WWUTT 490 Q&A Lifestyle Goals Podcasting Church?

Generational Curses, Sanctification, and the Power of the Gospel

How do you confront your church when they start accepting sinful lifestyles? What are some good goals that you can set for your church? And why is it that the Church of Christ doesn't use musical instruments?

The answers to these questions when we understand the text.

Approaching two years, 500 episodes, and 500 ,000 listens. This is when we understand the text. Thank you for listening and tell your friends about our daily Bible teaching podcast at www .wutt .com. Now here's your host, Pastor Gabe.

Thank you, my dear.

You're welcome. And as we're approaching two years as a podcast, you and I just celebrated an anniversary. That's right. We got married on August the 1st and didn't really get to spend a whole lot of time together on August 1st this year.

No. No. And on our wedding, we did. Yes. Actually, I don't know. We probably didn't that day either. We made comments at the end of that day like, let's never do this again. Ever. We should have just eloped.

This was too much. That was a ridiculously busy day. It was.

That's how that day was. If we ever renew our vows, we're eloping that part.

Nobody else come to our vow renewal. We're going to do that in an eloping manner. So in good keeping with that tradition, we didn't spend a lot of time together on August 1st. That's right. Very true.

But I don't need that day to express my appreciation for this woman and everything she does for me and for our children, for I am grateful to you every day for all that you do. And you show it so well.

Oh, thank you. I'm glad. I'm glad that works, that it's apparent that I show that. You do. So we've got, well, this being Friday, we've got questions from the listeners, which we respond to on the Friday edition of the broadcast.

And you can submit questions by email to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com. This one was delivered to Becky from Psalm Girl 119. Yes. And this is in regards to something that we talked about on last week's episode.

She says, Dear Becky, I just had the pleasure of listening to the latest Friday podcast. Thank you. And thank you for pointing out that the need to seek spiritual anointing or do something to remove a curse on your life from your father's sin is mere spiritual superstition.

I'd never quite seen it that clearly before. I have many friends and family who believe that they have to reverse things like God's curse on their families because of someone's sin. Even getting saved isn't enough to release them from the curse in their theology.

It was a great reminder that we make too much about spirituality and not enough about sanctification. Keep up the great work. Yeah. And I believe that was your comment, too, that you made it. You summarized it nicely by saying that this is all just superstition.

It really is. That if a parent has done something or a grandparent or great grandparent, your family line is not cursed because of what it is that they have done. Right. And therefore needing to get some kind of anointing or counsel or an exorcist.

Yes. To relieve you of the curse of the sins of your fathers and grandfathers and whatnot. But I think it goes without saying, especially in the context of what we've been reading in First and Second Kings, that the sins that are committed by our parents, grandparents or whatever definitely have an effect.

Definitely. I don't mean to say that that doesn't influence the generations that follow, because we just read here in First Kings chapter 22 at the conclusion. And we've read this over and over again.

When one king dies and another succeeds, especially in the northern kingdom, in the kingdom of Israel, you would have that the next king that follows. So this is Ahaziah after Ahaz died. First Kings or Ahab rather.

First Kings 22, beginning in verse 52, Ahaziah did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and walked in the way of his father and in the way of his mother and in the way of Jeroboam, the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin.

He served Baal and worshipped him and provoked the Lord, the God of Israel, to anger in every way that his father had done. But when we read there in verse 52 that Jeroboam made Israel to sin, it's not because Jeroboam sinned, so therefore the rest of Israel was cursed to sin, because Jeroboam was the influence or the example that the rest of Israel followed.

And so whether you agree with them or not, they're still an example.

And so this is the way it works in the family as well. So you take this out of a national context and you put it in the scope of a family. The father has an influence on his sons. Right. And more often than not, and we hear the statistics about this, that a father who was abusive or was an alcoholic, their children are probably going to repeat the same things that their father did.

Right. More often than not. So how do you break that pattern? You break it by being obedient to the Lord. Right. I mean, it just goes to show the power of the gospel. How the gospel can transform and change a family, can remove you from the pattern of sin that exists in family lineages.

Amen. The gospel has the power to save, has the power to restore and heal. And so turn from your sin, believe the gospel, and you escape those so-called generational curses. It's relieving. I think that the metanarrative throughout the Old Testament just goes to show how evil mankind is.

I really don't think how anybody can call themselves a theologian and think that mankind is basically good. Because we're seeing that, especially in first and second kings, how kings are just wicked and evil, and then their sons continue to do the same things that they did, especially in Israel.

I mean, this kind of is a spoiler, but every king that's going to succeed the throne in Israel will be an evil, wicked king. Yeah. And we only have a few righteous ones in Judah. So anyway, so I appreciate that, Psalm Girl 119, and I hope that that is an encouragement to anyone else.

Do not feel that you are being burdened by the sins of your fathers. The gospel has great power as it is working to deliver you from sin and also to grow you in sanctification, holiness, and righteousness.

Be obedient to the Lord and fear nothing of anything that your ancestors have done. Yes. All right, next question. This one comes from Nick, and he says, Dear Pastor Gabe, I have been greatly helped by your careful consideration of others' questions and insight into the biblical responses that you've had to their questions.

As such, I am hoping that you will have time to look into a question of my own and respond either by email or via the podcast, which we're doing right here. My question is this. I currently attend a church where there is a plurality of elders, the majority of which are women.

Guest speakers who are women are also welcomed on a frequent basis, and the denomination which the church is part of is currently on the edge of accepting those of the LGBTQ lifestyle choice into full membership and leadership roles.

Now, before I even got to this part, I was already going, leave your church. If you have a majority of your elders are women, that's enough reason to to leave and look for another church. My pastor advised to not become members of the church body until this decision had been made whether or not they were going to accept LGBTQ leaders and is also in full agreement with women in leadership and preaching from the pulpit.

But from this standpoint, it seems impossible to seek reform to to reform the church to a biblical standard. Would it be wise to continue attending this expression of Christ's body or to seek a church which holds to the word of God more tightly?

Thank you for your prayerful response and may God continue to bless you in your calling as pastor, husband and father. You know, I'm I'm very much a Puritan in the sense that as much as you can try to tough it out and bring reform to the church body that you're a part of.

But in this case, Nick, I would say, leave your church and go find another. And I really don't have anything to add other than that. I think that for them, pray for them. Absolutely. Talk to some other people that would be willing to listen to you and encourage them to leave as well.

But if if there just does not seem to be and you would know, I think with discerning, you.

Can recognize and you obviously have talked to your pastor about it to go to the elders and talk with them about it. But when just up and leave, you got to explain when the majority of elders are women.

I mean, it kind of it kind of reveals the direction the church is going anyway. I mean, this is a clear disobedience of a biblical command. A woman is not supposed to have authority over men in the church.

First Timothy to twelve pastors, elders, overseers are supposed to be men. And that's not open to reinterpretation. When a church believes that the sexes aren't important, rejecting that God made men and women unique and four different roles that blurs the gender distinctions and sets them on a trajectory to exchange natural relations for those that are contrary to nature and sinful lifestyles like homosexuality are not only accepted, they are promoted.

There's no such thing as LGBTQ people. They are given over to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. And this does not happen overnight. This has been a slow fade to get to this point. So I think it's pretty evident and clear your church is not going to repent and you should leave and go elsewhere.

But again, and I think Becky pointed that out. You do need to talk to your pastor, talk to those elders before you pull out, even in an instance such as this, where it's pretty evident. I don't think anything is going to change.

You still need to talk to them because you never know. Even somebody among that eldership panel, the Holy Spirit can work in and turn them from this progression of sinfulness to reevaluating their actions and needing to repent and come to Christ.

And maybe even searching the Bible for that information.

Present them with scriptures, right? Don't just come to this as a difference of opinion, but presenting the gospel to them. And even if you do not see a change currently, maybe this would influence a change in the future as they continue to consider the words that you've brought to them.

Right. Michelle Leslie just published an article that I thought was really good. What is Michelle Leslie's website again? Do you remember? MichelleLeslieBooks .com. Oh, okay. I couldn't remember if it was that or Michelle Leslie writes, but anyway, MichelleLeslieBooks .com is the website to go to.

She just published an article. It was actually a reposting of an article she did a couple of years ago about why it's so important for you to find a good church. In fact, it's so important that if you have to move, you should.

Right. And I agree. I think that having a good church, a good sound biblical teaching church is that important. Okay. Next question comes from Brett in Hutchinson, Minnesota. And when I first read that, because the church that Brett says that he's a part of is a church in Hutchinson, Kansas.

So when he said he was from Hutchinson, I was like, oh my goodness, this is from that church. I know some guys there. And then no, it was a different state. But anyway, so Brett says the following, Pastor Gabe, thank you for your ministry.

I've enjoyed the videos myself and I've shared them in my high school Sunday school class. As a member of my church's elder board, I have a role in our long range planning activities, seeing the usual vision casting methods as inferior and spiritually unhealthy.

I want to influence our board with a positive and biblical approach. I'm tired of the usual goal setting for how many people get saved, increasing attendance numbers, et cetera, and want to focus on things like being faithful to the role of the church.

But how do you set goals for something as intangible as faithfulness? And isn't there a certain amount of practical, tangible goal setting that actually is healthy and appropriate to provide motivation and to reflect how our congregation fits in our community?

Do you have any recommendations for resources that provide a good framework for setting practical goals for a local church? Well, Brett, if you haven't read it yet, I definitely would encourage you to read Nine Marks of a Healthy Church by Mark Dever.

Now, that seems like he's setting some intangible goals, but there are some tangible things that are mentioned in that book. So you have the Nine Marks of a Healthy Church, but then reading between the lines, he's got other things that you can set forth as a church for goals.

And if it's something that you want to provide for your church members, and maybe Nine Marks of a Healthy Church is a little bulky for a read, there's the shorter version of that, which is what is a healthy church.

I can see it from right here. There it is on my shelf, and it's less than 30 ,000 words. It's a pretty short book. It's basically the CliffsNotes version of Nine Marks of a Healthy Church. So grab the little book from Nine Marks called What is a Healthy Church and distribute it among members or among the elder board and have them take a look at it, because it'll give you some ideas and some things to look toward regarding some goals that you can set.

So let me provide for you some basic things. And we've all gone through this in our church and still going through this. So I've been there for seven years. And from the moment I took over as the senior pastor, the very first meeting we had, less than a week after I was voted in as the senior pastor, was sitting down and going, okay, it's time to reevaluate our constitution.

It's time to consider plurality, eldership, and reevaluating a lot of things that we were doing as a church. So here's four things to lay out for you clearly. You must preach the full counsel of God, which means expository preaching.

I think that that is something that as a church, you should move toward if you haven't already. Disciple and discipline your church. Care for your widows and the less fortunate in your church. Showing love among the body of believers.

And evangelize in your community. So those four things again, preach the full counsel of God, disciple and discipline your church, care for your widows and less fortunate, evangelize in your community, which is a responsibility of all the church.

So there's four main staples that you can move toward. Right. Now, as for setting goals, here's a few ideas. And babe, chime in on this if something pops into your head too, because maybe there's something that we've done that didn't come to mind.

Get rid of your altar call. That's what baptism is for. Don't need it anyway. That's a goal to set. So maybe not everybody's on board with that right away, but it's something to move toward as a church, getting rid of the altar call and the sinner's prayer.

Prioritize the Lord's Supper. So decide this is when we're going to do the Lord's Supper. It's going to be every Sunday or once a month. It's going to be the first Sunday of the month. Make it a priority that this is going to be the day where we as a body of believers are going to gather around this table.

So re-evaluating the constitution. I mentioned that we did that as a church. Yes. That's something else that you might need to consider. Trimming the budget. Yes. Take care of all those unnecessary things that you don't need to be spending money on.

Trimming the membership roster. Yes. Get rid of that inactive list.

I think we have a unique situation with that though, because we are military. Right. And so the military is constantly coming and going and coming and going. Yeah. And so our membership was ridiculously large.

So something that we would do is whenever a new family would come in, they'd be with us for a few months. They would decide to pledge membership, and then the husband would deploy. Right. And the wife, generally, if she was a younger wife, didn't have a lot of kids, she would go back home to be with her parents.

Or even if she was pregnant, because she wouldn't want to have the baby alone. Right. So she would go home to be with family. And then it would be... Which totally makes sense. Right. It would be nine months to a year before we'd see them again.

Right. But they're still part of the membership. And we know that. We know they're gone, but they're on our list to be praying for them. They're still receiving the updates of the church. But you need to come up with a system of, if a person has not been seen for a certain period of time, are you calling them?

Are you contacting them? Right. Are they responding to you? Have you even gone to their house to see what has happened to them? And if they will continue to not respond, have a formal letter that you will send to them and say, look, you've broken fellowship with this body.

We've not seen you. We don't know what's happened to you. And so we've removed you from our membership roster. Maybe send a letter out first to give warning and then follow that up with, we have not heard from you, so you've been removed.

Yeah. Because you have some people, especially within the Baptist denomination, who will think that because they've pledged membership to a church, they're always a member of that church.

Oh, yeah. It's weird how they come out of the woodwork some days.

This has happened before where somebody who pledged membership to the church a decade ago. Or more. When I wasn't even there. Yeah. Will suddenly resurface and say, you know, I've had some health problems and some things, and I was hoping the church could help me out.

Because I'm a member here. Because I'm a member here. They do. I'm going, I don't have any idea who you are. Yeah. So, and they probably were removed from our roster when we did the whole whittling down and that whole thing.

So, anyway, all of that, I think, is necessary for a church to do.

And also, you could be finding out that they're in a trouble spot and they're just embarrassed to come get help. And so that would be the opportunity to not, like, impose yourself necessarily, but be able to, oh, okay, I see you have this need.

We didn't know. We didn't know.

Let's help out. It's also an evangelism opportunity. It is. Because somebody becomes apostate and slides away. And so as you're trying to reevaluate your membership roster and reaching out to those people, finding out, boy, they've really fallen into sin.

Yeah. And you might have an opportunity here, like in James 5, of turning them from that sin and rescuing them from the pit. Right. And so, anyway. You never know. That's a great goal to set, though. Yes.

Considering your membership roster and who has not been seen for a while, who you need to reach out to. Church planting, I think, is always a good goal for any church. Yes. Even always having it on your mind, like in the talking phases, at least, even if you've not budgeted for it or you're not raising up new pastors and elders for it.

But you're talking about it. We want to plant a church somewhere and make that one of your goals. Always be in conversation about that. Whether it's planting another church in the very city that you're in, another nearby town that doesn't have a church of your denomination.

I would say if there is a church of that denomination in the other town, don't try to go where somebody else has already planted. Right. There are plenty of other places that probably need a church like yours.

Sending missionaries abroad. Yes. Another goal to set. Raising up new pastors and elders. I kind of mentioned that. But training up new men to be ministers and shepherds in the church. Yes. Mentoring.

So, older men mentoring the younger men, older women mentoring the younger women. The Titus II format of mentorship that we are given. And church maintenance. Maintaining the building. Oh, yes.

Taking care of problem areas. Doing reconstruction. I mean. Encourage the other 80 that is not participating in that. That's right. To help participate even a little bit here and there.

Especially when if a person's gift might not be teaching, they certainly have the hands to serve. Oh, yes. And so, this is another way that the church is able to come together and grow together is when you're working together on the building that God has given you to take care of.

And even if they can't paint, they can paint the first coat. That doesn't matter. Which is my problem, by the way.

Not a painter. And here's another one. This was the first thing I did when I got to First Southern Baptist Church. Day one on the job. I went and found the bookshelves and cleared off all the heresy books.

Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen. I even threw away some Rick Warren books, not knowing at the time that the pastor was a real big Rick Warren guy. Yeah, that became a problem later on. But anyway, clearing the shelves of bad books.

Find the bad doctrine stuff in your church. Get rid of it.

And the old stuff, too. Like the fallen apart Bibles and things like that.

Yeah, by the way, you can throw a Bible away. That is okay. You're not committing some sort of...

You might want to double check with your congregation that it's okay to get rid of some hymnals. But some of them are their favorites. The ones that have been established for a while.

Hey, we still have the 1973, I think it was, edition of the Baptist hymnal downstairs. I'm not interested in getting rid of those.

Yeah, that's a great piece of history. Yeah, there's some pretty nice ones down there.

So anyway, so I hope that that provides for you some goals. And yeah, some tangible things. There are things to reevaluate, reconsider within your building, within the structure, within leadership. And evangelism, by the way, is something the whole church is involved in doing.

Yes. Let the elders set the example. But every member of the church should be involved or passionate about sharing the gospel in the community. Even if it's handing out tracts or something like that. All right, this next question comes from Sly.

He says, Dear Pastor Gabe, thank you for your podcast and video ministry. They have been both edifying to me and my friends who love God and want good, solid biblical teaching. Also, I have a few friends kind of mad at me because some videos hit at some core things that we were taught for years, like the tithing video.

And some of the reactions were, in my opinion, less than Christian. I'm not so innocent myself and had to make apologies. This was a few years ago. But we had some good discussions and it helped push us towards the word.

Well, I appreciate that. And Sly, some of these things that I brought up in the what videos had to tear my soul up first before. Definitely. Before I made the video and tore up somebody else's heart. My question is, what would you say to someone who wanted to start a podcast?

I would think the same qualifications of a pastor in the Bible would still apply since you would be teaching and in a way shepherding those who listen. Are there some things that don't apply? How would one prepare to start that type of ministry?

I'm not so worried about the technical side of things. I want to help a friend of mine with his podcast. If he ever starts. We've both delayed because of personal and more important spiritual issues. I want to be overseen by a pastor or group of elders to help us.

And if it's necessary, tell us to knock it off or stop. Keep up the good work and God bless his hand on your family. Sly PS, do you still need book donations for the library? Sure. Yes.

We'll still take donations. Yes. Especially since we moved it to a bigger room. That's right. We did.

We moved it to a large. Not that we still have the same need for books that we had when it was in the smaller room. We did. But we moved it into a bigger room so there can be a table and chairs and stuff like that in there.

Sly, I think you covered it for the most part. You do have to have your eldership aware that you're doing this. I really have a problem with people who do this anonymously online. I cannot endorse another podcast.

If I know that the person who's doing the podcast is trying to keep their name a secret and even the members of their church don't know that they're doing that, kind of find that as a little bit of a problem.

So the things that you are saying and you are doing on your podcast need to have eldership authority. You're still subject to your elders, to your leaders in your church, even in the stuff that you do online.

Now, I know that there are some folks who because of their job or occupation don't want to release their name on the internet. That's a totally different matter. When it comes to teaching, if you're gonna have a podcast, you should be willing to put your name on what it is that you're talking about so that there's no sort of presenting yourself without any kind of accountability towards some of the things that you're saying.

Okay, so did I explain that well?

Maybe a little bit more as to why it's important, like the Bible says.

So I would say very simply, we've got the passage in 1 Peter 5, be subject to your elders. Also in 1 Thessalonians 5, beginning in verse 12, we ask you brothers to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work, be at peace among yourselves.

You also have the statement of Jesus in John 3 that if we are in the light, we need to walk in the light. And of course that comes up again also in 1 John 1 7, if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus, his son cleanses us from all sin.

So the question I would wanna put to you for those who wanna do an anonymous podcast is why are you doing that? What biblical basis do you have for doing a Bible teaching podcast that the elders of your church don't know about?

See, I would say that that's a division in your church, that there is something that your teachers can't know about and the rest of the members of the church can't know about when we're told in 1 John 1 that walking in the light means that we have fellowship with one another.

Right. And so anyway, does that explain it a little bit better, I think? Yes. That was good because I wasn't providing biblical basis for that. So you were holding me to that. Thank you. Thanks for that.

So anyway, Sly, I hope that that's helped you out with that a little bit. Make sure your elders know about it. Whatever topic you decide to do or whatever theme you're going to follow with your program, just do all things to the glory of God.

Make sure that it's biblically sound, that you're giving God the glory in all of this. It's not about you, but the edification of the fellowship of the saints. And last question here comes from Chris in Tennessee.

He says, Hey, Pastor Gabe, I hope things are going well for you and Becky. I first found you by the what videos on YouTube and have since been listening to your podcast. I especially look forward to Thursday with the Old Testament program.

I think that's the first email I've gotten that said they like the Thursday better than anything else. That's awesome. But thanks. Appreciate it, Chris. I'm emailing you because I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine about whether or not musical instruments are permitted in worship.

He's a member of the church of Christ. I would have figured that and takes the stance that they are not, that instruments are not permitted in worship. Since the New Testament does not mention them and gives us an example of worship in Ephesians 517.

Therefore, do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is and do not get drunk with wine for that is debauchery, but be filled with the spirit, addressing one another in Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

I pointed out that there is nothing in the New Testament that condemns their use or changes, as far as I'm aware, their ability to be used in worship. There was much more to the conversation. I think it went on for around two hours, but I want to keep the email as brief as possible.

What are your thoughts on this subject? I would greatly appreciate any help that you can provide. Thank you for the help. Well, the reason why the church of Christ doesn't use musical instruments is not just because the New Testament doesn't mention it.

They believe that Christ changed the practice that happens in the church from the way things were practiced in the temple. So just like we don't do animal sacrifices anymore, there are also not musical instruments in the church.

So this is about a progression of new covenant in the way that we're supposed to worship together as the body of Christ, which is not supposed to include musical instruments. Whereas there were trumpets and tambourines and drums and all other kinds of things that are mentioned in the Psalms.

So if you're ever trying to contest with somebody who's part of the church of Christ and saying, well, trumpets are mentioned in the Psalms, that argument won't work because they believe, well, we're not supposed to worship.

Of course, that was the Old Testament. Right, I think honestly that this is just a matter of immaturity. The Amish also believe certain things based on what doesn't appear in the New Testament. So like to give you an example, well, we don't have zippers on our clothes because zippers aren't in the New Testament.

You know, it'd be something like that. Yeah. This is a matter of creating a doctrine because of omission. If something's not mentioned in the New Testament, therefore we're not supposed to do it. Right.

So this is how the church of Christ has developed that kind of theology. And like I said, I think it's just a matter of immaturity on their part. When it comes to contesting against what the church of Christ teaches, that's really a very insignificant doctrine.

What concerns me more is the fact that they think that you need to be baptized in order to be saved. So that would be a point of contention. Definitely. Then this whole thing about musical instruments that can be left alone, whatever.

I mean, we don't always sing songs with musical instruments in our church. Sometimes we do choruses a cappella. So that's just kind of to each their own. I like Phil Johnson's take on music in the church.

Every church should do every style so everybody can be equally annoyed. We need some rap. Right. Break out the hairband. We'll do an 80s hairband praise and worship session. Here we go.

So anyway. And I don't have anything against any type of music. I was just pointing out one that we don't do.

I really, I don't think I've ever heard a hip hop like praise and worship. Somebody told me there was one at the village church one time. Somebody came and actually sang a rap song, did a rap song for worship and everybody was involved.

I don't know. I never saw the video on that. But that would be interesting. Apparently that was a thing. You couldn't do like the fast rap. Nobody be able to keep up. Be like the DC talk. The other night I met a girl and she looked at me so nice.

I asked her for the digits and she didn't think twice. A couple of days later, call her up and ask her out. She said, with you? I said, with me? And then she said, without a doubt. Anyway, you know what I'm talking about?

Yes. But I think you should do that again. That was awesome. I took her to a garden where I guess they grow the olives. She wore a tighter skirt than any I had seen in college. She said, I love to smoke and drink while cursing like a sailor.

I asked her where she got her mouth and if she had a tailor. Finally, I walked her to the door to say good night. She said, I am an apple. Would you care to take a bite? But lately I refuse and said, I'm looking for a lady.

So she slapped me in my face and said, boy, you must be crazy. Not a rapper. I'm too white. I love it. But anyway. I should have had that on video. There's my 90s throwback right there. To my contemporary Christian music days.

You know, we could set up like a whole dividing line sort of thing in here. Like James White does. We have a camera over here. No.

No. Just a camera on you would be fine. I don't do anything that's hilarious. I swear.

I think on that note, we're going to wrap up. All right. Let us pray and we will be dismissed. Dear Lord, we thank you so much for your word and the guidance that is offered here. And I pray that in all things that we do, when it comes to the practice of worship in the church of God, ultimately, this is about giving glory to you.

May we be of benefit to one another. We're not thinking about our own personal interests or biases in the church, but we're wanting to do all things for God's glory and for the building up and edification of the saints.