Season 2 Episode 2 - Free Will?

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Are we recording yet? No, but we are now, you punk. All right, we got it. That was a get me another.
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No, that wasn't a gulp, that was one sip. He saw. I saw the end of what
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I would have assumed was a full gulp. Our audiovisual team is of three, what do you mean 17?
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Nobody knows that. 17 people over there, this is. I feel like it's a question of angles.
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Like, your chin, if it's this far up, that's a gulp. If it's like right here, that's a sip.
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I saw the aftermath of Pastor Josiah taking what I would have defined a gulp, because he said.
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All I got to say is that it depends on what chin. If it's this chin or if it's the double chin, you're not being recorded.
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I would make comments about how flat the next beverage was, but I'm not going to because I was grateful that you gave me any at all.
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Thank you. You're welcome. Then again, back in the room, back in the room at Point Taken Podcast, this is the
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Point Taken Podcast, the podcast where we make and take spiritual and biblical questions and shout them out.
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Guys, my name is Hunter. I'm the host of this podcast to my left. The Immaculate, the...
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Oh. Immaculate? Would you prefer scrumptious?
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Okay. All right. Pastor Josiah Shipley. Hello, everybody. There he is.
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Pastor Josiah, I got a question for you. Is this a repeat thing? Apparently, yes.
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Are you happy to be here? I am happy to be here, my brother, Andrew. I'm ready. Can I...
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Do I have permission not to introduce Andrew? You are the host. You have permission to do almost whatever you want.
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And to my right, guys, as always, Finnegan. That was a true statement.
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It was a true statement. Finnegan, he's the man. He's the man with the plan. That's our guy.
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Finnegan is obviously wearing our Point Taken apparel. I have no pants. And you didn't have to bring it up, but yeah,
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Finnegan doesn't wear pants. It is part of his whole style. And, oh, Pastor Josiah is also the perfect model, maybe one step below our model,
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Finnegan, for our apparel. Finnegan will be at church next week, by the way, everybody. He will be at church next week.
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Everybody will finally be able to... Well, we might need to get him pants if he's going to be at church next week. Yeah, I think so. He doesn't need pants. I was like, you know, come as you are, but not without pants.
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Just as I am. Without one pant. Please.
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There we go. Now, to introduce myself, since the host decided not to. Welcome, Shoulder, everybody.
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Nice. To the Point Taken podcast. My name is Andrew Cook. And today...
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See, I just stole it, bro. I just took it. Well, here's the thing. I had the choice. And I took the choice. Whoa. That's...
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You see? We teed it up. Knocked it down. Guys, free will.
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Do you have a choice? Like this video. Do you even have a choice?
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Like this video. Comment on this video. Share this video. That was good.
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That one was good. You got a choice in anything that you do. You got a choice in anything that you say.
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Anything that you think and feel. Automaton? Automatron? No? I'm going to pass it off to Pastor Josiah just to open up with a little prerequisite here.
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Yeah. For those of you new to the podcast, we take and take.
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We make and take biblical and spiritual truths and chat it up. Yeah. Many of those are, to the world, controversial.
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But to the Christian worldview, are pretty standard. Last week, we talked about abortion. And in all orthodoxy of Christianity, in all true believers, there's normally not too much debate about is it okay to murder
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God's creation. When we talk about things like worldviews, when we talk about things like what is the
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Bible, when we talk about things, gender roles, a lot of these things are so clearly defined in the
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Bible that we can debate on minor details of them. But the crux of it, we're all pretty much on the same page here.
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We call those distinctions doctrinal differences or theological differences. We three at this table can have different theological differences all day long because theology means the study of God.
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Since we as humans are the ones doing the studying, we can and will err. Right. Doctrine is a teaching found in the
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Word of God from Genesis to Revelation. Since God is the one doing the teaching, it will never err.
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You see that? Doctrine is a teaching. God is the teacher. It will always be right. Grace, heaven, hell, these are not debatable topics.
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Jesus and the apostles and the prophets spoke about them. Unless you're a progressive. Yeah. Those are doctrinal differences that we have with them.
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Those are things worth drawing a line in the sand over. Yeah. Theological differences, for example, for example,
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Genesis chapter 6, the Nephilim were all of those giants.
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That's the only one that I think I've ever, you and I have ever had a conversation and just disagreed on.
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And that's a perfect example. When Hunter dies and meets the
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Lord. Right? Hunter will realize he was wrong. That's what
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I was waiting for. He won't even be sad about it. It's going to be okay. You know, well, we can have theological differences and I'm willing to wait for them to come around on those.
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But, of course, I'm being facetious. The point being is we can still be in fellowship over those type things.
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Yeah. Today is an in -house debate, an in -house debate on a theological difference that I'm not going to say it doesn't matter, but it doesn't eternally matter.
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And as Paul would put it, it is not one of those things of first importance. That's what he says in 1
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Corinthians 15. So we're going to debate about this. And I am happy to be on any and all sides of this because there is biblical precedent to not swing the pendulum too far on either side.
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There is a biblical precedent. Okay? Yeah. The reason why Christians have debated these things for millennia is because there's biblical precedent on either side depending on how we define those terms.
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Okay? Yeah. So one last prerequisite here and then we can have fun. When we define our terms, the title of this video will be determinism verse free will or something like that.
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It'll figure it out. Yeah. On either side, we're not saying, for example, free will is in – we'll get into this,
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I'm sure. That, for example, that means you're not a slave of Jesus when you willingly submit or you weren't a slave to sin.
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We'll get to that. We're also in determinism, light years of difference from, say, an atheistic worldview of chemical reactions in the brain that are faded.
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Right. That is not what any Christian means by determinism. So once we get those out of the way, we are just talking theological differences.
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These are not things that kick anyone out of the kingdom or bring them into the kingdom. That's all
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I wanted to say. And so when we're talking about this, a lot of things that the
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Christians are going to find important – this is why I like everybody's debates this pretty heavily. There are two – this is how
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I view it at least. There are two big things that the Christians care about. How does salvation happen?
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And am I free to make my own choices? Those are the big things about free will, free choice, predestination, determinism.
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How does that fit in those two areas? How do you marry God's providence and my choice?
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Do I have a choice if God knows all and what you plan for evil,
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I plan for good? A big question. How does the Bible come to be without God literally stringing things along?
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You know what I'm saying? So let's first – we've got to attack the question, what is free will, first of all?
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Because that's the biggest – you can't oversight that. This is where we get technical.
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Free will is different, in my opinion, from free choice. So to will something into being is impossible for anybody but God.
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So God has will. We may or may not have choice.
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So that's why I say, do you have free will? Like, I know what you mean, so yeah, but no.
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I have free choice. I think that's the first thing we've got to make sure.
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Yeah, y 'all are going to have to keep me in check. This is an area – this is going to sound arrogant. I don't want it to be at all.
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That I have thought deeply about for a very long time, so I could easily commandeer this without trying to. So y 'all got to keep me in check here.
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I would agree with that. I think one of the biggest problems we have – thank you, Dana Sneed, shout out – we have is that we don't properly define our terms.
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And I think what Hunter just did was successfully do that for us. So let's just tackle that term free will, and let me just start here.
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That term does not appear in the Bible. Now, someone is going to look up in their
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Bible free will. They're going to get rid of the space in the middle and look up the term free will offering, but I mean the term free will.
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Now, for you determinists out there, and I know that you're going to define yourself as Calvinist or Augustinian or Reformed or whatever, but that's not what we're talking about right now specifically.
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Careful, because there's a lot of things that I believe that are not directly found in the Bible, like the word triune or trinity.
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But it's on almost every other page. So simply saying those words don't appear in the
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Bible is not enough. Huckleberry Finn is about racism. The word racism does not appear in the book.
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The word itself not being in there is not enough. There's number one.
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Number two, John and Jesus make clear that you either are a slave to sin or a slave to Jesus.
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Those are the two options John, Jesus, God presents. So when we say free will, we got to be careful, and this is what
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I was getting at earlier, that we don't mean, and Christian, if you have been lulled to sleep by this, wake up. You should not mean by that term that we are completely morally, ethically neutral and born that way.
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The Bible says the exact opposite, that we were born in sin.
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So most of the time, now there are some goofballs out there, that is not what a Christian is trying to convey when they say the term free will.
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So maybe free choice is a better term as Hunter was getting at. Andrew, go ahead. What am
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I asking? What are we answering the question? We're defining the terms, right, Brother Hunter? Yes, sir. You all defined it.
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So what do you want from me? I guess my point would be, my point would be, a will that is enslaved to sin is not free.
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But to Hunter's point, the moment Paul switches from talking about, in Romans, global and total condemnation, in Romans 3, there is no one seeking
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God. To talking to converted people, he switches from you are dead to and I beg you.
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Now, if you're begging someone, that means they have a choice between at least two things.
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Otherwise, there's nothing to beg about. Right. So there has to be a difference in the will of a born -again believer and a not -born -again believer.
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Here's how I want to preface my argument. You're not born, and this is my philosophy, my opinion.
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When you are born, it's not like those games where you get to choose whether or not to be on the hero side or the bad side.
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Yeah, and it's not like you have a little meter, a good meter, or whatever.
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This isn't Knights of the Old Republic. That's right. You can't just choose, yeah,
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I'm going to be sinless or I'm going to do that. That much we know. When we are born, we're selfish.
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When we are conceived, it is through the seed of a man, and his Adamic sin is a part of us.
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That's why Jesus had to be born of a virgin. So this is how
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I think about it. When it comes to having choice, I believe we have a choice. I believe that, and this is, again, people will disagree with me on this.
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Because they were determined to or because it was their choice? I just had to say that in the one time for the audience who was thinking it.
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I believe that I'm not controlled in my emotion.
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My mind is not wired to think a certain way. It is not, I can choose to do this,
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I can choose to do that. But, but, this is how
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I consider life. Life is kind of like you're playing by the rules of a game.
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So in other words, I do not trade monopoly money when I play the game of sorry. You see what
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I'm saying? Like, I'm not mixing that. So when I see the world and I see creation and I look at God, I'm thinking
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God is the creator. And of course, when we're talking about free will, free choice, determination, all that stuff, we're doing it from the
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Christian standpoint. So we're doing it from the idea that God exists and he made the world and all that.
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So God made the world. He made all the rules of it. He is the maker of logic.
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He created logic. He created if, then. Action, consequence, all of that.
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So what I think a lot of people don't understand is that when a non -Christian is arguing with a
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Christian and they're getting confused, well, remember, we're playing by the rules. I believe that this world has a set of rules.
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This is why this is a sin. This is why this cannot work, it does work.
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This is why eternity is in our hearts. This is why we long for a creator. Because when
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God said, let there be, and God put the rules and the laws into motion, he made the rules of the game.
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And so the rules of it, in that sense, no, I don't believe you have a choice. Because if you exist in his world, you exist in his world.
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It's kind of like my house, you live under my roof, you live by my rules. It's kind of like that.
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In the sense that I can still be rebellious to my parents in my house, but, you know,
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I'm still living within those four walls. I'm still, you know, I'm not actually in Russia when
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I go home. I have to be in that house if I live in that house. The same way, if I live on planet Earth, then
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I live under the rule of God. And so there are a lot of things that I don't get to choose.
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Like being born sinful. Is that? Yeah, I'm with you so far.
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Yeah, so when it comes to choice and free choice, my opinion on, let's just start with the little stuff.
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You know, when I go to make a sandwich for lunch, I don't think that anybody but me makes that decision.
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What do you think? I'm with you so far. Do you have any opinions on this, man?
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Last episode, you called yourself a determinist, man. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. I'm waiting,
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I'm listening to your argument. Oh, okay, so you're waiting for me to be done? Mm -hmm. Okay, well. Yeah, you finish, he'll jump in, and then we'll go like this, bro.
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Okay, we'll go like this. Oh, so we're going to, our whole, okay, my whole opinion. Let's go, bro.
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Let's go, let's go ahead. I don't want to say anything and then be like, well, actually, I don't want that. I want to hear everything you have to say first.
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And then he will tear it apart. No, not even that. Just I want to hear everything first.
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Okay, so. What does it say? You need to hear both. You have one side of the argument sounds good until you hear the other side.
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So I don't, I try my best. Whenever someone says something like that, I want to say Proverbs of James.
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I know it's one of the two, but they're so similar, it's hard to. All right, go ahead, go ahead. Right. Continue. So when it comes to stuff like that, nobody's making that choice but me.
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But let's read in Ephesians 2. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, this is starting in verse 1, in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient.
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We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thought.
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And we were by nature children under wrath and others were also. Right. And then it goes into, but God, who is rich in mercy, because it was a great love that he had for us made us alive.
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Right. So through that, I'm seeing, that's the rules of the game.
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Like that is your prerequisite. You are born, you are already a slave. Like you can be free, quote unquote, but when it speaks in James chapters 4 and 5, about God's statutes not being a burden, and these people will preach to you, like come and be free, like, man, you go to church.
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You had got to live by those rules. Like that really sucks. Like, well, see, you're also living by rules.
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That's what you're not understanding. Right. Like you are already living by the rules of the game right here.
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You are a slave to your flesh, like, and your desire, like, and you really do think that's freeing.
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I understand why, because you're doing what you want, but what you want is what is chaining you.
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Like think a little bit outside of that. So to an extent, no, we don't make our own choices in that way, but we do make our individual choices.
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Like I can choose to quit my job and go to Arkansas in a week.
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You know, I'm free to do that, you know, and nobody is pulling my string or pushing my button to do that.
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I think three people have ever said that sentence, I'm going to quit and move to Arkansas. But, yes, you could.
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Right. I'm done. I rest my time. You rest your time.
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Okay. All right. So as I stated before, I am a determinist, and I probably may have spoken out of turn.
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I don't know, but I'm just going to go with what I have seen, what I have studied in Scripture. So I want to preface it by saying that God can do whatever he wants to do.
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Yes, okay. He is free to do whatever. To use the analogy of the board game, he's the one who made the board game, and thus he determines where the pieces fall.
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He literally made the roadmap of how the pieces should go down the road. So when it comes to salvation,
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I do believe that it is predetermined, predestined.
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I think that there are those that will and there are those that won't, and God knows exactly who all of them are and how their lives are going to play out.
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In fact, when Jesus says that depart me from you workers of iniquity for I never knew you, when he quotes that or when he says that, we quote it now, he knows who they are.
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And he's talking to the Pharisees obviously, but at the same time, in this modern day and age, we can kind of see it too, like, oh, well, you don't speak truth.
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You don't speak with God. You would never even read a Bible during your sermons. But so salvationally – what's it?
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Not eschatology. Soteriology. Soteriolically.
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Yeah, there you go. Just add ickly. Ickly at the end of it. It's fine. I believe that God has predestined and predetermined who is, who isn't.
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As for the choice to make a sandwich, I don't – the way that I am an automaton kind of believer person,
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I think that everybody's daily choice has been predetermined. I don't –
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I wouldn't say I'm that far into determinism as much as it's – there is an ultimate goal where they're going to end up.
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I don't believe in Molinism. So for anybody that doesn't – there was a debate between Pastor James White and Dr.
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William Craig. William Craig is a Molinist and Dr. White is a Reformed theologian.
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Anyway, the way that Molinism was described in that video was God knows what choice you will make under the right circumstances.
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Okay. And then determinism would say that he knows exactly what you're going to do and here's what – this is how it's going to work.
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I don't – Molinism is – it seems like an off -brand of determinism.
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I know what decision you'll make if I put you in the right situation. So I'm going to put you in the right situation to make you make that decision.
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Wasn't that the same thing as saying I know what you're going to decide and I'm going to make you do it? So anyway.
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But it does kind of limit God in the same way. What, Molinism or determinism?
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Yeah. Yeah, it limits – yeah. I mean it technically doesn't but it also technically does. And see that's where the whole like – when it talks about God changing his mind in the
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Old Testament, I don't – I mean obviously it's there that the terminology is there but I don't think it means the same thing.
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Oh, he was persuaded. No, he wasn't. Right. Oh, he was moved to – he wasn't moved to anything.
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God already had a – God had already determined what was going to happen and said, all right, this is what's going to happen but I'm going to give by example he's going to do this and that's going to get all the other
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Israelites. I don't know where exactly that was but it's going to be an example for everyone around him.
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Jonah is a good example. Jonah, God said go to Nineveh and take care of it.
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Okay. Ran the other direction. God is like, okay, cool. You're going to get on that boat. He got on the boat.
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He's going to get thrown overboard. A giant fish is going to swallow him. Cool. I know exactly what's going to happen to him.
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And what even Jonah was like at the end. He said, oh, I know exactly why this is happening with all the ship and the sailors are losing their minds.
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Like we've got to pray to every God we can think of. And he's like, hey, I know exactly what the problem is. I know it's
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God. I know what Jonah did. And they're like, oh, really? And they throw him overboard. God is like, cool.
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They didn't want to. They didn't want to? Yeah, which is interesting. I just thought
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I'd throw that in there. They were worried about it. He's like, no, it's good. Throw me overboard. Oh, I missed that.
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Yeah, they were cool dudes. Like I read through Jonah again like later on. And I was just like, because I always thought, oh, this is the dude.
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Actually, you're right because the unbelievers acted more honorable than the believers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that.
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So anyway. Which happens today sometimes too, by the way. Which would, I feel like, bolster the argument of Terminism because they were more honorable.
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They followed the law of their heart, which is what God put on them anyways. So they did
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God's will regardless. Yeah, Jonah, man, that's a hard one because you have to think about, because that is a great argument for what you're trying to say.
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Because Jonah was perfectly free to get on that boat to Tarshish. Tarshish? Tarshish.
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Or however you say it. And he was totally free to do that, and yet he was not free to get there.
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Like, hey, you have a choice whether or not to rebel or to obey. But you're going to end up doing it.
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Like, you're going to end up obeying. And so the question that I think to myself is, am
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I? You know, it's like, is that for everybody or just for him? Like, is that the rule?
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Is that a story? Basically, him showing us, like, you go your own path, but it's going to lead to the place
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I tell you. Like, is that for everyone or is that this is the story of Jonah and this is what
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I'm doing with Jonah specifically? That's a good question. So I can think of a story.
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I just want to address that real quick. Oh, sorry. And this is for any new listener or.
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The account. The account. And these are not stories. These are not fairy tales. These are not
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Grimm's fairy tales. These are actual historical events that happened. So not chastising.
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I know. Yeah, I know. I went to a high school, a quote -unquote Christian high school who taught there wasn't actually a global flood, that Adam and Eve were not historical figures, all that stuff.
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I'm just dramatic. Sometimes I say this is the story of Hunter all the time. I do that all the time. The problem is it is a story.
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It's just a real one, and we use the term. And you do that when you say this. I said this is my story. Oh, how are many?
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OK, my turn. Yes. Yeah, for sure. So I think one of the things we've got to do is embrace a level of humility.
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And here's what I mean by that. I mean that in a few ways. I can think of a few people.
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Andrew said a couple of words earlier. He said predestined. And I remember speaking to someone years ago, not at this church, who someone said that word, and this person rolled their eyes.
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What word? Predestined. Oh, OK, cool. And I pulled that person aside and I said, what's wrong with that?
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And they said, well, I just don't believe that. I don't like that word at all. Ain't nobody telling me. I said, OK. By the way, the person who was reading was reading
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Ephesians chapter one. You're rolling your eyes at God's word. That's a word that's in the Bible. Well, I don't agree with it.
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Well, you cannot agree with it all you want. It's in the Bible. Right. Right. And so whenever people and I understand why you may say, well, people misuse that.
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And I get all that. The problem is the question is not. Is not.
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Does God sovereignly bring things to pass or does man's choices have effects?
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That is not the question. The question is the answer to that is both are yes. So the question is, to what extent?
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Yes. In other words, the Bible teaches that man's choices have consequences. Absolutely.
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That's what the Bible teaches. If my people do X, Y will happen. If my people do Z, A will happen.
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That's what the Bible says. All of the Old Testament. To what extent? I have set before you life and death.
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Choose life and live. Why will you die over the house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but they would repent and turn from the way.
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So if my people choose you in this day, whom you will serve and all the other stuff. The question is not do our choices have consequences.
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The question is not does God sovereignly bring things to pass. The question is what does that look like and how do those harmonize?
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To what extent on each side? That, I think, frames the question a lot better. So, Psalm 115 .3.
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Our God is in heaven and does whatever he pleases. I am unwilling to make the word whatever mean anything other than whatever.
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I am also unwilling to make Acts 27 where it says,
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Acts 17. He calls all men everywhere to repent. I have read and heard the arguments that all men doesn't mean all men.
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It means all types of people. I can't buy that. It says all men. I need the word all to be the word all when it's the word all.
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I need the word whatever to be. And you can't pick and choose on when it means which one. So the question is what does that look like?
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Because what all three of us will agree on is that God's word is inerrant. Yes. Okay. And that whenever it appears to not be to me, it is my failure to understand, not
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God's fault for writing it that way. So like one of the examples Andrew brought up earlier, there's a few times in the
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Old Testament where it says something like this. It says, And God repented that he had ever created man. Or God regretted that he had made
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Saul king. There's a few of them like that. The one about Saul is really cool because at the end of that chapter, and by the way,
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I don't know this because I was in doubt. I know this because I had the same question and wanted to figure it out. Okay.
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That chapter ends by saying this. So the beginning part of that chapter in the middle says, And Yahweh regretted or repented that he had made
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Saul king. Okay. This would be in 1 Samuel. Yeah, you're right. The end of that chapter says,
30:52
For the Lord does not regret like man regrets. Right. So the question is, What does that mean that God regretted?
31:00
The best analogy, because remember God is the one who brought that to pass. God is the one who chose
31:06
Saul. Well, the people chose Saul because he was a head taller and all that stuff, but God brought that to pass. He said,
31:11
If you all really want a king, okay, but if you do, this is going to happen, and then you're going to – that's what's going to happen. I was about to say, yeah.
31:17
He laid it out. It's like this is exactly what you're going to kind of have to go through in order to get this king.
31:22
Now, here's what I want you all to wrap your heads around. So most of us want to leave it there.
31:28
See, God didn't want a king, but they chose a king. The problem with that is that God promised from before the ages began that Jesus would come from the line of King David.
31:37
Right. So God had always planned there would be a monarchy in Israel. You follow my logic here, guys? God had always planned for there to be a monarchy in Israel.
31:45
So the question, guys, don't be so simplistic of, well, that was their choice, not
31:51
God's, or what does that look like? The best analogy
31:56
I've ever heard for this, okay, and when I start talking too much, just tap me or say shut up. I'm going to give an analogy
32:03
I heard from a prominent theologian, and then I'm going to give a biblical example of what I think that would look like. Okay.
32:08
Okay? And then I think I'm good here. This is not my original, but I'm going to change it to be my original.
32:18
Let's pretend I was more holy than I am and more sanctified than I am right now and more obedient to God than I am right now.
32:29
Let's say Ava, when she turns 15, my daughter, does something really bad, and I discipline her for it.
32:39
And the result of that discipline is that she leaves, and I never see her again. I don't hear from her.
32:45
I don't know where she goes. I don't know what happens to her. I don't know where on planet Earth she is.
32:50
I never, ever, ever see my daughter again. Let's pretend that Elon Musk really does build a time machine.
32:59
Okay? I understand. Just let's pretend, okay? Not Flashpoint, CW crap.
33:05
I mean, actually, yeah, okay. We could, but we're not going to. All right.
33:11
Okay. And I go back in time to that moment, and I haven't seen my daughter in 30 years.
33:18
I go back in time to that moment. Now, I know that if I discipline her, and let's pretend
33:25
I was righteous in disciplining her. Let's pretend I did what the Bible says, okay? And I don't think
33:32
I know with 100 % certainty that the results of me disciplining her will be
33:38
I never see her again. So in that sense, I would be bringing that to pass, at least in that sense.
33:44
I understand, yeah, her choice has a consequence of leaving, but I am the one who is now in control of that choice.
33:51
I have total control over what's going to happen in that sense. Y 'all following me so far?
33:57
Right. Assuming I was as obedient as I would hope
34:03
I would be, I would still discipline her again because it was the right thing to do.
34:10
Knowing the result, I think I would, I would discipline her because that's the right thing to do, okay?
34:19
And I would regret that I did that, but if I did it over again,
34:26
I would do it again and again. So if I am capable of regretting something that I brought to pass, then
34:34
God can have an emotion, even one that sounds like a human emotion, anger, regret, sadness, remorse, happiness, joy, regret something that I brought to pass, okay?
34:51
Y 'all following me on that? A biblical example of that, of how
34:56
I think of it when we talk about these things, is in Acts 27, that's what I was trying to say earlier. Alright, so Paul is on a ship, he is imprisoned, but he appealed to Caesar and he's on his way to Rome, okay?
35:12
Right. The ship has like 153 dudes on it, okay? And they're going to Rome and there's a terrible storm, and it looks like they're about to all crash and die.
35:25
It's nighttime and an angel of God tells
35:31
Paul, not one human being is going to die tonight. All 153 of you are going to live through this storm.
35:39
Now if God says that, how many people are going to die? None. Zero. In the middle of the night, some of the soldiers try to get on the little lifeboats on the sides of the ship and cut the ropes and get in the water.
35:53
Paul looks at the captain and says, if they get in those little boats, they are going to die. Now, listen to that again.
36:01
God said no one will die. Paul said if they get in those boats, they will die.
36:07
I don't believe that's a contradiction, because guess what? If they got in those boats, they really would die. Because when
36:13
God predestines something like the cross, He doesn't just predestine that it happens. He predestines how it will happen.
36:20
So in the example of the cross, Herod, Pilate, the Jews, the Gentiles, okay? God used
36:25
Paul to warn them so they would not get in those boats. If they had, they would have died, but no one died because God told
36:30
Paul to tell them to not get in those boats and use that fear to keep them. So in other words, if you can keep it with me here,
36:39
God brought that to pass. God said no one will die. But instead of living in some fatalistic world where, okay, well that means
36:46
I'm a Christian so I can do whatever I want, you're missing the point, because God also brings about the means. Right.
36:52
So, it's not just that God said no one will die. No one died because God told
36:57
Paul, if they get in those boats, they would die. And if they had gotten in those boats, they really would have died.
37:04
But they were never going to get in those boats because God told Paul to warn them because God said no one will die.
37:10
Yeah. That's what I mean when I try to say to what extent. So, I can look at Andrew and say,
37:19
God brought that to pass. He ordained that no one would die. He ordained that no one would die.
37:26
So guess how many people were going to die? Zero. But not in some mystical bubble, but in real natural consequences of choices that he has brought to pass and has means of how those really brought to pass.
37:42
And that's the big question is did he use his foresight and his foreknowledge and just say, yeah, these people aren't going to end up getting off the boat.
37:51
They're good. Hey, nobody's going to die. But because of the actions of this person.
37:57
Right. Or did he say these kids will choose not to get off the boat, either
38:03
A, because I'm going to tell Paul to say that, or B, because I'm just not going to let him make that decision.
38:10
I'll give you an example of whether God has stepped in. Like that's stepping in. He said, all right. He sent an angel and said no one on this boat is going to die.
38:19
So then Paul's like, okay, in order for that to happen, no, everyone has to stay on this boat. Right.
38:24
So God stepped in and said, here you go. Don't. But he didn't say, he did not say tell them they cannot get off the boat.
38:34
He just said no one on this boat is going to die. And Paul, being a wise man, went, okay, everyone on this boat has to stay on this boat.
38:43
So we can at the same time say if they did not stay on the boat, they really honestly and truly would have died.
38:49
Like their choices have consequences. But they were never going to get off the boat. Right.
38:55
That's what's so amazing. Everything that has happened was always going to happen. Not in a, and has always happened.
39:05
So basically every choice that you make. So let's say when I was 40 years and when
39:11
I'm 40 years old, when I was 40 years old, when I'm 40 years old, I walk out of my house on an icy day and I slip and I fall.
39:21
And I, you know, tear my ACL. That was always going to happen because it happened.
39:30
Right. Like in my mind now as a 24 year old, I can think I can choose to salt my porch the night before.
39:39
Or to stay in bed a little longer and maybe I'll have sure footing next time.
39:44
You know, whatever. But everything that will happen was always going to happen because something has to happen because only one thing can happen.
39:54
So in other words. Like it was determined. No, just try and stay with me here because think of this.
40:01
Every happenstance, every action, every what I call happening that happens.
40:09
Oh no, not the happening. Yeah. I don't remember what that is. I smell the trees.
40:17
Everything that does or is or happens. There's only one thing that can happen.
40:25
So in other words, if I have a choice, I can choose to tap this pen on Josiah's thumb, his index, his middle, his ring or his pinky or his palm.
40:36
I could do any of that. But when I throw this pen down on that index, that was always going to happen because that's what happened.
40:45
Not because God said you're going to choose the index. It's because that happenstance that happened was always going to happen because something had to happen.
41:01
Okay. Then God wasn't sovereign over that moment. No. See, that's where my brain went.
41:10
Okay, so happenstance, happenstance, happenstance. All right, so. That was cool.
41:21
So that happened outside of God's will. No. Okay. But if I had not done that, would that have been in God's will?
41:29
But did God do that? Did God do that? I can say that was always going to happen.
41:34
Okay. From the moment God said, let there be, you were going to flop that arm onto the table and there was going to be reverb and you were going to say, oh, that was cool.
41:43
That was always going to happen. But nobody ever ordained you to do that. Except for when
41:49
God determined that it was going to happen. But it's within God's will. Everything that happens was always going to happen.
41:55
But I don't have to say that in the sense that God set it in motion and said, this is what's going to be, it will, every single choice.
42:02
But I can still say everything that has happened or will happen was and is always going to happen.
42:09
And I don't necessarily mean that means that God willed every single one of those things. I think that he does will certain things.
42:17
As in, let there be, you know, and many more. Yeah. I see where you're coming from.
42:24
Yeah. When I say everything that has happened or will happen was always going to happen because anything that happens has to happen and only one thing can happen.
42:33
I mean, not necessarily does God have to say, you know,
42:40
Hunter will take this pen out of its cap and put it back in. You know, and he knew that was going to happen before he said, let there be.
42:48
But that doesn't mean that he did that. He made me do that. Pastor Si is biting.
42:54
He's ready. No, go ahead. No. Okay. So then I have a question. As cool as the idea is, is there is no such thing as multiverse.
43:05
Right. Because the multiverse theory would say that for every action, there is an infinite number of.
43:11
For every choice. For every choice you make, there is an infinite number of. A version of you. Alternate realities where you would.
43:18
With God, that doesn't exist. Right. Because he's determined everything. Oh, that would be super cool. That would be really interesting.
43:25
Could you imagine? Okay. All right. Well, then here's my going back to the whole example from Max.
43:35
You said if they got off that boat, they would die. Yes. Paul said they would.
43:41
Those words are recorded in scripture. But God said no one would. Exactly. That's my point. Right. My thought process.
43:47
And this is just me thinking. This is my opinion. God said it would not happen.
43:54
So even if Paul had not stepped in, no one would have died. There it is.
44:00
Wait for it. God said that knowing that Paul would say that. And he.
44:09
I mean, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I'm also pointing out that if I know.
44:16
Let's say this. I'm trying to make this in my head.
44:25
Okay. Your water's out. You have no water at the house.
44:30
Okay. Okay. You have one bathroom in your house. Okay. You are in the car with your kids.
44:37
Your wife is also on the way home in another car. Your wife has told you that she needs to go pee. Okay. The kids.
44:44
You can tell the kids. Your wife is going to get there before all y 'all. You can tell your kids when you get to the house.
44:52
You will not be able to use the bathroom. There will be no more water left. Because that one last flush is going to be done.
44:59
You can say that and it'd be true. I failed this.
45:07
I'm sorry. I'm trying. He knows. He knew that he was going to say that. Right.
45:13
Right. I get that part. He had that outside. He had that information. Right. So my point was being is exactly what he's trying to get at.
45:23
What you said. I feel like if Paul had told them that. Then there is no if Paul had not told them that.
45:29
Because that was part of God's plan. In other words. God. God has a plan
45:35
A. There is no plan B. We all understand that. There is no plan B. God has never been like. What do we do now?
45:41
When Adam and Eve ate the fruit. We all understand this. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit. God didn't say. Oh, I didn't see that one coming.
45:48
The Bible says Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. That would include before Adam and Eve ate that stupid fruit.
45:54
So my point is. Acts 4. 26 and 27. For in this city. Herod.
45:59
Pilate. The Jews and the Gentiles. Might as well call them the Romans here. Herod. Pilate.
46:06
The Jews and the Gentiles. Came together against your anointed one. To do whatever your hand and your plan has predestined to take place.
46:17
Let me read that again. For in this city. He's quoting. Sorry. For in this city.
46:22
That was impressive. Both Herod and Pilate. The Jews and the Gentiles. Let's just take those four groups of people.
46:28
Herod. Did he do anything sinful that night? I would say yes. Pilate. Yeah. Having a.
46:36
He's kind of neutral. He's like. Well. He was a coward. Yeah. He had the power to do what was right. And to him.
46:41
Who knows what to do is right. And does not do it to him. It is. The Jews. Crucify him. Crucify.
46:46
Yeah. Okay. We're good. Right. The Romans. I don't think they did anything wrong. Okay. The Romans. The Romans.
46:53
Do we even need to. Right. Okay. They came together. They came together.
46:58
Doesn't say they were moved. They came together of their own accord. Against your
47:03
Messiah. To do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
47:10
So. In other words. When someone says. Well. What if. Pilate.
47:15
Had free Jesus. Would Jesus have still been coming? I don't believe there's such a thing as. There isn't.
47:21
Such a thing as. What if. Pilate. Had. Right. Right. In Pilate's mind.
47:26
There was. Because. Pilate. Is not omniscient. In the Jews. Mind. And.
47:32
They're not omniscient. So. Of course. There is a. What if. But in the reality of God's plan.
47:37
A. There's no such thing as the words. What if. There's no such thing as the words. What if.
47:42
Babylon. Had not conquered. Jerusalem. In 586. BC. There's no such thing as. What if. Goliath.
47:47
Had killed David. There's no such thing as. What if. There is no multiverse.
47:53
There is no. Dr. Strains. I see. Fourteen million. Two hundred and thirty eight thousand ways. In which. He wins.
47:59
And one. Yeah. God could have. Made sure. Nobody died. By not. Making a storm.
48:06
Oh. Exactly. Right. Just like. And. And. I think that's the big point here. Is that. God. He said.
48:12
Nobody's going to die. And that could have come about. Because there was never. A danger. Like. He could have just said.
48:18
No storm. But he chose. Send an angel. Let him know.
48:24
Everybody's going to be. Chill. And. Because. Of that. I know that. He's going to say.
48:30
Don't get off this boat. And that's. A way to do it. And it also. Let's.
48:35
Everybody else know. When this is documented. Forever. In. The word of God. That.
48:42
You know. We can sit down here. At this table. And have a conversation about it. And I think.
48:47
So. Just to. And I don't disagree. I think. I think that's fair. That's a fair point.
48:54
Point taken. Point taken. Taken. The other. The other example. That I was thinking of. Was.
49:00
Abraham and Isaac. What. What was. So. It's really an example. Of the faith.
49:05
Of Abraham. But. They're going. To service. With them. Like. Hey. Right. Where's the sacrifice.
49:12
And. At. Abraham turns around. Says. Hey. Wouldn't you know it. We're going to go up there. We're going to worship.
49:18
And we. Are going to come back down. Knowing. God said. I'm going to kill. You have to kill your son.
49:24
For me. Right. Abraham knew. That. His son was going to die. But at the same time.
49:30
He acknowledged. That we will come down. Exactly. Some way or another. God was going to provide. Something.
49:36
Whether it be. Bringing him back from the dead. Or he lied. Another sacrifice. Whatever it may be. Abraham knew.
49:42
Something was going to happen. Right. Or he lied. Or he lied. And if God lied. Or wait.
49:48
You're talking about Abraham lied? Abraham. Yeah. He could have lied. But I don't think so. Could he have? I don't know.
49:53
He could have. Because it didn't mention. And it didn't say. And Abraham was a.
49:58
Big fat dirty liar. He was an idol worshiper. That's verse 37. That's about it. That's verse 74.
50:04
But your point about. Bringing back from the dead. Hebrews even tells us. In chapter 11. He even assumed.
50:11
That God might even be able. To raise someone from the dead. Like. So what you're saying. Is he. He believed. That his.
50:17
Seed would be. Traveled through Isaac. And that Isaac was going to be dead. Because he walked. He walked with a promise. The promise was.
50:22
I will multiply you. Yeah. And then you. Then you get the. Oh. You're going to kill your son. Now wait a minute.
50:28
Okay. You said one thing. It wasn't just. I'll multiply you. And by the way. I said through Isaac. And oh.
50:33
Okay. You're trying to do it your own way. No no. You didn't hear me. I said through Isaac. Right. It will happen through Isaac.
50:39
Oh by the way. Isaac's going to die. Yeah. So. So. It's.
50:46
That's where my. Back to the. The whole. Well. Would they have died.
50:53
If he. If they. If Paul had not said anything. Would Abraham have had the same idea. Of faith.
50:58
If he were to go up there. And say. Oh yeah. We're going to go up there. And I'll come back down. Because that would have been a complete.
51:04
Like. Well that's the end of the. That. That promise is done. God broke a promise. Right. Which then destroys the entire.
51:10
Purpose of even reading the Bible. And. Right. And believing in a God. So. Yeah. I don't have a point to that.
51:18
I just want to say all that. No point taken. Yeah. I mean. We all want to ask the question.
51:23
What if. Now I think that's a huge. Point of the free. Choice. Versus. Determinist.
51:30
On. On. If I'm being honest. Automatron. I really haven't seen the free will side of things though. What do you mean?
51:35
Free choice side of things? Every. Well no. I want to. I do want to go to the other side. I want to. I want to argue the side.
51:41
Because there are people that are going to watch this. And be like. Oh well they're just a whole bunch of. They're. They're determinists. Sounds like some three determinists.
51:48
Yeah. Losers. And I'm not saying no in return. I can play that side real quick. Do it. Play that side. I heard the argument.
51:54
I don't even want to put the Hector hat on. Don't put the hat on. Because that's not even like a Harrison thing. It's not a Hector thing. All right. First off.
52:00
Let me get rid of one straw man. Let's do it. And then I'll do the free will thing. Okay. Okay. So the thing about the robots or.
52:08
Or. Automaton thing. I almost said Autobahn. That's a. I almost said Autobots. Okay. Okay. I love Citibon. Yeah. Yeah right.
52:13
Yeah. Roll out. See. Well it's funny. Autobots.
52:18
I said Autobots. You said Autobots. I said Citibon. Because I said Autobahn. I said
52:23
Autobahn like the racing. Yeah. The race train. Yeah. Yeah. No. Wait a minute. I'm sorry. The straw man.
52:29
Yes. Let me. Let me put another fat straw man first. Don't point at me and say fat.
52:35
Fat. So you just talked about auto. How do you say it? I'm about to talk about robots.
52:41
Okay. So you. You heard Autobots. I heard. I did Citibon.
52:47
And then you said roll out. And I'm thinking. Oh like your stomach rolls out from over your pants. Sorry. Go ahead. Wow. All right.
52:52
All right. So. Um. The reason.
53:00
That no one is saying. That God. Controls people like robots.
53:07
You. You mentioned the point earlier about the pen. That's not how the Bible depicts it. The Bible depicts it as this.
53:15
What you meant for evil. God meant for good. What you willed.
53:22
Planned. Determined. For evil. God planned. Willed. Determined. For good. Genesis 50 20.
53:27
So human creatures have a will. A determination. A plan. That's not a robot. That's not a puppet.
53:34
Right. The thing is. Is that God is infinitely more powerful. And his plan wills out every time.
53:40
And what you need to understand is. We're talking about Joseph. Joseph speaking to his brother. Speaking to his brother. When they sold him into slavery.
53:46
You planned it. The selling of slavery. For evil. God planned it.
53:51
The selling of slavery. For good. And we can go into a whole thing about how that was planned for good. But the whole reason there is.
53:58
A Jewish nation. For the rest of the Bible. Is because Joseph. Was sold to slavery.
54:05
Went to Egypt. Potiphar. Jail. Rise to power. In charge of the food. During the famine.
54:10
Puts it in the storehouse. Jews starve. All 70 of them. To travel to Egypt. Who's the only place in the world.
54:16
That has food. Because Joseph. Who was put in charge there. Has food. They buy food. They all live. The line of Jesus continues.
54:24
They planned it. For evil. God planned it. For good. Right. That's not robotic.
54:30
That's not. That's just God being more powerful. Right. And his plan wins out every time. That.
54:36
If you do the whole thing about. Robots. And. God controlling. That is not what is meant by determinism.
54:42
Even when people are goofy about it. That is. That's. That is foreign. To the idea of anyone who's seriously.
54:48
Reading the Bible. Yeah. Now. Non -theological determinist. Stances. That is very much.
54:54
Like. They say that you are. Controlled by the chemicals in your brain. Yeah. So therefore nothing you really do.
55:00
Is really you. Yeah. An atheistic worldview is fate. Is. Whatever. I'm sorry. Or you're controlled by the chemicals that say.
55:07
I don't have any faith in fate. Yeah. Right. I can't. I can't do. And yet. And by the way. If atheism is true. No one should ever be punished for anything.
55:13
You have the chance to change your fate. Would you. What is that from? It's brave.
55:20
Yeah. I was thinking like William Wallace. Like Braveheart. But I couldn't think about it. Brave. Yeah. Okay. That's close.
55:26
All right. You haven't heard the free will. So. Yeah. I want to do it. I haven't heard it. So I'll do that. I'm not putting
55:31
Hector on for those who listen. Because this is not. I'm not going to be an unchristian about it. I'm going to be. Okay. I'm going to be.
55:36
This was my former viewpoint. So I'm just going to do that. And it's not even devil's advocate. Right.
55:41
This is a real possibility here. Okay. So from a free will advantage point.
55:47
God is absolutely sovereign. Correct. Okay. God. Bases his decisions.
55:58
Based on. Foreknown. Conclusions. That he foresaw before the world ever began.
56:04
Right. Okay. There go, I am free to make that choice, but God has total knowledge of that choice, and always has, and is bringing it about to pass for good.
56:19
Ephesians 111 says, He works all things together according to the counsel of His will.
56:25
So the free will argument would say, if He is, that's present tense, works, is working.
56:31
If that is all determined before the world began, not just foreknown, then He, that shouldn't be in the present tense.
56:38
But it says He works, is working all things out the counsel of His will, which means He's still active in this world, and He's still active in this world because there are still free will agents operating in this world.
56:49
So that would, that would break the agnostic view of there may be a God, but He doesn't do anything with us.
56:56
Oh, right. Yeah. Deistic view. Sorry. Deistic view. Well, yeah. Agnostic is just,
57:01
I don't know. Deistic is... God made the world and took a vacation. Yeah. But He's hands -on.
57:07
The writers of Supernatural. Oh, I've been called the wrong thing. I am so sorry. Well, agnostics sometimes will speak that way, though.
57:13
Yeah. But a deist would say, He's just not human intervention. And a lot of atheists will try to say that so many of our founding fathers were deists in America.
57:22
Some of them were, but many of them were not. Ben Franklin, one of the ones they try to make a deist, said, If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, how can an empire rise without his aid?
57:33
Right. That's not the statement of a deist. Oh, no. That's a hardcore statement.
57:38
That's a nice one. I like that. So my point being is the will is still free.
57:47
Now, what many free will people say is this.
57:55
You're born with an inclination to sin, okay? And you are in a box, in a prison cell, and you can do whatever you want in that prison cell of sin.
58:11
Right. Okay? You can do whatever you want in that prison cell of sin, okay? You need grace to get out of that prison cell.
58:19
Nobody seriously is saying you don't. But in that cell, you can do whatever you want, okay?
58:26
Now, the determinants would say agreed. The problem is whatever you will want to do will always be sin.
58:33
Right. But the free will argument is based on sentences like this.
58:39
Choose you this day whom you will serve. If that's a command of the Bible, which it is, doesn't that imply that you have the ability to choose?
58:50
Otherwise, God has given you a command that you can't follow. If the Bible says, if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves, humble themselves and pray and seek my face, turn from the wicked ways, then
59:03
I will hear and heal and so on and so forth. The Bible says if anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself.
59:15
Humble yourselves, therefore, in the sight of God, and he will lift you up in due time. Philippians 2 also said that the only reason we would wish is because he gave us the desire to wish.
59:25
Agreed. But you still have to act on that desire. You still have to.
59:32
A desire is not enough. A desire is not enough. So when you say you haven't heard the free will side,
59:40
I'm just trying to. No, no, no. That's what I wanted. The idea is this. If God gives a command, there has to be an ability to obey or disobey that command.
59:53
So if God says, Adam, do not eat that fruit.
01:00:00
The implication behind that is. He could if he wanted to. Right. Right. And he also could not.
01:00:07
Exactly. That's the idea behind it. If God tells Moses.
01:00:14
If they obey my law, they will be prosperous. They will walk into the land and defeat their enemies and so on and so forth.
01:00:22
But if they disobey, their bodies will pile up in the wilderness. That implies that there is a choice that can be made if we can go on and on and on.
01:00:33
But Lot, if you or your wife look back, you will die.
01:00:42
Implies they have the choice to look back or to not. Right. Does it not? She could have had the choice to.
01:00:48
Right. So a free willer would say to a determinist,
01:00:53
I'm using terms, they would say, are you really saying that God, when you say determined, made
01:01:02
Lot's wife turn around even though he told her not to?
01:01:07
If he did, that means he made her sin. Correct. That's that's the idea behind it. And that's.
01:01:14
Disobeying God is sinful in any scenario. So that's the idea. Correct. So let's go ahead and make this distinction when it comes to determination.
01:01:22
And I think Pastor Josiah has done a great job in explaining that, you know, when it comes to the
01:01:29
Christian worldview of determinist and determination, God is not taking your hand by a string and doing this.
01:01:38
Right. Is there anything that God can't do? Yes. Correct.
01:01:45
Yeah. He can't sin. Correct. Can't lie. Can't break a promise. Exactly. So he cannot sin.
01:01:51
He cannot go against his nature. That could almost be the exact same thing. Yeah. That's fair. So like, it's not just that he won't flood the earth with water again.
01:01:59
He can't. He cannot or he would no longer be God because he promised he wouldn't. Right. Is there any limit to God?
01:02:05
I mean, just logical limits that he's created for himself. Correct. He wouldn't do that. Pick up a rock. He can't. His grace is limited.
01:02:12
His grace is limited by time and nothing else because he says there is a time where I'm going to be done with this crap.
01:02:19
I'm going to smack you. Jesus, the Father knows when the end of the days are, but Jesus doesn't.
01:02:25
He limited himself. Correct. Yeah. So in some ways you have to understand that there are some things
01:02:31
God cannot do. So when you say, yeah, God controls my actions and yes,
01:02:38
I'm a sinner. There's a big issue there because no, he didn't, but yes, you are.
01:02:43
Like, no, he did not control your actions.
01:02:48
He did not determine you to lie or to do that or whatever. He knew you were gonna.
01:02:54
And here's the thing. I hate, I hate this argument, but it's the one I'm going to use. Like I hate this opinion.
01:03:01
Well, what if we're both right? To an extent when it comes to free will,
01:03:09
I mean, free choice and determination, they, those ideas are very much married to me.
01:03:16
Those ideas are very intertwined. So let me, let me do this.
01:03:23
And I'm going to go right back to what I said at the beginning of this episode, sorry. We are free to play the game within the rules.
01:03:33
I cannot use monopoly money in the game of sorry, because I am playing sorry, right?
01:03:40
God made the board. He set the board. He set the game. He made the pieces. He made the rules. Do whatever you want in the game, use whatever type of strategy, quit, flip the table, whatever, what was on that table, sorry, right?
01:03:57
So Acts chapter 17, starting verse 26, from one man, he has made every nationality to live over the whole earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live.
01:04:11
Let me read that again. From one man, he has made every nationality to live over the whole earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live.
01:04:21
And what's so amazing, he's determined the boundaries and the time they would live.
01:04:27
And then the next verse. Yeah. He did this so they might seek God and perhaps they might reach out to him and find him though he is not far from each one of us.
01:04:36
So a couple of key words here, right? Huh? Yeah. So starting from the top, a couple of key words, determined their appointed times and boundaries of where they will live, right?
01:04:52
Andrew, let's say you're world building, let's say you're God, right? Or even just, you know, an author.
01:05:01
And I have this character that I want to put into my book. I could put him, you know, doing this, doing this task.
01:05:08
I'm going to put him, if I want my character that I'm having in my head right now to be the one that defeats this villain, right?
01:05:19
I'm going to put that character in chapter four and he's going to live here so that he will grow up into being this and we'll have these struggles so he can have this skill set.
01:05:28
Right? In the same way, God placed Andrew, not in 500
01:05:35
BC, but he put him in 19 -whatever America, right?
01:05:42
He determined the time and the boundary of where you would live. He did this so they might seek
01:05:49
God, might is another key word. And perhaps they might reach out and find him though he is not far from each one of us.
01:06:00
So here's what I'm saying. Very much on the side of, bro, you have the choice.
01:06:07
I feel like that spells it out so clearly. You might. God says,
01:06:13
I'm going to put you in a good position, son. You know what I'm saying? But I'm going to put you there.
01:06:21
And that's what I'm saying with, yeah, things are determined for sure.
01:06:26
God works things out and he's going to place you where you are. He is going to say, we are playing
01:06:33
Monopoly with you. These are, these are the rules because I made the world, I formed it,
01:06:38
I made you, I am going to place you in the world where I want you, when I want to, how
01:06:44
I want to, right? And I'm going to do it so that you might seek and find me.
01:06:51
But if you seek me, you will find me. And then one day he knows whether they are or they aren't. Correct. But you won't be able to say crap about it if you don't.
01:07:00
Right. I think when you were going through that, it made me think of perspective.
01:07:08
So perspective, from an author's perspective, I create this character.
01:07:14
I write this character. I know exactly what's going to happen with this character. I think that was a much better metaphor than the one I tried earlier. Yeah, it worked.
01:07:20
I couldn't figure it out. That works. That works. Yeah. So perspective. The author's perspective of this character is, this is what this character is going to do.
01:07:29
This is how they're going to do it. They're going to be this person, yada, yada, yada. Yeah. From the character's perspective of the author, okay, so the author knows everything that's going to happen.
01:07:41
I've just got to go, I just have to go and do what the author tells me. If I go off the author's path, either the author has to rethink it, or the author has a play for that decision to switch around, to go in the same direction as the author's path.
01:07:58
Did that make any sense? Yeah, but I'm not getting, what exactly point or question are you bringing up?
01:08:05
What I'm saying is, I think what you said was a good way to sum up the argument, is if you're looking at it from a determinist viewpoint, you're trying to look at it from the author's viewpoint.
01:08:16
Sure. If you're looking at it from a free will aspect, you're thinking of it from the character's perspective. I can make whatever decision
01:08:23
I want. If I believe that the author is sovereign, the author will make the decision I make work for his favor, which we know he does.
01:08:32
So I'm trying to sum it up a little bit. That's not a bad perspective. Right. I like what you're saying, and here's where I think it needs ...
01:08:40
Let's workshop it. Let's workshop it. Yes, because I like that. I think that from the character's perspective, it would be wrong to assume that the character would say the author would have to catch up with the character.
01:08:54
Because you said it correctly, the character in this situation would know that the author is sovereign, right?
01:09:01
So it's not that, oh, he just did something I didn't expect. Let's think of a way to continue him towards the path towards the villain so he can beat him.
01:09:11
Right? Well, I think in that well thought out analogy, though,
01:09:17
I think if the character knows the author's sovereign or doesn't, that doesn't change that the author really is sovereign anyway.
01:09:25
Yeah. In other words ... Okay. Let's go ahead and use Harry Potter. All right. Harry Potter is the way he is because J .K.
01:09:35
Rowling said he was. Right. I am the way I am because God said I was. This is really hard to think about.
01:09:42
Harry Potter doesn't know who J .K. Rowling is. Correct. Right. Harry Potter thinks he is, if you're watching the movie ...
01:09:49
That fictional character will never know. That fictional character thinks that he's doing whatever, but he's ... Okay. In that scenario,
01:09:56
I think Andrew's mindset, because the creature, because our mind is so finite, we have this much knowledge.
01:10:11
God is all knowledge. Our perspective, it is absolutely true that our choices have consequences because God has ordained that our choices have consequences.
01:10:25
Right. Right. In other words, he is sovereign over all of it.
01:10:34
Okay? He's sovereign over all of it, and we don't even know his full plan
01:10:41
A until some of it has come to pass. We know parts of it because he's told us. The parts he has not told us, we don't know.
01:10:47
We can look back in our lives and see, oh, that was
01:10:52
God doing this all along. But in the midst of it, we don't realize what he's doing yet because he has chosen not to reveal all that to us.
01:11:00
Right. But looking back, we'll see. The book of Revelation says that we will see all of his righteous acts will be revealed.
01:11:12
In the moment, we don't see how his hand is moving.
01:11:18
Our job is to trust that it is. But when we will be able to look back, Revelation says we will see that all of his righteous acts were all righteous.
01:11:27
Every one of them were righteous, were right, were good. We'll look back and say, that was the just and good thing to do.
01:11:37
At the point of approaching blasphemy, say, and if I was God, I would have done the same thing.
01:11:42
In other words, God will be justified in what he has done. In heaven, earth, and hell, the
01:11:48
Bible says. That's what the Bible says. In heaven, Philippians 2, in heaven and on earth and under the earth will say,
01:11:56
Jesus is Yahweh. That's what the Bible says. So, all his righteous acts will be revealed.
01:12:02
Right now, we can't see how that looks. But one day, we'll see the symphony he's been writing all along.
01:12:09
Now, I use the analogy of when you go to an orchestra and they're practicing, it sounds horrific.
01:12:15
Right. Because everyone's practicing their individual part, but not in time. And if you just snapshot the individuals, it's like, burp, burp, makes no sense.
01:12:27
Sounds like a terrible orchestra. But when that guy sets it in motion in time, it's beautiful.
01:12:34
When we are allowed to see how this world has been orchestrated this whole time, we'll see that it's beautiful.
01:12:42
In the midst of it, we can't see that. That doesn't mean it's not true, but we can't see it. Our job is to trust that it is being orchestrated and it will be revealed to us later on.
01:12:52
Can I add one thing to that? Yes. So, in addition to that, so when the orchestra's warming up and everyone's playing their own thing, there's a point to where everyone stops and there's one person that gives a tuning note.
01:13:07
Everyone then tunes and it sometimes will be one single note.
01:13:13
It rings out through the entire orchestra and everyone tunes to that one. That is what we like to call in the real world, unity.
01:13:21
We unify under one banner, under one note, because for those who don't know,
01:13:27
I am a musician. And a good one. Thank you. I appreciate that. But, this sounds sarcastic.
01:13:33
I do appreciate that. Under that one note, we unify and then we tune and then we play our pieces.
01:13:42
So, same way Christ will unify us all and then we'll be under his banner.
01:13:49
Great discussion, y 'all. Good discussion. Yeah, this was good. This was a good one. Kind of just blows your mind.
01:13:56
Yeah. Makes you think, man. You've got to live in that tension, though. At least
01:14:02
I'm allowed to think. Yeah. Do what? I said, at least I'm allowed to think. Yeah, well, we were determined to do this anyway.
01:14:08
Yeah, sure. But we don't know who we were, so it's as if. It's as if.
01:14:14
Okay. We got to choose. You know, one day, let's bring this back one day and talk about a couple more things like specific, because there's so much to this.
01:14:26
Like, we can talk about so much to this. We didn't even get to the Potter thing. Yeah. Shoot.
01:14:33
We did not even bring up Romans 9. That's okay. We'll get there. Romans 9, man. Anyway, guys, this podcast was brought to you by the determination of God.
01:14:47
With the choice of Brother Hunter to do it. We made the choice because we had to.
01:14:53
But we didn't know we had to, so it wasn't. And you're watching it. Maybe by choice.
01:14:59
I sure hope you chose to stay here and choose to. Give us a like.
01:15:05
Comment below. Dude, what are you thinking? They're just watching because the new season of, oh my gosh,
01:15:12
The Duttons. The Duttons? What's that show called? It's a really good show.
01:15:19
They're. They're watching because their show's off. Yeah, man. Someone's going to comment and say the name of the show that I've watched every episode of, but I can't think of it right now.
01:15:29
Keep going. Anyway, guys. Watch this. Tell us what you like. Tell us what you don't like. And if you don't like it, you give us a bad comment.
01:15:36
You were always meant to do that. I thought of it before I looked it up. Yellowstone. Yellowstone. Oh, oh, oh, oh.
01:15:43
Where's the audiovisual team on that one? We were doing nothing. Where was that? There's three of them there.
01:15:48
They have 17 phones and 46 gadgets, and they can't tell me what Yellowstone is. And only three people, which is even more fun.
01:15:54
Wow. All right. They're fired. Got any questions? Drop a comment. Send us an email.
01:16:01
Listenpointtaken at gmail .com. It'll be there this time. It will be there this time. On Instagram, listenpointtaken.
01:16:08
Shoot us a DM. Drop a comment on any one of the pictures. Hey, Hunter, what about the shirts? Guys, we will get back to you.
01:16:14
We will have your question on the podcast. Also, if you go to Wittenbaptistshirt. Wittenbaptistshirt.
01:16:21
Yeah! Wittenbaptistshirts. You did it again. I know. That's why I did that on purpose.
01:16:27
got shirts. We got apparel. But until next time. Deuces.