Cultish - William Branham & The Latter Rain, Pt. 5

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Cultish - William Branham & The Road To Jonestown, Pt. 6

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There's there's a move in the message of Blacks marrying whites whites marrying blacks and folks think it's all right

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But you know what my God still has nationalities outside the city

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Now what's this brother man says how breeding how breeding how terrible how breeding the hybrid the people

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They it's a big molding pot. I got hundreds of precious colored friends It's born -again Christians, but on this line of segregation and things that they're talking about how breeding the people what tell me?

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What a fine cultured fine Christian colored woman fine Christian colored woman would want her baby to be a mulatto by a white man

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No, sir. It's not right All right

00:48

Welcome back ladies and gentlemen the cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is

00:54

Jeremiah Roberts I'm one of the co -hosts here. I am joined by Andrew the super sleuth of the show Our jaws are obviously still trying to try to pick those up off the ground once again

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We have been going through a wild ride through William Branham His movement with a message we've been doing this extended series with John Collins.

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We're here once again John. Thank you for joining us Thanks for having me back Real quickly before we kind of jump into the context of that clip just tell everyone real quickly

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Where can they find by now? This is I believe the fifth part of our series

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And so definitely check out the previous episodes. We've done in William Branham this particular time

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We're focusing in on the latter rain John real quickly Where can people find you if they want to find out more after listening to this podcast series we're doing with you

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All of my research is published to William dash Branham org you can also find me on Amazon in the book preacher behind the white hoods a critical examination of William Branham and his message and you can also find in the

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Newsletter section of alternative considerations of Jonestown and People's Temple. You'll find some of the information there.

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Hmm Okay, appreciate that so definitely check that out a lot of lots of different additional research if you want to go further

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Into these episodes if you've really enjoyed this content here with John So real quickly, can you just explain real quickly that clip?

02:24

you're listening to was someone named Donnie Reagan and Explained to just a little about what he was his ideology and how he

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Related to William Branham kind of bring him into the whole scenario of where we are with a ladder rain and I'll just say real

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You know just hearing that clip will play another one another clip in the second that will be shocking to people but people need to realize

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Too that words get thrown around like racism white supremacy or even systematic racism

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But and a lot of times it's used as an emotional impact word It's it's more about how it makes you feel or make someone else feel versus what it is tangibly

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That was just something that historically was a movement that place that had underlying ideologies that pushed this movement

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So that's just something you want to be wary of while hearing this clip So can you just bring everyone in John to the context of Donnie Reagan and how he fits in?

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To at this moment Branham's ministry with Roy Davis in the ladder rain. How does that all tie together?

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Donnie Reagan is a William Branham message cult pastor I first heard him actually in the early 90s

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It's deep in the Ozark Mountains in Missouri, he was there was a circuit of different churches that he traveled and preached at and He became very popular in the message in the

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United States There were people I lived in Missouri at the time and there were people from all over the nation who came to hear

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Donnie Reagan preaching he is the pastor of the church in Johnson City, Tennessee that is affiliated with the cult and What he's saying is shocking.

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I mean even to me after having left I'm now shocked hearing this that I once believed and I Could apologize forever for for being in but he's he's basically repeating what is typically said in many of the churches but he became

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He went viral very quickly over these statements. They hit the news media and Believe it's 2014.

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He was he was labeled the most racist pastor in America over these things that he's saying

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What what a lot of people don't realize is what he's saying isn't really his own words

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He's actually repeating William Branham and just offering his support So he's quoting

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William Branham and he's saying I support this separation of races, etc

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But what he doesn't realize is he's quoting William Branham during the time in which

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William Branham was working from a religious standpoint to back

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Roy Davis in his battle against the integration of schools between blacks and whites

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Wow Wow, that's that that's just that's incredible I mean, it's one of those things too when you think about the undue influence a lot of times people are just regurgitating the talking points of the cult leader in which they

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Encompass their cult identity. So in that case that would have been really Donnie Reagan would have really been parroting in many ways

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Is William Branham's underlining? religious ideology that was really he kind of Co Eco labored with Roy Davis to formulate this, correct?

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correct, there's in fact in one of the clips of Donnie Reagan, I'm not sure if you have it or not, but he's talking about William Branham is saying that the

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African -american people have things much better than the white people. Yeah, and the whole movement that This religious movement that sided with the white supremacy groups

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Their main argument was will the black people have schools and they're far better than a white school

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So why do they need to come to the white schools? And that was it was not just William Branham it was basically every white supremacist was doing this and William Branham took it a bit further because he introduced what he called his serpent seed or Christian identity doctrine, right and He labeled it as high breeding

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He he argued against the african -americans coming to the white schools because the the chance of two people falling in love getting married and producing

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William Branham says uses the racial slur mulatto He talks about they would produce these mixed race children and He called it high breeding.

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They're high breeding the people Mm -hmm. Yeah, and I'm on that note I'm gonna play this additional clip from Donnie Reagan and I just want to kind of give a warning

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We played this clip at the very beginning might have been disturbing to people this clip We're playing this not to glorify in any in any sense

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What is being said here but open you all up to the reality of the fact that this is you know

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A bad theology hurts people and taking something as beautiful as the gospel where it's there's neither

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Greek nor male No, or nor female and just seeing this broad variety of people from every tongue tongue tribe and nation of how the gospel is supposed

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To bring being this unifying factor, but but to take that and distort it in such a way

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So again, we're gonna go ahead and play this clip from Donnie Reagan again This clip is disturbing again

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If you have little ones around just you might want to just consider either turning it down just wait till you're by yourself again

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It's disturbing but it's something to you need to hear to get the gravity and context of what we are dealing with with William Branham in The latter rain.

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Here's this clip by Donnie Reagan Tell me what good smart intelligent beautiful Colored woman and you tell me what

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KKK cab would call a black woman beautiful You tell me what white supremacists would call any a black woman a beautiful.

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This is not from a white supremacist This is not from a racist. This is from a prophet of God Watch him honor and give respect not putting the white above the other or the black above the other

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Beautiful color woman would want to have a baby by white man to make it a mulatto not sense Many things are colored.

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Now. Listen white folks many thing the color people has is far beyond the white man

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This is not a white supremacist saying this this is not a racist saying this this is a man who loves truth

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Yeah, so I don't really I'm at a loss of lots of words of what to say I'm not going to repeat really anything at all in any sense.

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But again, this is just to show you this is the reality of This person's heart.

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I'm at a loss of words what to say so back to you John maybe give your thoughts on this as much as you can and how much so you're so all of that of what he just said is directly a byproduct of regurgitating

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William Branham's Underlying ideology of the latter rain. Is that correct? Correct.

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I I actually have a flood of emotions listening to this because I Was born and raised to think this way

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But I was also born and raised to think that I wasn't racist and that Race racism itself was wrong.

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So in my head, there's this weird tug -of -war between Right and wrong.

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I know right and wrong, but I'm being told that this thing that I'm in is right He uses the word hybrid often

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William Branham used it Increasingly more whenever Roy Davis started his battle against the integration of schools and You know now that I'm distanced from this

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I'm separate from this and my mind is Starting to reprogram in the normal way

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I'm thinking, you know, he's referring to hybrid food several times in the sermons how you take one type of food and you mix it with another type of food and it doesn't produce as good of a product and He's comparing that to people.

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So now he's he's literally labeled African -americans as one type of human and whites is another type of human and trying to explain that if the two mix they're not as good of a human and I Honestly can say that while I was in this this is the way that I thought but now that I've left

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I'm just Mortified that this was in my head Hmm Wow Okay, and so yeah,

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I can only imagine what that must have been like I mean you kind of grow up me a lot of us have our cultural upbringings and having a certain way in which you just think about the world and not but all of a sudden when you have a

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Reality of of how not only how this is wrong, but all but honestly how this has affected people as harmed people

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Now I can only imagine even for many people who come out of it even moving similar to this realizing the harm that comes upon people almost sort of that Shame or that guilt or wanting to find?

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Atonement for the wrongdoings. I'm thinking about for example Megan Phelps who defected from Westboro Baptist when

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I remember listening to her on the Joe Rogan experience and you could just hear as she was talking about the times where they protested soldiers funerals and just the underlying guilt you

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Could just feel that she still had like she was trying to vicariously atone for her wrongdoings through Confession on that podcast and just seeing the burden that she had, you know,

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I just remember that too So I do really appreciate your transparency and vulnerability here

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John definitely much appreciated So, would you also just tie this in and just continue on with the the formulation of the latter rain because again, this is something that is

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Really was foundational for a lot of people within the realms I don't I'm not really want to name name specifically this point in time

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But just within the realms of hyper charismania really laid a foundation that a lot of people still appeal to to this day

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So, can you explain us the origins of latter rain how all these people Roy Davis William Branham and then

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Donnie Reagan how they all fit in together with the formulation of that yeah, it's it's such a complicated mess to be honest and whenever you think of a clip like this, you're thinking what in the world could this have to do with a evangelical post -world war to healing revival

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Whenever I came across this It's like one of many things that I had to just sit over here to the side and this is such a complicated mess

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I'm gonna research this later and I just basically dove deeper into trying to understand the timeline of William Branham and I was studying the timeline of Roy Davis at the time

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Davis was out in Los Angeles, California Between I think it was 1944 and 1945 and At the same time

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William D Upshaw who we mentioned I think in the last episode joined him there to help establish a

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Basically a front to fund their white supremacy groups and Each time that I tried to get into studying, you know, the the movement the timeline

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The racism kept the white supremacy groups the racism the people who are supportive of white supremacy groups

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They just kept entering the timeline and the the further I went in time the more frequent

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I started noticing it so You know Donnie Reagan fits into this basically he is the he's became the face and the message of the guy who speaks racism, but Again he's not saying anything really different than any other cult pastor is saying he's just the one who got caught rest of them, you know, they're following basically the same movement and the real question that I had to face eventually was

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Was this movement even anything to do with God was God in any way shape or form behind any of it?

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And I think if you examine the fruits of the tree you can see from a statement like this what was behind this

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That's really big and that's no that that's a great point and I'm looking forward to unraveling that and just so you know

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Too and as we've been progressing in this series, we're talking about We're kind of doing a zoom in to the small picture of these people like William Branham Roy Davis And a lot of these other characters but alongside we're going

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We're also zooming out and showing you the bigger timeline the bigger picture of different historical events

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You know, we're talking about the Prohibition Era and the Great Depression how that affected that now we talked about that in earlier episodes

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So in the latter rain in the formulation of it, it was the end of World War two So that was really where this all began

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Like visually think about those pictures That are infamous of the ending of World War two the people in the streets who are waving the flag to the confetti falling down and you know the people in Germany who are just or just all the destruction and devastation and just trying to pick up the pieces or that infamous picture of the of that sailor who's you know,

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Leaning over and kissing his his sweetheart as they finally got home. It's an infamous famous picture

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So but it was in that that though from my understanding that the latter rain began to formulate because it's one of those things too even when there's a peace treaty of Something of a magnitude like World War two not surely thereafter.

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They became to be just be tensions about how long Will this peace last and a lot of times in with that times of uncertainty?

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where different folks, especially those of Evangelists, you know evangelist persuasion or tent revival persuasion will use that to try and exploit people's

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Uncertainties, especially if they have a certain end times visions or eschatology in which to convince people

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The end of the world is happening to formulate their group So that's really from your article.

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That's actually on the Jonestown Research Center. Is that really where that came about the post -world war two?

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Sort of trying to give answers in regards to the End -times visions of what what that meant for the end of the world around that time.

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Is that really that the focal point historically? That's that's part of it there.

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There are a lot of trails that lead to this mess You could study also the

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Pentecostal movement Pentecostalism itself They the modern

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Pentecostalism began in 1907 I think it was as there's a street in Los Angeles and The Pentecostal movement itself was sort of dying out but yet the leaders of that movement were still clinging to the fact that they were looking to Joel to for the prophecy of the latter rain and It never came with the

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Pentecostals of that time So you have World War two has ended you have an entire nation.

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Who's Briefly celebrating but then suddenly turning to fear for the you know the

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Red Scare and all all the things that came with With not having a true ending and a true peace and on earth, so they were expecting

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World War three was coming and You had this group of Pentecostals up in Saskatchewan Canada Who were literally trying to create a religious army?

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That could usher in the end of the world from God's side to bring peace that the world was unable to bring through war

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I Mean, it's just one of you know, there's probably 20 or 30 different trails that lead to the climax

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But in each of those trails they all end with basically this simple fact

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You have William Branham who's going all through Canada who's

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You know, he's he's basically forming the foundation that he's going to build upon into statements like you heard at the beginning of this show and You had a group of men who were just completely blindsided by this

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They thought this was a man of God and they thought that the things that he was doing

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Could only be done through God So they they basically just decided to act on it and he

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Became the leader of you know several different groups at that time So, can you can you key us into exactly like what the the hope of what the latter rain was?

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For example, were they thinking that there was this some evil that was that was coming So they were trying to join together to create kind of like an authority that the old

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Ancient biblical church had in great power through like prophets and supernatural gifts and prophecy

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Can you describe that in a sense in the latter day in the latter rain movement? Yeah, so, you know in the

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New Testament it talks about Whenever on the day of Pentecost it there's a specific quote that's mentioning

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I'm drawing a blank on the quote, but it's mentioning referring to Joel to a prophecy in Joel 2, right?

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And it's basically that was if you if you're a

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Christian and you understand The Bible context is basically me basically saying that this is the latter rain that came from the former rain

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Pentecostalism took this a step further they weren't really

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Satisfied at least in my opinion on what the Bible says was the day of Pentecost They wanted a new day of Pentecost and they threw it into basically a much larger timeline that could include the

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United States and Pentecostalism itself they had this revival that just went very strong and fizzled out and So latter rain was basically an attempt to keep that flame going

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So they started looking to the original Azusa Street Pentecostal as the former rain to their latter rain

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So they they essentially took what was already repeated in the Bible and then repeated it within their own movement

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Wow, so what's what's the danger in that then like taking? things like being

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Let's say like Apostles of today Like what's what's the danger of that in the latter rain movement essentially in terms of their authority that they could have over their members

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William Branham's own campaign team said it best they said they said that the

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Paraphrasing greatly, but they said basically the things that you see these signs and wonders are they're wonderful but the teaching that comes with it is

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Horrific. There are two that I refer to whenever I have this discussion

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One of them is a name familiar to a lot of people both in the message cult and outside Earned Baxter was a man who toured with William Branham from 1947 to 1953

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And Baxter was he was involved in Branham's early meetings in Canada so he saw this whole latter rain thing form he saw what became of it and In 1953 he decided to part ways because and I'll quote him directly

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He said I think there can be a lesson in this Branham as a miracle worker had a real place

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Branham as a teacher was outside of his calling the fruits of his teaching ministry are not good

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The thing that I disagree with mix. Mr. Baxter on is is the miracles there was also a gentleman named

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Alfred pole who was deeply involved in organizing Branham's campaigns and He did a series of interviews

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After Branham left there were Several, you know news of Branham and what he was doing went all through the

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United States and Canada they claimed that he was healing thousands of people

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Branham claimed he was healing thousands of people and Newspapers were trying to find just one person healed so that they could report on this wonderful thing and they were having trouble because they could not find anybody who was actually healed and There was a gentleman named

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Alfred pole who was involved in organizing the meetings and He gives his testimony

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As to what happened and the impact it had on his life. He almost left religion entirely

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Because he said basically that Branham came in and he told all of these people through these prayer lines

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You're healed go home. Be well Branham had this way of You know when people came to the platform to be healed

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It isn't what most people would think of it as a healing They might come with an example that I had today on my website.

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There's a boy who had a missing eyeball So he came to be healed and Branham said go home.

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You're healed Was a you know, the kids eyeball never grew back and he came back to Branham and you know

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They asked why did your eyeball and not grow back? Well Branham would take him through the prayer lines he would tell them they were healed and then they would in turn accept by claiming by faith that they're healed and they would go home and What happened is many of them went home.

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Some of them died several of them didn't get healed and went back to Alfred pole and He was just you know, it wits in so that this faith healer came through town he's left now he had to deal with the aftermath of all of these people who thought they were healed and they're watching their loved ones die and He said it it had a huge impact on him.

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He almost left the faith Wow Wow, um Okay.

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Yeah, that's It's it's scary because there's that that's the danger, right? There's people that are putting their hope in these faith healers

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Believing a spoken word of God in a sense from these people that have authority quote -unquote in the latter rain

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And then they go home don't do other things that could help them in their health and eventually die right and at the same time they're taking the things that these people are telling them these preachers as Spoken word of God, right?

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So they're they're probably even preaching writing instruction. That's contrary to what the Bible says You know that that's that's what

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I find very dangerous Well, and that's one of the huge dangers in them in the movement itself the you mentioned spoken word

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I grew up with these Books and pamphlets of the sermons of William Branham and it was published under the name at that time spoken word recordings and That name has later changed to voice of God recordings and Jeffersonville, Indiana but You you both understand the you know, the impact of this if they're believing that this is a spoken word in other words

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These are people who say the word is the Bible, but they're using the the phrase spoken word

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So when they talk about the Bible to a normal Christian a lot of times they're saying

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Bible verses that don't even exist I've got a list of several Several passages from the quote -unquote

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Bible that I grew up with they were in my head Then I learned years later weren't even in the Bible at all.

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They were part of the spoken word and so whenever you have men who can claim that what that the words coming out of their mouth or a new

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Quote -unquote Word of God or Bible They can literally say anything they want and make you do anything that they want make you believe anything you want

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And in the end the question that you have to ask yourself is if this spoken word is a new gospel

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Can it be compatible with the real gospel of Jesus Christ? Wow Wow Yeah, and it's just interesting too because you know, we have explored different movements before In our podcast, especially when we had just started cultish, you know certain movements who kind of you know

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Even when who would fall under the realms of just general Orthodox Christianity or just as a whole just within the realms of evangelicalism certain movements that are

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Really very well known and if we mentioned their name, but they would have a lot of would have the view of that There's a sort of it.

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We're on the brink of this new revival of heaven being brought right down to earth and we're just we're just on the brink and there's going to be the special generation of prophets and Revelation and mantles to unravel overflow of the

28:32

Spirit Yes, and we and we've we talked about that substantially and just so you know to some of the things in this article as well

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Too you mentioned this and maybe you can unravel this that they're how they viewed you know the sort of maybe elitist us versus the mentality specifically with William Brannan the message in your article on the

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Jonestown article and we might even post a link as well, too We would drop this episode But it said like the militant stance against cold former religion became a central theme

28:58

Within the healing revival or specifically the latter rain and eventually the traditional less formal denominations of the

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Christian faith were given the disparaging label members of mainstream Christianity were viewed as cold and formal formal by leaders of the movement who use brands doctrine in their sermons and even

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Pentecostals who did not join their movement were labeled as cold and formal because the whole ideology of the

29:23

Latter rain was that this is sort of a in the latter days. There's going to be this special God releasing a spirit or giving the special anointing to the church that only the message had access to So if you had

29:37

Brannan's ideology, then you are in the know you are in this new revelation of the

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Spirit versus if you are even if you're tuned into the spiritual gifts or you're a Continuationist, but you're not fully on board

29:50

Brannan's ideology still would be Viewed as cold or indifferent or having a religious spirit.

29:55

Is that is that an accurate assessment or what are your thoughts on that John? Yeah, that played a large part of you know, the revival and its growth, but keep in mind that this

30:07

We're we're talking right now about the spiritual aspect and the dangerous aspect

30:13

But look at just the entertainment aspect. Hmm. You have you have this

30:19

This movement right where it's gathering crowds of tens hundred thousands of people depending on the stadium and the location

30:28

You have people who are coming literally because this is entertaining They see people who are being healed even the speeches themselves if you listen to them they're they're designed to be entertaining and What happened is you

30:45

They call them cold and formal religion because if you go sit in a normal church

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That's just simply reading the Bible talking about the gospel. It's not entertaining and once you planted that cold and Formal, you know view in people's heads and they see all this excitement that's growing from this

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Entertainment that they're watching then they go back to their church and it's not as entertaining. Well, yeah, they're gonna think wow

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This is cold and formal. I want to join in the entertaining thing so it You know, the

31:17

Bible talks about the itching ears. I really believe that this is a good example of that Yeah, no, definitely and what's fascinating as well too.

31:27

Is that the origins of? the Latter rain also brought in a lot of even very very popular

31:34

Names are kind of known in the word on the word of faith movement like oral Roberts For example, you mentioned him and you know, so that several other notable figures

31:42

But one of the you know, we're talking about entered in this in this sphere of entertainment There is a certain person you mentioned their last name and they are very well known when it comes to just a modern culture

31:54

And that is a Kardashian so We had talked about this from the very beginning of it when you told me the connection.

32:01

I was shocked so The origins of me people know Kim Kardashian who you know was married to Kanye West at one point

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You know the maid and it's made news throughout the years they had a long -running show but The whole

32:15

Kardashian family they're directly connected to William Branham. And can you explain that real quickly?

32:22

I Was extremely surprised whenever I saw this connection I Knew that You know the origins of William Branham predated sermons that I had access to here

32:35

He claimed that 19, I think he said 1947 was whenever he got his alleged gift of healing and a guy in Canada shared with me this pamphlet that was from 1945 where he's describing his great healing revivals in 1945 and So I started, you know, just trying to piece back together what happened in those early years what happened leading up to?

33:02

The version of the stage persona that I knew and grew up with and Branham kept referring to this name

33:09

Avoc and There's an unusual name to me. And so it stood out and I started, you know, just digging.

33:16

What can I find on? Avoc in the newspapers and Just a few simple searches and I'm just blown away that there's there was this thing that existed, right?

33:26

this guy from He was a faith healer from I think Iran who he was invited to come to heal a son of a very wealthy owner of a vineyard in Palm Springs and Branham mentions going to be with this

33:46

Avoc and touring with him, etc But he never mentioned the name of who invited him he always says they or these people or Those who sponsored

33:58

Avoc and I just had literally had no idea when I began searching the

34:05

You know the the tour of Avoc and going into Palm Springs Assembled on this book by Jerry Oppenheimer.

34:13

That's Describing the Kardashian family and it came up in a basically a

34:19

Google search He's mentioning Avoc and he's mentioning the Kardashian family sponsoring him

34:26

So I went back to the transcripts of William Branham and Branham says the same people that sponsored

34:32

Avoc sponsored me and they wanted to buy me a Cadillac and He goes into this ramble of how he won't own a

34:43

Cadillac you know how no good minister would own a Cadillac and he would instead drive his old beat -up station wagon or whatever it was he had and So I'm opening this

34:55

Kardashian book for the first time and I'm I see this other name that stands out to me the

35:01

Kardashian family was related to the founder of the full gospel businessmen's

35:08

International Association and They're the ones who basically sponsored sponsored several of William Branham's revival tours and That led me to finding where they actually did give him a

35:23

Cadillac. I've got a picture of him with the Cadillac But all of this led back to the

35:29

Kardashian family, which just blew my mind Yeah, and it's even some of that some of the aspects to of even the

35:37

Historical origins of how they even got here to America, right was fascinating.

35:42

I mean talking about the Name 15 1915 to 1917, you know the Ottoman Empire they were committing, you know, the

35:49

Armenian genocide and then they came over here and rescue of that and then eventually it was the

35:56

That what their initial name wasn't Kardashian It was it was a different name in which that derived from what was that called again?

36:03

Yeah, so that like they came over here in Yeah, they come over here in exile and and as refugees based off of the

36:12

Armenian genocide with the Ottoman Empire So just seeing how that all fled together and just so you know to that that would explain to I mean this is sort of jumping ahead, but You think about last year?

36:24

I mean pre You know 2019 But when things were relatively a little different than as they are now, you know back when people would go to church services 20 ,000 people in a church services that I worry in the world and you think about when

36:37

Kanye West did his performance at Joelstein's church when he with a Jesus King album and now you know that there's some controversy in and of itself

36:45

You were saying that just from the origins of the Kardashians and their relation to William Branham It would make sense then of why perhaps they would have be influenced by Joel since ministry

36:56

Well, there's so many connections. I mean, this is a spiderweb that literally grows through the entire United States Yeah, so you mentioned

37:04

Joelstein his father was John Osteen and I've got newspaper articles where he's joining in this revival he was at Shreveport at the

37:14

Tabernacle there, I believe if memory serves Where Branham's headquarters for the voice of healing magazine was published?

37:24

The the connections are just unreal I mean when I started going through the Kardashian family trying to piece together, okay if Dima Shakarian was the name of the guy who founded the full gospel businessmen's

37:38

Association So I'm looking at the family tree. I'm looking how does he relate to? the patriarch of the

37:45

Kardashian family I stumbled upon Kate Upton in a completely different search

37:51

Kate Upton was the great great granddaughter of Roy E Davis senior through Roy E Davis jr at least according to this

38:01

Ethnicity of celebrities the ancestry race that I was going through. I mean the connections to Hollywood to the entertainment industry just seemed to flow through this whole thing and Even down to the descriptions that the newspaper gave of the men who did it

38:20

They basically described them as entertainers One article in particular

38:27

That just it really painted the picture in my head and Interestingly, it was the same picture that when

38:34

I've actually saw it what I had painted in my head matched This guy said that William Branham was coming into town.

38:42

He was debonair slipped slipped back I can't remember his exactly exact words, but he's basically describing

38:50

Tom Cruise coming into Vandalia, Illinois Whereas your average minister is going to be especially in that town would be bib overalls and you know, a plaid plaid shirt

39:02

Branham's coming in looking like Hollywood, right? then I saw this photograph of William Branham with a

39:10

Valk Hagopian and Both of them are wearing this very Expensive white suits.

39:17

I mean nothing that you would see that your average Evangelist of the day wearing it was all just basically entertainment flowing through it.

39:27

Mm -hmm No, definitely and so one of the things I just want to bring people into is because we're talking about the latter rain and people typically view this of something just amazing this amazing unfolding of the power of God and the signs wonders and miracles and they sort of see

39:44

Branham as sort of this perfectly untarnished figure that was really God's prophet and messenger and So on that note and again, it just kind of I appreciate kind of giving a little the historical context of you know to care to different people you're talking about the aspects and how

39:59

Bram's connected to areas of entertainment and Seeing the direct connection to both Kim Kardashian. I heard the sentence with Kate Upton.

40:06

It's just absolutely fascinating. So Definitely appreciate you sharing that. Yeah, so what

40:11

I'm gonna go ahead and do in regards to just understanding the morality of William Bram's I'm gonna go and play this clip and then

40:18

John I'm gonna go and have you just unpack it And so people can understand the broader context and how that relates to the latter rain as well.

40:25

So here we go Okay, so can you just give us the

40:52

ESPN analysis Highlights level or just some of the breakdown of that clip and what the context of William Bram is behind that quote

40:59

What is he talking out and take us into what's going on behind that clip when he said that? Yeah, so this is this is basically the climax of this movement as it grows

41:12

If you it's funny if you study Pentecostalism and you know any of that history They grew they split they grew those split and you have all these different branches of Pentecostalism, right?

41:24

Well the latter rain at least from what I've studied of it. This movement was something that grew very quickly and then branched off and split and severed branches very quickly

41:38

William Branham's talking about the climax of his involvement with the revivals

41:46

Lattering revival and voice of healing revival for a period of time merged and then they split and It's funny if you talk to somebody who's deeply involved with the latter rain movement that Split off of the

42:03

Branham movement. They'll say Branham was never in it But if you you know, if you study the deep hardcore theology, it's all based on the same thing well

42:12

Branham grew to popularity that went around the globe during the 50s and he did a tour through Europe and basically

42:24

He goes into Europe and he hears that there's this place called place Pigalle France near Paris or in Paris and he hears that there's all these women just stripping right on the streets and His quote pretty well sums it up.

42:40

He says I heard this and I didn't believe it how would I know unless I go see it so he goes and he sees it and He comes back and his conclusion is yep, they strip right down on the streets

42:53

What's what's funny about it is he's taking these ministers who I mean these people in America were

43:01

Almost elevated to this platform as pedestal that's above any other minister in the nation

43:08

You've got all of these ministers who are now cold and formal and you've got these

43:14

This group this handful of men basically who's leading all of this revival who are

43:20

Extremely, you know that the people believe they're incredibly holy They're going and they're staying at expensive hotels like the

43:28

Piccadilly Branham's wearing an expensive Longines watch that he he got

43:36

You know during during the revival. He's making all this money. They go see strippers in place

43:42

Pigalle France and His William Branham's brother Howard at the time

43:48

Ran a bar in Jeffersonville So you've got William Branham who's preaching preaching its alcoholism his brother

43:55

Howard who's in the revival supporting him And then I've I've got newspapers from his bar selling

44:01

Irish shalala Back in Jeffersonville during during the time of the revival.

44:08

So these men were nothing like their stage personas when they left stage Right, right and just you know to this that mean time with a level of hotels that they would be living at This would be the equivalent of having a penthouse suite at the

44:22

Bellagio While you know having sort of a well -known you bring in the revival of God and probably, you know

44:29

Preaching your whole gospel message, but that's the type of luxury. They would be trying pursuing down then, right?

44:35

right Hmm Okay, and so one of the other aspects to which

44:42

I'm curious about because this is this kind of connects into how they connected With Jones and this is you know, we're definitely covering a lot of ground here

44:48

Which I appreciate is that um, you said in your article you mentioned that William Branham He had claimed that his ministry fell within the profit category of the latter rain fivefold ministry

44:59

The funny thing is we've also heard other people who are well -known within the realms of hypercharismia sort of use that language and again just because someone uses that doesn't mean we're making a

45:11

Complete equivalence, but this is something that Brandon appealed to as well, too But he said that he made a frequent use of the title spoken word of God for his sermons which eventually were recorded

45:22

Brandon branded and sold with his title Branham believed that the fivefold office of prophet his particular gift had superiority to the other offices alleging that Jesus Christ would be manifesting in the form of a prophet and Then combining verse 25 from Joel chapter 2 with John 10 34 from the

45:39

New Testament Branham taught members that his sect that they were gods Through the manifestation of God present with his own spoken word little g -gods.

45:49

Yeah little g -gods So it's not the first time we've heard little gods doctrine This seems to be a consistent thing amongst

45:57

These sorts of groups and there's someone else that we will introduce in a second Who you'll see was very influenced by this message as well, too

46:05

So with all that being said, can you just explain maybe a little more in -depth as we kind of wrap up the last 10 minutes?

46:12

the just your perspective of Brandon's view of the fivefold ministry and how that Formulated the latter rain and how that connected to someone by the name of James James Warren Jones Right.

46:28

That's a infamous name We're talking about Jim Jones as well, too

46:37

Right my um my perception of what happened just based on the timeline the history and the aftermath is that What happened on the religious side of things as opposed to the white supremacy background

46:55

You know this running off to the side they created this religious engine that took off from the train station with no track and It went much faster watch much bigger much broader than they ever thought or dreamed that could happen and in the early stages of this latter rain movement they basically were

47:19

You know William Branham's trying to elevate himself as the leader, right? He's saying anybody who can prophesy can be a leader can be the spoken word

47:28

Well, what happens when you say this to another man who says well, I want to be the spoken word, too

47:33

Pretty soon he starts doing and then a third then another well then you've got this consortium of all these opposing prophets none of them in unison whatsoever and So this thing grew so quickly out of control

47:48

That bladder rain itself began to separate from the voice of healing revival

47:54

While they were they were merged at one point in time. They deviated latter -ane movement itself became a different sect of Pentecostal ism and Branham ism basically grew from a subsect of that Specifically the manifested sons of God subsect and What happened was when it grew out of control and he realized that he's he's now playing second base to you know

48:22

All of these other these other guys that are hitting home runs out of the park He he tries to stop it he tries to say that there can only be one true prophet and What's interesting is to achieve this?

48:37

He rewrote the Bible timeline he basically started this doctrine that said

48:44

God only had one major prophet on the earth at a time and Started promoting himself as this major prophet

48:51

I've been to countless sermons from you know author my life from coast to coast

48:58

Where they're the pastors are basically parroting exactly that they're preaching from Branham sermons they're not preaching from the

49:06

Bible and they're saying that there can only be one major prophet on earth at the time and I think

49:13

I told you guys when I left this religion I just read the Bible like I don't know 10 or 15 times over and over to wash this out of my head well,

49:22

I kept reading this phrase as it was in the days of King Darius and I'm like, wait a minute

49:27

I flipped back to the next prophet as it was in the days of King Darius and so I put together my own timeline of major prophets my minor prophets and That got me to even thinking.

49:40

What is a major prophet? What is a minor prophet and It in the cult that I grew up in major prophet meant you were a superior

49:48

Prophet because that's the way Branham taught it But in the Bible, it just meant your major because we have this longer section of text from you

49:58

I Had nothing to do with you know status or or one prophet greater than another one

50:05

But I you know, I put this timeline together and I start to see there's several major even, you know

50:11

Considering the the title major prophet in the Bible. There's several of them that their timelines interlap

50:18

So what happened is this thing grew so far out of control Branham started trying to elevate himself above everyone else and It it made a mess and that mess

50:31

You can probably sum up with Jim Jones if you study How he started what happened and and in the tragic aftermath?

50:42

Yeah, and that's something we want to pack into so just maybe Just just to kind of get what people's appetites

50:49

Could you what was the initial contact that the latter rain movement? When they crossed paths with Jim Jones because my first exposure to it and I've never seen this years ago was a

51:01

It looked like an advertisement like a classic classified ad where talks about the open door to all mankind

51:09

Nationwide Ministries Convention special guest speaker William Branham, but along with the

51:15

Honorable Jim Reverend Yeah, it's hosted by the People's Temple and now hosted by Reverend Jim's W Jones or James W Jones and so That was the first exposure that I had just seeing that.

51:28

Wow. They there's healing a revival services hold like held together And and obviously

51:34

I know that Jim Jones started his quote -unquote ministry out of Indiana around the civil rights movement and based it off of This social justice equality kind of speaking for you know racial justice and those sorts of things in contrast

51:50

Especially it's just so Fasting maybe we can unravel this the contrast between the dualism.

51:55

I would say so different between Branham's upbringing hearing that those horrific racism that we played the very beginning of the episode with Jim Jones's vision of How he wanted to achieve racial equality through divine economic socialism, but anyways, what was the first initial?

52:12

Kind of contact. How are those two just initially merged together? well

52:19

So you had the you had the revival that was spreading the latter in revival that spreading through the

52:24

United States We also had William Branham's headquarter church was in Jeffersonville, Indiana I live in Jeffersonville and you know a drive for me to go up to Indianapolis today is like an hour and a half

52:38

If I have a lead foot, it might be a little bit less than that Right back then, you know, we're talking maybe

52:45

Under two hours he could visit visit that area. Well Jones himself also had a

52:51

Pentecostal background He grew up in a small town. He enjoyed going to hear the local

52:57

Pentecostal Church He also went through a series of just You know trials that led him into a situation where he was

53:09

Very susceptible to joining a cult There's question as to whether he was forming a cult before he met

53:17

William Branham or did William Branham Influence his direction. I'm not the one to make that call, but it looks very much like he

53:26

He was being attracted into a cult at least from what I see Okay, all right, okay that yeah definitely makes sense so what we definitely appreciate making that connection

53:38

So if you guys have enjoyed this first episode the next one we're going to talk further about how

53:44

William Branham's latter a movement affected Jim Jones and ultimately Paved a unique path to Jonestown again

53:51

This is something a lot of people were not aware of I remember my mind just being blown when this connection was made So if you guys really enjoyed this episode go ahead and share this on social media let us know what you thought and we look forward to talking you all in part two or you