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Recording it. No, but we are now. You punk all right. We got it.
That was a get me another. No that was a goal that was one sip he saw I.
Saw what I saw the end of what I would have assumed. Over there was a phone.
Go. Our audio-visual team is of three. What do you mean 17? Nobody knows that?
Over there I feel like I feel like it's a question of angles like your chin if it's this far up. That's a gulp if it's like right here. That's a sip. But I I saw the aftermath of Pastor Josiah taking what I would have defined a gulp because he said All I gotta say is that it depends on what chin look.
If it's this chin, yeah.
You're not. I would make comments about how flat the next record was. Oh, there you are, but I'm not going to because I was grateful that you gave me any at all.
Thank you, you're welcome then again. Back in the room. Back in the room. At point taken podcasts is the point taken podcast the podcast where we make and take spiritual and biblical questions. And. Guys, my name is Hunter.
I'm the host of this podcast. To my left the immaculate. The Immaculate. Would you prefer scrumptious, okay. All right pastor.
Josiah Shipley. Hello everybody. There is pastor. So I got a question for you. Oh, we oh, is this a like repeat thing? I am happy to be here my brother Andrew. I'm ready. Can I? You don't have permission not to introduce.
I do. You are the host you have permission to do almost whatever you want.
And to my right guys as always Finnegan Guys a true statement. It was a true stand again. He's the man. He's a man with the plan. That's that that's our guy. Finnegan is obviously wearing our point taken apparel.
I have no pants and you didn't have to bring it up. But yeah Finnegan doesn't wear pants. It is part of his whole style and Oh pastor Josiah is also the perfect model. Maybe one step below our model. Sure Finnegan.
For our apparel, you see it won't be a church next week, by the way, everybody. He will be a church.
Thank you. Everybody will finally be able. Well, we might need to get him pants if he's gonna be a church next week. He doesn't need pants. I was like, you know come as you are. But not not as I am without without one pant.
Now. To introduce myself the host decided not to welcome shoulder everybody nice to the point-taking podcast. My name is Andrew cook and today Said just stole it for us to get to. Here's the thing. I had the choice and I took the choice.
Whoa, that's you see.
Knocked it down guys. Free will. Do you have a choice? like this video. Do you even have a choice like this video. Comment on this video. Share this video. You got a choice in anything that you do. Got a choice in anything that you say anything that you think and feel.
Automaton automaton. No I'm gonna pass it off to pass Josiah this to open up with a little prerequisite. Yeah.
For those of you new to the podcast We take and take we make and take biblical and spiritual truths and shout it up. Yeah, many of those are to the world. Controversial but to the Christian worldview are pretty standard last week.
We talked about abortion and in all orthodoxy of Christianity in all True believers. There's normally not too much debate about is it okay to murder God's creation? When we talk about things like World views.
When we talk about things like what is the Bible. When we talk about things? Gender roles a lot of these things are so clearly defined in the Bible That we can debate on minor details of them, but the the crux of it.
We're all pretty much on the same page here. Yeah, we call those distinctions doctrinal differences or theological differences. We three at this table can have different theological differences all day long because theology means the study of God.
Since we as humans are the ones doing the studying we can and will err. Right doctrine is a teaching found in the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation. Since God is the one doing the teaching it will never err you see that.
Doctrine is a teaching. God is the teacher. It will always be right grace. Heaven hell these are not debatable topics. Jesus and the Apostles and the prophets spoke about them unless you're progressive.
Yeah, those are doctrinal differences that we have with them. Those are things worth drawing a line in the sand over. Yeah theological differences for example for example Genesis chapter 6.
Yeah, we're all of those giants. That's what. That's one word that's the only one that I think I've ever.
You and I have ever had like conversation and just like disagreed on and that's a perfect example when hunter Dies and meets the Lord right. Hunter will realize he was wrong. Even be sad about it. It's gonna be okay.
You know what we have theological differences, and I'm willing to wait for them to come around on those. Of course, I'm being facetious the point being is we can still be in fellowship over those type things.
Today is an in-house debate an in-house debate on a theological difference that I'm not gonna say it doesn't matter. But it doesn't eternally matter. And as Paul would put it it is not one of those things of first importance.
That's what he says in first Corinthians 15 so we're gonna debate about this and I am happy to be on any and all sides of this because There is biblical precedent to not swing the pendulum too far on either side.
There is a biblical precedent. Okay. Yeah. The reason why Christians have debated these things for millennia is because there's biblical precedent on either side depending on how we define those terms.
Okay. Yeah, so one last prerequisite here and then we can have fun. When we define our terms the title this video will be determinism verse free will or. Yeah on either side we're not saying for example free wills and We'll get into this I'm sure.
That for example, that means you're not a slave of Jesus when you're willing to submit or you weren't a slave to sin. We'll get to that. We're also in determinism the light years of difference. From say an atheistic worldview of chemical reactions in the brain that are faded.
Right, that is not what any Christian means by determinism. So once we get those out of the way, we are just talking theological differences. These are not things that kick anyone out of the kingdom or bring them into the kingdom.
That's all I want to say and so when we're talking about this a lot of things That the Christians are gonna find important. This is why I like everybody's debates is pretty heavily there. There are two.
This is how I view it. At least there are two big things That the Christians care about how does salvation happen and Am I free to make my own choices, right? That's those are the big things about free will free choice predestination determinism.
How does that fit in those? How do you marry God's providence? Yeah, and my choice. Yeah, do I have a choice if God knows all and You know what you plan for evil. I plan for good and you know a big question How do you how does the Bible come to be without God literally?
Stringing things along. Yeah, you know I'm saying so let's first we got to attack the question What is free will hmm? First of all because that's the Biggest like you can't oversight that this is where we get technical free will is different in my opinion from free choice.
Hmm so to will something into being is impossible.
For anybody but God. So God has obvious. Yeah, well, I look this clearly right. We may or may not.
Have choice. So that's why I say when do you have free will? Like I know what you mean. So yeah, but no I have free choice. Right. I think that's the first Thing we got to make sure and say yeah.
Y 'all gonna have to keep me in check. This is an area. This is gonna sound arrogant. No, I don't want it to be at all that I have thought deeply about for a very long time so I could easily Commandeer this without trying to so y 'all got to keep me in check here.
Yeah, I would agree with that. I think one of the biggest problems we have Thank You Dana. Sneed a shout out We have is that we don't properly define our terms. And I think what hunter just did was successfully do that for us.
So let's just tackle that term free will and let me just start here that term Does not appear in the Bible, right? Someone is gonna look up in their Bible free will they're gonna get rid of the space in the middle and look up the term Free will offering but I mean Free will now for you determinists out there.
And I know that you're gonna define yourself as Calvinist or Augustinian or reformed or whatever. But we're not that's not what we're talking about right now specifically Careful because there's a lot of things that I believe they're not directly found in the Bible like the word triune or Trinity, right?
So but it's on Almost every other page. So simply saying those words don't appear in the Bible is not enough. Huckleberry Finn is about racism. The word racism does not appear in the book. Correct the word itself not being in there is not enough.
Okay, there's number one number two John and Jesus make clear that you either slave the sin or slave to Jesus. Those are the two options John Jesus God presents so when we say free will we got to be careful and this is what I was getting out of there that we don't mean.
And Christian if you have been lulled to sleep by this wake up. You should not mean by that term that we are completely morally ethically Neutral and Born that way. Oh, yeah, the Bible says the exact opposite.
That we were born in sin so Most of the time now there are some goofballs out there. That is not what a Christian is trying to convey when they say the term free will so maybe free choice is a better term.
That's how I was getting at Andrew. Go ahead. What am I asking? What are we answering the question? We're defining terms right brother hundred. Yes, sir. Well y 'all defined it All right. So is it so what do you want from me I guess I guess my point would be my point would be a Will that is enslaved to sin is not free but to hunters point.
The moment Paul switches from talking about in Romans global in total Condemnation in Romans 3, there's no one seeking God, right? To talking to converted people he switches from. You are dead too, and I beg you.
Now if you're begging someone That means they have a choice between at least two things. Otherwise, there's nothing to beg about right? So there has to be a difference in the will of a Born-again believer and a Not to born-again believer.
Here's here's how I want to preface my argument. You're not born this is my philosophy my opinion. When you are born. It's not like those games. Where you get to choose whether or not to be on the hero side or the bad side.
Yeah, yeah, and it's not like you have a little meter a good meter and you know or whatever. This is a night to the Old Republic. That's right. Like you can't Just choose like yeah, I'm gonna be sinless or I'm gonna do that right that much.
We know when we are born. We're selfish yeah, right. When we are conceived it is through the seed of a man and His Adamic sin is a part of us. That's why Jesus had to be born of a virgin, right? So this is how I think about it when it comes to having choice, I believe we have a choice.
I believe that. And this is again. People will disagree with me on this. I believe that as they were determined to because those are choice.
I just had to one time for the audience, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I believe that uh.
That I'm not controlled in my Emotion like my mind is not wired to think a certain way it is not. I can choose to do this. I can choose to do that. Um. But but this is how I consider life life is Kind of like you're playing by the rules of a game.
So in other words, I do not trade monopoly money when I play the game of sorry. You see what I'm saying? Hmm, like I'm not mixing that. So when I see the world and I see creation and I look at God I'm thinking God is the creator.
And of course when we're talking about free will free choice determination all that stuff. We're doing it from the Christian standpoint. So we're doing it from the idea that God exists and he made the world so God made the world.
He made all the rules of it. Yeah, he made that he made he is the maker of logic. Right, he created logic. He created if then right action consequence right all of that. So what I think a lot of people don't understand is that when a non Christian is arguing with the Christian and they're getting confused.
Well, remember we're playing by the rules. I Believe that this world has a set of rules. Right. This is why this is a sin. This is why this cannot work. It does does work, right? This is why we long eternity is in our hearts.
This is why we long for a creator because when God said Let there be and God put the rules and the laws and emotion He made the rules of the game and so the rules of it in that sense. No, I don't believe you have a choice because if you exist in his world you exist in his world.
Right. It's kind of like my house my you live under my roof roof. You live by my rules, right? It's kind of like kind of like that in the sense that I can still be rebellious to my parents in my house but You know, I'm still living within those four walls.
I'm still you know I'm not actually in Russia when I go home I have to be in that house if I live in that house the same way if I live on planet Earth. Then I live under the rule of God and so there are a lot of things that I Don't get to choose like being born sinful.
Is that yeah, I'm with you so far. Yeah, so when it comes to choice and free choice my opinion on Let's just start with the little stuff. You know when I go to make a sandwich for lunch, I don't think that anybody but me makes that decision.
What do you think? Do you have any opinions on this man last episode you called yourself a determinist man. Mm-hmm. I'm waiting. I'm listening to your argument. Okay, so you're waiting for me to be done.
Okay, yeah, you you you finish he'll jump in and then I'll go like this. Okay, we'll go like this.
Oh, so we're gonna our whole. Okay, my whole opinion. Let's go, bro. Let's go. Let's go ahead. I don't want to say anything and they'd be like, well, actually I did. I don't want that. I want to hear everything you have to say first and then he will tear it apart.
No, not even that just I want to hear everything first. Okay, so what does it say? You need to hear both yet? One side of the argument sounds good until you hear the other side. Yeah, so I don't. I try my best.
Whenever someone says like that, I want to say Proverbs of James cuz I know it's one of the two but they're so similar.
It's hard to go ahead. Go ahead. Right continue. So when it comes to stuff like that Nobody's making that choice but me but let's read in Ephesians 2. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins. This is starting to verse 1 in which you previously waltz according to the ways of this world.
According to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens the spirit now working in the disobedient. We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires. Carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thought and we were by nature children under wrath and others were also.
Yeah, right and then it goes into but God who is rich in mercy because it was a great love that he had for us might as well live right so Through that. Um, I'm seeing that's the rules of the game. Like that is your prerequisite.
You are born. You are already a slave like you can be free quote-unquote but when it speaks in James chapters 4 and 5 about About God's statutes not being a burden and these people were preached to you like come and be free like.
Man, you go to church. You had got to live by those rules like that really sucks like mm-hmm. We'll see you're also living by rules. That's what you're not understanding, right? Like you are already Living by the rules of the game right here.
You are a slave to your flesh like in your desire like and you really do think that's free. I understand why because you're doing what you want. But what you want is What is chaining you? Like think a little bit outside of that so.
To an extent no, we don't make our own choices in that way but we do make our Individual choices like I can choose to Quit my job and go to Arkansas In a week, you know, that's I'm free to do that. You know and nobody is pulling my string or pushing my button to do that.
I think three people have ever said that sentence. I'm gonna quit and move to Arkansas.
But yes, you could. Right I'm done. I Rest my time you rest your time. Okay. All right. So as I stated before I am a determinist and I probably may have spoken out of turn. I don't know but I'm just gonna go with what I what I have seen what I have studied in Scripture.
So I want to preface it by saying that God can do whatever he wants to do. Yes. Okay. He is free to do whatever. To use the analogy of the board board game. He's the one who made the board game. And thus he determines where the pieces fall he literally made the road map of how the pieces should go down the road.
So when it comes to When it comes to salvation I I do believe that it is Predetermined. Predestined. I think that there are those that will and there are those that won't and God knows exactly who all of them are.
And how their lives are gonna play out. In fact when when Jesus says That depart me from you workers of iniquity for I never knew you. When he's when he quotes that or when he says that we quote it now He knows who they are.
Yeah, and he's talking to the Pharisees obviously. But at the same time in this modern day and age, we we can kind of see it too. Like oh, well, you don't speak truth. You don't the you would ever read a Bible.
But so salvation salvationally, what's not eschatology?
Soteriology. So soteriology. Well, lickly. Yeah.
It's fine I believe that God has a predestined and predetermined who is who isn't as for the The choice to make a sandwich. I Don't I'm not gonna say that I am an automaton kind of believer person that think that everybody's Everybody's daily choice has been predetermined.
I don't I wouldn't say I'm that far into determinism as much as it's. There is an ultimate goal where they're going to end up. I don't believe in Mullen ism so for anybody doesn't that there was a debate debate between pastor James White and Dr. William Craig.
William Craig is a Mullen is and dr. White is a Reformed theologian. Anyway, the way that Mullen ism was described in that video was God knows what choice you will make under the right circumstances okay, and Then determinism would say that he knows exactly what you're gonna do.
And here's what this is how it's gonna work. I Don't Mullen ism is. It seems like an off-brand of determinism, I Know what decision you'll make if I put you in the right situation. So I'm gonna put you in the right situation to make you make that decision.
Wasn't that the same thing is saying? I know what you're gonna decide, right? So Anyway, but it does kind of limit God In the same way what Mullen ism or determine? Yeah. Yeah limit. Yeah, I mean it technically doesn't but also technically does and see that's where that's where the whole like When it talks about God changing his mind in the Old Testament, I don't I mean obviously it's there that the terminology is there.
But I don't think it means the same thing. Oh He was persuaded. No, he wasn't right. Oh, he was moved to he wasn't moved anything God already had a God had already determined what was gonna happen and said, all right.
This is what's gonna happen, but I'm gonna give by example He's gonna do this and that's gonna get all the other Israelite. Let's do it. I don't know where exactly that was but he's gonna be an example for everyone around him.
Jonah is a good example. Jonah God said go to Nineveh and take care of it. Okay ran the other direction. God's like, okay cool. You're gonna get on that boat. He got on the boat. He's gonna get thrown overboard giant fish gonna swallow him.
Cool. I know exactly what's gonna happen to him and what even Jonah was like at the end. Oh, I know exactly why this is happening with all the ship and the sailors are losing their minds. Like we got to pray to every God we can think of and he's like, hey, I know exactly what the problem is.
I know it's God. I know it's. They're like, oh really and they throw him overboard guys like cool. They didn't want to. They didn't want to yeah, which is interesting. I just thought I'd throw that in there.
They they were worried about. Yeah. He's like, no, it's good. Don't be overboard. Oh, I missed that. I'm so yeah, they were cool dudes. Like I read through Jonah again like later on and I was just like cuz I always thought yeah.
Oh, this is the dude. Yeah, right. Because the unbelievers acted more honorable than. Yeah, so yeah that so anyway, which happens today sometimes do by the way.
Which would I feel like bolster the argument of terminism because they? Were more honorable. They follow the law of their heart, which is what God put on them anyways. So they did God's will regardless.
Yeah Jonah man, that's that's a hard one because You have to think about. Because that is a great argument for what you're trying to say because Jonah was perfectly free to get on that boat to Tarshish Tarshish Tarshish or however you say it and He was totally free to do that.
And yet he was not free to get there like Like hey, you have a choice whether or not to rebel or to obey. But You're gonna end up doing it like you're gonna end up obeying and so you know the question that I think to myself is Am I?
You know, it's like is that for everybody or just for him? Like is that the rule? Is that a story? Basically him showing us like You go your own path, but it's gonna lead to the place. I tell you Like is that for everyone or is that This is the story of Jonah and this is what I'm doing with Jonah specifically.
That's a good question. Mm-hmm, so I Can think of it before you go?
Story. I just want to address that. Oh, sorry. Well, I'm just and this is for any new listener or the account the account. These are not stories. These are not fairy tales. These are not Grimm's fairy tales.
These are actual historical events that happened so. Not chastising. I know yeah.
School. A quote-unquote Christian high school who taught there wasn't actually a global flood that Adam and Eve were not historical figures.
You know all that stuff. I'm just dramatic. Sometimes I say this is the story of hunter all the time.
I do that. It is a story. It's just a real one and we use the term you do that when I say this.
I said, this is my story. Oh. How are many?
Okay, my turn yes, yeah for sure so I think one of the things we've got to do is Embrace a level of humility and here's what I mean by that. I mean that in a few ways I can think of a few people. Andrew said a couple words earlier.
He said predestined and I remember speaking someone years ago not at this church. Who someone said that word and This person rolled their eyes what word predestined, okay, and I pulled that person aside.
I said What's wrong with that and they said well, I just don't believe that I don't like that word at all I know but I said, okay that by the way the person who was reading was reading Ephesians chapter 1.
You're rolling your eyes at God's Word. That's a word that's in the Bible. Well, I don't agree with it. So well, you cannot agree with it all you want. It's in the Bible, right? Right? And so whenever people And I understand why you may say well people misuse that not and I get all that.
The problem is. The question is not Is not Does God sovereignly bring things to pass? Or Does man's choices have effects that is not the question? The question is the answer to that is both or yes, so the question is to what extent yes.
In other words, the Bible teaches that man's choices have consequences. But that's what the Bible teaches if my people do X Y will happen if my people do Z a will happen. That's what the Bible says. I all of the Old Testament.
Yeah to what I have said before you life and death choose life and live. Why will you die of house over Israel? So I before I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked. But they would repent and turn from the way so If my people, you know who choose you in this day whom you will serve and all the other stuff.
The question is not Do our choices have consequences? The question is not does God sovereignly bring things the past the question is what does that look like and how do those harmonize to? What extent on each side?
Yeah that I think frames the question a lot better so Psalm 115 3 our God is in heaven does whatever he pleases. Yeah. Yeah, I am unwilling to make the word Whatever mean anything other than? Whatever.
Okay. I am also unwilling to make acts 27 where it says Acts 17 he calls all men everywhere to repent. And I've I have read and heard the arguments that all men doesn't mean all men. It means all types of people I can't buy that it says all men I just I need I need the word all to be the word all when it's the word all I need the word whatever to Be and you can't pick and choose on when it means which one, right?
So the question is what does that look like because what all three of us will agree on is that God's Word is inerrant? Yes, okay. And that whenever it appears to not be to me it is my failure to understand not God's fault for writing it that way.
So so like one of the one of the examples Andrew brought up earlier. There's a few times in the Old Testament where it says something like this says and God Repented that he had ever created man or God regretted that he had made Saul King.
There's a few of them like that. The one about Saul is really cool because at the end of that chapter. And by the way, I don't know this because I was in doubt. I know this because I had the same question and wanted to figure it out.
Okay? The that chapter ends by saying this so the beginning part of that chapter of the middle says and in Yahweh Regretted or repented that he had made Saul King.
Okay, this would be in 1st Samuel.
Yeah, you're right. The end of that chapter says for the Lord does not regret like man regrets. Right. So the question is what does that mean that God regretted? The best analogy. Because remember God is the one who brought that to pass.
God is the one who chose Saul. Well, the people chose Saul because he was a head taller and all the stuff, but God brought that to pass. He said if y 'all really want a king, okay. But if you do this is gonna happen and then you're gonna that's what's gonna happen.
I was about to say.
Yeah that he laid it out. It's like right. This is exactly what you're gonna kind of have to go through in order to get this King now.
Here's what I want y 'all to wrap your heads around. So most of us want to leave it there see. God didn't want a king. But they chose a king. The problem with that is that God promised from before the ages began.
That Jesus would come from the line of King David. All right. God had always planned there would be a monarchy in Israel. You follow my logic here guys. God had always planned for there to be a monarchy in Israel so the question guys don't be so simplistic of well, that was their choice not God's or That was to what does that look like?
The best analogy I've ever heard for this again, and when I start talking too much just tap now or say shut up I'm gonna give a An analogy I heard from a prominent theologian and then I'm gonna give a biblical example of what I think that would look like.
Okay, okay, and then I think I'm good here. And This is not my original but I'm gonna change it to be my original. Let's pretend I was more holy than I am and more sanctified than I am right now and more obedient to God than I am right now.
Let's say Ava when she turns 15 my daughter does something really bad and I discipline her for it and The result of that discipline is that she leaves and I never see her again. I Don't hear from her.
I don't know where she goes. I don't know what happens to her. I don't know where on planet Earth. She is. I never ever ever see my daughter again. Let's pretend that Elon Musk really does build a time machine.
Okay, I understand. Just let's pretend. Okay, not flashpoint. Right. W crap. I mean actually yeah, okay. We could we could we're not going to All right. Okay, and I go back in time to that moment and I haven't seen my daughter in 30 years.
I Go back in time to that moment. Now I know that if I discipline her and let's pretend I was righteous in disciplining her. Let's pretend I didn't do I did what the Bible says, okay? And I don't think I know with 100 certainty that the results of me disciplining her will be I never see her again.
So in that sense, I would be bringing that to pass at least in that sense I Understand. Yeah, her choice has a consequence of leaving but I am the one who is now in control that choice. I have total control over what's going to happen in that sense.
Y 'all follow me so far, right? Assuming I was as obedient as I would hope I would be I would still discipline her again. Because it was the right thing to do. Knowing the result I Think I would I would discipline her because that's the right thing to do.
Okay, and I would regret That I did that. But if I did it over again, I would do it again and again. So if I am capable of regretting something that I brought to pass then God Can have an emotion even one that sounds like a human emotion.
Anger regret right and remorse happiness joy. Regret something that I brought to pass okay, y 'all follow me on that a biblical example of that of How I think of it when we talk about these things is in Acts 27.
That's what I was trying to say earlier. All right. So Paul is On a ship he is imprisoned, but he Appealed the Caesar and he's on his way to Rome. Okay, right. The ship has like a hundred and fifty three dudes on it.
Okay, and they're going to Rome and there's a terrible storm and It looks like they're about to all crash and die. It's nighttime and An Angel of God tells Paul not one human being is going to die tonight.
All 153 of you are going to live through this storm. Now if God says that how many people are going to die? No zero. In the middle of the night some of the soldiers Try to get on the little lifeboats on the sides of a ship and cut the ropes and get in the water.
Paul looks at the captain say if they get in those little boats, they are going to die. Now listen, listen that again God said no one will die. Paul said if they get in those boats, they will die. I Don't believe that's a contradiction because guess what if they got in those boats, they really would die because when God Predestined something like the cross.
He doesn't just predestined that it happens. He predestines how it will happen, right? So in the example the cross Herod Pilate the Jews the Gentiles, okay God used Paul to warn them. So they would not get in those boats if they had they would have died.
But no one died because God told Paul to tell them to not get in those boats and use that fear to keep so in other words If you can keep it with me here God brought that to pass. God said no one will die, but instead of living in some fatalistic world were okay.
Well, that means I'm a Christian so I can do whatever I want. You're missing the point because God also brings about the means right, so It's not just that God said no one died. No one died because God told Paul if they get in those boats, they would die.
And if they had gotten those boats, they really would have died. But they were never going to get in those boats because God told Paul to warn them because God said no one will die. Yeah. That's what I mean when I try to say to what extent so I Can look at Andrew and say God brought that to pass.
He ordained that no one would die. He ordained that no one would die. So guess how many people were going to die? Zero. But not in some mystical bubble but in real natural consequences of choices that he has brought to pass and has.
Means of how those really brought the past and that's the big question is did he use? His foresight and his foreknowledge and to say yeah, these people aren't gonna end up getting off the boat. They're good.
Hey, nobody's gonna die but because of the actions of this person right or did he say These kids will choose not to get off the boat either a because I'm gonna tell Paul to say that or be because I'm just not God have stepped in like that's stepping in.
He said, all right, he sent an angel and said No one on this boats gonna die. So then Paul's like, okay in order for that to happen No, everyone has to stay on this boat, right? So God stepped in and said Here you go.
Don't like he didn't say he did not say. You tell them they cannot get off the boat. He just said no one on this boats gonna die, right? And Paul being a wise man went. Okay, everyone on this boat has to stay on this boat.
So we can at the same time say if they did not say in the boat. They really honestly and truly would have died like that like their choices have consequences. But they were never going to get off the boat, right?
That's what's so amazing. Everything that has happened was always going to happen. Not in a and has always happened. So basically. Every choice that you make. So let's say when I was 40 years and when I'm 40 years old when I was 40 years old when I'm 40 years old, I Walk out of my house on an icy day and I slip and I fall and I you know, tear my ACL.
That was always going to happen because it happened. Right like in my mind now as a 24 year old I can think I can choose to salt my porch the night before or to Stay in bed a little longer and maybe I'll have sure footing next time, you know, so whatever.
But everything that will happen was always going to happen because something has to happen. Because only one thing can happen. So in other words. Like it was determined. No. Just try and stay with me here because think of this every happenstance.
Every action every what I call happening. That happens. Oh, no, not the happening. Yeah, is that I don't remember what that is all the trees. Every thing that Does or is or happens? There's only one thing that can happen.
So in other words if I have a choice I Can choose to tap this pin on Josiah's thumb? His index his middle his ring or his pinky or his palm. I could do any of that. But when I throw this pin down on That index that was always gonna happen because that's what happened not because God said You're gonna choose the index.
It's because that happenstance that happened was always gonna happen because something had to happen. Okay. Then God wasn't solving over that's that moment. No. See that's that's where my brain. Okay, so happenstance happenstance happens.
All right, so. That was cool. Yeah, that was so. That happened outside of God's will. No. Okay. But if I had not done that with evident, but did God do that? Did God do I can say that was always going to happen?
Okay from the moment God said let there be you were going to flop that arm Onto the table and there's gonna be reverb and you were gonna say. Oh, that was cool. That was always going to happen, but nobody ever ordained you to do that.
But it's within God's will. Everything that happens was always going to happen. But I don't have to say that in the sense that God set it in motion and said this is what's going to be. It will every single choice.
But I can still say everything that has happened or will happen wasn't is always going to happen. And I don't necessarily mean that means that God willed every single one of those things. I think that he does well certain things as in let there be you know and Many more but then you know, yeah, I'm just saying I see where you're coming from.
Yeah when I when I say everything that has happened or will happen was always going to happen because Anything that happens has to happen and only one thing can happen. I Mean did not necessarily. Does God have to say?
You know hunter will take this pin out out of his cap and put it back in. You know and he he knew that was gonna happen before he said let there be but that doesn't mean that he did that. He made me do that exercise biting.
He's ready. No. No. Okay, so then I have a question as cool as the idea is is there is no such thing as multiverse. Right because the multiverse theory would say that for every action. There is an infinite number of.
For every choice for every choice you make there is an infinite number of a version. You would know God that doesn't exist right correct because he's determined everything. Oh, that would be super cool.
That would be really interesting could you imagine okay? All right? Well, then here's my going back to the whole Example from acts. You said if they got off that boat they would die. Yes.
Paul said they would those words are recorded in Scripture, but God said no one would exact. That's my point.
Right my thought process and this is just me thinking this is my opinion. God said it would not happen. So even if Paul had not stepped in no one would have died. There it is. Wait for it. God said that knowing that Paul would say that and he I mean I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.
But I'm also pointing out that if I know Let's say this I I'm trying to make this in my head. Okay. Your waters out. You have no water at the house. Okay? Okay, you have one bathroom in your house. Okay, you are in the car with your kids.
Your wife is also on the way home in another car. Your wife has told you that she needs to go pee. Okay, the kids you can tell the kids the your wife is gonna get there before all y 'all. You can tell your kids when you get to the house.
You will not Be able to use the bathroom. There will be no more water left because that one last flush is gonna be done. You can say that and it'd be true. I failed this. I'm sorry. I'm trying. It's like he knows he knew that he was gonna say that.
Right, right. I get that part. I guess he had that outside him. He had that information.
Right. So my point was being is exactly what he's trying to get at what you said I feel like if Paul had told them that Then there is no if Paul had not told them that because that was part of God's plan, right?
In other words God God has a plan a there is no plan B. We all understand that there is no plan B. God has never been like what do we do now when Adam and Eve ate the fruit? We all understand this when Adam and Eve ate the fruit God didn't say oh, I didn't see that one coming.
The Bible says Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world that would include before Adam and Eve ate that stupid fruit. So my point is Acts 4 26 and 27 for in this city Herod Pilate the Jews and the Gentiles who might as well call them the Romans here Herod Pilate the Jews and the Gentiles Came together against your anointed one To do whatever your hand and your plan has predestined to take place.
Let me read that again. For in this is quoting. Sorry for in this city. That's impressive both Herod and Pilate the Jews and the Gentiles. Let's just take those four groups of people. Herod did he do anything sinful that night?
I would say yes pilot yeah, having a. It's got a neutral. He's like, well, he was a coward. Yeah. He had the power to do what was right into him to knows what it do is right and does not do it to him.
It is The Jews crucify him. Cruz. Yeah, okay. We're good, right the wrong think they do anything wrong. Okay, the Romans. The Romans do we even need to write? Okay. They came together. They came together doesn't say they were moved.
They came together of their own accord Against your Messiah to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place so in other words When someone says well, what if pilot had free Jesus would Jesus have still been crucified.
I don't believe there's such a thing as there isn't such a thing as what if pilot had right in pilots mind there was because pilot is not omniscient in The Jews mind and they're not omniscient. So, of course there is a what if but in the reality of God's plan a there's no such thing as the words.
There's no such thing as the words what if Babylon had not conquered Jerusalem in 586 BC. There's no such thing as what if Goliath had killed David? There's no such thing as what if there is no multiverse?
There is no doctor strains. I see fourteen million two hundred and thirty-eight thousand ways in which he wins and one.
Yeah, God could have made sure nobody died by not making a storm. Oh. Exactly, right just like and and I think that's the big point here is that God? He said nobody's gonna die and that could have come about because there was never as a Danger like that.
He could have just said no storm, but he chose send an angel let him know everybody's gonna be chill and Because of that I know that he's gonna say don't get off this boat. And that's a way to do it and it also Lets everybody else know when this is documented forever in the Word of God.
That you know, we can sit down here at this table and have a conversation about it. And I think so just to and I don't disagree. I think I think that's fair. That's a fair point point taken point taken.
The other the other example that I was thinking of was Abraham and Isaac what it was so it's really an example of the faith of Abraham, but They're going the two servants with them like hey Where's the sacrifice?
And at Abraham turns around says hey wouldn't you know it we're gonna go up there? We're gonna worship and we are gonna come back down knowing God said I'm gonna kill you have to kill your son for me right.
Abraham knew that his son was gonna die. But at the same time he acknowledged that we will come down exactly some way or another God was gonna provide Something whether it be bringing him back from the dead or another sacrifice, whatever.
It may be Abraham knew something was gonna happen right or he lied or he lied. And if God a lot or wait, you tell my Abraham lie Abraham. Yeah. He could have lied, but I don't think could he have. I don't know he could because it didn't mention.
Like and it didn't say and Abraham was a big fat dirty liar. He was an idol. That's verse 37.
That's verse 74, but your point about bringing back from the dead Hebrews even tells us in Chapter 11 he even assumed that God might even be able to raise someone from the dead like so what you're saying is he he he believed that his See would be traveled through Isaac and that Isaac was gonna be dead.
He walked with a promise. The problem is I will multiply you. Yeah, and then you. Then you get the oh. You're gonna kill your son. Now. Wait a minute.
You and by the way, I said through Isaac and oh, okay, you're trying to do it your own way. No, no, you didn't hear me. I said through Isaac right happen through Isaac. Oh, by the way, Isaac's going to die.
Yeah so.
So it's that's where my. Back to the the whole well. Would they have died if he if they if Paul had not said anything? Would Abraham have had the same idea of faith if he were to go up there and say oh, yeah.
We're gonna go up there and I'll come back down. Cuz that would have been a complete like well. That's the end of the that that promise is done God broke a promise right which then destroys the entire purpose of even reading the Bible and writing in a God so.
Yeah, I Don't have a point to that. I just want to say all that no point taken. Yeah, I mean We all want to ask the question. What if now? I think that's a huge point of the free choice versus Determinist on on if I'm being honest, I haven't seen the free will side of things though.
What do you mean free choice side of things every? Well, no, I want to I do want to go to the other side I want to I want to argue this side because there are people there to watch this and be like, oh well, they're just a whole bunch of.
They're they're determined sounds like some three determinist. Yeah.
First off. Let me get rid of one straw man, and then I'll do the free will thing. Okay. Okay, so the thing about the robots or Automaton, I said Autobahn. That's it. Roll out.
Like the racing. Yeah the race. Yeah, I'm sorry the straw man. Yes. Let me let me put another fat straw man first. So don't point at me and say fat.
Fat. So you just talked about auto otter. How you say it? I'm about to talk about robots. Okay.
So you heard auto bots? I heard I did sin a bond and then you said roll out and I'm thinking I like your stomach rolls out from over your Pants. Sorry, go ahead.
The reason that no one is saying that God Controls people like robots you mentioned the point earlier about the pen. That's not how the Bible depicts it. The Bible depicts it is this. What you meant for evil God meant for good what you willed planned.
Determined for evil God planned will determine for good Genesis 50 20. So human creatures have a will a determination a plan. That's not a robot. That's not a puppet, right? The thing is is that God is infinitely more powerful and his plan wills out every time and what you need to understand is.
We're talking about Joseph. Joseph speaking to his brothers when they sold him into slavery. You planned it the selling of slavery for evil. God planned it the selling of slavery for good and we go into a whole thing about how that was planned for good, but the whole reason there is a Jewish nation for the rest of the Bible is because Joseph Was sold to slavery went to Egypt Potiphar jail rise to power in charge of the food during the famine.
Puts it in a storehouse. Jews starve all 70 of them to travel to Egypt who's the only place in the world that has food because Joseph Who was put in charge there has food they buy food. They all live.
Line of Jesus continues. They planned it for evil. God planned it for good, right? That's not robotic. That's not that's just God being more powerful. And his plan wins out every time that if you do the whole thing about robots and God controlling.
That is not what is meant by determinism. Even when people are goofy about it. That is that's that is foreign to the idea of anyone who's seriously reading the Bible. Yeah now non theological determinist.
Stances. That is very much. Like they say that you are controlled by the chemicals in your brain. Yeah for nothing. You really do. Is you think worldview is fate is whatever. I'm sorry, you're controlled by the chemicals.
Yeah, right, I can't I can't do and yeah, and by the way if atheism is true No one should ever be punished or anything change your feet. Would you? What is that from it's brave. I Was thinking like William Wallace like Braveheart, but I couldn't think about it.
All right. Yeah. Okay. It's close. You all right. You haven't heard the free will. So I'll do that. I'm not putting Hector on for those you listen because this is not. I'm not gonna be an un-christian about I'm gonna be okay.
This was my former viewpoint. Well, so I'm just gonna Do that and it's not even devil's advocate. This is a real possibility here. Okay? So from a free world vantage point God is absolutely sovereign.
Correct? Okay God Bases his decisions based on foreknown Conclusions that he foresaw before the world ever began right? Okay there go I am free to make that choice, but God has total knowledge of that choice and always has and Is bring it about to pass for good?
Ephesians 1 11 says He works all things together according to the counsel of his will. So the free will argument would say if he is that's present tense works is working. If that is all determined before the world began not just foreknown then he that shouldn't be in the present tense.
But it says he works is working all things out the counsel of his will. Which means he's still active in this world and he's still active in this world because there are still free will.
Agents operating in this world. So that would that would break the agnostic view of There may be a God, but he doesn't do anything with us. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah deistic view. Sorry deistic. Well, yeah.
Gnostic is just I don't know. Deistic is God made the world a vacation. Yeah, but Agnostics sometimes will speak that way though. Yeah. But a deist would say he's just not human intervention and a lot of atheists will try to say that so many of our founding Thoughters fathers were deist.
In America. Some of them were but many of them were not. Ben Franklin one of the ones they try to make a deist said if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice How can an empire rise without his aid?
Right? That's not the statement of a deist.
Anyway, that's a hardcore state.
So my point being is The will is still free now what. What many free will people say is this You're born with an inclination to sin. Okay, and you are in a Box in a prison cell. Mm-hmm, and you can do whatever you want in that prison cell of sin.
Right. Okay, you can do whatever you want in that prison cell of sin. Okay. You need grace to get out of that prison cell. Nobody seriously is saying you don't. But in that cell you can do whatever you want.
Okay. Now the determinants would say agreed. The problem is whatever you will want to do will always be sin. Right. So but the the the free will argument is based on sentences like this Choose you this day whom you will serve.
If that's a command of the Bible Which it is Doesn't that imply that you have the ability to choose? Otherwise God has given you a command that you can't follow if the Bible says If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves Humble themselves and pray and seek my face turn from the wicked ways, then I will hear and heal and so on and so forth.
The Bible says if anyone wishes to come after me he must deny himself Humble yourselves therefore on the side of God and he will lift you up in due time.
Philippians 2 also said that the only reason we would wish is because he gave us the desire to wish agreed.
But you still have to act on that desire. You saw that a desire is not enough a desire is not enough, so. When you say you haven't heard the free will side, I'm just trying to no no. No, that's what I wanted.
The idea is this. If God gives the command Sorry, there has to be an ability to obey or disobey that command. Okay, so if God says Adam do not eat that fruit. The implication behind that is he could if he wanted to right?
Right, and he also could not exactly that's the idea behind it if God tells Moses If they obey my law, they will be prosperous. They will walk into the land and defeat their enemies and so on and so forth.
But if they disobey their bodies will pile up in the wilderness. That implies that there is a choice that can be made. If you know, we can go on and on and on but Lot if you or your wife look back you will die.
Implies. They have the choice to look back or to not right does it not. She could have had the choice to right. So a free willer would say to a determinist. I'm using terms. Yeah, they would say are you really saying that God?
When you say determine made lots wife turn around. Even though he told her not to if he did that means he made her sin. Correct that's that's the idea behind it and that's that disobeying God is sinful in any scenario.
So that's the idea.
Correct. So let's go ahead and make this distinction when it comes to determination and I think Pastor Josiah has done a great job in explaining that. You know when it comes to the Christian worldview of determinist and determination.
God is not Taking your hand by a string and doing this right? Um. Is there anything that God can't do? Yes, correct. Yeah can't sin. Correct. Can't lie. Can't break a promise. Exactly. So he cannot sin.
He cannot go against his nature. That could almost be the exact.
Yeah, yeah, that's fair. So like it's not just that he won't flood the earth with water again. He can't cannot or he would no longer be God because he promised he wouldn't. Right. Is there any limit to God?
I. Pick up a rock he can't his grace.
His grace is limited by time and nothing else because he says there's a time where I'm gonna be done with this crap. I'm gonna smack you. Jesus the Father knows when the end of the days are but Jesus doesn't.
Right limited himself, correct? Yeah. So in some ways You have to understand that there are some things God cannot do. So when you say Yeah, God controls my actions and yes, I'm a sinner there's a big issue there because no he didn't but yes you are.
Like no, he did not control your actions. He did not determine you to lie or to do that or whatever. He knew you were gonna. And here's the thing. I hate I hate this argument, but it's the one I'm gonna use like I hate this opinion.
Well, what if we're both right? To an extent when it comes to free will I mean free choice and determination. They those ideas are very much married to me. Those ideas are very Intertwined so let me let me do this and I'm gonna go right back to what I said at the beginning of this episode.
Sorry. We are free to play the game. Within the rules. I Cannot use monopoly money in the game of sorry because I am playing. Sorry, right? God made the board. He set the board. He set the game. He made the pieces.
He made the rules. Do whatever you want in the game use whatever type of strategy. Quit. Flip the table. Whatever what was on that table? Sorry, right? So acts chapter 17 starting verse 26 from one man He has made every nationality to live over the whole earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live.
Let me read that again from one man he has made every nationality to live over the whole earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live.
And what's so amazing? He's determined the boundaries and the time they would live and then the next verse.
Yeah. He did this so they might seek God and perhaps they might reach out to him and find him. Though he is not far from each one of us. So a couple of key words here, right? Huh? Yeah, so I'm starting from the top a couple of key words.
Determined their appointed times and boundaries of where they will live. Right Andrew. Let's say you're world-building. Let's say you're God. Right or even just you know. Yeah, but so it's an author and I have this character that I want to put into my book.
I could put him, you know doing this doing this task. I'm gonna put him if I want my character. That I'm having in my head right now to be the one that defeats this villain. Right, I'm going to put that character in chapter 4 and he's gonna live here.
So that he will grow up into being this and we'll have these struggles so he can have this skill set right in the same way God placed Andrew not in 500 BC. But he put him in 19, whatever America. Right, he determined the time and the boundary of where you would live.
He did this so they might seek. God might is another key word and perhaps They might reach out and find him though. He is not far from each one of us so Here's what I'm saying. Very much on the side of bro.
You have the choice. I feel like that spells it out. So clearly you might God says I'm gonna put you in a good position son. You know I'm saying but I'm gonna put you there and that's what I'm saying with.
Yeah, things are determined for. Sure, God works things out and he's gonna place you Where you are, he is going to say we are playing monopoly with you. These are these are the rules because I made the world I formed it I made you.
I'm gonna place you in the world where I want you when I want you how I want you. Right, and I'm gonna do it so that you might Seek and find me, but if you seek me you will let him day. He knows whether they are they aren't correct.
But you won't be able to say crap about it if you don't right. I think one when when you were going through that it made me think of Perspective so perspective. From an author's perspective. Yeah, I Create this character.
Yeah, I write this character. I know exactly what's gonna. I think that was a much better metaphor than yeah when I try it. Yeah, so Perspective the author's perspective of this character is. This is what this character's gonna do.
This is how they're gonna do it. They're gonna be this person yada yada. Yeah from the character's perspective of the author. Okay. So the author knows everything that's gonna happen. I've just got to go.
I just have to go and do what the author tells me if I go off the author's path. Either the author has to rethink it or the author has a play for Matt decision to switch around. To go in the same direction as the author's path.
Did that make any sense? Yeah, but I'm not getting. What what exactly point or question? Are you bringing what I'm what I'm saying is is I think what you said was a good way to sum up. Yeah, the argument is if you're looking at it from a determinist viewpoint.
You're trying to look at it from the author's viewpoint. Sure if you're looking at it from the free. You're thinking of it from the character's perspective. I Can make whatever decision I want if I believe that the author is sovereign the author will make the decision I make work for his favor, which we know he does.
Right, I I like what you're saying and here's where I think it needs. It's not because I I like that. I Think that from the character's perspective. It would be wrong to assume that the character would say the author would have to catch up with the character.
So because you said it correctly the character in this situation would know that the author sovereign. Right, so it's not that. Oh, he just did something I didn't expect. Let's think of a way to continue him towards the path towards the villain so he can beat him right like.
Well, I think in that well thought-out analogy though, I think if the character knows the author sovereign or doesn't that doesn't change that the Author really is sovereign. Yeah, in other words, okay, but let's let's go ahead and use Harry Potter.
All right JK Harry Potter is the way he is because JK Rowling said he was right. I am the way I am because God said I was. This is really hard to think about. Yeah, Harry Potter doesn't know who JK Rowling is correct, right?
Harry Potter thinks he is if you're watching a fictional character. Character thinks that he's doing whatever. Yeah, but he's okay. So in that scenario, I Think Andrews mindset because the creature because our Mind is so finite.
Okay. We have this much knowledge. God is all knowledge. So our perspective. It is absolutely true that our choices have consequences because God has ordained that our choices have consequences, right?
Right in other words. In other words, he is Sovereign over all of it. Okay, he's sovereign over all of it and we don't even know his full plan a until some of it has come to pass. We know parts of it because he's told us the parts.
He has not told us. We don't know now we can look back in our lives and See, oh that was God doing this all along. But in the midst of it, we don't realize what he's doing yet because he has chose not to reveal all that to us.
Right, but looking back. We'll see in the book of Revelation says that we will see all of His righteous acts will be revealed in them in them in the moment. We don't see How his hand is moving our job is a trust that it is.
But when we will be able to look back Revelation says we will see that all have his righteous acts were all righteous. Every one of them were righteous or right or good. We'll look back and say That was the just and good thing to do and at the point of approaching blasphemy.
Say and if I was God, I would have done the same thing. In other words, God will be justified in what he has done in heaven earth and hell. The Bible says that's what the Bible says in heaven. Philippians 2 In heaven and on earth and under the earth will say Jesus is Yahweh.
That's what the Bible says. So all his righteous acts will be revealed right now. We can't see how that looks. But one day we'll see the symphony. He's been writing all along now. Analogy of when you go to an orchestra and they're practicing it sounds Horrific, right.
Because everyone's practicing their individual part, but not in time. And if you just snapshot the individuals, it's like burnt to burn. Makes no sense. I'm like a terrible work, but when that guy Sets it in motion in time.
It's beautiful. When we are allowed to see how this world has been Orchestrated this whole time. We'll see if it is beautiful in the midst of it. We can't see that. That doesn't mean it's not true. But we can't see it our job is a trust that it is being.
Orchestrated and it will be revealed to us later on. Can I have one thing to that? Yes, dear. So in addition to that. So when the orchestra is warming up and everyone's playing their own thing. There's a point to where everyone stops and there's one person that gives a tuning note.
Everyone then yeah tunes and it's this it sometimes will be one single note. It rings out through the entire orchestra and everyone tunes to that one. That is what we like to call in the real world unity.
We unify under one banner under one note because I'm for those who don't know. I am a musician and a good one. Thank you. Appreciate that. But this has our cast. I got to appreciate that. Under that one note we unify and then we tune and then we play our pieces.
So same way Christ, you know, good to know unify us all. Yeah, and then we'll be under his banner.
Hmm great discussion y 'all good. Kind of just blows your mind. Yeah Yeah. You've got to live in that tension though, and at least I'm allowed to think yeah.
Do what I said at least I'm allowed to think now. Well, we were determined to do this. Anyway, yeah, sure.
But we don't know we were so it's as if it's as if we weren't okay.
We got the cheese, you know one day. Let's let's let's bring this back one day and talk about a couple more things like specific. Because there's so much There's so much to this like we can talk about.
So much to this get to the Potter thing. We'd yeah. We did not even bring up Romans 9, that's okay. We'll get there Romans 9 man. Anyway guys. This podcast was brought to you by the determination of God.
We made the choice because we had to but we didn't know we had to so was it and you're watching it maybe by choice. Nate I Sure, hope you chose to stay here and choose to give us a like. Comment below dude.
What are you thinking?
They're just watching because the new season of oh my gosh the Dutton's Dutton's what's that show called? It's a really good show. Oh, they're there. They're watching cuz their shows off. Yeah, man. Someone's gonna comment and say the name of the show that I've watched every episode of.
I can't think of it right now.
Anyway guys watch this. Tell us what you like. Tell us what you don't like. And if you don't like it you give us a bad comment.
You were always meant to do that and I thought of it before I look to this notice down Yellowstone. Oh. There's three of them there they have 17 phones and 46 Gadgets and they can't tell me what yellow three people which is even more fun.
Wow. All right, they're fired.
Questions. Drop a comment. Send us an email. Listen point taken at gmail .com. Right here. This time on Instagram. Listen point taken. Shoot us a DM. Drop a comment on any one of the pictures. Hey Hunter, what about shirts?
We will get back to you. We will have your question on the podcast. Also, if you go to. Baptist Shirts. We got apparel but until next time. Deuces.
