

That's where I absolutely, I would say it is rooted in the curse. And I think, um,

I would say feminism really is just the visible, what we see the visible outworking of the curse.

It, it, it really is. It's women trying to usurp authority, uh, and it's first done, uh, because I think

I find this so very interesting. I mean, why was she going after the fruit? She was going after it because she had been told that it'll make her wise and that she would know good and evil.

And this world now tells us that women can't do no wrong.

They are, uh, they, they just, it's almost like they can't sin.

And we really, really see this, the study I went to, cause I go off and all sorts of place, but, um, yeah, when, uh, women are so held up in a high standard in the church and even outside that I am not seeing just men are being, if you want to say oppressed and it goes back to first wave feminism and they were fighting for coverture and, and rights to vote.

You see men now are, their parental rights are restricted enormously.

Um, the, there's a war on boyhood and being masculine. They, they themselves cannot be who they,

God has called them be and put in them naturally. And we see that in the church and that's just,

I just think it's so very interesting while we see it play in a wide, um, in the wide world.

It's so very visible. It is very, uh, also very visible in the church.

We just think that it's okay. Um, and I don't, I mean, at least in the sinker sensitive church,

I know there's different policy polity and church built, you know, stuff like that. So, but yeah.

So Amy, let me give this to you as well. I'll put his question back up there so you can, you can see it.

But, uh, you know, can you provide an answer as well for Anthony? I think in the, in the time that, that I've been a

Christian, I don't know that I've seen as much feminism specifically in the church.

Um, I've, you know, done a lot of reading on outside, but I think in tying in what

Melissa was saying about how things have turned, um, men in the church are not taught to lead because they're, it's, it's almost as if, if they're taught that then they're somehow being oppressive.

But yet I, what I don't see in, in churches, even in the time that I, that I've been a is this whole idea of holding men accountable to, to reading their

Bibles, um, holding them accountable to leading their families, teaching them what that means.

And, and by the same token, showing women what, because we are bombarded out in society with feminist ideas and ideals, whether we realize it or not.

That was the whole reason that, that Melissa and I started talking about this. And one of the reasons I want women to read this, this book that Macaulay wrote, it's infiltrated in everything in our being, whether we realize it or not.

And we need to start discerning the fact of, of how that has, um, become part of our fiber.

So when we are in the church, the church has an obligation to help raise up and show women what biblical womanhood is and submitting, not being a doormat, submitting as God has intended, understanding what our roles are as equal, but different.

You know, God has given us different roles, but our value is still the same and what men are supposed to be doing as, as leaders in the home.

Yeah. And Anthony asked a question. I'll, I'll throw this over to you, Amy, to start. There's two parts here.

He says, yes, can the, can the guests also speak to a woman's identity? Yes. The identity in Christ is always the priority, but how does a woman balance her identity in her husband to become one?

Husband leads household, wife submits biblically versus wife having her own identity.

It was something that I had to work on based on what I had been before Christ.

When Anthony had premarital counseling and the pastor was going over the vows and when we got to obey,

I said, hold on, I got a question here. And so that's when he started, this pastor started working me through scripture because I was brand new

Christian at that point, working me through, through scripture of, of what

God said about me obeying, living that out.

You learn that. I guess for myself, I never really,

I never really felt like I lost my identity when I got married. Now, granted,

I was a lot older. I was 45 when I got married. But I think that's part of what, what husbands and wives, and, and you should be doing this when you're, you're dating, you're intended is discussing these things and, you know, finding out what your roles are and, and how you look at things.

I actually learned from some, some really good women when Anth was going to seminary. I was part of this thing called

Seminary Wives Institute. And I learned from some very good pastor's wives about submitting and, and being a partner to your husband to where I have an obligation to voice my thoughts and my ideas as far as our household and that.

But I listened to my husband's ideas and how he thinks things should be.

And we, the point is to try to come to an agreement as a partnership. But the bottom line is I have had to learn, okay, not necessarily going to go this, want to go this way, but I will follow your lead and go from there.

I don't know if that answers the question, but I never really had a problem with who

I was as Amy. And when I became Amy Russo, besides, you know, obviously my identity in Christ.

Um, sure. Um, I don't think.

Oh, no, it's okay. I think I get what he's asking. I want, I would say.

Well, it's hard to know because you can't see him and he's Italian. So he's got to talk with his hands.

I'm just like, I've been waving, right? I was reading the chat and it was cracking me up because they were, you know, he was saying, what is, you know, what is it when

Italian uses PowerPoint? It's an, it was an Italian slide or hand slides or something, you know, like, you know, where they were.

Yeah, you got it. You see, when you, when you do a show like this, you also got to see the chat has its own. The chat could be talking totally other things.

There was a whole thread going about Italians with their hands waving. So, um. It's okay.

I'm not Italian. My hands wave all the time. So I would say.

Um, I don't, I just don't like this identity talk really period.

I don't like this. The teaching that's for me to know myself is important.

As a Christian, I don't have a goal to know anything but Christ.

And so, um, in, in regards to being a woman in Christ, I, it's sanctification and, um, just submitting.

Um, and I think part of this issue with wanting to find identity is like somehow you're going to be content once you figure out who you are.

And that's a problem for me because who I am as a sinful, wretched person, as I'm more sanctified and coming to know myself, it's not a pretty thing.

And so I feel like it's like, oh, if I'm focusing on my identity, even as a, a, as a woman, um, it is just pace placing a burden on me that I don't need to focus on when

I should be focusing on Christ and, and who he is. And as I'm focusing on him,

I will become a, a woman, a biblical woman. The thing is, is that I, I, I'm going to kind of disagree a bit with you, but then you're identity, but in Christ, because when we find our identity in Christ and become a biblical woman, then we understand biblical manhood and womanhood.

And we're, we're going to understand how the creator who created us wants us to live.

See, that's the missing piece I find in all of this is because their goal is to remove

God, they end up removing the biblical identities that God has established for men and women.

And therefore we don't really know what we're supposed to do. And yet you were talking about the, the, you know, all the effeminate men and that we have in the country, which

I find amazing because so much of, of what we see, you go and you look right now in Russia and especially

China, China, they have outlawed effeminate men. Yeah.

It's outlawed. It's interesting that on their TikTok, Chinese controlled TikTok, uh, they push all the transgenderism to America, but it will not be allowed in their country, right?

They don't allow it because they know the result of it. They've, they they're seeing this.

And so I just, I find it so interesting because I think that where we find our identity is when we find our identity in Christ.

Um, let me just put up some comments that we had that had been going on. Melissa had said, bring back masculine men and godly women who submit to their husbands.

Yeah. That that's, you know, Cole had said, uh, son, you were saying it's called repressive tolerance when the oppressed become the oppressors.

Um, missionary gamer here was saying the only time women are, are not held up as in a high standard is when they're, uh, in their biblical role.

So I, I, you know, the, the fact is, is the Bible, we see time and time again, upholds women in a, in a biblical way.

Um, you know, and Dr. Carnell had said this, he's speaking, we're speaking of detransitioning, he said of the toll of the, those who, who, uh, the teens who socially transition only 2 % detransition.

Um, and then he, he mentioned, um, a quote from a recent study about treat, uh, detransitioning on a 98 % of the people who started their gender affirming medication treatment adolescents continue to use gender affirming hormones to follow up.

And I think the thing, the thing with that, you know, I, okay, a couple issues.

We're going to look at the science of this and say, well, look, here's a study that shows that very few of them want to D transition, go back to the, well,

I I'll put that up with like the studies that say that, you know, the majority of people who are dying from COVID are not vaccinated because they don't consider you vaccinated until two weeks after you get a vaccine.

And most of the harm is being occurred during those two weeks. So it's convenient to just not define it, to just redefine the terms.

And we call it science. It's like a vaccine that they had to redefine what a vaccine is because it doesn't fit the definition.

It doesn't prevent you from actually getting the disease, which is what a vaccine used to be defined as, but we redefine it.

So it's hard when we look at a science to go, oh, well, the science says when science is now political, and there's no way to deny that anymore.

That when, when you have, you know, the, the UN saying we are the science, you know, no, no scientists are not the science.

The science is the study that you do. And when you have people manipulating it, and we we've seen this for years and we see it in the, in the, you know, well, what was global warming and now climate change or extreme weather because we're in a cooling cycle and they can't justify the warming anymore.

So we're back to when I was a kid and we were going to, you know, die of an ice age and we need the government intervention.

And then we're going to warm up to where we're going to heat up and have no ice and we need government intervention. We're going to go into a cooling cycle.

And guess what, folks, I'll let you know right now, the result, government intervention, you see the same solution.

They didn't fix the last one. They didn't fix the one before, but don't worry, they can fix the next one.

I'm sure Biden will take credit for the cooling cycle. He'll say, see, see, it's all because of electric cars.

But because in 20, 20, 20, 23, 35, we'll all have electric cars.

That's why it's cooling now, because the the earth knows that electric cars are coming. I could picture

Biden saying that actually and taking credit for it, no less.

But but the reality is, you know, for those who knew what happened back within the

UK, when the where they had all the climate change data, they were hacked.

And in that hack, it was all made public. And when you read the emails, as I did, you end up realizing they were no longer acting like scientists.

They were acting like politicians because they were manipulating data, hiding data to and as the director said, to force the politicians to move on this because they weren't moving fast enough.

So they had to make the data fit a narrative they wanted to push it along. So when we look at the trend, the detransitioning, here's the stats you have to look at is the fact that the suicide rate increases for those who transition.

OK, they transition because they have no hope there. The fact that the the the number of people who are claiming they're transgender or by bisexual or homosexual has increased in the last decade, manifold numbers where it used to be a very small part of the population and it was growing.

It is now exponential in its growth because it is the popular thing to do in high school.

Peer pressure is causing it. And so a lot of people are thinking, well, this will make me happy. And they're not getting any happier because we've removed

God. There is no hope outside of Christ. So they have no hope in this and they're in the school system.

They're sitting there and in their despair, they think this is the answer. The guidance counselors are saying this is the answer.

Everyone's telling them they just you're a little funny. You act a little different. You must be the opposite gender. And they think this will make them happy.

And then in the end, they are not only are they no happier, they're even worse off because now they physically change their body for this euphoric feeling that never comes because now it's even worse because they're acting against their biology.

And that's a big reason why I think so many are trying to force everybody to accept them in that. So it's just a gross and obscene response to this whole idea that you're a teenager, you're still trying to feel comfortable in your own skin with, you know, growing and changing and wanting to fit in with with your peers.

And so if since it's become so popular to, you know, identify as something other than who you actually are, hey, if that's what's going to get them to fit in and feel comfortable and then they just and now we just see it being taken to an extreme with with devastating results that really can't be reversed to a large extent.

Yeah. And so we end up seeing, you know, Melissa here says, how can they know that it's global warming or global cooling or whatever?

Well, actually, we can know a lot of it is and this is one of the things when it comes to all this stuff.

One of the things they neglect in all the stuff that we see politically argued for it is the fact that when we look at the global warming movement, global climate change movement, their only focus is everything is human.

The fault of humans. What do they reject? Well, they reject things like solar flares, which is a big part of it.

They reject the magnetic force of the earth because the earth magnetic force flips and that's actually a big part of it.

And so in that flip of the magnetic force of the earth, as that changes it, the solar flares and the heat, the radiation we get from the sun changes.

And that's what gives us that cycle. So as it keeps reversing polarity, we end up having the effect of the solar flares coming to us.

That's a bigger thing than anything we do. I mean, the fact is we can't destroy this earth if we tried.

OK, we dropped two atomic bombs and that's that doesn't even compare to what one volcano can do.

And we have lots of volcanoes. And so Robert says

Black Black, Captain Black Eagle says climate crazies can't predict the weather in five days, but they can predict the climate in 50 years.

Sure, they can be. It's actually not 50 years, though. See, you got to understand it's always if you always notice, it's always 10 to 20 years away.

Now, remember, when Al Gore was in the White House, when he was vice president, he said this whole earth,

I mean, 10 years, we were going to it was unrepairable. 20 years, we're gone.

That was 30 years ago, I think. Like, you know, we're still here.

We haven't gone anywhere. You know, he was wrong. And so the reality is, is that, you know,

AOC is saying 10 years, 10 years, we're going to be wiped off if we don't do something right now. We were already supposed to be wiped off.

We're supposed to be gone. All right. Kathy's asking this question or making the same as say

Carl Jung's goal is to take people back to their animal selves. I don't know if either of you have a comment on that.

I know a little bit. Yeah, he kind of glorified the idea that man could like he was his truce.

This is again where the thesis antithesis comes in. I think like he observed the men in the wild who had no restrictions and no moral laws and stuff like that.

And they were free. But then he also wanted the amenities of society.

So he wanted if the wild man is once one side, the social, social capitalist man was the one side and to synthesize them together.

And I actually think we kind of see Marx or I don't know if it's

Carl Jung, but I can't remember who it was. I was study who takes on Carl Jung's psychological talking about man in the wild and mixes it with Marxist.

And then so there's a synthesis to try to bring them together to release all morals.

But in a technological society is basically what little

I've read about Carl Jung and the connections with that, because, yeah, there's just psychology and philosophy and Marxism is really there's a lot that they are connected so much.

It's in I didn't even know this just how psychology

Freud is a big one. So they're all intertwined someone and they feed off each other to build off new ideas.

Yeah. And keep themselves employed, because the more they screw up the next generation, the more counseling they get.

It's kind of like those with the transitioning. The medical field loves it because you've got to keep going back for this.

So Cole asked this, and this may be the last question we get to tonight. But he says, what is the deal with mothers bringing kids to drag shows?

How do these pedos get the in the feminine feminism game?

What are your thoughts with this whole? I mean, OK, so let's first find drag queen is men who dress overtly as the way no woman actually dresses.

I mean, way too much makeup, more makeup than any woman actually wears, big hair, you know, and whatnot.

I mean, if you've seen it, you understand and you go, oh, wow. Like, yeah, OK. And it used to be a thing where, look, this was always something in the in the homosexual community.

And but now it's becoming super popular in school, like for children, young children.

You have drag queen story hour, which is really popular in the libraries, by the way.

Oh, now I'm drawing a blank on which one of the Christian podcasts of the Christian podcast community said this.

Oh, I shoot myself for doing this because it was brilliant. I think it was

Nathaniel, Jolly and Eckie on Truth Be Known podcast, I think. But someone made the point that what we should be doing in these school systems where they're they're pushing the whole transgender.

Actually, it might not have been someone on the CPC. It might have been John Harris on Conversations to Think.

What's this matter? Yeah. I think he said it. But but the idea of anywhere where there's the the drag queen story hours in like the schools or libraries, go set up a

Bible reading Bible story, you know, hour because because they can't deny it.

They can't say no if they're letting the other in. And so just pay and make them promote that.

Right. But but that is puzzling. These parents, mostly mostly mothers that are bringing their kids to to people who are typically tied to, you know, homosexuality, to grooming children and things like that, like it's mind boggling.

I think it just has to do with with this whole idea that we see in the culture of inclusiveness and tolerance, not tolerance to Christians, but.

No, that's the one group that you don't have to show tolerance to. No, exactly. But, you know, if you raise these kids that they can see that, oh, these people are harmless and, you know, they look fun and colorful and, you know, and they're reading us stories and, you know, how can how can this be bad?

Yeah. Starting them young. And I think it's also the peer pressure even for adults. Because go ahead.

I was going to say, it's very interesting that there are women who are bringing the men. I think there is a connection with the empathy and like Amy said, trying to raise kids up to be open minded.

But I do know that there's an underlying belief among the more modern feminists, especially those who adhere to the the open genders and even push more lesbian, avoid the patriarchy.

There is and we saw this in the book that we read that this belief that sex will free you and it will not only free you, it will free society.

It will when you are free to go ahead and act in any way sexually, you are no longer repressed.

And so you will somehow it will keep you from sinning and being angry and lashing out.

And the patriarchy will end because, you know, everybody's free to act out in sexual manner.

And so if you truly believe that and it's becoming more and more popular. I was looking into Paulo Freire and some of his teachings on what he believed about sex.

And the sooner you can get kids to open up, be free in their sexuality and identify through it, there's this belief then it will open up to utopia.

So it's getting the young generation to already start to be free.

And I think as part of it, being able exposing them to the gay rallies and all this stuff, and it's women who are doing it, because in my opinion, this is a very women centered movement.

Our society has become feminized by feelings.

It's now what in the 1700s, this is fascinating.

I know I'm going off a little tangent here, but they were fighting what was called the cult of sensibility.

Have you ever read Jane Austen and her writing Sense and Sensibility? There was actually so many similarities between what we see in our culture today and similar back then.

They were fighting against a feminine society, a society that would cry over the killing or the death of a bird and yet take the life of a king.

We see that in the Jacobean revolt. And so it's just fascinating. We saw this in the

Black Lives Matter. They're all fighting for the weak people, those who can't speak for themselves.

And it's bringing up these emotions, yet they're willing to kill or damage property for that setting the people free.

It's a double standard. So I was getting to where it's that same just being able to freely, not just sexually, but everything is gone.

No set of standards. What I want is what I'm going to get, and I'm going to do whatever

I can to get it. That's basically what it is. But it fits in with the Marxism, right?

Because then when you remove all standards, there's no standard. So we can now make up the standard and we can control you with that standard.

And that's what ends up happening. And that's why you see the liberalism goes towards the government has to be controlled.

The one who tells us what the laws are and the government is a savior.

Yeah. Which is highly ironic because this whole idea that I'm free,

I should be able to do what I want, when I want, with whomever I want, in whatever form or fashion.

But yet you want a government that dictates. I don't want to get off on a tangent on that, but even just during the

COVID thing, and all these people, my body, my choice, and yet you were letting the governments dictate where you could go and what was closed, what was open, wearing a mask, all of that stuff.

How do you be liberal and accept that? And that you had to be injected with some experimental drug that your body had to be injected.

It wasn't your choice whether to get that. It was being enforced by the government. Exactly. Melissa says here, this has been a great show.

I appreciate both these ladies coming on. Great job, ladies. So Melissa, I'll encourage you to listen to Thoroughly Equipped Podcast.

It is a podcast for ladies. Very good. Also, okay, listen to Grace and Peace Radio, but just listen for Amy.

Try to tune out the jokes that you may hear. I'm just saying. I like the jokes.

You heard the recent one about the French toast? Yes, that's my name. I will take it.

I now identify as French toast. Folks, if you missed that, you're going to have to go listen to Grace and Peace Radio.

And you're going to just have to, I'm just going to send you there. You'll have to listen. And you'll figure it out.

But I do enjoy having you ladies on. I'm going to give you guys a chance to give any last minute things, anything you want to continue to say, any points that you think we missed already.

But Amy, I'll start with you. Anything that you want, or maybe you want to share what's going on with your podcast or what you guys are going to talk about?

Well, as far as what we've been talking about here, I just want to encourage women that become knowledgeable of what history has done and be very discerning, which is why

I really do love Melba's podcast, because it really does, the stuff is so subtle.

And, you know, I can't say this enough. Anthony, I say this on our podcast all the time, read your scripture, read your

Bible, read and reread and read through the whole thing and then start over again, because it's not until you do all of that that you can really get this, you know, get this discernment.

So, yeah, that would be my encouragement. And as far as our podcast, you know, we've been a little up and down.

Ant's working on his MBA, so that's been taking up a lot of time, but God willing, he'll be done with that in March.

But we're still going to try to... we missed it. We just did our most recent episode and realized we really missed it.

He's going to be done in March. He's going to be done in March. Okay. How soon did he start his MBA after he got his theological degree, his

Master's in Theology? One year. Really? You really think he's done with this education thing?

Actually, I think maybe this time he is. I think he's had enough. Nothing else.

He's kind of done with higher education and profs. Okay, so like in MDiv, at least, was good.

He enjoyed the study of it. You know, comes to MBA and it was just too much, huh?

Well, he really enjoys the topics. It's just, you know, there's a whole other topic of professors and their ivory towers.

So, not understanding the real world. So, I get that. Well, let me just ask before I go.

Well, first off, I should ask, well, I'll ask what Cole's question is first. He said, what's the book that you guys mentioned?

It was the one that you guys read and referred to on the show. So, Radical Womanhood.

Radical Womanhood, Feminine Faith in a Feminist World. Carolyn McCulley. And it was written in 2008, but it is just as pertinent now as it was then, if not more so.

So, that's why Melba and I recommend it. Anyway, what did you have to say? Well, I was going to,

I have to say this first, is you keep referring to Melba. And so, we have to now, you know, most people in your podcast know this.

I tend to go back and forth. So, sorry about that. Yeah, no, no, no. Because now, see, now the thing is, now they have to go listen to Grace and Peace radio to know, you know, the joke of Melba Toss.

But you were pointing in the background to someone that says Melba Toss. But I'll let you explain Melba Toss and then give you the floor.

So, encouragement for women. Yeah, absolutely. Be in the word.

Just, I would definitely encourage women to have discernment. And to have discernment, you have to be very much rooted in the word.

And studying it and reading it in context. Don't just cherry pick it.

I get that our schedules are overloaded because we're women.

But it's needed. And to just kind of, yeah, go ahead and read the book.

And think about where feminism has affected you and how especially it has affected your service in the home, the way it's made you think about your home and your contribution as a mother and a wife, and even if you're not a mother out in the world.

And definitely let it challenge you in submission. So, yeah, that's pretty much it.

I just keep keeping on and praying and trusting in the Lord, and He will sanctify you.

Okay, so Peter the Missionary Gamer asked this last question. He's saying, I really appreciate the conversation.

Thank you. Before you go, any advice on how to get my wife to call me Lord like Sarah did for Abraham?

Now, he says joking, and then he made this mistake. He said, so glad my wife is here right now.

Well, Peter, I got news for you. It's now recorded. And I need you out of your way to be in your home in just a few weeks.

And so I'll make sure your wife knows about this, but I will help you, Peter. I'll help you to understand, for your wife to understand,

I will help. I will, first off, I will come to your house next time, and I will instruct her on some jujitsu so that she can properly choke you on conscience when you make comments like this.

But I'll make sure she gets to see this. I'll make sure that while you're trying to say, oh, we'll go into a game and evangelize

I'll make sure she's sitting and my wife will just make sure she sees this.

And he's saying he just doxed me. Wow, what a host. I didn't give your address away at all.

I didn't even say what state. I'm going to be in three states in three weeks. So it could be any of them.

And so, hey, not my fault. But the reality is, you know, you want your wife to call you,

Lord. You know, maybe, maybe you should just love her like Christ loves the church. I'm just saying you ever give that a try.

Maybe that would help a little. I'll definitely call my husband,

Lord. If he does, you know, whenever he does that, I have no problem. My wife, let me pull this out.

Since my wife can officially calls me Lord because this document says so.

I am Lord Andrew Rappaport and she is a lady. We are officially

Lords and ladies of Scotland. And therefore, you know, Peter, when

I get to you, I expect you to call me Lord when I'm there. I'm just saying, just saying. But so, yeah,

I'm sure that we could figure something. I mean, actually, what we could do, Peter, in your specific case, if you'd like,

I will help your wife and I will work with her to make sure a man named

Thomas takes you out for an ATV ride. And he knows and Peter, you know exactly what that means.

Thomas was the one that tried to kill me at Peter's church. By taking me on an

ATV ride, I did survive. I'm harder to kill than he thought. So I survived.

Can I say something to Missionary Gamer 2? Sure. My son follows him, so keep doing what you're doing.

So I guess this is not saying to what you said, but he said, I will never be heard from again. Yeah, the ride with Thomas, that may be easier to kill off,

I think. So here we go.

So Cole says, Andrew only owns one parcel of land in Scotland because of the no true

Scotsman fallacy. I can say I'm a true Scotsman because I own property in Scotland.

So Missionary Gamer says, oh, that was so kind.

Thank you for the encouragement. That was kind. Unlike the host.

I empathize with you. I can't wait to be back with Peter. So let me just close up with one thing that Melissa Ponsor Christ asked.

Did Andrew clear up what I said about Hunter? So she was talking, when I read it and said

Peter being in church, she was actually talking about this guy Hunter that she sent to Peter to get into a good church.

So yes, I hope that that clarified things. And so with that, let me just close out and say,

I want to thank you two for coming on. I think this was informative for a lot of folks. For a lot of people, this was probably new information.

This is something they hadn't heard before. But I think this is helpful in explaining what we see in the culture.

Because as I listened to the podcast that you guys were on, which is why I wanted to have you on here, is because of the fact that there is the consistency that we're seeing in it, where the first wave to second wave to third wave, it's just this progression of still needing to get more attention on self and trying to avoid

God and run away from God as much as we can and the accountability therein, and going from things like biology to psychology to nonsense.

I mean, now we're completely throwing everything out the window. And yet they feel like they're on the moral high ground to do so, which is very puzzling.

And so with all of that, you know, this is the thing, you're backstage, you might find a dinosaur or whatever that is suddenly show up on camera.

I've got a creeper on my camera. I got a lizard on my back. So we used to have

John who would come in and we would throw him on camera as he would feed his chickens. And people are always asking for chicken man to come back.

So now Cole will be, well, if he's not sleeping man, he's going to be lizard man. So there you go.

Is that the gentleman that comes in with different names that are so funny? John is the one who always comes in with different names.

He usually comes in with a name that's specific to him. So as far as he didn't come in with some name, like, you know, the unslaved feminist or something, you know.

But yeah, I do want to thank you both for coming on. I think this is very educational, very helpful for folks.

And, you know, I encourage folks, you know, let's get the feedback. Let's hear what you have to say.

You know, I know that I love the feedback. I mean, I got a lot of feedback from last week's show.

Just a lot of people that were commenting about Matt and I and our ability to disagree with having such respect for one another.

And I mean, you know, the issue, as you saw last week of spiritual gifts is something that he gets very emotional about.

And so it is hard for him to debate these things and discuss these things. And so it's hard.

But this is one of the reasons we do this show, folks, is to demonstrate not only to teach apologetics, to teach how to do apologetics, why we do what we do in apologetics, to teach you things of the culture, to how to answer things, but also put on display how we should do these things.

You see this when we have Dan Cardinal come in. We're going to respect someone in, even if we disagree with them, and let them have their word.

We had it when Anthony and he went back and forth on the genetics of what is a woman. We're going to do that here.

Why? Because you should do that when you're engaged with people that you're speaking with. You should give them the chance to voice what they believe.

Because even if you run across someone that says, I'm a feminist, I hope you now realize you have to ask, what branch?

Are you first wave, second wave, third wave, fourth wave? Are you within the fourth wave?

Are you the ones in the Black Lives Matter wave? Are you the lesbian wave, the pro -pornography, the anti -pornography?

Saying I'm a feminist is not descriptive anymore. So I hope this show helps you to see that, and to see that we need to engage with the culture more and more, but we need to engage from the standpoint of what

God has said. We start from the standpoint that God exists.

He has spoken. And that is what we have. We start, folks, with the ability.

This is the amazing thing. In any conversation that you get into with any unbeliever, there's things you already know getting into the conversation where you win.

When they say that they're a feminist, that they believe that atheism, there's no such thing as God, you can start with what

God has said about that person. Romans 1, that they already know God exists. They know he exists.

They're just suppressing that truth in unrighteousness. And the outcome of that suppression of truth in unrighteousness is exactly what we see in our culture today.

Not just the rampant homosexuality, but the worship of God's creation rather than the creator.

We see that in a bigger way today than any other time in history where people worship the earth with all the climate change and ignore

God. So Romans 1 is right there in front of anybody. The fact that every single person you speak to knows they're a sinner, they know they've broken

God's law, they've lied, they've stolen, they've cheated, they've coveted. You could go through the commandments and they know they've broken those laws.

It's that guilty conscience that they have. So we start with that, folks.

So my encouragement to you is take what you learned tonight and when you get into the culture, use that to say, look, whoever you're speaking to, you know you've broken

God's law. You are a sinner in God's sight. You are a criminal in God's sight. But God came to earth and made a way of escape that you could be set free.

God, Jesus Christ, came to earth, paid the fine so that you, in your wickedness, could be seen in the righteousness of God.

That the holy, the infinitely holy God came to earth and suffer the consequence that you and I owe.

He took that on himself so that we could become his righteousness. That is what we talk about when we say, as we said throughout the show, having an identity in Christ.

If you don't know Christ and you're trying to figure out your identity, the way you find your identity is in your creator because he created you and gave you that identity.

And so it's when we're in Christ, when we stop trusting ourself as a good person or good works, turn and trust what

Jesus Christ, God Almighty, did on that cross when he died and paid the punishment we owe, was buried in the ground.

And three days later, he rose himself from the dead to vindicate what he said about himself, that he not only is

God, but that he died for sin and made a way of escape for you. Turn from trusting self, trust in Jesus, have eternal life and find your identity in Christ.

Because that's where we get our identity from. Ladies, thank you for coming on.

I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. I hope that you guys were able to see all the comments and the people who've been thanking you with everything.

One last one for Melissa. She's saying, although for some reason it's frozen. Yeah, your picture.

Yeah, I froze. But she says, thanks, ladies and all who showed up. So with that,

I'm going to thank you. I don't even know with this being frozen if I can close out the show. This may just keep streaming, who knows?

Oh, maybe we're on, Amy. I was going to say, it's just us now. We're going to do our own show now.

Yeah, really. Funny. I don't know.

Bye, everybody. I say, bye. Do I get off? Yeah. I guess you can, because I think on the bottom, it's got a little

X that says, leave studio. So I guess we could just leave. All right. All right.

Good night. Good night. As always, I love you.