May 8, 2003

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This is the Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.
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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the
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United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now, with today's topic, here is
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James White. And good afternoon. Welcome to The Dividing Line. That is my name,
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James White, a name held in infamy by many. But that's all right.
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You stick your neck out there and that's what's going to happen, basically. And we are live today at 877 -753 -3341, 877 -753 -3341.
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We have all of our regulars acting strangely in the chat channel currently.
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Actually, right now, we have numerous net splits taking place in the channel and half the people disappear and then the other people show back up and it's a wild ride in there at the moment.
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I doubt that anyone's going to be able to really keep track of things in there for a while.
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But anyway, we are live today and would invite you to participate in the program.
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And I have a couple of thoughts in mind as to what direction we could go. But you know, actually, what
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I'd like to see if we can get to work, and this depends on callers. And, you know, when we first did this, let me ask
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AO Man, do we have anything like we can give away? I mean, everybody who listens to this program has already, you know, got so much of what we have that, you know,
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I don't know if there's really anything to, you know, give away or anything like that. I don't know, maybe, you know,
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I don't know. I don't know. But you know what? I'm not seeing anything here at all. So I think he fell off the, you know, it may actually be net split, come to think of it.
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Nope. Nope. It says it's there. Want to give away your Oakleys? No? How about yours?
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We will have free home improvement lessons given by Rich, also known as Tim Taylor Pierce, for anyone who survives calling in today.
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Here's the idea. I'm looking around the room. You're looking around the room? Well, that's not a good room to be looking. I'm looking to find out what's not nailed down.
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What's not nailed down? Yeah. Well, there's some stuff over on the, over on, look at those piles of books over there.
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Which ones are not moving? Here's the idea. What this is, whoa, just about blew, uh -oh,
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I think I just destroyed the... I want to know what it is you're doing to that wonderful microphone
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I got you. I don't know. See, I just disappeared. I said... Yeah, I've got you maxed out again here.
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I said something too loudly. I mean, I could, I could see it was, I could hear it was too loud and then it's distorted and uh,
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I mean, you can hear me doing that, right? Yeah. I, I, I don't know. Don't do that.
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Okay. Well, I can't even hear myself now, so, uh, what can I do about it? Anyway, uh, we may have to just switch microphones at the break or something and, and, and yeah, uh -huh.
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Um, here's, here's the idea and, uh, I, I'm, I'm just disappearing here. I think this, this microphone is about had, uh, you know, it's, it's gone through its last things here.
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Um, what I would like to do is invite you to call in at 877 -753 -3341 and then see, it's doing something really weird, and then
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I will present to you, uh, a position, a theological position.
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I will, I will sort of role play with you for a moment and, uh, your, your job is to determine what religious group
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I might be representing. Uh, so that's, that's what I'd like to invite you to do today.
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Uh, and if we don't get takers, uh, real fast, you're just going to have to listen to me talk forever.
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Um, and, uh, I would, you know, I wish Warren was here because I could threaten to have him sing
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Elvis, but, uh, because that used to really work well and, um, given that, uh, that Rich has now gotten a real following in the channel, uh, because of his, uh, dreamy voice, uh, that's according to, uh,
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CDS's wife and, uh, Amy and Channel and that, that, that sounds fine.
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I'm, I'm not sure. What happened? What did you do? Did you find some?
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Well, see, it's still not in there. It just appeared again. That's really weird. And now it's gone. And, and I'm just going to give up and move to Alaska and sell tires.
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But, uh, anyway, um, something weird is going on there and I don't have the foggiest idea what it is.
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Um, anyway, if you call in today, uh, and I'm not sure if people are hearing that crackling and all the rest of that stuff or not.
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But, um, uh, if you call in at eight, seven, seven, seven, five, three, three, three, four, one, we can do some, uh, role playing and some discussing and things like that.
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Uh, and if not a free set of cruise tickets, yeah, that would be nice. Uh, that would be really nice.
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I wish I could. Hey James. Yeah. Uh, have you got, um, have you got a little sound effect, you know, like the doo doo doo doo doo doo?
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You know, can you do that real quick, uh, through your computer? You mean to like cover for while you run in and do something?
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Uh, yes. Uh. I'm going to try something. Um, yes. Uh, hold on a second.
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Um. You got me up? Hey, that sounds absolutely awesome.
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Uh, did we like lose a segment of the soundboard or something? Is that what happened? Cause that sounds tremendous.
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I mean, you just earned your pay. Both of both dollars. I got another call coming in here.
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Hang on. Okay. That's good. You do that. Uh, well, I guess we, I guess we just revealed, uh, uh, richest pay scale.
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Poor guy, because that's, that's actually more truth than we really want to admit.
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Uh, but you know, this sounds great. Now I can hear myself and that's not a good thing. Uh, I, it's not that I want to, uh, but, uh,
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I, it sounds much, much better. So now they're ripping off jeopardy.
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Yes, we are ripping off jeopardy. Anyway, we have, um, oh, someone's on the intercom trying to talk to me.
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I don't know why there's, why would somebody be on the intercom? Especially during the dividing line. Go away.
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Intercom. Thank you very much. We are so professional around here.
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I'm going to tell you something. Um, pay dispelled P a I D people, not
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P a Y E D it, you know, watching the channel is just a very frightening thing.
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It really sometimes is. But anyway, we actually have people calling in. So that's good because I'm not going to have to, uh, um, talk, uh, and stuff like that.
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Let me just remind you for those of you in the New York area, T minus three weeks and counting.
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In fact, uh, right about now, three weeks from this moment, um,
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I think Mitch Pack will be giving his opening statement, or at least he needs to be by this point in time. We need to start on time for once, uh, back there and believe it or not.
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Now, please make sure you're sitting down before I make this announcement, but I updated the calendar page.
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I know, I know it's almost a tradition that the calendar page is actually a, um, sort of a, a, a historical page.
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This, this is what we were doing 18 months ago. Oh, Pete in Canada is calling for the
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Oakleys. Uh, who, who is yours or mine? Uh, anyway, um, the calendar page has been updated and on it, you will find the promotional thing, my
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Bobby Wobber for the great debate. What is this number? Uh, let's see. 96, 97, 98, 99, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003.
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So that's the great debate. Eight. That rhymes. The great debate. Eight. Uh, we'll be, um, uh,
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Alex Trebek is James White's historical research. That's a little bit of an only slightly inside joke.
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Um, uh, if he remembered all the questions he's asked, he would probably be a pretty good one.
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Um, the, uh, materials up there, uh, location times, please feel free to copy that URL, copy the text, whatever you want to do, send it to whoever you want in the
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New York area. Be a, be a friend, invite somebody to come to it, uh, so we can have a good group there.
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I think we probably will have a good group. I think that, uh, Mitch Pacwa is going to be promoting it himself. He's going to be doing some other speaking around there.
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And, uh, so y 'all make sure to use that. And, uh, the same material is found on the debate page on the website, either one.
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But that's three weeks from tonight. The debate will be on the subject of the Roman Catholic priesthood. And, uh, so, uh, keep that, uh, in mind.
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And, uh, as far as the cruise goes, am I really waiting on Pete? Is that, is that what I'm going to do here?
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Do, do, do, do. Hang on a second, I'm setting him up. Oh. He sets himself up pretty well, actually.
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Um, I, just, just wondering. Um, the cruise is, is filling up.
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We've got some more cabins available now, uh, at the same incredible rate. There is a possibility.
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I cannot, I can't, please do not try to tell, to get me to go beyond this.
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Um, but the possibility exists of someone really cool coming along, um, to do music.
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That's all I'm going to say. I can't say any more about that because we haven't, we haven't nailed it down. But this could get really, really neat here very, very quickly.
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So, uh, so we don't have Pete in Canada, but we have Peter in Colorado Springs. Is that the idea?
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Do, do, do. No, we have Pete in Canada. Oh, Pete in Canada is up first, but I'm not giving him my
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Oakleys. Well, you're going to have to discuss that with him. Oh, okay. Well, bring him on and I'll discuss it with him.
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Do, do, do. Hello, Pete. Hello. Hi, Pete. Hi, where's my Oakleys? Um, they are down at your local
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Oakley dealer. And, uh, all you have to do is get out your, uh, your checkbook, your wallet, or your credit card.
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And, uh, and he will give you your Oakleys. Isn't that neat? That is a pretty cool deal. I heard that you were giving a pair away and I called in immediately.
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Well, Pete, let me, let me ask you, where's my Furby? It's coming. It's really slowly.
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Okay, Pete, Pete, who's Mr. X? Um, I don't know.
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I don't know. It's not me. Well, we are not completely certain of that, you know.
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Actually, I do have a quick question. Okay, what's your, what's your quick question before I hit you with a theological bomb?
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Oh, no, don't hit me with a theological bomb. On, uh, I'm doing a
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Sunday school class on Psalm 22 this Sunday. What age? Pardon me?
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What age of Sunday? Adult. Oh. Actually, it's a women's Sunday school class. I'm wondering why they asked me to teach a women's
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Sunday school class. I'm not sure whether that's a consummage or something else.
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But, um, verse 12, Psalm 22. Many bulls have surrounded me, strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me, and I'm not totally clear on the
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Bashan reference. Any ideas? Um, now hold on a second.
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I've got to, I've got to log off something over here because, uh, I'm doing this from a long distance here.
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Okay. I just disconnected. Um, yes, um, as my,
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I, my understanding is simply it's a geographical term and that it was known for its production of strong animals and that these animals were very fierce.
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And so the idea was similar to the fact that Christ was surrounded by soldiers and those who were opposed to him and so on and so forth.
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That's the typology that I've always understood. Um, you have just exposed one weakness.
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I'm not sure where geographically Bashan was, but I would assume that almost most, probably most decent commentaries would have at least some mention.
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Oh, yeah, and it was one of the countries that the Israelites defeated on their way into the
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Promised Land. Yeah. And so I was wondering if that could be a reference to, like there's various animals listed in Psalm 22 coming against the author and I was wondering if the bulls of Bashan could be a reference to political or that type of strength.
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I think it's primarily in reference to opposition and to the fact that that opposition could cause, you know, tremendous pain and anguish to the psalmist as we see it fulfilled in Christ himself.
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Okay. That's good for me. Do I get my Oakley's? Like I said, I'll tell you what, the closest
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I can come is if you'd like some recommendations. I am the man to help you out with that.
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I really am. Then I encourage the next caller to ask about Oakley recommendations. Okay, now did you want me to throw a question?
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Ladies and gentlemen, what is Pete just won? A pen. Oh, I didn't realize that you were actually going to ask a theological question.
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Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, well, see, what I was going to do is I'm going to dialogue with you for a few moments and then you're going to tell me what religious group
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I'm from. Oh, see, I just heard Oakley's immediately drop the earphones and grab the phone.
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I didn't catch that part. Pete has now been disqualified from the pen. Okay, yeah, sure. Dialogue with me and I will try and guess what religious group you're from.
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Did you hear Rich's dreamy voice there? I did. I've been listening to that all night. Oh, where's that good idea wave?
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That's what I need to do. I need to pull the good idea wave. Anyhow, okay, let me, you know, like an actor has to be prepared to go into character.
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So I, too, have to prepare myself to do this because it's very serious stuff. And you and I are always serious in everything we do.
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I know I certainly am. I don't know about you. No, I understand. I seem to remember coming on channel fairly recently and I wasn't even there to provoke anything.
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And you guys were just, it's like you were the ringleader. Your nick provokes everything.
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Did you notice in channel someone has given you information? Bastion, a district east of the Jordan known for its fertility, which was given to the half -tribe of Vanessa.
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Oh, good. See, all you've got to do is ask in that channel. I don't know what
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I would do without E. Nielsen and J. S. Even though, as you and I both know, it's going to be a sad day when she leaves, isn't it?
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Sad, very, very sad. Okay, anyway, I'm going to slip into a persona here and have a little discussion with you.
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Now, Pete, you said that you teach a Bible study class. Is that in a Christian church? Yes, it is.
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Oh, okay. And what do you all believe about Jesus Christ? Do you believe that he is a
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God or God? We absolutely believe he is the Son of God and the second person of the
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Trinity. Oh, so you are a Trinitarian. Did you know, though, that the term Son of God is used most often and far more often than any other description of Jesus Christ in the
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Bible? Sure, okay. And that alone should indicate to you that the idea that he is somehow equal with the
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Father or something like that simply wouldn't follow at all. Well, you know, we have a meeting that meets at the local, wherever you live there in Canada, at the local university, which
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I'm sure you have many of them there. And, you know, we have a lot of young people.
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We have like what are called twig meetings. And twig is a part of, you know, the twig is the end of the tree, and then those form branches and then the trunk and so on and so forth.
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And so we have a twig meeting. Would you be interested in coming? This is a tough call.
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It's one of two. So you don't want to come? Well, that's possible.
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Well, let me ask you briefly what you believe. Well, like I said,
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Jesus is the Son of God. And have you spoken in tongues to be saved? No, I have not.
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Oh, okay. Well, you know what? A .O. Min, Rich has figured this out.
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So since he's figured it out, then we have to ask you who this is.
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Okay. I guess that last one is going to be, I'm just going to have to throw it out there. Oh, no.
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Okay, hold on a second. Let me, just a second. Uh...
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Okay. This is
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Final Jeopardy. I hope we don't get sued for that. Okay, stop doing
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Alex. Okay, Pete. Who was I?
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Absolutely no idea, but I'm just going to say Wendis Pentecostal because of the tongue thing, but I know that's not correct.
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Well... Let's see. Ah, see?
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See? Wild Boar in Channel. This just in from... I'm not going to say the rest of it.
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Yes, Wild Boar is correct. James is from The Way International. Victor Paul Weirwul.
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That is correct. Even though... I am completely ignorant of that group. Even though Wild Boar misspelled Weirwul, that's okay.
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Who would spell it right anyways? Yes, Victor Paul Weirwul, who... You know, it's interesting.
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I should make a meaningful application here. That group has splintered up into zillions of little groups.
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And the reason is this. Historically, for any false religion to gain a ground and survive the death of its original charismatic leader, there needs to be a second generation charismatic leader.
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So when you had Joseph Smith, you had Brigham Young that followed him up. And there you have the
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Mormon Church. Victor Paul Weirwul didn't. The person who took over after him simply was not able to keep the movement together.
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And hence it has splintered into all sorts of little groups. But their meetings were called twig meetings.
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Weirwul wrote a book, Jesus Christ is Not God. And one of his main arguments was, he's called Son of God. You count up the number of references.
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And since he's called Son of God more often than God, that's why he is the Son of God and is a created being and all the rest of that stuff.
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So yes, indeedy. I don't know how big they are up in Canada, let alone your sort of far reaches of Canada.
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I've never experienced them at all in my area. Okay. Well, hey, I threw a curve at you there.
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But, you know, that's because we love you. Oh, okay. Okay, man. Thanks for calling.
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God bless. God bless. Bye -bye. That's how it works, folks. Even though we do not normally discuss
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Furbies with our callers, that one I knew
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I could get away with. So that's how it works. And so you can join us at 877 -753 -3341.
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Even though Pete didn't get anything, the poor guy. I mean, we offered him a pen, didn't we? Was it an
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Alpha and a Mega pen or just simply sort of like a Bic? It looks rather used. It's hard to make out.
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Has Zeke gotten to it? Not yet, but I can feed it to him. The next person in line could get a
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Zeke -chewed pen. There you go. That would be really cool.
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That would be wonderful. You know, it's a little unfair that Wild Boar got that because Wild Boar used to work for a very well -known
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Christian apologetics ministry that I won't mention more than that, okay?
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So that's not fair. So if he calls in, that's not going to be good. Okay, let's go to Peter in Colorado Springs, the
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Mecca of Evangelical Christianity in the United States. Hi, Peter. You get to deal with Pete and repeat.
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Well, how did you like that description of Colorado Springs as the Mecca of? Mecca was, yeah, that's a little off.
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M -E -C -C -A, yes. I pick Islam for that religion. I pick
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Islam for $200. What do I get? Well, like I said, we basically only have that one pen.
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It's sort of bad. Well, how are things up in Colorado Springs, by the way, Pete? Oh, it's going really good right now.
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Okay, good. Nice weather up there right now? Yeah, it's like 63 degrees. Oh, that's nice. It's only 76 here, which is really unusual for us.
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It's supposed to be in the, like, 90s by now. But anyway, next caller. Oh, I looked down and said, next caller is
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Peter in Colorado. I don't know. I'm already talking to him. It looked like he had just come up. Okay, I'm going to roll myself into, you know, a persona here, and we can have a little discussion.
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And you know what I should have done is written all these down, because some of them are just too easy, you know. Give me those.
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The easy ones? According to, by the way, for those listening, we have three lines open.
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Now, folks, that's just too many lines. Did we lose Cedric? Or is Cedric still there?
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AOMN is not the fastest typewriter on the planet. He's here. He's there. Good. You can just talk, I guess. For you, that's much faster than typing.
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Okay, so three lines open. So we have five lines available? That's as good as, like,
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KFYI or something. Impressive. Impressive. Very impressive, yes. Don't do that. It gets Pete all excited.
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The other Pete. Not Peter in Colorado, but the other one, the weird one. Okay. All right. Let's go ahead and roll into my persona here.
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Now, this group, well, I'll just go ahead and get into it and see if you can figure it out.
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So, Peter, you go to a church up there in Colorado Springs? Yes. How would you describe your church?
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It would be Presbyterian, which is the only perfect church. Oh, the
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Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I see. Actually, I don't go to the Orthodox one.
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Oh, well, normally OPC means our private club or something along those lines. Yes, okay.
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They just love the name. Yeah. So how far back does your church extend?
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Do you know? It depends on what you mean by church. If you mean the church building, it's been there since 1978.
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Well, that's one of the reasons that I really appreciate my tradition and my church, is that there's a continuity through the liturgy and through the prayers of the church that connects us all the way back to the time of the apostles.
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It's that unchanging character that is so important,
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I think, in a day when groups come and groups go. Wouldn't you agree there's a tremendously wide variety of beliefs out there?
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And who's to know which one is right? You really need to have some kind of continuity going back to the apostles, don't you think?
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Yes, actually I would agree with that, and that's what we find in the Bible. Well, the
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Bible, true, but what about the prayers and the liturgy of the people?
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I know that as a Presbyterian, you would be opposed, for example, to the abuses of Rome, and I reject that as well.
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I recognize that the idea of one leader is simply not historically tenable or anything like that, but still, the beauty of the liturgy and the traditions that connect us with the apostles, how would you as a
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Presbyterian have access to those things? Can I guess who you are then?
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Yes, certainly you can. That sounds to me like orthodox. There you go, yes indeed, eastern orthodoxy in all of its various shades.
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Yeah, I saw the Rome thing, I was thinking maybe Catholic. Well, so was everybody else in the channel, but in reality,
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I tried to throw that in there, and what I was trying to emphasize was the orthodox emphasis upon the fact that their theology is not found, you know, when you want to ask what
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Roman Catholicism believes, you can go to the Catholic catechism, you can go to the statements of the councils and popes and things like that, and even though there's different opinions as to how they're to be interpreted, still you can go to a source.
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In eastern orthodoxy, what causes problems for people in understanding eastern orthodoxy is we generally are asking questions of them that sort of come across in their way of thinking, and I'm only talking about real orthodox.
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I mean, there's an American version that's sort of, the real orthodox sort of look at some of the
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American versions as being sort of fake and not really historically sound. When we ask them questions, it's almost like the
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Charlie Brown thing, where the teacher, you know how the teacher talks to Charlie Brown, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, you know, like that?
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Yeah. We're speaking a different language, and the reason is when you ask them, where do we find your theology, they'll go, well, listen to our prayers, watch our liturgy, that's where our theology is, and they find the very asking for a statement in a creedal form like that to be unusual, what you do is, and they have a very strong view of tradition as well, it's just that tradition which is embodied in the prayers and the liturgy of the church, and so that is the argument that they use, even against Roman Catholicism, and there is a resurgence of orthodox apologetics in the
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United States right now. So, anyhow, well, Peter, thank you very much. What we'll have to do is we'll have to put your name down, and maybe at the end of the program we'll have some sort of providential lottery as to who gets the
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Zeke -chewed pen, or something like that. You can send it to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. I'm sure they would appreciate that.
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We'd have FBI agents at the door almost instantly. Well, anyways, thanks for calling, Peter. All right, goodbye. God bless.
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All right, 877 -753 -3341, we will take your call right after this break.
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The Trinity is a basic teaching of the
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The history of the Christian church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the
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More than any time in the past, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder to shoulder against social evils.
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Evangelicals are finding the history, tradition, and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.
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This newfound rapport has caused many Evangelical leaders and lay people to question the age -old disagreements that have divided
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Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book,
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The Roman Catholic Controversy, is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture. The Papacy, the
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Mass, Purgatory and Indulgences, and Marian Doctrine. James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the
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Christian life and the heart of the Gospel itself that cannot be ignored. Order your copy of The Roman Catholic Controversy by going to our website at aomin .org.
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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the
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Gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.
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The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming
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Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and the worship service is at 10 .45.
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Evening services are at 6 .30 p .m. on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7.
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The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.
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You can call for further information at 602 -26 -GRACE. If you are unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org
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where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.
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A person who shall remain somewhat unnamed back in Florida in the
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Tampa Clearwater area sent me a note in regards to what we should give away.
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The first single female caller a dinner date with Warren. It can be arranged on the cruise,
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I guarantee you. In fact, I think Warren would like that for every night, all seven nights.
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Free dinner dates with Warren for the first single female callers going on the cruise.
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He does pick up these tapes, doesn't he? He listens to these things, I think he does. He sure does. I hope he doesn't drive off the road when he hears this one.
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Well, he'll be listening on MP3. Oh, okay.
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I thought he got the tape. Okay, all right. Well, we miss Warren around here since we went to these daytime things.
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The poor guy has to work. Maybe if we do a special Saturday program, we'll be able to have him on.
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All right, let's go ahead and press on here. Let's talk with Cedric over in the land of fruits and nuts, the land of Greyhound Davis, the land of the most incredible laws, especially in regards to public education, known to man outside of Europe, the great state of Nutburger, California.
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Hello, Cedric. Hello, how are you doing today, Dr. Ryan? I'm doing okay. Is that a fair description?
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Yes, it's more like Solomon Gamora. Ah, there you go. You're in San Francisco then? No, I'm in L .A.
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Oh, okay. That's about just as bad. Did you see the debate Friday?
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No. Maybe I'm a little behind. I haven't been online in a while. My computer had a little virus.
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Well, yes, most viruses are little. Did you hear that? As soon as I said it,
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I laughed. That may be what's causing it. Maybe I'm blowing things up on the board over there.
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I can't handle this. I don't know. There was a debate between Robert Bowman and Greg Stafford in the
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L .A. area Friday night on the deity of Christ. You weren't aware of that? No. Wow. Warren and Simon from our ministry went over there and saw it, and that's why.
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The only debate that I was aware of was a guy named Buzzer. Oh, yes.
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He's a non -trinitarian, and he was supposed to be arguing. I heard that didn't go overly well either, actually.
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Oh, really? See, I haven't heard the outcome. A friend of mine is supposed to be receiving the CD. Well, actually, my pastor is going to be receiving the
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CD. One of his theology classes, one of his students said he wanted to send him the debate, but he hasn't sent him the
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CD yet. Well, it's really strange. I had been contacted by some people in the
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California area about the possibility of debating him. Buzzer. Buzzer.
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I had said, well, here's the things you have to do to set up a debate. Let me know if you can find a place.
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You have to have some sponsorship. You have to have people. They never got back with me, and I guess they found somebody else.
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All I heard, I don't even know who it was. All I heard was that it wasn't as useful as it could have been.
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I don't know. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. You're ready to find out what religious group
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I'm a part of? Okay. I'll ask the question after you do. Oh, go ahead. If you have a question, go ahead.
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That's more important than my silly role -playing. Okay. Two questions.
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The first question is totally unrelated, but the first question is in regards to losing your salvation.
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People who teach that you can lose your salvation, I read The God Who Justified, and one of the things
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I picked up was how serious salvation really is, and that the tampering with it or the teaching that you can add something to it to make sure that humans have anything to do with it, in terms of removing it from being
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God -centered to man -centered, is a very serious offense. Yes. And I was wondering what's the difference between someone, between the
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Judaizers who said, yes, yes, yes, it's Christ who saved you, but in order to maintain that, you must be circumcised, and these newer churches like Calvary Chapel, for example, that say, yes, yes, yes, it's
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Christ who saved you, but you must do this to keep it, instead of saying that you are saved, and in that salvation, because of what actually has occurred, you will live a holy life, you will be progressively sanctified day by day.
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Yes. Well, I think the shortest answer would be consistency. That is, the
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Judaizers were very clearly and purposefully, in fact, in Galatians chapter 1, we're told that it was their intention, it was their desire to pervert the gospel, that they were very clearly adding a requirement to the gaining of justification.
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Now, I would agree with you that an individual who does not see the perfection of Christ's work of salvation is in essence saying that Christ cannot be a perfect Savior, that He lacks power, they are detracting from His glory, they are saying that He does not do the will of the
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Father, even though the will of the Father is His, none of those are given to Him. Absolutely. All those things are true, but the one thing you need to remember,
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Cedric, is that you and I, and I don't know where you go to church, but I'm assuming from the nature of your question, at least in the reading that you're doing, we are in a context where we are being challenged to think through what we believe.
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We are being challenged to consider what we believe, to look for consistencies and inconsistencies, and in fact
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I would imagine you would join with me in saying semper reformanda, always reforming, always examining what we believe, and that that's something that's very, very important and very, very good.
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However, something that we tend to forget is not everyone is in that context.
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Many people go to churches where it is actually a purposeful part of the leadership of the church not to create that very atmosphere, because that ends up causing wounded feelings on the part of some people, you can make people uncomfortable, and if you're trying to make people feel as comfortable as possible, that's the last thing that you want to happen, and therefore they go to a church where the idea of challenging you to consistency simply isn't there, and as a result they hold to extremely inconsistent views of theology.
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I've used this example before, but I remember I was teaching years and years ago at the church we were at before we became members of the
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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church where I am now, and have been for quite some time. I was teaching on the doctrines of grace,
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I was teaching on the concept of election, so on and so forth, and I read through Romans chapter 9, and as I was speaking to a man a few weeks later who was attending the class and was beginning to understand these things, he made a comment to me that I've never forgotten.
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He said, you know, I've read through the Bible before, and I read Romans chapter 9, and you know what?
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I remember reading it and going, man, that sounds like predestination election, but I know we don't believe that, so it couldn't be.
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I'm sure the pastor will get to it eventually. And in that same church, when
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I was teaching adult Bible study, and it's a very large denomination, when we quote -unquote went through Romans, I was given 25 minutes to cover
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Romans chapters 8, 9, and 10. 25 minutes!
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Obviously, it was not intended to allow you to actually wrestle with these issues, and so I think we need to be very careful, because I don't know about you, but I know a lot of folks who are believers in Christ, they are trusting
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Him only for their salvation, but when you start probing, they might give you the wrong answers that are inconsistent, but they have never even had that shown to them.
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They've never even seen that. And so when you start asking people to be consistent, if you do it in such a way as to be encouraging them to glorify
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God in the consistency of their theology, that's one thing. And most
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Christians will respond to that and go, you know, you're right. Christ can't be glorified by my muddled thinking.
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I really do need to think about these things. That's one way of doing it that I've found to be very effective.
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The other way to do it is basically, well, I'll just use the terminology, the mean Calvinist way of doing it, and that is you use the
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Bible as a weapon, you beat somebody over the head, and say, look dude, I think you're not even regenerate, because you don't agree with what
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I believe. One of those two ways I've found is effective in introducing the truth to people, and I've seen hearts changed and lives changed, and so on and so forth.
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But the other one just basically tends to create people who think that there's something really wrong with being reformed in your theology.
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And so I think we need to just keep in mind that most of the folks that I know of simply have not been challenged.
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And let me give you a reason to be hopeful. When I did the debate with George Bryson in California.
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That was, what, a year ago, two years ago? That was early April of last year. So it's just been over a year ago.
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When I did that debate, there were a number of young men that came up to me at that debate who were coming out of Calvary Chapel churches, mainly because there was an anti -reformed backlash taking place against those who were seeing the doctrines of grace, but I also talked to those who were still in those churches, and they said, whatever you do, don't compromise.
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Explain the common misconceptions that he's going to bring out. Explain them.
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Help us to speak the truth in this context.
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We don't want to give up. And so there are those who, again, because I didn't take the approach of just dismissing them, that are fighting on.
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Eventually, are there some Calvary Chapel churches that I've heard of where basically you simply are absolutely forbidden from holding to reform views?
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Yeah, sadly, that is the case. Are there others where that's not the case? Yeah, that's true. Is there a monolithic view amongst all the
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Calvary Chapels? No, there isn't. But unfortunately, there has seemed to be over the past couple of years a backlash, and you know what?
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You know what is also feeding it now? Dave Hunt stuff. Oh, yeah. I think
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Dave Hunt would be like a perfect example of kind of what I'm referring to. I mean, I know, like you said, there are people who don't know and they haven't been challenged.
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Because for me, this guy challenged me, and it was almost a year before I even really went back to look at what he said to me.
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I understand. Before I became reformed. Well, I've talked about Dave. You know, anyone can go back through the archives of the dividing line.
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Oh, yeah, I've heard him. And anyone who does will immediately have to admit that I have sought to be as absolutely fair as I possibly could be.
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I mean, I've responded to him on the air. I've pointed out his errors. But when it came to the issue of intention and things like that,
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I've really, really tried. But I think you can probably tell that as we got into the book project, we got toward the end of that,
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I have severe frustrations in the sense that Dave has had every opportunity now to gain a correct understanding and knowledge of the issues that he claims to be proficient in addressing.
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And no matter how often I correct misapprehensions on his part, it doesn't matter in what form, in writing, in voice, whatever it is, his traditions are so strong that he simply will not hear the correction that has been offered by myself and by many others.
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And it is a lesson to all of us. And it does end up resulting in,
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I'll tell you, Dave's gotten into some very weird theology as a result of his attempt to respond against Reformed theology.
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I mean, he's tiptoed down the line of pure Pelagianism at times.
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I mean, arguing against Romans chapter 3 and the idea that Paul is here summarizing his argument that all
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Jew and Gentile are under the condemnation of sin and are not capable of doing what is pleasing to God.
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He wants the idea to be that you can do what's pleasing to God outside of the grace of God.
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And that is exceptionally dangerous stuff. And yet, I don't know of anyone other than folks on our side of the aisle that would stand up and say anything about it to him.
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So the power of tradition. And we have to be careful because we have our own traditions.
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We have to subject them to the authority of Scripture. But it's an amazing thing to see.
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So I hear what you're saying. I think the key, however, is two things.
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Is it purposeful? The issue of tradition, the issue of inconsistencies in people's theologies, people saying
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Christ alone but then not seeing that by holding to these other things they are in fact, in essence, compromising that.
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And then I guess the last thing is since we as individuals, because we still struggle with sin in our own lives, especially pride and arrogance, we,
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I think, need to really ask God to give us a special element of grace, in essence, to be very careful because it's very easy for us to get on our theological horses and run over people that don't need to be run over.
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When a kind word, a word of encouragement and a word based in Scripture would do far more than expressing our wrath towards someone.
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It's a very, very fine line to walk. It truly is. The second question would be basically something totally different.
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It's along the lines of compromise in terms of Henegraaff and this
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Rick Warren guy who is teaching anything but biblical
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Christianity. And we have Warren and Hank.
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Sorry, my wife was distracting. We have Warren and Hank. That's all right. Rich does that to me all the time.
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We have Warren and Hank talking about this book where Warren is saying we do whatever we want to do.
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We try different things. It doesn't really matter. We've done more wrong things in the church than we have right things, as if the church is kind of Christianity is a hit and miss type of thing rather than the church has already been, you know,
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God has already given us how we are to conduct ourselves and the things we are to do and Henegraaff. Yeah, I would definitely say that Rick Warren isn't exactly a fan of the regulative principle of worship, let's put it that way, and especially in regards to the nature of the church.
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I certainly would have major difficulties there. Now, I have not read those books. I certainly could have.
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I walked into a Christian bookstore a few months ago and I was absolutely flabbergasted at the number of copies of, was it the
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Purpose Driven Church? Is that the new thing that is out? 40 Days of Purpose. Something like that.
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There wasn't a theological book left in this place. But man alive, there was just, it was everywhere.
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I mean, I don't know how many copies there were in this place. I certainly could have, you know, taken the time to read it.
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So, A, I'm going to have to tell you, I have not taken the time. My understanding is it's your standard sort of seeker -friendly, purpose -driven type church situation, and I don't know a lot about him individually.
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I've heard him on the program once. Let me say that obviously, you know, you look at the
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CRI Journal, for example, and you're going to see a number of different authors from a number of different perspectives, and at least
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I can say this, I've been allowed to address a number of different topics within the pages of the
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CRI Journal, even though I am professedly Reformed in my perspective, and I appreciate that opportunity.
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Of course, the flip side of that is then you're going to have others coming from a very different perspective and sometimes addressing the same issue.
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So they have not attached a theological filter at that point to where they will only allow a certain group of people to write for the journal, because if they did,
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I probably would not get to write for the journal at all. So that's something that, you know, you can view that as positive or negative.
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I'm just throwing it out there to be considered. As far as, you know, the guests on the program, again,
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I've been on many, many times, and I'm very certain that a large number of people, and even some people who may be a part of the ministry, would probably wish that I was not.
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For example, I know there are those who would take a very different view of Roman Catholicism than I do, and yet when that subject is addressed, and ever since 1996 or so, when that subject is addressed, generally
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I'm the person, in fact, to my knowledge, I'm the only person who then addresses that subject, especially when you have a
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Catholic apologist on. And yet there are people that are on. I actually played, and I'm not sure if you heard this, but I played comments from, what was his name, there was a fellow on only about, what was it, a month, month and a half ago, where I actually played the comments of an individual who was very strongly anti -reformed in his soteriology that Hank was interviewing.
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And I played those comments in the program, and I responded to them. So you're going to find both groups on that.
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And as far as, you know, if you're asking, well, you know, should you have somebody like that on, well, it depends on what kind of…
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How could you have them on there? I mean, because you may have someone on your show, and you're obviously making the dividing line, pun intended, you're making the dividing line between yourself and them.
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What I'm more so concerned with is when Hank affirms guys like Rick Warren who,
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I mean, you know, who says it's okay for sinners to have positions in the church, and when you go, you know, a friend of mine just went to one of their youth meetings or how to be a good youth minister or, you know, something involved with the youth.
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And they would say that, as a matter of fact, the person who came, one of the people who spoke for about 20, 25 minutes at the conference, was saying,
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I'm not saved. I don't believe it. My boyfriend believes it. But at least I'm here.
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And I'm saying, no, a Christian pastor would never. I mean, that doesn't even make sense.
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Because all the gifts that we use in the body of Christ, we only have that ability because it's a supernatural gift from the
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Holy Spirit. That's what makes it so wonderful, makes it work, because it's God controlling and orchestrating everything.
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Not that he's not orchestrating a sinner, but not in the same fashion that he does a believer.
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I understand. And obviously, again, I mentioned I don't know a lot about Rick Warren.
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And if that is something that is part and parcel of his viewpoint, then that would concern me. Because that would be inconsistent with what has been said concerning what kind of church you should look for every time
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I've listened to the program myself. So that wouldn't make any sense to me. But again, I don't know that it would be wise for me to say much more about Rick Warren, because I don't know him.
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If that's the perspective, then obviously that's the exact opposite of the perspective that I would take.
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And obviously I think it would be important to bring that to Hank's attention, not so much to me.
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But I would just simply say I try to strive for a level of consistency in regards to what we do on the program.
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We don't have a lot of guests, and I'm not trying to get a lot of guests on the program myself. We now have the ability to do so a little bit more than we did before, but I'm not much of a networker.
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And one of the reasons I don't is for that very reason.
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I would rather have to answer for me than for anybody else that I have on, basically.
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So, hey, very much appreciate your call. Now, do you want me to do a quick role play with you?
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Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Well, I'll make this one very, very simple.
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I'll just make it a group. There's only about 14 people in the entire world in South Africa someplace.
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No, I won't do that. Well, let me just roll back here and say now,
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I think you mentioned you do attend a church there in California? Oh, yeah, absolutely.
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And what kind of a church is that? It's a Reformed church. A Reformed church. Reformed. That's interesting.
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Now, you'd hold to the standard beliefs of Christendom then? Standard Reformed Protestant doctrine.
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I would have to ask for you to clarify what you mean by Christendom. Well, you would be a Trinitarian.
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You would believe in the cross, things like that.
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Yes. Okay. Well, and what kind of a Bible do you use? I use a New American Standard. A New American Standard.
57:06
Hmm. I've heard about those folks. What have you heard? Well, you know, there's a lot of bias amongst
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Trinitarian Bible translators. Oh, really? I mean, let's face it. When you go so far as to change the translation of the
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Bible so that it sounds more Trinitarian, when Jesus himself said that the
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Father is greater than I am, that says a lot, don't you think?
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Wait, repeat that last statement. When we go so far as to change the translation of the
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Bible so that it sounds more Trinitarian. Well, for example, in Colossians 2 .9,
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most Bibles will say that in Jesus all fullness of deity dwells in bodily form, when it's actually, it's just simply the divine nature.
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Or, for example, translating Jesus' words before Abraham was,
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I have been, as I am, as if Jesus is the I am. Oh, you're a
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Jehovah Witness. There you go. I have been always comes in. Background applause there for Senator from California.
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All right, thanks a lot, man. Thanks for calling. Do I win the Oakley? I mean,
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I thought that was the whole purpose of the role play. Well, like I said, I can find you a good
58:40
Oakley store nearby, and I'll give you some good recommendations. I can find a good
58:45
Oakley store. As soon as Zeke's done with them. Oh, okay. Okay. Thanks for calling.
58:50
God bless. Bye -bye. Hey, thanks for calling everybody today. Tuesday morning, 11 a .m.
58:56
Mountain Standard Time, the next dividing line. We'll look for you then. God bless. That's AOMIN .org,
01:00:08
where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks. Join us again next