Good Faith Debate on Pro-Life - Part 1

Alright, well, I'm never going to actually be ready to do this, so let's just do it. This is the Good Faith Debate Pro-Life. Should we focus on womb or womb to tomb? Now what's funny about this, and I think this will probably be a theme that will come up again and again and again, but even just the existence of this debate betrays a capitulation of sorts, because we would never have set aside any time or any brainpower debating this topic if it was a different demographic group, right?

Like if it was legal to just kill black people if you wanted to, or if it was legal to kill LGBT people if you wanted to, nobody would ever think, oh, let's have a debate on whether or not we should ban killing black people, or if instead we should make killing black people unnecessary by, you know, welfare programs, you know, maybe fully funded public schools, free health care, so that way it's not even necessary to kill, like, I can't even say it because it's just so insane, right, nobody would ever be discussing that, they'd be like, no, no, we actually have to ban killing, right?

And so even the existence of this debate shows you that, you know, evangelicals in general, they actually don't think that babies are really made in the image of God. They would never debate this way if they really did think that.

So that's a capitulation just kind of in and of itself. The other thing that I'll say, too, is my prediction is that we're going to get a lot of kind of misconstrued sort of goals here, because I think a lot of evangelicals, you know, just assume, like, our goal should be to limit abortions, right?

As long as we're limiting abortions, you know, doing whatever we can to limit them, that's okay. And actually, that's not even the right goal. The goal is to honor Christ in executing justice according to his commands, right?

That's our goal. We should be focused centrally on what's required from King Jesus. And King Jesus says that you shall not murder, and he says if you murder, then you, after, you know, after a court case and we hear from witnesses, two or more witnesses, if you're found guilty of murder, you should be executed according to God's law.

That is justice for those who have been murdered, right? And so, this idea of limiting abortions, yeah, of course, you know, as a deterrent, the death penalty will limit abortions, yes, but that's not the goal, that's not the pragmatic goal.

The goal is to honor Christ and to do what he says and to execute justice according to what he says. It will limit abortions, but that's a side, really a side issue. We're supposed to be exalting Jesus and doing his commands.

And so, let's just, let's just dive into this and, well, we'll see where it goes. Some winsome music here, look at that, we've got our cameras, they're working, our lighting, we've got our celebrities, there's Scott Klusendorf and he's ready to go, and there's Karen Swallow-Pryor, I see, working on her image by dressing all in black.

Oh, man, I honestly, honestly, like, why, why, why? I just, I don't get it, I don't get it, I'm just going to be nice today.

The Meaning of Pro-Life and the Goal of Justice

I am anti-abortion. Me too. Actually, a lot of people are against abortion, as continual surveys show among Americans, and people are against abortion for a lot of different reasons. Yeah. Some politicians, for example, support anti-abortion legislation in order to win votes and stay in office.

Yeah, that's true. Sometimes that is even the only way they seem to really oppose abortion, as shown when, in their real lives, they choose or even coerce abortion upon women they have impregnated. There's the former RNC deputy finance chairman who paid $1 .6 million to a Playboy Playmate with whom he had an affair after she aborted his child.

And then there's the Pennsylvania Republican who resigned in 2017 after it was revealed that he had urged his own mistress to get an abortion. And then there's a Tennessee congressman who supported his ex-wife's two abortions before their marriage and then pressured his mistress, a 24-year-old patient of his that he was having an affair with, to also get an abortion.

So one can clearly vote against abortion but still not be pro-life. And you can also be against abortion because you think that women who choose to have sex ought to face the consequences for their choices or even be punished for their sexual activity.

This is actually, I think, the implied view of those who would seek exceptions to abortion in the cases of rape, incest, or other kinds of assault. And that implies a view that says that women who have chosen to have sex can't have access to the abortions that women who had sex against their will have.

I was not expecting that. She's right. She's definitely right. I always found the exception in the case of rape, Republicans and the people that vote for that kind of legislation, I always found that insane.

It's like, what did the baby do? Is it a life or not? We would never ever consider such a thing in any other demographic situation. Because you got raped, it's now okay to murder? That doesn't make any sense in any context.

Even this context, right? So she's kind of right. If you kind of roll back the implications of that, it's like, well, I guess if it's not your fault, then you don't have to be cursed with the baby. Even though the scripture says that the baby is a blessing.

And not only does the scripture say this, which of course is the only reason to really believe this, but even the testimony of women who have been raped and had a child through that rape, they often look at that child and they love that child and it's the only good thing that came from that horrible situation and all of that.

And it's like, man, yeah, that's exactly right. The scripture is right. A child is a blessing. And just because you can make an emotional case, well, why should she have to carry it to term if she didn't even want the baby?

Well, you can make an emotional case if you want, but the baby didn't do anything. You would never make that case in any other context. And so I got to hand it to her. She's 100 right. And I did actually like the critique of people who vote for pro-life or who claim they're going to be pro-life in how they vote in Congress, but in actuality, they don't really care about babies.

I mean, this is true. I mean, politicians lie about all sorts of things. All politicians do this. It's just part of their job. They lie like it's their job. She's right. I got to say, I mean, wardrobe choices aside, the way this is started, I'm impressed.

I'm not going to lie.

Good for you. The basis of supporting abortion access in these cases belies a belief in the intrinsic value of every human life, regardless of the circumstances of conception. That's right.

And listen, we ought not to be ashamed as Christians. And maybe she'll go into this. I don't know. I mean, I have no idea what to expect now that I've been so impressed by the first two minutes. But for a Christian, we ought not to be embarrassed.

Like, I'm against abortion because I'm a Christian, because God has said, you shall not murder. And he didn't put a little asterisk next to that and say, unless it's a baby in the womb and you don't want him and all that kind of thing.

In fact, he makes a special, he pays special attention to infants and to babies that are defenseless. And you offer him up to Molech, he finds that especially detestable. And so that's why I'm against abortion because a baby is made in the image of God.

I know that from scripture. And that's why I'm against abortion. I'm anti-abortion. It's just that simple. It's just that simple. We ought to be, scripture should be the first thing we go to when we're talking about the abortion issue.

I'm against abortion because I am a Christian who believes in God's word. If I was not a Christian and I didn't believe in God's word, I probably wouldn't care. But since I do, and I know that God is real and he's there and he has a law and he's commanded these things, then that's why I'm for these things.

Anyway, we'll see if she gets in. I'm impressed. Karen, Karen.

You got me. You can also be against abortion in the same way some men that I actually know won't get their dogs neutered because in such cases they see this as some sort of hindrance against raw male sexuality and they take it as a personal insult as they would also in abortion.

And you can also be against abortion in the way that some political dictators throughout history have opposed abortion for some classes and groups of people but not for others. In Nazi Germany, healthy Aryan women were prohibited from getting abortions but women in other groups had abortions encouraged or even enforced upon them.

And you can even be against abortion for yourself but not for others as we hear repeated very often words like, well, I wouldn't have an abortion but... Yeah, that's dumb. And you can be against abortion as I am and as I think most everyday people are because your opposition is based on a truly pro-life ethic.

You can also be for abortion to use it as a Trojan horse to get into the Christian church and then say, well, you can't actually be against abortion unless you're also for all this socialist stuff and all the welfare programs and all the commie stuff but nobody in this room would ever do that.

Definitely not. One that opposes abortion.

Not in order to gain political power not to control women's sexuality not to control the population in certain ways but rather simply because you believe that innocent human beings have a right to life that no one has the moral authority to destroy.

It's really not that human beings.

Have a right to life. That's kind of a that's a weaselly thing because there is no right to life in scripture because your life is forfeit depending on what you do. If you're a murderer, if you're a rapist if you're a serial adulterer the Christian law ethic is that you don't have the right to your life anymore.

God requires that of you depending on the crime you might commit. So right to life I just don't even like that because that's not what it is. Nobody has a right to live but God has given you life and you owe God allegiance.

You have the right to obey Christ. And Christ has said if anyone murders then this is what you do. He's very specific about how you try them and how you execute them and how you find them guilty. There's got to be two or more witnesses.

We've got to figure out what happened. We're not just going to go. He said, she said so the scripture is the reason it's not that anyone has a right to life. You can play around with that all of a sudden you can be like capital punishment is not allowed.

It's in scripture though people have a right to life and nobody has a right to take it from them. Well actually some people do have the right to take your life from you depending on what you do and it's in the scripture and so I don't care about the term pro-life or right to life.

I actually don't think that's effective. For a Christian maybe it's cool nice slogan or something like that but for a Christian my opposition to abortion and the reason why I think it should be abolished.

The reason why I think it should be a death penalty offense is because God has commanded in his law that that be so and that's the end of the discussion. I don't need the snazzy slogans or whatever. They're too weaselly.

Anyway you can all of a sudden get that Trojan horse in there which I'm assuming is what she's going to do at some point she's going to pull. She impressed me in the first two minutes. She's probably going to pull that rug at some point but maybe not.

I mean I've got to give her credit because I was not expecting that dressed all in black and defying expectations. You don't even have to be a Christian to believe this.

Just consider pro-life organizations and groups such as secular pro-life or new wave feminists or feminists for life of America. But if you are a Christian who is pro-life then a whole host of factors becomes or should become part of why we oppose abortion.

Now again I have no problem being described as being anti-abortion because I am in fact decades ago I continue to be impressed. We're four and a half minutes in. She's impressing me.

Particularly by the media. This is going to make the rug pull that much better.

I argued for the use of these terms because of their specificity and because of their clarity.

And because of their truthfulness so she argued for being anti-abortion. Karen? Karen? I don't even know what to say. That rug pull is going to be quite a sight to behold.

We live in kind of a marketing age and branding is important and we have adopted the terms pro-life and the other camp pro-choice because they are much more marketable. That's what I just said. It's a slogan Karen?

Dude I was not expecting this. I was ready to go in and Karen just keeps impressing me. Five minutes in and she's knocking this one out of the park. I'm still waiting for that rug pull.

The term pro-life began to appear even before that's why I don't use pro-life as right to life. Groups were formed around the country and when that ruling eventually dropped the term pro-life was at the ready.

And interestingly enough the pro-choice camp came up with their label in response to the pro-life term because it was so rhetorically brilliant that the abortion rights camp wanted to come up with something equally marketable and inviting.

I think the pro-life camp won on this one. It's hard to argue with being against life much as people might try so all this to say that we ought not to be ashamed of being against abortion. Abortion is the intentional and deliberate and premeditated taking of an innocent human life.

How could we before that.

Guys I honestly don't know what to say I'm sure at some point again I'm waiting for that rug pull but it's good. Karen I gotta give you your props here good job.

When I came to be pro-life many years ago it was drilled into me that we were pro-life from womb to tomb. This meant that we opposed not only abortion but also infanticide and euthanasia anything that would be a direct physical attack against a human being.

But between the womb and the tomb there are countless ways to breed a culture of death a spirit that is anti-life and therefore anti-Christ for most pro-life Christians. The principles that compel us to oppose abortion include a basic understanding based on biology not even religion or theology that a new human life is created when egg and sperm meet.

This is a discovery that was made in the 19th century as a result in part of the technology of microscopes. It has been in medical textbooks since then and still remains in basic biology textbooks that this is when a unique human entity is formed.

That is the first principle for anyone in being pro-life. The second principle is the belief that all human beings are made in the image of God. This is essential for those of us who are Christians and forming our views on abortion.

And the third principle for Christians who are pro-life is the further understanding woven throughout scripture that each human life is created by God knitted together by him in the womb and that every person is loved by him.

And a fourth principle is that the highest purpose of human law is to protect human life. The taking of human life is licit only in very limited and defined circumstances which of course continue to be debated today.

And these are topics for another discussion but they are still topics that must be underpinned by the very principles that we're talking about today as we consider what it means to be pro-life.

So God actually tells us exactly what the government is for the laws that we enforce and create, they have to be based on God's law, God says that the civil governing authority is there to be an avenger of God, in fact I think the King James says a revenger.

So it's like, you know, justice is God's, that's what it says in the scripture. And then in the very next couple sentences it tells us it's the civil governing authority that gets that vengeance, vengeance is mine says the Lord and here is what it is the government is for vengeance and so that's what it's for and yes that does protect human life but it doesn't do so in a peanut butter way that's just protecting all human lives just the same, no no no it actually takes into account who's the victim who's the criminal and things like that what they did, what they didn't do how we can prove it and all of that.

So our laws ought to be a reflection of God's laws and God's justice, it's really just that simple and that's why we know that abortion should be outlawed and should be punishable as a criminal offense with a death penalty.

These principles that lead us to oppose abortion.

I had to say something, I hadn't spoken in quite a long time, this part is kind of, to be honest I'm a little bit bored, but maybe that's just because I, you know I don't know, but I got nothing here, I mean everything she's saying is pretty good.

...be applied in our philosophy our actions, our votes and our lifestyles in every area that threatens the loss of a human life or human lives and the failure to advocate against abortion based on these consistent life principles and the failure to also apply these principles clearly and consistently to other issues undermines principled opposition to abortion and therefore undermines a pro-life ethic.

As a whole. And so this is where I think probably the rug pull is starting to happen because I added this but it is conspicuously missing. It's that what we ought to do as a civil governing authority with our laws is seek to apply the general equity of God's laws.

God puts a big book of law in the scripture and he intends us to use that law. He didn't just leave us out there in the dark to just decide whatever we want to do. We gotta promote human life and it's really not like that.

He gave us a law on how to do this and he tells us exactly what the government is for and he gives us a lot of detail. He didn't give us every detail but he gives us a lot of detail and so if that's missing from the beginning of your presentation then you can kind of slip in.

Oh well we gotta be consistent right. I mean God wants people to be well fed so let's feed them with our laws and our free stuff. And it's like yeah but you know God also told us how to do charity too and it's not through the government.

And so when you divorce your pro-life ethic from the scripture and the clear commands of God that leaves room for all kinds of shenanigans and so let's see maybe I'm just maybe I'm not giving her enough credit although I have to assume this speech is almost over.

I think the last one was 10 minutes each. I don't know yeah it is so I wonder if I would assume that the moderator is going to ask her to be more specific. She wasted a lot of time. She wasn't really that specific and there's a lot of shenanigans that can happen with what she said.

Well you gotta be consistent and we gotta promote things that promote life and it's like true but only according to God's law like we can only do it according to God's law. God's law is what matters. Christ's commands are what matters and it's unfortunate that you know she spent so much time talking about you know Republicans are hypocrites and you can be pro-life for different reasons and by the way a lot of atheists are good pro-life people too.

And then she's like well you see Imago Dei it's a pro-life ethic and it's very general and it's like I'm wondering how if she did that on purpose just to be sort of slippery and all of that because she didn't actually give an example so what is actually womb to tomb pro-life.

I mean I know you're not talking about euthanasia. I know you're not talking about infanticide. You're talking about something else. It would be nice for you to just be open about that but then again what do I expect a woman all dressed in black to do who doesn't really smile that much either.

You know Karen you really ought to smile more. It's amazing but both women who have been in these debates they just have that kind of you know like that that hardened sort of angry face. I just I'm not saying anything but I'm just saying two for two anyway we will stop there.

We're going to let Bill Gates here go next and I'll see you in the next video. I hope you found this one helpful. God bless.