Certainty, the Cost of Abandoning the Created Order, A Dismissal of Presup, & Aquinas on John 10:30

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Only went an hour today but covered a number of topics including some statements by various "progressive" ministers, a passing dismissal of presuppositionalism that said more than its author intended, and finally a quick look at Aquinas on John 10:27 -30.

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00:33
Well greetings and welcome to the dividing line it's late on a Thursday Get used to it because I think starting
00:42
Next week we're gonna be on the road again Just for for one week and then home for a week about 10 days.
00:51
So and then Three weeks on the road and then like almost two weeks home and then over a month on the road
01:00
We'll be going back to G3 so if you've been thinking about coming to the
01:06
Museum of the Bible, I've never been to the Museum of the Bible So that'll be interesting for me But looking forward to just thinking about the
01:16
Bible g3 and That will be in September and then on the way gonna be speaking a number of different places for example in Pennsylvania Chris Arnzen His pastors luncheon be speaking there a number of the churches that he's well
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Chris knows everybody so The church is in that area, which will be interesting for me
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Because I spent six years in the Harrisburg Mechanicsburg Shiremanstown area
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I've told the story before that in 1993 I drove back there Well, actually
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I landed I flew to Philadelphia and I rented a car and I drove Now remember
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I left when I was 11 We we moved 1974 to the
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Phoenix area. I've been here ever since basically makes me a equivalent of a native but anyway and So I had some very formative years in Pennsylvania, I am so thankful for the public education system that existed half a century ago
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Because I was taught how to read and to read well and I that that gave me the foundation for everything else to be perfectly honest with you and When I drove into Mechanicsburg Camp Hill the
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Harrisburg area having not been there in Was that 29 years at that point,
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I think it's about 29 years I Never made a wrong turn
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I Drove to every house. We lived in without ever making a wrong turn. I drove to the
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McDonald's We'd always eat at without making a wrong turn the schools that I went to The church that I went to it
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Was really weird. I Mean, how how is that even possible? Out here in Arizona, it wouldn't be because there would be so much development going on but it's not nearly as much development back east in that way and so anyway
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I'm definitely gonna be trying to get to back to Gettysburg and you try to visit a couple other Battlefield sites since I'm gonna be in the area and So, but I'll be speaking at some churches back there we'll try to have some details as we get a little closer to that period of time
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It's these days. It's always There's a lot of There are there are movements within reformed evangelicalism that borrow from the left's playbook including cancel culture and I'm just simply aware of the fact that there are more and more places
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That if they advertise I'm gonna be speaking or something like that they're gonna get more and more resistance
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More and more pushback. Yeah, you don't really wanna he's yeah, you know, he used to be okay, but not anymore type stuff won't get overly specific, but that's that's how it's how it's working and So, you know you want to you want to let everybody know but at the same time you don't want the local church to have to put up with all the garbage that gets thrown around and It's just the day we live in that's always been an issue, but it's much more so one now
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But anyways, we're gonna be on the road and a lot a lot a lot a lot so Ultraman will be back in the corner
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Because you know Chris on holds gave that to me and you know, Chris is Chris is getting up there now
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I hope he realizes that if I hadn't if I hadn't been sending him elf stuff and retweeting his stuff, you know
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He's gotten some opportunities because you know, we were showing him the love He'd few times wasn't certain that it all that elf stuff really was love
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But now I think maybe in hindsight he's going So so anyways, we'll be on the road and Pray for traveling mercies safety.
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It's a lot of driving and But we're really looking forward to getting a chance to get out there and again as I mentioned the last program
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Redemption Hills Church in Denver. I should have had my Calendar program up here because I didn't give you the details on this.
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No, I do not want to install the update Why does that always work that way I happens to you too doesn't yes it does that will be the 12th and 13th of August August 12 13th
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Redemption Hills Church in the Denver area and I'm looking forward to that because well,
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I always look forward to speaking with Jason Lyle Jason Lyle's smartest man ever met He's also one most humble man ever met.
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He's a complete nerd and geek just like me And so we get along real well along those lines as well and So it's always fun to speak with Jason, but he's gonna do his fractals presentation.
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I've wanted to see that live I'm gonna I'm gonna bring my
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I'll bring my iPad with some of my best fractals on it and I'll just sort of jump up and go look look
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I've been doing this forever And you'll say sit down wait and we'll go from there so anyway
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That's how that's how that's all gonna gonna work out. So And at least for the moment, it looks like the gas supply will be fairly
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Consistent abundant and Maybe a little bit cheaper than it would have been last month
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Still a whole lot more has been in the past, but there you go Whether whether the thin skin of civilization will look well will rupture
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I I don't know you you really do have to do have to wonder Half an hour ago
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Canon press Retweeted a tweet from right -wing watch now.
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I remember when right -wing watch Started and You know, it's spun off into this crazy leftist loony bin stuff, but they have a clip from Doug Wilson and Here's here's what right -wing watch says
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Christian nationalism isn't enough for radical right -wing pastor Douglas Wilson quote
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Many how many of these Christian nations are there supposed to be no set number is given
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But the simple answer is all of them all the nations of man are to be brought into submission to Christ end quote
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Now it's amazing that's that's not what I was raised with I was raised with the idea of Personal evangelism
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Only that's not supposed to the weird thing is looking back on it. I never asked the question
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Well, if you really did that Wouldn't that have a long -term impact on things?
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I mean and You know if you have a really pessimistic eschatology, no Because it's there's always
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You know again from my perspective as I have had my shift in eschatology
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I was reasoning from the bottom going up rather than from the top going down and led to all sorts of weirdness, but Anyway, what
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Doug is saying really catches a lot of people, you know Well, what do you mean all the nations of man are to be brought into submission to Christ?
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well if Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords if Part of the proclamation is that as risen
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Lord all authority has been given to him in heaven and earth That authority is not just a spiritual authority that is basically limited to a small percentage of Humanity, but in fact is the great hope for all of humanity.
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I mean just just think just think about the hopelessness of The world today the hopelessness of secularism.
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What is the answer? Well, we have that answer, but it's amazing that for a lot of folks
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Yeah, but you know, it's not really for all nations it's you know
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No, it is and Blesses a nation whose God is Yahweh Sin is reproach to any nation and so if you don't want your nation experiencing reproach before the
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Holy God, then There's only one message that's gonna change hearts and minds, huh? And that's really scary to secularists because They want to control hearts and minds
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They want to determine what hearts and minds can believe and think but the problem is they've got no power outside of simple blunt force trauma
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That's all they've got. They can't change hearts. They can't change minds They can't they can't change a heart of stone into heart of flesh
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They can't cause people to love one another They can't cause people to to sacrifice for one another
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That they've got nothing other than Direct coercion, that's all they got secularism is a horrific dead end and So you can understand why right -wing watch
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Which is a radical left -wing organization thinks that Doug's statement that All the nations of man are to be brought into submission to Christ What else could there be?
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You're either in submission to Christ or you're in rebellion against Christ. It's the myth of neutrality again
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The idea that well, you know, we don't have to really put it that stark contrast you can just they can just be a nation
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They're not really, you know in rebellion or submission. It's one of the two It's one of the two folks that that's all there is to it and In these days you're seeing more and more and more exactly what that means.
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You will celebrate the idea that This eight -year -old
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Boy is actually a girl you will celebrate it or we will ruin you
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There you go, that's That's what these folks are about. So Yeah, Canon Press is going their their quotation
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When they when they quote tweet The right -wing watch is kiss the Sun lest he be angry and you perish from the way
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When his wrath is kindled but a little blessed are they that put their trust in him Psalm 2 2 now, it's the
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King James But at least they did not say Psalms 2 12
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Okay, ah He won't go there, um, I Saw a tweet on the 5th of July, so this is a while ago
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Mont McDonald pastor mont MC it costs you absolutely nothing to call him
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Elliot Page nothing now a bunch of you saw this and you've probably forgotten about But I I clipped that It costs you absolutely nothing to call him
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Elliot Page now if you don't know what it's talking about There was a beautiful young woman
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Named Ellen Page who was an actress very very beautiful young lady, but lacking a proper home foundation and worldview foundation she along with so many others
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Was sucked into the deception and the destructiveness of the transgender insanity and Has Destroyed her body the the term that That even big tech demands that you use is has transitioned.
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There isn't such thing There isn't such thing Even if we could find a way and we haven't done it yet and if we ever do it'll probably be massively destructive cancer causing life -ending and cost
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Who knows how much money? to literally change The DNA structure of every cell in your body, let's say
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Let's say we we found a way to do the A Star Trek thing, you know the transporter thing and And then found a way to I'm sure
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Geordi the Forge could explain it or something Use that to reprogram before you reassemble and Change the genetic structure so that a genetic male
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All of a sudden has changed into a genetic female Even if we did that wouldn't change anything.
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I mean the structures would already exist They would start to malfunction and become diseased and and all sorts of stuff like that.
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There's no such thing as transitioning and The amazing thing is people will tell you you can't talk about stuff like this because People who transition are even more likely to commit suicide.
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So we can't say this if Something makes people more likely to commit suicide that Probably means that there's something wrong with their worldview there's something wrong with how they're looking at the world to begin with and The weakness is in them not what's outside of them
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The disease the evil the rebellion it's in them Not with someone pointing that out.
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That's same thing with the Berkeley law professor Who can't answer direct questions, but can accuse you of being violent if you ask
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Those questions same same mindset that's going on, but you have these quote -unquote progressive ministers
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It costs you absolutely nothing to call him Elliot Page. Actually, it costs you everything. We've discussed this before we've had we've played
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Various people making the argument or read from their books making the argument that this is this is just simply a pronoun generosity
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Compassion whatever terms you want to use no calling her that beautiful young woman
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Elliot Page Honoring the destruction of her body honoring the destruction of perfectly healthy organs honoring self -deception honoring the
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Injection of hormones into the body that everybody knows is not going to result in a longer life that has tremendous ramifications as far as cancer and Every heart disease and everything else down the road
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That's not honoring someone that's not loving someone That costs everything that costs everything so God made
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Ellen Page a Woman and It costs you your honesty as a human being
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This is a Keep going back to it But remember the
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Dalrymple quote that I've read for you probably so many times you haven't memorized now but it was where he was saying that the rhetoric of The Soviet Union was not meant to convince anybody
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Everybody knew they were lying it was meant to force you to lie along with them and a nation of people that can be forced to lie is easier to control than people who will not submit and State the lies and so these quote -unquote progressive
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Pastors are just a part of the part of that process Yeah, it costs you absolutely everything to call her
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Elliot Page that's the reality in regard in answer to mont mcdonald whoever in the world that is and then
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I Had this one come up and I've got it on the screen here.
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And this is the same one we put up before rich Someone named
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Dante Stewart. Now. I don't know who Dante Stewart is and the only reason I saw this is because someone's used a screenshot and Then somebody retweeted that or whatever
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One of the reasons I would never have seen it. Otherwise is once I Saw this and decided that's that's something to that's something to to deal with.
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I went and I Tried to follow some links and the first thing you see is this this tweet is not available or Something like that.
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And so you use the incognito window and it comes up and you go I wonder why it's not available and then you start doing a search and lo and behold, it's not long before you discover that you're blocked and I am blocked by Dante Stewart.
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Do I know who Dante Stewart is? No now does he know who I am? Probably not So, how'd
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I get blocked? Well, there are these apps there are these services evidently that you can go
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I want to block everybody who follows this person and if you're in that person's follow list, you just get blocked automatically
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So a lot of times people say I've never even interacted this person. How? how did this happen and The the answer is they're just using one of these services.
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There are there they're using the stereotype thing I don't want to even have to risk the possibility of hearing from someone
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Who has this mindset and so it's just blanket, you know banning
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He wrote the greatest threat to Christianity is not secularity. I would assume
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That he means secularism The secular worldview which is the greatest
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Denial of all the Christian faith of everything in Jesus stood for It is certainty
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When you are so convinced that you are right Then you will create all types of enemies and cut yourself off from all the ways
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God is active in another person's experience I did respond to this
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I Took the time we'll go ahead and bring it down I took the time to go to the scriptures and Read from Luke chapter 1
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When Luke began his account He said in as much as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us
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Just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word It seemed fitting for me as well having investigated everything carefully from the beginning to write it out for you in consecutive order most excellent
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Theophilus So that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught the exact truth about the things that you have been taught and The there are two terms epit epinos
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Epinos Which can be translated certainty and Asphalion Which can be translated as safety assurance certainty so Luke is saying to Theophilus that the reason that I'm writing this to you is so that you may have certainty the very thing
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That we're told is the greatest danger to Christianity is the thing
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That Luke says I want to I want to provide by giving you This accurate account of what happened not only in the life of Jesus, but then in volume 2 called
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Acts the Acts of the Apostles the foundation beginning the church These we are told are a great danger to us all it's
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You just can't make these things up so Dante Stewart someone you probably would not benefit from Listening a whole lot to so Then I got this brief clip that again
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Twitter's useful Twitter's useful you you follow a couple hundred people There are certain people out there that post, you know, there's some people who put a lot of time at the posting stuff both preacher clips and bad preacher clips and and stuff like that and Sometimes can't even keep up with all the stuff that they crank out and I don't remember who posted this
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But you've got capturing Christianity Interviewing Inspiring philosophy
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Inspiring philosophy is being interviewed by capturing Christianity since we're using as Spider -man said that we're using our made -up names now, this is toward the end the program
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I'll be honest with you. This gentleman looks bored out of his mind he's sitting there sort of slouched down in a white t -shirt and It's toward the end of the program, so let's say
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That his answer to this question May have reflected the fact that he was pretty much done
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It could have been a long day. Maybe he was tired. There's there's lots of options
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I suppose But it's one of those things where you've got these super chat things in YouTube I guess where you can make money and someone does a super chat
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And so if they do a super chat and they get a question asked I've done a lot of interviews where you know questions came in via super chats and stuff like that My recollection
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I've never gotten a red thin scent From anything called a super chat
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Or anything else we've always paid the phone bills so people could call in to us and we were doing that kind of thing but anyway,
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I Listened to this and so someone named
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Torio Had done a 4 .99
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euro super chat Hey at IP inspiring philosophy,
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I just want to know what are your thoughts on presuppositional ism or presuppositional apologetics
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But Looked interesting and So I listened in and that's what we're gonna do we're gonna we're gonna listen in and Let's let's let's hear how it went one from Torio I just wanted to know what are your thoughts on presuppositional ism or presuppositional apologetics?
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I mean, it's it's a waste of time It doesn't I have seen it very I've seen it does not work on a lot of atheists, especially in today's culture
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Maybe one or two. Maybe there are some testimonies somewhere where it worked on somebody, but I have seen very few
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And if you talk to atheists or you listen to some of their hangouts, which I have I've listened to some of their hangouts where they're just doing stuff on YouTube Presuppositional apologetics is a joke to them.
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It is hilarious. They love laughing about it Do you really want to play their game? Okay, it does not work.
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They do not take it seriously Get out of it. Let's just move on you may be convinced by it personally but if you're apologetic needs to actually be affecting the culture and Presuppositional apologetics does not
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I'm sorry if that hurts get on with it. There you have it.
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Okay last so, um, I That is just a complete and utter dismissal, right?
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But I think what was useful is hearing the why so what did you say?
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Well, it doesn't work Um, you might have one or two testimonies, but it doesn't work and I've hung out in atheist chat rooms and in the atheist chat rooms, they laugh at it and So it it just it just doesn't work so just give it up now atheists laugh at everything
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Atheists laugh at the resurrection Atheists laugh at God's law. They laugh at the cross.
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They laugh at the Bible laugh at everything. So if if atheist laughing points is our our
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Goal, they laugh at the gospel. They laugh at everything in Christianity. So I find it really
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Shallow really shallow Um to have that as your standard that well atheists laugh at it atheists
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I have heard atheists laugh at everything Did y 'all see the debate we did with with the atheists in Salt Lake City Yeah, okay
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There there you go there They can laugh at anything. So that's it. That's irrelevant Because atheists will laugh at him and they'll laugh at his evidentialism.
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They'll laugh at his arguments. So atheist laughter is not relevant to the real issue
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Which should be well, what is consistent? with the biblical revelation of who man is who
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God is what the gospel is and what the purpose of Apologetics is in the first place and this is where theology matters
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This is where theology matters because if you're going to say just just give it up just get out just forget it's it's worthless
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It should be pretty simple for someone who's gonna make that kind of sweeping generalized statement to provide something more in the way of sound reasoning there was no sound reasoning that that was the thing is
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Is that Okay, you You think you're inspiring philosophy?
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Okay, then why didn't you give any meaningful response to that question? That was childish.
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It was surface -low now
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Did I get the feeling that? He had read any of this stuff
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No, I didn't get that feeling or if it did with any any level of Concern any level of listening?
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Maybe maybe there's something maybe there's some stuff in here That is worth is worth thinking about, you know,
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I mean, there's been a lot of people who've come to those conclusions I mean, I You know,
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I just opened up to page 102 So then the Christian apologist whose position requires him to hold the
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Christian theism is really true And as such must be taken as a presupposition which alone makes the acquisition of knowledge in any field intelligible
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Must join his friend and his hopeless gyration so as to point out to him that his efforts are always in vain
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We cannot prove the existence of beams underneath the floor if by proof we mean that they must be
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Ascertainable in the way that we can see the chairs and tables in the room But the very idea of a floor as the sport of tables and chairs requires the idea of beams that are underneath This is interesting
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I I Went from one yellow marker that you can tell
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I did this Many many years ago 30 some odd years ago or more to another marker that actually
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Stand stood the the test of time. It's interesting how that Actually, the paper on this one's pretty good in comparison to some anyway, um
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I We have so many Quote -unquote former
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Presupposition this guy doesn't claim to be a former presuppositions But there are so many others that have decided that now that they're classical theists that they're not
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Presuppositional us anymore and when I hear them giving their reasons why I go I'm glad you've moved there because you never was you never were one being in with he didn't understand what the issues actually were but Has he has he read something like this
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Ben Till's apologetic by Monson readings and analysis, maybe maybe frames work
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Maybe all offense Covenantal apologetics work. Maybe that No, I didn't get that feeling because you know these guys that are the big philosophers
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You would think that it would be really really easy to Do something more than that kind of simplistic dismissal or the angry stuff that you get from Young Christian intellectuals new
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Christian intellectuals, whatever they think they are You know the These these just brilliant young guys that You never see them out doing much, but they're they're big and Facebook and things like that When you when someone asks a question like was asked in that video clip
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Minimally you would think that a Christian response. Let's say let's say you reject presuppositionalism
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Would be a to accurately define What presuppositionalism is if you want if you want your audience?
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To hear what you're saying and to be benefited by it and to To really learn why they should avoid this
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You're gonna want to define it. I don't hear people doing anything other than repeating
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Accusations as if their definitions He didn't even try to define it You notice that there was there was not a word of definition
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So you don't even know what he's rejecting or and you also don't even know if he knows what he's rejecting which
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I have no reason to believe he does but There was no No, not even an attempt to go.
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Well first we need to understand that, you know, the issue here is Starting points starting points for epistemology starting points for how we know we know and Key to all of this is the assertion by the presuppositionalist that if you live in God's universe
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Then he being the creator becomes the ground of knowledge and That you cannot give a rational defense of How you know in God's world
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That does not begin with him as the creator Because he didn't make mankind as the center point of the universe
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He is the center point of the universe. It is by knowing him that we can know truth and Further the presuppositionalist is likewise saying that there is a fundamental
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Problem with mankind That is mankind Suppresses the knowledge of God the knowledge of God gets through but it is suppressed by man and Man must be faced
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With his own Existential situation that he is a creature who is suppressing the knowledge of his creator and The presuppositionalist is saying if you buy your very form of argumentation
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Grant to the unbeliever grant to the rebel sinner the validity of his rebellion
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Then you are handing to him the methodology of His own self -defense he is in fact a
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Creature that has climbed up onto the throne of the Creator and is demanding to be treated as if he is the judge
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You're you're actually saying to him. Yeah, you you go ahead and you you judge and I'll give you more and more truth for you to suppress
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Because you're already suppressing you already know God exists. You're already suppressing that I'm gonna give you more stuff to suppress
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And maybe someday you'll just get tired of doing it That's What what we're doing when we grant to the rebel sinner his autonomy and when you do apologetics as if this person is morally neutral or as if this person is not
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Suppressing the knowledge of God or as if this person has sufficient ground in and of himself
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While rebelling against God to make sense of God's world There you go, what what are you gonna do?
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So it goes back to what your theology is if if if your theology of mankind is such that that man you embrace some kind of Arminian concept of prevenient grace and You know
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Reformed writers talk about prevenient grace they never mean it the same way the Arminians do I Was reading
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Oh Warfield I was reading some
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Warfield just yesterday and He was contrasting The Semi Pelagian ism of Rome versus the
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Reformation and he was Talking about prevenient grace coming from God In the
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Reformed system and what he meant by that was the grace That prepares
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The grace that sustains the elect until the point in time when their regeneration is is decreed by God, etc
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Etc. He was not talking about the kind of prevenient grace that the
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Wesley Arminian has Which sort of brings everybody back to a moral neutral point and then leaves it up to them so their free will can do
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What their free will is gonna do So there's different usages of that term you need to keep that in mind as you're seeing it being used anyway
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Theology matters and so if you're a Wesley Arminian if you're any type of synergist
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I have seen synergists Fall into presuppositional ism, but they can't stay there forever
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It's it's inconsistent Because they recognize if they're out there doing this they recognize the in the impact of sin they recognize the fallenness of man they recognize that these people are suppressing the knowledge of God and so They see the truthfulness of what
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Romans 1 says and that we have to deal with that and that you can't just Hand over the ground and pretend you have a
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Neutral moral ground that you can stand on with an unbeliever. There is no neutral moral ground There is there's there's no neutrality in God's creation.
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Everything says made by God Everything The the connection point is not a is not neutral ground it's the fact they're made in the image of God and they're they're suppressing that knowledge that that's where the connection is and That's where you can trust the
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Holy Spirit to then utilize that message that is that is yours so none of this comes out in this kind of simplistic dismissal and You can just see the reason is the underlying theology is just so flat and unbiblical
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It doesn't work. What do you mean doesn't work? Define work for me
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And I can guarantee you give the guy enough time and he'll he'll define work in a very thoroughly synergistic fashion
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So as we're seeing The there we've been through a period of time when it was cool
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To be a presuppositionalist those days are over Now we're gonna find out who is ever actually understood why this is a consistent system
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We're gonna we're gonna find out who they are and all the other folks that were just trying to be cool Are gonna go on to demonstrate that they never really understood what the primary issues were in the first place and That's not a bad thing
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That's really not it's not a bad thing There's there's there's benefit to those things okay,
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I Do have enough time to get to the on Twitter I mentioned
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Some of the things I wanted to get to and in a second tweet I had said well, you know Maybe we'll get to Talk about a little bit about this as well but When you when we go back to the issue of Thomas Aquinas and the sudden
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Onset of Thomistic theology
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In what were once Some of our more stalwart conservative seminaries and yes,
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I am I am saying To those people who have The authority to interact with and and Speak to the programs and you know graduate programs and things like that in Conservative evangelical seminaries,
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I think you have every reason to Question when for example
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Where oh, I forgot to bring that up. I'm sorry, and it's highly and unlikely that I'll be able to just pop this up, but when you see
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And I but I think I think I already mentioned this On At some point
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I know I did in in Twitter, but there was a announcement in this new classical theology program of a scholarship for Someone to Students to submit papers to compete for a scholarship and the criterion was to imitate as closely as possible the form of argumentation of Thomas Aquinas and I I pointed out that It was only you know a few months ago.
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We had so many people saying it doesn't have anything to do with Thomas The Thomas doesn't really matter.
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You know, we're just we just want to be truly confessional and and so on and so forth and yet Now you're how can you how can you write a paper in defense of a position and Make it sound like Aquinas without spending a lot of time in Aquinas Well, yeah, you that's exactly what what you have to be doing
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But once again, we point out that in discussions that have been going on since December now
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It's pretty much just one side that actually quotes from Aquinas And goes, well, isn't that interesting and And So You may recall
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Just a matter of weeks ago barely a month ago probably there was a fair amount of discussion about John chapter 10 verse 30 and Jesus's Statement I and the
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Father we are one and we looked carefully at that and we pointed out the the number of the verb and The relationship remember we put it up on the big board in the other room and we walked through it
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But what I didn't include in that presentation was
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Aquinas's Commentary and I'd like to provide that to you
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Because I think it's fascinating and maybe will help all of us in being balanced because look you can you can read
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Aquinas's commentaries and You will find him saying all sorts of true things and I I said a couple programs ago
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You don't have to turn Aquinas into the worst demon that's ever lived. You don't have to say that everything he ever said was wrong and People try to make it sound like that's what you're doing you just Don't read any of Thomas Aquinas because he was
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Roman Catholic that kind of that, you know, remember this guy, you know Straw man run all over the place.
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He's He's very very active right now He's lost a little weight because he's just running around so much anyway
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You don't have to do any of that stuff. You'll you'll find good things. I Honestly have never ever seen anything in Thomas Aquinas That was biblically true that I hadn't seen expressed better someplace else
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So so all this stuff greatest theologian ever lived. I'm just this like Okay say so But Then you run into stuff like this and Let me just read it for you well, but that's but back up the truck
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I Want you to remember what Jesus is saying verse 27 my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me and I give eternal life to them and they will never perish and No one will snatch them out of my hand.
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My father who has given them to me Is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand
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I and the father we are one Now in verse 29
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The father my father Which has given to me is greater than all
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The word them given them to me is in italics Keep that in mind also keep in mind that Aquinas is not dealing with the
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Bible in its original languages He is dealing with Latin Vulgate That is what he knows and By his point in history and this would continue
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Into the days the Reformation so that became a real relevant issue and would become a big issue of the counter -reformation
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Rome established the text of the of the Latin Vulgate as The text of the church
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That's not the case today Rome is recognized the supremacy of the original languages but you could be lit up on Fire and executed for hundreds of years in Roman Catholic Europe for Daring to question the absolute supremacy of the
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Latin Vulgate So things have changed but Aquinas is dealing with the
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Vulgate. Here's what he says He now proves what he had said above about the dignity of his sheep namely that no one can snatch them from his hand
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His reason is this No one can snatch what is in the hand of my father
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But the father's hand and mine are the same Therefore no one can snatch what is in my hand
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Concerning this he does three things first. He gives the minor premise by showing that the father
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Had communicated divinity to him Saying what my father has given to me through an eternal generation is greater than all
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For as the father has life in himself, so he has granted the son to have life in himself John 5 26
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It is greater than any power. He has given him authority to execute judgment because he is a son of man 527
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It is greater than any reverence and honor God had bestowed on him the name which is above every name that the name of Jesus every knee should bow
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Philippians 2 19 Therefore what my father has given to me that is that I am his word his only begotten and The splendor of his light is greater than all.
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Okay, so again Thomas isn't all that easy to follow so let's apply this
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I give eternal life to them go back to the text. I give eternal life to them and They shall never perish and no one
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Will snatch them out of my hand my father
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Ha that a Kenmoy Pantone my John Esten so the new
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American Standard interprets this as my father who has given them to me is greater than all and No one is able to snatch out of my father's hand.
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I And my father we are one now
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It's it's it's interesting That Aquinas went primarily to John 5
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When the language Goes to John 6 because remember
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In John chapter 6 you have the specific assertion and I Cued this up, but you have the specific assertion all that the father gives me
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And it's it's pawn hot did a sin might so it's very clear
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That John intends the reader to be hearkening back to right there All the father gives me will come to me and the one coming to me.
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I will never cast out So he's come down of heaven not to his own will but the will of the one who sent him and This is the will to him ascend him that of all that he has given me so he not pawn hot that a
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Kenmoy I Lose none of it That can't be deity
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That can't be divinity This isn't be ghetto this is talking about the elect of God and there is in the gospel of John especially
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John 6 John 8 John 10 John 17 this
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Glorious reality of the fact that There is a sovereign
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Transaction it's part of the pactum salutis. It's part of the interaction of the divine persons and again when you when you
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Say the only way that you can distinguish between father son and spirit is Add intra you destroy all this.
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You just you flush it down the toy D You can't have any of this stuff going on.
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You can't have the Sun voluntarily doing things You can't you can't have the father giving a people to the
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Sun But it's right there and it's beautiful I'm not willing to give it up.
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I Isn't amazing I'm literally having to say to my fellow foreign brother, I will not give up the beauty of the fact that the father
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Gives a particular people to the Sun entrust them to the
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Sun to be their perfect Savior and he can be their perfect Savior because he's God in the flesh and He has the power
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To save them to the uttermost. I thought we all Believed this stuff
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Anyway, so this is where it's going to That of all these give me
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I lose none of it But raise it up on the last day all the father gives me will come to me. So you have this beautiful relationship between the father and the son and so My father who has given them to me is the obvious understanding
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But Thomas doesn't even go there instead as I said what he's what he ends up saying is
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That concerning this as really he gives He gives the minor premise by showing that the father had communicated divinity to him
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Saying what my father has given to me is greater than all then all what?
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In the context The father is greater than all no one can snatch them out of the father's hand So there is no power that can snatch from the father's hand
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But John chapter 10 is not saying my hand and the father's hand are simply one hand
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Because the father has given The people the elect people to the
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Sun we are united with the Sun. He is the God man We are in him ten times in Ephesians chapter 1 in him in him in the beloved one, right?
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Are we getting rid of that now? Hope not. I'm not you shouldn't either but in him so there is a distinction that is drawn and it's a beautiful distinction and it's central to the gospel and so The the interpretation gives therefore what my father has given to me
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That is that I am his word is only begotten and the splendor of his light is greater than all well
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The Sun is all those things but that's not what this passage is talking about That's not what this text is talking about so, how does he come there because he has an external system that he has developed that is
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The Determinative factor in his exegesis and if this is
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Great tradition exegesis, which we're told we're supposed to be doing and if this is pre -modern exegesis how come
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I can poke holes in it so easily and if I can do it then one this
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Pentecostals can do it and subordination is can do it and Mormons can do it and Muslims can do it and and Yeah, I've debated all those folks
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So I see how they could do it. Well, but but he said good things someplace else fine
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I don't agree with every single comment that John Calvin makes or whatever else, but the fact the matter is
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That when you look at this interpretation it just completely misses the point of the text and leaves us
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Someplace that well and it leaves us without That beautiful transaction between the
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Father and the Son and is it Is someone looking to tell me? Well, we don't really need to worry about that.
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We We have it. We have we've found something more important than that now. Okay I Can I can be very confident that Christ sheep?
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They they see his word and they love his word and they're not gonna go that that I could go that direction so anyway
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Thanks for listening to the program today, even though we went a little bit on the late side. My goodness. It's uh, it's
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What nine o 'clock back back east now for some of you folks that's still early in the evening some of us folks
01:00:07
Thank you for listening to us as you're going to bed For some of us nine o 'clock starting to get into those those
01:00:17
Ready for bed Martha, you know, that's that's certainly where I am. Anyways Got there fast got there fast.
01:00:24
Anyways, hopefully it's useful to you. Thank you for watching the program today Keep us in your prayers, especially as we prepare to head out on the road
01:00:32
That gas ain't gonna be cheap to get to those churches and do the conferences and speaking and hopefully encourage the
01:00:39
Saints so please remember us we need your support continue doing the stuff that we're doing and We will see you