Jan. 25, 2016 Show with Cindee Martin Morgan on “RESCUE ME”: A Pro-Life Novel & Steve Camp on “CHRISTIANS & POLITICS: Living Out TITUS 3:1-8 in Perilous Times”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon, Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth, listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a Monday on this 11th day of January 2015.

I'm sorry, 11th day. I'm a couple of weeks behind, aren't I? A 25th day of January 2015. I think this being buried up to my eyeballs and snow for the past few days has made me have some kind of brain malfunction.

That's okay, and it would be 2016, Chris. 2016. January 25th, 2016, and in spite of our jovial atmosphere right now, we're talking about a couple of very serious issues today. We are going to be, first of all, for the first hour, discussing abortion, and in particular, we're going to be discussing our guest's novel or novella, Rescue Me, which is a pro-life novel, and our guest to discuss that for the first hour is Cindy Martin Morgan, who is the daughter of the late Walter Martin, who is a world-renowned apologist and author, most probably well-known for The Kingdom of the Cults and also his many appearances on the John Ankerberg broadcast back in the 80s and 90s.

And we also have, for our second guest, Steve Camp, who is no stranger to the Iron Sharpens Iron audience, especially the old Iron Sharpens Iron that ran from 2006 through 2011. Steve Camp is an award-winning Christian recording artist who actually won a Grammy Award for a song that he wrote, and he is now currently the pastor of Cross Church in Palm Harbor, Florida, and he is going to be discussing Christians and politics, living out Titus 3, 1 through 8, and Perilous Times, which I hope that you will all listen to in our second hour.

But first of all, let me first welcome our first guest to the broadcast, Cindy Martin Morgan. Hi, Chris, it's an honor to be here. Thanks for having me. And it's my pleasure to have you here, Cindy, and you were a delight to interview the last time, and I'm sure that we will have the same experience this time, and I'm so glad that you could make the time to be on the broadcast.

First of all, before we even go into the discussion of your new novella, your pro-life novella, Rescue Me, tell us something about Walter Martin Jude 3, which is an internet ministry that you operate with your husband.

Well, Walter Martin.

Jude 3 really was established to support the ministry that my dad found on staff. We just have such joy in being a part of all the support that ministry, and to my pro-life music, and now this.

New novella that I've got. Great. And the website for that ministry that you run with your husband?

That's www .WalterMartinJude3 .com. WalterMartinJude3 .com. And it's the number 3. Yes. WalterMartinJude3 .com, right.

Okay, great. And for anyone who is unfamiliar with Walter Martin, it's unlikely that there are too many listeners to Iron, Sharp, and Ziron who are totally unfamiliar with Walter Martin, but those of my listeners who are very young, I do have listeners in their teens, in their 20s, and 30s that may not remember Walter Martin.

But how long ago did your dad go home to glory with Christ? 1989. It was June of 1989. Oh, okay. So then those John Ankerberg programs were all in the 80s then. Yeah, quite some time ago, God took him.

Yeah, that was, time certainly does fly, because I could still remember being glued to my television set in the living room, watching John Ankerberg, and watching your father debate all different cult representatives, and Mitch Pacwa, the Jesuit priest, those were always the most entertaining of the debates.

Yeah. Because in spite of the very stark contrast in theology that often rose to the surface between your dad's debates with Father Mitch Pacwa, they were good friends, so there was no animosity or bitterness or hatred that developed because of this.

This was merely two men trying to bring the truth to light from their own perspective. Obviously, I believe your dad was the one that was on the side of truth in regard to the gospel and all those matters that divide Rome from biblical Christianity, but obviously your dad is sorely missed, but heaven is a richer place waiting for us all.

How young was he when he went home to glory again? He was 60. Wow, that is a lot younger than I thought. I remember being surprised the last time I interviewed you how young he was. That's only about six years older than me.

Amazing. Yeah, it is. Well, we all have a wonderful legacy that he left behind to be blessed from, and again, the masterpiece that he wrote that he is most well known for is Kingdom of the Cults. What else would he have written that our listeners should get a.

Hold of? Well, essential Christianity is heard a lot lately. Even the younger people, you know, 30-ish, 20s, but primarily, of course, the Kingdom of the Cults is, I think, the greatest resource.

And we did bring up in our last interview that you and your husband were on the opposite end of the Calvinist-Arminian debate with your dad. You and your husband are thoroughly reformed in your theology, and your dad was not, although we both agree that he is now.

Yes, he knows the truth. God bless him. Don't laugh if you heard me say that. But tell us, before we even go into the details, I mean, obviously, we can't give away too many details of your novella or your novel, because, you know, people don't want to have the ending or any kind of major part of it that would be better kept a surprise.

They don't want to have that spoiled before they read it. But tell us, first of all, when the pro-life movement became, or the issue of life before birth and the abortion issue, when all these things became a matter of intense importance to you and a matter that would become something that you would passionately be involved in.

In your life as a Christian woman? Sure. I, since I was old enough to become aware of it, but I really wasn't heartbroken over abortion and all of that, but I feel like, you know, in my, probably, I think it was like my late 20s or mid, he was just moving in my heart, where he brought a friend into my life at that time who was so passionate, and her love for the unborn, she was politically trying to fight for them and lawfully, and she really touched me and blessed me with that love and that concern for them.

And God really used it in my heart and in my life to awaken me, you might say, to his heartache and the horror that these people were really facing every single day. And I just, it was weird because, like, for the first, there were, like, weeks that went by where I felt just tremendous grief.

And I've said this many times, but it's really true. I almost feel like God let me just glimpse, just a brief glimpse of his pain in his heart, you know, that they're destroying his little ones. And I had this sense, you know, for weeks that God wanted me to do something, but I didn't know what.

And then one day, I just really felt the Lord pressing, I really felt the Holy Spirit just moving me to, you know, write down that time. And I literally, and I cried as I wrote it. And I just felt that brokenness inside of, you know, oh my goodness, you know, these people are being ripped from their mother's wombs.

And this has just flooded my soul. And that's when everything began to me, I think, where God, you know, once God awakens you, I think, to that horror, you can never turn back. And that's how I wrote, that's when I wrote Wonderfully Made.

Yeah, it's amazing how successful the left has been and the feminist movement and the pro-abortionist movement, how successful they have been in keeping the populace totally ignorant of the brutality of abortion.

There are, obviously, people, abortionists themselves would be the first among them who know full well what's happening during this grotesque and horrific and barbarous procedure. But it's amazing when you hear people, you know, you don't know if they're 100%, you don't know if they're lying, but I've seen people even in the media who are taken aback and are insistent that it can't be as graphic, as horrific, I should say, and as barbarous as it's being described.

One account that immediately comes to mind was, I can still remember when Ron Paul, the father of the current senator from Kentucky who is running in the Republican primary, at least I think he still might be running, Rand Paul, well his dad Ron Paul was a guest on The View.

And I remember Joy, whose last name escapes me, but she's a very left-wing stand-up comedian who was one of the Joy Behar hosts. Joy Behar, yeah, Behar. She was always there to mock and ridicule anything that was conservative.

And she refused to acknowledge some of the things that Ron Paul was saying. When he was describing partial birth abortion, she was acting as if it was the first time she'd ever heard of this. And she said, oh well that would be murder, but you know, that doesn't really happen too often, you know, that kind of a thing.

And I wonder if she immediately wished she could retract those words when she described it as murder. But those kinds of things, that kind of butchery, it's all butchery, but even the more disturbing case of it where there's actually a partially born infant being mutilated while it's still alive, that seems to be harder for people on the left to recognize or admit that those procedures actually occur.

You know, a lot of people are making so much money off of this. It's so profitable. And as we heard recently too, the selling of the baby's body parts. And I read an article about a woman who was doing, excuse me, one of these abortions.

And she was, the woman was on the table and she was about as pregnant as the woman that she was doing the ultrasound for. And right at the time that she was ready to rip one of these limbs. Wow. Yeah.

So the sadness of all of this is we live in a day and age where everybody knows what's going on. And they have an agenda, obviously, to keep people, you know, thinking that this is a matter of choice, not a matter of life and death.

You know, that's because there's just the people that are, you know, involved in all of this, they just are making a fortune. And they're exploiting mothers and they're just, it's, you know, you follow the money.

These people, they want to profit and they don't want to give up the kind of money that this has given them. So kind of incumbent.

Yeah. And I remember not long ago seeing the, another clip, a more recent clip of the Women on the View, mocking the statement that Planned Parenthood was involved in the harvesting of baby parts and saying that that is not what they were doing.

What else could you describe that to be? I mean, is there any other description you could possibly give that?

Well, you know, Satan doesn't have any new tricks to redefine the truth and dumb us down. And just like the New York Times recently about the March for Life in Washington, D .C. that just took place, they said hundreds attended.

Well, it was like about 700 ,000 people that attended. 700 ,000. So nearly a million people. Just, you know, just a little bit different of a number, you know, just detracting from the truth, redefining the truth.

And it's one of Satan's oldest tricks. He wants to redefine and cover the truth and he distorts the truth. You know, Satan likes to mix lies with truth, you know. So the truth was, yes, it was in Washington, D .C.

Yes, it was a March for Life, you know, but he wants to distort the rest of it. And he's just a master at that. And that's what we're seeing in our country is just that.

That satanic influence on our nation. Yeah. And the media has a purposeful design to give the impression that this is mainly white, middle-class Americans who are protesting the infanticide that is taking place through abortion.

And I know black Christian activists who are involved in the pro-life movement who have told me that they will be at pro-life fundraising banquets and things. And when the news media is there, the cameramen purposely, as they're spanning across the audience, they will stop filming when they come to the black tables or the tables that are dominated by black guests.

They will move away and then start filming again to the white audience. And of course, the NAACP refuses to acknowledge this infanticide and they refuse to give a platform to those African-Americans who are vehemently opposed to the butchering of unborn children, which actually began as a way to exterminate the black race from the face of the earth.

That's just so clearly documented. This is not some bizarre conspiracy theory. No, it's the truth. Yeah. In fact, you could even go to Margaret Sanger's writings on the internet. And I'm even talking about internet sites that aren't biased against her.

And you could just see in her own words the fact that she wanted to use sterilization and abortion to basically rid the human race of the black population. And it was almost looked upon as a mercy killing because they are too mentally incapable of taking care of themselves and so on, according to Margaret Sanger and her racist colleagues that still exist to this day.

But outrageous.

Yeah, it's a deplorable thing. In fact, I strongly recommend anybody listening to get a hold of a DVD. It's one of the best pro-life DVDs I've ever viewed. It's called MAFA 21, M as in Michael, A, A, F as in Frank, A, 21.

It is a DVD that thoroughly documents the history of Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry and exposes the racist agenda that was behind it all and the cooperation that Margaret Sanger and the eugenics, those who were involved in the eugenics movement here in the United States in the early 20th century, how they cooperated with the Nazis in Germany prior to America being involved in World War II.

And it's just amazing. Margaret Sanger actually had Nazi scientists writing for her magazine and so on. But it's just an amazing thing that we in a quote, quote, civilized, enlightened society can sit back as the millions of babies are ripped apart and no one is really making any progress in having this butchery outlawed it seems.

But anyway, you went from having a passion to defend the life of the unborn to wanting to write about it. There may be other novels or novellas written on the subject of abortion. Yours is the first that has ever come to my attention.

I don't know if you're aware of any other. But what made you decide to use a novel or novella as a vehicle to convey the story.

Of abortion to your readers? Well, it's interesting because the idea for the book, actually, I actually thought of the somewhat some of the storyline in my 20s, early 30s. I just I raising four daughters and homeschooling and life being as it was, we focus on those songs.

And of course, like I wanted to, in the late 90s, I actually wrote, but God, you know, God's timing is, is we know he and we can have confidence in knowing that his timing is indeed perfect. We're not but he is and his timing is perfect.

And I he was at this point in my life now, you know, Rick and I are empty nesters. And our lives have changed quite dramatically. We now have seven grandchildren. And but I'm a lot more freed up to, to work on the book, I was much more freed up to work on the book and to finish the book.

And just felt a real great joy in doing it, I really have a burden for the children who are, you know, in that age range, you know, between 1114 or so, because they're coming up in life where they have to make some serious decisions, some of them will be pregnant, or some of the boys will become, you know, they will, they will become a father, you know, sooner, and have to make a decision, you know, or at least weigh into a decision on whether or not to abort that child.

And I was hoping and praying the Lord would use this resource in mind or to help parents, because there's, of course, great, great godly Christian parents out there that are teaching their children, their value to our of life and life in the womb.

And I wanted it to be a support to them. And then to those who are not really aware of how significant we are to God, I wanted that them to find out and to hear, to hear how much their lives mean now and eternally, and that they want to, you know, just just in the hope that this could be something that would help to protect the children of the future, that they'd want to, they'd want to save their own children, that they'd want to value them and save them and protect them and love them and not abort them.

So that was what was on my heart and mind when I wrote it, to just create a resource that would really point them to life. And then another aspect of this, too, is that in the story, we're talking about a sibling who, she finds out that her, you know, she's got a sibling, and then the sibling is aborted, and she travels through time to try to, God gives her an opportunity to travel through time to try to stop that abortion.

And one thing that was really on my heart, too, is that we never really hear that much about the brothers and the sisters that find out that the parents aborted their sibling. And that's got to have some kind of psychological impact on their lives.

They may not even realize to what extent it affects them. But so I kind of touch on that in the book a lot, because it's so wrapped up in the story. And I just think they're kind of the forgotten, also, that this kind of thing doesn't just impact, you know, your sin has ripples, and it touches their lives as well.

And so I like, I like the fact that they're, you know, the story helps to center on them some and center on the loss that they really, they really do experience, whether they express it or not, there's loss for them as well.

So I wanted that aspect, of course, tied into the story. And of course, it is. And that's kind of what was behind my thinking and creating this resource.

Right. And it's available at amazon .com, correctly, currently on.

Currently on Kindle. Yeah.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own regarding abortion or in, in particular, regarding Cindy Martin Morgan's novella, Rescue Me, which is a pro-life novella, please shoot us an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. And please include your first name, at least your city, your state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the USA. Of course, we recognize because of a sensitive issue like abortion, there may be a reason why you would prefer to remain anonymous.

If you email us a question, perhaps you've had an abortion, perhaps someone in your family has either had one or is contemplating having one, or there's some other reason that you would feel much more comfortable remaining anonymous, you may feel free to do so.

But please only remain completely anonymous if that is the case. There's something private and personal and sensitive that you do not want to publicly connect yourself to. Once again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages with Cindy Martin Morgan and a discussion of her book, Rescue Me, a pro-life novella. Don't go away.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either. We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled Resting in Grace.

You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org, that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Charles Hedden Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God-centered, Christ-exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid-ground-books .com. That's solid-ground-books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thriving Financial is not your typical financial services provider. As a membership organization, we help Christians be wise with money and live generously every day. And for the fourth year in a row, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the Ethisphere Institute, a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation, advancement, and sharing of best practices in business ethics.

Contact me, Mike Gallagher, Financial Consultant, at 717 -254 -6433. Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the Thriving Difference.

Lending faith, finances, and generosity. That's the Thriving Story.

Welcome back. This is Chris Orens and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron. For the last half hour, we have been interviewing Cindy Martin Morgan, the daughter of Walter Martin, the world-renowned apologist who went home to be to glory with Christ for eternity back in the late 80s.

And Cindy has written a novella that is now available on Kindle. It's a pro-life novella called Rescue Me. And we are currently addressing not only the novella, but we are addressing the pro-life matter in general.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com. Chrisorensen at gmail .com. We do have an anonymous listener from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, most Christians I know, especially those who are conservative evangelicals and Roman Catholics, will be quick to tell everyone that abortion is murder.

But why is it that so very few of them will actually treat the issue in practical terms on the same par as the murder of a child who has already been born? It seems to be puzzling to me that people would be more than happy to have a dinner guest in their home who may believe in abortion and may have polite discussions with them and be very friendly and loving and even humorous with them in times of relaxing gatherings, but they would never do so with a neighbor of theirs who was a known murderer of children or adults.

Why does this paradox exist? Well, that's an interesting question. Do you care to comment on that, Cindy?

Well, you know, I think that, first of all, I think there are a lot of, you know, we're not the Holy Spirit agrees. I think the question was that the purpose...

Yes, the listener was wondering why does there seem to be a dichotomy or a contradiction in the way that pro-lifers will treat, let's say, a feminist, a neighbor of theirs or a family member who believes in abortion and somebody, you know, like, let's say, Jeffrey Dahmer or somebody who's a known murderer, they're not going to be treated in the same level of charity, friendship, hospitality as they would the neighbor or family member who may have had abortions and is very still actively promoting the legal right to have them.

Right. Well, there's a misunderstanding of evil, and there is some contradiction. I realize there is some contradiction there, and I really think, and I've seen it, too, where, you know, people who don't understand what they've been forgiven from, if you're a believer in Jesus Christ and you've been saved and forgiven of your sins, you recognize, you know, what God did for you on the cross and your wretchedness, and we are just as wretched as Jeffrey Dahmer.

We are just as wretched as each other. No one is better than each other. We're all in the same miserable condition before Jesus Christ saved us. Now, obviously, certain sins have different consequences, but the state of man, fallen man, is evil, and you're not any less evil than your neighbor before Christ saves you and the depravity of man.

That's, to me, there's a misunderstanding about that that exists amongst people, and they can categorize, you know, you'll sometimes hear people on the news, oh, that person is just so evil, and what they don't recognize is that apart from Jesus Christ, we can do nothing good, and it's only his death on the cross and his sacrifice, you know, when we come to the cross and we lay that sin down, you know, that's when we are washed clean, and that our sin really is, our righteousness is really, like I said before, like the scripture says, as filthy rags, but we tend to look at it from a human perspective, and that, of course,.

Is wrong. Right, and I think that another reason why we who are pro-life may treat the feminist neighbor or family member in a hospitable and loving and caring and welcoming way into our home or in discussions and gatherings and so on, where we would not a known murderer, escaped convict or something, or paroled convict or whatever the case may be, is the fact that the world, in spite of the fact that we who are pro-life people, in spite of the fact that we find it hard to believe that they don't recognize this as murder, the evil one has done a very good job at convincing and brainwashing great multitudes on this planet that it isn't, especially because you have medical professionals telling them that it isn't, and actually performing the dastardly deeds.

Now, I'm not saying that that makes it any less of a horrific deed or act, but I think that we do have to treat people somewhat differently who are deceived about the level of evil that is actually being committed.

I can remember back in the 80s, the woman that actually led me to Christ, she had a friend who was a crack addict, a recovering crack addict, who was pregnant. She didn't even know who the father was.

She was told by her doctor, she was recommended, strongly urged by her doctor to have an abortion because he was convinced that because of her crack use, the baby would have some kind of serious deformity or brain disorder or something very devastating was probably going to be the case with the child.

So she was seriously considering this. My friend who led me to Christ, she shared with her a book of photographs of all the stages of human life from conception to the ninth month of pregnancy through delivery.

And I think it might have even been a secular book that was published by a liberal publisher because it's interesting how for the purposes of advancement in photography and science, a liberal might even find something like that fascinating and promote a book like that.

But once you actually consistently and logically follow through and say, well, wait a minute, doesn't that mean that these are human beings and that if you believe in abortion, that's murder? They just totally reverse their opinion on it.

And I've even seen ABC television have specials on the development of human life in the womb, which is just ironic because they are so openly pro-abortion in many of their other broadcasts. But my point is that this woman, this struggling, recovering crack addict, when she saw this book, she was astonished and horrified that she was actually contemplating murdering this life inside of her.

She kept the baby and the baby was born completely healthy. So that was just my answer to also to join in with you to the listener, that there are people who are just totally deceived about what is occurring.

And the story you told, that's not uncommon, those kind of stories, too. A lot of times the doctors will tell them one thing and... Oh yeah, there was a couple who were members.

Of my church years ago, back in the 80s again, and they were told by the doctors that their first baby before it was born, they actually said, the doctor specifically was very detailed on this, he said the baby was going to be a dwarf, blind and mentally retarded hermaphrodite.

Excuse me for mispronouncing that, hermaphrodite. And he urged them to abort the child, and they refused to. They said that we believe in the sanctity of human life from conception, that we believe that would be murder, we refuse.

The baby was born completely normal and healthy. But anyway... That's amazing. Have you ever, other than I heard with my own ears, a listener call into the Hank Hanegraaff interview... Bible Answer Man program.

Bible Answer Man program, yes. I heard a woman call in who had had an abortion and her heart was broken over that. I don't know how often you've had that experience, but that was a very moving phone call that Hank received that you addressed.

I don't know if that's happened before. I have talked to others, yes. And this one, you know, they're told, they're lied to and harmed them in any way, and that's just that caller, really. And then you can go on to help others.

And, you know, I read this, one of my dear, dear cousins recently shared an article with me, actually a blog, the article she'd written in this blog was, I am the woman at the well. And it's a woman who had had an abortion.

And, you know, and that's what, that's what can happen for these women. They're shamed and washed clean by, and they can walk away from that sin and leave it like a garment they just took off that Jesus, you know.

You know, I'm going to be talking with Steve Camp.

In the second hour, specifically, one of the facets of the interview is going to be a Christian's role in politics. And there, there is a lot of disagreements among Christians, not even differences between those on the Christian right and those on the so-called Christian left.

But I'm talking about even amongst very conservative, Bible-believing Christians who are strong advocates of biblical inerrancy, and maybe even also strongly theologically reformed and Calvinistic, and maybe even sitting in the same pew at church, who disagree on how a Christian is to appropriately function in the public arena, in the realm of politics.

And abortion is a sin and a crime in and outside of politics, of course. But what is your personal view on the activism of Christians, most Christians that I have heard, in fact, probably all of them.

Uh, there are probably some Mennonites or others that I have not conversed with who believe that a Christian shouldn't have any voice in politics. But most Christians that I know would say individual Christians can be involved in politics in any way they are led to, even running for political office.

But they would say that the church as an institution is solely there as a function to proclaim the gospel, to disciple Christians and edify them and equip them and minister as agents of mercy to those who are suffering and in pain and so on.

But they are not to be there to support political candidates and do other things that individuals can do. What is your view on that, being somebody.

Who is a pro-life advocate? Well, my view is that by and large, by not strongly advocating, that's really a grief that we feel, that the body of Christ is supposed to be salt and light. Everywhere we go, not being salt and light, thinking that somehow they don't have to be salt and light when it comes to that person who is going to have their life ended any second.

Mind-blowing that you have Jesus as you have done it unto the least of these, you have done it unto me. So the indifference is to Jesus himself. It's huge. Just like, you know, it's important and there's many, many issues facing the church and many, many issues in life that we have to deal with, and this is one really important issue.

And I feel that a lot of churches, not all, because there are some great churches that are in this battle, and praise God for them, but so many churches obviously are not. And it's a tragedy. Yes, and when I was speaking about the.

Strange dichotomy that exists, or even the hypocrisy that exists amongst those who are pro-abortion, it's amazing how people will be very quick to want to see a young girl brought to justice, swift justice, if she has given birth to a baby and thrown it in a trash can.

And how those same people will give her a badge of courage, strength, and honor if she chooses to get an abortion and have a doctor rip the baby to pieces. It's a tremendous blindness. Yeah, it's just, it's amazing that somebody could have both views.

Well, God says, you know,.

If you don't repent of your sins, he can harden you in your sin. And that's what we're seeing, you know, that's the judgment of God. Yeah, because, I mean, and some of these.

Babies who are being murdered in sterile doctor's offices are being brutally murdered at the same ages of development, same stages of development, as those babies that are being born perhaps prematurely and thrown into a dumpster.