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December 10, 2020
RODERICK EDWARDS, & former Full Preterist & author of “ABOUT PRETERISM: THE END IS PAST”
Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.
Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 10th day of December 2020.
There is an interesting phenomenon in the body of Christ that continues to divide brothers and sisters, and that is the area of eschatology known as preterism. And today we are going to be discussing for the second time, for the second time in 12 years, this issue with my guest today, Roderick Edwards, who is a former full preterist, also known by its critics as a former hyper preterist.
And he is the author of About Preterism, The End Is Past. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after a very long absence, Roderick Edwards.
Thank you so much for the opportunity. It's almost 12 years to the day. I think it was December 12th last time.
Wow.
I appreciate it.
Right. And that was not even planned to be that close to the exact date. It just happened in providence to turn out that way. Well, Roderick, why don't you give us some of your background as far as your, even though you may have done this 12 years ago, it's been so long, why don't you give us a summary of your salvation testimony, including what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what kind of circumstances our Sovereign Lord providentially raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you?
Obviously, as the analogy of Christ being raised up. And no one comments on it. I'm amazed. I'm like, oh my God, before I went through a very...
Yes. The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America is the official title of the denomination.
That's because I really, this really gets in my way sometimes because I'm analyzing...
Well, I'm sorry.
That's my background on that.
Yeah. Well, today we are discussing a very controversial issue. And I have to give a caveat to our audience. Today, the subject at hand is going to involve things that my guest and I both agree over and also may disagree over.
I happen to be a partial preterist, unlike most partial preterists that I know. I am not post-millennial. I am an amillennialist. Although I am not dyed in the wool about a lot of my eschatological views, I just know for certain that I believe in a visible physical return of Christ and a visible physical bodily resurrection of the dead that is still in our future.
And I believe that those issues, as my guest does, are absolutely essential and crucial for biblical Christianity. But where we part company is that I believe my guest has departed from preterism altogether, but he can further clarify that himself.
And if you could, why don't you define preterism first and foremost?
Right, but obviously, there are people in cults that say the same thing.
There is a difficulty that we who are Christians face in that using labels can become problematic when people misunderstand those labels and they have a slanderous or caricatured association with those labels, presuppositions that are false when it comes to those labels.
Obviously, since we are both Calvinists, we know that many, many, many people who are opposed to Calvinism, especially those that are the most vehemently opposed to it, typically totally misunderstand it.
And very often, these same folks have only read the works that critique Calvinism. They've never read, some of them never read a single page of a single book by a Calvinist. So, it's one of those things where that can be a difficulty and also just saying, well, I'm just a Bible-believing Christian.
Well, yeah, so do the Mormons and so do the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that, and so does all kinds of folks. So, we're never completely in an area of safety or preventing confusion or disagreement when we are trying to defend and explain what we believe.
That's the reason why they use the word historical Christian. That way, they immediately say, well, what does that mean? At least we get on to the realm of denominations, there's a continuity, and then I can get to that point.
Well, tell us about how you came to first hear about Preterism. And it is interesting that, as far as my experience, most Preterists, at least those that I have met and heard about, have come from two different backgrounds.
And in fact, many would consider these two very different backgrounds, and yet they have found commonality in partial or hyper-Preterism, the latter of which I think is a heresy. That is, they have either come from theologically Reformed backgrounds or, on the other end of the spectrum, from a Restorationist or Campbellite background, otherwise known as the Churches of Christ, Christian churches, but actually even more predominantly the Churches of Christ, those that are a cappella in their worship, strictly a cappella, which actually, so are the Covenant or Presbyterians.
But it is interesting that, as they say, this subject makes strange bedfellows. Have you found what I've just said to be true?
Yes, I mentioned that specifically in the book. As a matter of fact, many of the 1991 book tried to see what he was saying. And so you have this cross, obviously, don't believe the things that were broken, whereas Restoration believes that.
So tell us more about this meeting, how you discovered Preterism, what were the developments in your life and in your thinking as far as embracing it, and did you begin as a partial Preterist, as I am right now, or did you go immediately, or at least quickly, into full-blown hyper-Preterism?
I've become Preterist today, obviously, but you have many in the 90s. There were going to be reading of all people, John Owens, the death of death and the death of Christ. I began to think as much with my head, the death is the last enemy.
It's already been defeated by a few, but I didn't know what I was believing. It didn't have a name for me at the time, so I started getting on the internet looking, does anybody else believe this? Am I just this crazy guy believing this and concluding this, or are there many things that were not true against Stephen?
And when you came to believe in this concept, tell us how it, in practical terms, affected your Christian life, your day-to-day activities and mindset, your view of other Christians outside of that movement.
Give us some kind of an overall sense of where this may have changed other things other than your eschatology.
Right, well, anybody trying to tell you Preterism is just about eschatology, it won't change much there. Calvinism, without knowing much, had nothing to do with those five points. That was the Council of Dorks.
Calvin had been dead long before that was written up. But you have these new Calvinists, and they beat their chests, and then many Christians, and it seems like that's the reason why.
Just to let you know, I actually, now, I don't think that, I don't know if the term threw out or throw out is the term that I would like to use, but I do believe that this is such a serious issue. Even though I'm a partial Preterist, I believe that the crossing over into full-blown hyper-Preterism is such a serious heresy that I believe that it does demand discipline and even excommunication for the unrepentant over this issue, especially when they are zealously trying to proselytize that view in a congregation.
Would you agree with that now, what I just said?
Yes, I agreed with it shortly even after. Even while I was a Preterist, I was trying to be arrogant, because 2 ,000 years ago it didn't get played, because they won't—.
Another clarification I'd like to make is that the majority of those in both the Reformed movement, also known as the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace and Calvinism, the majority are not hyper-Preterist.
In fact, I think that I would be accurate to say that most are not even partial Preterist, like I am. And I know that my own congregation, where I'm a member, I know that at least one of my pastors is not a partial Preterist, because he's preaching through Revelation right now, and he made that clear during his last sermon.
And also, I could say the same from my experience with my friends and brethren in the Church of Christ. In fact, I've seen some pretty animated debates between Amillennial ministers in the Church of Christ and hyper-Preterists.
So I just wanted to make that clear as well. I didn't want to give anybody a false impression that there's something deeply connected with either of those camps. Do you have any idea why, though, those two camps of theological background seem to be most drawn to hyper-Preterism?
I really believe it's because those two camps, where their denominations are not very detailed, they're hermeneutical, they just tell you stories, and you kind of pass them by, and that's it. You say, well, this could be true, and this could be true, and this could be true.
You said that you believe that that might be true, but if you look at the Geneva Bible, the one that's used mainly by the original Calvin, every Geneva Bible notes on one of the...
Oh, really?
...what you would see today. So yeah, you can look on there and see when Preterism was used in the book.
What does the actual word mean, Preterist?
Right, that word. So nobody used that word or that title. They didn't call themselves that.
And what does it mean?
It means past.
And likely another reason that both Reformed and Church of Christ folk tend to be more drawn to Preterism in general is because neither come from a dispensationalist background, and unfortunately, my brothers and sisters on that end of the spectrum, or that area of eschatology, and I'm speaking especially about, and I hate to use the term layman, but I can't think of an appropriate word to use other than that.
I don't want to falsely claim that the more serious student of the Bible, those that are pastors and seminary professors, have not studied into this issue deeply. So that's why I'm specifying especially layman.
But many dispensationalists have never even explored another idea or another view of eschatology, even though historically it's a very new view and didn't even come about until the 19th century. Prunalinealism existed for nearly the entirety of Christendom, but when you get into...
I'm sorry, you were very muffled. I didn't hear what you just said.
I'm sorry, it's advocated by Justin Martyr, for example.
Yeah, right.
But pre-tribulationalism and the specific details of dispensationalism did not occur until the 19th century. But I think that's another reason why you have those two groups being more drawn to a preterist understanding is because neither had the trappings of dispensationalism.
And so the idea, why is this? Why are we having this discussion today? Why is this view of hyper-preterism? Well, let me finish my sentence. Why is this view of hyper or full preterism so serious that folks like me and you believe that it puts one out of the faith?
Now, obviously, I don't believe that about partial preterism, and I hope you don't either, but I'm talking about full-blown hyper-preterism that denies the future return of Christ and the future resurrection of the dead.
So attractive to a Christian outcome that I never heard it read that way. I never completely, as they called it, and it's the reason why I thought it had nothing to do with their salvation cues. Well, you're saying you're going to hell, but however, I do know that not historically Christians, any more than somebody who is in America, would be.
But I'm assuming that you don't believe that being a partial preterist puts one outside of the faith.
No, because you don't have to have the notes. We can go back all the way through history, and we see somebody in the past, some theologian in the past, who had consistently...
We're going to go to our first break right now. Let me ask you a question from a listener, and then I'll have you answer it when we come back. We have an anonymous listener who says, I am becoming more and more interested about the subject of preterism, but I am also not a full or hyper-preterist.
And I was wondering how the hyper-preterists respond to the charge that they are guilty of the heresy of Hymenaeus and Philetus. And we'll have you answer that when we come back from our first break.
And our email address, if you'd like to join that listener with a question of your own, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
And now we're going to hear from a message from a very dear friend of mine, Gary DeMar, who calls himself a partial futurist. But he would, although being a post-millennialist, he would share my partial preterist view, although he prefers the term partial futurist.
And we'll be right back after these messages. Here's what Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Trump and Zion Radio recently.
It's good to be back, Chris.
I always enjoy our time. You, I have to tell you, one of the better interviewers out there. And I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.
Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that?
You don't have to owe me anything. We're in good, we're in good shape.
I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself. Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Trump and Zion Radio, airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern time at irontrumpandzionradio .com.
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Thank you.
Welcome back. This is Chris Armson and our discussion today is on the topic of Preterism. And more specifically, our theme today is titled, About Preterism, The End Is Past, which is the title of a book by our guest today, Roderick Edwards, a former full preterist or hyperpreterist.
And we are taking questions via email from our listeners at chrisarmson at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are a hyperpreterist yourself, or obviously you wouldn't call yourself that, but you fit the definition of a hyperpreterist that my guest and I are using, and you'd rather not draw attention to yourself.
Perhaps it's because that view is in great opposition to your own elders, your own denomination, etc. And for whatever reason, why it's a personal and private matter, we will allow you to remain anonymous.
But please, if it's just a general question on theology and eschatology, please give us at least your first name, city and state of residence, and your country of residence. And the anonymous listener, before the break, as you may remember, Roderick, asked you how hyperpreterists respond to the claim by those who are their eschatological and theological opponents that they are guilty of the heresies of Hymenaeus and Philetus, and perhaps you could even elaborate on what that heresy actually is.
I'm sorry, can you start again? Because I accidentally had you on mute, I'm sorry.
I feel compelled to use the NASB because your commercial there was so...
Yes, the NASB is very largely responsible for the show's existence, so...
...and they are jeopardizing the faith of your Christ, with the ones that we thought of in the AD 70 doctrine. So the answer is, how are we about you? You can't avoid it. Before AD 70, we're talking about the resurrection happening.
Before AD 70, they were an error. But after AD 70, they wouldn't have been an error, addressing anything beyond, unless post AD 70...
So do you...
...that Hymenaeus and Philetus, they were wrong at that time.
Now, do you think that that is an adequate response from a full preterist or a hyperpreterist? Do you believe that they are accurately called, or should I say, that they are accurately charged with the heresy of Hymenaeus and Philetus?
No, I would not say they're accurately charged, because again, I would agree with them that you would have to...
So in other words, you think that it's a heresy to deny the future resurrection of the dead and the return of Christ, but that's just not a verse that you use to prove that.
Okay.
Well, by the way, thank you, anonymous listener, and if you give me your full name and mailing address, obviously that will not be disclosed on the air. We will send you a free copy of About Preterism, The End Is Past, provided by our guest Roderick Edwards.
Before we go on to another listener question, if you could give us some of the key texts that full preterists use to claim that the return of Christ has already come in finality, in the past, and that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred in finality.
Obviously, partial preterists believe that there are different kinds of comings of Christ. Partial preterists would view the destruction of the temple itself as a coming of Christ, but not his final coming, and not where he is physically invisibly seen as returning in his body, that is.
But the hyper-preterist obviously takes it further, hence the adjective hyper. But if you could explain whatever the key texts and the key doctrines that you believe set this group of folks outside of the body of Christ in truth.
All right. So as you mentioned, I'm leery because I know it leads into, and can resonate, needs to be extra careful because they use some of the main...
Partial and hyper-preterists alike.
In Matthew 24, and they take from themselves over again, and they say, wait a minute, that is the temple in the past. And they feel like, what else has been three? And it says, Jesus is talking to you, not one stone here will be left on an 87.
The temple was destroyed in the end of the age. A lot of English, especially King James, says the problem is, and I think, and you keep going verse by verse, you ask somebody, when does the time change?
Because in the past, yes, that's past. Yes, that's past. In Matthew 24, 24 says, for false christs and false prophets will arise, mislead many, it's possible, even elect. 29, but immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be dark, and the moon...
These end time events, again, a full part of what I'm trying to get to, is Matthew 24, 32, and 34. See all these things, recognize that he is near, right at the door, who will say to you, this generation will not pass away until these things...
And then we get to the... Don't use these same texts. What do you think will change the future?
I'm still studying that, because I know that even two friends of mine, who I highly regard, who are both partial preterists or partial futurists, Gary DeMar and Ken Gentry, for instance, disagree over this somewhat.
So I'm still... One of the reasons I think that I may have described myself before as somebody who is not absolutely 100 committed to my view, I am exploring it, but that's the way that I would describe myself.
That's the way I would best describe myself as where I'm leaning anyway, is partial preterism and amillennialism, unlike most of my partial preterist friends who are post-millennial. But I have to reiterate that the church where I'm a member does not, to my knowledge, doesn't take an official position on it, but I know that at least one of my pastors is not any kind of a preterist, or at least one that would be identified as a partial preterist because he revealed that during a sermon on revelation during a series on the subject.
So I haven't quite come to a concrete conclusion on that, but there are some things that I think make sense from a partial preterist view. And I think that many Christians take far too much of revelation and put it completely in the future, whereas it would seem strange to me that some of the warnings and so on of John in the book of Revelation were not something happening to the churches or an imminent threat to the churches of his day.
I would even wonder sometimes if he would be considered a false prophet by the church had not some of those things actually come to pass while they were alive. But let's go to... Well, actually, yeah, I'll have to ask this next question and have you answer it when we come back from the break, because you're not going to have enough time to answer it because we have to break in two minutes.
Let me go ahead and do that.
No, you can't, because we don't have enough time. We're going to be going through it because you could do that when we return, but not right now. In fact, I'll just go to the break now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
And keep in mind, folks, I'm asking you to be patient with me, with us, because this is the longer than normal break in the middle of the show. Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the FCC to localize this show to Lake City, Florida.
And therefore, while we air our globally heard commercials, they air their own local public service announcements and other things that localize Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and all of their programming to Lake City, Florida.
So please be patient during this longer break. Use this time wisely. Please write down as much of the information as you can provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and more successfully patronize our advertisers because that will keep them happy, that will keep them interested in continuing to sponsor this show.
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God willing, we'll be right back right after these messages from our sponsors. We are excited to announce another new member of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family, Bhanu Gadi, owner of three New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.
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I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well. He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness and the beauty in what God has designed and he has erupted into praise.
In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust God's design.
And once we do,.
There is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him. When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness. Which can be pretty serious.
Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.
James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.
I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.
I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled and edified by the holy scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.
I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for the recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co-elder, Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective. Try World Now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com.
That's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting, I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter. I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.
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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.
He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.
And knowing this,.
It's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances. I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron Sharpens Iron financially.
Would you consider sending either a one-time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry? I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support.
That's ironsharpensironradio .com.
As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations. The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world. They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship God in spirit and truth.
Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God-centered focus, reading, preaching, and hearing the word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace .com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com. Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654. Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co-host with Chris Ironson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
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South Carolina and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White at the First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Anthony Mathenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
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In Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
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Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ, staff and volunteers meet with young people.
Who need Jesus.
We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus. Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.
Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world-class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.
Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above. For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333. That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.
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Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee. Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.
Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God. If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us on Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.
Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin. Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org. This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign Lord, God, Savior and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.
Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.
The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the Bible's reliability, and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.
Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the Northeast United States, reaching thousands of believers and non-believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the Bible. HBS's founder, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational, historical message that will captivate you and your church.
Come journey through their website, historicalbiblesociety .org. The collection includes a complete 11th century Bible, an actual page of the Gutenberg Bible from 1455, the first book ever printed, the Geneva Bible, the 1611 King James Bible, and much, much more.
Visit historicalbiblesociety .org today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.
Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.
He who will not use the thoughts.
Of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own. You need to read.
Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.
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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
And folks, while there's still time, put your Christmas orders in as quickly as possible by going to solid-ground-books .com solid-ground-books .com and making your selections for all of your Christmas gifts.
And keep in mind, folks, I think it's very important when we purchase the finest in Christian literature, including that which is published and provided by solid-ground-books .com, that we not only purchase these books for our brothers and sisters in Christ, who already have the benefit of knowing the gospel and are already saved.
I ask of you, Lord, I ask of you to pray to the Lord that the books you purchase from solid-ground-books .com are used by Him to draw the lost to salvation as well, and give them the gift of eternal life through embracing the gospel through the bibliocentric literature published by solid-ground-Christian books.
It's very important that we not forget those that we love who are lost when we are purchasing Christian literature. So make your Christmas list long and purchase many books, as many as you can afford to, from solid-ground-books .com.
And make sure you always mention to them that you heard about them from Chris Onsen on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio. And remember, you're not only going to be doing them a favor, and you're not only going to be doing us a favor by keeping our advertiser happy, you're going to be doing yourself and anyone for whom you are purchasing gifts from solid-ground-books .com an enormous favor because of the fact that they carry and publish the best, the finest, in Christian literature from the past and the present.
It's solid-ground-books .com, solid-ground-books .com, and I hope that we hear some good news from the founder of solid-ground-books .com very soon, Mike Adosh, that more orders are flooding in.
That way we know that he will be able to afford to continue sponsoring this program. He is a vital sponsor of the show without the support of solid-ground-books .com, we would likely not exist barring a miracle from God.
So please continue patronizing solid-ground-books .com as often as you can. Also, folks, if you love this program and you don't want it to disappear.
From the airwaves,.
Please go to ironsharpofzionradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card. By doing so, if you prefer snail mail, an address, a physical address, will appear on the screen where you can mail checks made payable to Iron Sharp Zion Radio.
That's when you click support at ironsharpofzionradio .com. You will see that address. Also, folks, if you'd like to advertise with us, whether it be for your church, power church ministry, your business, your professional practice, like a medical or law firm, or perhaps it's a special event that you are involved in orchestrating and promoting, as long as whatever it is that you are promoting is compatible with what we believe, we would love to help you launch an ad campaign immediately because we are in urgent need of your advertising dollars.
You don't have to believe identically with me, but you do need to be promoting something that is at the very least compatible with what I believe. So, if you are in that category, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.
And last but not least, folks, if you are not a member of a Bible-believing church, no matter where you live on the planet Earth, I urge you to please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.
I have lists, very extensive lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet Earth and have helped many people in our audience find churches, sometimes just a few minutes from where they live that they didn't even know existed in all parts of the globe, and I may be able to help you too.
So, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com if you are in that category and put I need a church in the subject line, whether it's for yourself or someone that you love who does not have a biblically sound church home or if you're just going on vacation somewhere and you're not familiar with the good biblically sound churches in that area, I may be able to help.
Send that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in questions to our guest Roderick Edwards on our subject today, Preterism, and more specifically on his book about Preterism, The End Is Past, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com and please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Only remain anonymous if your question is about a personal and private matter. And before the break, Roderick, you said you wanted to delve into some more texts and revelation?
Yeah, we were talking about some of the times that Jesus talks about eschatology and times probably just what I need here. Next two texts, 2nd SAB, then there was a given to me a measuring rod like a worship in it.
Leave out the courtyard, which is outside the temple and do not measure it because it's been given over to the nation, holy city for 42 months. Now this is being told to measure the temple. Preterists will say, look, see this is the reason because this is John measuring the temple that leave out a certain part of it because it's going to be given to the nation to transfer 42 months, which ends up being 3 1⁄2 years, which is exact time that the Romans besieged Jerusalem.
Major proof text showing that one, that revelation was written before AD 70 and two prophecies of the end times are tied together.
Do you disagree with that interpretation? Because even the partial preterists would hold that view, not just those that were in the heretical camp of hyper preterists.
No, I definitely, I mean, we mentioned about the Geneva Bible. I definitely believe that a lot of it that we see on the sensational camp as being like Geneva Bible and some other, that these things had happened in the past.
It wasn't something new, but unfortunately in America, a lot of us have never heard that because we were raised as dissensationalists. So we always thought everything was future. So the first time we hear that, I do believe that he's talking about the temple and the end of sin and other things.
Right. And obviously, just as we were mentioning or discussing before the program, you might've even mentioned it during the interview, and I just don't recall right now, but just because something can lead or can be distorted to justify one becoming something that is a twisted and in perhaps extreme view of whatever it is that is their starting point does not disprove the truthfulness.
Or the reality.
Of the more orthodox version of that view. Like for instance, Calvinism. There are people who will say, if you believe in Calvinism, if you believe in the five points of Calvinism, if you believe that God is already predetermined, preordained before the foundation of the world, those who would be saved, then there's no reason to evangelize and you'll become a hyper-Calvinist and you'll stop evangelizing and all these things that are caricatures and slanders of historical biblical Calvinism, just because there are people that distort the truth does not call into question the truth where they began.
Am I explaining myself fairly clearly?
That's exactly right. I just think that that's not up in it as we see somebody who's weaker.
Yes, and there's also something that I have to be careful about. I am not by any stretch of the imagination an expert on the field in which we are discussing, and therefore I don't want to represent the position in an official way where there are far more qualified people who have exhaustively researched these issues at great depth, even those that know the original languages of scripture and so on, who would far better represent a partial preterist view than I ever would.
So I have to be careful about delving into matters that are above my pay grade, because this show is listened to by tens of thousands of people, so I don't want to present a straw man to hyper-preterists or even those who are dispensational and other opponents of partial preterism by giving a straw man, well, Chris Arnzen said this or that, and therefore it was easily debunked.
You know, I don't want to... I'm not somebody who would be an official representative of that position. In fact, there is a question now from John in Bangor, Maine, who asks, I was wondering if your guest was recognized as somebody thoroughly knowledgeable on full preterism when he was still embracing that point of view.
The reason I ask is that I was wondering how to refute the notion that many of his opponents today, who are still hyper-preterists, that he is not qualified to be speaking on these issues.
If you're the guy who was the main speaker of full preterism telling people that I was the most dangerous guy against it, then I think at least you should refutation it and go, hey, this is going to be out, and that won't help you that way.
By the way, you'll be happy to know, right. While I was speaking with you, I was getting texted by Sam Frost who was expressing his pleasure that you're my guest today and saying that you're a solid guy and all that, so...
And we used to be actually, I mean, if you want to call it limiters,.
During...
Even when I was a full preterist, he was advocating almost a structured view to claim he's a pastor.
Yeah, well, obviously he's departed from that view with a vengeance.
Right, right. I hope that answers the question. I don't like to say...
The listener, John in Bangor, Maine, was merely asking if you were recognized by those in that camp as somebody who knew what he was talking about, and you just demonstrated that Sam Frost, while he was still a full preterist or hyper-preterist, had...
The point is...
Excuse me?
...that we wanted attention or something. I don't get why they say that.
By the way, John in Bangor, Maine, you have also won a free copy of About Preterism. The end is past, so make sure that we get your full mailing address in Bangor, Maine. Do you have any other of the key areas where full or hyper-preterists have, in your opinion, departed from what we could call and identify as true biblical Christianity?
Probably any... If anything, they have believed that believers are yet to be, that the end of sin is yet to be. We'll try to get you to believe that that's not the case, and they'll say that eschatology is not a settled field, and they'll try to get you to come up like a buddy.
Go, hey, let's just squishy-washy. There's 30 ,000, 33 ,000 denominations. Let's just discuss this. They'll try to make it sound like they're just unclear... Advocate against that strongly, that it's not an unclear doctrinal position, probably the most settled...
We have Christopher from Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, other than the fact that full or hyper-preterism is a departure from historic Christendom, how can you say that this is a gospel-oriented issue, whereby those that embrace this view are outside of the body of Christ?
Because, as we said earlier, it's a little bit more talk about the under-shepherds who seem to be that if you came back already, there are no under-shepherds. Ecclesiology, it's just affecting the nations who believe that the gospel message of taking the gospel to the... AD 70.
If that's the case, AD 70, no reason for judgment, there's no reason to confess then, there's no reason to...
Thank you, Christopher. You have also won a free copy of the book that we are discussing about preterism, The End Is Past. And we want to thank not only Roderick Edwards for providing us with these free copies of his book, but also we want to thank our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, for actually shipping out these books to our winners at no cost to them or to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
And we want to thank cvbbs .com for always blessing us in that way, shipping out winners, their Bibles and books and other things that they win, which makes us here at Iron Trip and Zion Radio not responsible for that enormous expense, which actually we could not afford to do on a regular basis.
So thank you, cvbbs .com. And I would strongly urge you to look up that website and see the wealth of fine literature that they offer. And in fact, they carry all of Solid Ground Christian Books titles, and if they don't have them in stock, they will order them for you.
So you might want to first go to Solid-Ground-Books .com which is another one of our sponsors, make a long list of books you want to purchase from them, and then order them from cvbbs .com.
Either way,.
Both of my sponsors will be blessed in doing so. Let's see here. We have a listener from Bobby in Hartsdale, New York. And Bobby says, can you define or give a label to your understanding of eschatology today?
I know that from what you've already said, you might not be fond of labels, but do you have anything that we can at least get a realm of where you are coming from in the area of eschatology?
I appreciate how he worded it because when I say, what do you believe now? You just claim that they're coming until you do. So really all I purposely did not because I can see is my belief that I'm reading here in the Bible, my interpretation of it.
It's called a minimal eschatology, where I believe the four things that I talked about earlier, that Jesus is yet to come, that the judgment is yet to happen, and the end of sin. Beyond that, I try not to go any further.
Abomination of death with Timothy 2, it says, you know, all the end result is not going to be good.
Well, thank you, Bobby. And you've also won a free copy of About Preterism, The End is Past and cvbbs .com. We'll ship that out to you. We need your full mailing address in Hartsdale, New York. So get that to us right away.
We have, let's see here. We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, right here in our area of Iron Shepherds, Iron Radio. And B .B. asks, I heard somebody during the Sam Frost, Don Preston debate on this very issue on Iron Shepherds, Iron Radio.
Ask Sam Frost if he believed he was lost when he was still a hyperpreterist, having been someone who departed from that view and now claims that it is a false theology that puts one outside of the genuine saving faith.
How would you categorize yourself back then? Do you believe that you were not regenerate back then? Or was this just an error that you had as a born again Christian and were led out of it by the Holy Spirit?
One of the tenets are unsaved, always saved. I can say, was I unsaved? No, I do not think I would have died as a full Christian. I would have followed you in the teaching, but it does not mean only God's determination.
Obviously, if a thief on the cross who appears to have not done anything at the very last moment says, you know, pray for me to be in your kingdom and today you will be, I cannot say who is and who is not going to be in heaven.
You have to pay homage to people and people around you when you advocate anything that is advocating heresy.
Yeah, and let me ask you a question of my own in that regard, because there are all sorts of issues that would fall into that category, like issues like the Trinity and so on. Now, do you view as being in a different category, a unique category, those studied men who persist and continue unrepentantly in teaching a heresy like those that oppose the Trinity, those that are oneness Pentecostals and Unitarians and so on, those that are hyper-preterists, those that you could come up with a lot of different things, that they are in a different category, especially if they forever remain aggressively proselytizing that view, trying to corrupt members of the body of Christ with their view.
There's a different category for those folks than your average person who has been temporarily duped by it. And one of the reasons why I believe that there are two different categories of people is that in Galatians, Paul, interestingly enough, calls the Galatians his brothers, even though they were, at the time of his writing, duped by the heresy of the Judaizers.
He treated those teachers of the Judaizer movement as being false Christians and that they are to be cursed and so on, that they have no gospel at all. He seemed to treat them differently than the average Christian in the church that he planted himself.
He treated them with a little bit more kindness, even though he says that they are fools and he says it was bewitched you. He still called them brothers. So do you think there is a different category there?
I'm still hesitant. Actually, you mean something different about trying to be hesitant? I'm thankful that it's a little detailed into something.
You can feel free to name names. I mean, after all, even though you say it's a different heresy, Paul mentioned Heimelitus and Felidus.
So when you see somebody like Don Creston or even John Noe, these men have written books. How would you, you'd have to be very humble to say, all these years I invested. Now, in high school, you'd have to be a very special cost.
He was pretty heavily into it. I didn't think that man would ever read it, even when I left before he did two or three years before, that these people are in a different level. I'm guessing they are to some degree because they're more established leaders.
But as if they're actually the ones that are damned and the other ones aren't possibly damned, they're just in error.
Well, one of the reasons I say that is that I know theologians and apologists like my dear friend, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who says over the years, over the decades of his ministry as an apologist, he has encountered many people who are in theologically sound churches that, especially when you're talking about the average individual in those churches, define the Trinity as a modalist would, as a Oneness Pentecostal would, unconsciously.
And he would consider those folks that might naively misunderstand the historical definition of the Trinity, he would, and clumsily try to describe it, he would consider those folks as not necessarily, of course, he's not omniscient, but not necessarily being on equal footing and therefore equally deserving of being viewed as a false Christian, as a studied seminary professor in a Oneness Pentecostal institution, who aggressively attacks the Trinity at nearly every opportunity.
Do you understand what I'm saying there?
Definitely. It brings to mind how it says when you go before the Lord...
Okay, we have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who says, what is the most troubling text to you that hyper-preterists present as proof of their view that you have a hurdle to overcome in trying to re-interpret or exegete.
In a way that.
Opposes their understanding?
To a collection of... All these texts here are difficult for any immediate... immediacy or... When you read these texts, you have to figure out how you can... in the future, but you have to figure out how they would apply.
For example, there's one where Jesus talks about how he's going to sit at the right hand of the Father. I see that happened in 1870. But if you see it right, you can understand that historically, scholars have understood that as Jesus saying, I'm going to the throne next to my Father, and it's even the people who rejected me that I was who I said I was the Messiah.
It isn't something about him coming back. It's that I'm being exalted to my kingship. The time texts are difficult.
Well, thank you, Joseph. You've also won a free copy of Roderick's book about preterism. The end is past, so make sure you give us your full mailing address in South Central Pennsylvania so that CVBBS .com can ship that out to you no charge to you or to us.
We're going to our final break. It's going to be a lot more brief than the last breaks. But please, if you have a question and you want to join us on the air with that question, please send it in fairly quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.
Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Don't go away. We'll be right back.
After these messages from our sponsors.
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I'm Dr. Tony Costa professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.
I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have. For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church go to hopereformedli .net that's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711.
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Of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own. You need to read.
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Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee. Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin. Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org. This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you have a question, send them in immediately because we are rapidly running out of time. Roderick, I want to make sure that before I take any listener question that you summarize in about five minutes what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today that they can walk away with this program still remaining within their thoughts.
From my own experience, it's easy to get into error. Do not forsake yourself with assembly because you need to where we think it's okay to be completely, completely different. We need to be careful with that.
So that's what I hope that people will take away. That's for people who are prejudiced to see how they got there.
And let's see. We have a couple more listeners who have questions. We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York. And he asks, from what I understand, there are very few, to put it mildly, actual churches that would describe themselves as full preterists.
Is that true?
Are there really.
Not too many actual churches? Or is most of this view being held by maverick Christians who are not associated or connected with any official body?
It's not only by maverick Christians. It's not in any kind of larger body or denomination. Typically, when that happens, the denomination typically excommunicates the entire.
Yeah, but even the view, not of all. I got to make sure I'm not broad brushing because I know that Don Preston, having heard him say it from his own mouth, that he still believes in practicing the Lord's Supper and baptism.
But there are some whose full preterism actually led them to abandon those very things. Am I right?
I mean, we call it, so basically, the Niminists. If you believe that all things are...
Let's see, we have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, is this group known as full preterists a monolithic group? Or is there a lot of infighting with people that even disassociate themselves from one another?
Kind of about, because you look back in 1990s, they were more united. The end of 1990s and 2000, they started breaking up because they believe that they're no longer being judged for saying... Definitely, but we began to see that even our views weren't consistent.
No unity, a lot of that unity there was...
Well, thank you, RJ. And I don't know if I remembered to tell CJ and some of the other listeners who have sent in questions that you have all won so far. We haven't run out yet. You've all won a free copy of About Preterism.
The end is past. Thanks to the generosity of Roderick Edwards, who provided these books. And also thanks to the generosity of CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service will actually be shipping these books out to you.
Let's see here. We have another anonymous listener. We have an anonymous listener who says, I have been continually finding what I believe to be very believable arguments in favor of what you are calling full preterism.
And I was wondering what you could tell me at this point, although I may be asking too much in the brief time that is left in the show, that would dissuade me from this leaning, leaning, L-E-A-N-I-N-G.
By the way, I think I heard something that I would strongly disagree with. I don't think that Luther's opposition to the Church of Rome was a minor issue.
I wouldn't say it was a minor issue. I would be saying what I meant by that is just to say I'm only going to look at the Bible.
So, yes, and I believe that the Roman Catholic Church departed from their ancient faith. They departed from the Church Fathers. But we're actually out of time and it's been really fascinating discussing this with you, Roderick.
How do our listeners.
Get a hold of the book?
Great.
I want to thank you so much for being an excellent guest. I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all always to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.
Amen.