October 12, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White And good morning. Good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line.

It is the 12th of October Managed to get to Little Rock and back as a fast trip had a wonderful time with Pastor Lance Quinn and the folks at the

Bible Church of Little Rock never saw them the Sun other than when we climbed above the clouds That was a rough flight out of especially out of Little Rock into Dallas on one of those little puddle jumper jets because we were going right through the clouds and Man, that was like a a little mini trip to Six Flags Hadn't hadn't felt myself pushing against the the seatbelt that much

There were a couple drops there that were they were pretty intense. But anyway, we we had a good time with the folks it was one of the

Sundays when they have their care groups in the evening So I only got to preach once and and then flew right back out again.

So we're headed to Edmond, Oklahoma this coming weekend one thing Saturday Preaching all day

Sunday and then doing stuff with the staff on Monday get home Tuesday. That means next Tuesday We won't be doing the dividing line in the morning.

I don't know if it's possible to do it in the afternoon. I'll be back around 1230 on a

Tuesday, so I'll see if He who runs things on the other side of the wall is able to do anything

In the afternoon to your quarter, it's I'm not well, then the one I could do it Because I just I'm not not showing out anything, you know, a quarter saved as a quarter earned or something like that, but yeah, we'll probably do something in the afternoon anyways, and So that's that's what we'll be doing then and then actually

I'm actually get to go to my own church the weekend after that and then And well, that's odd.

Oh, you're in Channel twice. That's great Had the wrong window open for the wrong person anyway, and then we got that Peoria, Illinois suburb of Chicago and then we will be heading to Los Angeles and If you want to get those rates

Isn't isn't that isn't doesn't rate go up again like three days from now something like that or whatever the rates they're charging

Yeah, we're looking at a increase on the 15th 15 to whatever the Sheraton would normally charge and on that same day that we extended the

September Pre -purchase ticket prices as well into the 15th.

So on October 15th The ticket prices are gonna go up as well as the rates at the

Sheraton So get them get them now. I'm to get it taken care of those of you who are procrastinators and that's the majority of you need to To get that taken taken care of eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one the details on those trips and stuff are at a omen org slash

Calendar dot html if you would like to get details and if you're in those areas

It's always nice to meet folks who come in And it was very nice to meet folks there at at the

Bible Church Little Rock they had a bunch of The God who justifies and solo scripture alone and it was really neat to see all those paths stacked up next to each other because they use a

Similar layout on the cover just different colors. And so it was you know, the red and the blue it almost looked political the red the red books and the blue books and So that was that was sort of well if you didn't get that don't worry about We did have wonderful news that I do need to mention this because I was

I was driving back from Helping my son pick up his His car actually, it's the passed -down car.

It's the car that now my daughter's gonna start driving It's the it's the Nissan Sentra that cannot die it it's got about a quarter million miles on it and He's he's stalled that engine how many times he stalled that engine by overheating it at least twice that I know of Where it just died from from from from too much heat, but it keeps going

Just it passes emissions and it gets good gas mileage and I would someday

I'm gonna have to take that poor car out in the desert and take my M500 to it to kill it because it's just that it just won't die.

And So anyway, we were we're coming back from that. I was listening to Rush Limbaugh.

Yes to Rush Limbaugh and In Fact I saw a bumper sticker on line

I was looking for political bumper stickers, though I don't have any of my car cuz man, you know the people on a certain side of this election like shoot up the headquarters of the other side and and send

Union thugs in to beat people up and and Flatten your tires and key your cars if you have the wrong bumper stick

I mean, it's nasty out there and we're the ones with the guns But I saw a

I saw a bumper sticker that said even on drugs rush is right

Had to chuckle about but anyway What was what in the world was I talking about? Oh Politicals.

Oh, oh and rush was announced and this is really exciting folks. I mean you need to listen in here

Johnny Edwards Johnny Edwards has informed us this morning that if we will simply elect

John Kerry People will be getting out of their wheelchairs.

In other words, John Kerry is going to become a TV and He didn't say that but that's the only way

I could figure this out is that they were politicizing worse And I knew this was gonna happen as soon as I saw the

Christopher Reeve passed away. I knew that this was going to be happening and My daughter's gonna have a have a cow when she finds out what's being said, especially about the stem cell stuff but anyway

We were informed this morning by Johnny Edwards that That once John Kerry is president people will be walking because of stem cell research and of course that's that's the biggest crock on the planet and it just it just makes me sick that That people would be so crass and and so stupid as to say things like that but anyway, that's what's going on out there in the in the political arena and and It You know stranger things have happened.

I can just see ten years down the road turning on the Trinity Broadcasting Network and and there's

John Kerry and John Edwards are on the road and they're they're doing faith healing with Benny Hinn Hey, you know

What else what other weird stuff can happen on this in this world, it's just I didn't think we'd be

We'd be dealing with a lot of the stuff that we're dealing with but that's that's what's going on eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

You know when your debate preparation starts getting repetitious, you've probably figured out what's going on You've probably got the other position down fairly well

And it's getting repetitious I'm I've got all this federal vision stuff around me and you know, what's really weird

Do y 'all remember some well some of you don't because some of you've only started listening recently But some of you have been listening for at least a year now.

Oh That's odd First of all, it's not how it's spelled. Let me tell you

That's how it's felt Anyway about a year ago we started talking

What was it November? I think it was about November a year ago. I hope it wasn't two years ago if so, that's really going to be a

Tremendous indication of just how fast I'm aging but it was about a year ago. Maybe two that we started talking about some of the federal vision stuff and I mentioned at that time

Having listened to Schlissel and Wilson and some of the others at the 2002

Especially Schlissel's conclusions about what justification are and I was just looking at a another article. He's written and man honestly a person who listens to NT right and a person and his conclusions if you read the end of What st.

Paul really said and then you read what Schlissel saying you're gonna go Okay, they may have taken different routes to get here

But their their conclusions are the same as to what the gospel is It's the inclusion of the Gentiles in the

Covenant now, of course the issue of the nature of the Covenant and what the Covenant's based on and what better means in regards to the

Covenant is still left hanging out there and just isn't even discussed. But anyway More and more connections and I had people coming down on me because I pointed out these connections

I said now these people are coming from different directions and You know, Doug Wilson has criticized elements of new perspectivism and they put out a special Credenda agenda issue on it and we talked about that in the program and did some blog stuff and and things like that So it had to have been just last year because we haven't been blogging for a full year yet we're coming up on that real real soon and So, you know people were writing in and saying

I you know You don't understand what you talk about and that's not fair and all that stuff and I was just saying, you know when you come

To conclusions that say the same things. Okay, you came from different perspectives

There's no question that NT Wright is coming at this from a different perspective than then Schlissel is But when you end up saying the same thing at the end of the day the path you got there might be interesting for historians, but you're still saying the same thing and it's fascinating as part of you know wanting to have a

Full understanding of the exactly what all the federal visionists are saying and man some of these folks are saying some odd things

There's stuff that's going under the radar under the the moniker of of the federal vision very odd stuff

Including you know stuff about regeneration and totally redefining the words and all the rest of stuff

But I've been reading Norman Shepard and if you're you've heard the name I think

I can give you now the 30 -second Boiled down. Here's what

Norman Shepard is all about version, which I had never really heard anybody do But it's pretty simple to do actually and then

I'm I've since discovered other people have once I've figured out myself, but Boil it all down What Norman Shepard says is that the time the

Reformation the Reformers? Functioned on a faith grace paradigm and then over the next hundred and fifty years

Reformed Orthodoxy came in and shifted back to the Roman Catholic works slash merit paradigm while maintaining a belief in justification by faith and sovereign grace the result is a mishmash a inconsistent view on the part of Reformed Orthodoxy and this results in Shepard's Disagreement with and rejection of the concept of the imputation of the act of obedience of Christ and if you go

Oh, where'd that come from? You might be going. Well, wait a minute. That was one of the issues when you were doing the stuff on Mark Seyfried There you go.

That's true. And of course the what then do we end up with in new perspectivism is the total

Jettisoning jettisoning of the whole concept of imputation and there's a difference. We need to recognize the difference between jettisoning all of imputation and jettisoning part of imputation

There are different reasons for that But you start reading this stuff and you start going wow you know that person's saying the same thing that that person over there is saying and that person is

Connected with that person over there and and I don't even know that those people know they're connected with one another It's just it's fascinating to see all this stuff it truly is and so there's your brief rundown it was probably more than 30 seconds, but of Norman Shepard and he really does believe

I think that he is defending the Reformation against a Change in the

Reformation that is detrimental. It's back toward Rome this idea of works slash merit the idea being

That that's where the problem with the Covenant of Works comes in and whether the Covenant of Works is a gracious governor not a good but you know all the rest that fun stuff, so reading stuff like that, but then

You know this will tell you and we have one line taken and that means we've got lines open at eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one.

I think we always do but Some of the rhetoric and I posted some of this rhetoric on the blog this week and some people got upset that I actually quoted somebody in context and and some of these federal visionists like Cecil soar are pretty in your face with what they say and People wonder you know why should

I care about this because a lot of the issues Let's face it a lot of the issues are inter -presbyterian issues the

Reformed Baptists Cannot spin off federal visionists. It's not possible

You would have to simply Abandon the London Baptist Confession because of what it says to hold these positions.

Yes, what that's just all there is to it And so this isn't an issue amongst Reformed Baptists it can't be because of our view of the

New Covenant and Even though we are the London Baptist Confession is covenantal in its view

Because of its view of the New Covenant it this just doesn't fit within our paradigm. That's just all there is to it So people will still say so then why are you worried about all of this stuff?

Well, let me read you just one one Maybe maybe two

Paragraphs here to give you an idea of of what I mean This is from a book called the federal vision edited by Steve Wilkins and Dwayne Garner Published by Athanasius Press out of Monroe, Louisiana.

Do you wonder where's from? This Steve's Russell's chapter in this book page 244

It's 328 do you know where your verses are is the subtitle and You know, it is fun coming up with those really funny

Subtitle type things but let me just say something if if any of these books start getting close

To Scott Hahn's book on Mary. I'm gonna go ballistic. I'm gonna go postal. That's just all there is to it

Okay, so let's just this is you know, this is about as close as we can get. It's 328. Do you know know where your verses are?

Galatians 328 and Romans 328 our verses which have oft been extorted from their contexts stripped of their authors intent dressed in the style of their captors and Reduced to servitude in contrived systems

If anyone should speak of restoring the verses to their original settings the taskmasters scurry to their battlements and snipe

That's understandable. I suppose after all it's hard to find good servants. Their lords are loath to let them go that's that's

Steve's Russell and I mentioned in Speaking of him on my blog.

I was reading or Or posting quotes from him in his response to Reverend Phillips That were just simply well

In your face, okay. That's all there was to it. They're rhetorical. They're you know if I leave this place believing such -and -so will someone please shoot me and and you know, just just well, just sort of how

Steve's Russell tends to write at times and he gets very Excited and I've had a lot of folks who are in that movement say well you just have to understand

He's he's Jewish and as if that somehow that almost racist statement actually meant something. But anyway

You read this stuff and you go, you know when you realize that what's being said here is in reference to Those statements from the

Auburn Avenue Conferences where he identified Luther's statement. The justification is the the article of the standing or falling church, that's who we and hogwash and That justification is nothing more than Jews and Gentiles together in one covenant

Then you know who he's talking about here. He's talking about pretty much the entirety of Protestant Orthodoxy and certainly

Warfield and Murray and and all these people and certainly I would fall in that category And so when you read that and you you see yourself in essence and and those that you believe to have been great servants of God described as taskmasters a scurrying to their battlements and sniping and the idea of extorting scripture texts and stripping them of their authors intent and Dressing them in the style their captors and then of course as soon as you as you try to go

Well, let's go into the context and let's do some exegesis here. What you get is. Oh you Hellenist Seeking for the you're you're you're just proof texting.

You've got to listen to story. It's narrative It's not just text and and you never get anywhere

So there really doesn't seem to be a whole lot you can do about that particular situation other than just simply say That's not really how it works

And and but it's very frustrating to read this stuff because I'm used to reading this stuff except when I read it for the past Decade and a half it was by Roman Catholics It was the

Roman Catholics who were saying those things and as part of their Apologetic against justification by grace through faith alone forensic justification the imputation the righteousness of Christ now

That's not that's to be expected And now you get all these other folks who you thought were you know fighting alongside you and actually you've got incoming from their direction

Now too, and it's like whoa. That's really odd, and if you say that then How dare you say that if you just heard me saying that these people are are

Actually, just you know Roman Catholics hiding or something. I didn't say that I said now all of a sudden these same issues are being addressed in the same way and Somehow we are precluded and told we're mean -spirited nasty and terrible if we dare mention that But it's true.

No instead of you know, okay, go ahead and call me nasty for mentioning it now Will you deal with the reality of what

I said? Is that not true? Is that not the same objections have been made being made for a long period of time?

How does yours differ? What's what's the what's the difference here? And so anyway? Han is the living embodiment

Misspelled but it's spelled embodiment of the phrase more Catholic than the Pope even uses a new

Catholic deodorant Which is spelled incorrectly as well. Well, that's All I was talking about if you didn't see it if you didn't hear it if you can go back in the archives and Straight gate and listen to the review.

I did of his book on Mary and It had the most cheesy

Campy Horrible subtitles that were just I mean fourth grade

Bad humor it was that's what I was referring to so anyway 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is a phone number that Brian in Cincinnati called

Hello, Brian. How are you? Good James? How are you? I'm pretty good. Who's being killed in the background Oh my two -year -old daughter your two -year -old your daughter is in the background.

Okay. Yeah, I'm sorry She's on her way upstairs Hey, thanks for taking it. I like she was coming downstairs way too fast there for a second.

Yeah, right I've got a I'd love to get your comments on something.

That is It looks like it's epidemic and it's really surprised me in the last few months

It seems that and I'm not going to name denominations because I'm sure it did crosses denominations

But it seems to me that there's an enormous amount of plagiarism happening with ministers and I Got my hands on a

CD of a recent message by a local Baptist minister again I won't name the particular church, but you know, it sounded a little bit

I don't know for some reason. I just felt like doing a Google and some of the phrases I heard and I found multiple websites with his message exact points exact translations or paraphrases that were used and You know the fact that I'm seeing this all over the place tells me it's epidemic and I I know your ministry

I've read your books or at least a lot of them and I know how you feel about this But I'd love to get your comments and am

I just late to the dance here Has this been going on longer than I realized? Honestly, I I heard someone talking about this weekend

In fact, they talked about someone who had been dismissed from their church about it and and I was like, oh, that's that's interesting

It's not something that I've done any reading on it's not something that that, you know strikes me as as being overly surprising in light of well, look at how many churches have have done the the

PDL stuff and and the the days of purpose stuff and as result part of part of the

The idea is that you do what works and if sermon

X works in 80 % of the churches and an 80 % of the population then use sermon

X and So it doesn't surprise me a whole lot on on that level Especially because the fact that once you're pragmatically driven in your view of the church and your view of preaching the view of the ministry

There really isn't anything wrong with that. I mean, why not? use a you know,

I canned sermon that someone else has developed and if it's going to work as long as the the result is

You know X amount of success then that's what people are going to do and you know, it's funny

I was mentioning over the weekend to the fine pastor I was with that we do some odd things at our church and one of the things is that we we go through the

Psalter on Wednesday evenings and I've noticed I've known for years that Don Frye when he does that He never

Keeps his notes. And so even though we've gone through the Psalter over and over and over and over again He never keeps his notes.

So when he comes back to Psalm 47 having been through Psalm 47, you know a dozen times before He's not looking back at something that he did before he's approaching it fresh again

In fact, I mentioned that when when my fellow elder turned 60 he decided he needed a new challenge

And so he stopped using notes at all. He does not carry notes into the pulpit So he has to know what he's worked on all week

So well that even the cross references and extra references and things like that That's all a part of something that he studied now, of course what that one of the problems here is is

That in a Reformed Baptist Church, you don't have 16 million Programs going on and the elder who's preaching is not the

CEO He's actually in his job is actually to preach and It would be impossible for most pastors in most churches who are

Involved much more with Politics and running programs and keeping things together

It would be impossible for them to do the kind of preaching that is done in our church simply because they are

Responsible for so much more and so once you once over the

Generations over the decades. Anyways, the idea of the pastor has evolved away from an exegete and let's face it

Brian in most seminaries today a lot of seminaries are dropping original language studies as Requirements or just reducing them to how to use, you know computer program

That'll let you look up a word or do a word search or something like that Once you don't even have classes on hermeneutics anymore then the people coming out of that are not going to be people who are going to be taking any kind of and I use this term the proper way pride in Handling the

Word of God and working hard on the Word of God anyways, and so why not go grab somebody else's material that resulted in X number of baptisms and You know

Why not do that? There's the the the stigma of that Would only be if you tell people that you're not but you are if you're just open and saying, you know what

I use all sorts of online resources and You know, I look at what a lot of people say then for most people would be like who cares, you know

That's great as long as it works. So in a pragmatic world Who would care?

You know who would who would really have a basis for saying that that's wrong, of course from my perspective

But I recognize. Hey, I am out of the mainstream. I am NOT in the mainstream. There is no absolutely no question about it

I ain't the mainstream and ain't looking at getting back into it. Anyway, so That is interesting and But it doesn't surprise me in the slightest really doesn't yeah.

Well, I appreciate your comments. And yeah, that's what I was afraid of So I can't comment on how widespread is because I really honestly don't know

I just I have no concept because When I travel I it's because I'm going someplace to speak

So I don't the only person I really get to hear preach very often is is Don Frye So either

I'm the one doing the preaching which is which is a really depressing thing Or I get to hear someone who really knows what they're doing

So I I really don't keep up with that kind of stuff and so I don't know how widespread it is But it would not surprise me in the slightest.

Yeah. Well, hey, thank you again. Okay, right. All right. God bless eight seven seven seven five three thirty three

Forty -one. Let's talk with John. Hi John Hey, Dr. White.

How are you? Oh, hey, John. How are you? Very good. Oh, jolly good. I missed your call

Oh, I tried to give you a call when I was at the airport. Yeah, I was sleeping I wasn't gonna take the tube, you know,

I can't take the tube all the way to Little Rock You know the tube is a oh, yeah I found out about that because I'm going to England in March, you know

And and they said that we could probably take the tube someplace and I thought oh, that's do I have to carry the tube?

Is it a big tube? What color is the tube? And then they I realized it was it was the subway Yeah Absolutely, right.

Oh, it's really good. Yeah, it's really good. I Tell you what, I wanted to give a comment about your new book

Scripture alone. I thought it was fantastic. It is fantastic and I'm recommending it left right and center to all the folks at our church

People on the left ain't gonna like it. No But that's okay, that's all right, it's a phenomenal what you attempted to do

I think you did so so well and it's I mean I read it thinking I don't need to write a book on this subject

This is it You know, you know the last person who said that to me was was

Hank anagraph every every time I every every time I'm on in fact,

I've heard him even when I wasn't on people would call in about the King James only controversy Yeah, and he keep telling the story about how he was going to write a book on the

King James only converse He already an acronym put together and then I wrote my book and therefore he didn't have to do it

Yeah, just recommend yours. It'll save a lot of time Well, I'm I'm glad you you got hold of it and Now the here's the real question though John did the book encourage you to get hold of Certain other books that are frequently referred to in the text and the footnotes very much

In fact, I have most of them especially the Holy Scriptures series by Webster and King.

Yeah And it just encouraged me to go deeper into that. Yeah, okay Well, that's I wanted to make sure to do that because I really feel especially

The modern work David King and William Webster's work. I wanted to try to get that in there

So that's maybe some folks would look for it. Yeah, it's not easy necessarily to track down at times But I know

Amazon does carry it and stuff So I was hoping that that message would get across and you know the other thing

I point out would be that yours bridges the gap because there's only a certain type of person who would

Dig as deeply as as Webster and King have right to that material. I think for them for the person is not

Really encouraged to read, you know, several thousand pages on the subject. It really gets their foot in the water

Well, that's that's what I want to do. That's really really what I want to accomplish I realize that a majority of my audience

This is as far as they're going to go despite my encouragement to do Just simply because of you know

Where they are in their life and what their context is and if I can give them a solid foundation there my hope would be if they do become challenged from any of the myriad of directions from which attacks against the the perspicuity of scripture and the sufficiency scripture come

But at least they'd have that foundation and know where to go from there if they need more information Well, you accomplished that very well.

Well good Here's my here's my question for you. Um, just to explain to anyone listening if there is anyone listening

There are there are in fact in the channel. They were complaining tremendously about the beginning of the phone call.

Yes Yeah They were saying my side or your side the my side and they were saying that that was act actually then

I'm an Aussie Not not English now you would know because your wife is Aussie. Yeah That was an

Aussie that was more English than Aussie or was it neither one it was mid -atlantic Sort of like the

Titanic that's where I should go down right there I would describe myself as a reformed

Baptist pastor with charismatic tendencies and When you you're a good friend of mine and you've preached at our church and you're welcome anytime and I Very much value your ministry, as you know and in reading your book.

There was one Question that I had that I'm sure will be something you and I would discuss and I thought well the best place to catch is on your program and that was your chapter on the

Lord spoke to me saying was about Suddenly the the idea of God speaking in clear ways today and you were certainly addressing that that issue

I wonder if you could just look at a couple of verses in first Corinthians 14 and Just give your comments on it and just to just to kind of explain where I'm coming from and and what you really think about I think when someone writes a book you can always assume, you know what they mean, but Thank the

Lord. We've got the opportunity to ask you what you mean? And in first Corinthians 14 just in verses 29 and 30 and Reading the

New American Standard and let two or three prophets speak and let the others pass judgment But if a revelation is made to another who is seated the first one must keep silent, which is not really

Earth shattering at this point, but what what I've certainly seen in that Text is the difference between the

Old Testament and the new and the Old Testament as I understand it The prophets were 100 % accurate with the very words of God God put his words in their mouth never were those words to be sifted or Evaluated on the part of God's people yet in the

New Testament, we're actually told to sit and wait and pass judgment I Also look at the scriptures like Acts 2 which is the fulfillment of Joel 2 about sons and daughters

All of them shall prophesy old man dreaming dreams young man visions Yet here we have in verses 29 30 not only passing judgment

But you've got the idea as I see it in verse 30 of One fellow speaking another

Suddenly he's sitting by has something revealed to him or to her. I believe it's the word apocalypto

Then the second person I guess would signal that in some way. I'm trying to read between the lines

Perhaps it's stand up and say indicate he's got something to say and then what Paul says is well if that takes place the first guy should finish his prophecy and Immediately sit down be silent and allow the second person to speak and I say all that because it seems to me that Prophecy in the

New Testament is on a much Lower level than in the old all seems to be actually

I'm concerned that the first prophecy may be lost forever and even unfinished and My point in saying all this is a long spiel

I realized but if these were God's actual words like in the Old Testament Through a prophet to the church.

I believe it would be important there for the church to hear every word yet. Paul is saying Something very different I believe if the

New Testament prophets had been thought to speak with absolute divine authority like they did in the

Old Testament attaching and God Authority to their words. I don't know how

I could understand those two verses and so my understanding of God speaking it is is

Very different I think in the New Testament. I just like your comments on that. Yeah. Well, obviously whatever

Apocalypto means there and what the the role of first of all, this is within the context of the of the gathered church yeah, that's the first thing to note and There there seems to as you you point out.

There's this obviously is is differing from the the prophet who says thus saith the

Lord in in the Old Testament and in 31 you have this the whole point being

You know, well just read 31 32 for you can all prophesy one by one so that all may learn and all may be

Exhorted and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets for God is not a god of confusion

But of peace is in all the churches of the Saints You know some people would actually say that last phrase isn't all the churches of Saints should be connected in fact in the

Greek text It's edited this way to be connected to the next verse as in all the churches of Saints The women are to keep silent which could raise all sorts of arguments on that point, too

Right, but the point is that it's it's referring to order And it's referring to order within The worship service which evidently

Corinth was having a fair amount of problems with on many different levels Not only with the Lord's Supper, but but here in regards to What was taking place during the course of of the worship itself?

And so whatever this? This prophesying is it results in Manzano in in verse 31 that is in learning and it takes the form of Paracleto par the the exhortation

Also in in verse 31 so that I think provides the proper limitation for what we're looking at here

Because it results not in The authoritative you know proclamation of I'm bringing

Babylon down against Judea to punish her etc. Etc. Etc. Or Messianic prophecies or anything along those lines

Instead you have learning and exhortation the idea being that this learning is this learning new things beyond What is a part of the the gospel message?

Or is it learning as we do and must continue to redo in our churches today?

and that also takes us back to the question is first Corinthians 14 a passage that gives us a a glimpse of That period of time when scripture is still being written in the early church, or is it normative?

after scripture has been written and all the issues that come up with that and that goes back to the tongues issue and you know all the rest that stuff but Leaving that off the side for the moment, whatever this is it results in learning and exhortation now you could say that of Isaiah when

I when Isaiah 53 was first given you those people who first heard it learned and were exhorted thereby

I would assume But when Paul uses those words Especially we can look at them as they're used in in in the pastorals and things like that They seem to have more of an application within the context of the gathered church of what we would normally understand to mean these things it's interesting that In first Corinthians you you really don't see much

About the organization of the church at this point as far as the offices are concerned.

Yeah and even in first Corinthians five or the second

Corinthians five You have church discipline taking place but unlike the pastoral epistles

You don't see the role of the elders and things like that in that and so Corinth seems to throw a lot of curves at at any

Establishment of it as normative in light of what we see going on in the pastoral epistles and and Paul's saying that Timothy okay, you know,

I'm now at the end of my life and and Here's the stuff that that you need to make sure is communicated to the churches

Here's here's what the second generation after the Apostles are off the scene.

This is what they need to be focused upon This is what's going to allow the church to have the foundation to press forward as you go into a you know

A different time period in essence In in the future. So with all that with all that said

I would certainly agree that whatever Apocalypto means in in first Corinthians 1430 that it would it would fall into the category of what

I was referring to When I kept asking in the in the dialogues in the discussions in the chapter referring to yeah

What is it you're talking about here? What when you say, you know when we hear people say thus says the

Lord What is that? What is is is that this is this is this what we're talking about?

That's certainly In here in first Corinthians has to be subjected to other people's examination

Which would seemingly indicate that there had to be someone who stood up and said that's wrong

Which would be those in authority? I would hope I would hope but you know, that's what's odd about about Corinthians is is that you don't see that You know discussion of those particular individuals in this particular context does that mean that you know

Paul's work there wasn't completed We know from church history That the

Corinthians what are they famous for after the point of the New Testament? They're famous for Clement Representing the elders at Rome having to write to them

Yeah, and the reason that the church at Rome had to write to the Corinthians is they'd kick their elders out

Improperly. Yeah, and we're in rebellion. Yeah, and so that was probably only 30 years 30 40 years

After this time period so that is one place where church history might you know shine a little bit of a of a light on on such issues here, too, so There does seem to be something here

That is in reference to People who are who are involved in exhortation that then would be connected with what comes after this about women

And in a lot of charismatic churches that part goes goes bye -bye big -time and There is even in this where you have multiple people and it uses

Pontos it uses you can all prophesy One by one so there's a strange he's trying to bring order what

I think certainly in the text here is that you know through all of Chapters 12 through 14 is there's an abuse obviously of the gas taking place.

No It's interesting what he does as I see it. He does not stop the use of the gifts

He stops the abuse of them and then directs their use and says this is how you should should use those gifts

Yeah, the real issue concerning Gifts and you know

I I thought I was a a Hardcore cessationist until I discovered that you met me right and no no no no

Seriously, it was when I found out and I'm not gonna go into details here some people will know what the story is but yeah

There was someone who was brought up on charges in a denomination that I will not mention for preaching one of the charges was that he preached that elders are

Specially gifted by God to do the work of the ministry to which they're called hmm, and That was something was considered chargeable.

Hmm, and That's when I discovered that that is a hardcore And I'm like I What?

So so I'm hypersensational. I guess the Holy Spirit went on a vacation or something

He's I don't know what he's doing if he's not doing that But the issue of course going to to the identification and really to me the issue is what is the function of the gifts and is there a basis in Scripture for identifying certain gifts as having certain functions

That are always normative for the church And is there such a thing as gifts that were functional at certain periods of time most people though not all

Would agree for example with the issue that the apostleship

As as an office was a temporary gifting that that it had a function and that function no longer exists and therefore it is not a

Continuing office in the church most people would agree that some people use terms apostles and things like that But but most people do not yeah

Well how far do you go with that and that's where the argument comes in and that's where the issue of you know What was the function of for example tongues and things like that?

Don't even say there are apostles today, but Hopefully in their mind. I've seen them as less of an authority than the twelve

I mean just to be an apostle is well In fact they're at least what 15 to 18 right in the

New Testament who identified with that particular term But no writing scripture like the Apostles were yeah, and the one might make the argument

I've never sat down to really work through all this, but that the for that to the the addition of The phrase of the

Lord apostles of the Lord would distinguish the twelve from yeah Those who simply had an office of forth telling or something like that absolutely you know things like that.

There's all sorts of Areas of discussion that come into this yeah, but my my real concern was to in in that particular section was not to really get into the the whole argument that that exists regarding what terminology we should necessarily use for the difference between Well certainly

Inspiration I think is a term we need to be very very careful about but enlightenment and things like that But to really go to the fact that there are so many today that are utilizing terminology

That while their church might outwardly seek to resist

False teachers and and and those who would have extra scriptural books and things like that their functional

Terminology destroys their ability to consistently do so mm -hmm, and They don't seem to realize that and hence are very

Susceptible to losing members to Whatever new group comes along that has a new super apostle who has the cool hair and the nice music and Miracles and things like that and your work as an apologist it makes your alarm bells goes up It does because oh yeah if we're saying the same things that the

Latter -day Saints are saying and that's our foundation Just saying different things, but that's the foundation and we're in a lot of big weeds and that you know and that was

That was something that I learned early early on when I first started and since you mentioned the

Mormons You know when they gave their their testimonies mm -hmm.

I couldn't help at the time being in a church where The the statement was made over and over again in the church

When you're out on outreach and Somebody asks you a question on the answer to don't worry about it.

Just give your testimony Oh boy, and you know I understand for a new believer.

You know that's one thing But that was being said to everybody yeah, you know it wasn't followed up with if you don't have the answer

Give your testimony and then dig into the Word of God and say I'll come back to you with a more mature believer that I can

Give you a fuller. You know it wasn't added to that the idea was hey As long as you say this is what

Jesus did for me. That is more than a sufficient answer and I understand the the Emotional element of that because you don't want to say there's really anything more important than what then who

Christ is and what he's done but the fact the matter is If that was the viewpoint of the

Apostles who wouldn't have the majority of the New Testament It wouldn't have bothered talking about this stuff to begin with so you know that really really concerned me, so Yeah, I I don't

I'm trying to remember now because it was only it was only a matter of about a year ago now

Maybe a little less than a year that I was writing that section and and I I honestly don't think

I had you in mind brother Because that's really the heart of it. I want to know in your mind whether you think someone like myself is

Violating something that's very precious to my heart that sola scriptura When well you know brother.

I you know me, and I've I've never ever ever Been one of those folks who tries to take the role of the

Holy Spirit for you, right you know and absolutely gracious and Amazing about it all, but I wonder deep in your heart if someone poked you well

I haven't had the opportunity of actually Being in the service when

I wasn't preaching right so I haven't had the opportunity of watching Exactly what goes on and exactly you know how that type of situations handled

Obviously I try very very hard to differentiate between that which

I am quote -unquote accustomed to yeah, and that which I would then have the right to to forcefully say is

Necessary for the maintenance of the proper worship of God those are two different things, and I know that absolutely and I have said many many times

God didn't make us to be cookie cutters There there are there is a tendency.

I think amongst some of us reform folks to to fall into the trap of thinking that Unless another church looks exactly like mine and sings the exact same songs therefore something's got to be wrong there

I don't believe that and I couldn't believe that given the places where I speak and and the opportunities

I have there at the same time. I really do believe that there is a tremendous

Need for much more concern on the part of people about subjecting our

Fleshly that the tendency of our fleshly desires to get in the way of the proclamation of God's truth fully agree and The issue of how

God is worshipped should be much more on the front burner the problem is in my experience and again

I'm just being in my experience for most folks Especially again I can only really refer to reformed folks here because I Didn't hear much discussion about this when

I wasn't in the reformed camp, but yeah, but still when now that I am there Sadly we frequently approach this from the from the perspective of well

I think we do it right already and so my biggest concern is to just protect

What we are doing and so I'm gonna cast doubts upon you if you do something different What we do in fact it just sort of funny.

We we decided believe it or not This is this is a big announcement here, so try to try to you know you're sitting down.

I am sitting down good We did something different in our worship service on Sunday.

Oh my and It's it's it's some of our folks are still still reeling from it But instead of there's gonna be a vote on Wednesday night.

There's gonna be a vote on whether Oh Both elders are in trouble is that we were telling me can't have changes can't have changes, okay?

What we did here's here's the massive change. We did As you know when the when the offering is taken.

Yeah, it's after prayer, and it's quiet Yeah, now that's unusual for most churches. Yeah We actually and there's actually two things we actually sang a hymn

During the offering while sitting down Now we never sing sitting down So that was the first thing and we and and rich here

The the the voice you just heard yeah rich was confessing that he was struggling on How to hold the hymnal and pass the plate at the same time he felt that was a big challenge

This is this is an issue This is an issue I mean, it's disruptive

PowerPoint and got over that oh well see now that You know we would there was

PowerPoint in the church. I was at Sunday for the words the music yeah now

I will say one thing here, and you you do the same thing right yes There's one.

It's only one thing that bothers me about one thing I like about it is that people have their heads up. They can actually sing you can actually breathe and all the rest that stuff

There's only one thing I don't like about it There's no music I don't know all those songs and so a visitor is left going you know for the first three three

Choruses or something and only on the last one can I actually sing and even then? The other thing and this shows how completely out of me because I can't read music anyway well

But you can sing well, and I and and I sing the bass part Yeah, and I can't sing the bass part without music there right and so I I wish there was a way of combining the two so that's

But I'm just old -fashioned that way I mean I've actually tried during some of our hymn sings to try to talk with folks about how to sing how to breathe sing the vowels

Not the consonants You know just basic. I took voice for a couple years most people wouldn't believe that but I did many many moons ago, and I love singing the great old hymns of faith and and Having the the the harmony and and all the rest of stuff you can't do that when you don't have music

That's right, so so there's blue tradition out of the water there and Wonderful well,

I haven't experienced it yet, so I'm I'm not even get to this weekend It's going to be the weekend after that before I can even experience this revolutionary new thing unless tomorrow night

We are all the elders removed because we do change tradition, so It's just a kind of raffle.

It's really quickly as we go to that um you're going to is it Oklahoma next week I'm going to Edmond, Oklahoma Yeah, yes

Is there a way in your thinking just based on what you're saying in the book what you said in that chapter is there a way?

if God wanted to Communicate something to you about not getting on the plane could he do that?

Well, there's no there's no question you know there's I I would differentiate between saying does

God have the ability and Should that be something that I do it in this dispensation can he again?

I don't differentiate between saying God can right and what his normative means are yeah

You see what concerns me is people who are looking who look at life as if they're looking for omens

Right as if they're looking for well, you know My I have a flat tire this morning, and that probably indicates that I shouldn't change it and get on the plane

Listen, I've met people that had a green sock and a red sock on because the Lord told them That that's what they should wait see that's that's my concern

Yeah, my my concern is that is not that that God could not do that if for some reason he chose to completely

Change his normative way of doing this then then fine But you see my concern is is that if I'm constantly looking for some supernatural message in that way, right?

I think that short -circuits godly wisdom and the and the creation of godly wisdom whereby by the reflection of of God's truth the the the constant meditation upon God's truth that I develop godly wisdom and that that wisdom is the means by which

He would have me to glorify him in the decisions that I make and so I would never say that God could not do what?

he's done in the past the issue for me is what is his word say is the normative means by which he is going to guide his people today and the answer to that for me is through through my examination of scriptures and my growth and grace and my seeing the the whole of Christian truth and Applying that to the everyday aspects of my life

I fully understand. I fully agree. I just wanted if you would Allow for it in this and I think you've answered that question

Yeah, I can't that there's no way that I could say there's you know, someone will say well, you know if God wanted if if when you go to Singapore next year

And God wanted you to speak something Could he give the ability to speak something to someone

God did that in the past God has that capacity? Yeah, am I am

I gonna be going there going? I wonder if that's gonna happen I wonder, you know, should I should I maybe do some pronunciation exercises, you know, should

I loosen my tongue? You know that type of that's that's where I go. See there's there's the difference from my perspective

I would never say God can't do that the question is does the Word of God lead me to expect that that's what's going to be taking place in a normative fashion and You know, there are certain channels out here between 20 and 22 there.

That's exactly what you you know, right what you expect is you're told to expect that, right?

And when it doesn't happen, you're disappointed. Yeah, so, you know, that's a whole whole different area there.

So I really appreciate you taking the time and I appreciate your comments and I'm very much one with you

I just wanted to make sure I understood you. Well, brother, you know, I love you. And yeah, you know, that's You know,

I tremendously appreciate how encouraging you are and I hope that the few times

I've had chance to speak the word there at your church has been a blessing to your people. Absolutely. You're welcome anytime All right.

God bless brother. Thanks for calling. Thanks for listening to the Voting Line today. We'll be here Thursday Evening 7 p .m.

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