Responding to Patty Bonds and EWTN

Responding to Patty Bonds and EWTN

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three. Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white. And a good evening or almost good morning to you on the East Coast. Anyways, this is a special edition of the dividing line a special late-night edition for you late-night folks, I guess.

Actually the reason for doing it this evening is rather obvious. I head out of town tomorrow afternoon be gone for the next two Saturdays and some of you just simply cannot survive without your dividing line Fix so instead of having you calling and griping and complaining to poor rich here who is stuck here in the beautiful 70 degree weather here in Phoenix while I'm going back to 20 degree highs in the East Coast.

We thought we would give you one dividing line. It will not be as long as normal. I don't know how long it's going to be sort of when I get done talking is when it gets done as far as the program goes, but it is a commercial-free version of the of the of the program this evening, so We'll we'll get a little bit more Material into the same period of time shall we say but anyways the reason for this evening's program.

Those of you who have been listening for quite some period of time Know that over the past couple of years well How long has it been. I didn't go back in and really look personally. But over the past couple of years we have provided a response whenever statements have been made in public on the part of Mrs. Patty bonds who is my sister my only sister six and a half some odd years older than I am and The Sometime last week as I recall I heard from one source and then I've heard from another source that there was a program airing on EWTN and The First few bits of information I got were well It's something with Patrick Madrid and your sister and things like that so I started looking around EWTN I couldn't really find anything there wasn't and nothing came up on the search and things like that.

But slowly in talking to folks I was able to track down the program the abundant life and Eventually was able to find the showtimes and Was able to watch the program yesterday. When it came on Noontime here in the Phoenix area and basically is an hour-long program a woman interviewing various guests and She interviewed first Patrick Madrid because he is the editor of the surprised by truth series Which has sold many hundreds of thousands of copies.

Basically these are conversion stories. And I've always found a little bit interesting because I remember back when Catholic answers was First starting to really hit the scene back in the 80s. One of the things that I seem to recall was some criticism of the ever-present Conversion stories on the part of people who had left the Roman Catholic Church there was a Basically the argument was well, you know people who leave are not exactly the best sources of information.

Many times they leave for all the wrong reasons and things like that and really on some levels. That's true we're not really into big really big into conversion stories ourselves, but Then they found out you know what they sell well, and so I mean certainly the tapes for example Scott Hahn's conversion tape Millions had been just have been distributed over time and and So these books have been coming out so first they introduced and interviewed Patrick Madrid who I debated last July on Long Island in regards to veneration of Saints and angels and Then they had an Anglican priest who interestingly enough was a graduate of Bob Jones University who went to England and became an Anglican and then he then he eventually converted to Roman Catholicism and then my sister came on so.

What we're going to do is I just have a couple clips we we recorded the program Respond to a couple things that were said make some comments and that'll that'll do it because tomorrow we head for Hartford, Connecticut actually, that's just the that's just where the airport is anyways and Be speaking on the Herald camping not tomorrow night, but the night after that in Connecticut and then going to New Hyde Park Baptist Church could be speaking on the atonement and then probably I think Hillside Baptist Church Sunday morning Steve camp and I are gonna be doing some stuff together on Long Island.

That's gonna be really neat on Saturday evening and Hopefully something Sunday. The next week working together at various churches. We're gonna be at the Massapequa Church of God I'm not sure if Steve's gonna be at that one But I'm at Massapequa Church God Wednesday night Thursday night with Ed Moore and the folks at North Shore Baptist Church Steve camp and I together and then we head off to Tuscarora for a a Youth retreat on loving God with new the Hope Reform Baptist Church folks and then come back.

So that's what's what's I'm looking at doing and all I can say is I'm gonna need to try to stay warm while I'm back there because it was I don't know what I got up to today, but it was somewhere in the mid -70s.

It was very very very nice. Well, anyways the abundant life. Interesting how it started. Let's let's listen to how things got started a wife mother and sister of a leading.

On Being Labeled an Anti-Catholic Apologist

Anti-catholic apologist I.

You know, you know if you've listened, I guess I just need to make the obligatory statement. Again, no names were used this time. They were on Catholic answers, but on any WTN and I'm starting to wonder if that's an EWTN thing.

I'm really starting to wonder if if they're in reality is a EWTN Flyer someplace a memo someplace that says you shall not mention names on the air or something. Because the EWTN programs no names are mentioned then you go to the other programs and they are I'm really not sure what that's all About but you may recall when she first went on the air.

This was the same type of thing Anti-catholic apologists and you know, I've pointed out, you know, there's no logic or rationality to this. We have referred to Catholic apologists, but they simply cannot admit this is I don't know.

There's some some sort of Somehow undermine the primacy of Rome or something to admit that other people are apologists for what they believe not just simply against what Rome is presenting. Why am I an anti-catholic?

Apologist does that make me an anti-mormon apologist on debating the Mormons and anti-homosexual apologists on debating the pro-homosexual Groups and the an anti-muslim apologists. I mean Why can't they just simply use the right terminology?

I don't know but that's you know, that's just sort of how that works. That's sort of the obligatory. You know take a shot at at somebody in regards to that particular perspective, but we continue on from there.

Now, this is a longer section. In fact, this is two and a half minutes. Wow and this is Pat Madrid discussing with the host the idea of this series of books and it's really interesting because he This is an interesting illustration in this next clip of how you try to get your kids to take medicine and You you stick, you know, the aspirin inside some type of candy type thing and they take it because they think they're just getting.

You know, I'm watching a Catholic and apologetics say wow, you can't do that Protestants is a non-term. It means nothing. Oh. It means nothing, okay, that's whoo brilliant anyways I Think he has to close that window so the nonsense doesn't constantly distract me.

But anyways, I found it interesting. Yeah, you can give your kids aspirin and a little candy type thing. You can also give them cyanide I mean, it's one of the two ways and he's describing these books as well.

You know you get to know the person and so you can sort of give good Catholic apologetics. And I've you know, I've looked through these books folks and I wrote some fairly lengthy responses the first one it first came out There's no good Catholic apologetics in here, there's a lot of lousy Catholic apologetics, but there's not much the way a good Catholic apologetics so.

Well, you just listen for yourself. It about conversion stories particularly that have in a sense captured the hearts and the minds of the Catholic readership.

It's a it's a a phenomenon that I'm not sure. I totally understand. I mean, I've got some ideas and opinions of what I think back in the early 1990s let's say by the late 80s early 90s. There was a another phenomenon of Conversion stories on tape and they were very very popular people would put out.

You know sometimes hundreds of thousands of copies of a given Testimony Scott Hans being a very good example, which is now in the millions and those single tapes were very powerful. They changed lives.

They brought people closer to the church and one day I got the idea Why not put that kind of a conversion story, which was heavy and laden with apologetics? Why not put that into a book form? And then if the next idea that came was why not do rather than a single story?

Why not do multiple stories so that a single volume has got a lot of variety and I think the combination of variety and the ability to To really see inside. Somebody's struggle to see the kinds of things they have to sacrifice.

And even antecedent to that to see some of the the prejudices and misunderstandings that they themselves once held can be very instructive and an analogy that I've sometimes used to speak to audiences about this whole issue of Why these kinds of stories are so effective it has to do with?

When you have a small child who wakes up sick in the middle of the night my wife and I have raised Quite a few small children so we know from experience that in the middle of the night a cranky two-year-old who's got an earache or something does not want to be given medicine and you will fight and fuss and try to get the medicine, but if you Hide the baby aspirin in a teaspoon of applesauce.

Then the little baby will eat the applesauce thinking that's all he's getting but in fact There are two baby aspirin in there with it and in a certain sense the surprised by truth books follow that same kind of Motif I guess in the sense that people become caught up they become enthralled in the stories without necessarily Realizing that they're also imbibing a very strong dose of Catholic apologetics, and so by the time they're done with the book.

They have not only been educated in the faith whether they're Catholic or Protestant or any other religion for that matter. And they've also had their hearts warmed by reading these true conversions.

There we go that was conversion stories. I cut off the s there while creating the thing anyways well there. You have the illustration. I I found it interesting, and you know I've taken these conversion stories the Jerry Matta ticks Scott Hans conversion stories played him in my college classes, and we've taken them apart and examined them and and I I Don't find anything compelling in these things.

I really it. You know I've mentioned to you before I remember one summer I was teaching up at Golden Gate. And they have EWTN radio up there. And I would turn it in turn it on and tune these programs and where they have these converts and it was just the same thing over and over and over again and every one of them showed the clearest evidence of never having even attempted to Interact with any meaningful response whatsoever and certainly for me.

It just just kept reiterating the exact same thing that man these these folks converted out of ignorance of What the other side has to offer there are a lot of ignorant Protestants. Just like there are a lot of ignorant Catholics I certainly heard I certainly recognized that Catholic apologists will say hey.

Well a lot of people convert everyone because they don't know anything about what the church teaches. Well. That's true, and there's a lot of Protestants that don't know what their church teaches either ignorance in in conversion I don't think really means that that conversion story has much in the way of a value to it personally.

But I mean it does for them personally, but doesn't I don't think for anybody else certainly doesn't have any thing that carries along but anyways it was interesting to To know well you know these conversion tapes went real well, and they did they were all over the place so let's start the conversion story books and How long will that last.

I don't know who knows. You look at the quality of these stories and eventually it just gets very very very very tiring because it's just the same thing Over and over again well eventually my my sister came on the program and the discussion began.

Let's listen to the next section.

Catholic Conversion Stories and the “Surprised by Truth” Formula

Sermons. Was that so my father viewed the Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon and that the Pope would probably eventually be the Antichrist and.

Now the reason I played this particular section. I think I may have lost one section. I wanted to play, but anyways one of the constant elements of This story has been well. You know when I was a young person my father preached through the book of Revelation.

He said that the Pope was the Antichrist. Well anyone who's familiar with almost any church history whatsoever during the period of say Reformation for the next 300 years Sits there and goes Yeah. So I mean even the London Baptist Confession of 1689 has a section that describes the Pope as the Antichrist that starts with with the The Lollards in England following Wycliffe.

I mean so what's new, but you did you hear the host immediately played again. Listen listen to the host sort of commenting. Not by saying much, but with the mmm-hmm type of comment comments in the background.

Sermons was that so my father viewed the Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon. And that the Pope would probably eventually be the Antichrist and. Here's here's here's the commentary.

There's the commentary right there, and if you watch it what's going on is oh. You were you were so benighted. You were so blind, and I want to go excuse me. But could we could we talk to a few Catholics about their views of Protestant churches sometime?

I mean what? At least at least go this far and my my mother especially has said that this never happened, but even if let's Leave that aside and say even if it did. So what are we are we in essence what you hear in these conversion stories is.

Boy, if if you had positive beliefs, and if they involved Saying that Rome was wrong. Oh, you were an anti-catholic. You were you were involved in bias bigotry. What if you that was just actually your belief, and it was a positive belief, and it flowed from you may notice.

And I didn't give you the whole section here. But she's talking about a whole series of sermons out of the book of Revelation. At least it's based upon trying to do something with the text of Scripture.

Most views of Protestants on the part of nominal Roman Catholics doesn't have to do a scripture at all. It's just whatever the priest said so which is better getting out of the book of Revelation. Whether you agree with the interpretation or not or getting it from a priest someplace.

This this whole thing about all it was I was so benighted I was so prejudiced and the what you want to try to communicate is you see you'll never hear them talking about a Response you'll never hear them talking about The full bore Protestant response to the things that they're saying they stay on a very simple level because see that's what's most effective.

Very much more effective with their the audience they want to attempt to excite and Keep excited about Roman Catholicism things like that. It's much more effective that way and That's that's I think what we have going on going on here, so that's that's been a real common element of it.

You know and the funny thing is and nothing's ever said about her anti-catholic apologist brother on that level because Most of you know that when I preach out of the book of Revelation. It's out of the first five chapters, and it's normally Christological or Ecclesiastical Ecclesiastical in its orientation because most folks know I'm not exactly real big on eschatology as yet and So I sort of you know shy away from that so Anyhow, let's let's listen to this this next clip.

Oh So that led me to okay, let me let me set this up. I I normally write these things down. At some point in time it's very very interesting here. My sister sees this st. Patrick's Day parade and she finds the confessions of st. Patrick and oh This is this is what I've been you know.

This is all the stuff that I've been studying in this weird stuff she had gotten into beforehand and So Now we need to find out about Roman Catholicism. Then you know I I don't expect most folks that listen to this really listen closely enough to find out and go hmm That's that's interesting, but you would think if If you wanted to get some information That you wouldn't go about it by thrashing around outside of your communion and Then and only much later way down the road.

You then ask anybody who's around you if you really want truth you really information I can be afraid of where it's going to come from I mean You're gonna be willing to listen to both sides, and so why not let both sides including the side You're currently allegedly aligned with speak.

Yeah, that's not exactly what happened listen. Oh that led you to Well so that led me to.

Try to find a source of information without getting myself in deep trouble. Because if I had even told anyone I knew that I was thinking about Researching the Catholic Church, and I would have been in deep trouble reputation wise.

So I had to find an outside source, and I found a friend who would be willing to give me some objective information.

Outside source that's fell by the name of David Bjork by the way I would hope his nomination has dealt with him now. He's a missionary in France. The how objective that information would be is also extremely highly questionable, but.

What was this last. Let me replay this last section here, this is. I found this. This is one of the there wasn't much new in this appearance, but I found this in researching the cat.

What's researching the Catholic Church? I would have been in deep trouble reputation wise. I don't understand that reputation wise.

I don't understand that I I don't with whom I Don't know. Even when my sister approached me anonymously as a unknown emailer I Sent her a very full response on the subjects that she raised so I certainly would have provided her with an endless amount of information, and if she hadn't wanted to Talk to me.

I know some really good folks. I could have gotten her in touch with Who would have given her a non-familial perspective on things. That that was a statement, I did not understand could not even begin to Follow whatsoever that that one didn't make any any sense whatsoever to me at all all right.

Fear of Reputational Damage and the Search for Catholic Answers

Let's this one is just about a minute long here. Let me I'll go ahead and do what I did before. We'll see what it's about here. What about your parents? Okay? Here's where we talk. Here's where and I've mentioned this before.

The big thing now, and it's it's it's funny. I don't I think I may have skipped This section and putting it together that was I had 14 different things going all at once and when you're downloading stuff installing stuff putting Files together for a trip, and you need to work on editing this book and that material.

You know you can tend to lose things and at one point in this interview the interviewer makes this Amazing statement about her having to debate me. Which everybody who heard it there were a number of folks in channel that were listening on EWTN yesterday?

Just lost it at that point because as most folks know who followed this saga. My emails email addresses have been blocked my AOL instant message access has been blocked. There's no debate going on here, and and when there was interaction.

It was very one-sided, and it had the character of well You just mentioned what what Augustine said, but have you have you noted what Augustine said about about Pope Zosimus in this particular passage?

Response why do you rail against the church? Well? I'm not really against church. I'm talking about Augusta right now, and did you notice we said about the primacy of Scripture over here? Oh, you're so fearful and filled with fear and hatred of the church.

Well really not I'm just sort of talking about these things right now. Did you notice this over here? Why do you continue to attack the church? It's all this you are so angry stuff when all you're doing is saying well I just don't accept what you're saying and here's some factual response.

How about that? Oh, that's terrible that that's been the nature of the whole thing and so I'm not the one my email filters don't filter anything from her and My AOL instant message. She wanted to want to contact me whenever I'm on she could.

But Doesn't work the other direction around so here's here's where she's promoting this stuff.

What about your parents and your brother who is a famous anti-catholic apologist? What their relationships are at a standstill? I feel for them really because I wish I could kind of like the sacred heart of Jesus Expose my heart to them and and let them see what the Lord is doing in my life.

Their prejudices and their fears keep them from seeing that and That manifests itself in anger and alienation, but I know that the background of that is it's real fear on their part that that I've consigned my soul to hell and my children's and my husband's and So I feel for them.

I ache for them that that they're in this turmoil. Well, I enjoyed you know the peace and the bliss of being where I need to be. I long for them to know that and I long for them to be here.

Well, I can guarantee you there is there's no fear on my part because My my my sister is not certainly in any way shape or form shown me anything that I hadn't Seen a thousand times before and in fact had already dealt with a thousand times before but This seems to be the the defense mechanism that is utilized.

So that factual information does not have to be dealt with. Instead it's just all the the emotional aspects All along. I have been told that I am cold and heartless because I only want to discuss biblical truth and historical issues rather than Emotional issues, and I'm like well I Obviously in a no-win situation here aren't I I mean if I talk about biblical and historical issues, and I'm that's that I'm cold.

But then it's also said that I'm mean spirited or fearful and all the rest of things. It's like well wait a minute if Either direction I go Obviously I'm wrong by by definition Seems to be the issue here and this idea of fearful and things like that has nothing to do with fear at all.

Maybe it has something to a fear for her. But it's certainly not fear of examining anything because I've examined far more of this issue than she has that's for certain so it's it's an interesting thing to observe the the the conversion process.

A number I've made comments in channel in regards to mannerisms and language and use of terminology that this this seems to be a continuing process and It goes both ways I mean, I'm sure that people who look at people who've left the Roman Catholic Church would see similar things except in reverse obviously, but anyhow just actually just one more quick clip here and Don't forget Mark Shays favorite adjective creepy did he did he use creepy of me?

I mean, he's I've gotten a lot of names and stuff, but creepy and it's interesting. This is ridiculous. I wish he was taking live callers. Well, what would you like to what would you like to talk about?

Mr. Aquinas, sir? He's not gonna be here for two weeks. Yes. I'm not gonna be here for two weeks. What what is what? What I'd like to know is how in the world would you have anything meaningful to say about my response to a conversion story?

I'll I'll wait a second here because there's there's a delay before we go. Well, I'll play this last clip and then During the course that last clip. I'd like to see what what insights you you have to say about that let's play this this last section is primarily the host of the program and The host of the program is is sort of offering a prayer shall we say let's pray that that tributary of grace now.

That has so helped your family start to be softened and to come into the church. We're just now flow into the life of your prayer parents and into the life of your brother tributary of grace.

Well let's let's remember that the Roman Catholic understanding of this is so radically removed from the biblical Understanding of this let's remember that this is a grace that That tries to save a grace that cooperates with man's will.

But a grace that fails in saving so many unless as we've seen recently. I mean the all these all these comments may well Be irrelevant to the not-too-distant future if the next Pope officially enshrines Inclusivism as the Roman Catholic perspective who knows Universalism is right around the corner.

Maybe all this will be irrelevant, but at least the historic Roman Catholic Church and its synergistic view of salvation and the Council of Florence and its statements about Jews and schismatics and heretics and so on so forth.

Those individuals will not receive everlasting life because it is a synergistic Cooperative effort. It is grace that is dependent upon the power of man rather than grace that saves the elect of God perfectly and That grace the the biblical grace doesn't have quote-unquote tributaries.

That are in any way shape or form controlled by the sacraments of the Roman Church. I can assure you of that but anyways Augusta said that we need to cooperate with oh, that's nice. I'm sort of a biblical type, dude.

Let's talk facts and history never claimed Augustan as the authority on that one. And I haven't gotten any answers as to what was so ridiculous. I've played that whole thing and haven't gotten a single response, so.

Well anyway, so I I Say to the the host the program who by the way if you if you listen to it or watch it. You know I mean let's put this way. She asks Patrick Madrid, and and you know Pat's a pretty level-headed guy you know he doesn't he doesn't get wild and wacky and things like that and He handles himself real well.

He's probably one of the best-spoken Catholic apologists out there. She's there there's certain things often, and he does this long opening thing and that's always good. So I take control laid lay out the foundation.

And then you can see her sort of look down her notes, and she goes now now apologetics is very important to you. Isn't it this guy's you know like? Was vice president of Catholic answers for like 14 million years and well, he's not that old, but you know what I mean no offense and She says now Apologetics doesn't mean we're apologizing for anything does it you can just he tried honestly he tried.

But you could just I know Patrick we did well enough you can see this twitch and twitch in his face going. He handled it well you got it give give credit where credit is due no no tweets about it. But it was sort of funny how he how he handled that I haven't seen anything from Aquinas here.

Aquinas is a Is a man in the apologetics channel right now? Who has asserted that he is an official teacher in the church. That that he is has authority from the bishops and priests to teach officially the Roman Catholic perspective and Was saying beforehand let me scroll back up here, so I can you know quote him quote him directly here.

You know this is let's say there we go. This is ridiculous. I wish he was taking live callers. This was at 2128 which was approximately Six minutes ago now, and you've all heard me say well. What do you want to call about and what what what the world?

You have to say and So far I have gotten no response, and so I don't know how long to drag it out as far as Him calling in this evening to tell at least explain to me this evening. What is ridiculous about any of the comments that I made.

I don't know how he could have anything to say about that. But we have mentioned when I get back from wherever. I'm gonna be traveling here for the next little while I've got San Antonio coming up Omaha so on and so forth.

Oh now. This is a bit unfair. Oh, I see okay. Well. You know I've debated In Roman Catholic settings where I was the only Protestant there well, I'll take that back there were two Protestants there there was a Anglican in the front row which I'm not sure really counts as a full Protestant.

But all you Anglicans that are conservative out there don't don't blow a fuse there. Just laugh with me. So I've I've gone to those settings. I'm not really sure what's unfair about this at all, but anyways, I've mentioned he's very much wants to debate me on the subject of the apocrypha and On the program and Said that's that's fine.

We'll find a time once. I'm back in town long enough to line it up. We'll have them on the program and do that, but you know right now. It's yes eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one.

Don't know what in the world you have to say about tonight's subject. You know. But there's there's the number and let let me know. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. Let me know yes, no, or maybe here as quickly as you can and channel because yeah, there's there's number just posted for you because.

If that if I said something ridiculous. Then then fine. Yeah, I did say we'd set up a specific show for us to discuss the candy apocrypha. I'm not talking about the apocrypha tonight I'm just quoting you this is ridiculous.

What's ridiculous about it? That's you know if you're gonna make that kind of statement. That's I'd hey I open the phone lines up for you. I'll let you let you have the let you have the opportunity well anyways.

So I just provide this this brief response. There wasn't much new In this and to be honest with you. I just don't know. Yeah, no, thanks. Well I Wish he was taking live callers until he starts to do so then then we don't want to do that anyways.

There's nothing much new here, and I don't know how long this is going to last. I really don't there's there's. You know I think on the Catholic answers program with the admission that I didn't talk to him.

I didn't run a you know I There were there was admissions of really having major holes as far as knowing really what I believe. And we've documented all that there. Just isn't much farther that this can go and Again I I feel sorry for the Roman Catholic apologists who have utilized this story.

It's it's. We had a guy come in the channel in ERC some up in Nebraska. I think it means Nebraska Roman Catholic Nurk I'm not sure if he's ever pronounced his nick to know what now strange it sounds, but Nurk came into apologetics, and we would ask questions and His response would be yeah, well your sister came home.

Well. That's very interesting, but did you know that Pope Gregory the Great? Rejected the apocryphal books. Yeah, well your sister found out. What's true. Well. That's very interesting. But what do you think about Pope Honorius and his teaching of monothelitism as the Bishop of Rome?

Yeah, well I saw your sister on EWTN. I mean, that's the level of you know I It's just it just makes you go. Okay. Well. We're not gonna get too far with this particular discussion are we? You know there's been a little bit of that not as much as I had expected.

But there's been a little bit of that. I don't know how much farther. It's gonna go. But when claims are made and the one thing that struck me and struck everybody in listening to both conversion stories.

And I'll admit it's a it's an hour-long program. You could good have could have gotten into a lot. But they didn't. There was so little theology. The Anglican who became Roman Catholic mentioned Roman Catholic claims about apostolic succession a few things like that but actually to really Get into the text do something say well, I discovered that I was wrong about this or you know There was none of that and as I've listened to conversion stories.

Unless it's the conversion story of some some Apologists you know people like Roberts and Genes who would at least get into some text, but still it's so surface level and It demonstrates these folks did not take the time to find out The sources that are out there.

The the goods and the Whitaker's and the salmon's and and the the modern writers like dr. Svensson and Bill Webster and David King and the material, but it's just like it's it it didn't didn't exist and I get the feeling they don't have any interest in looking now either.

Which is a very very very interesting thing. Well anyways, there is a brief response to the abundant life program That aired on EWTN. I would hope that If you're listening on Saturday, you're turning in and you listen normally on Saturday Saturday afternoon.

That you will pray for us because this weekend of the normal broadcast. I'll be ministering Saturday night Sunday morning. Not scheduled Sunday evening right now. But I I may actually get an opportunity to just sit in the audience and enjoy listening to Steve camp sing that's going to be great, but Steve camp and I are gonna be doing a bunch of stuff together and pray for us pray that the congregations will be visiting in will be I Have nothing to call it oh Man keep the log of this one.

Yeah. Those of you who are not in channel must wonder at times I just played a little pop-up there for everybody who wants to see that. You must wonder what goes on sometimes. But it can be an interesting interaction when you're talking to folks and in the channel and seeing what's going on but anyways pray for us as we're ministering back there and in the Projects we have coming up.

We have right now. We have a minimum of six debates next year next year this year with two other possibilities sort of bubbling and that's That would be an all-time record. I mean eight debates in a year would be one every six weeks.

As well as trying to teach and and one book one long chapter the book with Dave hunt. I mean Yikes we're We're doing everything we can to keep putting out the best Best information we can so pray for us that the Lord will give us strength and Keep our families safe and our health going.

That's the most important thing for sure. So anyway, thank you very much for listening today and We will not be on for the 25th of January but Lord willing. Oh, wait a minute. Oh I'm in Omaha, Nebraska.

I will be at about 30 ,000 feet on February 1st. So we need to We need to see now. Here's where I will also utilize the channel. There are two folks in channel right now and in fact, let me scroll down here and see if it's actually three there's two folks in channel right now and We can now utilize the pressure of the channel there's two folks in the channel one is using the Nick DK alerts and there's another using the Nick gobbler and They know who they are and they've done the program before and so I'm going to challenge them To be prepared for February 1st to do a live program here on the dividing line and We can let them, you know, maybe they'll want to utilize some of the expertise in the in the channel.