TiL- Pastoral Ordination, Presbyterian RPCNA #ordain #pastors

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Rob will be interviewing Dan and learning what the Presbyterian process looks like for ordination of a pastor.

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Welcome to the truth and love podcast. Thank you for watching. Hope you'll stick with us tonight
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We are continuing our series on pastoral ordination. We are in a branch of the
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Presbyterian Church the RPCNA and we'll discuss what that is coming up I Was going down Fantastic.
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How are you doing? I'm doing good doing good Glad to be back with you, and I'm I'm really excited about this series
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The more it goes on the more we look into it and as we were praying just a few minutes ago
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We split it off it's a many denominations and It's been that way since the beginning of church.
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It seems like but but mostly if you look at church history the beginning of the church, it was geographical and then it also became creedal or Doctrinal on how
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Think how groups formed and and stuck together based on doctrinal beliefs and and And whatnot so it's it's interesting where where we come from and and how we've got to where we are and We're gonna be looking at pastoral ordination in different denominations
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But it's not so much a pastoral or denominational survey So what does this denomination believe?
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What does that denomination believe? For me what I'm hoping is that all of us have gleaned from Scripture what
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God? Has wanted us to know and has wanted us to practice and maybe some more than others but we want to look at ultimately what
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Scripture says we should be doing and and how each denomination has had looks at Scripture and Pulls from Scripture what they believe
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God is is saying this this is what polity looks like This is what leadership looks like. This is how you should ordain men for leadership
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And I think we can learn a lot from each other and our practices What did you think about the conversation we had with Pastor Jonathan Foster from Vertical Life Church?
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No, it was it was good. It was good to see a Baptist perspective at least one Baptist perspective Apparently there's about as many
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Baptist perspectives as there are Baptists Maybe yeah, well,
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I think we would get a different explanation to a degree If we had a different episode with different Baptists on each episode
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That's just the nature of Baptists. Yeah. Well, I mean you've got different types. You've got your fundamental Baptist your regular independent
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Baptist your You know mainline American Baptists and your
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Southern Baptists of different stripes really Yeah, each one of them coming from a slightly different perspective
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You get a bunch but you get that in the Presbyterians to you got the PC USA and you know
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The rest of us. No, there's other ones out there What one weakness that I saw that we brought out in in the
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Baptist? Process of ordination is Is also
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I guess some some could consider a strength. It's the it's the autonomy and then the ordination board or committee
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It's it's just it's up to them on what questions they want to ask. There's there's really no no guidelines or boundaries that that anybody necessarily has to follow and so you have the potential of Good and bad men behind the pulpit and serving in the pastor
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Yeah, the lack of due diligence, which I'm not going to judge the sincerity of any committee
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But that doesn't mean that they didn't do their due diligence. They could have done a better job And just what they had to work with Just from Experiential evidence in my life and what
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I've seen Yeah yeah, it's it's a that practical question between Baptists and Presbyterians and it really
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Anglicans or any sort of Episcopal government where No, do you?
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Do you run a risk of having your denomination go sideways quickly potentially by no a
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Presbytery making rules and affecting all the churches or the The Baptist way where if one goes errant you just kind of kick them off to the side and You're on your own and you just lose one instead of a whole denomination, you know, we saw
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No, the PC USA turned turned sideways the United Presbyterians up here in the north and I Mean, that's how the the whole the
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Orthodox Presbyterian Church got started. It was a split off from From them when the old
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Princeton Seminary was starting to head off into liberalism The fellows left and started the
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Westminster Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia and then no the
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OPC came out of it. So it's a yeah, it's a question of ponder
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Yeah, it is and and that's what we're doing. That's why we're doing this series is pondering those questions how we can be
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I Don't want to say how we can do it better, but in a sense that's true, but how we can be more biblical
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That's that's always the question how we can be more biblical how we can Learn and understand how
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God would have us to do this process and speaking of biblical I know you already answered this question in our introduction
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Podcasts on on pastoral ordination, but people people can mean different things when they say this is biblical or is this biblical?
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And they can and we've kind of Some people say when they say it's biblical they mean it's prescriptive and some say biblical meaning descriptive and then some people elevate something that's biblical descriptive up to Something that they think should be prescriptive and vice versa
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And you you kind of gave your answer that you think Pastoral ordination is both descriptive and prescriptive and we also had a conversation about How that and how it or why it shouldn't a pastoral ordination elevate itself into the the conversation with?
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Sacraments and The Lord's Supper baptism, etc.
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So yeah, and that was a good conversation. Yeah, it really even goes a step further.
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I'd say Because when you look at your church polity that can
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That has an impact on on how you view ordination. So Since Since we believe that there are actual qualifications given for the office of Elder of the supposed to be
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Person is put into the office of Elder through installation by the laying on of hands of those who are already ordained
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Or the Apostles You have it described as happening, you know, this is why
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I left you here to ordain elders in the churches So there's you have since you have that element of something that's prescribed
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This is the qualifications for this office and described this is how we've done it.
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You also look into I Like the book of Acts and you see the church's gathering at the
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Council of Jerusalem I did decide a doctrinal matter that they go then go back and report to the churches. This is what we believe is a church
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I believe that right there is a Description of Those the office of Elder being
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Described in action in the New Testament, which would be at the presbytery level I mean,
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I believe is a meeting of presbytery Which would mean that there is some sort of authority vested in the presbytery.
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That's not Necessarily in the local church not that it's not there but that the presbytery itself has some sort of Authority it's more there's more to it than just the local church as far as the way
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God has structured his His government to be because all the churches are being led by Or All true churches are being led by the
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Holy Spirit So when they come together in common consent and prayer to to God God will lead them in the right direction now granted
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Sometimes people will go off the rails and make decisions and you have errant decisions made by churches and councils
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All the way down through which is why the Bible is still our only rule of faith and practice
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But we we are to work and as a as a church body a greater church body
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Towards the end that God be glorified throughout all of our churches. Mm -hmm.
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I don't know if I added this question or Raised it differently But you cut you were kind of stepping into the waters of a question that come to my mind that I wanted to ask
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After you described the this process that that you've been going through starting for pastoral ordination in this branch of the
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Presbyterian Church, so first I keep calling up a branch of the Presbyterian the nomination and so Tell us before you start talking about your process and describe the process
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Tell us what the the acronym RPC and a stands for and and maybe how it got started little history.
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Oh goodness, I'm That's one of the exams I have to take is a reformed Presbyterian history
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Well, I mean, it's all church history, but there's definitely some reformed Presbyterian history mixed in there
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The RPC and a stands for the Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America We are theological and actual descendants of the
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Scottish Covenanters in Scotland so they were much of Psalm singing
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Presbyterians over there and in Scotland. No, there's a whole history of fighting with Actually fighting taking up arms
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Against you know Kings and others who Violated Their their covenant.
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That's why how we got the name Covenanter Because we believe one of our distinctives is that we believe that you should or that it's right for a government to Recognize explicitly
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Christ as its king and head so that The the government will work to protect the
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Christian religion and To do so honorably to seek
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Christ to Be the the one who informs their laws and how they work and they'll protect the church and the work of the church now it gets
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Complicated sometimes people don't want to mix church and state and they are separate spheres
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But the one should serve the other and likewise the church should Preach and form the legislators as to what
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God's law is and what is his Morality is what God would have done in the world legislature then is there to Protect the work of the church and preaching the gospel to to the nation's
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So with that in mind, we we had the solemn league and covenant drawn up and signed and it would they
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Folks went back on it. They didn't like it after they signed it and so There was some some fighting and some people left and came over to America bringing that Scottish Covenant or heritage with them and It's grown
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To I should know this listen,
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I'm trying to count the presbyteries we have It's several presbyteries across across North America and Japan And then
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There's other other reform presbyterian works that have been spreading across across the world we're sister churches with the
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The Scottish Reform Presbyterians and the Irish Reform Presbyterians and there's there's other sister denominations as far as Reform Presbyterians go
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That's it's not history. Well, I need to interject a question right sure right now because As you're going along a lot of information
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Well as you're going along I'm piling up questions in my mind So I need I need to know are you gonna be okay if if you're describing something and I say, okay
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Can you take a pause and let me ask a question for clarification? Sure, or wait to the end.
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No, go ahead and go ahead and interject. Okay, so Let me try to remember them all now.
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So The first one was Oh Reform Presbyterian Church, North America, right starting with the name itself if I was gonna think of a
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Denomination that would that I would consider reformed. It would be the
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Presbyterian Church Sure, so so Why? this branch of the
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Presbyterian Church Why are they using the the term reformed in their official title?
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When you're already known as reformed denomination, yeah, this one is actually twofold
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One is because we're reformed we come we take come from the the Reformation same basic doctrines as John Calvin and and the rest on on down through we come from the reformed tradition another
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Reason why we say reform it. I don't know. Somebody may correct me on this, but but we were over this is because we were
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Reformed we were a church that through our history had been persecuted so much so we no longer had any ministers our ministers
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Back up we didn't have any ministers that were ordained so that folks could partake in the
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Lord's Supper and so Through through Long process of building up young men
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Finally, they got together a group of men sent them down to the Dutch reformers on the the
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European continent in order for them to be examined and ordained as Presbyterian ministers so really the church in Scotland was there and then it was squashed to some degree and then it was
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Reformed so it was formed again. So it was really so those
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For those two reasons were called the reformed or reformed Presbyterian Church in North America So here's my next question
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You use the term you're related to the Scottish Covenanters and you and you did kind of explain what that meant a little bit and one of the reason why
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I'm asking these particular questions is for Clarification that some people may not know what you're talking about.
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I'm I'm wanting to sharpen what I think you're saying To make sure I'm understanding it right and correctly because this is this is you a lot of terminology
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That's right. And this is unique to This particular denomination and as compared to the other denominations, so When you say
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Scottish Covenanters these these Scottish individuals countrymen
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Formed covenants with their government. Is that what you're saying? Right. Yep.
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Okay wrote up the let's see. I've got a copy of it here It's called the solemn league and covenant
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Let's see what I should know that you're off the top of my head I'm gonna have to learn this before For my test somebody's gonna ask
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Let's see it was It doesn't say
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But it started off like this says a solemn league and covenant for reformation and defense of religion the honor and happiness of the king and the peace and safety of the three kingdoms of England Scotland and Ireland and it goes on to Say a bunch of stuff about The church's role the government's role and then the the
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The the three nations and the churches they're actually actually entered into a covenant with The government the church and God that they would act according to God's Word and Rulers didn't like being restricted like that and so they went back on their promise basically they they they
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Signed the covenant in order to gain political support. It was a stunt instead of Something serious to them and The actually the book
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I was reading from makes a solid fairly solid case as to why England is still bound by that covenant, even though they
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Have gone away from it, but I'll leave that for another time. We've only got an hour. Gotcha Yeah, and I definitely do what this is so fascinating and interesting and it probably does help us understand this denomination and as it
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Relates to the ordination process, but just one more question before we get in that process Just so that we because this term
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I think it's probably gonna come up again So just so we know we know what you're talking about you
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You made the comment use the term presbyteries and you said that you have this many presbyteries and even one in Japan.
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So For a Baptist or somebody else, what do you mean by presbytery?
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All right a presbytery is a Let's let's use some
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Baptist language. It's an association of Local like -minded churches now, we don't have that many
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We don't have that many churches in our denomination, I mean, I think I forget how many we have but it's it's not a ton
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And so our presbytery has Let's see. We've got one in New York City One in Boston Providence, Rhode Island two in Philadelphia Ours here in Walton one in Hazleton one in White Lake New York one in Coldenham, New York.
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Oh, man, if I'm forgetting somebody Please don't feel offended
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But but the presbytery is when It is the body where those churches send delegates of their elders to meet together in order to conduct business in the church now that business is
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Either a review of judicial cases so say There's been church discipline.
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If you are insured under church discipline in a Baptist Church If the elders speak and they say you have done wrong
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That's it in a Presbyterian Church You were able to appeal to the presbytery to go back and review
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The case know all the minutes from the case In order to make sure that things were done properly see that it it that their ruling comes down with what scripture says
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Also the presbytery They'll look over the minutes from each other's session meetings to make sure that you're not going off into heresy so when we have session meetings about once a month, we will
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Write things down in minutes that we review each other's minutes to make sure that you know
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Oh, this church over here is doing something just heretical say something and then the
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Couple other things that they do You know working together to plant churches or or doing different mission works or works of mercy but I guess one of the one of the bigger things that they do is that they
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Get together to train Train examine and ordain men for the ministry
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Basically what what the presbytery does and that's In our denomination you have two delegates every teaching elder is a delegate and then one of your ruling elders also comes as a delegate and Then I believe if you have over a hundred members
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It may be for every hundred members after that you get an extra delegate I'm really not not entirely sure.
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I know that if you if you're over a hundred you get an extra one I don't know beyond that not many of our churches have more than a hundred members
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We're a small bunch. Well, I think the words Association for the
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Baptist is is a good way to help us relate. Sure. However You're speaking of another body another group we have a comment
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I Didn't the comment lines are open Colin Andre. What denomination is he?
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That's what he is asking the rpc na our
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PC and a Yeah, I hope we answer sorry, sorry for the late notice there, but we appreciate you watching thank you so much
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You feel free to ask any other questions that you have my friend but when it comes to Presbytery versus Association, so our but political or authoritative
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Structure stops at the local church. Sure. You're saying that yours goes beyond the local church as far as policy politics
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Authority and it even goes beyond the presbytery level. Okay One step up from that and the rpc na is called
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Synod so it's when You send the the same delegates
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To a national meeting and all the all the presbyteries come together and do business as a full denomination
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Gotcha. So I would like for you just because I'm so curious to hear what you have to say after you describe the process of the rpc na and what you're going through what they expect of you and How you'll finish it and what you'll do when you finish
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I'd love to hear all that and we've got a PCA brother That's that's watching and listening
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Is this process? similar the same as the other branches of the
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Presbyterian Church and Then if we have time at the end this thing that you're describing that where you have authority or part of the polity going beyond the local church is there a biblical case for that and And what would you say that biblical case is
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I'd love to hear your perspective on that So let's start with the process because that's that's what this series is all about the the process of pastoral ordination
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How did you specifically personally? Desire it and get started and then then just go with the flow and describe the process.
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Oh, man me personally It's a it's a big it's a big question
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Real quick on on this brother's question. I believe RPC na pastors are members of their congregation and their
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Credentials are held by the Presbytery. I Believe is how they word it now.
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I may want to I mean watch double check on that though Especially because I'm going through the process
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So Me personally, I I'd felt the an internal call into the ministry since well even before I came to know
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Christ I remember Every time a missionary would come or a pastor would pray that no the raise up Preachers in the church.
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I always thought we know that that should be me not I didn't Necessarily believe the gospel even but I was like, well that should be me, you know, well
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Dan why I couldn't tell you I had no idea So after I I did come to faith what
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I was talking to one of my pastors and he said, you know, you really ought to go to Bible College and Just start start some theological education
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So I did that ended up Being asked to work with a few different churches throughout
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New York and South Carolina Five long story short.
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I served for a while as a pastor of a Baptist Church Left the
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Baptist Church Shortly after leaving there gained some Presbyterian convictions found a solid
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Presbyterian Church and started attending That's the first step in being ordained in the
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RPC and a is to be a part of it So I started attending
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Met with the elders and they just wanted to see no why are you here because I when
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I showed up I showed up not to a To a proper congregation, but to a preaching station.
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It was the it's the our church plant work that we're working on now Found out that they were gonna start up some services and and went met the folks and ended up joining the church
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It's about an hour away from us And just talking over things with them they wanted to see you know, if I had any skills or desires any whatever they
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Talked with me examined me at a few session meetings and over a course of a excuse me
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Maybe a year trying to think a year or so Then I was brought to a
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Presbytery meeting Just to kind of see what was going on six months later
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I was brought back and the the process started when when my pastor had put into the minute to the the business of The presbytery that it would like me to be brought in under the care of presbytery as a theological student
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So what that means is that the presbytery would then take a special interest in me In what
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I was studying what I was doing and that they would begin to examine To examine me to see if I would be eligible to receive a call for ordination
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So There's a lot of words there. So what what what that means is, you know,
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I'd felt an internal call Now the church is examining me to see if I should be eligible
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No is are you? Qualified are there any holdups?
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do you know your scriptures enough to be able to go to a church and be a pastor there and then if I'm eligible to receive a call a
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Church could call me and that would complete the the ordination when I was actually installed as pastor there
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So let me back up and say I just wanted Get some terms Defined While I was at the start
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So that they had me stand up in front of the presbytery meeting and I was taught
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I Shared my testimony They prayed for me asked me a few questions.
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I Had a good time there That was in the spring of The spring of 2023
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So in the fall of 2023 they had me come and Take my first two examinations
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First examination was a sermon. I had to preach where I Preach a sermon and then all the members of the presbytery would give me feedback
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You know positive or negative things that I can improve on and then they had to vote whether to Sustain or not sustain me.
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So sustaining was a positive thing. You did well not sustain This guy should maybe go back and learn how to preach again.
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I was sustained Unanimously, everybody thought that it was it was an acceptable sermon
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Then I was examined under or for personal godliness Now in our denomination or our presbytery at least this was a two -part exam
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The first part was fairly in -depth on Some very personal matters and that was done with members of the candidates and credentials committee
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They they they went in they wanted to make sure that I wasn't hiding anything from them and then the second
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That's a lot of what the Qualifications are in Timothy and Titus Yeah, those types of qualifications in men, which is
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Good good to hear from from this denomination and and how they do things.
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Yep Yep, and then the second half of the exam was done in front of presbytery where I sat down Right after I got done preaching and that I stayed seated up front and The the teaching pastor from our
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New York City look congregation Asked me questions about my personal godliness, you know devotional habits and prayer habits and how
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I treat this people and that people and what do I do when I'm upset and things like that for 30 minutes and Came down to the end and I was sustained on that exam as well
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So now I have three more exams. I have to take one of which is a
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Bible knowledge exam, which is just general basic knowledge about what's in the Bible a first -level systematic theology exam and A What is it?
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It's a history paper Church history paper And if if I'm successful in those three exams,
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I will be if I'm successful in those three exams
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Then I'll be licensed to preach So I'll be able to drive the car with a license as opposed to driving the car without a license.
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I guess a Session you have you used that word?
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I don't think yet, right? I may have our our Congregations elders we call it a session
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Okay believe it's because we believe that our elders are part of the officers of Christ's court in this church and So when they meet together, they're calling they're constituting themselves as a
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They're bringing into session a Bit of Christ's court in his church
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And and these are all pastors elders of one local church of one local church, okay, okay
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Yep, and then This session and this session get together That is called a
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Presbytery, right? Okay, and then all the presbyteries get together. It's called
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Synod Okay, and then you and then you get the different you get the different presbytery denominations together.
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We call it NAPARC Which is oh goodness the North American Presbyterian and Reformed churches and Basically, we just get along with other
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Presbyterians like there's a couple Reformed Continental Reformed denominations and then the
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OPC PCA RPCNA We were friendly with each other and you would meet at that session
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I don't I Be honest with you I know the least about NAPARC I just know that it basically if you find a
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NAPARC church, it's a theologically conservative Reformed or Presbyterian Church Okay, so let's say just for example our
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RPCNA and like our brother here PCA You guys wouldn't meet at a
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Synod No, okay. Okay. No, in fact, I believe their their
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Synod level is called General Assembly Okay Yeah, gotcha Thank you
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Becky for that help. That was really good Really really good and this this theological examination is really excellent as well
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Do you do we see that or have you seen that in Scripture? I mean, I can't deny that that's a good thing that would that we have theological examination for for pastors
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Where would we find an example for that in Scripture? You find it in Paul's letter to Timothy he says study to show yourself approved or it means not to be ashamed so he is studying in order to be found approved and The approval in our case comes from the
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Presbyterian level. Gotcha I can just imagine the Baptist denomination trying to put something like this together
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I don't know that we can I don't know that we could come up with a consistent Examination sheet because everybody would have a different opinion.
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Oh Well, I mean, you know, we've got the Westminster Confession of Faith and the shorter and larger catechisms and I tell you what, you'd think that we would we'd all be on the same page on stuff, but there are
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Disagreements and sometimes it gets loud and raucous, but we always make sure to sing a psalm hug a neck and Love each other before we leave
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No So we talked about the hierarchical structure and the
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That's only to get licensed after your license to preach
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Usually this all goes along with your your seminary Training usually your first year of seminary
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You're just taking classes your second year of seminary kind of goes along with your first five exams
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Then your second year of seminary usually goes along with your second five exams. Now the second five exams are
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Another sermon there's an exegetical paper a second -level
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The systematic theology exam a Oral church history exam and Then you have to take a
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It's a Shepherding and evangelistic gifts exam
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So they run you through all sorts of different Scenarios and questions about what would you do in this counseling situation or this?
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Evangelistic situation if you're trying to share the gospel In fact one of the questions my brother who you just passed all of his exams
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He's waiting for a call in January we'll be giving him a call become our associate pastor
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He He got asked the question, you know, how would you share the gospel?
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Focusing not on justification but focusing on the aspect of adoption
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And it was it was interesting to think through No, since adoption is one of the aspects of salvation, you know, how would you share the gospel by focusing it on adoption?
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you maybe that resonates with somebody more than just You're a sinner. You need to be you need to have your sins forgiven
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No, and laying it down as a as a matter of Law No, what does it look like to share the gospel when you're talking about reconciliation between?
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the God in heaven and No, there's people on earth
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To adopt them as sons. What does that look like? This is a good question I've been pondering on it since I know probably get the same one
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I've also been pondering on it because it's a good thing to think about. Yeah at that point if you pass those five exams
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That's ten altogether Then you are eligible to receive a call. So which means
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Churches from wherever in our denomination Are you'll be certified as eligible to receive a call that?
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certification goes out to The denomination so anybody any church in the denomination that's needing a pastor or looking for a pastor
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Could conceivably call you to be their pastor So they present a call to the presbytery the presbytery then can either accept it or reject it
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Like say they're like, this isn't a good fit for you. We know the church. We know you this isn't a good fit they can reject the call or they pass it on to the the the candidate the person who's pastor examinations and then if they accept
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Then there's three final examinations for ordination, which is a third sermon
40:43
Another personal godliness exam, which is from what I understand to make sure that you are
40:49
You haven't been backsliding in the time that you've been taking your examinations and then you
40:56
You you have to affirm the standard the doctrinal standards of the
41:02
RPCNA including the Oh What is it? What's it called the the the reformed
41:09
Presbyterian testimony, which is a small commentary on the
41:15
Basically a small commentary on the Westminster Confession of Faith kind of flushes out a little bit more.
41:21
Mm -hmm And that's how you get ordained Well, if you are you pass those exams the last three
41:29
Then there's a service where the hands are laid on you and you're actually installed as pastor in in the church
41:36
Once you've been called to a church and that's that's Presbyterian wide. So conceivably you could be eligible for a call but not
41:45
Actually made a not actually ordained so so what they what they do is
41:55
It means that That you're not ordained to and Moves, you know,
42:02
I want to put this it's not like you're just or you can just be ordained now.
42:08
You're a pastor And then you're never in a church. In other words, they don't just bestow this this this church authority upon Just some guy who's not going to be a pastor of a church so he comes with the responsibility of shepherding a flock and teaching them on a weekly basis and Seeing them through tough times
42:31
It's not just something that you can go out there and obtain and and put in your back pocket say I have got the credentials
42:37
It comes with with great responsibility Because you are then no given charge to care for these people's souls
42:45
Right for you know, as long as you're you're their pastor so that it's
42:53
I Think that's why they do it It's not just something to have in your back pocket or a certificate to put on the wall
42:59
It comes with a real responsibility in Christ Church Now a noble responsibility.
43:04
It says that the one who Desires office of an elder desires a good thing. It's a noble thing Yeah, and that's very thoughtful.
43:12
It's a very thoughtful process very very biblically thoughtful and I can appreciate all of that that you have to go through and in the process that they have
43:24
When you talk about one going to seminary the question that I had was Are you referring to like an accredited university or when you talk about seminary?
43:34
Is that something that the presbytery puts on? No, it's well At the
43:41
RPC and a we have our own seminary It's called reform Presbyterian Theological Seminary I met the president of the seminary not too long.
43:51
It was at the spring Presbytery meeting he came and spoke a little bit.
43:57
His name is Barry York, I believe Our guy
44:03
Colorado I'm blanking on his name China knocks. Yeah, he interviewed him on family worship
44:11
Okay, great guy I'm from everything. I understand if I was going to seminary again,
44:18
I'd probably go there a great bunch of people and the
44:25
Denomination helps their helps their own folks through the process they don't want price to be a thing to To deter someone who's truly called in ministry
44:38
Okay, so they and they they hold their standards pretty high they're they're accredited through I Forget who
44:46
I don't think it's I don't think it's one of the no six
44:54
Big ones, I believe it's through Association of theological schools or So I forget but they have some standards then they're held accountable to The denomination as well.
45:10
They have to give a report every year at Sinod No saying how they're doing what they're doing what they're doing with the money all that.
45:17
I don't know how I got off on that I started somewhere Jim went on to plug our seminary
45:24
Well, I got one more question on that you were talking about the process and then that that those final steps where you are
45:33
Eligible for a call which means a church can Call you to come be their pastor and then you have that or final ordination process
45:41
So once you get there and this is another cross The only only term that comes to my mind right now is cross -pollination
45:51
Um Going back to the PCA our brother here that was with us the PCA Church or another branch of the
45:57
Presbyterian Church Once you make it to that that process or that stage in the process Would you be eligible eligible for a
46:05
PCA to call you and then get ordained? Maybe That's the thing each denomination is going to be like you you're
46:21
Your credentials don't necessarily transfer but If You're a part of a nay park church other denominations will look favorably on you know that they
46:36
They may still like say I was to transfer over to the PCA or the OPC whichever church was looking at Sending me a call their presbytery would have the right
46:47
I'd say the responsibility to examine me If that's the full gamut of examinations, then it's the full group of examinations if they just want to call you in and have you look at or and look at you and ask you questions for two or three hours, you know, just as a
47:07
Sort of a get it all done at once approach. That would be their prerogative, I guess
47:12
Depending on their their roles and how they how they do things, but it's not a one -for -one between denominations, but no, if you're
47:24
If you're in a nay park denomination, it does look at least favorably They're gonna you don't you always want to kick the tires yourself and look under the hood before you before you buy the car
47:38
Well, you were talking about exams that you have to take as part of this process I was trying to wrap my brain about What in it what exam with the
47:46
Baptist skip and and I believe I come up with with the exam that we would offer Our candidates and that would be the exam of what is your love language?
47:56
Oh goodness, what's a English or those those romantic languages,
48:02
I don't know That would be a very deep and in theological study that we would do on on what your love language is
48:10
That was that way you would know how to relate to the members of your congregation Oh goodness better that than asking what their
48:16
Enneagram number is Yes, I would say yes me
48:24
Love language exam would be pretty bad, but that would be even worse The only acceptable answer to what is your
48:29
Enneagram number is? I don't know. I don't know and I'll see you later Here's the gospel by the way All right, so Let's go back to Becky's post because that's gonna help us with my next question
48:44
Talk about what a session is the great face with her with that Santa hat on too. That's nice.
48:50
It's nice. Um, I Considered wearing mine, but I'll hold off pastors and elders of a local church at the session and then those guys get with other sessions and form the presbytery and then presbyteries get together and they
49:06
So that kind of helps answer this question. So within With let's start at the bottom
49:16
That's probably a bad term. Let's start with the local church level pastor and elder. Are there different positions or Everybody's equal.
49:26
Is there a lead main teaching pastor? What does that look like? Yes, okay
49:35
This is different across different Presbyterian denominations ours we
49:42
Don't know we we say that we have a two and a half offices in the church so we have
49:53
We have the deacon which we agree on just a deacon Then we have the ruling elder and the teaching elder know the ruling elder and the teaching elder on the session have the exact same authority
50:06
So when they go in When they when they go in to decide matters or to to make rulings or to make decisions
50:18
Each elder is on an equal Footing playing field with each other elder whether you're a ruling elder or a teaching elder
50:28
We do require we don't require the ruling elders to do all of these examinations
50:35
They are required to be examined by their own session and then elected by their congregation
50:43
Then they can serve as a ruling elder of a ruling elders in our denomination are not allowed to baptize not allowed to Administer the
50:55
Lord's Supper and they're they're not supposed to pronounce the benediction as a
51:04
Very frequently, I think they can do it on occasion Hmm. So what's the significant of that?
51:10
Well, why does the Presbyterian Church elevate the the benediction? because the benediction is a is a actual it's a blessing of The congregation a lot of times it comes from Scripture Sometimes I've heard it before in in our denomination where it there's scriptural language there, but it's just a blessing of the people
51:32
Of from the pastor so you want to make sure that if they're going to to give the benediction that it's something that is a hundred percent scriptural all the time and and you may have
51:49
You may have a ruling elder who is wise very wise But maybe stumbles over their words or hasn't formulated the way to say things properly
51:59
They just kind of I don't want to say hold it back, but they they treat it like it's an important thing.
52:10
So They they can pronounce the benediction
52:15
But they say I believe it says in our we've got a little blue book that says all of this in great length
52:21
Whether you want it to or not and It says on occasion Mm -hmm.
52:27
Okay, so the way you described the process of calling a ruling elder now that sounded very similar to How the
52:37
Baptist Church would call their? their elders all over Yeah, so so we got a good connection there
52:47
Now the Presbytery which is where the the different sessions from different churches Come together and form one body.
52:54
Are there different offices within the Presbytery? Yes, but no there there are different offices there but they're they're functional
53:09
Administratively functional not everybody's still on the same footing but we have a clerk a treasurer and a moderator
53:20
So the clerk writes and records everything helps it usually serves as the parliamentarian also
53:26
So make sure that we follow the right orders You know if we need to have a motion in a second and then a vote or if we can do something by calling consensus or whatever
53:36
That person will do that They're also the one who will process and give out the call that comes in from a church they'll come into the
53:45
Presbytery through the clerk and then it'll Go through its process and then be given to the candidate
53:52
By the clerk the moderator is the one who stands up front and make sure everything goes well he
53:59
Says hey, we're gonna sing this psalm. Let's pray. We're gonna do this now. We're gonna do that now
54:06
And then the the treasurer handles the money for the for the
54:11
Presbytery Okay, so and and I'm assuming that those who are in the
54:18
Presbytery Decide amongst themselves who we're gonna hold those positions Yeah And then if they if they call you to sit or stand before them each one in each person inside the
54:29
Presbytery Has the equal authority to examine you ask you questions Yes But it's the the moderator will moderate how that's done so you can't just go rug step out of line and do your own thing
54:45
Gotcha Yeah, okay That makes sense. And then same kind of same question deal with the
54:53
Senate is Is it same or different? Are there offices positions in the
54:58
Senate? Yeah, I believe it's just about the same thing You've got a moderator who's elected on a yearly basis a clerk or now the threat the treasurer thing
55:10
It gets a little bit more involved Because you talk about denominational stuff that's over a course of the whole organization
55:22
But basically, yeah, it'd be basically the same thing Okay Well, I get two last questions, is there anything that you would like to add?
55:34
Number one that you think we've left out that you would like people to know about this Specific branch of the
55:40
Presbyterian Church and then second the the final question What what is your advice?
55:48
to I would say a young man or an old man or somebody in between that is is
55:54
Dealing with that Internal call as you mentioned earlier having a desire to Seek pastoral ministry
56:04
What would your advice be to them? All right. So anything we left out no
56:10
This one kind of goes along with the advice if you have feel the opportunity to go to seminary
56:20
Who are you going through the process And you have a option of getting an
56:25
MDiv a Master of Divinity instead of a different seminary degree, maybe a
56:31
Master of Arts and Biblical Studies and a four -year bachelor's degree Do that because it makes it easier on your candidates and credentials committee because since I decided to cobble together my theological education across like nine years at four different institutions
56:50
They're they're really looking into my credits and stuff and I'm in uncharted territory and they're talking about what to do with me and stuff and it's it's just Make it easy on your committee and just just go to seminary that the normal way don't do what
57:04
I did But Advice to you to those who are seeking to become a pastor and elder
57:14
Number one pray about it I Can't stress that enough to pray about it
57:23
If you really feel that you have a call from God, then you know pray
57:30
No, he's either going to confirm That in you or or not or you're gonna confirm it in yourself when you shouldn't
57:40
So pray and then Be patient Especially if you're in a
57:48
Presbyterian denomination, it's going to take a while You're looking at three years of school two years of examinations working in your church on internships and They're gonna they're gonna put you through through the ringer
58:04
And it's it's all good. It will grow you and Through the whole process listen to your session listen to your elders
58:19
Talk to them Bother them get to know other pastors in in the
58:25
Presbytery Get to know the other ruling elders. There are some really really wise men who serve as ruling elders
58:34
Who aren't up there preaching every Sunday, but they have wisdom
58:41
That's they've honed it over years and years of seeing pastors come and go in the denomination
58:51
You're teaching elders have been through it themselves, but they're they're a little biased, you know, they've been through it they understand some things but Ruling others have been able to sit back and watch
59:02
There's some really wise men there listen to listen to your elders and Don't be afraid to take a step back if you need to You should always proceed with confidence that what you feel that God has called you to God has called you to but you shouldn't take it as something personal if your elders tell you to slow down or go in a different direction or Stop at this point or anything along the way because really they're looking out for the for your soul
59:35
They want to that but they would rather see you in in Eternal bliss with Christ than to see you in pastoral ministry and on your way to hell
59:49
They're they're not out there to to crush your spirits or ruin you they're there to help you and see you succeed so just be patient pray study and Develop a caffeine habit because you're probably
01:00:06
Everything except for that caffeine habit Well Since I did the last time and then well time for that and Jonathan did it
01:00:16
I'd love for you to share the gospel and then I will close us in prayer absolutely
01:00:25
The one of the things that I've been I've been in going through this process you're thinking about The elders are there to care for the souls of their sheep to see them
01:00:47
Brought home brought into relationship with Christ. I see that that relationship nurtured
01:00:56
It's a it's a family thing it's a it's a thing where You are a part of something else.
01:01:05
You're a part of the world You're a part of those who love sin and you're drawn to Christ There there's so many sins in this world.
01:01:18
So many Heartaches and pains so many things that separate us from God and make us alienated from him
01:01:25
We're all guilty of it. We all have have these things That we we do we think they're just evil and wicked
01:01:36
We need to be healed We need to have
01:01:45
Restoration we need to know that our Creator and the only way that that's going to happen is if that sin is removed if we were taken from the the place where we're at and put somewhere new and in that is
01:01:59
What God has done through Christ Jesus he has taken the sins of man placed them upon Christ Then taken you from this world and adopted you as his own son or daughter that's the essence of the gospel that those who were once in sin and sick those who are
01:02:19
Hurting and in pain will look to Christ and find healing and relief Through the gospel through the remission of sins through the the washing of the
01:02:28
Holy Spirit and through the cleansing of the blood of Christ and it's only through that that we can find a
01:02:34
A true peace enjoy in Knowing that God is ours.
01:02:42
We are his we've been made right with our Creator and that our sins have been forgiven That is the gospel
01:02:50
And that's good stuff So we we do we we hope this was an encouragement to you.
01:02:58
We we hope that you would yield to that gospel message and That you would share it as well.
01:03:06
If you have already come to know Christ as your Lord and Savior If you would let's pray.
01:03:12
We'll wrap this up father We we love you and we praise you and we give you all honor and glory because you you deserve it
01:03:20
You are the one and only true God. You're the only one and only living God. There is none other besides you
01:03:27
There's none above you. There's none beside you There's not even any below you or beneath you because they do not exist you are the only one you the
01:03:36
Self -existing one you you tell us that you existed for all eternity
01:03:44
You father the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit and we lift high your holy name and we celebrate the incarnation
01:03:57
The coming and we celebrate the Spirit who came
01:04:05
To make us born again to regenerate us To be our helper and we love you.
01:04:14
We thank you You are so kind and wonderful to us as Dan brought to our attention as People who do not deserve it.
01:04:30
We are What we do deserve is Your wrath and in your loving kindness you saw fit to show mercy on us
01:04:43
And we give you thanks we give you praise and we pray all these things in Jesus name.
01:04:50
Amen All right. Thank you guys for watching We really appreciate it the truth and love podcast if you would if you followed us followed us this long
01:04:59
Sorry, so late Give us a like a subscribe a share share with your friends.
01:05:05
We hope the series will be encouraging to you and to others Remember that Jesus is
01:05:10
King Go live in the victory of Christ to speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.