May 8, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Opening Banter and Technical Difficulties

And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line that is my name James white a name held in infamy by many but that's alright you stick your neck out there and that's what's going to happen basically and We are live today at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 We have all of our regulars Acting strangely in the chat channel currently actually right now.

We have numerous net splits taking place and in the channel and Half the people disappear and then the other people show back up and it's a wild ride in there at the moment I doubt that anyone's going to be able to really keep track of things in there for a while but anyway, we are live today and would invite you to participate in the program and I have a couple thoughts in mind as to what direction we could go but you know, actually what I'd like to see if we can get to work and this depends on callers and And You know when we first did this, let me ask a oh man.

Do we have anything like we can give away? I Mean everybody listens this program is already, you know got So much of what we have That you know, I don't know if there's really anything to you know, give away or anything like that I Don't know.

Maybe you know, I don't know what I don't know what I'm not seeing anything here at all. So I think he fell off the you know, it may actually be net split come to think of it. Nope. Nope says there Want to give away your hook?

No, how about yours We have we will have a free home improvement lessons given by Rich also known as Tim Taylor Pierce for any one who survives Calling in today. Here's the idea. I'm looking around the room.

You're looking around the room. Well, that's not a good run I'm looking to find out what's what's not nailed. What's not nailed down. Yeah. Well, this is stuff over on the Over on it. Look at those piles of books over there, which ones are not moving Here's the idea what this is well just about blue.

Oh, I think I just destroyed the.

I want to know what it is. You're doing to that wonderful microphone. I got you. I don't know.

See I just disappeared I Said I've got you maxed out again here. I said something too loudly I mean I could I could see it was I hear it was too loud and then it's distorted and I Mean you can hear me doing that, right?

Yeah, I Don't know Don't do that. Okay. Well, I can't even hear myself now. So what can I do about it? Anyway, we may have to just switch microphones the break or something and and and yeah, uh-huh. Here's here's the idea and I'm just disappearing here.

I think this this microphone is about had You know, it's it's gone through its last things here. What I would like to do is invite you to call in at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and then see it's doing something really weird and then I will present to you a position a theological position I will I will sort of role play with you for a moment and Your your job is to determine what religious group I might be representing.

So that's that's what I'd like to invite you to do today. And if we don't get takers real fast, you're just going to have to listen to me talk forever. And I would you know, I wish Warren was here because I could threaten to have him sing Elvis but because that used to really work well and Given that that rich has now gotten a real following in the channel because of his dreamy voice that's according to CDS his wife and Amy and channel and I seen that that sounds fine.

I'm not sure What happened what did what'd you do did you find some well see it's still not in there just appeared again. That's really weird. And now it's gone and and I'm just gonna give up and move to Alaska and sell tires.

But anyway Something weird is going on there and I don't have the foggiest idea what it is. Anyway if you call in today and I'm not sure if people are hearing that crackling and all the rest of stuff or not, but If you call in at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one We can do some role-playing and some discussing and things like that.

And if not a free set of cruise tickets Yeah, that would be nice. That would be really nice. I wish I could hey James. Yeah, have you got?

We got a little sound effect, you know, like the doo-doo-doo-doo-doo. Yeah, can you do that real quick through your computer?

You mean to like cover for while you run in and do something? Oh, yes I'm gonna try something. Um, yes. Hold on a second. You got me up. Hey, that sounds absolutely Awesome. Did we like lose a segment of the soundboard or something?

Is that what happened? Cuz that sounds Tremendous. I mean you just earned your pay. Both of both dollars. I got another call coming in here. Okay, that's good. You do that. Ah. Well, I guess we I guess we just revealed Rich's pay scale.

Poor guy because that's that's actually more truth. But you know, this sounds great now I can hear myself and that's not a good thing. I it's not that I want to but It sounds much much better. So Now they're ripping off jeopardy.

Yes, we are ripping off jeopardy. Anyway, we have them. Oh. Someone's on the intercom trying to talk to me. I don't know why there's why would somebody be on the intercom? Especially during the dividing line.

Go away intercom. Thank you very much. We are so professional around here I'm gonna tell you something. Pay dispelled PA ID people not PAYED it. You know watching the channel is just a very frightening thing.

It really sometimes is but Anyway, we actually have people calling in so that's good because I'm not going to have to Talk and stuff like that. Let me just remind you for those of you in the New York area t-minus three weeks and counting in fact.

Right about now three weeks from this moment I Think Mitch pack will be giving his opening statement or at least he needs to be by this point in time. We need to start on time for once. Back there and believe it or not now, please make sure you're sitting down before I make this announcement, but I Updated the calendar page.

I know I know it's almost a tradition that the calendar page is actually a sort of a a historical. This is what we were doing 18 months ago. Oh Pete in Canada is calling for the Oakley's Who who is yours or mine?

Anyway The calendar page has been updated and On it, you will find the promotional thing my Bobby Wobber for the Great Debate. What is this number? Let's see 96 97 98 99 2000 2001 2002 2003 so that's the Great Debate 8 and that rhymes the Great Debate 8 will be Alex Trebek is James White's historical research assistant.

That's a little bit of it only slightly inside joke. If he remembered all the questions he's asked he would probably a pretty good one the materials up there location times please feel free to Copy that URL copy the text whatever you want to do.

Send it to whoever you want in the New York area be of be a friend invite somebody to come to it. So we can have a good group there. I think we probably will have a good group I think that Mitch Pack was going to be promoting it himself.

He's been doing some other speaking around there and. So y 'all make sure to use that and the same materials found on the debate page on the website either one but that's three weeks from tonight the debate will be on the subject of the Roman Catholic priesthood and so keep that in mind and As far as the cruise goes and am I really waiting on Pete is that is that what I'm gonna do here?

Doo-doo-doo-doo. Hang on a second. I'm setting them up. Oh. He sets himself up pretty well actually.

Just just wondering. The cruise is is filling up. We've got some more cabins available now. At the same incredible rate there is a possibility I cannot. I can't please do not try to tell it to get me to go beyond this but the possibility exists of someone really cool coming along.

To do music that's all I'm gonna say. I can't say any more about that because we haven't we haven't nailed it down. But this could get really really neat here very very quickly so. So we don't have Pete in Canada, but we have Peter in Colorado Springs, is that the idea?

No we have Pete in Canada. Oh Pete in Canada's up first, but I'm not giving him my Oakley's. Well, you're gonna have to discuss that with him. Oh, okay. Well bring him on and I'll discuss it with him.

Psalm 22 and the Suffering of the Messiah

Hello Pete. Hello hi Pete. Hi, where's my Oakley's?

They are down at your local Oakley dealer and All you have to do is get out your your checkbook your wallet or your credit card and And he will give you your Oakley's. Isn't that neat. That is a pretty cool deal.

But I heard well Pete you're giving a pair away, and I called it well Pete. Let me let me ask you Where's my Furby? It's coming.

Okay, Pete Pete who's mr.. X. I don't know. Well we are not completely certain of that you know. Actually I do have a quick question, okay, what's your. What's your quick question before I hit you with a theological bomb?

Oh, no, don't hit me with theological bomb. I'm doing a Sunday school class uh-huh on Psalm 22 this Sunday. What age? Pardon me what age is an adult? Oh, it's a women's Sunday school class. I'm wondering why they ask.

Okay, women's Sunday school class hmm. I'm not sure whether that's a consummature or 22. Many bulls have said I'm not any idea um.

I'll hold on a second. I've got it. I've got a log off something over here because I'm doing this from a long distance here. Okay. I just disconnected. Yes as my I. My understanding is simply it's a geographical term and that it was known for its production of strong animals and That these these animals were very fierce and so the idea was similar to the fact that Christ was surrounded by soldiers and those who were Opposed to him and and so on so forth.

That's the the Typology that that I've always understood. You have just exposed one weakness. I'm not sure where geographically bashing was, but I would assume That almost most probably most decent commentaries would have at least some mention.

Oh, yeah.

I was wondering if this I think it's it's primarily in reference to opposition and.

To to the fact that that opposition could cause, you know tremendous pain and anguish to the to the psalmist as we see it fulfilled in Christ himself. Okay, that's good for me. Do I get my Oakley's? Um, like I said, I'll tell you what the closest I can come is is.

If you'd like some recommendations I am the man To help you out with that. I really am so. Then I encourage the next caller to. Okay, now did you want me to to throw a question ladies and gentlemen, what is Pete.

Just one a.

Pen oh, I didn't realize that you were actually going to ask a theological question. Yeah, go ahead.

Oh, yeah. We'll see. What I was going to do is is I'm going to Dialogue with you for a few moments and then you're going to tell me what religious group I'm from. Oh.

See, I just heard Oakley's immediately drop the earphones and grab the phone.

He's now been disqualified from the shirt dialogue with me.

Okay, I guess. Did you hear from. Did you hear riches dreamy voice there? I did. Okay, I'm gonna do that all night. Oh, where's that? Where's that good idea wave? That's what I needed. I need to put a good.

Anyhow, okay, let me. I need to sleep, you know like an actor has to be prepared to go into characters, so I too have to prepare myself to do this because it's a very serious stuff and you and I are always.

Serious and everything. I do. I know I certainly.

Don't know about you. No, I understand. Yes.

I remember coming on channel fairly recently and I wasn't even there to provoke anything and you guys were just.

Like you were the leader your Nick provokes everything. Did you notice in channel? Someone has given you information bashing a district east of the Jordan known for its fertility, which was given to the half-tribe of Anassa.

I See, all you gotta do is ask in that channel. I it I don't know what I would do without Nielsen and yeah, and JS even though as you and I both know it's gonna be a sad day when she leaves, isn't it?

Okay, anyway, I'm gonna slip into a persona here and have a little discussion with you now Pete. You said that you you you teach a Bible say class. Is that in a Christian Church? Yes, it is. Oh, okay.

And and you all what do you all believe about Jesus Christ? Do you do you believe that he is? A God or God. We absolutely Trinity. Oh, so you are a Trinitarian. Did you know though that the term son of God? Is used most often and far more often than any other description of Jesus Christ in the Bible.

Okay, and and and that that alone should indicate to you that That the idea that he is somehow equal with the father or something like that. Simply simply wouldn't wouldn't follow at all. You know, we have a we have a meeting that Meets at the local wherever you live there in Canada at the local University, which I'm sure you have many of them there.

And we you know, we have a lot of young people we we have like what are called twig meetings and Twig is a part of a you know. The twig is the end of the tree and then those form branches and then the trunk and so on and so forth.

And so we have a twig meeting. Would you be interested in coming?

So you don't want to come. Well that that's possible. Well, let me ask you briefly what you believe.

Well Well, I like I said Jesus is the son of God and and that do you have. You have you spoken in tongues to be saved? No, I have not. Oh, okay. Well Well, you know what? Aomin rich rich has figured this out.

So since he's figured it out, then we have to ask you.

Okay, this is. I guess that last one is gonna be. I'm just gonna have to throw it out there.

Let me this thing. This is Final Jeopardy, I hope we don't get sued for that.

Okay, Pete. Who was I? Absolutely. No idea, but I'm just gonna say.

Well, I. Let's see. Ah, see see a wild boar in channel this just in from I'm not gonna say the rest of it. Yes wild boar is correct from the way international Victor Paul We're wool that is correct. Even though ignorant of that girl, even though wild boar misspelled we're wool.

That's okay. Who would spell it right? Anyways. Yes, Victor Paul. We're will who you know, it's interesting the we I should make a meaningful application here. That group has splintered up into zillions of little groups and the reason is this historically for any false religion to Gain a ground and survive the death of its original charismatic leader.

There needs to be a second-generation charismatic leader so when when you had Joseph Smith you had Brigham Young that followed him up and there there you have the Mormon Church Victor Paul. We're will didn't His his the person who took over after him Simply was not able to keep the movement together and hence it has splintered into all sorts of of the little groups.

But their their meetings were called twig meetings. We're will wrote a book. Jesus Christ is not God and one of his main arguments was he's called son of God you count up. The number of references and since he's called son of God more often than God.

That's why he is the son of God and is a created being and all the rest that stuff. So Yes, indeedy. I don't know how big they are up in Canada. Let alone your sort of far reaches. At all in my area, okay.

Well, hey I threw I threw a curve at you there, but you know. That's because we love you. Okay. Okay, man. Thanks for calling. That's how it works folks, even though we do not normally discussion discuss Furbies with our callers.

That one I knew I could get away with so that's that's how it works. And so you can you can join us at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Even though Pete didn't get anything the poor guy I mean we offered him a pen didn't we did that was it?

Was it an alpha to make a pen or just simply sort of like a BIC?

It looks rather used. It's hard to make out. What has he gotten to it? Not yet, but I can't beat it. The next next person in line could get a Zeke chewed pen. There you go.

That that would be really cool. That would be that would be wonderful. You know It's a little unfair that wild boar got that because wild boar used to work for a very well-known Christian apologetics ministry that I won't mention a more than that, okay, and So that's not fair.

So if he calls in that's gonna be that's not gonna be good. Okay, let's go to Peter in Colorado Springs The Mecca of evangelical Christianity in the United States. Hi Peter. You get to deal with Pete and repeat Well, you know, how'd you like that description of Colorado Springs as the Mecca of Yeah Me CCA.

Yes Islam for 200. What do I get? Well, like I said, we basically only have that one pen it's sort of sort of bad, but Well, how are things up in Colorado Springs by the way Pete, oh, it's going really good right now, okay good nice weather up There right now.

Yeah, it's like 63 degrees. Oh, that's nice. Only 76 here, which is really unusual for us. It's supposed to be in the like 90s by now. But anyway The next color. Oh, I look down said next color is Peter in Colorado.

No, like I'm already talking to him. What did it look like you just come up? Okay, I'm going to roll myself into You know persona here and we can have a little little discussion and you know. What I should have done is written all these down because some of them some of them are just too easy.

You know some of me though. I get the easy one. According to by the way for those listening. We have three lines. Oh three lines open the folks. That's just that's too many lines. That's just did we lose Cedric or is Cedric still there?

AOMN is not the fastest type right the planet. He's here. He's there good. You just talk. I guess that's fast for you. That's much faster in typing. So, okay. Well then so three lines open. So we have five lines available.

That's that's that's as good as like KFYI or something impressive impressive. Very impressive. Yes, don't do that. It gets Pete all excited the other Pete not Peter in Colorado, but the other one the weird one.

Okay. All right. Let's let's go ahead and roll into. Mm-hmm into my persona here now this this group. Well, I'll just go ahead and get into it and see if you can you can figure it out. So Peter you will you go to a church up there in Colorado Springs?

Yes. How would you describe your church? Um. And be Presbyterian, which is the only perfect church. Oh, oh the Orthodox Presbyterian Church Actually, I Well, normally OPC means our private club or something along those lines, yes, okay.

Yeah. So, um, how how far back does does your church extend? Do you do you know?

It depends on what you mean by church if you mean the church building it's been there since 1978.

Well, you know that that's one of the reasons that that I really appreciate my my tradition in my church is that You know, there is that there's a continuity. Through the through the liturgy and and through the the prayers of the church.

That connects us all the way back to the time of the Apostles, you know, it's that it's that unchanging character. That is so important I think in in a day when groups come and groups go and there's wouldn't you agree there's a tremendously wide variety of of of Beliefs out there and and who's to know which which one is right?

You really really need to have some kind of continuity going back to the Apostles. Don't you think?

Yes, actually, I would agree with that and that's what we find in the Bible.

Well, you know the Bible is true, but what about the prayers and the and the the the the liturgy of the people. I mean, I would you know, I know that you're you know as a as a Presbyterian. You would be opposed for example to the abuses of of Rome and I and I I reject that as well.

I I recognize that. That's uh, you know the idea of one leader Is simply not to historically tenable or anything like that, but still the beauty of the liturgy and the traditions. That that that connect us with the Apostles.

How would you as a Presbyterian have access to those things? Can I guess who you are then. Yes, certainly you can that sounds to me like orthodox. There you go. Yes indeed Eastern Orthodoxy and all of its various shades.

Yeah, I was thinking maybe Catholic. Well, so is everybody else in the channel, but In reality, I tried to throw that in there and what I was trying to emphasize was the the Orthodox emphasis upon the fact.

That their theology is not found you know when you want to ask what what Roman Catholicism believes you can go to the Catholic Catechism you can go to the Statements of the councils and popes and things like that.

And even though there's different opinions as to how they're to be interpreted still you can go to a source in Eastern Orthodoxy what what this what. Causes problems for people in understanding Eastern Orthodoxy is we generally are asking questions of them.

That sort of come across in their way of thinking and I'm only talking about Real Orthodox. I mean there's an American version. It's sort of Uh. The real Orthodox or look at some of the American versions as being sort of fake and not really historically sound.

When we ask them questions, it's almost like the Charlie Brown thing where the teacher, you know How the teacher talks to Charlie Brown wall wall wall wall wall wall, you know like that. Yeah, we're speaking a different language.

And the reason is when you ask them, where do we find your theology? They'll go. We'll listen to our prayers. Watch our liturgy. That's that's where our theology is and they find the very asking for a statement in a creedal form like that to be Unusual what you do is is and they have a very strong view of tradition as well.

It's just that tradition which is embodied in the prayers and the liturgy of the church. And so That is the argument that they use even against Roman Catholicism and there is a resurgence of Orthodox apologetics in the United States right now, so.

Anyhow, well Peter, thank you very much. Well, what we'll have to do is we'll have to put your name down and maybe at the end of the program. We'll have a you know, some sort of providential lottery as to who gets the Zeke chewed pen or something like that.

You can send to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

I'm sure they would appreciate that. We'd have FBI agents at the door almost instantly. Well, anyways, thanks for calling Peter. All right. Goodbye. God bless. All right, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

We will take your call right after this break.

Books, Debates, and Ministry Announcements

The Trinity is a basic teaching of the Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us. James White's book the Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters.

It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit.

The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the Trinity. Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike.

Highly recommend it. You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at AO men org. The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine.

In his book the God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of Justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute. James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith. Dr. J Adams says I lost sleep over this book.

I simply couldn't put it down. James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates. This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words.

The God who justifies by dr. James White. Get your copy today at a omen org. More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils.

They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and. Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing. This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics.

Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book the Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatory and indulgences and Marian doctrine.

James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself. They cannot be ignored. Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen Org.

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 to 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

How the pilgrims progress? It's not an easy way. It's a journey.

Oh I am so thankful that we have. Let's just go back to five o 'clock and start it all over. Start all over. I Got an email by the way, you know, it's fun getting emails from people who are actually listening to the program.

Unfortunately, I can't find out where it went. Oh here, yes a Person who shall remain somewhat unnamed back in Florida in the Tampa Clearwater area. Note and In regards to what we should give away to the first single female colliery dinner date with Warren.

And it could be arranged on the cruise. I guarantee you. In fact, I think Warren would like that for the every night all seven nights will just free dinner dates with with Warren for the first single female callers going on the cruise and He does pick up these tapes doesn't he listens these things.

I think he does mm-hmm. He sure does. Oh, yeah I hope he doesn't drive off the road when he hears this one. Well be well. He'll be listening on mp3 so he gets oh, oh, okay. I thought he got the tape.

Okay. All right. Well, we miss Warren around here. Since we went to these daytime things a poor guy has to work. So Maybe if we do a special Saturday program, we'll we'll have be able to have him on. All right, let's go ahead and press on here.

Calvinism, Consistency, and the Challenge of Tradition

Let's talk with Cedric over in in the land of fruits and nuts the land of gray out Davis the land of of the incredible Laws especially in regards to public education known to man outside of Europe the great state of Nutburger, California.

Hello Cedric. Hello. Are you doing today? I'm doing okay. Is that a fair description? More like Salomon Gamora. Ah, there you go. You're not up. You know, you're in San Francisco then. Oh, yeah. No, I'm in LA.

Oh, okay. Okay. Did you see the debate Friday? No, what?

Maybe I'm a little behind. I haven't a little. Well, yes.

Most viruses are a little just here. Did you hear that? I mean as soon as I said I laughed. It went and it. And that that may be what's causing it. Maybe I'm blowing of things up in the board over there.

I can't handle this. I don't know. There was a debate between Robert Bowman and Greg Stafford in the LA area Friday night on the deity of Christ.

No, wow, well Warren and Simon from our ministry went over there and saw it and that's why the only debate. I was a buzzer. Oh, yes, you know the trees non-trinitarian. Yes. Yes arguing I heard that didn't go overly well either actually.

Oh, really? I haven't heard the outcome. Friend of mine is supposed to be receiving the CD waxing. My pastor is going to be receiving the CD. One of his one of his my he teaches theology classes. He was he wanted to send him the debate, but he hasn't sent him the CD yet.

Well, it's really strange.

I had been contacted by some people in the California area about the possibility of debating him buzzard and I had said well, you know, here's the things you have to do to set up a debate, you know. Let me know if you can you know.

Find you know, you have to find a place you have to have some sponsorship you have to have people, you know, and they never got back with me and I guess they found somebody else and and You know all I heard of I don't even know who it was.

All I heard was that it wasn't as useful as it could have been. So, you know, I don't know but anyway, that's neither here nor there. But so you you're ready to find out what?

Religious group. I'm a part of okay. So we try ask the question after you.

Go ahead if you have a question, go ahead. That's that's more and more important than my silly role-playing. Okay. Um, I.

Mm-hmm. I know but I'm serious. This is a very serious offense. Yes, and I was wondering. Well, they're saying you are safe and in that salvation day by day.

Yeah well I think the the the shortest answer would be consistency that is the the Judaizers were Very clearly and purposefully in fact in Galatians chapter 1 we're told that they it was their intention It was their desire to pervert the gospel.

That they are were very clearly Adding a requirement to the gaining of justification now I would agree with you that an individual who does not see the perfection of Christ's work of salvation Is in essence saying that that Christ cannot be a perfect Savior that he lacks power they are distracted detracting from his glory.

They are saying that he does not do the will of the Father even though the will of the Father is he lose none of those Are given to him. All those things are true. But the one thing you need to remember Cedric is that?

You and I in and I'm not. I don't know where you go to church. But I'm assuming from the nature of your your question at least in the reading that you're doing. We are in a context where we are being challenged to think through What we believe we are being challenged to consider what we believe to look for consistencies and inconsistencies.

And in fact, I would imagine you would join with me in saying Semper Reformanda always reforming always always examining what we believe. And that that's something that's that's very very important and very very good.

However Something that we tend to forget is not everyone is in that context many people go to churches where it is actually a part a Purposeful part of the leadership of the church not to create that very atmosphere.

Because that that ends up causing Wounded feelings and a part of some people you can make people uncomfortable. And if you're trying to make people feel as comfortable as possible, that's the last thing that you want to happen and therefore They go to a church where the idea of challenging you to consistency Simply isn't there and as a result they hold to extremely inconsistent Views of theology.