December 10, 2020 Show with Roderick Edwards on “About Preterism: The End Is Past”

The Program’s Opening and Scripture-Based Mission

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Introducing the Preterism Discussion and Roderick Edwards

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 10th day of December 2020.

There is an interesting phenomenon in the body of Christ that continues to divide brothers and sisters, and that is the area of eschatology known as preterism. And today we are going to be discussing for the second time, for the second time in 12 years, this issue with my guest today, Roderick Edwards, who is a former full preterist, also known by its critics as a former hyper preterist.

And he is the author of About Preterism, The End Is Past. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after a very long absence, Roderick Edwards.

Thank you so much for the opportunity. It's almost 12 years to the day. I think it was December 12th last time.

Wow.

I appreciate it.

Right. And that was not even planned to be that close to the exact date. It just happened in providence to turn out that way. Well, Roderick, why don't you give us some of your background as far as your, even though you may have done this 12 years ago, it's been so long, why don't you give us a summary of your salvation testimony, including what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what kind of circumstances our Sovereign Lord providentially raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you?

Obviously, as the analogy of Christ being raised up. And no one comments on it. I'm amazed. I'm like, oh my God, before I went through a very...

Yes. The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America is the official title of the denomination.

That's because I really, this really gets in my way sometimes because I'm analyzing...

Well, I'm sorry.

That's my background on that.

Yeah. Well, today we are discussing a very controversial issue. And I have to give a caveat to our audience. Today, the subject at hand is going to involve things that my guest and I both agree over and also may disagree over.

I happen to be a partial preterist, unlike most partial preterists that I know. I am not post-millennial. I am an amillennialist. Although I am not dyed in the wool about a lot of my eschatological views, I just know for certain that I believe in a visible physical return of Christ and a visible physical bodily resurrection of the dead that is still in our future.

And I believe that those issues, as my guest does, are absolutely essential and crucial for biblical Christianity. But where we part company is that I believe my guest has departed from preterism altogether, but he can further clarify that himself.

And if you could, why don't you define preterism first and foremost?

Labels, Calvinism, and the Meaning of Preterism

Right, but obviously, there are people in cults that say the same thing.

There is a difficulty that we who are Christians face in that using labels can become problematic when people misunderstand those labels and they have a slanderous or caricatured association with those labels, presuppositions that are false when it comes to those labels.

Obviously, since we are both Calvinists, we know that many, many, many people who are opposed to Calvinism, especially those that are the most vehemently opposed to it, typically totally misunderstand it.

And very often, these same folks have only read the works that critique Calvinism. They've never read, some of them never read a single page of a single book by a Calvinist. So, it's one of those things where that can be a difficulty and also just saying, well, I'm just a Bible-believing Christian.

Well, yeah, so do the Mormons and so do the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that, and so does all kinds of folks. So, we're never completely in an area of safety or preventing confusion or disagreement when we are trying to defend and explain what we believe.

That's the reason why they use the word historical Christian. That way, they immediately say, well, what does that mean? At least we get on to the realm of denominations, there's a continuity, and then I can get to that point.

Well, tell us about how you came to first hear about Preterism. And it is interesting that, as far as my experience, most Preterists, at least those that I have met and heard about, have come from two different backgrounds.

And in fact, many would consider these two very different backgrounds, and yet they have found commonality in partial or hyper-Preterism, the latter of which I think is a heresy. That is, they have either come from theologically Reformed backgrounds or, on the other end of the spectrum, from a Restorationist or Campbellite background, otherwise known as the Churches of Christ, Christian churches, but actually even more predominantly the Churches of Christ, those that are a cappella in their worship, strictly a cappella, which actually, so are the Covenant or Presbyterians.

But it is interesting that, as they say, this subject makes strange bedfellows. Have you found what I've just said to be true?

Yes, I mentioned that specifically in the book. As a matter of fact, many of the 1991 book tried to see what he was saying. And so you have this cross, obviously, don't believe the things that were broken, whereas Restoration believes that.

So tell us more about this meeting, how you discovered Preterism, what were the developments in your life and in your thinking as far as embracing it, and did you begin as a partial Preterist, as I am right now, or did you go immediately, or at least quickly, into full-blown hyper-Preterism?

I've become Preterist today, obviously, but you have many in the 90s. There were going to be reading of all people, John Owens, the death of death and the death of Christ. I began to think as much with my head, the death is the last enemy.

It's already been defeated by a few, but I didn't know what I was believing. It didn't have a name for me at the time, so I started getting on the internet looking, does anybody else believe this? Am I just this crazy guy believing this and concluding this, or are there many things that were not true against Stephen?

And when you came to believe in this concept, tell us how it, in practical terms, affected your Christian life, your day-to-day activities and mindset, your view of other Christians outside of that movement.

Give us some kind of an overall sense of where this may have changed other things other than your eschatology.

Right, well, anybody trying to tell you Preterism is just about eschatology, it won't change much there. Calvinism, without knowing much, had nothing to do with those five points. That was the Council of Dorks.

Calvin had been dead long before that was written up. But you have these new Calvinists, and they beat their chests, and then many Christians, and it seems like that's the reason why.

Just to let you know, I actually, now, I don't think that, I don't know if the term threw out or throw out is the term that I would like to use, but I do believe that this is such a serious issue. Even though I'm a partial Preterist, I believe that the crossing over into full-blown hyper-Preterism is such a serious heresy that I believe that it does demand discipline and even excommunication for the unrepentant over this issue, especially when they are zealously trying to proselytize that view in a congregation.

Would you agree with that now, what I just said?

Yes, I agreed with it shortly even after. Even while I was a Preterist, I was trying to be arrogant, because 2 ,000 years ago it didn't get played, because they won't—.

Another clarification I'd like to make is that the majority of those in both the Reformed movement, also known as the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace and Calvinism, the majority are not hyper-Preterist.

In fact, I think that I would be accurate to say that most are not even partial Preterist, like I am. And I know that my own congregation, where I'm a member, I know that at least one of my pastors is not a partial Preterist, because he's preaching through Revelation right now, and he made that clear during his last sermon.

And also, I could say the same from my experience with my friends and brethren in the Church of Christ. In fact, I've seen some pretty animated debates between Amillennial ministers in the Church of Christ and hyper-Preterists.

So I just wanted to make that clear as well. I didn't want to give anybody a false impression that there's something deeply connected with either of those camps. Do you have any idea why, though, those two camps of theological background seem to be most drawn to hyper-Preterism?

I really believe it's because those two camps, where their denominations are not very detailed, they're hermeneutical, they just tell you stories, and you kind of pass them by, and that's it. You say, well, this could be true, and this could be true, and this could be true.

You said that you believe that that might be true, but if you look at the Geneva Bible, the one that's used mainly by the original Calvin, every Geneva Bible notes on one of the...

Oh, really?

...what you would see today. So yeah, you can look on there and see when Preterism was used in the book.

What does the actual word mean, Preterist?

Right, that word. So nobody used that word or that title. They didn't call themselves that.

And what does it mean?

It means past.

And likely another reason that both Reformed and Church of Christ folk tend to be more drawn to Preterism in general is because neither come from a dispensationalist background, and unfortunately, my brothers and sisters on that end of the spectrum, or that area of eschatology, and I'm speaking especially about, and I hate to use the term layman, but I can't think of an appropriate word to use other than that.

I don't want to falsely claim that the more serious student of the Bible, those that are pastors and seminary professors, have not studied into this issue deeply. So that's why I'm specifying especially layman.

But many dispensationalists have never even explored another idea or another view of eschatology, even though historically it's a very new view and didn't even come about until the 19th century. Prunalinealism existed for nearly the entirety of Christendom, but when you get into...

I'm sorry, you were very muffled. I didn't hear what you just said.

I'm sorry, it's advocated by Justin Martyr, for example.

Yeah, right.

But pre-tribulationalism and the specific details of dispensationalism did not occur until the 19th century. But I think that's another reason why you have those two groups being more drawn to a preterist understanding is because neither had the trappings of dispensationalism.

And so the idea, why is this? Why are we having this discussion today? Why is this view of hyper-preterism? Well, let me finish my sentence. Why is this view of hyper or full preterism so serious that folks like me and you believe that it puts one out of the faith?

Now, obviously, I don't believe that about partial preterism, and I hope you don't either, but I'm talking about full-blown hyper-preterism that denies the future return of Christ and the future resurrection of the dead.

So attractive to a Christian outcome that I never heard it read that way. I never completely, as they called it, and it's the reason why I thought it had nothing to do with their salvation cues. Well, you're saying you're going to hell, but however, I do know that not historically Christians, any more than somebody who is in America, would be.

But I'm assuming that you don't believe that being a partial preterist puts one outside of the faith.

No, because you don't have to have the notes. We can go back all the way through history, and we see somebody in the past, some theologian in the past, who had consistently...

Hymenaeus and Philetus, the Resurrection, and the First Listener Question

We're going to go to our first break right now. Let me ask you a question from a listener, and then I'll have you answer it when we come back. We have an anonymous listener who says, I am becoming more and more interested about the subject of preterism, but I am also not a full or hyper-preterist.

And I was wondering how the hyper-preterists respond to the charge that they are guilty of the heresy of Hymenaeus and Philetus. And we'll have you answer that when we come back from our first break.

And our email address, if you'd like to join that listener with a question of your own, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And now we're going to hear from a message from a very dear friend of mine, Gary DeMar, who calls himself a partial futurist. But he would, although being a post-millennialist, he would share my partial preterist view, although he prefers the term partial futurist.

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Returning to the Question of Hymenaeus and Philetus

Welcome back. This is Chris Armson and our discussion today is on the topic of Preterism. And more specifically, our theme today is titled, About Preterism, The End Is Past, which is the title of a book by our guest today, Roderick Edwards, a former full preterist or hyperpreterist.

And we are taking questions via email from our listeners at chrisarmson at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are a hyperpreterist yourself, or obviously you wouldn't call yourself that, but you fit the definition of a hyperpreterist that my guest and I are using, and you'd rather not draw attention to yourself.

Perhaps it's because that view is in great opposition to your own elders, your own denomination, etc. And for whatever reason, why it's a personal and private matter, we will allow you to remain anonymous.

But please, if it's just a general question on theology and eschatology, please give us at least your first name, city and state of residence, and your country of residence. And the anonymous listener, before the break, as you may remember, Roderick, asked you how hyperpreterists respond to the claim by those who are their eschatological and theological opponents that they are guilty of the heresies of Hymenaeus and Philetus, and perhaps you could even elaborate on what that heresy actually is.

I'm sorry, can you start again? Because I accidentally had you on mute, I'm sorry.

I feel compelled to use the NASB because your commercial there was so...

Yes, the NASB is very largely responsible for the show's existence, so...

...and they are jeopardizing the faith of your Christ, with the ones that we thought of in the AD 70 doctrine. So the answer is, how are we about you? You can't avoid it. Before AD 70, we're talking about the resurrection happening.

Before AD 70, they were an error. But after AD 70, they wouldn't have been an error, addressing anything beyond, unless post AD 70...

So do you...

...that Hymenaeus and Philetus, they were wrong at that time.

Now, do you think that that is an adequate response from a full preterist or a hyperpreterist? Do you believe that they are accurately called, or should I say, that they are accurately charged with the heresy of Hymenaeus and Philetus?

No, I would not say they're accurately charged, because again, I would agree with them that you would have to...

So in other words, you think that it's a heresy to deny the future resurrection of the dead and the return of Christ, but that's just not a verse that you use to prove that.

Okay.

Well, by the way, thank you, anonymous listener, and if you give me your full name and mailing address, obviously that will not be disclosed on the air. We will send you a free copy of About Preterism, The End Is Past, provided by our guest Roderick Edwards.

Matthew 24, Revelation 11, and the Core Preterist Texts

Before we go on to another listener question, if you could give us some of the key texts that full preterists use to claim that the return of Christ has already come in finality, in the past, and that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred in finality.

Obviously, partial preterists believe that there are different kinds of comings of Christ. Partial preterists would view the destruction of the temple itself as a coming of Christ, but not his final coming, and not where he is physically invisibly seen as returning in his body, that is.

But the hyper-preterist obviously takes it further, hence the adjective hyper. But if you could explain whatever the key texts and the key doctrines that you believe set this group of folks outside of the body of Christ in truth.

All right. So as you mentioned, I'm leery because I know it leads into, and can resonate, needs to be extra careful because they use some of the main...

Partial and hyper-preterists alike.

In Matthew 24, and they take from themselves over again, and they say, wait a minute, that is the temple in the past. And they feel like, what else has been three? And it says, Jesus is talking to you, not one stone here will be left on an 87.

The temple was destroyed in the end of the age. A lot of English, especially King James, says the problem is, and I think, and you keep going verse by verse, you ask somebody, when does the time change?

Because in the past, yes, that's past. Yes, that's past. In Matthew 24, 24 says, for false christs and false prophets will arise, mislead many, it's possible, even elect. 29, but immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be dark, and the moon...

These end time events, again, a full part of what I'm trying to get to, is Matthew 24, 32, and 34. See all these things, recognize that he is near, right at the door, who will say to you, this generation will not pass away until these things...

And then we get to the... Don't use these same texts. What do you think will change the future?

I'm still studying that, because I know that even two friends of mine, who I highly regard, who are both partial preterists or partial futurists, Gary DeMar and Ken Gentry, for instance, disagree over this somewhat.

So I'm still... One of the reasons I think that I may have described myself before as somebody who is not absolutely 100 committed to my view, I am exploring it, but that's the way that I would describe myself.

That's the way I would best describe myself as where I'm leaning anyway, is partial preterism and amillennialism, unlike most of my partial preterist friends who are post-millennial. But I have to reiterate that the church where I'm a member does not, to my knowledge, doesn't take an official position on it, but I know that at least one of my pastors is not any kind of a preterist, or at least one that would be identified as a partial preterist because he revealed that during a sermon on revelation during a series on the subject.

So I haven't quite come to a concrete conclusion on that, but there are some things that I think make sense from a partial preterist view. And I think that many Christians take far too much of revelation and put it completely in the future, whereas it would seem strange to me that some of the warnings and so on of John in the book of Revelation were not something happening to the churches or an imminent threat to the churches of his day.

I would even wonder sometimes if he would be considered a false prophet by the church had not some of those things actually come to pass while they were alive. But let's go to... Well, actually, yeah, I'll have to ask this next question and have you answer it when we come back from the break, because you're not going to have enough time to answer it because we have to break in two minutes.

Let me go ahead and do that.

No, you can't, because we don't have enough time. We're going to be going through it because you could do that when we return, but not right now. In fact, I'll just go to the break now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And keep in mind, folks, I'm asking you to be patient with me, with us, because this is the longer than normal break in the middle of the show. Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the FCC to localize this show to Lake City, Florida.

And therefore, while we air our globally heard commercials, they air their own local public service announcements and other things that localize Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and all of their programming to Lake City, Florida.

So please be patient during this longer break. Use this time wisely. Please write down as much of the information as you can provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and more successfully patronize our advertisers because that will keep them happy, that will keep them interested in continuing to sponsor this show.

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And also, as I said, send in your emails with questions on the end times, on preterism to chrisarmsen at gmail .com. Chrisarmsen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back right after these messages from our sponsors. We are excited to announce another new member of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family, Bhanu Gadi, owner of three New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

Bhanu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic. Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000. That's 516 -354 -2000. Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com. That's L-E-E-S drugsrx .com. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.

Greetings in the matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through. In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.

I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well. He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness and the beauty in what God has designed and he has erupted into praise.

In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust God's design.

And once we do,.

There is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him. When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness. Which can be pretty serious.

Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

Thank you.

Revelation 11, the Temple, and the Limits of Partial Preterism

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.