Jan. 25, 2016 Show with Cindee Martin Morgan on “RESCUE ME”: A Pro-Life Novel & Steve Camp on “CHRISTIANS & POLITICS: Living Out TITUS 3:1-8 in Perilous Times”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet earth listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 11th day of January 2015.

I'm sorry, 11th day. I'm a couple of weeks behind, aren't I? A 25th day of January 2015.

I think this being buried up to my eyeballs in snow for the past few days has made me have some kind of brain malfunction.

That's okay, and it would be 2016, Chris. 2016.

January 25th, 2016. And in spite of our jovial atmosphere right now, we're talking about a couple of very serious issues today.

We are going to be, first of all, for the first hour discussing abortion.

And in particular, we're going to be discussing our guest's novel or novella,

Rescue Me, which is a pro -life novel. And our guest to discuss that for the first hour is

Cindy Martin Morgan, who is the daughter of the late Walter Martin, who is a world -renowned apologist and author, most probably well -known for The Kingdom of the

Cults and also his many appearances on the John Ankerberg broadcast back in the 80s and 90s.

And we also have, for our second guest, Steve Camp, who is no stranger to the

Iron Sharpens Iron audience, especially the old Iron Sharpens Iron that ran from 2006 through 2011.

Steve Camp is an award -winning Christian recording artist who actually won a

Grammy Award for a song that he wrote. And he is now currently the pastor of Cross Church in Palm Harbor, Florida.

And he is going to be discussing Christians and politics living out

Titus 3, 1 through 8 in perilous times, which I hope that you will all listen to in our second hour.

But first of all, let me first welcome our first guest to the broadcast, Cindy Martin Morgan.

Hi, Chris. It's an honor to be here. Thanks for having me. And it's my pleasure to have you here,

Cindy. And you were a delight to interview the last time, and I'm sure that we will have the same experience this time.

And I'm so glad that you could make the time to be on the broadcast. First of all, before we even go into the discussion of your new novella, your pro -life novella,

Rescue Me, tell us something about Walter Martin Jude 3, which is an internet ministry that you operate with your husband.

Walter Martin Jude 3 really was established to support the ministry of the

Christian Research Institute, CRI, the ministry that my dad founded over 50 years ago.

So we are so blessed by this ministry and so thankful for this ministry still that God raised up through my father.

Rick is on staff there. He's the webmaster there at CRI. And we just have such joy in being a part of all the work that God is doing there.

And so our site is to support that ministry and to do pro -life work, to share my pro -life music, and now this new novella that God has put on my heart.

Great. And the website for that ministry that you run with your husband?

That's www .WalterMartinJude3 .com. WalterMartinJude3 .com.

And it's the number three. Yes. WalterMartinJude3 .com, right. Walter Martin. Okay, great.

And for anyone who is unfamiliar with Walter Martin, it's unlikely that there are too many listeners to Iron, Sharp, and Ziron who are totally unfamiliar with Walter Martin.

But those of my listeners who are very young, I do have listeners in their teens and their 20s and 30s that may not remember

Walter Martin. But how long ago did your dad go home to Glory with Christ? 1989.

It was June of 1989. Oh, okay. So then those John Ankerberg programs were all in the 80s then.

Yeah, quite some time ago God took him. Yeah, that was, time certainly does fly because I could still remember being glued to my television set in the living room watching

John Ankerberg and watching your father debate all different cult representatives and Mitch Pacwa, the

Jesuit priest, those were always the most entertaining of the debates.

Yeah. Because in spite of the very stark contrast in theology that often rose to the surface between your dad's debates with Father Mitch Pacwa, they were good friends.

So there was no animosity or bitterness or hatred that developed because of this.

This was merely two men trying to bring the truth to light from their own perspective.

Obviously, I believe your dad was the one that was on the side of truth in regard to the gospel and all those matters that divide

Rome from biblical Christianity. But obviously, your dad is sorely missed, but heaven is a richer place waiting for us all.

How young was he when he went home to glory again? He was 60. Wow, that is a lot younger than I thought.

I remember being surprised the last time I interviewed you how young he was.

That's only about six years older than me. Amazing. Yeah, it is.

Well, we all have a wonderful legacy that he left behind to be blessed from, and again, the masterpiece that he wrote that he's most well known for is

Kingdom of the Cults. What else would he have written that our listeners should get a hold of? Well, Essential Christianity is one of his books that we have heard a lot lately.

People have been going back to even the younger people, you know, 30 -ish, 20s.

So that has that has been becoming a real staple, too, for some people.

That's the one we've heard of as well more. But primarily, of course, the Kingdom of the Cults is, I think, the greatest resource that he ever penned.

And then next to that, we've heard, like I said, a lot about Essential Christianity, so that's a good resource still, too.

And we did bring up in our last interview that you and your husband were on the opposite end of the

Calvinist -Arminian debate with your dad. You and your husband are thoroughly Reformed in your theology, and your dad was not, although we both agree that he is now.

Yes, he knows the truth. God bless him. But tell us, before we even go into the details,

I mean, obviously, we can't give away too many details of your novella or your novel because, you know, people don't want to have the ending or any kind of major part of it that would be better kept a surprise.

They don't want to have that spoiled before they read it. But tell us, first of all, when the pro -life movement became, or the issue of life before birth and the abortion issue, when all these things became a matter of intense importance to you and a matter that would become something that you would passionately be involved in in your life as a

Christian woman. Sure. I was against abortion since I was old enough to become aware of it, but I really wasn't heartbroken over abortion.

I thought, well, that's wrong and all of that, but I feel like in my, probably,

I think it was like my late 20s or mid -late 20s, where the Lord, he was just moving in my heart, where he brought a friend into my life at that time who was so passionate.

Her love for the unborn, she was politically trying to fight for them and lawfully, and she really touched me and blessed me with that love and that concern for them.

And God really used it in my heart and in my life to awaken me, you might say, to his heartache and the horror that these people were really facing every single day.

And I just, it was weird because like for the first, there were like weeks that went by where I felt just tremendous grief.

And I've said this many times, but it's really true. I almost feel like God let me just glimpse, just a brief glimpse of his pain and his heart, you know, that they're destroying his little ones.

And I had this sense, you know, for weeks that God wanted me to do something, but I didn't know what. And then one day,

I just really felt the Lord pressing, I really felt the Holy Spirit just moving me to, you know, write down a song.

I wrote Fear, Flame, Wonder, Flame, Aid at that time, and I literally sat down and I just wrote it within, you know, five or ten minutes.

It just, and I cried as I wrote it. And I just felt that brokenness inside of, you know, oh my goodness, you know, these people are being ripped from their mother's wombs.

And this is just an atrocity. And just the grief just flooded my soul.

And that's when everything began to me, I think, where God, you know, once God awakens you,

I think, to that horror, you can never turn back. And that's how I wrote, that's when

I wrote Fear, Flame, Wonder, Flame, Aid. Yeah, it's amazing how successful the left has been and the feminist movement and the pro -abortionist movement, how successful they have been in keeping the populace totally ignorant of the brutality of abortion.

There are obviously people, abortionists themselves, would be the first among them who know full well what's happening during this grotesque and horrific and barbarous procedure.

But it's amazing when you hear of people, you know, you don't know if they're 100%, you don't know if they're lying, but you,

I've seen people even in the media who are taken aback and are insistent that it can't be as horrific,

I should say, and as barbarous as it's being described. One account that immediately comes to mind was

I can still remember when Ron Paul, the father of the current senator from Kentucky who is running in the

Republican primary, at least I think he still might be running, Rand Paul, well his dad

Ron Paul was a guest on The View and I remember

Joy, whose last name escapes me, but she's a very left -wing stand -up comedian who was one of the hosts,

Joy Behar, she was always there to mock and ridicule anything that was conservative and she refused to acknowledge some of the things that Ron Paul was saying, like when he was describing partial birth abortion, she was acting as if it was the first time she'd ever heard of this, and she said, oh well that would be murder, but you know, that doesn't really happen too often, you know, that kind of a thing, and I wonder if she immediately wish she could retract those words when she described it as murder, but those kinds of things, that kind of butchery it's all butchery, but even the more disturbing case of it, where there's actually a partially born infant being mutilated while it's still alive, that seems to be harder for people on the left to recognize or admit that they actually, those procedures actually occur.

Very true, and you know, a lot of people are making so much money off of this, it's so profitable, and as we heard recently too, the selling of the baby's body parts, and I read an article about a woman who was doing, excuse me, one of these abortions, and she was, the woman was on the table, and she was about as pregnant as the woman that she was doing the ultrasound for, and right at the time that she was ready to rip one of these limbs off, this little child inside the womb, her baby kicked for the first time.

Wow. Yeah, so the sadness of all of this is we live in a day and age where everybody knows what's going on, and they have an agenda, obviously, to keep people, you know, thinking that this is a matter of choice, not a matter of life and death, that we should be paying attention to, because there's just the people that are, you know, involved in all of this, they just are making a fortune, and they're exploiting mothers, and they're just, it's just so sad, but really, you know, you follow the money.

These people, they want to profit, and they don't want to give up the kind of money that this has given them, so the kind of income it's afforded them, sadly.

Yeah, and I remember not long ago seeing another clip, a more recent clip of the women on The View, mocking the statement that Planned Parenthood was involved in the harvesting of baby parts, and saying that that is not what they were doing.

What else could you describe that to be? I mean, is there any other description you could possibly give that?

Well, you know, Satan doesn't have any new tricks. He always wants to redefine the truth and dumb us down, and that's what they're trying to do.

They're trying to dumb down our nation, and just like the New York Times recently publishing an article about the

March for Life in Washington, D .C. that just took place, they said hundreds attended. Well, it was like about 700 ,000 people that attended.

700 ,000. So nearly a million people. You know, just a little bit different of a number, you know, just detracting from the truth, redefining the truth, and it's one of Satan's oldest tricks.

He wants to redefine and cover the truth, and he'd distort the truth. You know, Satan likes to mix lies with truth, you know, so the truth was, yes, it was in Washington, D .C.

Yes, it was a March for Life, you know, but he wants to distort the rest of it, and he's just a master at that, and that's what we're seeing in our country is just that satanic influence on our nation.

Yeah, and the media is, has a purposeful design to give the impression that this is mainly white middle -class

Americans who are protesting the infanticide that is taking place through abortion, and I know black

Christian activists who are involved in the pro -life movement who have told me that they will be at pro -life fundraising banquets and things, and when the news media is there, the cameramen purposely, as they're spanning across the audience, they will stop filming when they come to the black tables or the tables that are dominated by black guests.

They will move away and then start filming again to the white audience, and of course, the

NAACP refuses to acknowledge this infanticide, and they refuse to give a platform to those

African Americans who are vehemently opposed to the butchering of unborn children, and which actually began as a way to exterminate the black race from the face of the earth.

That's just, it's so clearly documented. This is not some bizarre conspiracy theory.

No, it's the truth. Yeah, and in fact, you could even go to Margaret Sanger's writings on the internet, and I'm even talking about internet sites that aren't biased against her, and you could just see in her own words the fact that she wanted to use sterilization and abortion to basically rid the human race of the black population, and it was almost looked upon as a mercy killing because they are too mentally incapable of taking care of themselves and so on, according to Margaret Sanger and her racist colleagues that still exist to this day.

Outrageous. Yeah, it's a deplorable thing. In fact, I strongly recommend anybody listening to get a hold of a

DVD. It's one of the best pro -life DVDs I've ever viewed. It's called

MAFA 21, M as in Michael, AA, F as in Frank, A21. It is a

DVD that thoroughly documents the history of Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry and exposes the racist agenda that was behind it all, and the cooperation that Margaret Sanger and the eugenics those who were involved in the eugenics movement here in the

United States in the early 20th century, how they cooperated with the Nazis in Germany prior to America being involved in World War II, and it's just amazing.

Margaret Sanger actually had Nazi scientists writing for her magazine and so on, but it's just an amazing thing that we in a quote -unquote civilized, enlightened society can sit back as the millions of babies are ripped apart and no one is really making any progress in having this butchery outlawed, it seems.

But anyway, you went from having a passion to defend the life of the unborn to wanting to write about it.

There may be other novels or novellas written on the subject of abortion.

Yours is the first that has ever come to my attention. I don't know if you're aware of any other, but what made you decide to use a novel or novella as a vehicle to convey the story of abortion to your readers?

Well, it's interesting because the idea for the book, I actually thought of some of the storyline in my 20s, early 30s.

Raising four daughters and homeschooling and life being as it was,

I wrote a Metapoly song, too, and we tried to focus on those songs and, of course, raising our children and everything.

There wasn't the time to develop the book like I wanted to. In the late 90s,

I actually wrote the first few chapters of the book, or the first couple chapters of the book. But God's timing is essential to our lives.

We know He prepares our works ahead of time so that we will walk in them and we can have confidence in knowing that His timing is indeed perfect.

We're not, but He is and His timing is perfect. At this point in my life now,

Rick and I are empty nesters and our lives have changed quite dramatically. We now have seven grandchildren.

But I'm a lot more freed up to work on the book. I was much more freed up to work on the book and to finish the book and just felt a real great joy in doing it.

I really have a burden for the children who are in that age range, between 11 and 14 or so, because they're coming up in life where they have to make some serious decisions.

Some of them will be pregnant, or some of the boys will become a father sooner and have to make a decision, or at least weigh into a decision on whether or not to abort that child.

I was hoping and praying the Lord would use this resource to reach their hearts and minds or to help parents, because there's, of course, great and great godly

Christian parents out there that are teaching their children their value to our Creator and the importance of life and life in the womb.

I wanted it to be a support to them and then to those who are not really aware of how significant we are to God.

I wanted them to find out and to hear how much their lives mean now and eternally.

Just in the hope that this could be something that would help to protect the children of the future, that they'd want to save their own children, that they'd want to value them and save them and protect them and love them and not abort them.

That was what was on my heart and mind when I wrote it, to just create a resource that would really point them to life.

Then another aspect of this, too, is that in the story we're talking about a sibling who finds out that she's got a sibling and then the sibling is aborted and she travels through time to try to...

God gives her an opportunity to travel through time to try to stop that abortion. One thing that was really on my heart, too, is that we never really hear that much about the brothers and the sisters that find out that the parents aborted their sibling.

That's got to have some kind of psychological impact on their lives. They may not even realize to what extent it affects them.

I kind of touch on that in the book a lot because it's so wrapped up in the story.

I just think they're kind of forgotten, also, that this kind of thing doesn't just impact.

Your sin has ripples and it touches their lives as well. I like the fact that the story helps to center on them some and center on the loss that they really do experience.

Whether they express it or not, there's loss for them as well. I wanted that aspect, of course, tied into the story and, of course, it is.

That's kind of what was behind my thinking in creating this resource. Great. It's available at amazon .com

currently? Currently on Kindle, yes. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own regarding abortion or, in particular, regarding Cindy Martin Morgan's novella

Rescue Me, which is a pro -life novella, please shoot us an email at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please include your first name, at least, your city, your state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Of course, we recognize because of a sensitive issue like abortion, there may be a reason why you would prefer to remain anonymous.

If you email us a question, perhaps you've had an abortion, perhaps someone in your family has either had one or is contemplating having one, or there's some other reason that you would feel much more comfortable remaining anonymous, you may feel free to do so, but please only remain completely anonymous if is the case.

There's something private and personal and sensitive that you do not want to publicly connect yourself to.

Once again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Don't go away, we're going to be right back after these messages with Cindy Martin Morgan and a discussion of her book

Rescue Me, a pro -life novella. Don't go away.

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That's the Thriving Story. Welcome back.

This is Chris Orens and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron. For the last half hour, we have been interviewing Cindy Martin Morgan, the daughter of Walter Martin, the world -renowned apologist who went home to glory, to glory with Christ for eternity back in the late 80s.

And Cindy has written a novella that is now available on Kindle.

It's a pro -life novella called Rescue Me. And we are currently addressing not only the novella, but we are addressing the pro -life matter in general.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com.

We do have an anonymous listener from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, most

Christians I know, especially those who are conservative evangelicals and Roman Catholics, will be quick to tell everyone that abortion is murder.

But why is it that so very few of them will actually treat the issue in practical terms on the same par as the murder of a child who has already been born?

It seems to be puzzling to me that people would be more than happy to have a dinner guest in their home who may believe in abortion and may have polite discussions with them and be very friendly and loving and even humorous with them in times of relaxing gatherings, but they would never do so with a neighbor of theirs who was a known murderer of children or adults.

Why does this paradox exist? Well, that's an interesting question. Do you care to comment on that,

Cindy? Well, you know, I think that, first of all, I think there are a lot of pro -life people and Christians that are speaking the truth in love and that are being consistent with the way that they see abortion and the way that they treat people and treat the neighbor, treat the guest.

You know, we're not the Holy Spirit. We cannot change people's hearts. Only God can. And when you speak to the person in your home, you know, you speak to them in the hope that the

Holy Spirit will, you know, the person who agrees. I think the question was that the person, the guest in the home did agree with abortion.

Is that correct? Yes. The listener was wondering why does there seem to be a dichotomy or a contradiction in the way that pro -lifers will treat, let's say, a feminist, a neighbor of theirs or a family member who believes in abortion and somebody, you know, like, let's say,

Jeffrey Dahmer or somebody who's a known murderer, they're not going to be treated in the same level of charity, friendship, hospitality as they would the neighbor or family member who may have had abortions and is very still actively promoting the legal right to have them.

Right. Well, there's a misunderstanding of evil and the fact that we are all, like the scripture says, that our righteousness is like filthy rags.

And there is some contradiction. I realize there is some contradiction out there. The caller is correct.

There is some contradiction there. And I really think too, and I've seen it too, where, you know, people who don't understand what they've been forgiven from, if you're a believer in Jesus Christ and you've been saved and forgiven of your sins, you recognize, you know, what

God did for you on the cross and your wretchedness. And we are just as wretched as Jeffrey Dahmer.

We are just as wretched as each no one is better than each other. We're all in the same miserable condition before Jesus Christ saved us.

Now, obviously, certain sins have different consequences. But the state of man, fallen man, is evil.

And you're not any less evil than your neighbor before Christ saves you. And the depravity of man, that's, to me, there's a misunderstanding about that that exists amongst people.

And they can categorize, you know, you'll sometimes hear people on the news, oh, that person is just so evil. And what they don't recognize is that, apart from Jesus Christ, we can do nothing good.

And it's only His death on the cross and His sacrifice, you know, when we come to the cross and we lay that sin down, you know, that's when we are washed clean.

And that our sin really is, our righteousness is really, like I said before, like the

Scripture says, as filthy rags. But we tend to look at it from a human perspective.

And that, of course, is wrong. Right. And I think that another reason why we who are pro -life may treat the feminist neighbor or family member in a hospitable and loving and caring and welcoming way into our home or in discussions and gatherings and so on, where we would not a known murderer, escaped convict or something or paroled convict or whatever the case may be, is the fact that the world, in spite of the fact that we who are pro -life people, in spite of the fact that we find it hard to believe that they don't recognize this as murder, the evil one has done a very good job at convincing and brainwashing great multitudes on this planet that it isn't, especially because you have medical professionals telling them that it isn't and actually performing the dastardly deeds.

Now, I'm not saying that makes it any less of a horrific deed or act, but I think that we do have to treat people somewhat differently who are deceived about the level of evil that is actually being committed.

I can remember back in the 80s, the woman that actually led me to Christ she had a friend who was a crack addict, a recovering crack addict, who was pregnant.

She didn't even know who the father was. She was told by her doctor, she was recommended, strongly urged by her doctor to have an abortion because he was convinced that because of her crack use the baby would have some kind of serious deformity or brain disorder or something very devastating was probably going to be the case with the child.

So she was seriously considering this. My friend who led me to Christ, she shared with her a book of photographs of all the stages of human life from conception to the ninth month of pregnancy through delivery.

And I think it might have even been a secular book that was published by a liberal publisher because it's interesting how for the purposes of advancement in photography and science, a liberal might even find something like that fascinating and promote a book like that.

But once you actually consistently and logically follow through and say, well wait a minute, doesn't that mean that these are human beings and that if you believe in abortion that's murder?

They just totally reverse their opinion on it. I've even seen

ABC television have specials on the development of human life in the womb, which is just ironic because they are so openly pro abortion in many of their other broadcasts.

But my point is that this woman, this struggling recovering crack addict, when she saw this book she was astonished and horrified that she was actually contemplating murdering this life inside of her.

She kept the baby and the baby was born completely healthy. So that was just my answer to also to join in with you on to the listener that there are people who are just totally deceived about what is occurring.

And the story you told, that's not uncommon those kind of stories too. A lot of times the doctors will tell them one thing and they'll see another later like that, like you're describing.

Oh yeah, there was a couple who were members of my church years ago, back in the 80s again, and they were told by the doctors that their first baby before it was born, they actually said, the doctor specifically was very detailed on this, he said the baby was going to be a dwarf, blind and mentally retarded hermaphrodite.

And he urged them to abort the child. And they refused to, they said that we believe in the sanctity of human life from conception, that we believe that would be murder, we refuse.

The baby was born completely normal and healthy. That's amazing. But anyway, have you ever, other than I heard with my own ears, a listener call into the

Hank Hanegraaff interview. Bible Answer Man program. Bible Answer Man program, yes.

I heard a woman call in who had had an abortion and her heart was broken over that.

I don't know how often you've had that experience, but that was a very moving phone call that Hank received that you addressed.

I don't know if that's happened before. I have talked to others, yes. And this one, it was deeply, deeply moving.

And the woman was obviously very broken over the fact that she had had an abortion. And it was just an honor to be able to try to comfort her, you know, somehow.

And I hope I was a comfort to her. I just, my heart really goes out to these women who do this because it really tears at their heart, it tears at their life, and it leaves them with scars.

And, you know, they're told, they're lied to and told that, you know, the abortion is not going to harm them in any way, and that's just not true.

And as that caller really demonstrated, you know, her pain and her anguish over what had happened.

And at the same time, you know, it's so wonderful to be able to say to somebody, you know what, you can lay that down to the foot of the cross, and Jesus can forgive that, if you can be forgiven, and then you can go on to help others.

And, you know, I read this, one of my dear, dear cousins recently shared an article with me, actually a blog, the blog was called, the article she'd written in this blog was,

I am the woman at the well. And it's a woman who had had an abortion. And, you know, now

God is using her to be a voice for the unborn. And that's what, that's what can happen for these women, that, you know, they can be freed from their guilt and freed from their shame and washed clean by the blood of the

Lamb, Jesus Christ. And they can walk away from that sin and leave it like a garment they just took off and, and left in the road and know that Jesus, Jesus has it covered.

And they can go on to, you know, save other children from from this horrific dungeon of death that we're seeing before us.

And I just think that God can use them in such a great way, if they could be told that they're loved and that Jesus, you know, can forgive them and that they can be okay again.

You know, I'm going to be talking with Steve Camp in the second hour, specifically, one of the facets of the interview is going to be a

Christian's role in politics. And there, there is a lot of disagreements among Christians, not even differences between those on the

Christian right and those on the so -called Christian left. But I'm talking about even amongst very conservative

Bible -believing Christians, who are strong advocates of biblical inerrancy, and maybe even also strongly theologically reformed and Calvinistic, and maybe even sitting in the same pew at church, who disagree on how a

Christian is to appropriately function in the public arena in the realm of politics.

And abortion is a sin and a crime in and outside of politics, of course.

But what is your personal view on the activism of Christians, most

Christians that I have heard, in fact, probably all of them, there are probably some

Mennonites or others that I have not conversed with who believe that a Christian shouldn't have any voice in politics.

But most Christians that I know would say, individual Christians can be involved in politics in any way they are led to, even running for political office.

But they would say that the church as an institution is solely there as a function to proclaim the gospel, to disciple

Christians and edify them and equip them and minister as agents of mercy to those who are suffering and in pain and so on.

But they are not to be there to support political candidates and do other things that individuals can do.

What is your view on that, being somebody who is a pro -life advocate? Well, my view is that, by and large, the church has failed the unborn by not strongly advocating for their lives and fighting for their lives lawfully.

And that's really a grief that we feel, that the body of Christ is supposed to be salt and light.

Everywhere we go, in every area of life, every area. And the church not being salt and light, thinking that somehow they don't have to be salt and light when it comes to that person who is going to have their life ended any second.

I mean, it's just, it's absolutely mind -blowing that you have churches that just don't make this a priority.

And it's tragic. And Jesus says, you have done it unto the least of these. You have done it unto me.

So the indifference is to Jesus himself. Because this issue is huge.

Just like, you know, it's important and there's many, many issues facing the church and many, many issues in life that we have to deal with.

And this is one really important issue. And I feel that a lot of churches, not all, because there's some great churches that are really, they're really running the race.

They're really in the front lines of this battle. And praise God for them. But so many churches, obviously, are not.

And it's a tragedy. Yes. And when I was speaking about the strange dichotomy that exists, or even the hypocrisy that exists amongst those who are pro -abortion, it's amazing how people will be very quick to want to see a young girl brought to justice, swift justice, if she has given birth to a baby and thrown it in a trash can.

And how those same people will give her a badge of courage, strength, and honor if she chooses to get an abortion and have a doctor rip the baby to pieces.

It's a tremendous blindness. Yeah. It's just, it's amazing that somebody could have both views.

Well, God says, you know, if you don't repent of your sins, He can harden you in your sin.

And that's what we're seeing. You know, that's the judgment of God, because they are so hardened in their sin.

They will not turn from it. And I think that that's the end result. Yeah, because,

I mean, some of these babies who are being murdered in sterile doctor's offices are being brutally murdered at the same ages of development, same stages of development, as those babies that are being born, perhaps prematurely and thrown into a dumpster.

These are viable, as they call them, viable fetuses being murdered.

Yeah. So it's just a horrific situation. And it's very hard for some of us to restrain our emotions and anger when we even talk about these issues.

It is. And I think that people, I think the biggest thing that you have to do is you have to speak the truth to people in love and let

God take it where He's going to take it and be encouraged in knowing that God is in control. Otherwise, you would just implode, you know, with grief over this and the horror of it.

But God is in control, and we can trust Him and know that He's working, even when things look like they do right now.

Yeah. In fact, even going back to the listener earlier, the anonymous listener who was bringing up the contradiction between a

Christian having a feminist who is pro -abortion, perhaps over the house for Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas dinner, but you would never do so with somebody who was a known murderer.

Why is that the case? Well, first of all, as you said, we have to be salt and light to the world.

We also have to show the love of Christ to the lost. And somebody who's deceived about the evil of abortion needs to be convinced of the truth.

They also need to be convinced of their own lost condition. And they have to be given the gospel in a way that is a demonstration that Christ has saved the worst of sinners, including us.

But if I had the opportunity to sit down with a doctor who was performing abortions,

I would not be sitting around having a... I can't imagine myself having a warm, comfortable, and pleasant chat over dinner that had joy and hilarity involved in it and some kind of a celebration during the holidays.

I would have a completely different mindset, I would think. I've never had the situation where this has occurred to my knowledge, where I've had a doctor in my presence over a meal.

But I can imagine that I would want to think that I would be very stern to this person in a different way, because this person knows what they're doing.

I don't think that there's any way a doctor, a physician, cannot know that they are murdering a child.

Well, I was in that position with a doctor in my 20s, and he was my

OB, you know, GYN. And I remember being in there one day, and I was very pregnant, you know, eight months pregnant.

And I remember finding out during that office visit that he did abortions. So he was delivering babies during abortions and back and forth, back and forth.

And I found that out that day. And I remember him walking in the room, and I was just stunned.

And I looked at him, and I said, you know, something like, you know, you're doing abortions, you're taking the life of a child, you know, why are you doing that?

And he looked at me, and he said, well, you know, I'm, you know, thank you for sharing that and everything.

I just, I do do this. But, you know, I appreciate, you know, your, I appreciate you asking me about it.

And he looked, you know, the look on his face, and I didn't, I didn't cut into him. I just, I was just,

I was just so stunned. And I did speak the truth of love to him. And by the look on his face,

I could just see that God was with us. I could just see in that moment that his heart was pierced just for a moment of what he was doing.

And he didn't, he wasn't combative verbally. He just, he just kind of, I could just see that something was going on, you know, in his mind there for a moment.

And, and I don't know where that man is today. And I don't know what God ever did in his life. But that's just the thing, you know, we're not the

Holy Spirit. We just have to speak the truth and love, and God gives us opportunity to do it. And, you know,

I was thankful for the opportunity to confront him. Amen. And I don't want to be mistaken.

I don't want anybody to get the wrong idea that I would not present the gospel. I would present the gospel to an abortionist, a doctor who was performing these things or a nurse who knew full well what was happening.

But I would, I can't imagine that I would have the warmth and hospitality and neighborly affection in my home or other setting with somebody like that, as opposed to somebody who's just totally blind to what this issue was really involving.

Well, right. And this was my doctor. I was eight months pregnant. So, you know, that was very profound to be standing there,

I think, and looking at me like that, a different story. And God gives you the words when you need him and the spirit to do it.

And, you know, and I know you, Chris, and I'm sure you wouldn't present anything without it being in love.

And just to let you know that for those of our listeners who think that witnessing to somebody who is staunchly feminist and pro -abortion and pro -homosexual and all these things, very often we forget that we were sinners saved by grace, and we treat certain people like hopeless causes.

They're never going to believe. I'm not even going to bother presenting the gospel to them. You know, we have this mindset of really pride and arrogance about ourselves.

Just to let our listeners know that on the 29th of January, which is a

Friday, I've got the honor of interviewing Rosaria Butterfield, who was a feminist and pro -abortionist and lesbian.

And the Lord brought her to salvation through the kindness and hospitality of a theologically reformed and very conservative pastor who invited her to have dinner with him and his wife in their home.

And the love and kindness and compassion that they showed him was used as an instrument of God to bring this woman to repentance and salvation.

And she is now not only a born -again Christian and a pro -life believer and a theologically conservative woman, but she's also heterosexual and married to a pastor.

So it's just amazing what God can do. And so mark your calendars for Friday, January 29th.

Oh, I know I will. Great, I appreciate that. Well, what are your final thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners regarding Rescue Me and regarding the life of the unborn, the sanctity of human life, if you will, that you want most etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before they leave this program?

Well, I would hope that they would take advantage of the fact that it's a unique and rare resource for them, grandparents, parents, to help equip their children for life.

So I would just urge them to get my book and to give it to these kids because they really, they so need more tools in their lives, you know, more spiritual, they need more spiritual guidance of this nature.

And this is kind of an entertaining book. It's entertaining, but it's very serious, of course, but it's entertaining as well.

And always time travel seems to be kind of captivating, you know, for kids. And it would just deliver the truth alongside it, and I think it would be a blessing to them.

So I would encourage them to take advantage of this ministry tool. And yeah, and a lot of people, even

Christian parents, might want to be overly protective of their children and totally shelter them from things like abortion.

But this is a bold step in that matter, because children are going to be faced with these realities through their lost childhood friends, and their lost parents, and, you know, schoolyards, schoolroom, classrooms, and so on.

Well, yes, and Planned Parenthood wants their children. And so you can't give them enough to encourage them in the

Lord in this way and to realize, help them realize their value. Because the world is telling them something else all the time, everywhere, every place, every, you know, everywhere they turn, there's that pressure from the world to do the wrong thing.

And they just, you know, it's important to give them as many positive things from Scripture, reinforcements, so that they'll,

God willing, walk in truth and rescue their own children. Never want to, never want to abort their own children.

Amen. So that's Rescue Me by Cindy Martin Morgan. And Cindy is spelled C -I -N -D -E -E, not with a

Y. And she is the author of Rescue Me on Amazon Kindle, correct?

Correct. And the website that Cindy and her husband operate is WalterMartinJude3 .com.

Is it com? Yes, correct. www .WalterMartinJude3 .com.

Well, thank you so much, Cindy Martin Morgan. You've been a joy to interview again, and I look forward to you returning again in the near future.

Oh, Chris, a blessing to be with you. All right. Well, God bless you, sister. God bless you. Bye -bye.

Bye -bye. And we're going on to our second hour now. If you'd like to join us with questions of your own for Steve Camp, many of our listeners may be fully aware of Steve Camp, who's an award -winning

Christian recording artist. He is also currently the pastor of Cross Church.

And I wrongly have been publicizing Cross Church as being in Palm Harbor, Florida, but it's actually in Palm City, Florida, so I apologize for that.

But it's Palm City, Florida, Cross Church. And we're going to be discussing after this break

Christians and politics, living out Titus 3, verses 1 through 8, in perilous times.

We're going to be discussing that with our second guest for the day, Steve Camp. So don't go away.

We're going to be right back. That's 717 -254 -6433.

Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the

Thrivant Difference. I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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That's nasbible .com. Tired of bop store Christianity?

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And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

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That's wrbc .us. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am

I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a

Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

TV program entitled, Resting in Grace. You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org,

that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in for the last hour, we had as a guest on our program

Cindy Martin Morgan, who is the daughter of Walter Martin, the world -renowned

Christian apologist who has been in eternity with Christ since the late 1980s, author of Kingdom of the

Cults, and we were discussing with Cindy her novella Rescue Me, which is a pro -life novella, and we were discussing also the pro -life movement in general.

In our second hour, we're talking about Christian and politics living out Titus 3, 1 through 8 in perilous times with our guest

Steve Camp, who is an award -winning Christian recording artist, a Grammy award -winning songwriter, and pastor of Cross Church in Palm City, Florida.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Steve Camp. Hey Chris, thank you, my friend.

Great to be with you. I'm sorry you're snowed in, I hate to break it, it's about 68 degrees here in Palm City, Florida, so we're trying to suffer along with you, but I remember those days being in Chicago growing up, and all the snow and the wind and the ice, and oh man,

I'll tell you, give me sand over snow any day, you know, but we're praying for you all.

I hope it's been at least a little bit of a respite for you. Yeah, well the next time that God gives me the opportunity to go to Florida, I hope

I actually have time to visit and fellowship with you. That'd be great.

Yeah, and hopefully we'll also coincide with winter months the next time

I'm down there. Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you for having me on the broadcast today, always a real joy.

Now tell our listeners, for those of them who either have never heard you interviewed on Iron Sharpens Iron at all, or perhaps they are very familiar with your music but not familiar at all with the church that you now pastor,

Cross Church, give us some updates on Cross Church in Palm City, Florida. Yeah, I would love to.

We are a Reformed Baptist church, you know, London Baptist confession of faith, modified.

Some of the church fathers got a few things wrong, and so it's a living document that we needed to update, but it's great.

We're dedicated to expository preaching, the ministry of the word. You know, the great thing about the

Reformed faith is that it pays a high view of God, and especially of Jesus Christ, that salvation is of the

Lord. When people ask me, what's the Reformed faith about? I say, man, it's really that all things come from the

Lord, and that He has won our redemption. He has graced us with it. By His enabling grace, we live out in sanctification and holiness to Him, and look forward to that glorious day of His second coming.

When we'll be with Him, and we'll be glorified, and have new bodies, and spend forever with the

Lord, praising and giving honor and glory to Him. So we have a high view of God's word, a high view of the

Lord and His glory, and Sundays, you know, it's all about Christ and His glory.

We use that contemporary phrase, but we really love it, that come and make much of Jesus together.

And so we do that every Lord's Day. We're in Palm City, the Cross Church, and we have guests that come, people that visit, and it's wonderful.

10 a .m. to 11 .30 a .m. Sunday morning, and then we have a midweek home fellowship or Bible study as well, and we're just thrilled.

Since been here, Chris, we've been here about six years, a little over six years. The first two and a half years, we spent in the

Gospel of John, just a tremendous gospel, so theological, so rich, but on the deity of Christ, and then did a brief four months in the

Sermon on the Mount, and then a series on the Holy Spirit, and then two plus years in the

Book of Revelation on worship, glory, and sovereignty in the

Book of Revelation. I don't know if you're aware of this, but out of the 400 plus verses in Revelation, about 270 are rooted in the

Old Testament, and so it was a great opportunity for our people not only to study

Revelation, but to also go back to the rich passages that John refers to.

He doesn't quote them verbatim many of the times. You have to go to them as a lost coin in the field. Search them out, but we had just a wonderful study incorporating that.

We did Psalm and Daniel 9, and 2nd Thessalonians 2, and the man of lawlessness, and Romans 9 to 11 on who is

Israel, what is Israel, and then just completed last fall the

Book of Ephesians, and then did eight weeks in the Psalms celebrating prophetically the coming of Messiah, and some of those rich Psalms, and then literally,

Chris, just three weeks ago started the Book of Titus, the handbook of evangelism. We thought with all that's going on in our world today, we need to be soul winners for Christ, and we understand that in the

Reformed tradition. That's under God's sovereign grace, but yet he uses us to go to the highways and byways to sow seed, to proclaim the gospel.

Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of Christ. Our sovereign privileges in the

Lord don't relieve us of our human responsibilities, and so what a wonderful joy.

I said, let's see our church grow by God's grace this year, not by other churches splitting, not by people leaving the church and coming over to this one and trying it, because you know,

Chris, if they come easy, they go easy. If you pick up 50 or 100 people due to a church split, man, they'll want to come and dominate, and the problems just follow, and it's not healthy, but if a congregation can grow, not through attrition, but through salvation, through the kingdom of God taking place in people's lives, and so, man, if you're praying for the cross church, that's how you can pray for us, that we would be a congregation dedicated to the great doctrines of grace and the wonderful reformed faith as scripture articulates it, but that we'd be what

Paul would call that he would win some for the kingdom, and he understood that under God's gracious sovereignty of calling his chosen people in times past eternal who were given grace in times past eternal before anything that was made was made to come to Christ, but in real time, they must repent and confess

Jesus as Lord and turn from their sin, and what a joy it is that God uses us to spread the seed of his gospel to the highways and byways, and so that's where we are as a church,

Cross Church, and the website, if I can be so bold, crosschurch .net, and they can listen to some of the messages and peruse many of the articles and things that we have on there, so thanks always for your support of our local church.

And at the risk of having people turn this program off immediately, what is your eschatological position?

Hey, well, you know what? That's a real loaded question. I'll do the thumbnail answer, and then if people are still listening, we can maybe come back for another show on this.

You know, I grew up in Wheaton, Illinois, the holy city of the Vatican II. It had so many

Christian organizations. I mean, Chris, on Sunday morning, we would sing, My Hope is Built on Nothing Less than Schofield's Notes and Moody Press.

That was our theme song, and so I grew up in the standard left -behind, rapture, pre -mill, pre -trib, kind of Hal Lindsey mentality of eschatology, and, you know, but I had questions coming up in my teen years, and then throughout my young adult years, and then when

I was on the road doing music full -time in Christian music, I would travel and minister in all kinds of denominations, and I, you know, eventually it got around to what do they think about the

Word of God, and what's their church government like, and do they have pastors and elders and deacons, and do they do church restoration and these kind of things, but ultimately, you would get around to what they believe about the

Lord's return, and most of the churches out there were rapture -oriented, pre -mill, pre -trib, but as I got to really study it and apply myself to it, you know, the rapture doctrine, and by that, meaning a separate coming of Christ apart from the second coming.

The Vulgate used the word raptura, the Latin, and so when a lot of the Reformed authors speak of the rapture, they mean it equally to the second coming of Christ.

They don't mean it as in the Hal Lindsey tradition of a mid -air touchdown, and then, you know, and so forth.

That really started with a young Scottish gal in the early 1800s, a dream that she had.

It was a vision, and a guy named Edwin Irving picked up on it, who really was booted out of the

Church of Scotland as a heretic. He and his fellow, they called them Irvingites, propagated this.

Darby picked up on it, kind of gave it a doctrinal little wrapping. He would send his messages to Schofield.

Schofield imported it to the U .S., then it went to, you know, Lewis Barry Schaeffer, and then on to contemporary pastors, ones that we love and count as friends and we honor today in the

Church, but believe in this, it's really a fictitious, apocryphal doctrine.

People will ask me, Chris, questions like, Steve, do you think when we go that all of our clothes will stay here, and we kind of leave airplanes and taxi cabs, and we're walking down the street, and do we have glorified clothes, or how is it?

Will it be embarrassing? Literally, I've had people come up and say, will we be naked going up in the rapture because we've seen the movies and all the clothes are left behind?

And it's this kind of silliness. It's the headline kind of news. People ask me all the time, do you think

President Obama is the Antichrist? I say, no, he's just a bad president. It doesn't mean he's the Antichrist. If I had to make my guess who the

Antichrist is, it's some homeschool mom out there somewhere that's got a control issue with her kids and private education.

No, I'm just kidding. But anyway, it's one of those things that what we see in contemporary society, we wanted in our church,

Chris, to have a biblical eschatology, not one driven by headlines, not one driven by current events, but one that was driven by Scripture.

And going through the Gospel of John and then Revelation, which occupied about four and a half years of study, and had been several years of study for me in the

Word. So where we land is really a modified amillennialism in our church, and we take

Scripture for what it is and believe it. But we don't believe in the modern day things.

Could you believe that justification was a doctrine that was invented in the mid -1800s?

I mean, no one would believe it, but the fact that it's rooted in Scripture and was passed down from the

Apostles to their disciples and then on to the Church Fathers gives us real merit and real blessing.

And so this is a wonderful thing to know that we can be expectant of the

Lord's return and the next great event on the eschatological calendar is the second coming of Christ.

But this idea of a secret rapture, our clothes are left behind, we have seven years of tribulation, there's a compact with the

Antichrist, there's some politician out there growing horns, or a 666 underneath the hairline in the movie

Omen. I mean, it's really just eschatology by Hollywood. It has no biblical merit whatsoever.

Now, what do you mean by modified amillennialism, though? Because it seems that whatever you said, as far as I can remember, seems to be in keeping with amillennialism.

Yeah, what I mean by that is that I know that there are slight variations of amill perspectives.

You know, like Hank Hanegraaff, he will not like to say he's amill, but that's really the camp that he...

Yeah, he's a partial preterist. He's a partial preterist, similar to R. C.

Sproul, and we would consider ourselves partial preterists. Full -on preterism, as you know, is not in keeping with God's Word, that it's all been fulfilled.

But a partial preterism, where we come down, is that the Gospel of John is really

John's Olivet Discourse, or pardon me, that Revelation is John's Olivet Discourse, where Matthew and Luke and Mark contain that.

John, in his Gospel, did not place that. We would say, for us, that this was an earlier date of writing than a later date.

We would say that these great themes of judgment and so forth are initially speaking to the destruction of Jerusalem in A .D.

70. I mean, think of it. The Jews lost not only their temple, but their land and their culture completely at that time, and the

Lord put a close on that chapter. So then we have to ask ourselves, what is or who is the real

Israel of God? And that becomes more than just a nation. And even the advent of, is there really a thousand -year physical millennial reign on earth?

Our millennialism is really misnamed because we believe we're in the millennium now, but Revelation 20 has a heavenly context to it as opposed to an earthly one.

And to think that staunch guys that believe, wonderful guys, I won't name their names, but gifted men of God today believe in a physical millennial reign of Christ, really goes against so much

Scripture. The key thing is the rebuilding of the temple so that all the Old Testament sacrifices are reconstituted.

That denies the it -is -finished statement of our Lord on Calvary's tree that all of the works, all of the festivals, all of the feast days, all of the shadow and types that pointed to the reality of Jesus and Him finishing that, as Hebrews 8 said, that old covenant and all of it is fading away, it's passed away, but we have a new covenant, and we know according to our

Lord the kingdom of heaven is not an earthly kingdom, it's a heavenly one. And so there are things like that that maybe not all millennialists will agree with, but that's our track, that's what we believe in.

And again, we're just as excited about the second coming without the advent of having to watch bad movies to understand their epitomology.

It's fun. Yes, well amen. And that was not obviously the main reason we're talking today.

So glad. And perhaps we can have you back again to discuss that at greater depth.

I happen to be on the same page with you, by the way. Oh, tremendous. But I'm going to go to Titus 3 verses 1 through 8.

I'm going to read that for our audience, and then we can pick up from there. Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.

For we also were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

But when the kindness of God, our Savior, and His love for mankind appeared,

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds, which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the

Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, being justified by His grace, we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

This is a trustworthy statement, and concerning these things, I want you to speak confidently so that those who have believed

God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

Well, we're going to be discussing that text in further depth. We'd like you to exegete that and also discuss what you, as a

Christian and also as a pastor and as somebody who's been involved in the blogosphere and so on, has been writing on some themes that are very controversial and you even at times have sparked public disagreement with brethren who may agree with you identically in most other things.

But as I was even saying to Cindy Martin Morgan at the beginning of our interview before, the last hour, the matter of politics and the

Christian is a very splintered, divisive area where you have people who are even sitting in the same pew in the same church and may have nearly identical beliefs, will disagree in part company with you,

Yeah, absolutely. So maybe you could start up as to why you specifically chose this text and move on to the greater picture here.

Yeah, you know, we're in the middle of an election cycle. It's going to be an exciting one, nothing boring about this year's election.

This is a different time, Chris, for the church evangelically across the nation than it has been in previous elections.

As you know, back in the days of Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell Sr. or even

Dr. Dobson, they led a coalition, the Christian Coalition of Value Voters.

They would refer to it as the Moral Majority. And where I came out and was not in favor of that was because I thought that if you're trying to unite the body of Christ only to sway by intimidation, politicians devote the way that we want them to vote across the board.

Then we're using the church as a device, as an entity that scripture never affords us.

However, it doesn't mean that the Christian should be absent of the political dialogue.

We see it in scripture continually. Romans 13, Paul lays out the purpose of government, that all governments, all heads of state are there by God's sovereignty, and he talks about the restraining of evil and social order.

We're also told in 1 Timothy chapter 2 that we are to pray for governors and heads of state and people in authority over us.

That's a good thing. We have a duty as citizens of heaven to be excellent citizens of earth.

Now we know that scriptural principally must apply to all cultures and all times and all generations.

It can't be unique to America or unique to Russia or unique to India. The principle of scripture must apply.

So in our scriptural context here in the United States, in our governmental context as the framers set up, that we have a voice.

Many cultures don't have a voice in their government. But we have, as you know, what people call the grand experiment.

It's a wonderful constitution, a wonderful bill of rights. If you've never read it, read it.

It's important for us to know the rule of law which governs our country. That's a biblical mandate.

We want to honor the laws of the land and honor those in authority over us. That goes from everyone from police officers to congressional leaders to presidents to supreme court justices to governors to park officials and public school teachers.

We want to honor people in authority similar within the home, similar within the church of God. But here in our day, people have retreated,

Christians have retreated from bringing and speaking a biblical worldview. I'm not talking about organizing a church,

Christians around the country to demand people vote in a certain way. That's not scriptural. But what we are to do is to make our voice known legally.

We can have peaceful demonstrations. We can write our congressional leaders. We can use

Facebook and Twitter and other means of social media to communicate these ideas.

We can place phone calls to our leaders and even communicate through email and other ways.

And that's a good thing. We also are to pray for our leaders. And so we want our leaders of our nation to rule with righteousness and justice and what is good and lovely and true and of a good report.

It's a way we love our neighbor. We also, Chris, want to make sure that on social issues that are clearly biblical, the aspect of what defines marriage, can the supreme court simply alter a creation ordinance, in turn marriage between a man and a woman now to the definition of marriage for them that it's two people in love, whether they be gay, straight, or transgender, absent even of children.

Do they have a legal right to do that? Well, no, they don't. What about the issue of abortion, the sanctity of human life?

These are not political issues. These are biblical issues. And I want to encourage pastors to ramp up their sermons and to preach the whole counsel of God so that if they come across these issues within their church, within their their towns or society, when the president or others step into this field, they are encroaching upon pastoral biblical ministry.

And it's there that we can speak truthfully. And again, it's not political for us. The murder of an unborn child, that's not a political issue, even though it has political ramifications.

That's a biblical issue. Marriage is a biblical issue. The issue of Christians being beheaded by Islamic terrorists, the

Muslim terrorists, those members of ISIS, that's a biblical issue because we know biblically the history of Islam is connected back to Genesis 16 with Ishmael.

In fact, Muhammad considers himself a direct descendant of Ishmael. We know how this exists and why it exists.

And so these kinds of things we must proceed upon, Chris, with care, with love, but with boldness.

And we must speak to them biblically. I think that sets the framework for where we are in our election cycle, where we must be as Christians in the culture and speaking to these things.

Again, the First Amendment isn't to separate church from state. The First Amendment was given to separate the state from the church.

It didn't silence religious or biblical discussion in the marketplace, even in the political realm.

What it did was silence the state from governing the worship and the biblical convictions of any local church.

Now, I have to be very careful here because I don't want to misrepresent a mutual hero of both of ours, living hero.

But John MacArthur, I don't think that I'm exaggerating when I call him a hero of the faith.

No, that's right. John's a tremendous man of God. And, man, I've been privileged to serve out there for a brief time on the pastoral team at Grace.

And John's been a mentor. I haven't seen him these last several years after being here. But he has been a dear friend.

We've walked through some tough water together. He's been there through some trials in my own life.

And I so appreciate his kindness, his grace to me and to our family and appreciate his ministry to this day.

So, no question, we hold him in high esteem. Yes. And, John, although he believes that individual

Christians can participate in varying levels of activism in the political arena, even running for office.

And he would even be excited and thrilled and strongly advocate a solid

Christian man running for political office and would hope to see him win if he is knowledgeable of all things that would be involved in governing a city, state, or country.

But he is very opposed to the church as an institution being involved in political activity.

That's basically, in summary, what I have gathered from what John has taught and from my interviews with Phil Johnson, the president of Grace TU Ministries.

Well, how are you in alignment with that? Or do you disagree with some of that, etc.?

No, you know what? I think, John, what he's recoiling, and we've talked about this before, what he's recoiling against is the moral majority

Christian coalition value voters kind of organizing the church universal to oust public figures.

I remember years ago, a dear man of God who pastored out of Memphis had a political rally at his church that Mr.

Dobson was heading up, and the whole theme of the Sunday night service was, Remember in November.

Remember in November. And the whole church was revved up to threaten politicians,

Republican, Independent, and Democrats, to either succumb to evangelicalism and voter -friendly evangelicals, or we're going to vote you out of office.

I think I agree 100 % with John, and that's what he's recoiling against.

That's frankly what I recoil against during that time, is using the church, pardon me,

Chris, as a weapon to threaten politicians with. That, again, violates the tenor and character of our persona, of how we are to live out our lives.

But it doesn't mean we don't speak to the issues. Recently, John preached, I believe, if this is correct, out of Romans, a series of messages exactly on this theme, and primarily it was out of Romans 1, and he was saying, just as we were talking here,

Chris, that issues of gay marriage, abortion, other things, of what we see going on.

He's even done several parts on Islamic terror, and a big issue across college campuses, even

Wheaton College, the sadness of what's going on there. Please pray for Dr. Ryken.

I hope he can bring clarity to that and stand the stalwart that we hope, hopefully he is in conviction, of leading that great college back to Biblical Christianity.

It is a liberal school now, sensitive to the Muslim faith, you know, supporting that teacher that was wearing the hajib in a kind of social political alliance for all

Muslims. I think there was a Christian, pardon me, a bishop, even in England, Chris, just this last week, that called for all

Christian ministers to grow long beards so that they could fit in better with Muslim clerics.

I mean, that's the non... Does that include the female clerics? Well, why do you think they wear burqas?

Anyway, you know what? No, I don't mean to be disparaging their beautiful, beautiful women in the

Muslim faith, but yet tortured. I mean, look at what's happening under the teachings of Muhammad, that wretched man, you know, obviously filled with Satan in creating this very idolatrous false religion.

But the big issue there, even in Christian colleges, does Islam and Christianity worship the same

God? I can't even believe people are dialoguing. It's one of my main topics on Twitter these days, of talking to people that are

Christian evangelists, Christian pastors and evangelical leaders that want to adopt out of social sentimentality.

One gentleman this morning, he's overseas, and he said, you know, Islam stands for peace,

Christianity stands for love. I am praying to the same God of Allah and the

God of Jehovah for peace and love to rule the planet. Well, that is just nonsense.

A stronger word would be heresy. I think that's what Dr. MacArthur speaks against, and I would be full on with him.

But, as John has preached very forcefully on the teachings of Islam, and that how

Allah is not the same God of the Bible, as John has stood up for the sanctity of the womb and the sanctity of all life, as John has preached on what occupies biblical marriage, and even though we would disagree with those in the gay community, we know the gay community is not our enemy.

The Muslim, as a Christian, as a church, I'm not speaking militarily now, is not our enemy.

They are our mission field. The abortionist is not our enemy. They are our mission field.

But yet, by rule of law, many are breaking the law. ISIS needs to be defeated militarily.

We should send them back to the dark ages. We should have a strong military front and not weaken that as a church, as a pastor, as Christians.

We should stand for a just war biblical theory against that, and we can preach on that.

Those are biblical issues. Dr. MacArthur has been a champion, not only of the gospel, but of the positions of a biblical worldview on those kinds of issues.

As we are talking here about Christians being in culture, in society, the issue is this,

Chris, and you and I were laughing about it before the broadcast went on, is what happened this last Christmas?

What was the riveting issue that occupied so many evangelical pastors? It wasn't the beheading of Christians overseas by Muslims.

It wasn't the reaching out to those that are struggling with the issue of abortion. It wasn't talking to identity crisis issues in the transgender community, or maybe even within the gay community, whom we should love and go to and preach the gospel and see them come to Christ.

It wasn't any of those things. What was it? They were outraged en masse that Starbucks had the gall to print a red cup without saying

Merry Christmas on it. I mean, really, this is the foolishness. Is it any wonder that a non -Christian society looks at us as evangelicals and says, these people are silly, frivolous, shallow, rancor tour communicators, that they are not serious, either about what's going on in the culture, or most importantly, going on with the gospel of the

Lord Jesus Christ? I've been dealing with issues involving Black Lives Matter, and not doing what some evangelical leaders do when they get on their radio shows, and they're saying,

I'm meeting with a black pastor across town, and we're going to have such a vibrant discussion on race.

No, that's pride, and that's just arrogance ad nauseam. What I'm talking about is dealing with the leaders of that movement.

By the way, can you pick that up right when we return from our station break? Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Thank you, brother. We're going to be going to a station break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air for the question of your own, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Steve Camp. Transcripts provided by Transcription Outsourcing, LLC.

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time. All Black Lives Matter. That includes 60 ,000 African American unborn children that were executed by Planned Parenthood in New York City alone.

All Black Lives Matter. That includes Tyshawn Lee, the little nine -year -old boy who was executed in Chicago, lured into a galley, then shot to death by some gangbangers.

They weren't picketing over that. They weren't marching over that. All Black Lives Matter. Let's talk about Randolph Holder, the

African American police officer who was breaking up a robbery and was shot to death. An African American policeman.

Let's honor that man. Blue Lives Matter. Yes, and all Black Lives Matter.

Let's talk about Amir Castro, who was gunned down a seven -year -old in a drive by by some

Latino and African American gangbangers down in Miami just a few weeks back.

He was a little black child, a little African American boy. Let's honor that one.

Why is it that we don't see Al Sharpton picketing that? Why is it that we don't see

Jesse Jackson marching for Tyshawn Lee? Why is it only when there's a white officer that on occasion goes beyond their duty and guns down needlessly as we saw with Laquan in Chicago?

Well, you know what? That officer should be tried. He should receive the full punishment of his crimes.

Even his fellow officers recognize that. And I was texting some of the people with BLM while this was going on.

And I said, listen, I'll show up and march with you, but let's make it equal justice, not selective outrage.

The biblical worldview is, love your neighbor. That's all of our neighbors, Chris. That's black lives, yellow lives, red lives, white lives.

You know, that's blue lives. That's anyone in our path in need. That's a transgender life.

That's a gay life. That's a straight life. That's an atheist life. That's an evangelical life. That's a reformed life.

And that's one of the nutty people out there that still believe in left behind life, right?

All lies. All lies matter. All lies matter.

I'm working on a new song about this. I can't divulge any more about this, but it's going to be the we are the world for the 21st century.

All lies matter. And the bottom line is this. We need, as the people of God, not to be given out to selective outrage and not to determine who our neighbor is and who our neighbor is not.

If you read the Gospel of Luke and the parable of the Good Samaritan, the Samaritan was set in a racial context, as you know.

But here, it was not just Jesus telling us who is our neighbor.

That's anyone in our path in need. More importantly, he was addressing the fundamental issue through the example of a non -believer in the

Samaritan of what it means to be a good neighbor. That's a whole other question.

So, if I can appeal to the listeners on your show and to my evangelical brethren, if you really want to be taken seriously as a

Christian, biblical worldview ambassador for Christ in our day, whether you are famous or not, whether you have radio shows or not, whether you have study

Bibles or not, whether you have books or not, whether you are in Christian music or not, whatever it is, you can make a difference in your city, on your street, in your neighborhood.

How? Love your neighbor. It's the second of the two great commands. Now, we risk,

Chris, some people saying, oh, that's just a social gospel. No, it's not. The Gospel is the

Gospel. Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

That is the Gospel. However, as the fruit of that Gospel, we are to love our neighbor.

And you know, it's a universal principle the Lord gave with that parable of the Good Samaritans. It wasn't just for believers.

It was for all people, just like marriage. It's a creation ordinance given to all people, not just believers.

So we have to stop playing this we -they segregated aspect of our

Christian beliefs and realize that, yes, we are to worship the Lord. It's only for Him.

We are to come and we are to celebrate Him. I like what Michael Horton says in Word and Sacrament.

That is for the Christian. But yet, we are Monday through Saturday. Sunday, the church gathered.

Monday through Saturday, the church scattered. We are to be in it, but not of it. We are to practice hospitality and invite people into our homes, not to surprise them with a little

Ray Comfort track at the end of the meal, right? We don't want to do that. We want to genuinely love them.

Why? They're made in the image of a holy God. For no other reason, they deserve our love and care and respect, because they are made by a

Creator and that brings them dignity. In fact, Peter says in 1 Peter 4, pardon me, 1

Peter 3, that even when we give a reason for the hope that's in us, we're to do it with reverence and respect and gentleness.

Reverence for God, but respect for our fellow man and gentleness. We want to walk with them and care for them.

We're not salesmen trying to close a deal with a little signing of a book or a sinner's prayer or raising of a hand.

We're not here to carve, you know, little notches on our evangelical belts. Man, we want to be in society, in the world, living for Christ, communicating

His gospel. That's what Titus 3 is all about. Honoring those in authority, being in the world, remembering our depravity, rejoicing our deliverance, but as you read in verse 8, rendering good works which are profitable for all people.

That's part of the gospel call of our lives. One of the problems

I see with the church, especially as an institution, getting aggressively involved in the political arena, however, and there are two things that immediately come to my mind.

One is turning conservative issues into another social gospel where you are replacing the gospel of Jesus Christ with all these very important and vital issues like abortion, like opposing the gay rights agenda, and all these other things that are going on in our sin -cursed society, but fighting those things and standing up for biblical marriage are very vital and wonderful and good things, but they are not the gospel.

And the second thing is when we especially support, as a church, publicly and vociferously a specific candidate, a candidate that might not even be a believer, and they typically are not people that would share our biblical faith, even if they claim to be

Christian, and this person may turn out to be a fraud, where we're side -by -side talking about the pure and inerrant

Word of God and the gospel that we are certain of, and right within the same breath endorsing a human being that we really don't know personally to be leader of the free world or even leader of our local town.

And, of course, the other issue is that our role as pastors is supposed to become political experts because there are more issues involved than the pro -life movement and the same -sex marriage issue and all these other things.

Is there one view that is harmonious with the Bible about immigration?

Is there only one view that is harmonious with the Bible about the

United States being involved in foreign wars and things like that? Oh, sure.

No, good. Let me give some brief thoughts on that. Excellent thoughts, excellent questions. Number one, pastors do need to be understanding the time like the

Men of Issachar. They need to know, any American should know the Constitution, should at least have a working knowledge of it.

It's interesting on the show Water's World, through Fox, Jesse goes to these campuses, to Yale and Harvard, and, you know, they don't even know the

First Amendment. I mean, these great institutions of learning, they don't even know the basics of what the rule of law is.

As a Christian, we want to be effective citizens of this earth, and, therefore, it's incumbent upon us not to be authoritarians on it.

None of us, you know, are going and getting a Ph .D., most of us, in constitutional law, no, but we are to read it, we are to understand it, we have a working knowledge of it.

As we are to be, you know, delving into the Word of God and to know what the Scriptures teach, listen, when

I go to a doctor, Chris, if I have a broken leg or need a kidney taken out or brain surgery, something more profound that way, you know,

I don't ask that, man, do you believe the five points of Galenism? You know, do you believe the doctrines of grace?

What is your view on Theo Neustadt, on divine inspiration?

And only then, if you can answer those questions, will I let you operate on me. No, you know what, I want to see that plaque, that they have giftedness in that area of service.

Today, I was taking a pickup truck that was donated to our church. It's 16 years old.

It's got some problems. It's got some dings. And I wanted a good mechanic. I didn't go to Icthus Motors.

I went to a good mechanic who I really like. He's become a friend, and he doesn't know the

Lord, but I'm working with him in an area of expertise. By the way, our apologies to anyone running a shop called

Icthus Motors that may be a completely fine establishment. There you go.

Yeah, I'm so sorry about that, if by coincidence that happened. But you know what, in the same realm of politics,

Chris, I used to be of the mindset, and I'm no longer this mindset, that the first quality that president should have is that he should be a born -again

Christian. Listen, it was born -again Christians that led us in 1980 into the terrible travesty with Iraq that almost ruined the economy that had interest rates of 22%, speaking of Jimmy Carter.

Look at some of the born -again or self -proclaimed born -again

Christians that throughout the last several years have appointed the most liberal judges to the

Supreme Court. The acid test for the presidency is not primarily faith.

Now, is it important that we would have a man of God that would love the Lord and pray to the

Lord and not pray as our current president does to a god of Islam? Is it important that we would like a

Christian there? Well, that would be wonderful, yes. But the acid test for the presidency is not

Christianity. The acid test for the presidency is constitutionality. That's what they're hired to do.

That's what they're running on. And so I think what we need to do is to look on social issues.

We've covered some. Gay marriage, abortion, the Islamic situation, immigration, the sanctity of life, all these things.

Some of these social issues we can address biblically. We're not bleeding hearts.

We can see truth in response to these things. To the Syrian refugee crisis,

I thank the Lord for Franklin Graham and what he's doing through Samaritan's Purse to minister there.

But at the same time, do we want thousands of Syrian undocumented refugees coming to our country?

No. Why? Because that breaks the rule of law. But you can go to those nations as a missionary.

You can go there and share the gospel, create safe zones in those other areas. We want to guard our borders.

That's a good thing constitutionally. That's a good thing in terms of honoring the rule of law.

As Christians, we don't make the gospel the acid test for Syrian refugees. That's a matter of political national security.

And so there's both of these things. We as Christians want to be involved in the Great Commission, sharing the gospel, loving our neighbor, doing good deeds, serving our fellow man, pointing them to Christ.

And at the same time, when it comes to the presidency, the first question mark that I have for anyone running these days, and I'm a conservative, but it's not, do they hold to the principles of conservatism?

I disagreed with the National Review article that was against Donald Trump.

He's one of several candidates. They should have made their plumb line to all the candidates, not just to one.

It was wrong for them to do that. But you know, bottom line is this, whether it's Marco Rubio, whether it's

Donald Trump, whether it's Ted Cruz or whoever it may be, there are several running,

God will have his way on who gets into office. But I would say to this, as a church, as Christians, we need to evaluate each of those candidates on their social convictions by the scriptures.

But yet, in matters of are they qualified for the presidency, look to the

Constitution. That sets the agenda. So the primary consideration is, let's have someone that's going to honor the

Constitution in government this year. I'm not going to tell you who I'm supporting currently. As a

Christian, vote your conscience. Do your homework. Evaluate the position papers of each of these candidates.

Look at the social issues and evaluate them biblically, and then vote your conscience. However, we do want to honor the rule of law, and then, as a rule of faith, no matter who gets elected,

I did not vote for our current president. But I pray for him daily. That's my biblical duty to do so.

I don't know if he reads any of my tweets. Probably not at all. But you know what?

I've tried to call him to repentance. And he needs the gospel of Jesus Christ. However, apart from that, he's not a constitutional president.

He doesn't honor the laws of this land. He has not honored the separation of powers that the framers have set up.

As a Christian, we can address that. We can speak constitutionally to those issues without minimizing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And we're out of time, Steve, and it's crosschurch .net, correct? Crosschurch .net,

and thank you, Chris. Always, the time flies by. If we can pick this up again, it's such an important discussion.

Yes. And I appreciate you greatly. God bless you. And I want everybody to remember that Jesus Christ is a far greater