WWUTT 515 Q&A I Never Knew Exegeting Interdenominational Ministry?

Final Judgment and the Meaning of “I Never Knew You”

At the final judgment, why will Jesus say to unbelievers, depart from me I never knew you, rather than you never knew me? And what kind of partnership can different denominations have with one another in ministry?

The answers to these questions when we understand the text.

This is when we understand the text, studying the word of God so we may know the mind of God. For all our videos visit our website at www .utt .com. Now here's your birthday boy, Pastor Gabe. Oh don't even.

Okay, do that again without the birthday boy. No.

It's gonna stay. Oh, hello everybody. Welcome to When We Understand the Text. Happy birthday!

With my co-host. I wish I had a noisemaker right now.

One of those things you can spin, like the New Year's noisemakers. Is that what it is?

That and like the kazoo thing too.

There we go. I guess that's not even a kazoo, that's just a trumpet. Yeah, well, you know. It is Friday and we take questions from the listeners. You can submit questions by email whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

And this first one comes from Rebecca. Woohoo! How about that? Great name. Hi Mr. Hughes and Becky. I love your videos and podcasts. My question is about Matthew 7, 21 through 23. Why does Jesus say, I never knew you?

God knows us because he made us and he knows everything. Why does it not say, you didn't know me? Thank you for biblically sound teaching, Rebecca from Virginia. Well, let's go ahead and go to the text and we'll read that particular section that she's asking about.

Matthew 7, starting in verse 21. Jesus says, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name?

And then I will declare to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you workers of lawlessness. So why does Jesus say, I never knew you? Instead, you didn't know me.

That would be a very scary position to be put in.

I think this is one of the most terrifying passages of scripture. Yes. That you could go your whole life believing that you had it right and then come to find on the day of judgment that he never knew us and that he did not know us.

That's scary. So this is the word know being used like knowing a person in fellowship. Okay. So we know people that live in our neighborhood. Right. But we don't know them on like a friendship sort of a level.

Right. Like you can say over there, the Johnsons live in that home or the Frederick's live over in that home. But do you actually know those people? You know of them. Right. You know their names, but you don't personally know them.

Right. So as Jesus is saying, I do not know you. He did not have a relationship with those who will be cast out from his presence at the day of judgment. Oh, I gotcha. Knowing God is not what saves a person.

Romans 1 19 through 20 says that we can or I'm sorry, what can be known about God is plain to everyone. Even God's eternal power and divine nature are clearly perceived in all that has been made. So a person can know God simply by studying creation.

But we're talking about know in a very crude sense. It's kind of like knowing of God rather than knowing God. But they don't know his son Jesus. And we only know Jesus through the gospel. What has been made by studying creation, we can clearly perceive that God is real and that he's even eternal and divine.

But we don't know Christ. Everyone knows God the father. Right. But not everyone knows God the son. That's the way I've heard David Platt put it. Okay. So everybody knows the father. That makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah. But not everyone knows the son. So it's clear in Matthew 7 21 through 23 that those whom Jesus is addressing do know the son. This is talking about those who do know Christ, not just knowing the father.

After all, they've prophesied in his name. They did mighty, many mighty works in his name. Right. But they did these things to benefit themselves. Right. Rather than to benefit others or give glory to God.

Their heart wasn't in the right place. Right. They did not have a heart for Christ. Right. It was just to benefit themselves. So we're saved not because we knew Jesus, but rather that he knew us. Remember that we love God because he first loved us.

That's 1st John 4 19. Right. And we read in 1st Corinthians 8 3. If anyone loves God, he is known by God. So the reason why you love God is because he knows you. Galatians 4 9 says, but now that you have come to know God or rather to be known by God.

And so Paul is pointing out there from our limited human perspective that it seems like we came to know God. But the reality is that he first knew us. And that is how we came to know him. Consider that in Jeremiah, God says, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.

Right. Jeremiah 1 5. And David says something similar in Psalm 1 39. You knew me before I was even formed in my mother's womb. And Romans 8 29 says that those whom God foreknew, he predestined to be conformed to the image of the son.

Those to whom Jesus is speaking in Matthew 7 21 through 23, have not been sanctified or shaped into the image of Christ because they were not foreknown. So if they have not been sanctified, they were not justified and therefore they were not foreknown by God.

So what it comes down to is this. The reason Jesus says, I never knew you is because they had not been known from before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1 4 elected by God for salvation. Rather, they were among the vessels talked about in Romans 9 prepared for wrath and destruction.

So we talked about this being a very scary phrase in scripture. You could think you have it right. And then you would be among those standing before Christ saying, did I not do any of these mighty things in your name?

And he'll say, depart from me. I never knew you. Right. So how can you know that you won't be among like the rich man.

That goes to Jesus and says, you know, I've done all these things, right? Yeah.

He thought, but he thought Jesus was a great teacher. She was looking for Jesus to say to him, hey, you're a good man.

You're going to make it. That's well, he called him out on his heart, right? He did.

And so Christ knows the heart. He searches the hearts and intentions of man. Yeah. And he knows whether or not we've been genuine. So how can you know that on the day of judgment, you will be among those to whom Jesus says, enter the kingdom that has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world and not depart from me.

You workers of lawlessness. I never knew you. And the answer is actually given to us in this very same passage, verse 21. Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. But the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven.

So if you do the will of the father, if you worship the son, if you believe in him and you do the things that Jesus did persevering in these things all the way to the very end, then you will be saved.

Jesus said to his disciples, he who endures to the end will be saved. So one other place to really test yourself on this. I didn't have this mark. So I got to find this here. Second, Peter, I went too far.

I'm in John second, Peter chapter one, beginning in verse five, Peter really helps us here to confirm knowing how to confirm our calling and election in Christ. So he says for this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue and virtue with knowledge and knowledge with self-control and self-control with steadfastness and steadfastness with godliness and godliness with brotherly affection and brotherly affection with love.

For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind having forgotten that he was cleansed of his former sins.

Therefore brothers be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election. For if you practice these qualities, you will never fall. So Peter kind of gives us the test of confirming our calling and election.

And that would, that would be a good section to study. Second Peter chapter one, verses five through 11. So I hope that was helpful, Rebecca. Very cool. Rebecca? Yes. Me too. Was it? Was that helpful?

It was very helpful. Good. All right. So this one's from Landon in Missouri, and he's addressing both pastor Gabe and Becky. Thank you both so much for your ministry. Gabe for handling the word with reverence and Becky for being the wife and mother Gabe needs for himself and your children.

Aww. Thanks. I would say that I do have a very wonderful wife who does take good care of me and our children. My question is about exegesis and different but orthodox traditions. I am an elder in the church of the Nazarene, which is Wesleyan in its theology.

I know from the Southern Baptist church and from your videos that you are of a more reformed tradition. Well, I'll go ahead and say that not all Southern Baptist churches are like that. So we've got some Southern Baptist churches with problems too.

In my tradition, there are many who watered down or hype up the texts because they believe the word needs help. Yep. That's in our denomination as well. I think that's every denomination. However, there are great men who I know who treat the word with the same amount of reverence that you do who exegete the text.

Yet, we come to different conclusions. I do not believe either one of you or the men that I know are eisegeting the text. Yet, I know one of us is wrong and I'm willing to be wrong on this. I have some, I have come to respect the reform position far more after meeting some SBC pastors who love the word.

I guess my question is as follows. Can two people be exegeting the same text and come to different conclusions? Thank you so much. So, let's once again kind of define the difference between exegesis and eisegesis.

So, exegeting the text means that we draw out of the text its meaning. Okay. Eisegeting the text means that we impose a meaning onto the text that the text doesn't mean to say, but it's kind of like we already know what we want to say.

We're just drawing the Bible verses that match what we say. Okay. So then we impose our meeting upon the text rather than submitting ourself to the text and letting it teach us.

And he's not just saying that definition for y 'all. He's saying that for me because I need that every single time. Now remind me again. Yes. Exegesis.

Come on, you know me. Now the difference between exegesis and exposition is that exegesis is a way of interpreting the text. Exposition is a way of teaching the text. Oh, so, so exposition is, is really the only surefire way to know that you are properly exegeting the text.

Does that make sense? Sure. So expositional teaching is what we're doing here on this program, Monday through Thursday. Okay. Got it. So I'm going verse by verse through the scriptures. We're studying it in context.

We're, we're desiring to understand it, how the Holy spirit truly meant to communicate it through God's prophets and apostles. Okay. Not imposing our meaning upon it, but really wanting to know and submitting to the authority that the word of God has.

Okay. So that's our intent intention. And so we do expositional teaching in order to exegete the text properly. All right. Does that make sense? Sure. Okay. So clearer anyway. So Landon is saying, so he knows some guys in the Nazarene church, very rare, but there are some guys in the Nazarene church who will exegete the text, but they're coming to different conclusions than he might hear me doing on this program.

I'm just going to go ahead and use myself as the example. Cause we can't just say all Southern Baptist pastors, only about a third of them really lean more on the reform side of things. Most of the denomination is, is not quite that way.

I think everything's on a, on a good trend when you're looking at that one third side. Yes, definitely. Yeah. Anyway, there's still, there's still problems in the denomination we lament over. Oh yes. But okay.

Anyway, neither here nor there. Rabbit trail. So he knows some good Nazarene teachers who are exegeting the text, but coming to a different conclusion than I might come to in my exposition of the text.

Okay. So Landon's question is, can two people be exegeting the text and come to different conclusions? Yes, they can come to different conclusions. Are they both right? No. So as R .C. Sproul has said, how many meanings of the text are there?

One. One. There's only one meaning of the text. There might be 10 ,000 applications, right? Right. But there's only one meaning. So, so let's, let's give an example of one meaning, but 10 ,000 applications.

So I'm going to go to, I'm going to go to Romans eight. I think that would be a good one. Romans eight here and do, do pages are sticking together because I don't use this Bible on a regular basis. We got down here to start the program and I was going to go run upstairs to get my Bible.

The one that I more often use. One of. One of my Bibles. And Becky said, I just put two Bibles right there. Grab one of those. So I'm grabbing one that I don't often use and all my pages are still stuck together.

So, all right, this is a, so in Romans chapter eight, we are told that in all these things, we are more than conquerors. This is Romans eight 37 in all these things. We are more than conquerors through him who loved us for, I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

So there's one meaning to that text. Okay. That nothing will separate us from the love of God in Christ. That's right. That those who are in Christ will always be in his love and nothing will separate us from his love.

Praise the Lord. Now, a Nazarene actually doesn't believe that. Oh, a Nazarene believes that you can fall out of the love of God. Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. You can lose your salvation. I actually didn't mean to choose this text for that reason.

That's not what I had in mind. You're actually kind of blushing. I am. Cause I'm like, boy, I was not meaning to go there, but I, yeah, but here we are. You are blushing. I don't see this very often. I'm kind of enjoying this.

I feel like I'm stirring controversy and that's not what I meant to do. That's not, I w I was not, uh, intending to do that, but nonetheless, that's the text I chose. And here we are. Yes. The Southern Baptist believe once saved, always saved.

Right. That we are in the hand of Christ. And as he said, no one will snatch them out of my hand, but the Nazarene believe that you actually can lose your salvation. So I promise. I hope you believe me, Landon.

I did not pick this text for that purpose, but this was what I was going to use it for. So, so we have one meaning in the text that we cannot be snatched out of, uh, the love of God that is in Christ Jesus.

We will always be in that love and there's nothing that can happen that will make us lose that, lose that love. So that's the meaning of the text. Now let's put an application to it. So there are people on the coast right now who are really concerned and anxious about hurricane Irma that is bearing down upon the East coast of Florida.

Right there. You know, some people might even be wondering where is God and the storm is coming. Has he forgotten us? Uh, you know, if this storm hits us, even though we prayed for it to go away, does that mean that God didn't hear our prayers?

Right? And so you can use a passage like this to assure and comfort a person. There is nothing in heaven and or, or on earth that will separate you from the love of God in Christ. He is still with you and he is even with you through this storm.

Praise the Lord. So hold fast and trust his promises and he will deliver you. We are promised that we will be delivered from the grave. We are not promised that we will be delivered from troubles in this life.

Very true. In the sense that we won't go through troubles in this life. We will. There's a big difference. Right. We will be delivered from these troubles. It just, it just might not actually be in this lifetime.

Right. And so the, so we rest in the comfort of the promises that have been given to us that God still loves us. He is with us. If the worst happens and the body dies, which really all things considered, that's the worst thing that could happen to a person in this, in this world is that they, is that they die.

If that happens, we are assured that the love of Christ will deliver us from death. Right. That we will not stand in judgment before God to be condemned, but we will enter his glorious kingdom. Not because of anything that we had done, but because of what Christ has done for us.

Yeah. So, so the, so that's one application, or you might tie that application to somebody who maybe has lost their job. I lost my job. I'm struggling. I don't know what God's got for us next. I don't know.

That's a hard place. Is he still, is he still thinking of me? Does he still know that I'm here? Does he understand the struggle and the bills that we have to pay and stuff like this now that I've lost my job?

And then, and then this passage can be a comfort that you are still in the love of Christ and he is still holding onto you. You have not been lost from the love of God. Right. So, so those are just examples of how there can be multiple applications to a passage, but there's only one meaning.

Right. So, if you're listening to a person exegete a text and they come to one conclusion and you listen to somebody else, exegete a text and they come to a different meaning, somebody is wrong. Right.

Or both of them are wrong. That could be it too. But there's only, there's only one meaning. And, and sometimes when we say that they're wrong, it might not be like a serious wrong. It's not like they're wrong to the degree that they're heretics.

Right. It's like for, like for example, what we had just explained related to the difference between how Southern, a Southern Baptist would interpret this passage and how a Nazarene would interpret this passage.

I would not consider you land in a heretic because you're a Nazarene. Well, of course not. And likewise, you wouldn't think that of me, even though we might interpret Romans eight verses 37 through 40.

Is that right? 39, 37 to 30. There's only 39 verses in Romans eight, not 37 through 39. We might interpret that differently, but that doesn't mean that we're heretics. Somebody's wrong and somebody does need to correct their thinking, but we can show grace and charity to one another in, in those situations.

Right. If it's not, if it's not heresy, if it's not leading a person to, away from the saving grace of Christ. Amen. Which that's what, that's what heresy is. So anyway, yeah. Did I wrap that one up okay?

I think so. Make sense? Okay. Yeah. Well, thank you for your question, Landon. I do hope that was helpful, even though I was dogging on Nazarene's there. Wasn't even, we actually have a ministry with our church that involves a couple of other churches in town.

And one of them is a Nazarene church. And Eli, the youth pastor over there, we've had conversations about this, so he knows where I'm, he knows where I'm at, but I don't think Eli's not a heretic. There's, I have problems with the Nazarene doctrine, but there's nothing about what they're doing over there that I think that, you know, would, would disqualify them as Christians.

Right. Anyway. Okay. So this next one is from Marco from Polo. I'm just kidding. I just threw that in there. Marco, Marco Polo. He says, Hey, Pastor Gabe, I absolutely love the work. I bet he gets that a lot.

Probably so. I love the work that you and the rest of the what crew do. God has blessed you greatly with this ministry and you have blessed many brothers and sisters with it as well. I've actually learned a lot from your videos and have recently started listening to your podcast.

I started about episode 400. Where are we now? 500 something. 520. Something. Yeah. I don't, I can't remember. I lost track, but decided to start listening at the very beginning. He's going all the way back to episode one.

Anyway. That's ambitious. That's a lot. That's a lot of podcasts. Pastor Gabe, I had a question on intermingling with other denominations. So here we come to that again. I am currently attending a Baptist church.

So of course I'm Baptist and our pastor was recently discussing with my father-in-law about working with a Pentecostal church from another town to do a separate program on bullying and marriage. I don't see anything wrong with working together with other churches denominations, if it's for a good cause, but I fear the Pentecostal belief and ideologies being unbiblical during the programs.

I think I read that wrong, but anyway, it will, it will have unbelievers attending as well. My question is, should I, as a Baptist, as a Christian above all else, and my church associate ourselves with different denominations and, or churches that have unbiblical beliefs.

I don't want to sound unloving in this question, but I'm really curious. Thanks a lot, Marco. So again, we have, we agree on the mains. We all agree together on the main doctrines, but then there are secondary doctrines that we disagree upon.

And that's why there are different denominations. So denominations are caused by a separation or a disagreement on secondary issues, right? We all agree on the essentials, but we don't all agree on the mains.

Now there are some that disagree on the mains and then they create that. There is that as well, but so I'm, I'm talking about in the most generic sense of denominations. And then within a specific church, one single church, you will also have tertiary disagreements, right?

So not everybody in the same body will agree on absolutely every issue. Thankfully. So, like I said, there are churches that we disagree on related to secondary issues, but we still partner in ministry with one another because we hold the essentials to be the same.

When Marco uses the term Pentecostal, when he's talking about partnering with a Pentecostal church, I bristle a little bit at that. It's not very descriptive. I don't know what it is that this particular church believes, right?

I don't know what's in there. There's no details. The Pentecostal churches here in our community are heretics, right? And I don't know that there, that there is a Pentecostal church in here in town here.

That isn't, they usually deny. It's unfortunate, right? Right. I mean, there are charismatic churches here in junction city, right? But specifically the ones that, that identify as Pentecostal, either deny the Trinity, or they will say something like you have to speak in tongues in order to be saved.

Right. That's heresy. Cause that is elevating to an essential level. Something that really does not have to do with salvation. So. And the essentials are. The essentials would be like the deity of Christ, his resurrection from the grave, understanding that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God that the Bible is the word of God.

Trinity. I mentioned the incarnation of Christ because in first John, it says that if somebody doesn't believe that Christ has come in the flesh, that they're an antichrist, that Christ is coming back again.

That salvation is by grace through faith alone and not by our works. Those would be examples of essential doctrines. Okay. So our Pentecostal churches in our community would be. They somewhere, they have a problem with essentials.

And so we would not partner with any of the Pentecostal ministries. There are some charismatic ministries here in town that we have done work with. Right. And, but like I, like Marco said, I do have, I struggle with that a little bit.

So when he uses the word Pentecostal speaking from the experience that I have in my own community, I wouldn't do any ministry with them at all. But but again, that's something you're going to have to look into.

I mean, are you talking about a church that that is Pentecostal by association or is it Pentecostal in practice? And it's really more like a mild Pentecostal church, maybe a hyper charismatic, I don't know.

Right. So it's just something you kind of have to look into, maybe sit down and interview the pastor, ask him some basic questions. Anytime our church has done a partnership with another ministry, we want to make sure that we're all together on the main issues.

Yeah. And so if they are not in agreement on certain essential doctrines, certain things that you as a church hold fast to as essential to the Christian faith, then you would, I mean, politely have to tell them, I'm sorry, I don't think that we can do this.

Right. So that's something you might have to take to your pastor.

And again, just to make sure that everything's on the up and up. Right. Exactly.

So like we would not even do a partnership with the church of Christ. Not everybody would agree that the church of Christ believes heresy, but the church of Christ believes that you have to be baptized in order to be saved, which would be considered a work so they don't believe in salvation by grace through faith alone.

So though there are differences of opinion as to whether or not the church of Christ is a heresy, we as the Southern Baptist church, and I'm talking specifically about my church, would not do any partnership with the church of Christ for that reason.

So there, there are some pretty significant issues that would keep us from partnering in ministry together. But anyway, I hope that's given you some help, Marco, and you can take that to your pastor and you guys can talk it out with this church.

The Difference Between Exegesis and Exposition

Yeah. So anyway, that's the show today. Thank you very much for, uh, happy birthday. Okay. Just don't sing it. Oh, we've had people requesting that we stop singing. Oh, that's true. That makes me sad.

Anonymous in particular. He's, he's done with me singing now. All right, let's pray and then we'll be done. All right. Dear Lord, thank you for our time together and we thank you for the listeners and our desire to want to learn and grow from your word.

And I pray that you continue to teach us and guide us as we read through these things, exegetically expositionally so that we might, uh, know the whole knowledge of God and submit ourselves to, uh, your word and the authority of your word.

And not only be hearers of the word, but we would also do what it says. I pray that if we have any listeners that are in the Southern portion of Texas recovering from, uh, the flood that was caused by hurricane Harvey, that you keep them and deliver them.

And, uh, and that your gospel is continuing to spread even in that area, among those who desperately need to hear it in the midst of such disaster. And we pray for those who are looking at the storm that is coming upon them in Florida, maybe even in Cuba and areas down there, uh, around the Gulf and the Atlantic basin.

Uh, we pray that, uh, that you would take care of them and continue to comfort them in your love and that they would be assured by the promises that we have in scripture, that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

And, uh, if, uh, today would be the day that we would be taken from this earth and into glory. We know by the promises that we have stored up in our hearts, according to what your word says, that we will not stand condemned before God, but we will hear from our Lord and master.

Well done, good and faithful servant for great is your reward. We pray that you bless us and keep us forgive us of our sins and lead us in paths of righteousness in Jesus name. Amen. Amen.

So went to the gas station and the pump wasn't working. The computer part wouldn't come on. So I had to go in and pay. And then I went back out, ran, I ran cause we were late, ran back out to the car and I, um, push the button and it looked like it was going to start.

And so I picked up the nozzle and the nozzle sprayed everywhere cause it had the hook part.

Oh, where you push the little catch on the catch. That's what it's called. Yeah. Okay. So, uh,.

So it was still engaged. It was, it was. That's why the computer wouldn't come up because it was still thinking that somebody was using it or whatever. I don't know. You're just shooting gasoline everywhere.

It did. It did. It shot everywhere but me. Um, I got a few sprinkles here and there,.

But thankfully I'm amazed you didn't come home smelling like gasoline.

I always smell like roses.