History of CARM with Matt Slick

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No purchase necessary. Full word. Related by law. 18 plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. Today on The Rappaport, where I am your host, Andrew Rappaport, we will have a little treat for you.

Digging around through some old files, I found an interview that I did with Matt Slick from Karm .org. Now, let me set the stage for this. This was a documentary being done on Matt Slick about Karm and how he started it.

They asked me if I would do an interview with him and they were going to edit this and put it into the documentary. What you're going to hear is the raw file. You're going to get to hear Matt kid around with me a bit, some quick answers he likes to do, but much of it went into the documentary, not some of the jokes that went aside.

I think this will be helpful for you to see just what God can do with one person who's faithful to God and seeks to be used by him some 25 years later. If you're not familiar with Karm .org, Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, go to Karm .org.

It's a huge apologetics site, tons and tons of articles there. I have to admit Matt is a personal friend of mine and so you're going to see some of that come out in the interview as we go through, but a lot of it really is just Matt answering questions about the organization.

It was informative. It was neat. It was good to be part of it and I hope you will enjoy that right now coming to you on The Wrap Report.

One, two, three. The Wrap Report with your host, Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application. This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community.

For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org. Do you want to look at the questions real quick? Okay. So you know where we're headed? Okay. We're just leaving?

Oh, you want to? Yeah. Yeah. I'll ask them. Oh, you have them? Oh. Well, you can just do it that way.

Whatever you want. I'll do it. I have it here and you have them there. Okay. Is it recording? It's already good? All right. Go for it. Take the lead. I'll just respond. So who are you? I don't know. Oh, you want a serious answer.

Okay. Here we go. All right. I'm Matt Slick, the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. It's something I started 21 years ago in response to a lot of the heresies and false teachings of this new thing called the Internet.

And so I started the website so that I didn't have to answer people's emails all over the place the same way at the same time. I just said, hey, go to this website address, and that's how Karma Got Started.

And so I am the founder and director of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry. You just answered like five in one. Oh. It's okay. Oh, no. I can do more. Yeah. What do you do? What do I do? Okay.

Apologetics as Defending the Christian Faith

So what I do is I respond to the heresies outside the Christian church, heresies inside the Christian church, and I try and equip Christians with the knowledge that they need to be able to defend the Christian faith and promote the kingdom of God and bring glory to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

So to do that, I'll teach apologetics in varying degrees. Generally, I'll go with presuppositional apologetics. It's the easiest, most powerful for Christians to learn, and it provides all kinds of answers to all kinds of questions that a lot of Christians have.

They don't know how to answer. I get the privilege of being able to study a lot, study all the time. So I get to do what they can't and provide answers. That's what I do. Why do you do what you do? I do what I do because it's a response to the saving work that Jesus did on me, performed upon me, when I was 17.

Back then, I was at a church that had a very dramatic, very profound conversion experience, and it's on my website. A lot of people are surprised when they see what happens and they hear what happened, but it was a direct, let's just say, direct presence of God Himself.

And I was reduced to, just as I say, a sobbing mass of repenting tears. And later on, in response to some stuff that was said by Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, where he boasted he did more than even Jesus to keep the church together, it got me so upset that what I did was started to study what Mormonism taught.

From there, I went to Jehovah's Witnesses. And then, it just turned out I had this ability to remember Scripture and to be able to argue logically and coherently, and that's what people say about me. And so that's why I do it.

I do it in order to defend the Christian faith and to bring glory to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I can't keep quiet about Jesus. I must speak of Him wherever I go. I just do. It's what I look to do.

That's why I do it. How long have you been doing this? Well, I've been doing apologetics since 1980. So it's 2017, so that's 37 years. So I've been doing this a long time, and just basically since 1980.

That's when I started apologetics. The CARM website started in, well, 1995, October of 1995, so it'll be 22 years old this year.

What are some of the challenges to this work?

Well, the challenges of this work are numerous. One is keeping up with the list of demands that the ministry requires. For example, answering, well, emails. I have two main email accounts, and between the two of them, there's over 3 ,000 emails in them, and that's not an exaggeration, well over 3 ,000.

And that's one of the challenges, keeping up with them. Plus, there's phone calls. Today, I was on the phone with a guy in Montana. I was supposed to talk to another guy about salvation, and I do the radio.

I teach. Now, answering questions is a full-time job. Studying heresies is another full-time job. Studying varying degrees of what I would call heterodox teachings is another issue. So when I study, what I have to do is dive into, for days, for weeks sometimes, into varying heresies, varying theological perspectives.

Sometimes it won't be heresies. I just have to weed out the dross, so to speak, and get in and find the good stuff, then write about it. And so it's challenging. And then we have people who react to some of the things I'll say, and then you've got to deal with those things.

Then there's the spiritual attacks that occur. There's a lot of spiritual oppression. Some of the other challenges are working with the people that we are employing in other countries, and dealing with them, and helping them, and promoting them in other countries and other languages to do the same kind of a thing.

So the challenge is tough. And another challenge is, in all seriousness, is humility. Because when you know a lot of things, you can become prideful. And so I like to say, in joking, I pride myself in my humility.

That's all a joke. But the thing is that when you know a lot, when you've been studying basically for thousands and thousands and thousands of hours, and you have the privilege of being able to study full-time five, six, seven days a week, and I love doing it, you'll learn a lot.

And so that's another challenge, is just, well, trying to retain some humility before God and before people.

And that is a challenge. Why do you think it takes so long to study one issue out?

It takes a long time to study one issue, because in order to know it properly, to represent it properly, and then decide based on analysis with Scripture, whether it's within Christianity, without Christianity, or if it's within Christianity, what are some of the errors that might be related to it in respect to various doctrines?

So it just takes a long time to study what they say, and to understand what they say. So one group, for example, I'm studying is the New Apostolic Reformation. I've been studying it for weeks now. I don't know how many hours I've got in of reading and researching and dialoguing, going to California to meet, to go to one church where they teach this stuff, getting books.

It just takes a lot of study. Because when you put your articles out there, they better be well-researched, they better be accurate, and be ready for the onslaught of counter-arguments that will come back at you.

So one of the reasons it takes so long is because I have to prepare ahead of time, so that if someone is going to respond to something, I have the quotes, I have the information. And then usually what will happen is I'll write more articles based on their objections, so they don't realize they're helping me to expand the ministry and stuff like that.

So it takes a lot of work to be able to do this, and it's a slow thing.

The Goal of Apologetics Is to Glorify Christ and Advance His Kingdom

What would you say is your goal in doing what you do?

To bring glory to the Lord Jesus Christ and to further His kingdom, flat out. That's the goal. And a secondary goal is to equip Christians with what they need to do to be able to take over the planet for Jesus.

That's it. I believe in trusting God and going forward, moving forward with the power of the gospel. The gates of hell, Matthew 16 and 18, will not prevail against the church. Gates don't do anything, we knock them down.

And I believe in an aggressive kind of Christianity as well as a passive one. We are to take every thought captive, 2 Corinthians 10 and 5. We're to give answers to everyone who would ask us, 1 Peter 3 .15.

We are to understand doctrine properly, 2 Timothy 2 .15. And to do that, sometimes we need to be aggressive, not in a mean sense, but we need to be aggressive and go forward. And sometimes it's defensive as we are responding to the attacks on the faith.

And that's what we need to do. So what are some of the positives of this kind of work? Some of the positives, hold on.

Some of the positives of this kind of work are that I get to bring glory to Jesus. Hopefully, I bring glory to Jesus. I mean, I'm certainly guilty, I'm sure, of things that I've done wrong. But the idea is I get to, the positive, I just get to do this full time.

And I get to study the Bible, I get to study about Jesus, I get to teach people about Jesus, I get to do radio, I get to do the internet, I get to do the website, I get to go travel, I get to do phone interviews, get to do Skype, get to do all kinds of fun and awesome things for the Lord Jesus Christ, to be able to bring glory to Him.

And I just love doing all of it. It's just, it's a wonderful ministry by His grace, get to do it. What did you do before CARM? Wow, before CARM, I was a minister, I was a pastor, I'd been to seminary, graduated with my Master's of Divinity from Westminster Theological Seminary in 1991.

And that was in Escondido, California, and I was a pastor for a while. And because I don't fit the Reform mold in some areas, I'm a Reformed individual who believes in the charismatic gifts, and it just wasn't a good fit.

And so I ended up doing some other things secular-wise for a while, and God used that time to prepare me for the things that I would need to be doing in apologetics. And so it was obvious that God had been preparing me, both educationally, experientially, and technically, in order to do what I do, so that CARM could be a success.

And it's a success. Last year we got 17 million visitors to the site. So it's a success, praise God. What is CARM .org? CARM .org is the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry—let me give a space in there, because an editor might want a space—CARM .org is the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry.

And I didn't know what else to call it back in the day. I could have come up with a better acronym, but that's what we're stuck with. And I didn't think it was going to turn into much, but I didn't. I thought, I'll just put up this website and give people a few answers, and give them the URLs to the answers when they email me in these things called chat rooms back then.

That's all it was. And so it's become a, I don't know, just a huge endeavor. We've been in every country. We've got, like I said, emails from every country. It's just huge. So we cover all kinds of topics, anything secular.

In fact, any topic goes—politics, UFOs, the occult, Mariolatry, Catholicism, Atheism, Agnosticism, any ism and istic we'll address and compare to Scripture.

Darrell Bock. You even have your own dictionary out there.

Gary Barnes. I have my own dictionary, the Slictionary. That's one of the dictionaries you can go there, and you can learn such incredibly great words like blurify, diperinian, to stupefy, and things like that.

There's a whole bunch of terms that I will sometimes use on the radio and in jest when I'm teaching seminars—blurification, you know, and things like that. And I like to use big words, too. I like to say people are obstreperous.

And then when they say, what does that mean? I say, boys, just be recalcitrant. And then they slap their foreheads and go do something more important.

Darrell Bock Why did you start karm .org? Gary Barnes God made me.

The reason I started karm .org was because I wanted to respond to some of the heresies. I very clearly remember getting on this new thing called the Internet. And I didn't know what the Internet was. And there were these things called websites.

And I remember going into some of the stuff on Mormonism, because Mormons got in very quickly. And I'd read some of the stuff that they were saying in bulletin boards and discussion rooms and things like this.

And I'd say, well, that's not right. And so I would offer corrections and quote them. And what's happened was that as I would do that, people started asking me more questions, because I would be able to provide answers.

I'd been doing this long before the Internet came around. I had a lot of information. And so people started asking me more questions. So it just became necessary to develop a common place where I could just say, go here.

Here's a list of questions that I've answered. Not that I get all the answers and everything's perfect all the time. It's just that, well, you know, I've been studying this. So here's what they actually teach.

This is what the answer is to that. And people just started going more and more and more to it. And then it became an issue. And then after a couple of years, I said, man, this is really turning into something.

And my wife and I were talking about the potential of going full-time with it. And it took a while. But I've been full-time with CARM now, I guess, 10 years.

Regrets, Naming the Ministry, and Nicknames

If you were to go back in time, is there anything you would do differently? Marry my wife sooner.

That's one thing I would do. And I would spend less time being stupid, because I was so stupid in my early years that if I could go back and meet myself after I beat myself up a couple of times, knocked some sense into myself, I would do things more quickly.

I'd go get a doctorate degree. I only have a Master's of Divinity, but I'd go get a doctorate and things like that. As far as the ministry goes, would I do things differently? Yeah, I would never have gone 501c3.

I would have just told people this is what it is and just go out and preach and teach as much as I could and just do as much. There's really not a whole bunch of things that I regretted, because when you just go forward and you're making mistakes as you go and you're learning as you go, unless it's a super profound mistake, then you don't have too much to repent of, so to speak.

There's been none of that, just been little ones. But you know what? On the other hand, you learn from these mistakes, and so you're able to become what you are through those. So there's not really too many things that I would really change.

Maybe the name of the ministry may be a little bit differently, but I don't know. It's pretty catchy, CARM. It's better than the acronym for Christian Research and Apologetics People. So that wasn't a good acronym, but we came up with some good stuff, and it's working.

It's easy to say, too, CARM. That's right. And then when the psych goes down, we call it CAR-mageddon. When it goes bad, when things go bad, it's CAR-mageddon. So yeah. And then people who follow CARM, we call them CAR-mites.

And when you're really cool and calm, it's CAR-mello.

So it's good that you don't regret friendships and things like that.

Well, friends don't stay around with me very long. Once they learn who I am, what I do, and how irritating I can be, then they leave, usually. My wife's stuck. She made a vow.

So she's stuck. Right. On to the topic of biblical apologetics. I'm for it. How would you describe biblical apologetics?

Biblical Apologetics and the Use of Scripture in Debate

Biblical apologetics is the presupposition that God's Word is true, and you argue from the position that God's Word is true. The Word of God doesn't defend itself. It just assumes its validity. God doesn't defend Himself.

He just assumes His existence, and the Scriptures are written that way. When you do that, when you just assume the validity of the Word of God and the validity of God's existence and the person and work of Christ, just assume those things and argue from those positions, then what happens is everything falls into place clearly and logically.

Everything makes sense. People say, well, that's circular reasoning. Call it what you want. But if you do this, it works out nicely. Even evidence and rationality fall nicely into place when you have the necessary preconditions of intelligibility being set in the nature of God Himself.

And when you do that, things work great in apologetics. Are debates biblical? Yes. You asked. The answer is yes or no. Are debates biblical? Yes, they are. You can go to Acts chapter 17 where Paul the Apostle debated with the people on Mars Hill.

And Acts 17 .17 talks about the oligomy, dialoguing, going back and forth about these issues. We want to do our debates, so to speak, intelligently. We want to do them in a godly way. And the goal of debates is to shut the mouths of the unbelievers so that God can be glorified in this.

And you never know how God uses debates in order to bring about His will. If He can use a broken vessel like myself, then He can use basically anybody. And He can certainly use debates.

How do you deal with blasphemy in a debate?

Depends what kind of blasphemy it is. There are different levels. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is one thing. And if that ever occurs in a discussion or in a debate, I will stop the debate and say we'll not go on if this continues.

And I've done that before. That doesn't happen very often. And so if they're saying that Jesus did His miracles by the power of the enemy, that's when I say, no, no, we're done here at this point. I will not participate in that.

That's what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is in Matthew 12 .22 -32. But there's different blasphemies that people can say that Jesus, for example, did not rise from the dead or that He's not God in flesh or things like that.

Those are blasphemies, but they're not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. So I can deal with those and I can answer them. And so what I'll do with those latter types is to listen to what the opponent says and then try and correct him with biblical theology and reason, trying to get in and show him that his position just doesn't work.

How do you deal with people using Christ's name in vain or using it as foul language during a debate?

Well, I ask them not to do that. If they're going to use the Lord's name in vain, I say, look, I'm not trying to be offensive to you, but you are being offensive to me. You are being disrespectful. And if you would be so kind as to not use His name in vain, that would be great.

And most people are very cordial about things like that. But when I encounter individuals who are not cordial and then they start immediately using the Lord's name in vain, I say, OK, we're done talking.

Goodbye. And that's it. I'm done that fast. And if they're not going to show some common respect, we don't have any way to really converse. And it also does two things. One, it shows the listeners, the observers, how blasphemous and impolite the opponents can be.

And it also tells them that Matt's got a standard and I don't have any problem with you disagreeing. But if you're just going to be that basically blasphemous in those areas, I'm not going to participate in that.

And I just have a standard. And if you don't like it, then don't debate me. That's all. Move on.

Where does quarrelsome arguing or what does quarrelsome arguing, let me say it again, what does quarrelsome arguing look like as compared to peaceful teaching?

Well, so how would you compare quarreling with a peaceful dialogue? Well, attitude is really a lot of it. I've certainly been guilty of both, certainly made my mistakes. And that happens. But we don't want to be quarrelsome, as 2nd Colossians 4, 5 and 6 says, and I think it's also 2 Timothy 2, 24, roughly 25, that range.

We want to not be quarrelsome. We want to be argumentative and causing unnecessary disdain, hatred and things like that. We do, however, want to bring up the truth. And if the truth offends somebody, then so be it.

We don't want to be offensive. But if the truth by nature offends, then that's just the nature of what the truth is. So the idea, as Colossians 4, 5 and 6 says, is to be gentle, basically, and to be respectful.

And so that's what I try and do. When I debate people, not always am I successful because I'm human, but that's the goal. And most people tell me that I'm very patient with people in debates, a lot more patient than they would be in a lot of situations.

But I try not to be quarrelsome, overly argumentative, overly interrupting. And I try and give them the respect to be able to say what they want to say before I counter them and disagree with them and try and show them from scripture and logic what's going on.

Where do you draw the line between reasoning with an individual and rebuking an individual in apologetics?

Well, the difference between rebuking and reasoning is reasoning is an issue of correction and dialogue. Rebuking is a correction of a blatant error. And so I will rebuke believers as well as unbelievers.

But they're different. If I'm going to rebuke a believer, I'm going to address it with scripture and say, this is what the Bible says. And with respect, you know, you're not familiar with this or you just don't understand what the proper position is.

You need to repent and assume the right position before God. For example, I recently heard about a particular church in a particular place where they have unbelievers come up for communion and it's just a normal, okay, everything is okay, good thing for unbelievers to come up and take communion, which is unbiblical.

So I would gently correct the elders there and the ministry there and say, you should not be doing that and give the reasons why and tell them this is based on scripture. However, correction from an unbeliever is different because they might assume evolution is true.

They might assume that the laws of logic are just these things you find under rocks. They might assume that morals are whatever you want them to be and that society decides what's morally right and wrong.

So then I will correct them using reason, using logic and of course scripture to demonstrate to them that their position is self-refuting cannot work. So the issue of correction inside the body and outside of the body are both necessary, but they take different flavors.

How do you, how should one engage people in a Christlike manner?

A Christlike manner is really interesting because in different contexts, Jesus himself behaved in different ways. So with those who are humble of heart, he was very gentle with those who were the religious leaders who were in error.

He was quite stern. So we could say that from the super gentle to the super strong within Christ, there's a wide variety of interactions that he had with people. He would politely correct, yet he would also weep.

He would call people whitewashed sepulchers, you of your father the devil. And yet at other times he would sit with the children and let them come to him. And so I think the context, if we're going to be Christlike, determines the best methodology, so to speak, or I should say the best approach that we're to give to the person we're dialoguing with.

So if someone is open to hearing about the gospel, gentle. If it's a person being blasphemous, I'm going to be strong. And inside the church, as I said before, that if someone is being, just say deliberately wrong about something, like say women, pastors and elders, which is unbiblical, I will correct them and say, that's not what the Bible says.

You need to come to an alignment with what the scriptures say and stuff like that. And just be strong with them. But, you know, not rude, not condemning, but you need to do this because the Bible says that's the standard.

A lot of people don't like that. And then sometimes we got to address their issues of their attitude. You know, so that's what the Bible says. You've got a problem with that, you know? So unfortunately, one of the fallbacks of being an apologist is that you don this hat of intellectual, moral, scriptural superiority of everybody else.

You're the one who tells everybody what to believe, what they ought to think, how they ought to behave, et cetera, et cetera. That's the attitude that is often perceived by us. We're called watchdogs, you know, heresy hunters and things like that.

But that's not the case. Unfortunately, it often becomes the case in the sense that people will come to us and say, what's this group teach? And the reason they're coming to us is because they've heard bad things about them.

That's the majority of the case. And so we'll point out the error. And so we are perceived as being just merely watchdogs who are looking for heresy at every turn. That's not the case. But one of the fallbacks of this apologetic type ministry is that we can become known for just looking for error and condemning all the time.

That's not the case. When I teach Bible studies, I'm constantly teaching biblical theology and pointing people to Christ and the truth of who he is and then saying, this is a standard. If you encounter something that contradicts that standard, then they are wrong and need to address it.

And unfortunately, what's happening in the church today and in the world today, more and more heresies are creeping into the church because people aren't believing in the word of God and taking it seriously as they should.

And more and more assaults from outside the Christian church are occurring in liberalism, relativism of varying forms and the like. And so it turns out that it's very, very difficult to do all that without being.

Perceived as a heresy hunter. Why should a Christian address challenges to the Christian faith?

We should. Christians should address challenges of the Christian faith because we're told to. And that's in 1 Peter 3, 15. Give an answer to everyone who would ask you. So that's what we're to do. God said to do it.

We're to do it. And God will use our answers according to his sovereign grace, the way he wants to accomplish what he desires. We should be instruments in the hand of God and that God would use us for his glory.

When should a Christian address challenges to the Christian faith?

A Christian should address challenges to the Christian faith whenever it's necessary. And what's necessary? Well, that's between you and God and your situation. Now, if you're at work and you have signed an oath that you will not discuss religion on the site for various reasons, okay, then uphold the oath.

You know, if you're on a bus and someone's asking you a question, talk to them. Sometimes I will be a little bit more aggressive. I don't mean it in a negative way, but if I see some Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, I will go look at them.

I'll go talk to them. I'll go find them. And so, you know, it's a little bit of a subjective answer, depending on the circumstance, your ability, your motives, your reasoning, then you do what you got to do in a different context.

How should a Christian address challenges to the Christian faith?

How should a Christian address challenges? You should do that the way the scripture says to do it. Get with gentleness and reverence in 1 Peter 3 .15, making the most of the opportunity, Colossians 4, 5, and 6.

We're to try and be respectful. We're to try and be gentle, but we're also, we should try and be truthful. And do not sacrifice truth for the sake of the feelings of somebody else. We don't want to be rude.

We don't want to be mean, but we want to portray the truth. If the truth offends them, then so be it. That's the nature of truth. Truth doesn't care about your feelings. Truth is what it is. And we need to present truth in a loving, patient, kind way, best of our abilities, but let truth stand.

And Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. We need to uplift him, John 14, 6.

Encouragement to Trust God and Keep Producing Good Content

Last question, what encouragement can you give to fellow Christians?

Well, the encouragement I can give to fellow Christians is real simple. Trust and go. Trust Jesus, move forward. Don't worry about what you're going to say. You're going to mess up. I have messed up basically every single encounter I've ever had.

There's always a better way to do it. There's always a better thing to say. But God in his great sovereignty uses our words, uses our failures, our inabilities, and he's not limited by us. But if you just ask God to use you as you are and to be sent out by him and to be used and you're ready, that's just trusting him.

Then go. Don't worry about where you go. Don't worry about what situation you find yourself in. Just trust him and go. You'll mess up, but you'll also do some great things and God will receive the glory.

Don't worry about having perfect answers. Just answer the best you can. If you don't know, you don't know. Go learn and come back and try and give an answer. That's what it means for the Christian. That's how you grow in your faith.

Thank you very much for your time, Matt. All right.

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Click on the radio listeners and use promo code S F E. That stands for striving for eternity. Or you can call 1 -800 -873 -0176. That's 1 -800 -873 -0176 and use promo code S F E. All right. Well, I hope that you guys enjoyed that interview per se.

Left it with the raw file instead of cleaning it up. So you got to enjoy some of the, just some of the jokes we did in the beginning there, the humor that we have back and forth, but I hope it also helped you understand a little about karm .org.

It is a ministry I am very fond of. I used to be on the board of directors there. So, um, therefore I'm obviously very fond of it, but it is very helpful for many Christians. I actually argue that karm .org has, uh, trained more pastors than most seminaries because every seminary and everyone that goes to seminary seems to go to karm .org to get all their information.

And so that's where most people get their information that they write their seminary papers for. And it's just amazing to think what God could do with one person. And so I want to encourage you. May you be the next person that God uses the way that God used Matt Slick.

May you be the person who just decides, Hey, let me research and answer some questions and just to make it easier, I'll put that online for others. And 25, 26 years later, maybe you'll be having millions of people coming to your website to check out the answers you have.