February 4, 2019 Tribute to the late Paula Webster, “A Loving Tribute in Memory of the Wife of Christian Apologist William Webster” PLUS Elizabeth W. D. Groves on “Grief Undone: A Journey with God & Cancer”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your.

Own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania,.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at

ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this fourth

day of February 2019.

This is my first live broadcast since returning from my very long trip

down south, the first to Atlanta, Georgia for the G3 conference where I manned

an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitors booth, then later to Laurel, Mississippi

where I manned an exhibitors booth at the Deep South Founders Conference, then spent one night in

Birmingham, Alabama and returned home and took a week off to recuperate and I will

give you more detailed updates on those two wonderful weeks down south as soon as

possible in another broadcast.

But today I must announce that during my time down south

having a wonderful time I did have that happiness interrupted with some sad news

I got a call from my dear friend David T. King who is a Christian apologist

and dear friend mutually with Dr. William Webster who I've known since

approximately 1990 I believe.

David called to tell me that our mutual friend Bill Webster's wife Paula Webster

had passed away, had gone home to glory with Christ in eternity.

She had battled cancer for quite a while but it went into remission and she received a

clean bill of health as recently as five months ago and when it returned it returned with a

vengeance and she was given the grim prognosis of having a week to live but

she went home to be with Christ only after about three days after hearing this news.

Paula Beth Webster at age 69 went home to be with the Lord she loves on January

25th 2019 at Kaiser Sunnyside Hospital after battling cancer.

A graveside service took place at 3 p .m. Friday February 1st at the Crawford

Cemetery in Battleground Washington with immediate family presence.

Paula was born in Mount Vernon Washington the first of three children to

Maynard and Terry Wurst.

She attended grade school and high school in Washington state and for a short time in Tucson Arizona.

She was an accomplished violinist during her high school years playing in the Tuscan Youth

Symphony.

She married Bill Webster in April of 1972.

Paula was a devoted wife, mother, grandmother, and homeschool mom.

The passions of her heart were her Lord Jesus Christ, his gospel, teaching his word, and

her family.

She was a dedicated Bible teacher and disciple of women.

She is survived by Bill, her best friend and husband of nearly 47 years, her daughters

Tess, Mary, and Anna, and sons Matt and Will, eight grandchildren, and her sister

Pat.

I interviewed Paula a number of years ago.

In fact the exact date was October 15th of

2008.

That was the last time I had had her on the program.

She gave a fascinating interview about the dangers of presumptive

regeneration.

She herself believed that she was saved long before she actually

was.

In other words, she believes that she had been deceived by her own fallible perception of her

heart and she had come to faith, saving faith, in reality much later in life than

she had first thought.

And today I'm going to, for the first hour of the program, I'm going to air in tribute of Paula her

interview that she conducted with me.

And then after that, the second hour, we're going to have a live interview with Elizabeth W .D.

Groves.

She is teaching Hebrew at Westminster Theological Seminary in Glenside, Pennsylvania, and she's

going to be discussing her book, Grief Undone, A Journey with God and Cancer.

Obviously a very relevant subject to be a sequel to Paula

Webster's broadcast in tribute of her life.

Obviously this is a bittersweet time.

The bitterness obviously flows from the fact that the dear sister in Christ has left this earth and

we grieve especially for William Webster and his family as they are left behind by her.

But the sweetness obviously comes from there is no doubt where she is right now.

She is enjoying a bliss that we cannot even comprehend on this earth,

being with Christ, being actually in the presence of Jesus Christ for eternity and

glory.

So she does not have any regrets about departing this earth, that's for sure.

She was a strong Christian woman with a strong Christian testimony.

In fact, James Montgomery Boyce, the late James Montgomery Boyce, whom perhaps she's even met by now

again, had a reunion with him in heaven perhaps.

James Montgomery Boyce was so impressed by Paula Webster's testimony that he included it in his commentary on

Romans, I think it was Romans 9.

But hopefully when William Webster returns to the program he will give us more details about

that.

But now I am going to start airing the broadcast in tribute of Paula Webster,

my interview with Paula Webster on October 15, 2008.

And I hope that you are blessed by this and I hope you enjoy.

Good afternoon, Long Island, New York, Connecticut and those listening internationally over the internet.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron.

Do you treat your children, if you have children, do you treat your children as if they are a

mission field?

Or do you assume that they are Christians just because they're your children and you

happen to be Christians?

Well, as the old saying goes, God does not have grandchildren.

And to discuss this today is Paula Webster, the wife of

well -known apologist and author and founder and director of Christian Resources, Bill

Webster.

Paula Webster herself believes that she was deceived most of her life, most of her

early life, I should say, into thinking that she was actually a born -again believer in Christ,

headed for heaven.

But then in adulthood, through examination, self -examination and so forth,

began to realize that she had never truly been saved by the blood of Christ.

And that had brought her to a genuine conversion, truly crying

out to the Lord in repentant faith.

If you want to pick up the phone, you can call your family, friends and loved ones and have them tune in.

And they can hear this program anywhere on the planet Earth via live streaming.

We'll be right back with Paula Webster.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron.

If you've just tuned us in, our guest today is Paula Webster.

She is the wife of well -known apologist, author and founder and director of

Christian Resources, Bill Webster.

And today, Paula is going to be speaking about the heresy of presumptive regeneration.

And it's great to have you back for the second time on Iron Sharpens Iron, Paula Webster.

Thank you, Chris.

And let's go into your childhood, the upbringing that you

had in regard to religion and so forth, and the church that you went to.

I was raised in the Christian Reformed denomination, and I was very

thankful for the home I was raised in and for the doctrines I learned.

We had to study and be quizzed on the Heidelberg Confession.

I made a profession of faith before the Confessory when I was 14 years old.

And as far as I knew, I believed with all my heart everything I had been taught.

I don't think I can remember a time when I was not convinced in my heart that

the scriptures were the word of God and that everything that I knew was true.

And I think I had a faith of sorts in God.

But in my 20s, I became very troubled by

the fact that there were two issues that I couldn't resolve.

One was the fact that I couldn't figure out how to lay hold of the Lord for power over

besetting sins.

It really troubled me that in spite of all my background, I had a firm

faith in what I would call the doctrines of the word, but I didn't have a personal relationship of any.

Sort with the Lord.

Now, going back to your upbringing, even before you made your

confession of faith at 14, were your parents, your family,

your minister, your fellow congregants urging you to

assume that you were a Christian at the time?

Yes, absolutely.

I don't remember ever hearing.

The gospel presented to me personally or in church or in any

setting.

It was a general presentation of the gospel, but not a specific

one as though anyone in our congregation could possibly be lost.

I heard a lot about being a child of the covenant, and it was just assumed

that I was a Christian, and I assumed the same thing.

I had no reason to doubt it.

I was told it because I was a child of the covenant and did in fact profess

the doctrines and professed a faith in Christ.

The assumption was that I was saved, but I never heard the gospel.

Presented.

You were just taught what the facts of the gospel were.

You weren't actually evangelized.

You didn't have the fear of hell put into you

to examine yourself whether you were truly among the.

Elect and so forth.

I can't recall a single time when I was presented with that truth,.

Either in my family or in a church setting.

One of the great heroes of the Christian faith, especially among reformed folk, is

Abraham Kuyper, but that seems to be one of the greatest flaws of his ministry and

belief system was the doctrine known as presumptive

regeneration, that you were to baptize your infants

assuming or presuming that they were regenerate because they were the children

of Christians.

Obviously, there is even a difference of opinion among us, amongst Pato Baptists, that we ought to want to

broad brush all those Protestants who baptize their infants because,

for instance, Dr. Joel Beeke of the Heritage Reformed Congregation in Grand

Rapids, Michigan.

He's also the president of the Puritan Reform Theological Seminary there in Grand Rapids.

He believes in infant baptism but believes that that is a serious error to automatically

presume that your children are regenerate just because they're your children and you're a Christian.

He believes that the home is a mission field, that children must be evangelized.

I completely agree with that.

Yeah, well, this unfortunately is a breeding ground for nominal

Christianity, isn't it?

Sometimes you have generation after generation of families believing

that they are indeed children of God just because they were raised in a Christian home, but

Christian parents can have reprobate children just as

wicked parents can have Christian children, correct?

Yes.

Sadly, I think that's completely true.

I, in looking back, saw little evidence of genuine

Christianity in many in my family because I think they were all deceived by the same error.

I can't honestly say that my parents believed that baptism saved me.

I don't know that they would have gone that far, but the assumption was because I was a child of the

covenant, no one saw or felt any need to, as you say, treat children as a

mission field and speak with them personally about their own conversion.

I never heard words like conversion, being saved,

relationship with Christ.

All of this was addressed in a very general way as though it was for someone outside the denomination

or someone outside the church and that's most unfortunate.

Yeah, I remember years ago when I worked for a Christian book publisher, part -time,

we carried a book written by a friend of mine called The Gospel for Children, and a

Presbyterian minister somewhere down south returned the book because he realized that

this book was evangelizing children and he thought I guess it was just a

book of facts about the gospel rather than something to get children to search their hearts and he said that we

don't evangelize our children in our church and he returned the book.

That's kind of frightening, isn't it?

It's very frightening because I do remember the first time I was convicted of sin, I was four years old and

I'd been put in a nursery, didn't want to be in the nursery, and because I was angry I pinched the

daylight out of another little child for no reason.

I remember sitting there wondering what was wrong with me, what was in my heart that would provoke that kind

of meanness and I've often thought back on that episode and thought if someone had come along

and I'd been able to articulate that to a grown -up I would have understood clearly when presented

with the facts that sin was my problem and that it was a heart issue.

Mm -hmm.

Now, did your congregation have any interaction or fellowship with other

Christian Reformed churches?

Because I wouldn't want to broad brush that denomination.

I've known very fine men and Christians from that denomination.

Actually, most of them have left now for a completely different reason because there was a

split, I believe it was in the 90s, over liberalism that began to dominate the

Christian Reformed Church and many fled that denomination into more Orthodox Reformed

groups such as the United Reformed Church of North America.

Yes.

But did you see that same sort of attitude with other Christian

Reformed congregations or did you not even have any interaction with any other churches when you were a kid?

Being Dutch, we almost exclusively interacted only with other Dutch people and with other

Christian Reformed people.

My perspective, again, was as a child so I don't have any way of

knowing what it was actually in fact like.

But as far as I can remember, it was not confined to our local

body.

This was a problem throughout the denomination.

And as a grown -up in talking with other fellow Dutch people, many of whom have been converted,

they saw the same thing.

I don't know what the church was like later on because I left it in my 20s and I'm in my

50s now.

But many of the people my age will share the same testimony that they were in

church, that they assumed they were saved and it wasn't until they got older and heard a gospel

presentation that was complete that they were converted.

Now, did you have any friends growing up in church that demonstrated really

a scandalous, gross sin that would

clearly identify one as an unrepentant unbeliever and yet they were still given a false

assurance that they were saved?

Well, I would say that a number did.

Depending on how you define growth, many of us were typical teenagers that practiced

a lot of sin and yet we were faithfully in church every Sunday and that was not

addressed as a possibility that we were not born again.

We were always exhorted not to backslide and to be

conscious of our reputations in the family and in the church and to live good lives.

But I don't recall ever having anyone make the connection between that and the

possibility of not being born again.

But I would have to say that after leaving the Christian Reformed Church, when I married, we were in a large evangelical

church and they didn't address that issue either.

It was the same problem.

This is not a problem confined to presumptive redemption.

It is more of a Reformed problem.

But just the general problem of an incomplete gospel or some sort of a disconnect between

whether or not born again people can practice sin, that's prevalent in, I think,.

The Christian community at large.

Yeah, the modern evangelical church is very permeated and perhaps even dominated

with what has been nicknamed easy believism and cheap grace

where, unlike the Christian Reformed Church that would baptize

infants presuming they were regenerate, in the modern evangelical church, if

you merely walked an aisle during what has become known as an altar call,

something that doesn't even have a biblical basis, but someone's called

forward to recite a prayer, that person is very often told that they are with certainty

born again and sometimes the minister will even go farther and say, and if you begin

to doubt that that's the devil trying to lie to you and

trying to steer you into uncertainty and depression.

So don't even listen to that doubt in your head.

It could be the Holy Spirit convicting you.

Exactly.

That's exactly what I was told.

At one point, I was really concerned about my spiritual state.

It never dawned on me that I wasn't born again, but I was concerned and even mentioned sort of in

a joking way to a pastor, is it even possible that I don't know the Lord?

And he was very incensed that I would go there and said exactly that thing to me.

Don't doubt.

You've made a profession of faith.

You can't go there.

And so what began to occur in your life when you went to

assuming that you were born again and really didn't need to fear hell in any way, and then

obviously it may have been a gradual thing, but something began to click within you

that you needed to seriously examine your heart and question whether or not you would go to heaven.

How did that start to occur in your life?

Well, actually, it kind of didn't happen until I actually was born again.

The scary part is I never questioned it until I'd had the experience and realized biblically what had happened.

As I said before, the two things that really troubled me in my 20s were the fact that I had no

power over sin and I was told, read more scripture, pray more.

I had written a book that encouraged me to know, reckon, yield, obey.

Regardless of what I did trying to lay hold of my position in Christ and my

resources in Christ, it didn't do any good.

I had no power over sin.

The other thing was because we were in Bible studies, I took note of the fact

that both David in the Old Testament and Paul in the New spoke earnestly and often of

a personal relationship with God, a love relationship with God.

I knew that I didn't have that, that the only thing I felt was a sense of duty and obligation and some

fear of displeasing God and then Him being angry with me.

But there was no sense of love, there was no relationship, and there wasn't even much of a desire there.

There was more fear than anything else.

It was through those two things that the Lord began to speak to me through scripture.

Actually, Bill had quoted a verse in Matthew, it says, He who seeks

to, let's see, I've got it right here.

But if anyone wishes to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake shall find it.

A kind of a question was framed in my mind, when

did you, because I really, really wanted some answers and I had been praying in earnest about it, and

the question was framed in my mind, when did you surrender your life to me?

And I realized I had never done that, I'd never heard to do that.

And in considering that, it was a very fearful thing to me because there were a number of things I didn't want to let go.

But when I did fully surrender my life to the Lordship of Jesus Christ,

my life so radically changed, and it was clear to everyone that something amazing had happened,

that I had to ask the Lord, what just happened to me?

And I felt led to 2 Corinthians 5 17 that says, If any man is in Christ, he is

a new creature.

The old things have passed away, behold all things are new.

Everything so radically changed, but the thing that was the most amazing to me is that heart for

God was present.

The relationship was not based on duty and obligation, a sense of forgiveness was present.

I saw what I had been and what I was now.

My entire life, my focus, perspective, the direction, the things I wanted to do, my relationship with the

Lord, everything was radically changed and I realized then that this was not some second step of

Lordship or something.

This was, I had been born again.

And it shocked me because I thought, I can't believe that I went my

entire lifetime assuming I had a position with Christ I did not.

Have.

We have to go to break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for our guest, Paula Webster, our number is 631

-321 -WNYG 631 -321 -WNYG.

Again, our theme today is we're addressing the question.

Do you treat your children as a mission field or do you presume they are

saved just because they are your children, the children of Christian parents?

And the old question could be posed, does God have

grandchildren?

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Paul Webster.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Orns and our guest today, if you've just tuned us in, is Paula Webster, the wife of

well -known Christian apologist, William Webster, who is also

an author and the founder and director of Christian Resources.

I want to plug a book by Paula's husband, William Webster, that is

really directly on this topic.

Must Jesus be Lord to be Savior?

And this book was first published in 1986 and has been revised and updated and

is actually listed in the bibliography of the very well -known and

controversial book, The Gospel According to Jesus by John MacArthur.

John actually used Bill's book as a resource when writing this book, which really

caused a great stir in the evangelical world.

There were church splits as a result of this and there were publishing wars

going on back and forth, basically, between those that insisted that

all's one needed is a basically a mental assent

to the facts of the gospel and of Jesus Christ and his death and to believe

one is a sinner.

And that in and of itself would bring someone to a rebirth in

Christ.

And that person could very quickly after that born again experience, so -called,

even become apostate, can become an atheist for the rest of his days on earth, even decades after

this so -called born again experience.

And that person would be assured of going to heaven in the theology of many evangelicals.

And Dr. MacArthur was taking a strong stance against this

position that has been nicknamed easy believism and cheap grace.

And his book, The Gospel According to Jesus, which actually just reached

its 20th anniversary in print this year, and I'm looking forward to getting Dr. MacArthur

back on Iron Sharpens Iron to discuss that book once again because the heresy still exists.

But you could go to Christian Resources website, the website of William Webster, christiantruth

.com, christiantruth .com, and look up Must Jesus Be Lord to Be Savior to order

that book, as well as a book called The Gospel of the Reformation, which also deals in some points with this

issue.

And I believe there are at least one or two other books in the collection of things that have been written by Will

Webster that at least touch on that issue.

This book, however, is entirely dedicated to the subject of lordship, salvation versus

easy believism.

Must Jesus Be Lord to Be Savior by William Webster.

Christiantruth .com is the website.

Christiantruth .com.

Paula, what can you say was actually going on in your life

that, I mean, were you involved in any sins that really rattled you?

Actually, before I even go back to that question, we do have an internet listener on the line.

He was calling long distance, so I don't want to keep him holding.

We have Jimmy in Noonan, Georgia.

Welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron, Jimmy.

Hi, Chris.

How are you doing?

Good.

Hi, Paula.

How are you?

Hi, Jimmy.

Listen, I had a question because I came from a Lutheran

background, and it was very similar.

They would preach to the congregation, whether there was children there or not, and everybody heard the same message, but

nobody was really evangelized, so to speak.

But when I was about 12, I came to the knowledge that Christ was my Savior.

I was sorry for my sins, and I believed that I didn't want to go to hell, and I believed that Christ

was the only way.

And I believe at that time, 12 to 13 years old, that I had the experience that people would call a

born -again experience, although there was no great epiphany and no light shined in my eyes or anything like that.

I believe from that time on, I was saved.

I've had bouts with sin here and there, but I've always overcome them.

Would you say that I'm a Christian?

I don't know your heart, but the thing that I'm encouraged about is that you say that you

are in progress, in process, and that when sin comes up, you deal with it.

I think what John MacArthur has said is very true.

You don't go back and look at some sort of a decision.

You examine your life now to see if you're in the faith, and I think the Word of God is real clear.

Those who practice sin need to take another look.

In other words, those who live habitually in sin probably need to

examine themselves, but those who have made a profession of faith and then whose lives are marked by a

desire for holiness and godliness, none of us have a perfect performance, but the fact that that's the

desire of your heart and the practice.

Of your life, I think gives evidence of real genuine faith.

Don't we all struggle with sin.

Every day, Paul?

Yes.

That was another question I had.

We all struggle every single day with some sort of a sin, whether it's an indwelling problem that we

have.

We deal with people addicted to pornography or

alcoholism or something like that.

Others have nothing that they're basically addicted to, but they sin now and then.

Yes, I think there is always going.

To be the battle against sin as long as we live in the bodies we have, but I think

that for the Christian, I think in looking at your life, you have to ask the

question, am I an overcomer?

Do I see victory?

Is the Lord meeting me?

What would I say would be the habit or practice of my life?

If it's godliness and righteousness, then I think that gives evidence of genuine faith,

but if the practice of sin is

what dominates and I'm not seeing victory and I'm constantly living

in sin, then I do think one needs to make one's calling and election sure because.

The Bible is clear.

What would you say about somebody who doubts their salvation on a regular.

Basis?

I'd want to talk to them about why because I know that the enemy can cause genuine Christians to

doubt, but if there is doubt, I think I would want to go back over the gospel presentation that

person heard and make sure that what they heard was complete.

I would want to hear what their testimony was to see if perhaps they had misunderstood something

or were responding to an incomplete gospel.

I don't think I could just say one way or the other whether that would indicate salvation or the lack

thereof, but I would certainly want to walk through it with them.

Okay, to be honest with you, there's a verse that Jesus said in scripture that not all who call

me Lord, Lord.

Some I will say I do not know you.

That's a frightening verse in scripture, even for those of us who believe.

Especially since the people he was talking to were performing all kinds of miracles.

Yes, exactly.

Because of that verse, not necessarily only that verse, but other things, I

sometimes doubt whether I'm elect.

I'm afraid that I'm not elect.

You know what I'm saying?

Even though I believe, I read my scriptures on a daily basis, I pray.

To be the Lord is to me evidence of the work of God in your life.

Yeah, and we're not to be delving into the secret things of God that we are to take

comfort that we are the elect if we are bearing the fruit that Christ told us we would bear if we are the elect, correct?

We're not to be sitting in horror wondering if we are among the number that.

God has ordained unto eternal life.

Well, the fact is that God is not going to turn his back on anyone who is desiring him.

The fact that there is desire there is to me evidence of God working in that life

because none of us would seek him if it were not for the initiative of the Holy Spirit in our.

Lives.

No, not one.

Jimmy, we have to go to a break, but do you want to hold on for one more question when we come back?

No, I'm good.

All right.

Thanks a lot for calling, Jim.

All right.

Bye -bye.

We'll be right back with Paul Webster.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

And if you've just tuned us in, our guest today is Paul Webster, the wife of well -known apologist and author Bill

Webster, who is also the founder and director of Christian Resources.

And we are discussing the question, do you view your children

as a mission field or are your children a mission field in your home?

Or do you just presume they are regenerate because they are the children of Christians?

I wanted to touch on one thing that Jimmy said.

I know that Charles Spurgeon even believed the dearest of saints at times

fear that they may be lost.

Sometimes it's just because they have they have been given a such a strong sensitivity to sin.

Yeah.

And also you have Christians who are in very theologically

poor or heretical denominations or churches or congregations that may be very

legalistic, that maybe where the pastor is putting those kinds of doubts in a genuine

believer's mind all the time over things that are not even

necessarily over things that are not even signs necessarily that one is lost.

They could be just poisoning the person's mind with a constant fear, because obviously we know of

churches that even teach that a person can be saved and be a faithful

disciple of Jesus Christ for decades and lose his or her salvation in an instant.

So that false teaching can also be an unnecessary burden to the mind of a

Christian that sends him into a doubt like that.

Correct?

Yes.

But I wanted to say one thing with.

Reference to what Jimmy said, and that is there are there are people that should doubt.

Yes.

And I was one of them and I absolutely resisted it because I'd been told it was the enemy.

So if a person is, I would say, constantly bombarded, earnestly seek

the Lord.

He will give some sort of confirmation and affirmation there.

Because to ask me or anyone else, I can't imagine giving someone false assurance and

there would be no way for anyone to know the heart of an individual.

So where there is a constant problem with doubt, I would really counsel to earnestly

seek the Lord and seek to know in the word.

Even the book you mentioned, I'm actually rereading the new copy or the new edition of the gospel according to

Jesus.

I would highly recommend reading that book.

It's so clear.

The issues are so clear and one can go through there.

And say, is this true of me?

Yes.

And people falsely accused Dr. MacArthur of teaching works

righteousness.

Yes.

When he wrote that book, they were teaching that he was somehow guilty of the Roman Catholic heresy of

meritorious works or something like that.

You're not teaching that at all.

In fact, that's one of the things that your husband writes very prolifically

against is the notion of a works righteousness salvation.

Yes.

I've never understood the.

Argument.

Actually because if the grace to believe is from God and in believing

if I have to turn, say I'm Hindu or Buddhist or whatever, if I have

to in my mind turn from faith in a false system to faith in Christ, why is it less

grace to turn from sin to the true and living God?

I have never understood why one aspect is viewed as works and the other is not.

They would either be both works.

Or neither.

They're a complete work of grace in the heart and mind.

Yes.

The twin truths of justification by faith alone and that a good

tree will bear good fruit must be preached together, but they must be

differentiated.

Wouldn't you say that we have to make very clear that the good works that will out of

necessity be evident in the life of a Christian have nothing to do with the person becoming a Christian?

Exactly.

What I was starting to ask you before Jimmy from Newnham, Georgia called is that it's

probably still hard for many of our listeners to understand what could have been going on in your life that possessed

you to doubt your salvation unless you were involved in some kind of overtly immoral

activity or you just didn't love the Lord or love worshipping Him

or love reading His word or perhaps you were just in a state of

neutrality, of apathy.

What was going on that rattled you so that made you start to examine your

state, your salvific state?

It was a battle that was in my mind alone.

I don't think anyone.

Else had any idea what was going on.

There were a number of issues with respect to fear.

There were some obedience issues with respect to the Lord, some habits, the

closet smoker.

I was desperately trying to quit that.

There were just a number of either attitudinal issues, sin issues in my heart and life that I

knew were wrong and I knew I needed to repent from, but as hard as I

tried I could not lay hold of the Lord for the power to do it.

I knew I was a hypocrite and a Pharisee and we were leading Bible studies and the

sense of guilt that I felt knowing that they would be

horrified, those who were under my leadership would be horrified to know what my heart was really

like and where I was really living.

Really that was what prompted the search or the earnest prayer that the

Lord...

I wanted reality.

I wanted to be authentic on the inside.

I thought this is ridiculous.

If Christianity doesn't work in the inner man then it doesn't work.

It's not about morality.

It's not about religion.

I just don't want to be a church goer.

I want a relationship and I want holiness and I can't get there from.

There.

And that kind of passion within you for those things was absent previously in

your life?

Yes.

I was content for years to be religious because I wasn't

exposed to more, but I would say in the late 70's I met a woman

who at the time was in her 70's who was utterly

Christ -like.

This was a woman that I had never met anyone like her.

Not only was she doctrinally sound, but this woman had a relationship with the Lord and had a

holy life and for the first time in my life I bumped into somebody who

in every way exemplified what a Christian should be on this earth and I wanted what she had

and I wanted to be like her, not having any idea that what was going to be involved was a total heart

change, a conversion.

But it goes to show you the power of a single life because that one woman created a desire, well the Lord used

her to create a desire.

In me to be like her.

Yeah, wouldn't you say that one of the most dangerous states to be in is

the kind of false

comfort one is receiving for himself that he or she has saved when you are

really a reflection of Pharisee -ism where you do not see

yourself committing what have been called gross or overtly

scandalous sins.

You're not committing adultery, you're not a drug addict, you're not using vulgarity

and so forth and you list up all these things in your mind that you're not doing just like

the Pharisee who was praying in the temple, Lord I thank you that I'm not a sinner like this tax collector

and you start to point the finger at others being lost and you take such pride in the fact

of all the things that you don't do that are scandalous and all the things that you do do in a religious level.

Oh, I go to not only church twice every Sunday but I go to a prayer meeting and I do all these

things, I serve on the diaconate board and blah, blah, blah.

There's a very big danger in having a cold, dead, lost heart and yet being very actively

religious and proud, correct?

Absolutely, that's why I think it is so important in our gospel presentations and on a regular basis to

talk about the demands of the law, accountability to God, what is sin, to constantly raise the bar

so that we're not examining ourselves horizontally with respect to others but we are

always the standard, the bar we're using is the Lord Jesus Christ and the standard of scripture about what it

means to be a true Christian.

I think so many of our presentations of the gospel not only finish up with the easy

believism, the absence of repentance and lordship but they don't

adequately define or explain sin and the law and our accountability to.

God as it should.

One thing that is typically evident in a false convert who is very religiously active

and self -righteously pious is that there's often a lack of mercy and forgiveness on their.

Part towards others.

Yes and generally speaking the emphasis becomes on performance and outward

activities and as you say there isn't a sensitivity to sin in the personal life and therefore there's.

No mercy with respect to others.

I would agree with that.

So what happened after, tell us something more about this crisis event

when you came to realize that you believed yourself to be lost and you cried out in repentance to Christ

and there was obviously a dramatic shift in a theological understanding in regard to salvation at that

point.

Well it prompted a real search of.

Scripture to begin to understand.

I thought I want to know what the scriptures say about the gospel, I want to understand what really

happens at conversion.

So it prompted I would say a lifelong study of the gospel,

its content, its application, how it should be preached, how it should be shared,

everything about it and it grew into a tremendous conviction and burden for others in

my situation.

I would say that my burden is for the church lost, the pew sitter who has heard and

assumed he's saved and is not and that's my prayer burden and I am always very

thrilled to be able to have an opportunity to share my testimony and talk with them.

The changes were dramatic and permanent and while the

performance is clearly not perfect I'm so thankful for all the Lord did at that point and it

has been like I've said, there was a change in my life and I've been

moving in a new direction ever since.

It did create a real problem in my family, many of my family, not my immediate family, but my

extended family did not understand what I was talking about.

It created a real furor within our church family

because many said to us exactly what you said earlier about that we were somehow

embracing a different gospel, we were promoting a works based gospel.

We had been involved in ministry and the doors on that closed.

It was a dramatic turning point for both of us but it also

was the point at which Bill began to research

the scriptures and to examine the gospel and it became

the basis for the book, Must Jesus be Lord, to be Savior.

It was a real turning point for both of us, for him theologically and for me both.

Theologically and practically in my conversion.

Yeah, it is fascinating that a reformed denomination would be guilty of

that sort of heretical belief knowing that the reformers this seems

to be absent among them.

None of them that I know of wrote that one should presume that their children are saved just because they are the children

of Christian parents.

And even later in the history of the Puritans and so on, this seems to be a

thing that would have been a novelty up until the 19th century or so, correct?

Yes, as I read I am reformed and I love the Puritans and I love to read and

so many of them are very, very clear about the need to present the gospel.

They are clear about the gospel.

They are clear about evangelizing children.

I am kind of stumped as to know how this sort of thing evolved to the place where

the assumption was that you didn't need to evangelize children.

We have to go to break right now.

Don't go away.

We will be right back with the final edition of today's interview with Paula Webster.

Welcome back.

Paula, how would you respond to somebody who would charge you with morbid

introspection that you are behaving in such a detrimental,

self -absorbed way that you are looking to find any fault within yourself to doubt your

salvation?

How would you respond to that kind of a charge?

I would have been happy not to look at it.

I would have been happy to avoid it and it was, I believe, a work of the Holy Spirit to show me that

there were a number of sins that I had committed as a teenager and on into my twenties.

I had to ask the question, how can, if I am consistent with scripture, how can a Christian live

in that?

How could I do that and be okay with that and then how can I not have the power

to deal with it?

It was not morbid introspection that drove me.

It was a desire to be right with God.

It was a desire to have a holy life.

It was a desire to live consistently with the word of God and to be authentic.

I thought, I can't be in ministry and be a hypocrite and a Pharisee.

If Christianity does not work, then I am going to look elsewhere.

So these were all questions that I believe were prompted by the Holy Spirit in order to get me

to earnestly seek the Lord for answers, which is what happened.

Some of the theological opponents of Dr. John MacArthur, who we mentioned earlier, the

author of the very well -known and controversial book, The Gospel According to Jesus, some accused

him and still accuse him of teaching the heresy of perfectionism.

You are not guilty here of that, are you?

No.

I would be the first and then my family would be.

The second to testify to the fact that I am not perfect.

It is not a perfect performance, but it is a perfect heart in the sense of, I think for every

true Christian, reading J .C. Rowell recently on holiness, the issue is

love for Christ.

That was what was missing, desire for a holy life.

It is not about religion and duty, it is about relationship and obedience from a heart of loving gratitude for all that Christ

has done and all that He is.

But it is not perfectionism.

I don't believe in perfectionism until I get to heaven, but I do believe that one can have in Christ

a heart that desires to live holy in Christ Jesus and to seek Him with all

that is in us.

Yeah, and wouldn't you say that one of the dangers of having a

numbed conscious, if you will, or a dead one regarding

your state before God as to whether or not you are a Christian, is that

people have a tendency to compare themselves with people who may be

outwardly a lot worse than they are.

Instead of comparing themselves to Christ or comparing themselves to the disciples or the great heroes of the

faith, they are usually comparing themselves to somebody who is overtly wicked in some way.

There are prison inmates that may take pride in the fact, yeah, I may have killed my mother, but the

guy in the cell next to me tortured her before he killed her or whatever.

People take pride over things that to many of us would seem absurd.

But isn't that a danger, who we are comparing ourselves to?

Yes, that's why I think constant exposure.

To the Word of God, to solid preaching to a right gospel and seeking the Lord with all that we

are, that was what was encouraged by the Reformers.

God will bear witness to our sin.

He will bear witness to a work in us.

He will answer the heartfelt cries of a broken and a contrite heart if we will

seek the Lord and also use the Word of God as a standard for determining where we are,.

If we are honest about where we really are.

Well, I would like you to close the program with what you most want to have engraved on the

hearts and minds of our listeners when they leave.

Today's broadcast.

I would say that if there is anyone in the listening audience that really has sincere doubts based on

the fact that they are not sure about the gospel they heard, perhaps there wasn't a clear

conversion, perhaps there is not victory over sin, there is not a desire for holiness or a

love for Christ, to make their calling and election sure.

I would really encourage, since you mentioned it, reading this book, The Gospel According to Jesus.

It is a very clear and thorough examination of the gospel that was presented in the book of Matthew by Jesus

himself and would be everything I would want to share and don't have time to share.

Yes, and I would also urge you to order Must Jesus Be Lord to Be Savior by Paula's husband,

Bill Webster, at ChristianTruth .com.

ChristianTruth .com, that's just an excellent resource for a whole field of

apologetics issues, many involving apologetics with Roman Catholic

opponents to the doctrines of grace and some involving the heresies of modern evangelicalism.

But Bill Webster is a very, very gifted apologist and writer and he writes

clearly and he is easily understood, so you don't have to be intimidated by picking up a

book by Bill in fear that you're not going to understand a word he says.

That's ChristianTruth .com, ChristianTruth .com to order any of Bill Webster's materials

and audio tapes and DVDs and CDs.

Thank you so much, Paula Webster.

It was great having you back on the program.

I really look forward to having you back on the program and also I'm looking forward to having your husband back on very

soon to discuss one of his books.

Good.

Thank you, Chris.

Thank you so much.

I want all of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far

greater Savior than you are a sinner.

God bless.

And that was the interview that I conducted on October 15,

2008 on the old Iron Trip and Zion Radio, the old call -in version out of

New York on WNYG and WGBB radio in Babylon, Long Island.

That was Paula Webster, the wife of

my dear friend William Webster, founder of Christian Resources, apologist, author,

and guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

In fact, he and my other friend David T. King were recently on

Iron Trip and Zion Radio twice to discuss part one and part two of the

lie of Rome that Sola Scriptura is an invention of the

reformers.

You may have heard that.

In fact, one of those programs, part one or part two,

was the second most downloaded interview in 2018 on

Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Well, Paula, in fact, at that time when I just did that last interview

with William Webster and David T. King, Bill had not known that

his wife's cancer had returned.

She had battled cancer for quite a while, was in remission as

recently as five months ago, and then during her most recent

doctor's visit was given the very grim prognosis of having a week to live, and within a

matter of three days, I believe, she departed this earth and entered into glory with Christ.

Please pray for Bill Webster and his family.

That date again where Paula entered into glory with Christ

was January 25th, 2019.

As I said, please pray for William Webster and his family, and we look forward to

Bill returning to Iron Trip and Zion Radio again, hopefully very soon.

The grieving process, as someone who knows this firsthand, it's a tricky thing because

the initial stages, you might not even be hit as hard as you will be later on.

Sometimes there is a surreal stage when you're not

even quite totally conscious of what has just happened, and then

later on it hits you harder, especially when those that love you, who have been clamoring

around you immediately following the death of a loved one with phone calls and cards and visits,

when that dies down as it typically does, that's sometimes when it even gets

harder for you to deal with the loss that you've experienced.

So, as I said, please pray for William Webster.

I can't repeat that enough, and if you want to get in contact with William Webster, you can

go to his website christiantruth .com, christiantruth .com, not only to order

some phenomenal books that he has written or books that he offers by other authors, but

also just to extend to him your words of encouragement and comfort at this time.

And I urge you not to go away, because when we return from the station break, we will be joined

live by Elizabeth WD Groves, who teaches Hebrew

at Westminster Theological Seminary in Glenside, Pennsylvania, and she is the author

of Becoming a Widow, The Ache of Missing Your Other Half.

She's going to be addressing another book, Grief Undone, A Journey with God and Cancer,

and obviously a very relevant topic to conclude the second half of our program

with.

So we hope that you stay tuned and listen to that coming up in just about 10

minutes or so after our station break, which is a longer station break than normal because of the

fact that we have Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, airing this program,

and they need to localize Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with their own public service announcements and

commercials.

So during this time, please use the break wisely by writing down information

provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them.

But in addition to that, write down questions for Elizabeth WD Groves about

Grief Undone, A Journey with God and Cancer.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after the station.

Break, and we hope to hear from you with your questions.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, and I just want to give a brief word to all of you

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They have fallen into a financial rut recently, so we're asking you to please, more

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fallen into, God willing temporarily, with your help.

And we are now being joined by a woman who has something to say to

us that is very relevant to our discussion today.

As many of you know, who were listening obviously for the first half of the program, we were paying

tribute to Paula Webster, the wife of Christian apologist

William Webster, who has written books for Banner of Truth and other publishers.

Paula Webster just went home to be with the Lord very recently after a battle with cancer.

She departed this earth at the age of 69, and obviously there

is a bittersweet response to this

from those who knew her because of the fact that it is very sad that a woman

left this earth at a relatively young age, who is a dear, sweet, and valuable

member of the body of Christ, but also the sweet part comes in knowing that she would not trade

places right now with any of us being in the presence of Christ for eternity, and I'm

sure that is an enormous comfort to William Webster and his family.

By the way, if anybody wants to receive in written form Paula Webster's

testimony, please send me an email to chrisarnson at

gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and

I will email you a written version of Paula Webster's testimony, and in fact, as I

said before, James Montgomery Boyce, who perhaps is having a chat with

Paula Webster in heaven right now, he included a part of Paula Webster's testimony in his own

commentary in the Book of Romans.

So chrisarnson at gmail .com is my email address if you want that written testimony.

But now we are joined by Elizabeth W .D. Groves.

She teaches Hebrew at Westminster Theological Seminary and is the author of Becoming a Widow,

The Ache of Missing Your Other Half.

We're going to be discussing a different book that she has written titled Grief Undone, A Journey with God and

Cancer, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio,

Elizabeth W .D. Groves.

Thank you very much, Chris, and can.

I just say I'm so sorry to you and to Bill and other people who loved Paula,

what you're feeling.

Right now.

Well, I appreciate that very much, and typically when we have a very first time

guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Elizabeth, should I call you Elizabeth or Libby?

Either one is fine.

Because that just so our listeners know, Libby is a nickname that she goes by very frequently.

But what we do very often when we have first time guests, we have them give a

summarized version of their own testimony of salvation.

And if you could do that for us now and then we can pick up to when

and where and how you met your late husband and proceed from there as to the reason.

That you wrote both Becoming a Widow and also Grief Undone.

Okay, sure.

I went, my family went to a church when I was young, not necessarily all the

time, but with some regularity.

It was a pretty liberal church.

Looking back on it, I'm pretty sure one of my sons was a believer.

I recall it as a child, perhaps was not crystal clear.

Maybe I just didn't have ears to hear.

But we moved when I was in seventh grade.

I just was working on

my heart, drawing me through his word.

I just kept hearing the story of Jesus taking a

walk late at night in the dark with his way out in the country.

And it must have been an abuse.

What will you

do with this man, Jesus?

And I realized I had to make a decision.

And I think it was just by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

I suddenly was just aware, keenly aware, that God, he

had sent his

son to die in my place so that I could be forgiven and be in a relationship

with him.

It's, I

think, probably any Christian you talk to would say, you know, the journey of faith over a lifetime has ups and downs.

I feel more like,

because of one thing or another, the Lord was using wonderful fellowships, sitting under wonderful teaching, going

through hard experiences, whatever he chooses to use.

And so,

um,

my life was, give a

lot to have, I think,

wrenching and

crushing.

I had a very nice life just of being

away from God.

Praise God.

And before we go into how you met your husband,.

How did you wind up teaching Hebrew at Westminster Theological Seminary?

Some who know the history of Westminster and who perhaps are even

former students there or professors, they may raise their eyebrows to know that there is a

female teaching Hebrew.

On the faculty there.

Tell us how you wound up there.

Well, that was very much a God thing, too.

When my husband came to Westminster as a student in 1979, he and I took Hebrew together, and I

kept it up for a while, and then I was out of

my brain.

But my husband suffered from fibromyalgia for many years.

That's not what he died of, but for a couple of decades, he struggled.

His health was

deteriorating

enough that I realized he

will not be able to work, and I will need to.

And maybe I need to think about

some...

And finished, and during that period, Al

was diagnosed with cancer.

He died in February of 2007.

I was close enough to the end to finish it

up.

Last year of my schooling, I had just turned 50 in January, and a friend of mine does

career counseling, and she said, for your birthday, I would like to give you career counseling.

I said, that would be fantastic.

Thank you.

So, it was four sessions, and we did the first one not long after my birthday in January to

help the kids walk

through grief, one thing or another, that we never got back to those sessions until August.

So, we finished up at the end of August.

Well, I can see, you know, you really like these things, and you're good at these things.

ESL, English as a Second Language.

So, she said, maybe you could volunteer in an ESL classroom just to

see it in action and get a better sense of...

And I remember at the time thinking, that sounds like an excellent...

So, I

knew

that by the next...

I prayed, I said,

Lord, I don't

know, something that would move this

process.

And probably two days, certainly not more than a week later,

a friend of mine who was teaching Hebrew at the time called me two days into

the fall.

So, if I had not just had that conversation with the Lord,

I would have said, I would absolutely love to, but I had just prayed that the Lord would open up time

for me to do something to move this process forward.

So, I said, yes.

And I loved...

Anyway,

it turned out that that is...

She learned probably midway through the fall.

And so, really, the Lord

just had

many people on the planet.

Praise God.

Now, just for the sake of...

This is not the subject of our discussion today.

How would you put the minds of complementarians at rest that you have not

violated some kind of biblical precept by.

Being a female teaching Hebrew in a seminar?

Obviously, there are many different points of view on that question.

I guess I would say two things, that I'm just teaching Hebrew, I'm just teaching language.

It's not as if I'm teaching people to preach or anything substantive like that.

Right.

And that my...

Amen.

And you

have women on the mission field who have been

teaching.

People the scriptures who were bilingual and so on, who were able to

convey the scriptures to those of different lands who would not have understood English and so on.

This is something that has been done for centuries.

Yes.

But now, let's find out, before we go into more detail about the loss of your husband,

more about how you two and God's providence met and fell in love and so on.

Um, we went to the same college, although Al was five years younger than I, and so he

had finished his undergrad, but he

was still involved in... fell in

love, got married, he was pastoring

a small church in... 50 people in that village,

and then he came to

seminary.

So he kind of did things back... at least at that time.

I can't speak as authoritatively now about the spiritual state of northern New England, but

at the time it was a relatively dark place.

And so people... in the past, he realized, oh my

goodness, I need

better training, I need to know

this.

Now, how did you first discover that Al had been...

basically got cancer,.

Tragically?

How did this come about?

Um, he had a spot on his shoulder that looked kind of ugly, um, and so he had that

removed and biopsied, no problem.

It came back maybe a year later, I don't remember

exactly.

Looking back, no one went immediately and had him, um,

but I think because it had already been biopsied and shown to

be clear, he should have, um, and he... he had

an extraordinarily busy life.

I think he hardly did...

He was the one who needed to call

Nick, um, and he was so busy.

It was a while before he called, and then it was a while.

We also didn't know to communicate to the people there.

This is... so he had an appointment, so it

was just... I can change things, but I can't.

Um, anyway, so... so they also removed that spot, biopsied it, and... and that... the pathology

was unclear.

There was clearly, um, odd tissue skin level,

the scar tissue for something else, and so he... he had

surgery, and they removed a huge patch, um, all

the... October of

04.

Um, he had the chest x -ray, and everything was great.

January of 06, he had the regular chest

x -ray.

It took a while.

It took almost a month and whatnot to get that biopsy.

Late -ish February of 06 that we had, and

because it was in

both his office...

Now, when you say it was in his lungs, did he experience, uh, any kind of distressing.

Symptoms in regard to his breathing, or, uh...

Not at that time.

No, not... not until the following fall, then he... I

don't know how much it bothered his breathing, but he would cough up little bits of blood throughout the day.

Um, but no, at the time of diagnosis, he... he felt absolutely fine.

Well, apart from the fibromyalgia, he felt as fine as he ever...

Wow.

Um, yeah.

And so, uh,.

How long did he live after being diagnosed?

Um, just shy of a year.

Wow.

Now, one thing I'm certain you would agree with is that, uh, most

people, I think, or at least many, who have lost loved ones,

uh, or perhaps they are dying themselves from an illness, they have these regrets

about, if I had only done this or that differently, as you were basically saying before, I wish I could have turned back the clock,

don't we need to find rest in God's providence and sovereignty over these things when...

Yeah.

...we start beating ourselves up over what we should or could have

done if we had, you know, as we look upon things,.

Uh, in hindsight?

...believe that... that... that he is sovereign, and I say that not... you can

hear God is sovereign as a very cold...

Right.

...out there someplace in the abstract world, and that's... that's actually not what I mean when I say

he is sovereign and is in control of all things and can do anything,

and sometimes he chooses to walk you in hard places, walk you through very hard things, walk

you perhaps not because he doesn't care, but he does care, and he is a

father who walks with you.

But, you know, regret, I mean, I would just say I have sometimes

thought of all the human emotions it could

be, and I think, um, if you bring

that, whatever it is, you know, I left my child in that.

I mean, you could do anything that you regret.

Right, you could torture yourself over and over and over.

Exactly, and I think, ultimately, and I'm not saying this is easy, but I think to come and lay that

before could have made it go differently,

and you didn't, and help me,

please, love me,

and who loves you, please,

to lay what somebody else is responsible for, blah, blah, blah.

Um, and again, I'm not saying that as if it's an easy thing to do, but I think it is, it will chew

you up.

Amen.

I have a question from an anonymous.

Listener, which I'm going to read to you, and then when we come back from our

last break, I'd like you to answer that question.

Okay.

The anonymous listener says, I need some advice on how

to evangelize someone who is dying, who I strongly believe is lost.

During these times, we want to cheer people up, we want to be kind and gentle to them, we don't

want to rattle them, but at the same time, if they are about to depart this earth, we know that we

must bring them the gospel, and should not have comfort until they respond

affirmingly.

I also know that God is in control over all this, but at the same time, we do have responsibilities to

evangelize.

How do I do so without crossing the line of either being too soft

or too harsh when doing this at a bedside of a dying person?

And we'll have you respond to that when we come back from our final break.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question for Libby, our email address is chrisarnson at

gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away, God willing, we will be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Well, we are now back with our guest Libby Groves, who is teaching Hebrew at Westminster

Theological Seminary and is the author of Becoming a Widow, the Ache of Missing Your Other Half.

We have been discussing her book, Grief Undone, A Journey with God and Cancer, and before the break you

may remember, Libby, that somebody basically was asking, how do you avoid being too soft

or being too frightening and harsh to somebody on their.

Deathbed that you're seeking to evangelize before they depart this earth?

Well, obviously that is going to depend somewhat,

but I would say a few

things.

Number one, the second

thing is to think of, you know, recognize that this is a person, this is a precious

individual made in the image of God, and there's not a one -size -fits -all answer to that question,

so to be as individually personal with them as possible and

love.

And, you know, you might just, you know, you could do it

gently, you could say,

it also matters, have they

accepted this even more gentle, perhaps.

I would love

to share with you something that gives me so much hope, and they

might say yes and they might say no.

If they say yes, then you have an opportunity to share.

If they are somebody who is just really,

you know, violently trying to hear this, then

preaching to them, it's something that I

think you really

have to tailor it to who

they are.

But another thing, I think there can be a sense for us, I have certainly some

motivation that almost comes out of fear more than love, the fear of

my head.

And, you know, you read in the scripture about

this blood thing on the watchman's head and so forth, but I think that

that might be the right motivation.

And so I think if that's what's driving it, maybe to step back and look at your own heart

and help me to know how to approach it.

And I think sometimes people are surprised when you

say to them, you know, me, but

would it be okay with you?

I know religious people can come across as being, are you comfortable?

Would you be comfortable if I just shared a thought with you?

I think sometimes people are surprised to find out that Christians are actually aware that we can be obnoxious.

And that alone might be, whoa, wow, yeah, sure.

Yeah, yeah, I can remember when I was a new Christian, this is about 30 years ago,

I had found out that my family doctor, the doctor who had delivered

at least several of the Ornson children, there were five of us, I was the youngest.

And we continued seeing him as a doctor through adulthood, at least early adulthood.

But I had found out that he had cancer.

And I visited his home one day, which was the same house where he had his medical

practice.

And he had been retired at this point.

And I gave him a card.

And I remember I was very specific in the card of his need to embrace Christ,

in order to enjoy and experience eternal life in heaven.

And I basically said to him, although I pray that you survive this cancer, it will be a

win win situation either way, if you embrace Christ, because you will be spending an eternity with him in

indescribable joy, even if you lose your battle to cancer.

And I don't remember exactly how I worded it, because it was 30 years ago.

But I remember my dad being upset with me, that I wrote this, and he was saying, you're going to be troubling

this elderly man while he's dying.

And he was very upset.

And I said, Dad, I care more about his eternal soul than I do about how he might feel either way.

And I remember I was not overly harsh in the way I worded it either.

But he survived, I think, several more years.

And I went to the wake, as at least Catholics call them.

I don't know if other folks call the viewing the wake, but I

went to his wake.

And one of his daughters, before I was a believer, was my

barmaid, one of them anyway, because I was a frequenter of taverns she was

one of the bartenders.

And she immediately embraced me, was so happy to see me.

And she introduced me to her sister.

And she said, this is my friend, Chris Arnzen.

And she said, what's your name?

I said, Chris Arnzen.

She said, are you the one that wrote the card?

I said, yes.

She said, did you know that for these last few years, while my dad was dying, he had that

card on his nightstand, and it was still there the day he died?

And one can only wonder, providentially, what the Lord did with what I wrote in there.

So that was just a little anecdote there, about a personal experience, about

trying to be truthful to somebody who's dying.

Truthful and sensitive.

Yeah, that's wonderful.

Yes.

And I know that already that we have to have you back on the program, because we only have eight minutes left, and there's

much more that I want you to talk about.

But can you tell us why, with all the books written about grief, even

from theologically reformed sources, why you said to yourself, I think that I need to add

another book to.

The volumes that are already available?

That's not quite how it went.

It never occurred to me to write a book.

And when people suggested it, I said, no, I can't write a book.

When Al received his diagnosis,

he knew some people, because he had taught at seminary for

those students who had gone out all around the world, and he was just a people person.

He was very happy to talk to the point that we found out this, and so

on.

And so a friend of ours said, how about if I set up a blog for you?

We'd never heard of a blog.

Blogs were a brand new, cutting -edge thing back then.

But she did, and that was great, because then if people were interested, they could tune in to the blog, and they weren't

troubled by all these emails coming to them.

But to our astonishment, people, I don't know, I want to say

thousands, maybe I'm not remembering right, an astonishing number of people around the

world, probably, would check

the blog.

People said, oh, you should turn that into a book.

But it wasn't until a publisher came, we would really like you to turn this into a book,

that I thought, maybe I should at least pray about this, rather than dismissing it out of hand.

And the only thing, I think, I can only think of two reasons that people might have been interested in the blog.

One was just because they knew and loved Al.

And the other is that, because we were writing it in real, I think

people had the experience.

And so if you knew somebody who, I mean, could I just move into your living room and watch you

do that?

It's a very intrusive opportunity to say, to see what

might you be living with.

It was not my

idea to put it into a book.

Well, I can see value in this because, one of the reasons, is because

we are not cookie cutter duplicates of one another.

And the more, the merrier, as the saying goes, when it comes to books, especially perhaps on something like

this, that we will all be going through at some point in our lives.

And because of the fact that every person reacts differently and can react

in a wide spectrum of ways, even as regenerate believers in Christ,

I think that we could have used more voices to convey how others have

experienced such a heart -wrenching trial in their lives.

And if you could, I'd really like you to close today with about three minutes of

commentary of what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about grief, before we go off the air today.

Off the top of my head, that grief is, it's

definitely, even

if it's the

fear, but maybe more than

anything, justice.

I mean,

Jesus lived in this.

He lost people he loved.

He knows what that

ends.

He will be with you, whether you are the person

facing death, or you're

clinging to the

scriptures, to prayer, to fellowship.

But sometimes, you know, in grief, you almost can't even do that yourself.

And so, to reach out for help, not to be afraid or embarrassed,

laundry, whatever it is, it can be very, very practical, but don't be

afraid.

I think that's.

Part of being with people.

Amen.

And how would you counsel those that are witnessing their friends or loved ones going through the

period of grief?

Some people are afraid to intrude upon somebody's private, intimate world in that way.

How would you, in about a minute's time,.

Give us some good counsel on that?

Right.

And again, it's so individual.

Some people,

you know, make your best guess.

Would it be helpful if I came and picked up your laundry and took it

home and let them tell you?

And give them the opportunity to

say no.

If there's something I can do, let

me know.

Praise God.

Well, I want to let our listeners know that if you.

Would like to purchase a copy of Grief Undone, A Journey with God and Cancer,

please go to cvbbs .com, our sponsors, because they carry

a large assortment of New Growth Press titles.

New Growth Press is the publisher.

So go to cvbbs .com and order that.

Also, to repeat the website of William Webster, who we dedicated the

first hour to regarding his late wife Paula, who just departed

from the earth very recently on January 25th, William Webster's website is christiantruth

.com, christiantruth .com.

Libby, if you could just hold on the line, because I want to say a proper goodbye to you off the air.

And I want to once again ask everyone to continue to pray for William Webster and his family as they

go through this period of mourning after losing their precious Paula.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.