May 21, 2013

Alpha & Omega Ministries iconAlpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now. It's 6029 Seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one And now with today's topic here is
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James white And welcome to the dividing line got a lot of stuff to get to today have a decent list here
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Which means probably taking phone calls, but we will take one phone call If you are the person behind the email
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ID descriptive grace at very well -known email server that scans all your stuff and then puts ads on all your web pages and freaks you out because all the web pages know
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Stuff that they really shouldn't know about you. But anyways, if you are the person behind Descriptive grace
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I have invited said person to call in today to Substantiate his or her comment on turds and fans blog
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The comment was anything written by James white is a disservice to Christianity. I'm sure it's full This is about my book on the
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Quran I'm sure it's full of all kinds of bigoted attacks on Christians and that half of the information is
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In oh, he actually edited it. Oh That's funny On Islam is an actor because that's just how
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Jimmy rolls So I've invited him to a call -in and to substantiate what he has said
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It says all of my books are just nothing but a cover for attacking non -Calvinists and All sorts of other lies and falsehoods and just a clear demonstration of an incredible amount of prejudice so the phone lines are open for descriptive grace to substantiate his
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Cavill's and My opinion is that like 99 .99
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% of everybody else I run into These folks are very brave behind keyboards not so much when you actually have to Answer questions directly to yours truly.
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So we will we will we will go there now I'll get a little bit. Yes. It's a phone lines are working good
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Wanted to fill you in on what happened over the the weekend we only had one dividing line last week
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I think I heard some complaints about that. But anyway Went up to Reformation, Montana and You know beautiful country up there.
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It was pretty pretty cloudy and drizzly and rainy the whole time. I was there, but Looks like a beautiful area probably a little bit colder than I would be able to handle on a regular basis
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But I've been told they have quite a cycling community up there. So Maybe they we can go back there sometime and there's some nice big mountains to climb.
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But anyways, it's up around Thirty six thirty seven hundred feet. So it's sort of a little bit similar to the
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Prescott area things like that a little bit lower 50 200. Well, okay. Anyways, it was nice and I Start off my time up there doing the debate
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Thursday evening with Justin Lee now If if you talk to Justin, it seems that he was very clear and saying he wasn't gonna be debating
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He was just gonna be having a dialogue If you talk to the folks who talked with Justin, you know, they sent him the format and he had agreed to that it seemed rather clear to me that Justin hadn't really started thinking about this until like about Monday of last week and Got very concerned about what was going to happen and What I found odd was he kept saying look
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I'm here representing GCN the Gay Christian Network, and so I have to you know
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Recognize there's all sorts of different perspectives represented within GCN. Well, okay but the reason we contacted
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Justin Lee was not because he was ahead of GCN the reason we contact Justin Lee is because he wrote a book called torn and Though Justin had not
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Really done any meaningful study in what I have had to say I had read torn three times and listened to his public
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Presentations multiple times as well. And That's what we do. We we try to be prepared if we have the opportunity to know what someone's gonna be saying and to know their position well, then we will be prepared and so I had a
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Prepared opening had 20 minutes opening statement and As I listened to Justin start off because I left that up to him
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I said, you know if you want to go first on me to go first, whatever. I'll leave it up to you
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We could tell when he got there. He was very very nervous Said he had not ever done this before and this is sort of against his convictions.
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You shouldn't be doing debates and and so on so forth and and so I was doing everything
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I could to try to Set him at ease to let him know that we we do these things respectfully and Stuff like that.
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So he makes his opening presentation and I immediately realized That what
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I have prepared. I'm just I'm not gonna be able to do I'm gonna have to fly by the seat of my pants and for the first time in almost somewhere between 125 and 130 moderated public debates
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And you can actually listen to the vast majority of those Unlike some people who claim to have done many and you can't anyway,
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I Had forgotten my live scribe pen
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I had left it sitting on my desk and that's what I use when I'm in debates. And so I Normally what
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I do is I have a pad of paper or the live scribe thing and and I'll put the person
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I'm debating his name Date normally location and then sometimes I'll scribble out what the time controls are going to be so 20 minute opening statements 10 minute rebuttals, etc, etc, and Then I you know, so I wrote all that out on a pad of paper that squirrel let me let me have had a had it in his car and That was last time
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I touched it for the first time in Nearly 130 debates. I did not write any notes because I didn't need to I mean
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I had done so much study of his position that I knew all of his stories and He didn't say he only said one thing that I had not heard him say before and So I didn't need to take any notes the the challenge of the evening was in essence to keep him on the stage
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I Mean if I had wanted to if it had been my desire to have a spectacle of Since it wasn't being videotaped.
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It would have been much of a spectacle but but to create a spectacle of Someone walk, you know
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Storming out of the room and going I win see I'm a great defender of the faith blah blah It would have been very easy to do very very easy to do but that's not why
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I was there and So The whole evening was
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Not on a debate level a challenge, but it was really a challenge to try to dialogue with Justin in such a way as to Interact with what he was trying to say the people that were there
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The people that were there really seemed if if there were any negative comments
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About the debate I didn't hear them and maybe squirrel and the guys are just keeping those away from me. I don't know
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But the vast majority of people that I did talk to just thought that it was an excellent
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Opportunity to engage someone with same -sex attraction who claims to be a
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Christian To to challenge them to talk about important issues And to provide a real contrast between the perspective that was pretty much from Justin's perspective based upon himself and his own experience and Saying we're not the ones to get to decide these things and So When will we have the
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I mean we have the audio audio now, right? When do you think you'll be able to get that up? Try to get up today
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I know you said tomorrow, but I'm just gonna skip that But that way that way if anybody wants to complain just so everybody knows today or tomorrow
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No, no, I I only heard today or tomorrow. Okay But if it's tomorrow
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Address all complaints to Rich Pierce. Okay, just so you know anyway
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I'll be interested in hearing what people say I Recommended that if people are interested in this area that you read
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Justin's book because It was very helpful to me
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To hear the thoughts of someone in his situation And I'm sure he'll be hearing this but I had the opportunity of talking with someone at a church recently and I was already
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You know, I had already read torn once or twice by the time I had this conversation But recently on one of my trips,
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I talked with someone who is in a sound church church I was speaking at who has same -sex attraction and we spent hours talking about how you deal with that and what that means and How to approach the subject and and I'm glad I had that that opportunity
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It's look it's it's something a lot of us have just kept in a you know
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In a dark place. We just don't even want to think about that. It's we are much more comfortable talking with a fellow believer who struggles with pornography or struggles with you know lust for a you know, the woman that the co -worker at work or something like that or or You know anger or just all sorts of normal Temptations but to To talk with someone who has same -sex attraction
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That's tough for most of us to do because we just haven't thought through what that means or what it should mean or how to deal with it and One of the things that certainly is true is that if we have someone
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Who is not trying to change the Christian faith? and is not doing what the vast majority of homosexuals are doing is
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Demanding that we shut up that we stop talking about this that we celebrate
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Homosexuality if you have someone who says I'm same -sex attracted. I don't want to be
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I am repentant For any attitude before God that is outside of his perfect will for me including same -sex attraction itself which is disordered in Its orientation.
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It's a demonstration that I'm a fallen son or daughter of Adam If you have someone who is looking for help in living a godly celibate life
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Where can they go? Would would we be people who would encourage them or turn them away?
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That is really the question that we have to ask ourselves I have a feeling that there are going to be some people who are
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Going to Hear this debate and go that Obviously you have edited it you have changed it because James White does not have a heart therefore
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He could not have engaged in this debate in the first place There are people who believe that of course. They're not ever gonna listen to this
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I'm not gonna read anything that I've read. They're not gonna you know any of those things. This was not the Barry Lynn debate
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By any stretch of the imagination There there's gonna be no discussion of of texts
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I presented them I focused primarily upon first Corinthians chapter 6 and I emphasized you know had to ask the question
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What were you such were some of you? What does that mean? but Justin just did not want to go there and It made for a challenging evening for me
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Obviously that's that's not easy But that's what it was so that's what we had on Thursday night and then on Friday I Decided to do my
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New Testament reliability presentation in three parts, which means I could tell all my stories and You know go through it at a nice slow pace and everyone seemed to enjoy that and Then I took questions from the audience after the at the end of my third presentation and during that time
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I had I had encountered baby Gabriel and Since I am a frustrated
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Grandpa who has had his grandpa card revoked Once I saw little baby
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Gabriel who's only a month older than my granddaughter it was love at first sight and And so I was playing with him all the time.
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So during the Q &A period. I just went back and grabbed him and walked around answered questions carrying baby
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Gabriel who found the microphone to be fascinating and was trying to eat it which of course all babies at that age trying to eat everything and he just smiled and and Laughed and then they need seen my class ring and it was just like oh
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It's like it's reach grab head for the mouth That's just just at that age.
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That's just that's just all there is to it It's just nothing but it was it was there a couple little babies there a little
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John I got to hold a little bit too, but John was very serious. Very very serious. I always worried me like hmm
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He's very serious, I'm hoping he's not gonna start screaming here in a second if I'm holding but I got a lot of baby pictures taken while I was there and then
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Phil Johnson showed up and of course Chris Rosebaugh was there and and Chris and I are an interesting pair to have around, you know,
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I call him a Lutheran and We were on the same flight out on Sunday morning and But it was on United and so since I'm a
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US Airways frequent flyer Then I'm Star Alliance gold. And so I got to go in the special lane.
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And so we started this I'm special you're on the L list which you know could be
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Lutheran or it could just be loser one of the two and You know because I was I was on a plane before him and all the rest of stuff and then we got into Denver They did all sorts of weird stuff
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By As far as moving his flight around stuff, but mine was on time Also, so we're texting each other back and forth talking about what's like to be on the
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L list versus being special, you know So well, my special flight is going to be going out at a special time, which is on time and blah blah so we're we're having a fair amount of fun and going to dinner or lunch with With the pirate is quite interesting, too
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But I can't tell half the stories he told because we just weren't allowed to do that but anyhow and And Phil was around and I did speak on acts chapter 20
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Right at the right. He has had a good good time up there and then there are some pictures Which I will have to disavow floating around as of this morning of me allegedly holding certain pieces of Advanced weaponry
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That let's just say certain California senators would like to see banned But that haven't been yet and I don't think they'd ever get around to really actually doing that in Montana, but anyway
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So you can do fun stuff up in up in Montana as well so later today we will have that Justin Lee debate available and Just keep looking for it there on the on the blog and That'll be that'll be helpful
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Also, just a reminder. I need to get hold of Hasim son of Ramallah king of graphics to put together a
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Graphic for the South Africa trip, but we still need to hear from you You know pastor fry complained about that He said he went on the websites once it's all the one for England and just did not feel that was appropriate
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Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's I thought that was funny, but He doesn't think that's that's appropriate.
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So But we still need to raise funds to get down to yes, I have to tell you
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I'm absolutely shocked by that Why pastor fry was on the Internet? That was my response don't know how that happened but Need to get that up It's because we need to start looking at how we're gonna book flights.
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I don't know even what carrier to go on right now because Unfortunately the one that I need to go on US Airways obviously isn't gonna be flying from London to Johannesburg so normally like right now
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I would fly Star Alliance and I still get my miles But US Airways is merging with American American isn't
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Star Alliance. It's one world, which sounds very you know, Gail rippling or ask anyways and So what's gonna be like at the end of September?
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Which one do you which one you go on? I don't know. In fact right now. Nobody seems to know So we'll find out
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I don't I don't know will I be coming to Cape Town I doubt it.
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I don't know the first folks who contacted me down there are in charge of my schedule and I'm very thankful to Point out that the folks down there have said that they have had to turn down 80 % of the invitations that they have gotten
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So what that means is I could stay down there for a long time and What it also means is obviously
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I need to be thinking about returning again in 2014 as well So let's just hope the first trip goes well
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And then that could lay a foundation for doing more down there in in 2014 as well I think that would be great, but I have a shelf life when it comes to traveling
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After about 10 days, I'm probably get sick and then it's no use having me around anyways, and so That's just how it works, so I wish it was not that way
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But if you'd like to help us get to South Africa There is a link on the the last dividing line
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I think put up and we're gonna need to put up a banner ad so it's a little bit easier for people to find that And help us to get to South Africa Now I'm pretty sure they can in the store.
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Just search travel. Oh, okay, and that should pop up for them good Well, that'll help too. That's good
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I mentioned earlier this particular Commentary that was left on Turretin fans blog by someone using the
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Nick descriptive grace and I It just is absolutely amazing to me beyond amazing that folks who oppose
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Reformed theology can become so Absolutely, um, just just just so prejudiced so well bigoted that they overthrow all elements of Christian character as as I mentioned
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The This individual clearly and it admits has not read my book on the Quran and If he would have the courage of his convictions and call in here
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I Would imagine he would have to admit he's never read anything that I have written outside of maybe a blog article somewhere
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He's not read any of my books. He's not read letters to a Mormon elder he's not read the King James only controversy or any of these books and yet He can make accusations of Bigoted attacks on Christians Now those of you who've read the book on the
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Quran is are there any bigoted attacks on Christians in there? Of course not Half the information this long inaccurate because that's just how
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Jimmy rolls hmm So evidently all the information on the
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Trinity Would be Inaccurate in the book on the Trinity or justification by faith.
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See it doesn't even these folks don't even care If what they're saying is even semi close to the truth.
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The point is well you folks are
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Calvinists and If you're Calvinists then You must
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Be Well You're just liars, that's just the way you are and You engage in bigoted attacks on Christians and all the rest of stuff and you just have to go
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What what lies behind this it almost becomes a I Mean, I know how to describe it.
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But how do you what what leads to this?
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I Don't even understand, you know, I I know Some I've listened to some amazingly bad.
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We all have we've done Radio Free Geneva amazingly bad arguments against Reform Theology, but How many times have
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I pointed out that some of the people who attack Calvinism in other areas? Can do excellent work.
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I don't just automatically assume that well, there you go You you just must everything you do must be bigoted attacks just because I disagree with you
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The mindset of these folks is very similar to the cultic mindset of King James only as some people like that It's it it's it's amazing
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Yes, I can tell you that. I just listened to the lingo being used and I can think of at least two or three regularly regular emailers that we get you don't ever see them they just land in what we call the notes from nuts file and And but So -called
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Christians, this is their oh, yeah their way of Presenting themselves. I've said
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I've said many times that the nastiest stuff. I've I've ever seen are from people who call themselves
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Christians Who are either opposed to Calvinism or King James only us and sometimes those two things go hand in hand so you put the two of them together it gets really nasty, but and I'm talking about from atheists and and Mormons and Roman Catholics and Muslims and the whole realm of stuff nobody can can sling an insult as As much as those who call themselves
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Christians and so as I said, we we've got the phone lines open and they're still about 36 minutes left in the program today.
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So if whoever it is who will not sign their name Who says all
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I can do is erect straw men and knock them down and so on and so forth Then You know would like to provide some documentation by the way
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Phone lines are open phone lines are open and that's one phone call will take because we've got other things to talk about but Phone call the phone call would be great
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From the fellow with the with the Nick well, not the Nick but the the
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ID descriptive grace We'd like to see how gracious descriptive grace
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Actually actually is now a number of people sent me this link And if you're eating lunch right now,
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I would suggest you put your lunch down Or if you're about to eat this this probably won't help a lot, but a number of people sent me this link and This is this is from Anglican Inc, which is not a
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British tattoo parlor, but has something to do with the Anglican Church George Conger has written an article
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Diversity not Jesus saves says presiding bishop Presiding bishop of the
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Episcopal Church has denounced the Apostle Paul as mean -spirited and bigoted But having released a slave girl from demonic bondage as reported in Acts 16 16 through 34 in Her sermon delivered at All Saints Church in Curacao in the
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Diocese of Venezuela Bishop Catherine Jefferts shori Condemned those who did not share her views as enemies the
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Holy Spirit. I'm just reading it folks I I obviously do not believe for a for a moment that this woman is a bishop of the
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Christian Church but somehow she is a bishop in the Anglican Church presiding bishop
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Catherine Jefferts shori The presiding bishop opened her remarks an observation on the
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Dutch slave past the history of this place Tell us some tragic stories about the inability of some to see the beauty in other skin colors or the treasure of cultures
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They didn't value or understand. She said she continues stating human beings have long a long history of discounting and valuing difference
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Finding an offensive or even evil that kind of blindness is what leads to oppression slavery and often war
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Yet there remains a holier impulse in human life toward freedom dignity and the full flourishing of those who have been kept apart or on the margins of human communities
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Just as the forces of historical Inevitability lead to the end led to the ending of industrial slavery
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So too would the march of progress lead to a change in attitude toward homosexuality She argued we live with the continuing tension between holier impulses that encourage us to see the image of God in all human beings
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And the reality that some of us choose not to see that glimpse of the divine and instead use other people as means to an end
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We're seeing something similar right now and the changing attitudes and laws about same -sex Relationships as many people come to realize that different is not the same thing as wrong
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For many people it can be difficult to see God at work in the world around us, particularly if God is doing something unexpected
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To illustrate her point presiding bishop turned to the book of Acts noting There are some remarkable examples that kind of blindness in the readings we heard this morning and slavery is wrapped up in a lot
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Of it Paul is annoyed at the slave girl who keeps pursuing him telling the world that he and his companions are slaves of God She is quite right.
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She's telling the same truth Paul and others that claim for themselves Bishop Jefferts shorie said reference referencing the first chapter of the epistle to the
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Romans But Paul's annoyed perhaps for being put in his place And he responds by Detroit but depriving her of her gift of spiritual awareness
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Just just case you're let me stop here. Just case you're wondering he cast the demon out of her but but for Bishop shorie
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Paul deprived her of her gift of Spiritual awareness which might tell you where Bishop shorie is actually coming from and what's prompting her
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He cast the demon out of her and this is a bad thing. That's a bad thing. Yes, Paul can't abide something
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He won't see as beautiful or holy So he tries to destroy it it gets him thrown in prison.
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That's pretty much where he's put himself By his own rule own It's hard to read this by his own refusal to recognize that she too shares in God's nature
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Just as much as he does maybe more so the presiding bishop said
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I'm sorry It's either laugh or cry because I know some of the the last remaining
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Christian Anglicans, okay, and I just feel for anyone associated with the
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Anglican Church when you have an obvious non -christian apostate false teacher as a presiding bishop who is so Incapable of the most basic Level of exegesis of the text that it's just embarrassing on a level that's difficult to even begin to conceive.
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It's it's amazing I'm not even done yet The New Testament passage goes on to say that Paul and Silas were in prison for freeing the girl of her demonic possession
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Presiding Bishop noted an earthquake opens the doors and sets them free and now Paul and his friends most definitely discern the presence of God The jailer doesn't he thinks his end is at hand
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However, Paul now repents of his mistake in casting out the spirit of divination she argues
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This time Paul remembers who he is and that all his neighbors are reflections of God And he reaches out to his frightened captor this time
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Paul acts with compassion rather than annoyance And as a result the company of Jesus friends expands to include a whole new household
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It makes me wonder what would have happened to that slave girl if Paul had seen the Spirit of God in her
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In support her argument for radical inclusion diversity over doctrine Bishop Jefferts Shorry adds that the day's readings from Revelation pushes us in the same direction outward and away from our own self -righteousness
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Inviting us to look harder for God's gift and presence all around us Jesus says he's looking for everybody anyone who is looking for good news anybody who is thirsty There are no obstacles or barriers just barriers just come
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God is at work everywhere Even if we can't or won't see it immediately she concluded a sermon by stating that we are not justified by our faith but by our respect for diversity
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Let me let me let me reread that She conclude her sermon by saying that we are not justified by our faith, but by our respect for diversity
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Quote looking for the reflection of God's glory all around us means changing our lenses or letting the scales on our eyes fall away
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That kind of change isn't easy for everyone, but it's the only road to the kingdom of God end quote
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Salvation comes not from being cleansed of our sins by the atoning sacrificial death of Jesus Christ But through the divinization of humanity through the work of the human will quote we are here
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Among all the other creatures of God's creation to be transformed into the glory intended from the beginning The next time we feel the pain of that change perhaps instead of an annoyance or angry resentment
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We might pray for a new pair of glasses When resentment about difference or change builds up within us
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It's really an invitation to look inward for the wound that cries out for a healing dose of glory
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We'll find it in the strangeness of our neighbor Celebrate that difference for it's necessary for the healing of this world and know the wholeness
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We so crave lies and recognizing the glory of God's creative invitation God among us in human form is the most glorious act we know end quote responses post we've posted on the
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Episcopal Church's website the presiding bishop's sermon have been uniformly harsh
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Noting her interpretation was at odds with traditional Christian teaching grammar and logic
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This is quite possibly some of the most delusional exegesis ever read in my life one critic charged
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I'm sorry, but this sermon is not a Christian sermon end quote Amen The reception by bloggers has been equally unkind
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The Reverend Timothy Fountain Observed the presiding bishop had Upended the plain meaning of the text instead of liberation and freeing the slave girl from exploitation presiding bishop finds confinement instead of Christ's glory
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There is just squalor the Reverend Brian Owen argued quote what's happening here is the exploitation of a biblical text in service of a theological
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Agenda given what she says in the first paragraph I've quoted from her sermon the presiding bishop suggests that anyone who doesn't bind that agenda
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Anyone who holds to the traditional orthodox understanding of such matters is likewise afflicted with the same narrow -minded bigotry as Paul and thus in need of Enlightenment Wow oh
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My um and in light of that Was it not just yesterday the the
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Church of Scotland Capitulated on homosexuality and gay marriage
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State churches don't work too. Well not don't work too. Well. I think that has been illustrated over and over and over and over again
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Any uh any phone calls there from descriptive grace no descriptive grace hasn't given us call okay while I was in Montana I Think right before I headed to Montana.
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I saw a tweet From Scott Eric alt a convert to Romanism That church and fan, and I had reviewed some comments.
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He made his blog. I don't know sometime last year. I think it's been a while and It was about the lie, and it's and it is a lie
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There's no other way to put it that there are 33 ,000 or now Scott all has now decided that it's forty eight thousand five hundred
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Protestant denominations and counting Now he dismissed my reason my refutation which is
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Absolutely thorough I mean if you're gonna say African tribal religions Gnostics Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are due to soul scriptura and our quote -unquote
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Protestant nominations I can't talk to you because you are not a rational person you have abandoned all pretense to rationality
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I mean if you're if you're That mindset in service of Rome is cultic
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It is the same mindset that The Mormon missionary has when with glazed eyes.
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He just keeps repeating his testimony I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet. I know the Pope's the
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Pope so it doesn't matter That I'm obviously committing enough category errors in every sentence to be committed to a facility
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But I'm just gonna keep doing it because it's what Rome tells me to do that's cultic mr.
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Alt there is no reasoning with this It's it's it's absurd on a level that is beyond respectability it truly is yeah
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Joseph Smith is is really interested in soul scriptura as he's walking around with a Jupiter talisman in his pocket and a witching rod in His hand yeah, yeah, he's into that but but all those
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Mormon groups are part of the 33 ,000 and then he provides This believe or not he provides a
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Mathematical formula to attempt to explain How many denominations there are today now?
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I'm not even gonna bother responding to that foolishness other than one thing to you know to point one little simple thing out that he
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Didn't put into his Into his calculations have you noticed mr.. Alt?
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How many churches are closing these days I By the way, I've noticed a lot of Roman Catholic churches have closed in in Rome and of course
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I don't think he mentioned anywhere the fact that the same source talks about many Roman Catholic denominations
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Which of course he would reject there's only one one church union with the Pope, and you know it's that wide -eyed
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I'm a convert. I don't see the fact that there's all sorts of Fractures and and people teaching completely different things and what the
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Pope teaches and and when one Pope conducts I'm just I am a servant of the Pope.
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I do not see these things It's just it's just um it's the mind numbs on the approach. I do not respect the mind numbs on the approach
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I'd rather have someone who actually engages in thought, but mr. All have you noticed something have you noticed that there are churches closing?
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Have you noticed that there's the the church shrinkage movement has begun? Especially in Western culture so upon what logical level
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Would you say well, it's been it's been this constant increase in Protestant dominations since 1517 as if that's even the relevant date to use because that's historically naive but Believing in the papacy is historically naive so I guess being historically naive is just part of them part of the thing but And if you want to know how many pros and nominations there will be on October 31st 2017
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The date we will celebrate 500 glorious years of apostasy You'll be pleased to know that you can figure that as well on that glorious day the rebellion of Martin Luther will of birth as many
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As fifty fifty three thousand seventy five the nomination this fifty three thousand seven this is
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Absurd on a level that means there is no reason to ever talk about Scott Aldegan. He has completely
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Made himself unworthy of Anyone's even bothering and yet this is what slavery to Rome does it's just it's amazing
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Yeah, those African tribal groups and oh, then there's the Gnostics. Well, we'll lay them at your feet, too
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There's no reasoning with someone like that and that means his reasons for joining Rome are not rational that reasonable not respectable
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And we can just simply mark that one off as you've got to be kidding me
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But that is the case. You've got to be kidding me Scott all
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Writes an entire blog article just trying to defend the impossible, especially in light of the fact that anyone who looks at Rome and Goes and visits a
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Conservative Tridentine Roman Catholic Church and then goes and listens to what's being taught in the name of Roman Catholicism the
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Boston College Knows that the idea of unity there is absolutely irrational
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Absolutely irrational and if he can't see that then he's blind as a bat and clearly
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There's a lot of folks like that got to pray for him, but especially when they're apostates You know when they they've known the truth and then gone into error
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The honeymoon stage can be rough and can last for a long long time a long long time
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Anyway Still a phone calls him for many many years for many many years my biggest focus was upon the subject of Mormonism and I sort of miss that a little bit.
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I miss going out to the Easter page and I miss going out Going up to Salt Lake City every six months
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And I would not be averse to surprising the King James only us by by doing that again someday But I know that if I started to try to do so They'd show up again just for the fun of showing up just to be what they are
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I mean, that's just sort of how it works There are folks who continue to man the ramparts and do yeoman's work for many many many years
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The Salt Lake City messenger with Sandra Tanner Gerald and Sandra before Gerald's death
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Their book Mormonism shadow reality Just the gold standard not of typesetting but of research and and the like Very very important now, you know
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Bill McKeever and the guys I Frequently listened to some of Bill's podcasts.
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I mentioned I think last time I even talked about Mormonism now think about it was I had learned something
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I had not known about Mormonism that that second blessing that assures you all your sins have been forgiven and you're
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That was fascinating That was that was really really interesting and I forgot how long ago was we we briefly mentioned that But I came in yesterday and The May 2013
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Salt Lake City messenger was sitting on the break room table and Looks like I'm gonna need to get some new
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LDS scriptures. I mean, I've had the old 1981 for a long time But I I guess
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I need a new triple. I wonder if I can put that on the ministry I Think I could
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I think I could but I couldn't I couldn't get my name put on it that way I I didn't need to go back. I seem to track down where the
43:20
LDS bookstore is hiding these days Have you noticed it keeps moving north? It used to be at northern and 35th, and then it moved out to 59th and Greenway and who knows where in the world it is now.
43:33
It just keeps it's like it's just being drawn northward anyhow, I need to go by and Get a new triple combination so I can have the current edition.
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I don't want to be behind Should I have the opportunity of talking to some? Mormons and the title to the
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May 2013 Salt Lake City messenger is what's hidden in the new headings changes in the
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LDS scriptures and I found this interesting. I found this interesting because What has been put into?
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The headings and the descriptions of the Book of Mormon. Dr. Coats probably get price the
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Bible dictionary the topic guide the chapter headings all that kind of stuff is very very important It's really important.
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It does reflect You want to take some calls
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I Can probably get this done in about five minutes, so we might be able to sneak some in I'll have to fire up my the phones on this side
44:39
But yeah, if we've if if you want to do that we can we can do that I'll fire up the phone thing moving jobby
44:48
Robert Wow it looks really weird. Why does it look so weird? Oh, I know why it looks weird never mind. I know it looks weird, and it will still be functional anyways
44:58
Most interesting to me Were the changes in the introduction of the 1835 or I'm sorry to the book of Abraham now if I Don't have time to go over this right now, but The the book it's been out for years now called by his own hand upon papyrus from Institute religious research
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Remains utterly unrefuted. I mean Salt Lake has tried everything, but really so all
45:27
Salt Lake has is just don't listen to those people. They're bad people because on any rational level anybody who actually examines
45:36
Joseph Smith's claims examines the Egyptian alphabet and grammar examines the facsimiles in the book of Abraham Every more a missionary is carrying around in their backpack on their bicycle all you need to demonstrate that Joseph Smith was anything but a
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Prophet and the excuses that Salt Lake has developed That well
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Joseph really wasn't Translating anything here. Well. Yeah, yeah, we've always claimed that he was translating the book of Mormon But he wasn't
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Translating the book of Abraham because well we've actually found the original of the book of Abraham And we know what says now and no he didn't get a word right well
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He did get the word the right, but you see that was just because He translated one symbol
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Into an entire paragraph of English and the word the happened to be there, and so he got one word right
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But then he got like you know 58 other words wrong What They're trying to do is basically say that well what
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Joseph was really doing is he was receiving an inspired Revelation that really doesn't have anything to do with the original text now there is no way
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That you could read Joseph Smith and come to that conclusion never never never never never never it's irrational
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It's a historical Everybody with a smidgen of honesty that reads Joseph Smith's actual words knows what he meant
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He was not overly fluffy He said we said what he meant And he claimed to have translated these
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Egyptian characters by the gift and power of God the very same gift and power of God by Which he translated the book of Mormon from golden plates, which no one's ever seen because they didn't exist this all came out of his very fertile imagination
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And we've been saying that for a long time In the book of Abraham proves it really beyond any shadow of a doubt many many
47:38
Mormons have left the LDS Church once they found out about The book of Abraham as well.
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They should have unfortunately they frequently end up is just part of the great Religiously abused well anyway
47:52
What they have done is they have changed the introduction? To the book of Abraham to sort of try to grease the skids shall we say for this new kind of interpretation and So what you what you have is the 1981 introduction which is what
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I've always got I've got I've got a bunch of really nice In fact the quad I have over here is 81 and all the ones that my name on them all the 1981 editions because that's shortly after I started studying
48:24
Mormonism in 82 Originally said the book of Abraham a translation from some
48:31
Egyptian papyri that came into the hands of Joseph Smith in 1835 containing writings of the Patriarch Abraham That's the claim
48:40
If so these would have been some of the oldest papyri around Well, they would be the oldest papyri around by by any stretch of the imagination by a long shot the 2013 introduction to the pro -rate price reads the book of Abraham and Inspired translation of the writings of Abraham the difference that knows a translation from some
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Egyptian papyri 1981 to an inspired translation of the writings of Abraham Joseph Smith began the translation in 1935 after obtaining some
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Egyptian papyri It originally said well originally 1981 said containing writings of the
49:22
Patriarch Abraham And now it says after obtaining some Egyptian papyri So they're backing off on the claim that this has anything to do with a with with Abraham because everybody knows it that didn't this is
49:33
Just plain old first century Egyptian funerary documents and So now it's an inspired translation the spiritual thing you see and then the
49:49
The facsimiles the facsimiles are extremely embarrassing because of what they actually
49:57
Say But There's there's no way to fix this part unless they just remove it there really isn't there is there's no way to fix
50:09
This this amazing amount of stuff and is interesting speaking of the 2009 fair conference
50:16
LDS Egyptologist John Gee said how the book of Abraham was translated is unimportant
50:23
The church does not stand or fall on the book of Abraham nothing that and and next week
50:32
Next next week brother Gil is going to be taking Jay Carney's place What was the guy
50:40
Pfeiffer over the weekend irrelevant irrelevant irrelevant that's irrelevant where the president was irrelevant
50:46
What what Joseph Smith actually said irrelevant nothing to see here move along Paying attention by the way while you're on this
50:53
I was just want to say if if our reader or listeners our readers Well, this is about reading if you go to our website
51:00
There's a little search button up top there and type in the letters M. I n yeah, and it's not a man
51:07
Min, oh, it's not man is not God min min. Yeah, am I n yes?
51:13
Alright and hit search the very first item that's going to come up in that search is our min is not
51:18
God tracked, right? replete with pictures and everything and You might want to brace yourself.
51:26
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, it's it's it's my favorite G -rated my favorite track to pass out to folks
51:32
Up there in Salt Lake especially during the time when all those little priests before the priesthood meeting on Saturday afternoon are in line wrapped around used to be wrapped around This is what was fun before the the big meeting hall was back when they still met in the tabernacle they would wrap around that entire block and we start the back of the line and We would wipe out boxes of tracks explain why we started at the back of the easy you
52:01
But start the back line because we started the front of the line Then they see you coming and once they see other people reject your tracks
52:07
Then they feel pressure to do so, but if you come from behind They don't see other people rejecting the tracks and therefore you
52:13
I don't know what twice three times as many tracks as if you did Oh, yeah, absolutely and the conversations.
52:19
Oh, no, these guys are bored. Oh, they're bored. They're standing at nothing to do I mean we've we've driven off in that place more than once and driven around Temple Square and they're
52:27
All the way around all these young guys. He's a reading min is not God. It's it's great.
52:33
Oh, it's wonderful Anyways, all right, we did I did say we'd take a phone call
52:38
So let's we've why don't we you know, at least I can remember when I blog this one What what topics we covered because I had have written down so that's so it's been a wild one but we're gonna take a phone call to real quick here and we got a few minutes, but let's talk with Rick in a state that I shall not mention because it makes me sad
52:59
Well, dr. White always find your political and cultural commentary quite scintillating
53:06
What I say now, but anyway Well the Jay Carney stuff. Oh, well, I thought that was extremely appropriate and direct parallel Yeah, just real quick I Guess this is a little bit related a little bit unrelated to what we've been talking about But I have some family members who
53:29
I'd say they come from more of the or many Backgrounds and I've been reading recently and Phillip Schaaf's history of the
53:38
Christian Church and I guess so regarding the Pelagian controversy and to me it seems like I Don't know.
53:49
Well, it's not exactly the same there seem to be some similarities from my reading the concept of pervenient grace
53:56
Mm -hmm, and the I guess sort of plagiarism of grace
54:03
Those were if you can maybe just comment a little bit on I guess the nature of you know, grace and Maybe a little bit of historical background on plagiarism
54:14
Well, obviously Pelagius himself at least full -blown Pelagianism denies the necessity of grace and and therefore
54:23
Has the idea that each man's born as a new Adam that grace is not necessary for submission to God's will etc, etc
54:31
That's very different than the Wesleyan prevenient grace concept which while people
54:39
Assume it right left and center. I've yet to see anyone actually provide any evidence of a
54:46
Grace that comes from God that is not intended to save but is intended to help someone save themselves
54:56
Prevenient grace is more of the idea of God's being gracious to all men so that the way it functions anyways in Wesleyan and some
55:08
Arminian Understandings is it prevenient grace brings us to the point?
55:14
Where we are able to make a free will choice and then
55:23
But no further in other words it it cannot save it is it is the essence of synergistic
55:31
Soteriology in that it's it's necessary. They don't want to say that they don't want to go with full -blown
55:37
Pelagianism and say well sure we don't need grace, but we need prevenient grace
55:42
But prevenient grace has to be resistible prevenient grace has to be something that's while necessary is resistible
55:48
So that room can be left for the autonomy of the human will and that's why we look at Rome and say well
55:54
Rome is semi -pelagian That is you know the Council of Trent anathematized anyone who would say it could be saved without God's grace
56:05
But the point of synergism is While grace is necessary Grace cannot be sufficient to save because if it is both necessary and sufficient
56:16
Then salvation is all of the Lord it is not of man and therefore all the sacramental systems and everything else that require man's cooperation go out the door and that's how
56:26
Rome controls her people is through the systems of sacraments and so Synergism as a as a whole
56:34
You can you can have? non sacramental synergists but all that means is
56:42
The things they may eschew Rome's Sacraments, but they end up creating a whole set of their own anyways
56:48
They may be very plain the Church of Christ for example very semi -pelagian very synergistic and for them obviously acts 238 and baptism and musical instruments things like that become the sacramental issues, but But the the difference always is and it was the issue of the
57:07
Reformation Between the necessity of grace and the sufficiency of grace and everybody even the
57:13
Mormons say that grace is necessary But the dividing line and a good way to wrap up the program today the dividing line is
57:23
Whether you believe that grace is actually sufficient that is is God's saving grace
57:29
Powerful enough to accomplish what he intends it to accomplish which is the salvation of his elect people or is it not and That really is has been the dividing line all along There have been times in church history when it was clearly not
57:43
Seen as a central issue and those were normally times of great confusion and doctrinal unclarity as well
57:51
So hopefully that's a little bit helpful there Rick in the state of my great sadness
57:56
So anyways, thanks for calling Rick Maybe sometime we'll get a chance to go out there and say hello to you folks.
58:02
But but you know, thanks for calling Dave Thank you. All right. Thanks for listening to the dividing line today as far as I know everything's straightforward for Thursday of this week so Lord willing we'll be back
58:18
Who knows what will happen between now and then that will give us something to be? Talking about and hopefully doing so in light of God's truth.
58:25
Thanks for listening. God bless I Believe we're standing at the crossroads
58:37
Let this moment of slip away We must contend for the faith above us fought for we need a new
58:45
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