Chuck's Discuss with Godless Grandma

But what I have a more serious problem with are the young earthers that want us to deny what we know from science and as a result. They want us to ignore scientists when they tell us things like take a vaccine for the pandemic.

The science supported not getting the vaccine over six minutes later. We heard her say this. Now you don't want to even talk so, you know.

It's because you've brought up a topic that I was not prepared for. If I had known that this was going to be the topic I would have brought facts and figures with me. But I did not know that this topic would come up and so I did not bring any facts and figures with me and I'm Not prepared to defend that position, but you brought these topics up.

I didn't. Well, okay. You're right. I did.

Apologetics Live Introduction and the Godless Grandma Discussion

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It's the duck icon. Join us ask us your most challenging question. Just remember. I don't know is a perfectly good answer. I didn't say it'd be a satisfying answer for you. We are glad to be back. I am Andrew Rappaport the host president or director of striving for eternity ministries and also the Christian podcast community of which this Livestream becomes a podcast and we get to air it there tonight.

We're gonna be talking about a well Chuck. He's a regular here With us. He comes in often and watches but Chuck Carpenter was on the godless grandma YouTube channel. If you remember back some time ago We had godless grandma on here and you actually got to hear her there in the beginning where?

She was telling me how she wasn't prepared to bring up a topic that She brought up that's right. That was how the conversation ended. I don't think it went well for her she Got to a point where she just completely shut down.

We'll discuss that a bit tonight. But I'm going to. I want to bring Chuck in Chuck. Welcome to apologetics live. Hey, thank you Andrew.

I'm very honored to be here tonight.

So you you heard did you know about godless grandma before she came on this show or was that the first you heard about the first?

Time I heard of her right and which is sort of surprising because I'm I'm pretty tuned in to you know. The atheists that are out there.

So yeah, I was kind of surprised. Well, I and I'm gonna remove the banner so we everyone could see your Twitter. Your Twitter handle is atheist nightmares.

I do have a lot of fun with it but you know over the past like year or two I've seen that you know the content coming from the atheists has dwindled quite a Bit and I kind of think that quite a few of them are gonna.

I've seen a couple of them saying that they're there. They're leaving Twitter, you know after the election, so.

Yeah, it's it's sad that you know. After after the 2020 election, they kicked us off at Twitter. People set up there a replacement Twitter and that got shut down. Just because of telling the truth because I mean the things that they got the conspiracy theories.

That they supposedly did. Turns out it wasn't conspiracy it actually Came out to be true. And then they said oh. And as I'm referring to parlay parlay was they were like, oh parlay was used to to create an insurrection on January 6th.

And yet most of the people were communicating through Facebook and Twitter. But those groups were shut down on Facebook and Twitter. So yeah, it's just a walk down memory lane. But yeah, it's it's amazing how they just can't you know, I just wish one thing Chuck seriously.

For all of the the celebrities who promised us they would leave this country. If if Trump got elected. Leave, please leave. Stop making this promise every year and not do it. I mean every year a Republican wins.

They don't leave in fact violation of the ninth commandment.

Do you know I'm gonna test you. I give you a pop quiz here. Chuck, do you know how many Republicans? since Barry Goldwater. Were called Hitler. How many Republicans ran for president? They were referred to Hitler since Barry Goldwater.

Oh all of them. Nope, all except George H Bush. Oh Yeah. Liberal of them. Yeah, right. But yeah, they were everyone. So when they say Trump is Hitler, what else is new? Do you have anything else? Oh. But it is a refreshing day for those of us who like freedom.

True democracy. We're not look we're not kicking anyone off or even encouraging anyone to be kicked off at Twitter, you know. We're not we're not. We're not asking for censorship, but they're upset with you know with You know musk because he actually cared about free speech enough to put his money where his mouth is.

I.

Mean, yeah, and and you know, we as Christians it seems that we begin of being given a four-year reprieve. Of freedom of speech to go out and take the gospel to a lost and dying world. That's the way I see it.

Hmm now I'm trying to figure this one. Andy from down under. Andrew said sorry, I mean say Andy. Andrew says Trump was labeled Hitler by a German born woman who is once my doctor. I'm curious who that is Andrew.

But I do find it interesting that you know one of the people that has been supportive of calling everyone Hitler and who funded a lot of that is a Jewish born Nazi. Yeah, his name is George Soros. George Soros is was Jewish As far as the religion, but his family were supporters and members of the Nazi Party so one of the few Jewish Survivors of Germany there.

So just a tad bit of history and that's who affects most of our elections. Okay, so he just says her name was Karen Cochran, so I don't know who that is but. So, all right, so let's get into godless grandma I.

I did grab just you know. When drew and I are here and we take some video that we're gonna clip. We we try to do like a 20 minute video and we never get through it. So I figure I got it like it is five less than five and a half minutes.

So I think we can make it through. I have planned. But I first wanted to ask you so, how did it come about that? You got on to Kelly's program? And. And how did that how did that come about?

Okay, so if you'll remember I was a guest on your talk with her You know came in and got to ask her a couple of questions and then after the after that show I I Found her contact info and I contact her and I said, hey, you know I'm the one that was on there as well.

And you know, would you like me to come on and You know have a discussion and she asked well, what do you want to talk about? And I said, well I'm really interested in learning why. Why people reject Christianity become atheists?

She goes. Yeah. Well, I can do that and and so so then we set it up for a few weeks later, but I would come on and And yeah, that's how it happened. That's the first time I've ever done anything like that like an online Verbal dialogue slash informal debate.

So I was a little rough. I'm sure and I've come back and you know watched it a couple of times and thinking well I could have answered that better and and but overall I think I stepped away feeling, you know, I did pretty good.

No matter how many times you do it you're gonna walk away going. I could have done this better I could have done that better. I mean it for folks who don't know it, especially if it's a formal debate.

It's hard. It's not easy to to because we have formal debate. You have a fixed amount of time and Especially when you have like, okay, you got two minutes to answer a question and They ask you this really wide open-ended question.

You know, I mean folks try that sometimes just try to do a two-minute answer I I have if you go back, I haven't been recording them recently, but I have my Andrew rap reports daily rap report and It was to every it's fixed two minutes.

But with the intro outro, I have like a minute 47 seconds something like that and yet I'm going through topics and answering apologetic questions or giving the history of we did one series went through all the kings of Or all the judges I should say I think we did Or and we did the Kings and we did go, you know, we went through Every like giving an overview of every book of the Bible in a minute 47 seconds that is really hard to do to be that concise and When you're when you're being asked it live and when I'm doing that the reason I stopped doing that one and not my my weekly rap report is because that Two minute five day a week.

Which is only ten minutes of air time Takes me longer to prepare for than a one-hour weekly show where I don't have to have everything scripted right because a minute and 47 seconds is like You gotta have it so scripted so you know exactly what you're gonna say and then you got her if you get it wrong.

It's like well, let's redo it. It's only a minute 47 seconds. And and so that's really hard to do so when you're in a debate and you're asked a question and you don't know what the question is gonna be and It's usually some very open-ended question two minutes.

Go ahead answer. That's not easy. So I say that to say when you when you're like, I could have done better Don't feel bad that I mean all of us have that when we listen to how we we engage with things like this I mean, I if I go back and listen to when Kelly was on here.

I would there's a whole lot of things I'd probably well, I know for a fact I would answer differently I just don't remember what they would be now, but That's the reality is so yeah, that's that's expected.

So let's talk about How that went before we get into how you know want to talk about some of when she was on our show You did something different on there. You went on to her program Really to interview her to ask her about her.

You know conversion D conversion story what story why did you want to focus there?

I wanted to do that because it it plays in to the the way that I approach apologetics with unbelievers, especially atheists because I know what they're gonna do eventually is criticize scripture and. My approach is is is I'm sure you remember my favorite Martian and there's two antenna would come up.

And so my two antenna are coming up. I'm listening for two topics, right either. There's they're gonna be talking about logical fallacies in the Bible, but they're gonna talk about morality. Right, and and once they do that I'm gonna attack that and and and demolish their worldview because they have no grounding for either of those two topics.

To be universal or authoritative. Right and and so and I was to be honest I was kind of surprised that she Said yeah, I can do that and she probably didn't know what I was gonna do with that. But it played perfectly into what I wanted to do.

Yeah, you know, we didn't get to it when she was on and you and I talked about this when she came on to onto this program we Did not get to where I wanted to get to. I asked her to share a little bit about herself how she claimed She was a Christian and her deconversion.

What I wanted to get to there is part of what she has in her public reference to herself. Her bio is that she's the parent of a trans child and One of the questions I really wanted to ask is you know, did she? Denounce her faith before or after Her child came out trans.

I I'm curious genuinely curious how much that influenced her decisions to reject Christianity. You know whether it was you out of a love for her child that that that you know wanting to Encourage or I'm trying to think of a good word, but but encourage her child and and Trying to think of what the right word would be.

I want to say satisfied him or supporting but yeah, I mean To even I don't know justify that's not really the right word, but yeah, you know what I'm saying? It's like to support support her child.

Yeah, and it's a great question because I also want to know. You know, where is her husband? Is he in the picture or has he passed away or I don't know. I wanted to ask where he was whether he was a.

Professed to be a believer or not still like and if he's not in the picture when did you know, is it he walked out? Or did she walk out on him? Like there's there's a lot of questions there that I'd be curious of.

But we never got to get there and we really I mean the purpose of it was she was criticizing Layton flowers. She thinks the gotcha for Christianity is That somehow Christianity can't answer God's you know sovereignty with human responsibility and we never really got there because as I I tried to explain it she actually just kind of distracted and I tried twice or three times to get back to the the main thing to answer and she Just went in a different direction each time and I don't know if it's purposeful.

I don't want to I don't want to. You know assign a motive. You know, but that would be something I you know, I and folks I did invite her I did let her know although I will admit I let her know today.

So it was last minute. That was my fault. I've just had a really really busy few weeks and I forgot this was coming up in Enough time to notify her but I did notify her that we're doing this and that maybe she'll she'll end up listening and responding.

But she's always welcome as anyone anyone is always welcome to come in and and talk about anything on this show. So she's always welcome to come in and we can we could discuss it. So you know, I think though that I genuinely felt I never got to answering the main thing, but I think the issue of God sovereignty human responsibility.

She sees it as a gotcha because she thinks it's a mutually exclusive thing. Like there's got to be only one or the other. Yeah, Paul's dichotomy. Yeah, and and so her argument. It seems to be as I heard her on the the show where she's criticizing Leighton is, you know as Leighton is against Calvinism.

She's pointing out the the fallacies that Leighton's arguing because you know. You're you're denying that goddess says he's sovereign but then her argument is well man is is sovereign essentially man is is.

You know the there is no God because of free will and and yet. She hasn't really thought that through and I think because. When you think about what she argues, it's it's really as God sovereign or we sovereign.

Well, of course, she denies the faith. She thinks she's sovereign. Right because that was a big part of her testimony that yeah be.

To be a bit less sophisticated of an atheist then and most of them that I've run across. Of course, I didn't know much about her, you know before I Had my interaction with her and she said she was kind of slippery you know, she hadn't thought much about the the law of non-contradiction and and you know, she kept you know in my in my talk with her, you know, there were some things that she had said she hadn't thought about.

And and so that made actually made it a little bit more difficult for me.

Yeah, I I will admit I heard about her because I had Someone who sent a video with Leighton flowers. Her responding and they said you you really should react to this video and instead of reacting to the video I just figured I'll reach out to her and have her on.

Why react to a video when you could talk to the source? So that's what I what I look to do. I knew that she was part of the atheist and Christian book club and a Friend of mine bill who's the the atheist founder of that?

There's an atheist and Christian founder if you go back in past episodes of Apologetics live actually the week I think it was a week or two before godless grandma was on bill was on and Bill spoke very highly of her.

She's very educated. She is an attorney. You know, he really he really spoke well of her so I was actually like you expecting much more intelligent and better arguments. I Was actually kind of surprised as an attorney now granted.

She's trained as an attorney, but does contracts so there's a difference. People think of an attorney and they think of them going into court and arguing cases and that is different than the attorney who is writing contracts.

Because when you're when you're working on a contract It is like we were just talking earlier about debating and the debates. Well when you go into court, that's more of like the debate. Yeah, you you have to be quick.

You got to think real time. You've got to respond to things and so When he told me she was an attorney that I was expecting someone like in a courtroom. She's quick on her feet. She's gonna be ready for argument.

She's gonna recognize Fallacies she's gonna, you know, call me out if I say something wrong. That's what I was expecting. Instead I saw someone who Quoted a lot of sources that she didn't seem to actually engage with.

Well, like I mean she kept bringing up Bart Ehrman and It was interesting because I've actually studied Bart Ehrman. I've read a lot of his books, you know I I do textual criticism. I look at this stuff.

She doesn't do that. And and what she does is every time she's cornered. She would just say, you know that she's not an expert on it. It was a way out for her. We'll get to a clip on that Later but you know, she just she says, you know.

Well, the this person says this person says so she's she's not an expert on it. But what she'll do is talk as if she is Until challenged now. I I did find it refreshing. I mean she was I think honest like when she doesn't know something she doesn't play games.

She says it now she caught herself in the clip. We played in the beginning. Where I'm like, but but Kelly you brought up the kovat and she's like I didn't know you're right I did. Yeah. So she caught herself.

Yeah, yeah, that is very commendable. I mean I appreciated that I was I was surprised how our show ended but yeah. But we'll get to that more toward the top of the hour. So so let's so how do you think?

Your discussion with her went. What do you think? She What do you think she presented well, and what do you think that she presented poorly.

Let's see, so first how did it go. I think it pretty went pretty well cuz cuz my my objective is number one to To sort of attack the the other person's worldview and it's and their authority. Right and then to try to get to the law and gospel and so I think I did a pretty good job of demolishing the stronghold of her.

Of her atheism and you know I kept saying that the the logical conclusion of your atheism Is that you and I are nothing more than flashbacks of chemicals reacting to stimuli. Well, I don't believe that I'm like.

Well, it doesn't matter what you say you believe that's the log logical conclusion. And what she's doing is she's suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. She wants to have her cake and then eat it too, right?

So I in my opinion, I think I did a pretty good job at that. But you know, what did she do? Well her probably her strongest suit was Attacking the sovereignty of God I would think and it and her coming up with the topic of Talking about when she was studying history and she was saying that history doesn't confirm the Bible concerning the flood and then Civilizations coming back a hundred years or so later and rebuilding.

She's saying that you know, none of the modern history that we know of. Teaches that and I wasn't propelled prepared well enough for that and if I were to do that today I would say well, first of all, we have the testimony of Scripture, right?

And and so that's you're gonna have to just prove Scripture first. But secondly, we also have all the all the various Worldwide flood stories from all the different cultures that you know. Yeah, they're varying in what they say, but they're all coalesce around the topic of a worldwide flood.

And so I think the worldwide flood is outside of Scripture very well attested to.

Attacking the Worldview and Demolishing Strongholds

Yeah, so so let's dig into that a bit so folks can understand why you do what you do and and how you do it. Why do you attack their worldview. Why that approach. Because so folks understand how you do apologetics, right?

Yeah.

So, yeah, I'm working on a system that I like to call simplified apologetics or easy apologetics because a lot of times the topic of apologetics for When I say like the layman Christian or everyday Christian, I don't want to say that there's super Christians out there.

But there are Christians out there that maybe just simply don't have the time to study apologetics and that topic can be Overwhelming when you're looking at it, you know creation science philosophy the history.

You know all that can just be overwhelming so I'm looking for a way to simplify all this for the for the Christian who maybe wants to have one conversation with an unbeliever and then Know understand or hope that they've they've done what they've been called to do and then hand it off to a more experienced Christian for further discussion discussion, right and so yeah, I do want to Demolish their stronghold and we see here 2nd Corinthians 10 4 through 5 the weapons We fight with and not the weapons of the world on the contrary.

They have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every Pretention that sets itself against the knowledge of God, right? And so that's the first thing I want to do and especially when it comes to Atheists, they are like monkeys trying to live some submerged into the swamp waters of materialism and eventually they do have to come up to breathe air to breathe God's air and Whenever they appeal to logic or they appeal to morality.

They're breathing God's air and what I'm going to do is when they poke their head out of the water I'm gonna put my hand on their head and push them back down into it and challenge their their grounding for either of those for morality or logic to be Universal unchanging and authoritative and so that's what I'm gonna do first.

I'm going to attack their their their Worldview and its authority and secondly, I'm I want to get I want to put the fear of God in them. That's something we don't hear about. Hardly enough these days within the Christian circles, especially when it comes to evangelism.

It's it's almost a taboo topic, but I can read a bunch of verses here about in the fear of the Lord's the beginning of knowledge and beginning wisdom and our chief in is to fear God and But we don't hear it and when we see what happens out in the world outside of our church walls I can harken back to the the Olympic opening ceremonies and you know The blasphemy that they did that these people do not fear God and and why is this I put the onus squarely on the church and I like to quote your good friend Matt slick is because We are we have been presenting the world with a blonde haired blue-eyed Caucasian surfer Jesus wearing a women's nightrobe Tapping on the door of a person's heart asking permission to come in.

Right and that is not the Jesus Scripture. And so they do not fear God. So yeah. Secondly, I want to put the fear of God in them by talking about sin judgment righteousness and taking them through the moral law.

The Authority of God Versus Human Autonomy

Yeah, I mean that's thing. I love about precept is that it's simple. You don't have to know a lot. You just know scripture. So you have it. We have a challenge here. I've been trying to keep some questions going but there's a challenge here from Someone mighty Sarlacc.

I'm not sure what that is referring to. I'm sure it's something pop culture that I don't get but Uh, they say why attack someone else's worldview. How about defending your own worldview.

Right because we understand a person's worldview has a hold on them and If their worldview is not based on the 66 books of the Old and New Testament scriptures That worldview is going to result in logical absurdity and or evil and it is going to result in that person If they die in their sins are gonna go to hell and so yeah I'm definitely for defending my worldview as well.

And so when you're having a discussion it is a back-and-forth, but I'm gonna start out attacking the worldview.

And I would answer it this way. Um. It's not so much. It's not that our worldview needs to be defended because they already know it's true. They're the one coming up with a worldview that They want to demand we have to start with the fact that God doesn't exist and then prove he does exist.

But to do that To to argue for anything to make an argument requires immaterial things like an ability to reason laws of logic knowledge truth. Morality these things can't exist without God. So what they the reality is they want to argue for an absurdity.

They want us to start from their position and argue for something. They already know to be true. It has to be true. Otherwise their their reasoning makes no sense period. So it's an issue where you know the Defending of our of our faith our worldview.

It's not that we have to defend it it's it's what they already know.

And so are you talking about the worldview our worldview that God exists or specifically well the Christian worldview.

Well, I would say they're both in the same mean the the Christian worldview is, you know, the God exist the God of the Bible. Everyone knows according Romans 1 the God of the Bible not the Catholic God not the Mormon God not the Jehovah Witness God.

Not the Muslim God. It's the God of the Bible the one that actually exists that they're suppressing an unrighteousness.

Presuppositionalism, the Law of Non-Contradiction, and the Limitations of Atheism

Yeah, I'm with you I'm. But I'm sort of a little bit different and so in studying the way of the master living waters you learn that that a person has a conscience they have an internal sense of right and wrong and.

But our conscience our heart but can become seared which means it's hard on the outside. But it's still tender on the inside and using the moral law. What you're doing is you're penetrating that and and making that conscience come alive.

So I take that philosophy and and Apply it. Also. I'm not trying to prove God exists, but I'm that you know. They're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. And so that truth has sort of become seared as well.

And so. Yeah, I'm a presuppositionalist. I'm not a hundred percent. I've been following your series on the different methods of apologetics. And and so I would say I'm mostly Presupp but I'm okay with some of the evidential stuff because I think I'm not trying to prove God exists.

I'm trying to awaken that internal knowledge that they know that God exists that they've been suppressing.

Yeah, that cumulative one was kind of interesting because it just kind of accepts all of them. Calculus man says. It's it's at both end to show the inconsistency of the unbiblical worldview while pointing back to the biblical one.

And he also pointed out that the name has something to do with Star Wars. So there you go. I was right. So. So the mighty Surlac says no. It's from Return of the Jedi. Is that a Star Wars reference? I guess that's pop culture from a long time ago.

So, okay. But he did say this. He said yes, it's absolutely needs to be defended. Otherwise, it's just an assertion without justification. Now hold that because his next thing he said was this. Why don't you hold to your presuppositions that the Bible is true so that it that doesn't apply to us atheists.

Let's go back to what he said just before that. Yes, it is absolutely needs to be defended otherwise, it's just an assertion without justification and. Then after that, he told us that he doesn't he basically we have to prove our point because it doesn't apply to Him as an atheist.

Well, it'd be very simple mighty sir. Let's relax and if you come in here I'd be happy to to discuss it with you, but it'd be real simple if you want to argue there is no God. I want you to argue not using any immaterial things like truth knowledge laws of logic.

Morality or your ability to reason and if you could do that, I'd be impressed. But once you make an argument, you're no longer in your worldview because you are not a bag of chemical reactions. So you're you don't even you can't live in your worldview it's it's the absurdity and.

And then you want us to have to justify something that has to be the fact. Why would we have to justify an axiom? God's existence is required for you to have an ability to reason and. And I think this is what Chuck you did on on Godless grandma's show was to show that.

She you were putting her in a position where she had to try to argue from her worldview and. What really what I saw you do is kind of pinpoint her down to that. She wasn't so clear in her thinking of her own worldview let alone to address ours.

Yeah, and and my favorite actually my favorite part of that whole interview was when I was asking her Well, what are you and she ended up saying? I don't know what I am. Yeah, and that that plays into you know, when I'm asked when I'm asked like how How to prove that the Bible is true, I'm not trying to prove the Bible is true.

It's just an opening salvo to open up, you know. Get someone thinking. I'll say that any religion or worldview not based on the 66 books of the Old and New Testament results in logical absurdity and or evil and just as we saw in Sarlacc here.

He's he's logically he's being logically absurd. He he he can't see it.

Self-Deception, False Conversion, and Why Kelly Shut Down

Yeah, so I think When when when Kelly was on here, I I I Think she was being honest when she said, I don't know I don't know, but when I watched your interview with her because you were actually interviewing her.

I Almost wonder and and I'm not saying this is the case because it'd be judging her motives, you know I so I don't know for sure, but it seemed like She was using the I don't know to get out of answering things.

It seemed that way it You know, it could be wrong. And mighty sir lacks if I'd love for you to come in so we could actually dialogue. It'd be a lot easier, but he says that's begging the question when you don't have to justify something that has to be a fact.

It's called an axiom. You could go look up that word an axiom an axiom is something you can't prove. Because it is a fact but if you really believe this I'm just gonna go back to what you first said and say, why don't you have to prove your worldview of atheism?

Because my guess is he's gonna go. I don't have to prove atheism because it's a lack of belief. That's begging the question. Prove you lack the belief because a belief is immaterial and needs an immaterial source.

So you need to prove that immaterial things can exist without a God Would be kind of hard to do because you got to show chemical reactions can produce the immaterial so. So he's saying that I didn't beg the question, which is a logical fallacy.

I agree that begging the question is a logical fallacy but You know, come on in and we'll see whether you're begging the question whether you are in fact Arguing that you don't have to prove your worldview.

Well, I'm gonna ask him I'm gonna ask him is is begging the question universally Wrong authoritative. Is it universally authoritatively wrong? And if so, how do you back that up?

So he's saying I don't have to prove mine, but I'm not making the claim. It's created. Hmm well, I guess my question is why I prefer that you come on in go to apologize live comm. Join us and we could discuss it be a lot easier discussion because when you're saying that you're not claiming it's created what's created the universe.

Because if you're gonna claim it's not created. What do you what are you claiming? Are you claiming that the universe eternally existed? It never had a beginning because the first law of thermodynamics disproves that.

It proves that matter had a beginning. If you're gonna argue that the universe created itself. Well that violates the second law of logic the law of non-contradiction. Because it couldn't it have to first exist to be able to create itself.

So it can't not exist and exist at the same time. So you're only left with one option sir, or ma 'am. I don't know. You the only option you're left with is someone or something created it. If the you think there's another argument.

Come on in and point it out show us. But why would I have to prove the only thing that makes logical sense? Why don't you prove that it wasn't created? Oh. That's right, because you say you don't have to prove your position.

Because you can't I bet.

Yeah, see what I'm gonna Stick my my teeth into like a pitbull is that he's appealing to the laws of logic. And and so when he's appealing to The begging the question fallacy. He's assuming that if someone is begging the question when they make an argument, they are automatically Every time without question judge is being wrong on that particular matter.

Now I'm gonna ask him by what ultimate authority that would he declare that he has no grounding for that whatsoever. And this is the logical absurdity.

That atheism results in. And that's that's what they end up doing right? And this is the thing folks what you're seeing even with this mighty Sirlax if I'm pronouncing that right. What you see. The atheist the professing atheist wants to do is to get us to To argue from their worldview from their position.