December 10, 2020 Show with Roderick Edwards on “About Preterism: The End Is Past”

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There is an interesting phenomenon in the body of Christ that continues to divide brothers and

sisters, and that is the area of eschatology known as

preterism.

And today we are going to be discussing for the second time, for the second time

in 12 years, this issue with my guest today, Roderick Edwards, who is

a former full preterist, also known by its critics

as a former hyper preterist.

And he is the author of About Preterism, The End Is Past.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after a very long absence, Roderick Edwards.

Thank you so much for the opportunity.

It's almost 12 years to the day.

I think it was December 12th last time.

Wow.

I appreciate it.

Right.

And that was not even planned to be that close to the exact date.

It just happened in providence to turn out that way.

Well, Roderick, why don't you give us some of your background

as far as your, even though you may have done this 12 years ago, it's been

so long, why don't you give us a summary of your salvation testimony, including what kind of religious atmosphere,

if any, you were raised in, and what kind of circumstances our

Sovereign Lord providentially raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you?

Obviously, as the analogy of Christ being raised up.

And no one comments on it.

I'm amazed.

I'm

like, oh my God, before

I went

through a

very...

Yes.

The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America is the official title of the denomination.

That's because I

really, this really gets in

my way sometimes because

I'm analyzing...

Well, I'm sorry.

That's my background on that.

Yeah.

Well, today we are discussing a very controversial issue.

And I have to give a caveat to our audience.

Today, the subject at hand is going to involve things that

my guest and I both agree over and also may disagree over.

I happen to be a partial preterist, unlike

most partial preterists that I know.

I am not post -millennial.

I am an amillennialist.

Although I am not dyed in the wool about a lot of my

eschatological views, I just know for certain that I believe in a

visible physical return of Christ and a visible

physical bodily resurrection of the dead that is still in our future.

And I believe that those issues, as my guest does, are absolutely essential and

crucial for biblical Christianity.

But where we part company is that I believe my guest has departed from preterism altogether,

but he can further clarify that himself.

And if you could, why don't you define preterism first and foremost?

Right, but

obviously, there are people in cults that say the same thing.

There is a difficulty that we who are Christians face in that

using labels can become problematic when people misunderstand

those labels and they have a slanderous or caricatured

association with those labels, presuppositions that are false when it comes to

those labels.

Obviously, since we are both Calvinists, we know that many, many, many people who

are opposed to Calvinism, especially those that are the most vehemently opposed to it,

typically totally misunderstand it.

And very often, these same folks have only read the

works that critique Calvinism.

They've never read, some of them never read a single page of a single book by a Calvinist.

So, it's one of those things where that can be a difficulty and also just saying, well,

I'm just a Bible -believing Christian.

Well, yeah, so do the Mormons and so do the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that, and so does all kinds of folks.

So, we're never completely in an area of safety or

preventing confusion or disagreement when we are trying to defend and explain what we believe.

That's the reason why they use the word historical Christian.

That way, they immediately say, well, what does that mean?

At least we get on to the realm

of denominations, there's a continuity, and then I can get to that point.

Well, tell us about how you came to first hear about Preterism.

And it is interesting that, as far as my experience,

most Preterists, at least those that I have met and heard about,

have come from two different backgrounds.

And in fact, many would consider these two very different backgrounds,

and yet they have found commonality in partial or

hyper -Preterism, the latter of which I think is a heresy.

That is, they have either come from theologically Reformed backgrounds or, on the

other end of the spectrum, from a Restorationist or Campbellite background, otherwise

known as the Churches of Christ, Christian churches, but actually

even more predominantly the Churches of Christ, those that are a cappella in their worship, strictly

a cappella, which actually, so are the Covenant or Presbyterians.

But it is interesting that, as they say, this subject

makes strange bedfellows.

Have you found what I've just said to be true?

Yes, I mentioned that specifically in the book.

As a matter of

fact, many of

the 1991 book

tried to see what he was saying.

And so you have this cross, obviously, don't

believe the things that were broken, whereas Restoration believes that.

So tell us more about this meeting, how you discovered Preterism, what were the

developments in your life and in your thinking as far as embracing it, and did you begin

as a partial Preterist, as I am right now, or did you go immediately, or at least quickly,

into full -blown hyper -Preterism?

I've become Preterist today,

obviously, but you have many in the 90s.

There were going to be reading of all people, John

Owens, the death of death and the death of Christ.

I began to think as much with my head, the death is the last enemy.

It's already been defeated by a few, but I didn't know what I was believing.

It didn't have a name for me at the time, so I started getting on the internet looking, does anybody else believe this?

Am I just this crazy guy believing this and concluding this, or

are there many things that

were not

true against

Stephen?

And

when you came to believe in this concept,

tell us how it, in practical terms, affected your Christian life, your day

-to -day activities and mindset, your view of other

Christians outside of that movement.

Give us some kind of an overall sense of where this may have changed other

things other than your eschatology.

Right, well, anybody trying to tell you Preterism is just about eschatology, it won't change much there.

Calvinism, without knowing much, had nothing to do with those five points.

That was the Council of Dorks.

Calvin had been dead long before that was written up.

But you have these new Calvinists, and they beat their chests,

and then

many Christians, and it

seems like that's

the

reason

why.

Just to let you know, I actually, now, I don't think that,

I don't know if the term threw out or throw out is the term that I would

like to use, but I do believe that this is such a serious issue.

Even though I'm a partial Preterist, I believe that the crossing over into

full -blown hyper -Preterism is such a serious heresy that I believe that it does demand

discipline and even excommunication for the unrepentant over this issue,

especially when they are zealously trying to proselytize that view in a congregation.

Would you agree with that now, what I just said?

Yes, I agreed with it shortly even after.

Even while I was a Preterist, I

was trying to be arrogant,

because

2 ,000 years ago it didn't get played, because they

won't—.

Another clarification I'd like to make is that the majority of those

in both the Reformed movement, also known as the Doctrines of

Sovereign Grace and Calvinism, the majority are not hyper -Preterist.

In fact, I think that I would be accurate to

say that most are not even partial Preterist, like I am.

And I know that my own congregation, where I'm a member, I know that at least one of my pastors is not a

partial Preterist, because he's preaching through Revelation right now, and he made that clear during his last

sermon.

And also, I could say the same from my experience with my friends and brethren in the

Church of Christ.

In fact, I've seen some pretty animated debates between Amillennial ministers in the Church of

Christ and hyper -Preterists.

So I just wanted to make that clear as well.

I didn't want to give anybody a false impression that there's something deeply connected with either of

those camps.

Do you have any idea why, though, those two camps of

theological background seem to be most drawn to hyper -Preterism?

I really believe it's because those two camps, where

their

denominations are not

very

detailed, they're hermeneutical,

they just tell you stories, and you kind of pass them by, and that's it.

You say, well, this could be true, and this could be true, and this could be true.

You said that you believe that

that might be true, but if you look at the Geneva Bible, the one that's used mainly by the original

Calvin, every Geneva Bible notes on one of the...

Oh, really?

...what you would see today.

So yeah, you can look

on there and see when Preterism

was used in the book.

What does the actual word mean, Preterist?

Right, that word.

So nobody used that word or that title.

They didn't call themselves that.

And what does it mean?

It means past.

And likely another reason that both Reformed and Church of Christ

folk tend to be more drawn to Preterism in general is because neither come from a

dispensationalist background, and unfortunately,

my brothers and sisters on that end of the spectrum, or that

area of eschatology, and I'm speaking especially about,

and I hate to use the term layman, but I can't think of an appropriate word to use other than that.

I don't want to falsely claim that the more serious student of the Bible, those

that are pastors and seminary professors, have not studied into this issue deeply.

So that's why I'm specifying especially layman.

But many dispensationalists have never even explored another

idea or another view of eschatology, even though historically it's a very new

view and didn't even come about until the 19th century.

Prunalinealism existed for nearly the entirety

of Christendom, but when you get into...

I'm sorry, you were very muffled.

I didn't hear what you just said.

I'm sorry, it's advocated by Justin Martyr, for example.

Yeah, right.

But pre -tribulationalism and the specific details of

dispensationalism did not occur until the 19th century.

But I think that's another reason why you have those two groups being more drawn to a preterist

understanding is because neither had the trappings of dispensationalism.

And so the

idea, why is this?

Why are we having this discussion today?

Why is this view of hyper -preterism?

Well, let me finish my sentence.

Why is this view of hyper or full preterism so serious that

folks like me and you believe that it puts one out of the faith?

Now, obviously, I don't believe that about partial preterism, and I hope you don't either, but I'm talking

about full -blown hyper -preterism that denies the future return of Christ and the future resurrection

of the dead.

So attractive to

a

Christian

outcome that I never

heard

it read

that way.

I never completely, as

they called it,

and it's the reason why I thought it had

nothing to do

with their salvation cues.

Well, you're saying you're going to hell, but however, I do know that not historically Christians, any more than

somebody who is in America, would be.

But I'm assuming that you don't believe that being a partial preterist puts one outside of the faith.

No, because you don't have to have the notes.

We can go back all the way through history, and

we see somebody in the past, some theologian in the past, who had

consistently...

We're going to go to our first break right now.

Let me ask you a question from a listener, and then I'll have you answer it when we

come back.

We have an anonymous listener who says, I

am becoming more and more interested about the subject of preterism, but I am also not

a full or hyper -preterist.

And I was wondering how the hyper -preterists respond to the charge that they are guilty of

the heresy of Hymenaeus and Philetus.

And we'll have you answer that when we come back from our first break.

And our email address, if you'd like to join that listener with a question of your own, is chrisarnsen at

gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And now we're going to hear from a message from a very dear friend of mine, Gary DeMar,

who calls himself a partial futurist.

But he would, although being a post -millennialist, he would share my partial preterist view, although he prefers the term

partial futurist.

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Thank you.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Armson and our discussion today is on the topic of Preterism.

And more specifically, our theme today is titled, About Preterism, The End Is

Past, which is the title of a book by our guest today, Roderick Edwards, a

former full preterist or hyperpreterist.

And we are taking questions via email from our listeners at chrisarmson at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are a hyperpreterist yourself, or obviously you wouldn't call yourself that, but

you fit the definition of a hyperpreterist that my guest and I are using, and you'd rather not draw attention to yourself.

Perhaps it's because that view is in great opposition to your own

elders, your own denomination, etc.

And for whatever reason, why it's a personal and private matter, we will allow you to remain anonymous.

But please, if it's just a general question on theology and eschatology, please give us at least your first name, city and state of

residence, and your country of residence.

And the anonymous listener, before the break, as you may remember, Roderick,

asked you how hyperpreterists respond to the

claim by those who are their eschatological and theological opponents that

they are guilty of the heresies of Hymenaeus and Philetus, and perhaps you could even elaborate on what

that heresy actually is.

I'm sorry, can you start again?

Because I accidentally had you on mute, I'm sorry.

I feel compelled to use the NASB because your commercial there was so...

Yes, the NASB is very largely responsible for the show's existence, so...

...and they are jeopardizing the faith of

your Christ,

with the ones that we thought of

in the AD 70 doctrine.

So the answer is, how are we about you?

You can't avoid it.

Before AD 70, we're talking about the resurrection happening.

Before AD 70, they were an error.

But after AD 70, they wouldn't have been an error,

addressing anything beyond,

unless post

AD 70...

So do you...

...that Hymenaeus and Philetus, they were wrong at that time.

Now, do you think that that is an adequate

response from a full preterist or a hyperpreterist?

Do you believe that they are accurately called, or should I

say, that they are accurately charged with the heresy of Hymenaeus and Philetus?

No, I would not say they're accurately charged, because again, I would agree with them that

you would have to...

So in other words, you think that it's a heresy to deny the future

resurrection of the dead and the return of Christ, but that's just not a verse that you use to prove that.

Okay.

Well, by the way, thank you, anonymous listener, and if you give me your full name and mailing address, obviously that will

not be disclosed on the air.

We will send you a free copy of About Preterism, The End Is Past, provided by our guest

Roderick Edwards.

Before we go on to another listener question, if you could give us some of

the key texts that full preterists use

to claim that the return of Christ has already come in

finality, in the past, and that the resurrection of the

dead has already occurred in finality.

Obviously, partial preterists believe that there are different kinds of comings of Christ.

Partial preterists would view the destruction of the temple itself as a coming of Christ, but not his final coming,

and not where he is physically invisibly seen as returning in

his body, that is.

But the hyper -preterist obviously takes it further, hence the adjective hyper.

But if you could explain whatever the key texts and the key

doctrines that you believe set this group of folks outside

of the body of Christ in truth.

All right.

So as you mentioned, I'm leery because I know

it leads into, and

can resonate, needs to be extra careful

because they use some of the main...

Partial and hyper -preterists alike.

In Matthew 24, and they

take from

themselves over again, and they say, wait a minute, that is the temple in the past.

And they feel like, what else has

been three?

And it says, Jesus is

talking to you, not one stone here will be left

on an 87.

The temple was

destroyed in the end of

the age.

A lot of English, especially King James, says the

problem is, and I

think,

and you keep going verse by verse, you ask somebody, when does the time change?

Because in the past, yes, that's past.

Yes, that's past.

In Matthew 24, 24 says, for false christs and false prophets will arise,

mislead many, it's possible, even elect.

29, but immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be

dark, and the moon...

These end time events, again, a full part of what I'm trying to get to,

is

Matthew 24, 32, and 34.

See all these things, recognize that he is near, right at the door, who will say to you, this generation will not pass away until these

things...

And then we get to the...

Don't use these

same

texts.

What do you think will change the future?

I'm still studying that, because I know that even two friends of mine, who I highly

regard, who are both partial preterists or partial futurists, Gary DeMar and

Ken Gentry, for instance, disagree over this somewhat.

So I'm still...

One of the reasons I think that I may have described myself before as somebody who is not

absolutely 100 committed to my view, I am exploring it, but

that's the way that I would describe myself.

That's the way I would best describe myself as where I'm leaning anyway,

is partial preterism and amillennialism, unlike most of my partial preterist

friends who are post -millennial.

But I have to reiterate that the church where I'm a member does not, to my knowledge, doesn't take an official position

on it, but I know that at least one of my pastors is not any kind of a

preterist, or at least one that would be identified as a partial preterist because

he revealed that during a sermon on revelation during a series on the subject.

So I haven't quite come to a concrete conclusion on that, but

there are some things that I think make sense from a partial preterist view.

And I think that many Christians take far too much

of revelation and put it completely in the future, whereas

it would seem strange to me that some of the warnings and so on

of John in the book of Revelation were not something happening to the churches or

an imminent threat to the churches of his day.

I would even wonder sometimes if he would be considered a false prophet by the church

had not some of those things actually come to pass while they were alive.

But let's go to...

Well, actually, yeah, I'll have to ask this next question and have you answer it when we come back

from the break, because you're not going to have enough time to answer it because we have to break in two minutes.

Let me go ahead and do that.

No, you can't, because we don't have enough time.

We're going to be going through it because you could do that when we return, but not right now.

In fact, I'll just go to the break now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And keep in mind, folks, I'm asking you to be patient with me, with us, because this is the

longer than normal break in the middle of the show.

Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show

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And therefore, while we air our globally heard commercials, they air their

own local public service announcements and other things that localize

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and all of their programming to Lake City, Florida.

So please be patient during this longer break.

Use this time wisely.

Please write down as much of the information as you can provided by our advertisers so that you can more

frequently and more successfully patronize our

advertisers because that will keep them happy, that will keep them interested in continuing to sponsor this show.

And that is absolutely essential for the existence of this program.

We depend upon our advertisers to exist.

So please try to keep them happy, even if it just means responding to their ads by telling them, thank you so

much for sponsoring Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And also, as I said, send in your emails with questions on the end times, on preterism to chrisarmsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarmsen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back right after these messages from our sponsors.

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In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here.

Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach and debate at numerous venues, some of my

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

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I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

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It's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron

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Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would.

All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church

in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he

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They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Ironson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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South Carolina and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Chuck White at the First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB

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Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions,

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Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives

to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work

of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes,

or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will

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Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org.

That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior and King, Jesus Christ, today and

always.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the

air, like the Historical Bible Society.

The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of

historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of

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Come journey through their website, historicalbiblesociety .org.

The collection includes a complete 11th century Bible, an actual page of the Gutenberg Bible from

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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org today.

Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

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He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts.

Of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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only purchase these books for our brothers and sisters in Christ, who already have the benefit of knowing the

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lost to salvation as well, and give them the gift of eternal life through

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It's very important that we not forget those that we love who are lost when we are purchasing

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So make your Christmas list long and purchase many books, as many as you can

afford to, from solid -ground -books .com.

And make sure you always mention to them that you heard about them from Chris Onsen on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.

And remember, you're not only going to be doing them a favor, and you're not only going to be doing us a favor by keeping our

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I hope that we hear some good news from the founder of solid -ground -books .com very soon,

Mike Adosh, that more orders are flooding in.

That way we know that he will be able to afford to continue

sponsoring this program.

He is a vital sponsor of the show without the support of solid -ground -books .com,

we would likely not exist barring a miracle from God.

So please continue patronizing solid -ground -books .com as often as you can.

Also, folks, if you love this program and you don't want it to disappear.

From the airwaves,.

Please go to ironsharpofzionradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card.

By doing so, if you prefer snail mail, an address, a physical address, will appear on the screen

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That's when you click support at ironsharpofzionradio .com.

You will see that address.

Also, folks, if you'd like to advertise with us, whether it be for your church, power church ministry, your

business, your professional practice, like a medical or law firm, or

perhaps it's a special event that you are involved in orchestrating and promoting, as long

as whatever it is that you are promoting is compatible with what we believe, we would love to help you launch an ad

campaign immediately because we are in urgent need of your advertising dollars.

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you do need to be promoting something that is at the very least

compatible with what I believe.

So, if you are in that category, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put

advertising in the subject line.

And last but not least, folks, if you are not a member of a Bible -believing church, no matter where you live on the

planet Earth, I urge you to please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a

church in the subject line.

I have lists, very extensive lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet Earth and have helped many

people in our audience find churches, sometimes just a few minutes from where they live that they didn't even know existed

in all parts of the globe, and I may be able to help you too.

So, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com if you are in that category and put I need a church in the subject line, whether

it's for yourself or someone that you love who does not have a biblically sound church home or if you're just going on vacation

somewhere and you're not familiar with the good biblically sound churches in that area, I may be able to help.

Send that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in questions to our guest Roderick Edwards on our subject

today, Preterism, and more specifically on his book

about Preterism, The End Is Past, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com and please give us your

first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question is about a personal and private matter.

And before the break, Roderick, you said you wanted to delve into some more texts and revelation?

Yeah, we were talking about

some of the times that Jesus

talks about eschatology and times probably just what I

need here.

Next two texts, 2nd SAB,

then there was a given to me a measuring rod like a worship

in it.

Leave out the courtyard, which is outside the temple and do not measure it because it's been given over to the nation,

holy city for 42 months.

Now this is being told to measure the temple.

Preterists will say, look, see this is the reason because

this is John measuring the temple that leave

out a certain part of it because it's going to be given to the

nation to transfer 42 months, which ends up

being 3 1⁄2 years, which is exact time that the Romans besieged Jerusalem.

Major proof text showing that one, that revelation was written before AD 70 and

two prophecies of the end times are tied together.

Do you disagree with that interpretation?

Because even the partial preterists would hold that view, not just those that were in the heretical camp of hyper preterists.

No, I definitely, I mean, we mentioned about the Geneva Bible.

I definitely believe that a lot of it that we see on the sensational camp as

being like Geneva Bible and some other,

that these things had happened in the past.

It wasn't something new, but unfortunately in America, a lot of us have never heard that because we were raised as

dissensationalists.

So we always thought everything was future.

So the first time we hear that,

I do believe that he's talking about the temple and the end of

sin and other things.

Right.

And obviously, just as we were mentioning or discussing before the

program, you might've even mentioned it during the interview, and I just don't recall right now, but

just because something can lead or can be distorted

to justify one becoming something that is a

twisted and in perhaps extreme view of whatever it

is that is their starting point does not disprove the

truthfulness.

Or the reality.

Of the more orthodox version of that view.

Like for instance, Calvinism.

There are people who will say, if you believe in Calvinism, if you believe in the

five points of Calvinism, if you believe that God is already predetermined,

preordained before the foundation of the world, those who would be saved, then there's no reason to evangelize and

you'll become a hyper -Calvinist and you'll stop evangelizing and all these things that are

caricatures and slanders of historical biblical Calvinism, just because there are people

that distort the truth does not call into question the truth where they

began.

Am I explaining myself fairly clearly?

That's exactly right.

I just think that that's not up in it

as we see

somebody who's

weaker.

Yes, and there's also something that I have to be careful about.

I am not by any stretch of the imagination an

expert on the field in which we are discussing, and therefore I don't want to

represent the position in an official way where there are far more qualified people who have

exhaustively researched these issues at great depth, even those that know the original languages of

scripture and so on, who would far better represent a partial

preterist view than I ever would.

So I have to be careful about delving into matters that are above my pay grade,

because this show is listened to by tens of thousands of people, so I don't want to present a straw man

to hyper -preterists or even those who are

dispensational and other opponents of partial preterism

by giving a straw man, well, Chris Arnzen said this or that, and therefore

it was easily debunked.

You know, I don't want to...

I'm not somebody who would be an official representative of that position.

In fact, there is a question now from John in Bangor, Maine, who

asks, I was wondering if your guest was recognized as somebody thoroughly

knowledgeable on full preterism when he was still embracing that point of view.

The reason I ask is that I was wondering how to refute the notion that

many of his opponents today, who are still hyper -preterists, that he

is not qualified to be speaking on these issues.

If

you're

the

guy

who was the main speaker of full preterism telling people that I was the most dangerous guy against it, then I think at

least you should refutation it

and go, hey,

this is going to be out,

and that won't help you that way.

By the way, you'll be happy to know, right.

While I was speaking with you, I was getting texted by Sam Frost who was

expressing his pleasure that you're my guest today and saying that you're a solid guy and all that, so...

And we used to be actually, I mean, if you want to call it limiters,.

During...

Even when I was a full preterist, he was advocating almost a

structured

view to claim he's a pastor.

Yeah, well, obviously he's departed from that view with a vengeance.

Right, right.

I hope that answers the question.

I don't like to say...

The listener, John in Bangor, Maine, was merely asking if you were recognized by those in that camp as somebody

who knew what he was talking about, and you just demonstrated that Sam Frost, while he was still a full

preterist or hyper -preterist, had...

The point is...

Excuse me?

...that we wanted attention or something.

I don't get why they say that.

By the way, John in Bangor, Maine, you have also won a free copy of About Preterism.

The end is past, so make sure that we get your full mailing address in Bangor, Maine.

Do you have any other of the key areas where

full or hyper -preterists have, in your opinion, departed from what we could call

and identify as true biblical Christianity?

Probably any...

If anything,

they have believed that believers are yet to be, that the end of

sin is yet to be.

We'll try to get you to believe that that's not the case, and they'll say that eschatology is not a settled field, and

they'll try to get you to come up like a buddy.

Go, hey, let's just squishy -washy.

There's 30 ,000, 33 ,000 denominations.

Let's just discuss this.

They'll try to make it sound like they're just unclear...

Advocate against that strongly, that it's not an unclear doctrinal position, probably the most settled...

We have Christopher from Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says,

other than the fact that full or hyper -preterism is a departure from historic

Christendom, how can you say that this is a gospel -oriented issue,

whereby those that embrace this view are outside of the body of Christ?

Because, as we said earlier,

it's a little bit more talk about the

under

-shepherds who seem

to be that if you came back already, there are no under -shepherds.

Ecclesiology, it's just affecting the nations

who believe that the gospel message of taking the gospel to the...

AD 70.

If that's the case,

AD 70, no reason for judgment, there's no reason to confess then, there's no reason to...

Thank you, Christopher.

You have also won a free copy of the book that we are discussing about preterism, The End Is Past.

And we want to thank not only Roderick Edwards for providing us with these free copies of his book, but also we want to thank

our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, for

actually shipping out these books to our winners at no cost to them or to Iron Trip and Zion

Radio.

And we want to thank cvbbs .com for always blessing us in that way,

shipping out winners, their Bibles and books and other things that they win, which

makes us here at Iron Trip and Zion Radio not responsible for that enormous

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And I would strongly urge you to look up that website

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Either way,.

Both of my sponsors will be blessed in doing so.

Let's see here.

We have a listener from Bobby in Hartsdale, New York.

And Bobby says, can you define or give a label to

your understanding of eschatology today?

I know that from what you've already said, you might not be fond of labels, but do you have

anything that we can at least get a realm of where you are coming from in the area

of eschatology?

I appreciate how he worded it because when I say,

what do you believe now?

You just claim that they're coming

until you do.

So really all I purposely did not

because I

can see

is my belief that I'm reading here in the Bible, my interpretation of it.

It's

called a minimal eschatology, where I believe the four things that I talked about earlier, that Jesus is yet to

come, that the judgment is yet to happen,

and the end of sin.

Beyond that, I try not to go any further.

Abomination of death with Timothy 2, it says, you know,

all the end result is not going to

be good.

Well, thank you, Bobby.

And you've also won a free copy of About Preterism, The End is Past and cvbbs .com.

We'll ship that out to you.

We need your full mailing address in Hartsdale, New York.

So get that to us right away.

We have, let's see here.

We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, right here in our area of Iron Shepherds, Iron

Radio.

And B .B. asks, I heard somebody during the Sam Frost, Don

Preston debate on this very issue on Iron Shepherds, Iron Radio.

Ask Sam Frost if he believed he was lost when he was still a

hyperpreterist, having been someone who departed from that view and now claims that it is a false

theology that puts one outside of the genuine saving faith.

How would you categorize yourself back then?

Do you believe that you were not regenerate back then?

Or was this just an error that you had as a born again Christian and were led out of it by the Holy Spirit?

One of the tenets are unsaved, always saved.

I can say,

was I

unsaved?

No, I do not think I would have died as a

full Christian.

I would have followed you in the teaching, but it does not

mean only God's determination.

Obviously, if a thief on the cross who appears to have not done anything at the very last moment says, you know, pray for me to be in

your kingdom and today you will be, I cannot say who is and who is not going to be in heaven.

You have to pay homage to people and people around you when you advocate anything that is

advocating heresy.

Yeah, and let me ask you a question of my own in that regard, because there are all sorts

of issues that would fall into that category, like issues like the Trinity and so on.

Now, do you view as being in a different category, a unique

category, those studied men who persist and

continue unrepentantly in teaching a

heresy like those that oppose the Trinity, those that are oneness Pentecostals and Unitarians and so on,

those that are hyper -preterists, those that you could come up with a lot of different things,

that they are in a different category, especially if they forever remain

aggressively proselytizing that view, trying to corrupt members of the body of

Christ with their view.

There's a different category for those folks than your average person who has been

temporarily duped by it.

And one of the reasons why I believe that there are two different categories of people

is that in Galatians, Paul, interestingly enough,

calls the Galatians his brothers, even though they were, at the time

of his writing, duped by the heresy of the Judaizers.

He treated those teachers of the Judaizer movement as

being false Christians and that they are to be cursed and so

on, that they have no gospel at all.

He seemed to treat them differently than the average Christian in the church that he

planted himself.

He treated them with a little bit more kindness, even though he says that they are fools

and he says it was bewitched you.

He still called them brothers.

So do you think there is a different category there?

I'm still hesitant.

Actually, you mean something different about trying to be hesitant?

I'm thankful that it's a little

detailed into

something.

You can feel free to name names.

I mean, after all, even though you say it's a different heresy, Paul mentioned Heimelitus and Felidus.

So when you see somebody like Don Creston or even John Noe, these men have written books.

How would you, you'd have to be very humble to say, all these

years I invested.

Now, in high school, you'd have to be a very

special cost.

He was pretty heavily into it.

I didn't think that man would ever read it, even when I left before he did two or three years before,

that these people are in a different level.

I'm guessing they are to some degree because they're more

established leaders.

But as if they're actually the ones that are damned and the other ones aren't possibly damned, they're just in error.

Well, one of the reasons I say that is that I know theologians and apologists like my

dear friend, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who says over the years, over the decades

of his ministry as an apologist, he has encountered many people

who are in theologically sound churches that,

especially when you're talking about the average individual in those churches, define the

Trinity as a modalist would, as a Oneness Pentecostal would,

unconsciously.

And he would consider those folks that might naively

misunderstand the historical definition of the Trinity, he would, and clumsily try to

describe it, he would consider those folks as not necessarily, of

course, he's not omniscient, but not necessarily being on equal footing and

therefore equally deserving of being viewed as a false Christian, as a

studied seminary professor in a Oneness Pentecostal institution, who aggressively

attacks the Trinity at nearly every opportunity.

Do you understand what I'm saying there?

Definitely.

It brings to mind how it says when you go before the Lord...

Okay, we have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who

says, what is the most troubling text to you that hyper

-preterists present as proof of their view that you have a hurdle to

overcome in trying to re -interpret or exegete.

In a way that.

Opposes their understanding?

To a collection of...

All these texts here are difficult for any

immediate...

immediacy or...

When you read these texts, you have to figure out how you can... in

the future, but you have to figure out how they would apply.

For example, there's one where Jesus talks about how he's going to sit at the right hand of the Father.

I see that happened in 1870.

But if you see it right, you can understand that historically, scholars have understood that as Jesus saying, I'm

going to the throne next to my Father, and it's even the people who rejected me

that I was who I said I was the Messiah.

It isn't something about him coming back.

It's that I'm being exalted to my kingship.

The time texts are difficult.

Well, thank you, Joseph.

You've also won a free copy of Roderick's book about preterism.

The end is past, so make sure you give us your full mailing address in South Central Pennsylvania so that CVBBS

.com can ship that out to you no charge to you or to us.

We're going to our final break.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the last breaks.

But please, if you have a question and you want to join us on the air with that question,

please send it in fairly quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you have a question, send them in immediately because we are rapidly running out of time.

Roderick, I want to make sure that before I take any listener question that you summarize in about five

minutes what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today that they can walk

away with this program still remaining within their thoughts.

From my own experience, it's easy to get into error.

Do not forsake yourself with assembly because you need to where we

think it's okay to be completely, completely different.

We need to be careful with that.

So that's what I hope that people will take away.

That's for people who are prejudiced to see

how they got there.

And let's see.

We have a couple more listeners who have questions.

We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

And he asks, from what I understand, there are very few, to put it mildly,

actual churches that would describe themselves as full preterists.

Is that true?

Are there really.

Not too many actual churches?

Or is most of this view being held by maverick Christians who are not

associated or connected with any official body?

It's not only by maverick Christians.

It's not in any kind of larger body or denomination.

Typically, when that happens, the denomination typically excommunicates the entire.

Yeah, but even the view, not of all.

I got to make sure I'm not broad brushing because I know that Don Preston, having heard him say it from his own

mouth, that he still believes in practicing the Lord's Supper and baptism.

But there are some whose full preterism actually led

them to abandon those very things.

Am I right?

I mean, we call it, so basically, the Niminists.

If you believe that all things are...

Let's see, we have RJ in White

Plains, New York, who says, is this group known as full preterists a

monolithic group?

Or is there a lot of infighting with people that even disassociate themselves from one another?

Kind of about, because you look back in 1990s, they were more united.

The end of 1990s and 2000, they started breaking up

because they

believe that they're no longer being judged for saying...

Definitely, but we began to see that even our views weren't consistent.

No unity, a lot of that unity there was...

Well, thank you, RJ.

And I don't know if I remembered to tell CJ and some of the other listeners who have sent in

questions that you have all won so far.

We haven't run out yet.

You've all won a free copy of About Preterism.

The end is past.

Thanks to the generosity of Roderick Edwards, who provided these books.

And also thanks to the generosity of CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service

will actually be shipping these books out to you.

Let's see here.

We have another anonymous listener.

We have an anonymous listener who says, I have been continually

finding what I believe to be very believable arguments in favor of what

you are calling full preterism.

And I was wondering what you could tell me at this point, although I may be asking too much in the brief time that is

left in the show, that would dissuade me from this leaning, leaning, L -E -A -N

-I -N -G.

By the way, I think I heard something that I would strongly disagree with.

I don't think that Luther's opposition to the Church of Rome was a minor issue.

I wouldn't say it was a minor issue.

I would be saying what I meant by that is just

to say I'm only going to look at the Bible.

So, yes, and I believe that the Roman Catholic Church departed from their ancient faith.

They departed from the Church Fathers.

But we're actually out of time and it's been really fascinating discussing this with you, Roderick.

How do our listeners.

Get a hold of the book?

Great.

I want to thank you so much for being an excellent guest.

I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all always to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner.

Amen.