And They Just Keep Getting Longer....

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September 5, 2016

Started off discussing the David Gushee article from a few weeks ago and his very truthful analysis that there is no middle ground on the issue of God's law for the believing Christian. Too bad Dr. Gushee has chosen to be on the wrong side of that divide! Then we watched an entire section of a video from Israel United In Christ (IUIC), one of the Hebrew Israelite camps (the ones who wear purple and gold), where they discuss Vocab Malone and myself as fulfillment of biblical prophecy! Then I was about to play Andy Stanley's sermon from Sunday (well, just a portion), but I decided instead to go the dangerous route and follow a link provided in Twitter to Dr. Frank Turek and Dr. Richard Howe discussing "bad ways" to prove God's existence. Everyone was telling me this would give me background into what Stanley was saying, so we dove in live and responded as we went along. So we will get to the Stanley sermon material on Thursday as we spent the rest of the time on the Turek/Howe discussion.

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00:33: Well, greetings welcome to the dividing line once again many things to get to and one
00:39: I'm just forcing myself to get to before it's such a old news. It's no longer relevant anymore and then we've got we've got
00:48: Andy Stanley again, and we've we've got the IUIC Hebrew Israelites, those are the guys in the purple and gold
00:59: I mentioned vocab and myself in a video recently we're gonna take a look at that and Respond to that as well.
01:07: So lots of stuff to get to so Again, lots of that apologetic stuff, which is sort of what we what we do
01:16: What we do around here. Oh, I just see Lane popped into channel and I thought we were gonna get that the
01:24: Non -debate posted this weekend. That's that that was what I had heard There was more What color is the sky in your world stuff, but other than that Haven't seen the debate actually come up now in regards to The post that mr.
01:42: Tassi put out Late last week Announcing that it would be really released. Yes over the weekend a word of clarification on the dividing line
01:51: Previously I've made mention that it was my understanding that mr Tassi had watched the my
01:57: Romans 9 sir my review of the Romans 9 debate and Was going to take a different approach.
02:02: I misunderstood some things that Lane had said Lane was telling me he he got the feeling and I missed that and So that was a miscommunication between Lane and I mr.
02:13: Tassi never told him that mr. Tassi and his video said that I would never Correct it because apparently We're all a bunch of liars over here.
02:21: Oh, at least I am and so I haven't bothered to listen anymore Yeah, I'm sorry. The man the man is not rational.
02:27: Yeah, well just just for corrective It was my misunderstanding in a conversation that online
02:34: Text actually that I had with Lane. I just simply misread him and I was repeating if you want to put it that way
02:42: Mr. Tassi false information, but it was not malicious and it was not on purpose Okay.
02:48: Yeah. In other words, you gave him more game credit for something that he actually hadn't done It's just Which is what we all did to be very honest with you and that's that's the problem with that particular encounter anyway, once it's posted, you know, we'll link to it and then hopefully
03:06: Never have to think about it again because it's not worth thinking about a couple weeks ago
03:13: August 24th David gushy
03:19: Put out an article now, it's been a little while so we heard much from dr. Gushy Some of you may have never heard of dr.
03:26: Gushy if you're new to the program I Forget when it was it was sometime in 2014. He spoke at Matthew Vines a little get -together and Sometime in 2015 we took the time to respond rather fully
03:45: To Dr. Gushy's presentation. We did we had done with Matthew Vines. We played his entire passionate presentation and we then
03:59: Interacted with it rather fully. I think most people would say that we rather fully refuted the biblical and And Philological philosophical and historical argumentations that were provided by dr.
04:18: Gushy in his presentation and Since then people said hey, are you going to respond you are you willing to debate and dr.
04:26: Gushy has made very clear that that our ilk Are not the people he's wanting to interact with Well since our ilk are conservative
04:36: Bible believing Christians who have actually thought through the issue of homosexuality studied the relevant texts and their backgrounds and read
04:46: Literature on both sides of the issue then evidently his His his ilk are the already committed on the left
04:55: Or those on the right that have never thought these things through which is sort of strange to me
05:01: But be it as it may dr. Gushy has declined Invitations from myself
05:07: Michael Brown dr. Gagnon to actually defend his statements, which generally is indicative of a recognition that you said things that The people you were talking to would like but that you probably wouldn't be able to defend in a meaningful fashion so He puts out an article and Here's here's what and Dr.
05:38: Moller's already responded to this evidently dr. Moller knows dr. Gushy personally I guess they their kids played together
05:44: And they went to the same schools at certain times and live in the same neighborhoods and so on and so forth Middle ground is disappearing on the question of whether LGBT persons should be treated as full equals without any discrimination in society
05:55: And on the related question whether religious institutions should be allowed to continue discriminating do their doctrinal beliefs now immediately the very first paragraph
06:07: Not only shows a capitulation on Gushy's part, but the adoption of the poisoned language that we must when we even have the opportunity, we're generally not even given the opportunity, but we must challenge as Christians as the small minority group
06:25: And we are the small minority group in this country Look look a thinking
06:31: Christian who actually takes the Word of God seriously each and every day Is a small minority?
06:36: No question about it someone who's seriously attempting to Cultivate and to operate on the basis of a
06:48: Christian worldview small small minority Someone who holds a truly
06:53: Orthodox view of Scripture Small minority, and we just have to get up in the morning and remind ourselves of that because the tendency is to is to Pretend that the days of Jerry Falwell and the moral majority are still around well that We knew then that wasn't the case.
07:13: We knew then that was a That was false advertising, but The realities are all around us now the language that is used here
07:25: I want to I need to change actually what I'm Sending over to you because I want to show you something
07:36: This is just something this is something that you you folks need to grab hold of and Be be prepared to present to folks
07:51: Twice once as a noun and once as a verb
07:59: The term discriminate or discrimination Appears in this paragraph middle ground is disappearing the question whether LGBT persons
08:08: Should be treated as full equals without any discrimination in society and on the related question whether religious institutions should be allowed to continue discriminating
08:17: Due to their doctrinal beliefs. Well, what does that word? discrimination Actually mean obviously what has happened and this is something that Serious minded
08:29: Christians You've got to be aware of the fact that those who wish
08:36: Those who cannot win an argument by meaningful argumentation very often win by utilizing inappropriate argumentation one of those ways is by trafficking on the
08:49: Ignorance of most modern Westerners as to the meaning of language linguistics
08:57: The utilization of language. Let me give you let me give you an example that most of you already familiar with When we are attempting to reason with our
09:07: Arminian friends on the nature of biblical election Arminian friends will
09:16: Talk about God's foreknowledge and In so doing they will
09:28: Utilize language That assumes certain things that assumes
09:39: For Some reason this this computer is running very hot at the moment
09:44: I'm gonna have to find whatever process hung so it can it can cool off Well, could you imagine if all said my computer blew up in the middle of the program?
09:52: That would that would how many different religious groups would claim? See see that proves and then they just start the list just goes on our
10:03: Arminian friends Assume a meaning for foreknowledge and then they read that into the text and the
10:14: Assault assumed meaning is God looks down the corridors of time and sees what's going to happen
10:23: The problem is that The actual term is sometimes used as a noun and Sometimes used as a verb and They have almost very very very few of them have ever been challenged by the question
10:43: What's the difference? between having passive knowledge of future events and For knowing something which is an active verb.
10:58: It's not a passive. It's an active verb it's something God does and their assumption is well, all
11:05: God is doing is knowing What's gonna happen in the future which he passively takes in through some
11:14: Element of his nature. He's eternal whatever Their big thing being there's there's no relationship between God's knowledge of future events and his decree
11:25: That forms the very fabric of time itself They don't have said decree and therefore they can't have that kind of a basis
11:31: The problem is that the the verbal form of foreknowing just doesn't have that meaning when
11:37: God foreknows what he foreknows are persons not things and so there you have an example of where by by repetition people bring in and take in a definition and They never they never
11:56: Really think about it, and if they never really have dialogues outside of their own their own group then
12:06: They may never ever be challenged To to think through that particular subject well in our society today
12:17: You cannot discriminate This is this is the ultimate evil
12:25: We have laws against discrimination there can be no discrimination. What does discrimination mean?
12:33: evidently for those on the left They can discriminate against those on the right with impunity
12:41: But those on the right cannot discriminate against anyone at all well, what does it mean well for most people discrimination is something like racism or prejudice or something like that Some unfair treatment, but is that what discrimination means the answer of course is no and Just so that you can see that it's not me making up issues here
13:13: I have here in my Logos library Lewis and Short's Latin Dictionary, and I I didn't write this this is a
13:24: Standard reference source to the Latin classical Latin meaning of words and Unfortunately you know in generations past it was
13:40: Common to learn things like Latin Because so many of our words
13:45: Come to us from Latin or Greek in fact. It was only a hundred years ago that almost
13:52: Everyone who made it to any advanced level of education at all
13:59: Was it minimally exposed to the reality of the fact that our language is
14:06: Obviously one that has developed over time and is deeply indebted in Primary Most fundamentally to Latin and to Greek now of course those languages then
14:20: Influenced French and German and and English is just a mishmash of all sorts of things that have gotten put together and mixed up in a bowl of big old bowl without any any
14:34: Real order to it at all which is what makes English such a difficult language to learn for other folks because of things like that anyway
14:42: Discriminate Here on the screen you have discrimin discriminous
14:50: Literally an intervening space interval distance division separation
14:57: Okay, so to separate them all right but most frequently in general a distinction a difference a distinction and a difference to recognize a distinction and a difference between things
15:19: So in particular With respect to disputed matters which would be distinguished between and thus decided upon a decisive point turning point critical moment determination decision
15:31: All right, so this is what is the basis of discriminate discriminalis that serves to divide
15:45: Discriminatum With a difference or distinction discriminatio the contrast of opposite thoughts discriminator one who distinguishes or discriminates and the feminine form as well, so The word simply make means to make a division to make a decision between two different things and On any logical basis, which is no longer the priority of thought in Western society
16:21: We discriminate every single day you might want to take that down we discriminate every single day
16:31: If I go to lunch today I'm going to You know, let's say
16:38: I Decide to go to Subway rather than to Arby's I have discriminated in favor of Subway and Against Arby's I've made a decision
16:57: If I choose to take One road going north rather than another road going north
17:05: I have discriminated I I discriminated when I chose what clothing
17:11: I was going to wear today It's simply making decisions it's choosing between things and when it comes to morals and ethics it means that you have an ethical system and These are good things and these are bad things and you discriminate between these things and so Our society has no basis for continuing to do this in a consistent way, but our society still discriminates against pedophiles
17:45: Now we again no basis for doing so anymore there just isn't the the foundations for the decriminalization and destigmatization of pedophilia already in place
17:58: It's it the articles are already coming out. It's just a matter of time. It's just a matter of time
18:05: But in general we still discriminate we make a decision between two things and we say this is not good and this is good and So when you look back at the at the language that is being utilized here
18:26: LGBT persons without any discrimination in society so society Cannot make a decision so in other words what's being said here is
18:34: Society is going to force everyone within it to identify
18:44: Homosexuality bisexuality and transgenderism because that's what LGBT means These things must be viewed as good things
18:53: Positive things things to be celebrated. That's what
19:01: And and you will be discriminated against you will the society will choose against you
19:07: If you do not consider those things to be good positive Values and So without any discrimination society and on the related question of whether religious institutions should be allowed so the society now
19:25: We're being told Has the authority to define for religious institutions
19:34: How they will make their decisions concerning what's right and wrong should be allowed to continue discriminating due to their doctrinal beliefs
19:44: So from the very beginning gushy is saying yep society has the right to tell religious institutions what they should consider to be right or wrong and Though this society was founded
19:59: Upon religious liberty and Founded in its laws upon acceptance of the
20:05: Judeo -christian worldview that specifically says everything in LGBT is wrong
20:12: Since we His Element of what would be called
20:19: Christianity has collapsed on that has just has just like a house of cards
20:25: Has abandoned the historical consensus any meaningful biblical exegesis and Will not even defend those things.
20:34: It's just hey, we're winning this We've we've got this one. And so the last thing we want to do is to Put ourselves in a position of actually having to defend any of this
20:45: We've got the media. We've got the culture the last thing to do now is to actually
20:53: Put ourselves in a position where we could be exposed So from their perspective, you know, don't go there for for love no money, but then these religious institutions
21:09: Will be accused of discrimination and of course Every religious institution must by definition discriminate must make decisions based upon Divine revelation or for those who are secularists or whatever else whatever, you know polls, whichever the way the winds blowing la la
21:32: It turns out that you are either for full and unequivocal Social and legal equality of LGBT people or you are against it and your answer will at some point be revealed
21:45: This is true both for individuals and for institutions. Now, this is nothing new In fact, he he says neutrality is not an option
21:51: Neither is flight half acceptance nor is avoiding the subject high as you might the issue will come and find you This is a substantial change
21:58: The landscape is dramatically different even for when I began working on my book on this subject in the summer of 2014. No, it's not
22:04: No, it's not This has been the way it's been for a long long time. There's never been a third option There's never been a third way.
22:10: There's never been a middle ground. It's never been there people pretended it But as soon as people started trying to actually adopt it if you just Push on it slightly it falls over because it is a house of cards.
22:24: There's this is this has been the case all along and When people tried to use it as a way of siphoning people off Giving them a way to sort of well, let's take the middle because they really weren't comfortable with this idea of homosexuality.
22:39: I mean Anyone who saw that picture, I'm glad it stopped appearing on my
22:44: Facebook feed but of the woman who mutilated her body to pretend to be a man and then got pregnant and So it's this big huge Looks like a guy
23:02: Nursing a baby. I mean did you you you did not see it?
23:08: Well, unfortunately It is burned into my into my retinas And I just kept appearing for a few days on my on my feed this
23:20: Abject blasphemy of nature this this horrific example of child abuse
23:28: Oh the selfishness that the evil it Oh well
23:34: David Gus you doesn't have any I get I how could he say anything about it? He's he's gone he's done throw with He's got nothing to say nothing to say, you know, once you've once you've collapsed it's done.
23:48: Well The society says is seemingly saying to religious institutions now rejoice
23:56: Celebrate or we will come and get you There you go that but that's what that's way it's always been as society will either
24:08: By God's blessing Take his law as guidance or will rebel against it and That's what this society is doing.
24:20: It's rebelling against it and so here
24:30: Openly toward the end openly discriminatory religious schools and parachurch organizations notice discriminatory in other words
24:37: Who hold to biblical foundations and he can't he can pretend
24:43: To argue against that as long as he hides in his little circle
24:49: Knowing that many of us have taken the time to fairly listen to him study his points and then refuted him and He knows this he has no he has no
25:03: Moral grounds. He's an ethicist. He has no moral grounds to Utilize this kind of prejudicial language
25:12: Openly discriminatory religious schools in other words religious schools with a backbone and parachurch organizations will feel the pinch first Any entity that requires government accreditation
25:22: You hearing this or touches government dollars will be the in the immediate line of fire
25:29: Yep, been saying this for a long time some organizations will face the choice either to abandon discriminatory policies or risk potential closure so Follow us
25:39: We will tell you what to believe not that Jesus guy not that Bible no more religious freedom
25:46: Ultimate good in this society is to celebrate sexual perversity. That is absolutely what it must be
25:55: Others will simply face increasing social marginalization. Yep, the Christian ghetto. It's coming I don't know who's gonna design it
26:02: But there will someday be a Christian version of Facebook because we will be kicked out of Facebook It's gonna happen
26:10: It's gonna happen. Just how can it not? Given the trajectory unless there's some kind of major Well, I suppose a nuclear weapon going off in a major American city would probably be so fundamentally traumatic
26:28: That maybe just maybe if there was enough of a prophetic voice left to say
26:35: America Wake up Judgment is here.
26:41: You're murdering your unborn children. You're perverting marriage. You're perverting sexuality
26:49: Chicago is a war zone That there more people died in Chicago in battles than in Afghanistan over the weekend or Iraq As far as I know
27:03: As far as our troops are concerned There's a reason for all this
27:10: You can't ask for my blessings when you refuse my call to repentance can't do it So maybe something like that might actually
27:20: Galvanize things enough for people to start going, you know We're going the wrong way here.
27:25: This we are we and people know they know this is a revolution It's a sexual revolution, it's a moral evolution ethical legal and people know
27:38: That we've pretty much just torn the Constitution to shreds and it's irrelevant any longer.
27:43: They know that Maybe that would do something but I then again, it might not
27:51: I don't know a vast host of neutralist avoidist or de facto discriminatory institutions and Individuals will also find they can no longer finesse the
28:01: LGBT issue Space for neutrality or mild discrimination will close up as well
28:06: Sometimes society changes and it marks decadence other times society changes it marks progress
28:11: Those who believe LGBT equality marks decadence are being left behind well
28:19: Left behind by a society Clearly under the massive judgment of God and David Gushy has so lost his biblical orientation
28:29: He can't even see it anymore. He can't even see it anymore What should be obvious to him?
28:35: What should be obvious to anyone with any biblical grounding? Not there anymore.
28:41: You can't see it. They don't they don't they don't see it but he's there wasn't much to argue about he's exactly right and given his
28:53: Acceptance of and his his promotion of The LGBT position well reality is he's got no one to blame but himself
29:06: Because eventually even even the Narrow what he would call covenantal restrictions that he places upon You know monogamy for example, you know,
29:20: I could be able to continue to teach that kind of thing once you once you have the society the right to To do the things that evidently he thinks society should be doing
29:30: They'll come after him someday too, and then he's got no place to go Because he's already compromised.
29:36: All right want to talk about that had that on the list for a long time and Finally got around to it now
29:43: Shifting topics in a major way. I was directed to a video that appeared last week by IUIC Israel United in Christ and again
30:02: The Hebrew Israelite movement is a fractured movement. It is interesting because In my study of Mormonism many many many many years ago
30:17: Decades ago now It often crossed my mind what would it have been like to have
30:28: Been there at that time been there between say 1826 and Joseph Smith's death and to to have been able to observe the evolution of What becomes a major American cult
30:51: What what would we have seen and And What would we have liked to have seen change in the kind of Reaction that Smith's Spinning off into heresy
31:10: Actually Provided you know as people saw him doing that what kind of reactions did he get and could there have been better reactions?
31:19: It might have Might have changed things. I mean I'm only speaking from a human perspective
31:26: But Obviously the interactions of the Mormons with others around them weren't all that positive and I would blame the
31:33: Mormons primarily for that But at the same time How many people even saw or cared? To see what was going on Now one of the interesting things is almost all
31:46: Religious new religious movements that Survive for any length of period time
31:52: I don't need they need some type of unified foundation If the second and third generations become
32:02: Fractured very frequently these movements die out over time and over a fairly short period of time
32:08: I've used as the example the way international Victor Paul Weir will had a really strong movement there for a while but the second generation there was there was
32:18: Immediate fracturing and so it is all those little groups are now very very little and will probably not have a long life
32:27: In the way that Mormonism has had huge growth over many generations
32:34: If you don't have that second generation strong leadership you had that in Brigham Young Charles Taze Russell judge
32:41: Rutherford were the Jehovah's Witnesses If you don't have that if you have immediate schisms causes a problem well
32:52: When I started having people asking me questions, have you heard about this Hebrew Israelite movement? Yeah, what do you want to say about that?
32:59: no, I hadn't for a long long time hadn't heard about then started hearing these little rumblings and and Like many of you that the first I started hearing about in any serious sense was when vocab
33:09: Malone started Talking about it on Apollo gear radio and and stuff like that and and you all know what came of that with the with the debate and and Then the follow -up debate and and YouTube videos full of me with horns and all the rest that kind of stuff and and You know on one level you just have to chuckle.
33:32: I mean, it's it's just so childish The the YouTube videos of horns and flames and things like that It's hard to take anything like that overly seriously because it's just so infantile and it's just not even worthy of really thinking too much about it, but but there are folks out there that really
33:50: Think that that's that's cool stuff. And in fact, I was sent a link to a Video last week.
33:57: I don't think I told you about this, but Someone put up a link with one of these older Fighting videos
34:09: You know where two people are fighting and and then you can have fatalities and stuff like that and get pretty gross
34:14: Well what somebody had done is they had Done this with vocab and I oh
34:20: You did see it. Oh Where we're being decapitated it disemboweled, you know
34:26: So and they've put our faces on the victim that is getting chopped up and stuff like that And you know and I again
34:32: I I sit there going what kind of a person Spends their time
34:39: Creating videos like this What kind of a life does someone like that have and if we're talking about Someone who even on on a minor level considers themselves to be taking the
34:54: Bible seriously Real problems real real problems there.
35:00: Well One of the first things that's so difficult to grab hold of is all the camps all the camps
35:10: Almost all the camps consider all the other camps to be apostates or false teachers or whatever
35:16: There's there's a lot of you know, you've only got so much as far as a Audience is concerned there.
35:22: And so once you try to carve out your own Identity it's real easy to Become rather passionate about the issue and to be pretty nasty and So this this happens a lot between these groups and Trying to get a handle on exactly what identifies each one of these groups, you know
35:48: It seemed to me that the GMS group the great millstone group Had a lot of representation at least in what was appearing on YouTube and so, you know a few weeks ago
35:58: I sort of put the word out I preached a few weeks ago on Deuteronomy chapter 28 and One of the things
36:08: I'm going to do here on the program is I'm gonna go ahead and share some of that so that Because I know a lot of people are starting to expend the effort to go find the sermon
36:18: And so we're gonna need to spend some time. Maybe maybe that's what I'll do on Thursday is I'll You know make a note to myself and we'll spend some time
36:27: Looking very carefully at Deuteronomy chapter 28. Why? one of the key prophetic texts about The people of Israel going in ships to Egypt being sold into slavery and we'll see this is what proves that our whole paradigm is
36:46: Correct and and all the rest that stuff and and so I was looking for someone from GMS because they seemed to sort of be the loudest
36:56: To engage on that particular subject to Get into the text and engage on that particular subject well, some of you saw the what minute and a half video that the primary
37:09: GMS guy put out not interested not interested. Okay there's another guy who's not
37:18: GMS that we may end up doing some I'm just not so sure because He Evidently has some
37:25: Greek. I'm sorry some Hebrew ability Hopefully real Hebrew not the faux
37:31: Hebrew Hebrew the of so many of the groups They sort of made it up as they've gone along Real Hebrew but unfortunately,
37:40: I've been told that he's he's into Gamot Rhea and Kabbalah and all this mystical
37:49: Jewish Well, just Jewish mysticism and I'm really not interested in arguing
37:56: Jewish mysticism. It's you know if Well, we'll see. We'll see if something works out.
38:02: Anyway in the midst of all this some of you will remember that vocab mentioned the
38:09: IUIC when we were talking here in studio and He said these guys are really organized they have a strong focus upon The idea of doctrinal consistency through their various groups and they're the ones that wear
38:38: Purple and gold Now I'll just be perfectly honest with you I know they're gonna watch this and that this will probably end up on a big screen at one of their meetings sometime or something like that I don't have anything personal against, you know school uniforms
38:58: And You know if y 'all want to do a color scheme type thing, well, okay, but The the metallic gold stuff it just It makes it a little bit hard to take what you're saying overly seriously when you look like the purple
39:22: Power Rangers You really do. I mean, I'm sorry, but you got to understand it just where are you getting this from?
39:30: I Like I said the the the value that the video value the we're about to watch not not bad
39:39: But it it just it seems like all that capital gets blown away by the purple
39:46: Power Ranger thing you know and and It's just it's just sort of hard to take overly seriously at that point
39:53: It really really is but one of the things that you we will see here when I play this Is that these gentlemen honestly believe?
40:03: That what's going on on this program this little webcast
40:10: This is a webcast that we've never spent a dime promoting That what's going on in this webcast is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy
40:22: Who knew? See once you get into the mindset of these groups where you you believe that You are the the center and the focus of Of Well of what
40:41: God's doing today and since you're such a small group then The the the mindset this creates is you start looking through Scripture and what it was originally about becomes irrelevant its original language comes irrelevant all rules of meaningful hermeneutics are off and what you can do is
40:57: You can find you everywhere Everything's about you and once you adopt that view of Scripture Scripture can no longer function in any way to Bring correction because it's all about you.
41:17: Anyway, this is a an abuse of Scripture All the cults abuse
41:25: Scripture and this is a primary way that they do so when you turn the
41:32: Scriptures into your personal little playground Where you find in them all these esoteric meanings?
41:40: Related to what you're doing or what your opponents are doing to you or whatever else
41:46: You have demonstrated that you don't care What the Scriptures actually are saying
41:53: You don't care what they originally said and you don't care to allow God to speak in the
41:59: Scriptures You've decided what God can and cannot say because you're no longer listening to what the
42:05: Scriptures say You are making the Scriptures to become your mouthpiece to promote you and your group or whatever else it might be
42:12: And that's exactly we see here. And so When I was first linked to this
42:19: I started it's a two -part when the nation's why do the nation's rage and I listened to the first part
42:27: Audio. Well, actually I listened to all of this audio. In fact, I'd even put together a Audio portion this this in audio in audio notetaker and then the video came out and so I can show you the video instead but That's what had preceded this
42:46: Was this very seriously telling everybody folks you need to understand what's going on here is vitally important We are fulfilling scriptural prophecy here.
42:55: What's happening to us and the opposition we're receiving and what these other groups are doing This is this is all you know they're going through Nehemiah and then they'll go over and they'll read from an apocryphal book and and they'll just Grab all this stuff and just throw it all together and it's all about us and that man that really you need do not underestimate the kind of Community idea that this creates
43:25: If you really become convinced that you're a part of the group That is the fulfillment of scripture that no one could have seen for over 2 ,000 years
43:37: Wow that makes that gives you a really a feeling of being really special and That's what you've got going on here.
43:46: So Let's take a look at What appeared here?
43:53: From IUIC and Obviously, we'll be commenting on it as we as we go along here.
44:00: Let's Let's go Now following that you have these group known as the apologetics
44:07: That steps in the scene all of a sudden. They've been around for a while, but we they managed to you had a guy vocab
44:15: Malone. Can I go ahead? I'm not sure if vocab wants that frozen there, but um
44:25: Gentlemen, I realize that interaction with people outside your movement is a new thing
44:32: That it's not something you're accustomed to but We are not known as apologetics
44:39: I Am NOT an apologetic apologetic, I don't even know how to Apologetics is a field of study like biology or Linguistics if you
44:58: Study linguistics. You're a linguist if you study apologetics. You're an apologist and So when you say this group called apologetics
45:12: You're showing a fundamental misunderstanding of language history
45:20: Any meaningful study of Philosophy the whole field of apologetics whatever else will be and the irony here is what you're doing for your people is a is to engage in apologetics you're trying to give your people a
45:37: Defense of your position that that's what apologetics is and that makes you an apologist not an apologetic
45:45: So I've noticed that all of the BHI groups Don't get this and they're using even the very term apologetics
45:56: In a fashion that demonstrates they've never read a book about apologetics. It gives any of the background or anything like that So just just a word of you know, you can take it or leave it.
46:07: You'll probably leave it Given how many times I've tried to point out to people. It's the book of Revelation Etc, etc
46:14: You can you can take or leave the factual information it's up to you whether you want to do but you just need to recognize
46:23: Combining that with the purple and gold not not a good combination not a good way to start really isn't
46:30: James White he had a debate with a recently with an elder up a camp or whatever people had their own feelings about it
46:37: Whether it's positive or negative light, whatever. That's not really our issue But that Debate between those two made a lot of got a lot of attention.
46:46: Now check this out None. Yeah, as long as you still see it, man, they've got the they've got the why don't we have some kind of cool thing?
46:55: Down at the bottom we could be we could be running Advertisements for you know
47:01: Stuff that we're doing or the newest what we do. It's it's right there. Isn't that really like cool?
47:07: It's got our website and but but it does it doesn't move It's not animated.
47:13: It doesn't change and and have graphics going across and stuff like that Well, this is sort of like 2002
47:24: You know, this is this these guys are 2016 man, you know cuz it's gonna it's gonna change to something else and all sorts of fun stuff like that So I'm just hey,
47:33: I'm giving them props that they've got really good technical value You know, they got they got they've got folks that okay are are are really into doing.
47:45: Oh I'm sorry. Are you I'm gonna have to call out Haseem the king of graphics and yeah,
47:53: I've got you something I just wanted to point it out. You know, it's it's pretty cool. All right, we continue on And so this book this dude named vocab
48:03: Malone starts doing is presently doing research about the black
48:08: Hebrew Israelite Movement and or it originated from and who are the camps and how many camps there are and this camp?
48:17: I'm still one to ten how they conduct themselves like a whole Analysis check this out like a threat assessment if you will
48:23: That's what they're doing. They're filling us out and he made mention to of our camp I want someone to focus on he may mention that he may mention of you know, so they're searching around for some kind of public domain video of Someone.
48:38: Oh, oh What's what's vocab doing? He's he's working on a degree and To work on a degree.
48:48: You've got to do research and so You I would think that there would be a level of hey, you know what?
48:58: isn't it nice that someone's actually taking the time to talk to people and to read books and To to do research to actually dig into stuff rather than just simply dismissing or you know, it's like when
49:15: I Debated At the
49:23: CRI thing Robert Price I was I knew it had a start with a P but somehow
49:29: I had Parker and it isn't when I debate Bob Price vast majority of Folks involved in apologetics just dismissed him just after so far off the off the beaten track that you know
49:44: I actually, you know listened to his debates and his lecture series and read his stuff and you know
49:52: Read the secondary sources the Dutch radicals and all the rest of stuff He was so appreciative of the fact that someone actually engaged him and his views rather than just simply
50:06: Now you can't be right because it is that you know, all right, so I would I would think
50:12: That this kind of study it would be a given if he's gonna be writing on the subject
50:18: You got it got to do your research, but this idea of a threat assessment Why why do you guys think that because we study someone it's because it's a threat assessment
50:28: I mean incubate if you're gonna if you're gonna take this if you're gonna follow this All the way down I spend far more time
50:37: I Mean on a on a sliding scale. I spend far more time looking at textual critical issues
50:46: Translational issues manuscript issues then I'm looking at Islam. I'm looking at Roman Catholicism, you know all the theological issues with that You're barely on the radar screen at that point
51:00: And the reason you're on the radar screen is because I love seeing people come to know the truth And so if there's something some little thing that I can do to help people
51:10: See where the problems are in what you folks are saying great, but The idea that we're sitting around like like this guy going, oh, what are you gonna chew about these go?
51:23: Oh, man Sorry guys. I know that really fits into the We are the men thing
51:30: But that's it's not really what's going on. Sorry, the James White is a popular of Theologian that has had many debates regarding the
51:40: Bible So vocab alone is his informant and vocab alone is receiving information from Israelites His informants about the movement
51:53: But that guy don't look like no Israelite to me I You've totally misunderstood that's the spy
52:02: I know but he says he's right then he says he's talking to Israelites Yeah, well, but he don't look like an
52:08: Israelite Not no, I don't think they wanted him to look like it is If you get my drift, it's a whole council a whole bunch of Edomites, whatever.
52:18: So by the way, just just so you know Edomite to them is a dismissive term of disrespect
52:27: It would be like us using certain words. Oh, by the way, whoo Warning warning
52:37: There's language and what I'm gonna play today. I can't really believe it out. It's not four -letter
52:44: It's politically incorrect It's the fact that black people call other black people's
52:49: The words that nobody else can call them right now. I consider that racism. I Consider it hypocrisy
52:55: But it's there and so it's not it's not as bad as like you couldn't even show most
53:02: GMS stuff Because of all the four -letter words and f -bombs and so on so forth, but there is some language
53:09: So let me warn you ahead of time I'm glad it
53:14: I'm glad that I mentioned that but anyway this this phraseology of Edomite Please recognize that it's extremely disrespectful
53:24: It's dismissive it's arrogant and Yet it it's it's epidemic
53:31: Amongst the Hebrew Israelites. It's just you know, just how you dismiss people and of course, it's absurd. I'm not an Edomite I mean the idea that I'm a descendant of the of Edom is just So ridiculous biblically historically on any other level
53:45: That it's it's again makes it hard to take seriously the stuff. They have to try to take seriously in the process
53:54: They asked they talk about how um, he said you should get the video. I want to start right there
54:01: This is novel now vocab Malone is a guy at the Hat and James White is the one had debate
54:08: Now vocab Malone is gonna give him the in information regarding the different camps And our name is mentioned.
54:15: I saw a plane. You believe the gospel is for all men because I heard a debate Before before we did our thing last
54:23: I was going someplace else. I listened or on a ride or something free Where was I listened to it was on a ride a a debate was it?
54:31: That debate was when the elders and I'm at destroyed those pastors over there in Texas Yeah, that right there gained the attention of these are
54:38: Christian diehards here Actually gained attention. No, I never would have seen it
54:44: I in fact it didn't hardly have any views on it as I recall I remember what the number was but It wasn't
54:51: I said, oh you got to see this. That's just no I went into YouTube and I'm going all right,
54:57: I want to do some research and I You guys maybe not have ever run into a fact
55:04: I don't know of any apologists other than myself would do this, but I do a lot of my preparation for this program on the back of a bike
55:13: Yesterday I got almost all the way through an entire book on intelligent design and what was the other thing? Couple things because I I did a full 100 miles
55:21: So it was you know about six hours not including there's about five and a half hours on bike and but you got to stop once in a while, too
55:29: Anyway, that's how I do my studying and so I just went to YouTube and I'm starting doing searches and I'm putting in Hebrews or light plus Christian or something and Looking through stuff and I'm going.
55:40: Oh, that's interesting topic is the gospel for all people and So I grabbed it and there were there actually like three debates that I converted to mp3 and then listened to on these lengthy anywhere from 50 to 120 mile bike rides that I do and that's my study time.
56:04: So I'm sorry guys again. I know that this does not fit into your Wow, they're all
56:10: Wow Biblical fulfillment here and prophecy and everything else no,
56:15: I just happen to be on YouTube and I did a search and that was the the the other debates weren't you guys so Again, I'm sure it's rather deflating
56:26: But there there you go Those guys have had renowned black pastors sit at the doorsteps.
56:33: They have streets named after them So when they saw that debacle that destruction within two days
56:43: They was like no these no, we got final these these purple niggas. We got final They are fine. I'm fine.
56:49: I'm fine. I'm now this is a problem. They had to wake up white You gotta come down Did you catch that what wake up their white master from the top bunk and say you got to come down?
57:01: I guess that's who we are This is black racism I know that there are people in my audience that don't think there are such things as black racist
57:10: But evidently you have YouTube blocked on your browsers Cuz it's all over the place
57:18: And it is encouraged and praised and it's good and Yahoo and you're watching it
57:25: You know, this is it would never cross my mind to think this way in response to these men
57:32: I Want to focus in upon what they're teaching What they're saying, but this idea that you just saw there is deeply prejudicially racist and must be identified as Thoroughly opposed to any kind of Christian worldview.
57:53: It is unbiblical It is against biblical teaching these men might pretend that they are teaching the
58:00: Bible But the parts that would tell them that sin they're evidently ignoring that part But that's sinful.
58:07: It's sinful to have that kind of an attitude toward your fellow human beings
58:14: It just is it's just I think that's obvious and anybody who would say otherwise I you know
58:19: How how do you how do you come up with that? Got a real problem here. So this guy so he doesn't mention my name.
58:25: I think it's deliberate He goes I heard this debate and well, he doesn't know it doesn't mention my name because at the time
58:33: I Don't know what the camps are That all and again remember if I had watched it
58:44: Maybe because when I first downloaded I saw there was one where the guys were wearing similar shirts
58:49: But I didn't remember which one was which because remember I converted it to mp3 and So I'm only listening on a bike and I remember specifically
59:00: I was on Cave Creek Road, Northbound In the dark, so it was well before sunrise so There was nothing in the debate that I remembered that mentioned
59:15: IUIC so again, you're you're trying to read I think that's purposeful. No, sorry. Sorry guys.
59:21: It's just that I still Now I would I would always recognize
59:27: IUIC I'd always I'm starting to get some of the camp groups, you know
59:32: Cuz I've listened to the programs that have been done since then But it was not purposeful it was because I don't know which groups which vocab knew and that's why
59:42: I brought it up Debate was there was that was the debate we had Between some
59:48: Hebrew Israelites and the Church of Christ. Yeah, that's IUIC The debate is with IUIC Israel United in Christ.
59:56: They wear the purple and gold Okay, they're lailed by Nathaniel a man who actually used to be a NYPD detective
01:00:03: And it's took to me. So this is my view if you want a little camp information now now Did you see what
01:00:10: I did there I I went really Now all sudden that's going to become extremely important all
01:00:20: I was doing was a Police detective. I don't know. I would think a police did well
01:00:26: I'd like to think that a police detective might recognize the necessity of doing some
01:00:34: Research on backgrounds and things like that. But hey look spiritual deception
01:00:42: Knows no boundaries as far as training intellects. It's just I would think that a detective
01:00:49: Would automatically question some of the wild claims that are at the foundation of Hebrew Israelism You know would know something about DNA and stuff like that and and you know, the whole idea that well, it was just It was just the descendants of Israel that managed to get shipped over in the slave trade or whatever else
01:01:09: You know It might just question some of this stuff and go there might be a reason why no one's actually believed this before and until just recent time
01:01:18: That's what I was doing, but it's fascinating how that gets interpreted For the most organized and professional you watch one of their videos.
01:01:26: It's got production value. They have these organized uniforms they're big on discipline and order and They are very efficient at setting up local camps and they have a sort of a systematic methodological way
01:01:39: They'll do it and they're very willing if Camp gets outside of their orthodoxy. They'll shut down camp.
01:01:45: So they're ruthless and protecting Doctrinal purity as they see it. Stop. Stop. Stop. That was some heavy stuff there.
01:01:51: Stop. I know you got to go in He said they're ruthless and Doctrinal purity meaning we do not allow no bull
01:01:58: Up in here. That's what it means. You gots to go You gots to go Even a heathen see that All praise to the most
01:02:08: I even a heathen recognize that which is going to help us later on with the news article
01:02:14: I see you thinking now. Let's continue. Let's continue now. It's strong central organization Hold it you froze it at the right look at the body language face.
01:02:31: He's leaned back. Oh, this is a problem What that What that did that right there put they say, you know what this is top priority
01:02:44: I want you named all of that stuff that said, you know what these are the guys These are the way you got to them this this one right here
01:02:51: See what happens when you you it's all about you You know again guys,
01:02:57: I'm sorry you you just Wow that no At That particular point in time
01:03:07: You know as I'll be honest with you as I've talked at that point Once I had that encounter and The debate that we had for me
01:03:22: When I look at the various camps if you've got one That in Any way ameliorates or lessens the so obviously
01:03:37: Horrifically Anti -scriptural un -christian anti -biblical
01:03:43: Racism that is epidemic in the camps any group that's going to be least focused upon that in my mind is going to be much higher in the ranking of Well, hey at least we might be able to find somewhere a connection here and be able to communicate something
01:04:06: You're I'm sorry, I guess there are some people trained in viewing body language, but You guys ain't amongst them.
01:04:15: That's for sure. The rest of them guys ain't doing nothing this group That's what that just go back.
01:04:20: That's what he says. Go back a little bit a little bit Down camp, so they're ruthless and protecting doctrinal purity as they see it strong central organization.
01:04:28: Yeah, so I go back strong sense of organization
01:04:34: Central organization. That's what they attack Nehemiah for That's what they attack
01:04:39: Zuba Bell for their strong sense of organization That's the threat not how many how much you know blue letter how much
01:04:48: Hebrew you speak? They don't care about that garbage. They care about organization and us maintaining ruthlessly
01:04:58: Doctrinal purity at HIV slick as we see it. No as the Bible says as we see it.
01:05:04: No as we know it You understand That's what we so that right there put us on I'm not using this to glorify.
01:05:13: He's talking about as well I'm using this to show that we are under we are being watched They're what they're paying attention to that's why
01:05:20: I got this up and not to glorify the white man Oh white man, his whiteness is looking at us. No, no, no, no. No, this is up here to show that your enemies are watching you
01:05:29: That's all I'm showing this to you for and why they're watching you. All right Yeah real quick Well, he's making a point about organization like deacon
01:05:38: Understand he's 100 % correct because the most high in the Bible says that that he will set the nation of Israel in order before they
01:05:46: Arise, that's in the Bible Okay And then when you go to Titus the thing is one in five and he said that I said the in Crete to set in order
01:05:54: So this is not made up. They know that we're following the Bible and that's a problem Okay, so as long as you have organization, you're following the
01:06:03: Bible Also the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses and just Come on, this this is not even semi meaningful.
01:06:12: I mean if you want to say look there's a biblical Principle of being organized
01:06:20: No, no one's gonna argue that but don't try to turn that around say and we are the organization
01:06:28: Uh, yeah, Jehovah's Witnesses got there long before you did That's what he said.
01:06:33: He said you know what that Bible is talking about this group here. They're not gonna physically No, that was the last thought on my mind it
01:06:42: Never crossed my mind and you've not given me any reason for it to cross my mind No, the
01:06:47: Bible's not talking about that group there uh, if uh If I want to find where the
01:06:52: Bible's talking about that group there It's going to be in a general principle of where people Twist the scriptures and so that would be over where people twist the scriptures their own destruction
01:07:02: That would that would fit but that would be a general principle rather than a specific fulfillment But they know that this right here.
01:07:09: It represents christ Bringing in the kingdom and shutting down everything else. They already see that they're already way ahead of that That's what this is about So like like he was mentioning early in the beginning a lot of y 'all think this is a game
01:07:21: You really don't see where this is going Coming to here playing games like this isn't you really have to really realize what this is about Go ahead.
01:07:30: That's it. Give me judith 5 and 20 Because this guy vocab alone keep keep on the screen.
01:07:36: This guy vocab alone has received a number of information much information from Israelites um regarding the movement of the israelite movement and he's received much information and he's feeding it to other
01:07:50: Christian leaders out there including this so -called theologian here To battle against us because he says that the israelites have yet to hit the brick wall of the apologetics
01:08:02: So that's like a threat apologists the the brick wall of apologists not not apologetics, um
01:08:11: What he was saying there was there really hasn't been any major response to the hebrew israelite movement from the christian church and The two debates that I did
01:08:27: We're not we're not planned ahead It just it just happened And for it to have had the kind of impact it did
01:08:36: Without almost any preparation on my part at all I think what vocab was saying was uh, once we put a few
01:08:45: Scholars together that you know put the history together and do the language Yeah, it's gonna have a huge impact
01:08:51: Uh, that's not a threat. That's just a simple statement that says So far you've been flying under the radar screen pretty much and now someone's taken notice and I don't think you're ready to really deal with the argumentation very well not not from what i've seen
01:09:09: I mean unless you think that videos with 1990
01:09:16: Flashing html backgrounds and horns on my head is doing apologetics It's not
01:09:23: By any stretch of the imagination. You mean we haven't faced us yet. We don't need to We don't need to face you at all.
01:09:29: We're busy. We got work to do. We ain't got time to face you I I think i'll take that as whether this group would be interested in actually debating 2028 or not.
01:09:39: Um I I sort of took that as a hey, we're we're not interested in that.
01:09:45: Uh, we We're interested only in monologue not in dialogue. That's that's how I understood that Am I say why should the work great work stop the talk to you for?
01:09:55: The hell with you and your people five verse 20 judah chapter 5 and verse 20
01:10:02: Now therefore my lord and governor if there be any error in this people and they sin against their god
01:10:09: Let us consider that this shall be their ruin and let us go up and we shall overcome them
01:10:15: So this is an ammonite giving general holophanes Insight or information regarding the history of the israelites and he told him that this people sin against their god.
01:10:25: You got him you can smash him However, read the next part, but if there be no iniquity in their nation
01:10:32: Let my lord now pass by him alone. Let's their lord defend them and their god be for them
01:10:39: And we become a reproach before all the world what i'm showing you is that the heathens had a certain level of knowledge regarding regarding us in terms of how to Approach us and when to approach us
01:10:51: When they're in sin approach them When they're in righteousness Don't mention them.
01:10:57: Don't talk about them too much Keep them low profile as much as you can Demonize or defame them if you can
01:11:03: Same exact thing Yeah Like like what you're bringing up Vocab was he sat down with these consultants these negroes that the quote -unquote defected out of israelite camps
01:11:16: And his objective is to learn the whole history of the quote -unquote israelite movement
01:11:22: I find that uh uh Striking because this chapter here
01:11:30: Before we got to this part of the scripture here in judath on the uh, 20th verse
01:11:35: This man runs the whole history of israel to the king, I mean all of it So how is it that they know this because they study?
01:11:43: Israel i'm making the same point because that's what's happening with these media guys They sit and they take their time and study meticulously
01:11:50: And they're gathering information. That's the reason why I say a lot of us are playing games. You don't realize how serious your nation is
01:11:57: For them to sit down and read and study and put together and plot and plan all it There's a lot involved they understand the importance of knowing what they're doing
01:12:05: That's the that's the point about organization. I don't realize that this movement is set up to destroy their world
01:12:13: Y 'all don't understand this This whole thing is a room full of men who plan to destroy this society's doctrines everything
01:12:22: That might be one we want to keep around. Um, once again Um How often you talk to hebrew israelites and you know someday my
01:12:35: My foot's going to be on your neck um and they really believe it and You know, there's there's there's the face of that Uh statement, you know,
01:12:47: I didn't I didn't force anybody to make this statement. It's freely made freely made once we are successful in our mission
01:12:54: This world is this world that this ends They're not going to allow you to do that without a fight
01:13:00: You wouldn't you fight back? I would Unless you said that you're scared, but he's not scared
01:13:08: Within 200 plus years. He didn't conquer the whole world. America is a fresh new country. This isn't old America was established in so -called 1776
01:13:15: And conquered everybody within a matter of time All thanks to their god the devil But that's what they did.
01:13:22: There's pretty interesting view of history. Um You know conquered everybody, uh,
01:13:29: I i'm sure that the uh, the english and uh, uh the french and um, you know, we did defeat germany in world war two, but uh,
01:13:37: They're allies and uh, certainly the russians have a problem that chinese have a problem with that. Okay. Anyway um, do their god the devil little little tough to Reason with this world view but it that it is what it is
01:13:51: They're not gonna just hand the world over to a bunch of what they call niggas and spics and savages. They're not doing that They're not gonna sit by.
01:13:58: I don't allow you to get organized amongst yourselves either So be mindful Right, right exactly jump to verse three, please.
01:14:07: We're gonna say something. Maybe verse three judith chapter five in verse three
01:14:14: And he said unto them this is um akio the ammonite giving halaphanes the general who was going to come against us intel
01:14:23: Against us verse three And he said unto them tell me now. He's sons of canaan
01:14:29: Who's who this people is that dwelleth in the hill country? And what are the cities that they inhabit where they live and what is the multitude of their army?
01:14:39: How strong are they how organized are they and where is? And wherein is their power and strength?
01:14:45: What book do they use? What do they study? And what king is set over them who's their leader or captain of their army who's over them same thing same thing you just saw so so any type of Reference you can find even in a non -canonical book.
01:15:03: They may consider this canonical judith is historically laughable, but Again, i've i've tried to you know, that's another subject that if you could get a meaningful
01:15:15: Hebrew israelite representative that would uh engage in a debate on the canonicity of the apocrypha
01:15:21: Uh without utilization of off -color language, that would be something that we would be more than happy to do
01:15:27: But even in a non -canonical Book never considered scripture by the jews themselves um the real uh, the real israelites, um a military uh
01:15:44: Inquiry into the other side becomes paralleled with a theological study of the doctrines and history of an aberrant racially motivated group in america uh two thousand well two thousand years after christ
01:16:03: Uh No, that's that's not a parallel. That's that's there's there's all sorts of differences, uh there uh
01:16:12: But once you again to adopt this rather cultic mindset then everything works
01:16:18: Oh same thing. Yeah elder. It's old nathaniel same thing Same thing you're reading the same thing again
01:16:26: So this is not a game. You're living bible prophecy. You're living it The most high is very theatrical.
01:16:33: We're all just pawns in one show one movie The movie ended already. We're just waiting. We're just living it out
01:16:40: So They're also going in parts of the bible and trying to debunk The parts that select that sealed a lot of us up They're trying to go into deuteronomy 28 trying to say don't mean that I even heard
01:16:51: I think that's probably in reference to what I said because uh, the gms guys
01:16:57: Uh mistakenly said well, he said he was gonna deal with deuteronomy 28. He hasn't done it. I had Um, and it's it's there on it's there on sermon audio
01:17:06: Uh, we finished up the whole series on god's law and I I looked specifically at deuteronomy 28 and I told the folks
01:17:12: Hey, there's this group. The hebrew israelites. This is what they do with this text. Here's is the problems with that Here's what it's actually talking about in context.
01:17:18: I did I don't know anybody else has been addressing it. So that must be what we're referring to here not debunking the bible
01:17:27: Uh, we're debunking the abuse of the bible the the abusive Misinterpretation of prophetic texts to make them apply to things that the authors never intended them to apply to Even going to isaiah 28 9 and 10 about precepts about precepts
01:17:43: They're trying to say that we ain't supposed to be dealing with that either saying that you can make the bible say what it was What you wanted to say all of this is designed to debunk the bible
01:17:52: Why because the bible in its true form is coming out they've been using the bible for years But now that the rightful owners are dealing with the bible now, they got to get rid of it y 'all don't see that No, no, actually, um, we don't
01:18:08: Uh see that because that's obviously untrue demonstrating Eisegesis on your part, uh abusive history abusive language abuse the text of scripture.
01:18:19: Um is defending the text of scripture and uh
01:18:26: Demonstrating that you're utilizing non -canonical sources uh is defending scripture and uh
01:18:34: It is in no way shape or form Debunking the bible and the bible is not yours um
01:18:41: You may want to make that claim and say it's just for us I'm, I get it but um
01:18:47: That very same book contradicts your statement. So there's they moved on from there Uh to uh something else, uh other discussions, but There was the discussion from the
01:18:59: IUIC And so now everybody in this audience anyways will will remember that um
01:19:07: If you see somebody in purple and gold That's IUIC. That's not GMS That's not any of the others.
01:19:15: It's it's IUIC and we will have a quiz at the end of the program Well, I was going to say the the picture of the research guy initially with his hand on his forehead
01:19:24: That's what's stuck in my brain. So yes. Yes. Oh, I can't believe this. Oh, wow. Yeah uh, okay, so And uh, yeah, yeah and the spy the very non -jewish looking
01:19:40: Long non -israelite looking spy there There are some interesting memes showing up already on on twitter.
01:19:47: Um If you're going to be a heretic be a stylish heretic was one that just just came up with Uh, what what can
01:19:56: I say? All right, we've already been going for an hour and 20 minutes
01:20:03: Are we really going to do this again? Go this long I I announced it so I gotta do something with it.
01:20:14: Um, i've been pretty amazed at the um response
01:20:20: Uh to the andy stanley, uh discussion it's obvious to me that there is
01:20:31: Someone's gotten hold of stanley and has uh,
01:20:42: Sort of infected his mind with uh with something um
01:20:50: And and that's where this stuff is coming from and everyone's telling me that frank turek is um
01:20:58: Behind some of this. I I don't know that but i've been i've been referred to a number of times to a podcast with richard how from southern evangelical seminary
01:21:10: Called bad arguments for god with richard g how this is I haven't heard this yet.
01:21:15: I was linked to it just before the program Should we do something dangerous here
01:21:21: Oh, no, no Yeah, yeah well
01:21:31: There were there were a couple of interesting tweets that I saw here that that makes me go well
01:21:37: This is interesting Uh, like a quote here
01:21:43: You would labor to pull out of those four gospels the idea that trusting in him you could have eternal life
01:21:50: I hope that's not what it says But there was a time index let's let's do some
01:21:57: Scary stuff here. Shall we? uh, let's let's just pop in here and let's
01:22:04: Let's hear Uh -oh uh Hold on, hold on a second.
01:22:11: What wait, wait, I just realized I have to do this differently I have to copy That url and bring it down here
01:22:22: Because otherwise you're not going to hear it because it would be playing on the wrong computer
01:22:29: Almost did something that would have not worked there but you're not going to be bringing anything up because this is a um
01:22:38: It's audio only yeah It's audio only And it's loading right now.
01:22:45: So, uh, I will Minimize this one get out of the way. So we've got only that one
01:22:52: Yeah, this is this is live webcasting kids. Um Okay, unfortunately that video i've played is is highly memeable very very highly memeable and that that that be just All you memeing people you meme memesters.
01:23:14: Is that what they're? Be nice Be nice. Okay All right. Let's Let's see.
01:23:20: Let's see what we got here. All right, you ready? Uh audio only richard how
01:23:26: Richard g how .com you can get much of what he's saying right there off his website. H o w e last name
01:23:31: I'm frank turk. You're listening to cross -examined on the american family radio network richard We would be remiss if we didn't talk about the passage and I think it's colossians 2 where paul seems to dis
01:23:42: Philosophy, can you just in a minute or two unpack why that's not what he's saying? Yeah, well, first of all, uh, we wouldn't be able to dis we wouldn't be able to Avoid philosophy if we didn't have some kind of philosophical knowledge
01:23:56: Uh as thomas aquinas said because the believer must at times oppose the philosopher. He must make use of philosophy
01:24:03: But in the context paul's not even talking about Philosophy as a discipline like we're talking about it metaphysics epistemology
01:24:10: The word wasn't even used that way in his day the context of that verse out of colossians 2 verse 8 is this insidious kind of Legalism that was infecting the colossian church and and that was the philosophy if I could just pause that for a moment um
01:24:31: Dr. Howe and I uh had a uh A very interesting unscheduled discussion at southern evangelical seminary, um
01:24:42: In what was that? 2012 I think it was about was that one?
01:24:49: 2012 or 2013 somewhere around there And I don't know if do we have that linked off of our our thing.
01:24:56: I don't I don't know that we do but anyway it was a Impromptu mini debate with zero preparation on my part anyways
01:25:07: And we obviously come at things from a very very different perspective, um, he is a huge fan of thomas aquinas and ses
01:25:18: Big promoter of thomas aquinas I have made the connection and I don't think anyone can really argue the connection uh between aquinas and uh uh
01:25:35: Getting the right verse up here between aquinas and roman catholicism and the many converts roman catholicism that have come out of ses
01:25:41: I I don't think it's really questionable. But anyway, um We had a discussion about this.
01:25:47: You can you can listen to it on on youtube If you just put the two names in i'm sure it'll probably come up.
01:25:53: I'm, not sure i'm not doing the search for it right now um I don't
01:25:58: I don't think that's what's going on colossians chapter two uh, there is a fundamental contrast here between the
01:26:08: Fact that in christ all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form in him are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge and the philosophy of the world
01:26:17: Which would include natural philosophy now depends on how you define natural philosophy, I suppose um, but The idea of limiting
01:26:28: Colossians two to some kind of well, there was a specific context going on there um is
01:26:37: A bit troubling to me. I'd like to hear what the exegetical basis for that would uh would be
01:26:45: And deign to see that he was warning him about that that that you can be righteous by this meticulous attention to all these
01:26:52: You know grow this out cut that off. Don't eat this don't eat He's like no That's not how you're righteous before god that he goes on to repudiate the people who say
01:27:00: That he has a false sense of humility, but it is of no use in curtailing the indulgences of the flesh
01:27:06: So, uh, it's not even talking about philosophy As we're saying here and if a person's going to give me an argument as to why the christian wouldn't shouldn't use philosophy
01:27:17: He's being philosophical and making that argument. That's right. That's right It's impossible the categories
01:27:23: Well, the the problem of course is that what we are concerned about and i've expressed this to dr
01:27:29: Howell before and dr. Turk was in the room when I did this by the way um The the problem is that what we're saying is there is a such a thing
01:27:40: As a love of the wisdom of christ But that has to be distinguished from an earthly wisdom.
01:27:48: So there is There is a repudiation biblically of the idea of neutral philosophy, there's no such thing
01:27:58: There's no such thing and I I don't believe that dr Howell or dr. Turk would agree with me on that. I say there's no such thing
01:28:04: There can't be Um, there cannot be such thing as neutral philosophy Doesn't there's no such thing as a neutral ground
01:28:13: Not if you have a consistent christian worldview In order to formulate and advance his argument friends it it while it is true you can use bad philosophy
01:28:23: It's impossible to use no philosophy when interpreting the bible And so but that doesn't make philosophy primary to revelation.
01:28:33: That's where the issue is uh I think these gentlemen do believe that philosophy is more fundamental than revelation because you have to have philosophy to interpret revelation.
01:28:42: I That there was no philosophical classes offered to adam before god said thou shalt not
01:28:48: Doesn't work Not from a christian worldview to make that very clear. You are always using philosophical principles
01:28:55: Whether you're trying to interpret the bible trying to interpret the newspaper trying to interpret a sermon Whatever you're whatever you're trying to interpret you're using philosophical principles
01:29:05: The question is are those philosophical principles rational? Are they true? And that's what we're trying to get at right now
01:29:12: Uh, and what's the basis for that from a christian perspective? It's it's whether they are according to christ
01:29:19: Uh Not not whether they Can whether you can offer a particular?
01:29:26: proof for them But whether they are are consistent with the revelation That is fundamentally fulfilled in jesus christ
01:29:34: When people claim that the bible is true, uh -huh, and I ask him. So you believe the bible is true. Yes Well, uh, do you believe it's inerrant?
01:29:41: Yes Well in order to believe that the bible is inerrant, they'd have to know what an error is Sure, but in order to know what an error is they would have to know what truth is
01:29:51: But to know what truth is and that discussion is a philosophical question Yeah, it's philosophical question doesn't make philosophy primary to revelation because god made us capable of doing those things
01:30:01: He made he made us in the image of god Um, and so the idea that well and that makes philosophy
01:30:08: Fundamental more primary and hence truths of revelation have to be based upon philosophical argumentation
01:30:16: That's what we're saying. That's backwards from the biblical revelation That's that's really and that came up over and over again in in that conversation a few years ago
01:30:25: Even their claim. Well, I only believe the bible is itself has this tacit
01:30:30: Commitments to principles to categories like truth and error which are themselves philosophical categories
01:30:37: Well richard talk me off the heretical ledge here because I don't want to say anything false Do you agree when
01:30:43: I say that technically speaking the foundation of christianity is not a collection of ancient writings We call the bible the foundation of christianity is the reality of god and the historicity of the biblical
01:30:52: Events, including the resurrection of christ. Is that okay now again? This is why people are linking me to this.
01:31:00: I'm i'm and this first time i've heard it So you are watching immediate interaction. I did not listen to this before the program started somebody was like, well, you shouldn't do that Well, it's a live webcast the way it goes
01:31:12: Uh, that's evidently um when andy stanley in the sermon the week before Pointed to one book it was frank turks
01:31:23: So evidently that's where he's getting it from. All right and As I said then and as i'm now going to say i'm going to i'm going to save The andy stanley sermon for the next program because this is going to go long enough.
01:31:36: It's already jumbo as it is It's going to go long enough as it is. So we'll we'll do that on the next next program andy stanley
01:31:46: And it and this question this question fundamental category errors It's ironic that people who are so big on philosophy
01:31:54: Are not so big on not making fundamental category errors because they're fundamentally fundamental category errors here
01:32:01: We're talking about the foundation. Let me I don't know how well this works. This is a i'm, not playing this, uh
01:32:09: Yeah, there we go Let's see if this is the bible Is itself has this tacit
01:32:15: Commitments to principles to categories like truth and error which are themselves philosophical categories
01:32:23: Well richard talk me off the heretical ledge here because I don't want to say anything false Do you agree when
01:32:28: I say that technically speaking the foundation of christianity is not a collection of ancient writings We call the bible the foundation of christianity is the reality of god and the historicity of the biblical events
01:32:39: Including the resurrection of christ. Okay I am offended
01:32:47: By the description of scripture as a bunch of ancient writings. First of all, I don't know how any christian can even use that language
01:32:53: I don't know how anybody who's ever read the 119th psalm can use that kind of language. I don't know.
01:32:58: I I don't understand it If you really have a well,
01:33:07: I don't know don't even know what terminology to use for it anymore, but My understanding of scripture my commitment to scripture
01:33:16: Will allow me to recognize the Limited truth
01:33:24: That scripture is a collection of ancient writings but To say that that's all it is
01:33:34: And then to contrast it With what god has done in jesus christ. I do not even begin to understand that mindset
01:33:43: What I know of what god has done in jesus christ, I know because and and and the reason
01:33:50: I I can know it With the authority and certainty of god is because god has spoken
01:33:56: And what god has spoken is theanoustas and the only thing I have that theanoustas is scripture
01:34:04: So to even make the distinction see I I don't know what these guys are doing
01:34:11: Is is this you know, let's let's Do the least common denominator thing here.
01:34:18: Let's so Boil it down that now we don't even have to worry about defending scripture because somehow we have created this
01:34:26: This ridiculous distinction I mean,
01:34:32: I I don't get it because Andy stanley at one point in the sermon uh
01:34:41: Quotes his daughter is saying he was talking about she was listening to some of the critics and i've certainly been one of the critics
01:34:47: Do these folks think that the resurrection took place because the bible forced it to happen no
01:34:55: What i'm saying is to know the resurrection requires
01:35:02: A revelation from god that is sufficient to ground the amazing statement that jesus christ rose from the dead that merely
01:35:12: Primarily reliable historical documents are not gonna cut being the foundation for that I want to know it from god
01:35:23: And that's why we are concerned that scripture be called and understood to be theanoustas god breathed
01:35:32: So from whence comes this weird distinction
01:35:38: Between what scripture is historically or when it was recognized and bound together under one cover any of the rest of this stuff
01:35:48: And the idea that well the foundation is the resurrection Okay And I know about the resurrection.
01:35:57: I know what the resurrection means I know the significance of the person who was resurrected. I understand the significance of the atonement
01:36:03: I understand the fulfillment of a prophecy that led to all of it on the basis of what?
01:36:10: According to the one who rose from the dead the first thing the first thing that he did for his disciples was not give
01:36:17: Them thomas aquinas. He opened their hearts and their minds to understand the scriptures
01:36:25: What are you guys doing What are you thinking you're gonna accomplish here?
01:36:33: I don't get it Maybe I should have listened to this beforehand
01:36:44: Makes sense. I agree. I think it absolutely makes sense as long as our hero realizes that what we're saying is that the foundation
01:36:52: And that we're not saying if we've exhausted The the uh, the christian faith by this these foundational principles.
01:37:00: There's more like you said There's more to being a sanctified christian than you can get from the bare
01:37:06: Knowledge of these, you know minimal events god created the world and jesus rose from the dead See, this is this minimalist approach.
01:37:14: This is this minimalist approach gone to seed and I Go back in the archives folks
01:37:23: I have been warning Against the corrosive effect of the minimalist approach for many many years
01:37:33: There are a lot of folks don't want to have anything to do with me because I keep saying that's not enough
01:37:38: It's not apostolic. It's not how the apostles did it. Oh, but i've seen it work.
01:37:43: So well. Oh, so you're a pragmatist Okay. Hmm. All right, that seems to what's going on here this this massive minimalization of everything and now it's like well
01:37:57: As long as what you're not hearing us saying is that you know for sanctification stuff to get to become a real good christian
01:38:05: Then then you do need what the holy spirit has given to us but somehow you don't need to have the foundations
01:38:13: Of the very redemptive events of jesus christ founded upon divine revelation
01:38:29: It seems to me there's a massive problem here in people not thinking that the holy spirit of god
01:38:39: Can ground his elect people in a love for his word and obedience to his word There is a fundamental
01:38:47: Distrust that the holy spirit can continue to do what the spirit has done down through the ages And you know where this comes from theology
01:38:57: It comes from your theology If you believe god has an elect people and he's accomplishing his purpose.
01:39:03: You don't even start going down this road You don't need to But man, if you don't have that belief if you've got the good norman guise lyrian anti -calvinist redefined mindset
01:39:20: You don't have that apologetic comfort of recognizing That we are called to defend all of god's truth and he's going to honor and glorify his truth even in the midst of judgment
01:39:31: And that even the rejection of that truth is a part of his purpose and plan if you're stuck with an arminian synergistic methodology
01:39:40: It's going to impact not only your apologetics, but man Eventually the the whole foundation ends up getting washed away and that's we're watching here
01:39:49: That's we're watching here That's why I I keep sitting here going. What are you guys talking about because I cannot understand what the motivation is
01:39:59: Why is andy stanley telling 32 000 people That the foundation of the faith is not the scriptures.
01:40:07: Well, then what is it? It's what jesus did Well, how do you know about that? It's in the scriptures What are you accomplishing?
01:40:14: What are you giving to the people you're saying? I want people who've given up the faith to rethink they're giving up the faith.
01:40:20: Well, first of all theologically What do you mean they gave up the faith? Do you even do you even have categories in your theology for a false profession of faith in the first place for for the concept of apostasy
01:40:33: If you went to dallas, you probably don't Unless you left dallas's theology afterwards, which a lot of people thankfully do but anyway special truths
01:40:44: About that god wants us to know about himself that are only known because of special revelation in the bible like the trinity
01:40:52: Like the gospel like the second coming and principles of sanctification and stuff But those things are not in competition to the truth that we also can know from uh, general revelation
01:41:03: And they work in concert, but you can't know the resurrection from general revelation right
01:41:10: I mean I would What dr. Howe just said that section
01:41:16: Though I don't see how it relates to what he was just saying to what dr. Just saying but that section yeah
01:41:22: Trinity gospel sanctification. In other words christian life. You don't know from general revelation. What does that have to do with the question?
01:41:29: which was Which had this false dichotomy between knowing the resurrection as the foundation of the christian faith and the collection of ancient writings
01:41:43: Which is known as god speaking, uh to the christian people
01:41:49: And in fact, and this may sound a little strange to our listeners as much of this program probably has If you just had the four gospels
01:41:57: You would labor To pull out of those four gospels the idea that jesus came lived a perfect life
01:42:04: Died in your place and by trusting in him you you could have eternal life you would have a hard time coming to that conclusion just by the four gospels because Do I have to say anything?
01:42:24: That's why they were written John said these were written to do the exact thing that dr.
01:42:31: Church just said can't do or have a hard time I'm sure it's still in the archives.
01:42:38: Remember peter Most of you don't years ago. We interviewed a young man. I I sort of have a feeling he's probably not alive today
01:42:46: I think his family probably found him but he was born on the border between afghanistan and pakistan
01:42:58: A missionary came through before his birth and left a new testament with his family. They didn't destroy it
01:43:05: And he Read the gospels
01:43:11: And was converted By reading the gospels because he knew that was a jesus that he had never been introduced to by islam um
01:43:22: Those gospels were written to accomplish the exact thing That dr. Turk just told us they don't really do a good job at it would be a hard thing to do
01:43:32: Why is this happening? I don't understand why this minimalization on the part of apologists. I don't understand.
01:43:37: I don't get it Sort of listen to the gospels are more or less giving history
01:43:46: They're not adding a lot of theological Gloss, they're not adding a lot of theological application or theological implications.
01:43:54: I should say to the text. That's what the epistles do in fact in fact John just does it in one line where he says these things were written so that you may know that Jesus rose from the dead and that by trusting in him you can have life in his name
01:44:06: That's about the only place in the gospels you get anything really close to Understanding what the christian message is you need the epistles and the book of revelation to go
01:44:16: To get a much fuller robust idea of what christianity is well
01:44:26: Okay. Now I see why people were linking me to it Okay. Now I I I now
01:44:32: Okay. Now I see why I was being linked to it man theology matters man theology matters um
01:44:47: I'll tell you what i'm thinking right now when synergism Encounters a society
01:44:55: That is under the judgment of god and is turning against the christian faith with a vociferous
01:45:04: Attitude It collapses into a minimalist form of religion that's not even recognizable as christianity anymore
01:45:13: Theology matters the foundation Must be there And when the foundation has cracks in it when the foundation has accommodated the world once the pressure comes well, at least it does give me an insight into um into where uh stanley's coming from It does.
01:45:36: Yes, sir Uh and listening to the first part of that it struck me that their entire defense or promotion really of philosophy
01:45:45: And trying to explain away these different categories It just seemed to me they were arguing almost directly against uh paul's case from first corinthians 2 you went to first corinthians 118 last week and it just seemed to me like This goes totally in the face of what he the case he's making to the corinthians
01:46:07: Hey, the jews they think like this and the gentiles they got their philosophies
01:46:12: But you know what all the wisdom of man is foolishness to god. Yeah. Well, uh, like I said, there's a uh,
01:46:21: We we went into that. Uh had to go into that rather fully. Uh In the discussion that we had at ses a number of years ago.
01:46:30: Obviously, I I do believe there's a fundamental Divide, uh at that point and that ends up impacting this as well
01:46:37: But uh, so what we're gonna do on the uh on the next program Is uh,
01:46:44: I will uh I'm gonna take time to listen to the rest of that see if there's anything more that we needed to needed to address
01:46:53: And uh Hmm almost
01:46:58: I I have too much We I leave saturday I speak 14 times
01:47:06: Uh, I just don't know that I can I can fit it in but it it probably would help me to track down dr.
01:47:15: Turek's book and to uh to get through it I I about the only way
01:47:20: I could do it is if I Crush myself and go back out on another 100 miler, uh
01:47:30: To get it done. Uh, and we've got we've got a uh tropical depression Heading our direction starting.
01:47:37: I think tonight if I recall correctly so Yeah, I know you're you're yeah, you're gonna get washed away by one of them someday because you you kept saying that but In other words, it may be difficult for me to get out to do it.
01:47:52: Um definitely something i'm gonna keep my eye on because um
01:47:58: The divide is becoming significantly more Easy to recognize
01:48:05: Uh, it truly is it truly is and this andy stanley thing You can stand as a southern baptist
01:48:13: In front of 32 000 people and say Christian faith not dependent upon the bible
01:48:21: As the bible goes is not how the christian faith goes Uh for any of us who have read
01:48:29: Almost anything in the early church fathers for any of us who have attempted to uh accurately represent the
01:48:41: Vital connection Between divine revelation and christian theology and christian proclamation the gospel and the work of the holy spirit and conversion and everything else
01:48:52: It's pretty shocking to hear these things But i'm starting to see where they're coming from starting to see where they're coming from uh
01:49:00: Wow, well you watched it here folks. You watched it here There you go
01:49:08: We're not going to use that term because Yeah, yeah Anyway, all right folks.
01:49:13: So almost went for two hours. Not quite, but we will uh I Was just told okay, if it's 13 times on the ship and one time saturday night mike, what is it?
01:49:28: Um, i'm i'm not i'm not complaining about it. I'm preparing for it But what about the evenings if you got something in the afternoon something in the evenings
01:49:40: Yeah, we'll talk about it. Uh, there's gonna be a lot there could be a there's gonna be moving my jaw a lot
01:49:46: Okay I got some preparation to do and I just don't well, let's let's be honest though since he's listening.
01:49:53: Um This is this fits right into the whole The whole thing
01:50:00: It is smack dab in the middle of it He says eight times. Okay, that's nice If that if that includes
01:50:08: Uh saturday night Uh as well, so we'll see But man this fit this really fits in I need to I need to check audible kindle everything asap and try to arrange my uh
01:50:25: Writing schedule to get this is this is important This is really really is important because look what's what's the topic we're doing on the cruise apologetics in the sight of god part of that is doing apologetics
01:50:40: Recognizing that god is examining our motivations and everything else but this is another aspect of doing it in the sight of god is
01:50:50: Shouldn't the very first priority we have in doing apologetics being It it needs to be honoring god's truth not minimizing it
01:51:00: Oh, but but it won't work if you do that work in whose eyes who gets to define what the purpose
01:51:09: Of apologetics is in the first place. We are told To sanctify christ as lord in our hearts.
01:51:15: Yes, but why? Is there room for pragmatism when it comes to apologetics again theology matters theology matters
01:51:29: And now mike's just trying to get me off Off Off -track, uh on facebook i'm going to ignore him for the 22 seconds left in the program.
01:51:38: Thanks for watching today lord willing back on thursday And who knows maybe i'll have a whole book done by then not written but read
01:51:47: I'd love to have one written too for that matter, but that's not gonna happen We'll see you on thursday.
01:51:53: Thanks for watching. God bless. Hey just for yucks It's not the first time he's uh faked me out on the closer either.