December 10, 2020 Show with Roderick Edwards on “About Preterism: The End Is Past”

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There is an interesting phenomenon in the body of Christ that continues to divide brothers and sisters and that is the area of eschatology known as preterism and today we are going to be discussing for the second time for the second time in 12 years this issue with my guest today

Roderick Edwards who is a former full preterist also known by its critics as a former hyper preterist and he is the author of about preterism the end is past and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after a very long absence

Roderick Edwards. Thank you so much for the opportunity it's almost 12 years to the day

I think it was December 12th last time. Wow. I appreciate it in an effort that we're putting forward.

Right and that was not even planned to be that close to the exact date that just happened in Providence to turn out that way.

Well Roderick why don't you give us some of your background as far as your even though you may have done this 12 years ago it's been so long why don't you give us a summary of your salvation testimony including what kind of religious atmosphere if any you were raised in and what kind of circumstances our sovereign

Lord providentially raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Definitely well

I'm 52 years old that way we can put a number to that and it was at age 16 or so I believe

I was saved was the phrase we like to use because that's the time when

I actually had gone through like most teenagers do through a period of feeling like the world was against me and I felt like I was at the end of my ropes

I had my parents had divorced I was adopted at age four and just everything seemed like it was going badly and so at the very moment

I was contemplating what a young kid to do is a suicide attempt I opened the

Bible which really I've gone to Sunday school a few times but never really had much upbringing in Christianity my parents were not

Christian so I opened the Bible which I'd found in my dad's basement in a cabinet it looked like it had never been used

I think it was left there by their previous occupants and I started reading through it and I prayed to God the way obviously all know that God is a

God if this is true help me understand this and obviously I want to get to the crux of the issue really quickly so I read some of the

Old Testament and some of the New Testament what was interesting is I found out that a lot of the stories in the Old Testament were the same stories in the

New Testament and nobody taught me this especially the one about raising up the golden calf in the wilderness when they looked upon I'm sorry the serpent and when they looked at the serpent they were saved from the the vice and I seen that obviously as the analogy of Christ being raised up and nobody taught me so I was amazed like oh my god this is just amazing and and there

I basically broke down in tears and gave my life to Christ and said you're truly true God and things got changed around from there and like most people

I went through a various degree of denomination from fundamental Baptist to Presbyterian and from Reformed Baptist and and then eventually wind up in what

I liked at least for my own soul is Reformed Presbyterian the Covenanters if you know as the

Scottish realm yes the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America is the official title of the denomination correct and so that's why

I ended up because I really this really speaks to me because it's no nonsense it's just studying the Bible not saying that they're the right ones but for me it's good they sing the psalms so therefore

I know that the the hymns or whatever I'm singing is not some man -made I don't have to question the doctrine because unfortunately

I've all my life I've been a data analyst most of my career and so I tend to analyze everything it said and unfortunately it gets in my way sometimes because I'm analyzing hymns when

I'm singing them like that doesn't sound biblical contradict so I'm thankful that they sing just the psalms well

I'm sorry that's my background and that yeah well today we are discussing a very controversial issue and I have to give a caveat to our audience today the subject at hand is going to involve things that my guest and I both agree over and also may disagree over I happen to be a partial preterist unlike most partial preterists that I know

I am not post -millennial I am an amillennialist although I am not dyed in the wool about a lot of my eschatological views

I just know for certain that I believe in a visible physical return of Christ and a visible physical bodily resurrection of the dead that is still in our future and I believe that those issues as my guest does are absolutely essential and crucial for biblical

Christianity but where we part company is that I believe my guest has departed from preterism altogether but he can further clarify that himself and if you could why don't you define preterism first and foremost well obviously you've mentioned that distinction between partial preterism and full preterism and that my book is called about preterism because I want to cover both aspects so preterism obviously advocates that all the discourse about the eschatology about Jesus saying that the times are at hand and the destruction of the temple and his return are in the past most preterists even partial preterists would say yes to some degree yes in the past and then they have to go on to define how it's still future how the things you just mentioned are still future to us but hyper preterists will say or full preterists will say no that's all in the past and they'll even go further and talk to you about more things that are in the past which is maybe pastors and you know all kinds of things are in the past so here's the distinction between partial preterism and full preterism and you mentioned that I don't consider myself any kind of preterist

I'm not certain I agree with you to me at least in my path of being a full preterist find yourself a partial preterist at least people

I interact with set you up immediately to be attacked or or hostile from full preterist because the whole time talking how you can't be consistently a partial preterist so I just like to say no

I'm a historically Christian I know it's not it's very vague but I like to start there that way kind of disarms immediately right but obviously uh there are people in cults that say the same thing so there is a difficulty that we who are

Christians face in that using labels can become problematic when people misunderstand those labels and they have a slanderous or caricatured association with those labels presuppositions that are false when it comes to those labels obviously since we are both

Calvinists we know that many many many people who are opposed to Calvinism especially those that are the most vehemently opposed to it typically totally misunderstand it and very often these same folks have only read the works that critique uh

Calvinism they've never read some of them never read a single page of a single book by a

Calvinist so it's one of those things where that can be a difficulty and also just saying well

I'm just a Bible -believing Christian well yeah so the so do the Mormons and so do the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that and so does all kinds of folks so we're never completely in an area of safety or uh preventing confusion or disagreement when we are trying to defend and explain what we believe but uh that's the reason why

I usually use the word historical Christian that way they immediately what does that mean at least we we get on to the realm of history as to how it there's a canoe of continuity of Christianity even through the denominations there's a continuity and then

I can get to that point usually with them well uh tell us about how you came to first hear about preterism and it is interesting that uh as far as my experience most preterists at least those that I have met and heard about uh have come from two different backgrounds and in fact many would consider these two very different backgrounds and yet they have found commonality in uh partial or hyper preterism the latter of which

I think is a heresy uh that is they have either come from theologically reformed backgrounds or on the other end of the spectrum from a restorationist or Campbellite background otherwise known as the

Churches of Christ uh Christian churches uh but actually even more predominantly the

Churches of Christ those that are acapella in their worship strictly acapella which actually uh so are the

Covenant or Presbyterians but um it is interesting that uh as they say this subject makes strange bedfellows now have you found what

I just said to be true yes I mentioned that specifically in the book matter of fact many of the so -called leaders of the full prayers movement are directly from the

Churches of Christ and we'll get into it maybe a little further but there was a meeting in Mount Dora Florida which is near where I am right now back in I think 1991 and I still have the dates right before me somewhere then maybe 96 uh between R .T.

Sproul Sr. uh Max King and some of the other guys in the theological movement there trying to see what what he was saying and so you have this crossover between the reformed and the restoration reformed obviously don't want to throw everything out they want to fix the things that were broken whereas restoration believes that something went wrong and had to restore so I see that and it's in the book so this so tell us more about this meeting how you discovered preterism and how it you know what were the developments in your life and in your thinking as far as embracing it and did you begin as a partial preterist as I am right now or did you go immediately or at least quickly into full -blown hyper -preterism well

I think many of the people who've become preterist today obviously have influences from now that you have many preterists have written books and things like that full preterist however when

I was becoming a preterist which is back in the early 1990s there weren't a lot of books by anyone about this topic um

I happened to be reading of all people John Owen's the death of death and death of Christ you know because I was

I reformed history at the time I was probably reformed and still am but anyhow as I read that I began to think as much with my analyst analyst background and logical background as well the death is the last enemy and John Owens is saying it's already been defeated

I erroneously concluded almost a preterist view but I didn't know what I was they didn't have a name for me at the time so I started getting on the internet looking does anybody else believe this am

I just this crazy guy believing this and concluding this or is it possible true and I was able to go ahead and and consider that because I came from a fundamental baptist background where they would tell me many things that were not true and I would have to research and find out they were telling me untruth so I was okay with being possible that I didn't know something and could be wrong dramatically but then

I found online the preterist and yes I was ushered in pretty quickly into full preterism because I my first contact was with guys like Ed Stevens and Don Preston so I was pretty quickly ushered into that and uh when you came uh to believe in this concept uh tell us how it in practical terms affected your christian life your day -to -day activities and mindset your view of other christians outside of that movement give us some kind of a overall sense of where this may have changed other things other than your eschatology right well we and it will anybody's trying to tell you preterism is just about eschatology it won't change much they're they're not telling you the truth or they don't understand completely or something because it does change everything but let me get back a little bit you said calvinism now we've seen new calvinists and calvinists that get into calvinism without knowing much of the background they don't even know that that calvin hadn't had nothing to do with this five points that was the council of dork calvin had been dead long before that was there enough but you have these new calvinists and they go off half cocked and they you know they think they're the they beat their chest and they think they're the world's debasement everything else i don't think i went that far when i became a preterist but i did suddenly feel like i know more than many christians and there was a part of an arrogance that happens i think in a lot of preterists when they first arise in this and it seems like that became my hobby horse to some degree and i even got thrown out of a church over it they basically removed me from the church because i was so adamant that preterism preterism was true so it does affect a lot and i know many many people who go even further with it affects even their social life just in their family they their wives get here sick of hearing about it and things like that and it just destroys their friendships and everything else with people by the way just that's the reason why you project it but it just happens just to let you know i actually now i don't think that um uh i don't know if the term threw out or throw out is the term that i would like to use but i do believe that this is such a serious issue even though i'm a partial preterist i believe that the crossing over into full -blown hyper preterism is such a serious heresy that i believe that it does demand discipline and even excommunication for the unrepentant over this issue especially when they are zealously trying to proselytize that view in a congregation would you agree with that now uh what i just said i agreed with it shortly even after even even while i was a preterist i agreed there was that preterist could not hold themselves to the same standard not because i was trying to be arrogant because one of the claims of full preterism at least is that the church has been wrong or deceiving deceptive for 2 000 years one way or another they did the church didn't teach preterism the full preterism so when full predators get into churches they don't respect any kind of authority over them because they can't because they believe that here's just some clergy who basically still don't get it just like the clergy 2 000 years ago didn't get it so what right do they have to tell me anything and so the authority doesn't really come into play because they won't listen to it anyhow for the most part well another uh clarification i'd like to make uh is that the majority of those in both the reformed movement also known as the doctrines of sovereign grace and calvinism the majority are not hyper -preterist in fact i think that i would be accurate to say that most are not even partial preterist like i am and and i know that my own congregation where i'm a member i know that at least one of my pastors is not a partial preterist because he's preaching through revelation right now and he made that clear during his last sermon uh but uh and also i could say the same from my experience with my friends and brethren in the church of christ in fact i've seen some animated debates between amillennial ministers in the church of christ and hyper -preterist so i just wanted to make that clear as well i didn't want to give anybody a false impression that there's something deeply connected with either of those camps uh do you have any idea why though those two camps of theological background seem to be most drawn to hyper -preterism i really believe it's because those two camps whether it's reformed or church of christ because i used to go to church of christ as a full preterist there was a couple full preterist church of christ around me and i went to those but i truly believe that the reason why they're so susceptible to it because unlike a lot of modern evangelical christian denominations or non denominations whatever you want to call them they tend to study the bible in very detail they they will analyze words they'll be exegetical they'll be hermeneutical whereas a lot of these churches will just tell you stories and just kind of passes by and that's it it doesn't get very deep so when you start analyzing every little detail you think well this could be true and this could be true and this could be true and for example when we look at you said that you believe that a lot of calvinists aren't full preterists or preterists in general that might be true if we're saying they don't call themselves that but if you look at the geneva bible the one that's used mainly by original calvinist every geneva bible note on a lot of the all of the discourse and everything else is basically a at least a partial preterist interpretation of what you would see today so yeah i mean basically they understand that the temple being destroyed and everything else they actually mention that in the notes so they just didn't use that term that term wasn't even useful until the 1800s and then read again and uh after the mount doris is really when i start you can look on there see when preterism used in book what does the actual word mean preterist right that word so nobody used that word or that title they didn't call themselves that and what does it mean prederick it simply means past if you're checking out the theological term for just prederick it's a latin word for past and likely another reason uh that both reformed and church of christ folk tend to be more drawn to preterism in general is because neither come from a dispensationalist background and uh unfortunately my brothers and sisters on that uh end of the spectrum or that area of eschatology i'm speaking especially about uh and i hate to use the term layman but uh i i can't think of an appropriate word to use other than that i don't want to falsely claim that the more serious student of the bible those that are pastors and seminary professors have not studied into this issue deeply so that's why i'm specifying especially layman but many uh dispensationalists have never even explored another idea or another view of eschatology even though historically it's a very new view and didn't even come about until the 19th century pre -millennialism exist existed for nearly the entirety of the of christendom but when you get into i'm sorry you were very muffled i didn't hear what you just said i'm sorry it's advocated by justin martyr for example yeah right but uh pre -tribulationalism and the specific details of dispensationalism did not occur until the 19th century uh and uh but i think that that's another reason why you have those two groups being more drawn to a a preterist understanding is because neither had the trappings of dispensationalism uh and uh so uh the the idea why is this why are we having this discussion today why is this view of hyper -preterism full well let me finish my sentence why is this view of hyper or full preterism so serious that folks like me and you uh believe that it puts one out of the faith now obviously i don't believe that about partial preterism and i hope you don't either but i'm talking about full -blown hyper -preterism that denies the future return of christ and the future resurrection of the dead well one reason why it was so attractive to a lot of people because you talk about dispensationalism which is much of america not it's not europe uh since at least the late 70s is the date setters and how lindsey's and such and so it's almost like a pendulum swing so we have the partial preterist who came around but the full preterist go the other way so much so that it feels like a breath of fresh air to a lot of people who come to it they'll they'll read you know matthew 24 2 or 3 and such and what they'll see you see these stones stones here not one stone left standing and i say to you the son of man shall not come that these these passages that they'll read and they'll say well hey i never heard it read that way i never heard it interpreted that way and they feel like they've found something new and so one reason it's dangerous is because it's hyper -preterism or full preterism is have to completely as they called it early in the early days of hyper -preterism do it via paradigm shift complete change of christian thinking i i often try to reprimand and it's the reason why i've had difficulties with partial preterists i have to reprimand people who will call christ who will call hyper preterist or full preterist from my christian brothers now i have nothing to do with their salvation i'm not talking about that i've been accused well you're saying you're going to hell but no i have no idea that's god's place however i do know they're not historically christians any more than somebody who is in america advocating uh communism would be advocating an americanism so that's that's kind of where we are right now that's the reason why it's so dangerous but i'm assuming that you don't believe that being a partial preterist puts one outside of the faith no because you don't have to i mean again we talked about how the geneva geneva bible had the note we can go back all the way through history even though they don't use those terms and we see partial preterist interpretations of the text whereas full preterists can never find somebody in the past some theologian in the past who had consistently advocated a full preterist view the closest they get is john uh james stewart ruffle in 1800 from what i can see where they we have somebody begin to advocate a theologian who begins to advocate now just because he doesn't have a historic history of of being advocated doesn't mean necessarily it's false either however i believe in a god that has continuity works for the holy spirit has always worked for the holy spirit through time and history we should be able to look back and see where he's been working uh and full preterists can't say that about anything they're doing okay we're going to go to our first break right now let me ask you a question from a listener and then you'll when then i'll have you answer it when we come back we have a anonymous listener who says i am becoming more and more interested about the subject of preterism but i am also not a full or hyper preterist and i was wondering how the hyper preterist respond to the charge that they are guilty of the heresy of hymenaeus and felidus and we'll have you answer that when we come back from our first break and uh our email address if you'd like to join that listener with a question of your own it's chris armson at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and now we're going to hear from a message from a very dear friend of mine gary demar who calls himself a partial futurist but he would although being a post -millennialist he would share my partial preterist view although he prefers the term partial futurist and we'll be right back after these messages here's what gary demar president of american vision had to say about iron sharpens iron radio recently good to be back chris i always enjoy our time you uh i have to tell you one of the better interviewers out there and i've been doing this for 30 more than 30 years wow that's some compliment how much do i owe you for that you don't have to owe me anything we're in good we're in good shape i'm glad you said it on the air so i don't have to brag about myself tell your friends and loved ones about iron sharpens iron radio airing live monday through friday 4 to 6 p .m

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chris arnzen at gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you are a hyper preterist yourself or obviously you wouldn't call yourself that but you fit the definition of a hyper preterist that my guest and i are using when you'd rather not draw attention to yourself perhaps it's because that view is in great opposition to your own elders your own denomination etc and for whatever reason why it's a personal and private matter we will allow you to remain anonymous but please if it's just a general question on theology and eschatology please give us at least your first name city and state of residence in your country of residence and the anonymous listener before the break as you may remember roderick asked you how hyper preterists respond to the the claim by those who are their eschatological and theological opponents that they are guilty of the heresies of hymenaeus and felidus and perhaps you could even elaborate on what that heresy actually is because your commercial there so i'm sorry i'm sorry can you start again because i accidentally had you and i accidentally had you i'm sorry no worries well i feel compelled to use the nasb because your commercial there was so clavically pushing it yes the nasb is very largely responsible for the show's existence so so we're looking at second timothy 2 basically as well again the context would be verses 14 through 19 but we'll just jump right into the the actual verses and uh 16 it says but avoid this is paul by the way talking to me to try to give him advice on how to how to counsel his own people and also be a good pastor so he says but avoid worldly and empty chatter for it will lead to further ungodliness and their talk will spread like gangrene among them are hymenaeus and felidus many who have gone astray from the truth claiming that the resurrection has already taken place and they are jeopardizing the faith of some so that's typically the first thing that will that people say matter of fact some of the early things that happened to full preterists were uh as you mentioned the church of christ they weren't always not not that they are now but they weren't always the the ones that we thought of when we think of full preterism but when max king first came out his his own denomination fought it as they call it the a .d

70 doctrine that's what they called it and then when they came up in the reformed churches a lot of times they called the hymenaeus and felidus heresy so they actually gave it a name they didn't call hyper preterism and they get it from this verse these verse here that we're talking about so the answer is how it was a hyper preterist when you read this damning verse that makes you start well it's speaking directly about you you can't avoid it so what the hyper preterist will do and rightly so they will say well wait a minute this is happening before a .d

70 of course if they hymenaeus and felidus were talking about the resurrection happening before a .d 70 they were an error but after a .d

70 they wouldn't have been errors unfortunately for the hyper preterist or full preterist we don't have any biblical texts supposedly addressing anything beyond unless i don't know where you are on the on the dating of revelation we can look at that in a moment but for the most part we don't have anything that deals with post a .d

70 church if you want to talk about that for the most part it's supposed to go on as as it was so do you that that the hymenaeus and felidus were talking before a .d

70 so they were wrong at that time but they're not wrong they wouldn't be wrong after a .d 70 now do you think uh that that is an adequate response from a full preterist or a hyper preterist do you believe that they are accurately called uh or should i say that they are accurate accurately charged with the heresy of hymenaeus and felidus no i would not say they're actually charged because again i would agree with them that hymenaeus and felidus were talking about the resurrection before so now as a church or as a as a christian you would have to advocate and show where talking about the resurrection after a .d

70 is as having passed would still be a heresy which i think there you're going to have to go into more of a theologian to be able to so in other words you think that it's it's a heresy to deny the future resurrection of the dead and the return of christ but that's just not a verse that you use to prove that correct okay well by the way thank you anonymous listener and if you give me your full name and mailing address obviously that will not be disclosed on the air uh we will send you a free copy of about preterism the end is past provided by our guest roderick edwards uh before we go on to another listener question if you could give us some of the key texts that full preterists use uh to claim that the return of christ has already come in finality uh in the past and that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred in finality obviously partial preterists believe that there are different kinds of comings of christ uh partial preterists would view the destruction of the temple itself as a coming of christ but not his final coming and not where he is physically invisibly seen as as returning in his body that is but the hyper preterist obviously takes it further hence the adjective hyper but if you could uh explain whatever the the key texts and the key doctrines that you believe set this group of folks outside of the body of christ in truth all right so as you mentioned and this is the reason why there might be a little contention because some people think well that's also against partial preterists because i i'm i'm leery because i know it leads into and can lead into and i've seen it lead into full preterism i think it's very care somebody who's advocating partial president needs to be extra careful on how so because they use some of the main the same text for example matthew 24 that entire chapter is used by full predators and hyper predators alike to advocate a path you mean partial and hyper predators alike right right that's what i'm saying but the problem is is that a lot of distant facialists who have come out of this situation a lot of the current full predators what i can gather online that i are not coming out of the reform camps and they're not coming out of the churches of christ they're coming out of the dispensationalist because again preterism full preterism especially seems like a breath of fresh air like they we've been lied to all this time there's a big giant conspiracy they believe that and so when they read again when they're not taught in their dispensationalist churches that jesus and matthew 24 in the note full hall of the discourse matthew 24 mark 13 and luke uh 21 when he was talking about the temple being destroyed they were taught in their dispensationalism that's going to be some future temple so when they read it for themselves over again and if you wait a minute that is the temple in the past when they feel like what else has been lied to me so again when we see in matthew 24 when in three and it says uh actually two he says jesus is talking to his disciples he's sitting on the mount of all of them he says do you see all these things truly i say to you not one stone here will be left on another which will not be thrown down now we know in 80 70 the temple was destroyed the herodian temple as a matter of fact but he goes on to and as he was sitting on the mount of all of the disciples came to him privately saying tell us when will these things happen and what will be the sign you're coming in the end of the age a lot of a lot of english especially king james says the end of the world so that's where you get that end of the world instead of age predators will spend hours and hours and hours on age versus world mellow and such and such the grief behind it but the problem is and i think gary demar probably had some long uh articles on this but as you go through matthew 24 and you keep going verse by verse you ask somebody when does the time change because most partial predators will start reading in matthew 24 -1 and they'll say yes that's passed yes that's passed yes that's passed then they'll get all the way down to the let's see matthew 24 24 says for false christs and false prophets will arise will provide great signs and wonders so i can lead mislead many if it's possible even elect so a question from full predators to partial predators is that possible as well and then we get down to i'll skip them just so we can get to this verse 29 but immediately after the tribulation will be dark and the moon will not give us light and you know the stars will fall up in the sky all these these in time events again a full predator will ask is that also past at some point what i'm trying to get to at some point a full predator or partial predator will say that this is where the break is everything before this verse is all past but everything after this verse is all future and that's usually somewhere around recall right uh matthew 24 32 and 34 somewhere right in there where it says now learn the parable of the fig tree as soon as its branches become tender sprouts leaves you know that the summer is near so too you will know when you see all these things recognize that he is near right at the door who has saved you this generation will not pass away until these things take place heaven or earth will pass away but my words will not pass away and then we get to that that no one knows the hour the day or hour even the angels of heaven or the son of the father no son but the father alone so the coming of son of man will be just like it was in the days of noah which were obviously sudden and unexpected so the question is which we asked me is where what verse they don't use these same texts and then challenge the the partial predators to tell them where the text has turned to future i would ask you where do you think it changes future i'm still studying that because i know that even uh two friends of mine who i highly regard who are both partial preterists or partial futurists gary demar and ken gentry for instance disagree over this somewhat so i'm still one of the reasons i think that i may have described myself before as somebody who is not absolutely 100 committed to my view i am exploring it but that's the way that i would describe myself that's the way i would best describe myself as where i'm leaning anyway uh is a partial preterism and amillennialism unlike most of my partial preterist friends who are post -millennial but i have to reiterate that the church where i'm a member does not to my knowledge doesn't take an official position on it but i know that at least one of my pastors is not any kind of a preterist or at least uh one that would be identified as a partial preterist because he revealed that during a sermon on revelation during a series on the subject so i haven't quite come to a a concrete conclusion on that but there are some things that i think makes sense from a partial preterist view and i think that many christians take far too much of revelation uh and put it completely in the future whereas it would seem strange to me that uh some of the warnings and so on of john in the book of revelation were not something happening to the churches or a threat an imminent threat to the churches of his day i would even wonder sometimes if he would be considered a false prophet by the church had not some of those things actually come to pass while they were alive but uh uh let's go to well actually yeah i'll have to ask this next question and have you answer it when we come back from the break because we're not going to have enough time to answer it because we have to break in two minutes let me go ahead and send one more thing on that on this uh since you brought up revelation can i do that no you can't because we don't have enough time we're going to be going to because you could do that when we return but not right now in fact i'll just go to the break now um if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and keep in mind folks i'm asking you to be patient with me with us because this is the longer than normal break in the middle of the show grace life radio 90 .1

fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the fcc to localize this show to lake city florida and therefore while we air our globally heard commercials they air their own local public service announcements and other things that localize iron sharpens iron radio and all of their programming to lake city florida so please be patient during this longer break use this time wisely please write down as much of the information as you can provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and more successfully patronize our advertisers because that will keep them happy that will keep them interested in continuing to sponsor the show and that is absolutely essential for the existence of this program we depend upon our advertisers to exist so please try to keep them happy even if it just means responding to their ads by telling them thank you so much for sponsoring iron sharpens iron radio and also as i said send in your emails with questions on the end times on preterism to chris arnson at gmail .com

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that's l -e -e -s drugs rx .com don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program greetings in the matchless name of our jesus christ my name is bhanu gadi i am a pharmacist in new york which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through in psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the lord like this i praise you because i am fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well he saw god's goodness and mercy kindness and the beauty in what god has designed and he has erupted into praise in any crisis or problem brothers and sisters our only fallback position is to trust god's design and once we do there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him when the whole world is searching for a solution god in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious such is the beauty of his design knowing that design how can we not add up and praise to our great god like the psalmist did may god bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design thank you james white of alpha and omega ministries the dividing line webcast here although god has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor rich jensen and the brethren at hope reform baptist church now located at their new beautiful facilities in corham long island new york i've had the privilege of opening god's word from their pulpit on many occasions have led youth retreats for them and always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my new york debates i do not hesitate to highly recommend hope reform baptist church of corham long island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught discipled and edified by the holy scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in christ i also want to congratulate hope reform baptist church of corham for the recent appointment of pastor rich jensen's co -elder pastor christopher mcdowell for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reformed li .net

that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of corham long island that you heard about them from james white on iron sharpens iron radio so chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world now at no charge for 90 days by going to get world now .com

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forward slash podcast hi this is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast i consider chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian faith i've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray i believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances i'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry i know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would all the details can be found at iron sharpens iron .com

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or call them at 908 -996 -7654 that's 908 -996 -7654 tell pastor dunn that you heard about grace covenant baptist church on iron sharpens iron radio hi i'm buzz taylor a frequent co -host with chris irons and on iron sharpens iron radio i would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service todd and patty specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time that means you can get to the good stuff faster it also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors their website is cvbbs .com

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and put i need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you could send in questions to our guest roderick edwards on our subject today preterism and more specifically on his book about preterism the end is past and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

and please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question is about a personal and private matter and before the break roderick you said you wanted to delve into some more texts and revelation yeah we were talking about some of the proof texts specifically where you had referenced revelation as being something that a lot of christians will believe is the only place that the end times or eschatology is mentioned which i would urge them to realize that jesus talks about eschatology end times probably just as much if not more but i want to look at revelation 11 one just i think it's just one chapter i need your next two chapters two two two verses rather i'm sorry so again nsab in nasb uh then there was a given to me a measuring rod like a staff and someone said get up and measure the temple of god and the altar and those who worship in it leave out the courtyard which is outside the temple and do not measure it because it's been given over to the nation and they will trample it trample the holy city for 42 months now this is uh the apostle john uh supposedly being told to measure the temple and peters will say look see this is the reason why this has already happened or has happened because revelation this is this is john measuring the temple that jesus was talking about being destroyed in matthew 24 and the reason they say that because he specifically says leave out a certain part of it because it's going to be given to the nation to trample for 42 months which ends up being three and a half i'm sorry 42 months which ends up being three and a half years which is exact time that the romans besieged jerusalem so that's what preterist will point this out as a major proof text showing that one that revelation was written before 80 70 and two that all these prophecies of the end times are tied together and you disagree with that interpretation because even the partial preterists would hold that view not just those that were in the heretical camp of hyper preterists no i definitely i mean we mentioned about the geneva bible i definitely believe that a lot of it that we see as at least when the dispensational camp as being future has actually already happened as you go back and you look at places like geneva bible and other theologians from the past they always advocated that these things had happened in the past it wasn't something new but unfortunately in america a lot of us have never heard that because we were raised as dispensationalists so we always thought everything was future the first time we hear that no it's past it gives an inroad immediately to full preterist preterist to say well everything was past so no i i do believe that that he's talking about the temple in 80 70 there however obviously i believe that the resurrection the end of sin and other things we'll talk about the future here are still future right and uh obviously uh just as we were mentioning or discussing before the program you might have even mentioned it during the interview and i just don't recall right now but just because something can lead or can be distorted to justify one becoming something that is a twisted and in perhaps extreme view of whatever it is that is their starting point does not disprove the uh the the truthfulness or the reality of the more orthodox version of that view like for instance calvinism there are people who will say if you believe in calvinism if you believe in the five points of calvinism if you believe that god is already a predetermined pre -ordained before the foundation of the world those who would be saved then there's no reason to evangelize and you'll become a hyper calvinist and you'll uh stop evangelizing and all these things that are caricatures and slanders of historical biblical calvinism just because there are people that distort the truth does not call into question the the truth where they began am i explaining myself fairly clearly that's exactly right i just think that that's coming from full preterism i haven't been caught up in it i do think the onus though is on especially as we mentioned earlier you were not settled on where to split up matthew 24 i think it's very important that people who call themselves partial preterists or such be very careful how they explain that they need to because obviously somebody who's weaker or something can easily move right into the full preterism if it's not if you're not careful yes and there's also something that i have to be careful about uh i am not a uh by any stretch of the imagination an expert on the the field in which we are discussing and therefore i don't want to represent the position in an official way where there are far more qualified people who have exhaustively researched these issues at great depth even those that know the original languages of scripture and and so on uh who would far better represent a partial preterist view than i ever would so i have to be careful about delving into matters that are above my pay grade and you know because this show is listened to by tens of thousands of people so i don't want to i don't want to present a straw man to hyper preterists or even those who are dispensational and other opponents of partial preterism by giving a straw man well chris arnzen said this or that and therefore it was easily debunked you know i don't want to i'm not and not somebody who would be an official representative of that position in fact there is a question now from john and banger main uh who asks i was wondering if your guest was recognized as somebody thoroughly knowledgeable on full preterism when he was still embracing that point of view the reason i ask is that i was wondering how to refute the notion that many of his opponents today who are still hyper preterists that he is not qualified to be speaking on these issues well it's hard to say that what it's hard for me to describe that i'm qualified i do know that sam frost i believe you've had on the show once before yes also discussing some of the same topics um he's definitely a more scholarly uh individual had spent more time when he was a full person as well in the conference circuit and at one point he said something to the effect i don't have the quote before me but some in fact robert edwards and this is while i was just coming out of full preterism he was still in there he said robert edwards is the most dangerous individual to full preterism that there is exists today i mean if you're the guy who was the main speaker of full preterism telling people that i was the most dangerous guy against it then i think at least you should give me a listen and what the opportunity here for a moment to say my book is not a reputation of preterism or full preterism it's basically a a walk through the uh through the history of it i don't want anybody looking up and go hey this is going to be my silver bullet i'm going to get robert's book and i'm going to end those four parts once and for all no that's not what it's about and that won't help you that way by the way you'll be happy to know uh right while i was speaking with you i was getting texted by sam frost who was expressing his pleasure that you're my guest today and saying that you're a solid guy and all that so and we used to be actually i mean if you want to call it limited during even when i was a full person he was a full person we were nemesis because he was advocating almost a structure that would uh be reconstituting pastor uh pastors of preterist and i said that's not consistent writer full preterism says that pastors are in it how can you be a full pastor and say that i used to bet heads all the time about that and i think he eventually realized that it wasn't inconsistent view to claim he's a pastor while being a full preterist yeah well obviously he's departed from that view with a vengeance right right uh i hope that answers the question i i don't like to say hey i'm an expert but other people have said that i have something to say so the listener john in bangor maine was merely asking if you were recognized by those in that camp as somebody who knew what he was talking about and you just demonstrated that sam frost while he was still a full preterist or hyper preterist uh excuse me the irony is that both sam frost and i will be accused by many hyper press which we have been as as leading hyper preterism because we wanted attention or something i don't i don't get why that why they say that sort of like if you left mormonism the only reason you left is because you wanted attention but that's nothing to do with that matter of fact this this is only one of nine books i've written and all the other ones have nothing to do with predators by the way john and bangor maine you have also won a free copy of about preterism the end is past so make sure that we get your full mailing address in bangor maine uh do you have any other of the key areas where uh full or hyper preterists have in your opinion departed from what we could call and identify as true biblical christianity well one thing that all predators do and actually probably any heresy does the first thing it tries to get you to do is tries to doubt main tenets of the faith and typically what they'll say is there's never been any solid church position on eschatology which i would argue even while i was a full predator argued against that logic because if anything eschatology is the most settled you can have denominations arguing over who to baptize how to baptize and such and such and such but almost all of them throughout history have believed that jesus is yet to come that the resurrection believers is yet to be that the end of sin and and the culmination and the judgment is yet to be all of them believe that however full predators try to get you to believe that that's not the case and they'll say that that eschatology is not a settled field and they'll try to get you to come up like a buddy go hey let's just discuss this and you know it's kind of wishy -washy there's 30 ,000 33 ,000 denominations let's just discuss this they'll try to make it sound like they're just trying to discuss an unclear doctrinal position and i think i think we should advocate against that strongly that it's not an unclear doctrinal position probably the most settled doctrinal position in all the church we have christopher from western suffolk county long island new york who says other than the fact that full or hyper -preterism is a departure from historic christendom how can you say that this is a gospel oriented issue whereby those that embrace this view are outside of the body of christ excellent excellent question because as we said early on i think when we began the conversation that preterism does not just affect eschatology we kind of referenced a little bit we're talking about sam frost uh claiming to be a pastor while he was still a full preterist which is inconsistent with peter saying that uh when the chief shepherd comes the the the under shepherds will get the reward which means it seems to be that if you came back already there are no under shepherds so there's an effect it's affecting ecclesiology the church and now we're talking about affecting the missions and the gospel well a lot of partners will believe that the gospel message message of taking the gospel to the world was only meant till 80 70 if that's the case then what mandate do we have to take the gospel message anywhere else they'll also believe that there's no more sin that sin was completely eradicated at age 70 and therefore there's no reason for judgment there's no reason to confess then there's no reason to have any remorse for sin or anything like that because it's all done with so that dramatically affects the gospel message uh thank you christopher you have also won a free copy of the book that we are discussing about preterism the end is past and we want to thank not only roderick edwards for providing us with these free copies of his book but also we want to thank our friends at cumberland valley bible book service cvbbs .com

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either way both of my sponsors will be blessed in doing so let's see here we have a listener from bobby in hartsdale new york and bobby says can you define or give a label to your understanding of eschatology today i know that from what you've already said you might not be fond of labels but do you have anything that we can at least get a realm of where you are coming from in the area of eschatology and i appreciate that i appreciate how he worded it because when i and clarence frost will tell you but when when fulbrighters leave the movement the first thing that happens they what do you believe now you're just going back to your futurist and they they get claimed that they're coming to catholic or whatever all kinds of things that accusations are thrown out unless you come up with a brand new position to take over plethoras and they will hound you and hound you until you do so here we are i purposely did not because i first of all i didn't want to go from one error to my own self -made error so i've been taking it very slowly and i did have called myself a historic christian what i try to do is i look through the bible as we should the first thing but then i through historical christianity through the scholars and such and see is my belief that i'm reading here in the bible my interpretation of it in line with at least some amount of christians in the past so what i guess i find that a label is something i call a minimal a minimal eschatology where i believe the four things that i talked about earlier that jesus is yet to come that the judgment is yet to happen that the resurrection is yet to happen in and out of and the end of sin is yet to happen so beyond that i try not to go any further than that when i'm talking about eschatology because the rest of it who's the antichrist and what's the abomination of desolation we could all speculate but as we fall in second timothy 2 it says you know all the wranglings over words and various things are just going to be in the end result is not going to be good so i try to avoid that now well thank you bobby and you've also won a free copy of about preterism the end is past and cv bbs .com

will ship that out to you we need your full mailing address uh in hartsdale new york so get that to us right away we have uh let's see here we have bb in cumberland county pennsylvania right here in our area of iron sharpens iron and bb uh asks i heard somebody during the sam frost don preston debate on this very issue on iron sharpens iron radio ask sam frost if he believed he was lost when he was still a hyper preterist having been someone who departed from that view and now claims that it is a false theology that puts one outside of the genuine saving faith how would you categorize yourself back then do you believe that you were not regenerate back then or was this just an error that you had as a born -again christian and were led out of it by the holy spirit an excellent question and unfortunately also often an accusation by credit the first thing they'll say is you know are you saying you weren't saved when you were full credit well obviously you know as a calvinist one of the tenets are that i hate to say it this way but people know it's a play once saved always saved or perseverance is the same you know all these so -called tulips so even while i was a full predator i was still a calvinist so obviously i didn't think of myself as unsaved so now in retrospect do i look back and say was i unsaved no i do not think i was unsaved i was misled for a time but not unsaved now hypothetically what if i would have died as a full credit what would have happened to me again i'm not here to tell you that hyper predators are going to hell i know that it's a it's a wrong damnable teaching but it doesn't mean a full person is automatically going to hell that's only god's determination uh obviously it's a thief on the cross who appears to have not done anything at the very last moment says you know let's pray for me to be in your kingdom and today you will be i can't say who is and who isn't going to be in heaven but definitely you're doing damage to people and people around you when you advocate anything that's outside the biblical realm when you're advocating heresy whether it's prioritism or anything so i hope that answered yeah uh and let me ask you a question of my own in that regard uh because there are all sorts of issues that would fall into that category like uh issues like the trinity and so on now do you view as being in a different category a unique category those studied men who persist and continue unrepentantly in teaching uh a heresy like those that oppose the trinity those that are oneness pentecostals and unitarians and so on those that are hyper preterists those that you could come up with a lot of different things uh that that they are in a different category especially if they forever remain aggressively proselytizing that view trying to corrupt members of the body of christ with their view there's a different category for those folks than your average person who has been temporarily duped by it and one of the reasons why i believe that there are two different categories of people is that in galatians paul interestingly enough calls the galatians his brothers even though they were at the time of his writing duped by the heresy of the judaizers he treated those teachers of the judaizer movement as being false christians and and that they are to be accursed and so on that they have no gospel at all he seemed to treat them differently than the average christian in the church that he planted himself he treated them with a little bit more kindness even though he says that they are fools and he says it was bewitched you he still called them brothers so do you think there is a different category there i'm still hesitant because i don't think it's my place it makes me think of this thing in acts when paul was talking to the pharisees and said the same thing to them basically call them his brothers even though they were teaching something different about the resurrection and even something different about the messiah but yet he still called them brothers so i was a little confused by that i try to be hesitant however one thing i'm thankful that the lord made sure it didn't happen to me i didn't write any preterist books while i was a preterist because i think once you invest something so so detailed into something like for example i don't want to is it okay if i name a few names without getting too you can feel free to name names i mean after all even though you say it's a different heresy paul mentioned himeletus so we see somebody like don creston or even john noe these men have written books upon books upon books could you imagine them trying to extricate themselves from this how would you you'd have to be very humble to say i was wrong about all these 15 books i wrote all these years i invested now can it happen it does happen but it seems like it's very difficult you'd have to become a very humble person it takes a very special kind of person i actually praise sam frost he was pretty heavily into it i didn't think that man would ever even when i left before he did two or three years before but sure enough here he is by the grace of god so i'm really hesitant to ascribe to describe that these people are in a different level i guess they are to some degree because they're more responsible for uh misleading people people take them more seriously because they present themselves as leaders but as as if they're actually the ones that are damned and the other ones aren't possibly damn they're just in there that's not really my place to say well one of the reasons i say that is that i know theologians and apologists like my dear friend dr james r white of alpha omega ministries who says over the years over the decades of his ministry as an apologist he has encountered many people who are in theologically sound churches that especially when you're talking about the average individual in those churches define the trinity as a modalist would uh as a uh oneness pentecostal would unconsciously and he would he would consider those folks that might naively uh misunderstand the historical definition of the trinity he would and clumsily try to describe it he would he would consider those folks as not necessarily of course he's not omniscient but not necessarily being uh on equal footing and therefore equally deserving of being viewed as a false christian as a studied a seminary professor in a oneness pentecostal institution who aggressively attacks the trinity at nearly every opportunity you understand what i'm saying there definitely brings to mind how that says when you go before the lord that all your work come before you and some of the strong stubble and such is burned away you know obviously some of these men there is more there's their foundation of heresy a little more solid than somebody who just casually gets into it okay we have uh joseph in south central pennsylvania who says what is the most troubling text to you that hyper preterists present as proof of their view that you have a hurdle to overcome in trying to re -interpret or exegete in a way that opposes their understanding i would say it's actually a collection of of of verses or texts although what they call time text everywhere we read at hand soon shortly will be all these these texts here are are difficult for any bible scholar or anybody interacting with preterists but they can immediately show you where a lot of those have to do with the immediate situation what preterists will often call audience relevancy the minute immediacy or amenity uh text so when you read these texts you have to figure out how you can and they'll personally say your goal you elongate them or elasticize them into the future but you have to figure out how they would apply for example there's one where jesus talks about he's going to sit at the right hand of the father i think that's uh matthew uh 26 and you'll see the son of man coming in his glory in the clouds and you'll say see that happened in 80 70 but if you see it right you can understand that historically scholars have understood that as jesus saying i'm going to the throne next to my father and then for it'll be obvious to even the people who rejected me that i was who i said i was the messiah it isn't something about him coming back it's that i'm coming in the clouds is more of a reference to the analogy of i'm being exalted to my kingship so i've said all the the time texts are difficult for people well thank you joseph you've also won a free copy of roderick's book about preterism the end is past so make sure you give us your full mailing address in south central pennsylvania so that cvbbs .com

can ship that out to you no charge to you or to us we're going to our final break it's going to be a lot more brief than the last breaks but please if you have a question you want to join us on the air with that question please send it in fairly quickly because we're rapidly running out of time our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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that's l -e -e -s drugs rx .com don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program welcome back this is chris arnson if you have a question send them in immediately because we are rapidly running out of time uh roderick i want to make sure that before i take any listener question that you summarize in about five minutes what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today that they can walk away with after this program still remaining within their thoughts well obviously from my own experience it's easy to get into error um i was again i wasn't studying preterism i was studying the death of death and accidentally got into it so before you launch off into something and i try to be careful too but obviously not careful enough consult other christians that's obviously the reason why it says assemble do not forsake yourself with assembly because you need to take that to other christians see what they say in my own faith here my my theology is something strange we've gotten to the part especially as protestants where we think it's okay to be completely completely different like we're modern mini martin luthers but that's not the case we need to be careful with that so that's what i hope that people take away i think that's what the book outlines it's a book for people who are preterists who are interested in preterism it's even a book for full predators to see how they got there and uh let's see we have a couple more listeners who have questions uh we have cj from lindenhurst long island new york and he asks from what i understand there are very few to put it mildly actual churches that would describe themselves as full preterist is that true are there really not too many actual churches or is most of this view being held by maverick christians who are not associated or connected with any official body definitely by maverick christians there are still few there's a david curtis there's uh don preston oddly enough and i think this is very important don preston who we consider the most vocal advocate of full preterism today used to uh pastor a church in i think it's omaha and it it seems to exist at least under his pastorage so my point is that yes it is under maverick and it's not in any kind of larger body or denomination typically when that happens the denomination typically excommunicates the entire church out of their organization so no there's not that many of i bet there's not even 15 of them worldwide as churches yeah but uh even the view not of all i got to make sure i'm not broad brushing because i know that don preston having heard him say it from his own mouth that he still believes in practicing the lord's supper and baptism uh but there are some whose uh full preterism actually led them to abandon those very things am i right right there's one we called there's one called israel only which is basically the nimitz nimitz i can't say the word to full preterist it's actually the consistent outworking it basically says that if you believe that all things are fulfilled and it's only for that audience that everything that jesus was saying the bible says was only for the first century christians and there's no christians after they don't even consider themselves christians anymore that's the full you know gamut of what full preterism can do to your faith but there are no churches like that that i know of uh let's see we have uh rj in white plains new york who says is this group known as full preterists a monolithic group or is there a lot of infighting with people that even disassociate themselves from one another well that's what the book is kind of about because you look back in 1990s they were more uh united and then somewhere about the end of 1990s to 2000 they started breaking up first over the whole emergent church there's a large group of preterists that wanted to move in that direction and a lot of them that wanted to move into universalism especially since they believe that they're no longer being judged for sin then there were the calvinistic uh full predators like me and sam frost who definitely pushed back against that but we began to see that even our views weren't consistent with our calvinism so eventually it all falls apart so yes most writers now full press now are probably pretty much on their own there's no no unity a lot of the conferences have stopped there's there's not that unity there was back in the early 1990s well thank you rj and i don't know if i remember to tell cj and some of the other listeners who have sent in questions uh that you have all won so far we haven't run out yet uh you've all won a free copy of about preterism the end is past thanks to the generosity of roderick edwards who provided these books and also thanks to the generosity of cvbbs .com

couple in valley bible book service will actually be shipping uh these books out to you uh let's see here uh we have another anonymous listener uh we have an anonymous listener who says i have been continually finding what i believe to be very believable arguments in favor of what you are calling full preterism and i was wondering what you could tell me at this point although i may be asking too much in the brief time that is left in the show that would dissuade me from this leading leaning l -e -a -n -i -n -g well unfortunately we talk about exegesis or hermeneutics and i think sam frost would be one of the first to tell you that when he was a full preterist he would often say he was using exegesis and hermeneutics and you know being very strict on how he's interpreting things but now he's not a full preterist he's still using exegesis and hermeneutics so my point is that we can't really approach it that way at first we have to approach it as the sovereignty of god if god is in control did he really allow his entire elect for early christians everything else to be in error for this long i mean not just like a minor error like luther tried to advocate against the catholic church but complete error where basically we're going to overthrow the entire church basically you can't be a full preterist and be a christian i'm not saying anything about your salvation i'm talking about your your communal standing in christianity you cannot be a christian and a full preterist because they're not compatible by the way i think i heard something that i would strongly disagree with i don't think that luther's opposition to the church of rome was a minor issue oh i think it was a minor i've been saying what i meant by that is in comparison four persons even a bigger divergence luther often quoted the ancient faith i mean he didn't just say i'm only going to look at the bible so yes and i believe that the roman catholic church departed from their ancient faith they departed from the church fathers but we're actually out of time and it's been really fascinating discussing this with you roderick uh how do our listeners get a hold of the book uh rodericky .com

forward slash peterism it's private use look on amazon about peterism look for my name roderick edward great i want to thank you so much for being an excellent guest i want to thank everybody who listened and i want you all always to remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.