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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James White.
And good afternoon good evening welcome to the last dividing line before the Christmas holiday. We won't be here next Tuesday. I Suppose we could you know record something and you know, but no no reason to this is this is live webcasting.
And we're not gonna be here. We're gonna be doing what you're supposed to be doing on Christmas Day Lord willing. I'll be getting ready. To partake of yet another scrumptious yummy Christmas turkey and a Christmas turkey dressing from from my my parents.
And I have no idea what you're saying, so I can't respond a. Scrumptious yummy. Oh, it's it's well. You've had it. I've had is it not scrumptious. Yummy. It is not is not my dad's turkey. The best the best is it is delicious.
It is absolutely delicious. Yes, but you can't say it's the best because you're married so I. Well there is that there is that yes, you might get a very careful of things like that so anyway. So last one up and so what kind of Christmassy topics do we have today?
Well, we've got some stuff from Catholic answers. And I've got I've got a really fascinating clip from Abu Amr yasir Qadhi on the role of Muhammad as an intercessor. How's that? In other words nothing overly Christmassy actually, I mean, I suppose I could have done this.
I was and the phone lines are open.
Five three three three four one.
What's wrong. Rich not into. Yasir Qadhi's great. He really. No seriously. He's probably the best Islamic Lecture I've ever heard. I've been listening to hours of his lectures. I've got one of his books sitting here.
Nice-looking book. Isn't it. Explanation of a critic a critical study of shirk. How many Christians do you know that read? Yasir Qadhi's work on a critical study of shirk. Well I am. I suppose I could have done this tape set that was sent to me.
It's from Calvary Chapel, Pasadena. It's Javier Reese is the speaker. And it's Calvinism revealing the rigid reality of tulip. The five points of Calvinism. And basically it's if you take Dave Hunt and You take out the Experience that Dave Hunt has in speaking and.
And then and then you sort of run the information through the telephone game where it's sort of passed around a few times. That's what you got man. It's that Bad. He was talking about RC spruill today.
I.
Mean it's really bad when your original sources haven't read sprawl. But by the time you get to the third fourth or fifth generation it gets really bad at that point. It really is and I was gonna. I was gonna play I was gonna play parts of it.
But I honestly felt that people would object to my doing so because you know I mean What was what was the terminology that they used when they first started throwing Steve Greg's name. Our direction was we were picking?
Picking the fruit off the lower branches. I think was the terminology that people we were we were picking the low-hanging fruit.
A low-hanging fruit need to get somebody who was able to dedicate full-time. Subject wasn't off doing foreign missions and all these other things dividing their time.
We needed a real scholar and theologian to take this issue on and that's why I took the time to download the mp3s. And by the way March 31st 2008 Twin Lakes Church Somewhere in Northern, California obviously we'll need to put together a little page or advertisement.
Hey, maybe we can have Micah since Mike is up that direction put together put that into the rotation of the soon coming new a o min org. It's right around the corner folks right around the corner. The new new website looks right there, and it's it's it's I've seen it.
It's right there. Honestly. It's it's just around the corner Studio audience participation today. Thank you very much. We're supposed to have a studio audience today, but they haven't shown up yet. So let's keep an eye out for him.
They'll show up later, but anyway, maybe we can have Micah do that, but the March 31st Twin Lakes Church up in Northern, California Steve Greg and I and we're talking like four hours here and they can video record the whole thing and so He's talking about doing it on his program Afterwards, I'm not sure what my schedule is right afterwards I've got to look at that to see if I'm Even could be around to be able to do that.
Maybe we could have them on our program, too maybe that's how we could break up some of the exegetical stuff, I don't know I suppose That wouldn't actually be a bad idea not you think about it is if you did the debate and then and we did follow-up afterwards You can especially do the audience questions that way and do much more of the in-depth exegetical stuff Between the dividing line his radio program.
I don't know. We'll figure it out. But for those of you who have been Expecting The the debate between myself and itself and Steve Greg. It'll be March 31st Twin Lakes Church up in Northern, California.
Obviously, we'll be putting information up about that and You also want to make sure to mark on your calendar that you will be listening to the dividing line on Well, look at that New Year's Day Maybe maybe we'll be New Year's Day.
I don't know. Do we I Don't know. It's is the is the big big big big big announcement big big enough to To come in on New Year's Day, or do we have to wait to the third? I Will have to think about that but either the first the third we're gonna have the big big big big big announcement and What's the big announcement about it's it's about the next uber major debate big big big debates that we are arranging and Conference and the whole nine yards and there's gonna be lots and lots lots of people involved and it's gonna be really cool and I'm really excited about it.
And But we can't tell anything about it yet. So this is called a tease or a teaser. This is where we get you excited about stuff before we actually tell you what it is. So that's coming up right at the beginning of the year.
We will be making that announcement. So that will be that will be taking place at that time. So I'll make sure to be listening in so What I did put together today was Earlier, I guess this would be yes.
Was this yesterday? Let's see. What's yeah, this was yesterday the first guest on Catholic answers live was John Martin Yoni now, I don't know. I'll be honest with you I'm a little surprised that they have him on be on.
I know we're gonna get all sorts of nasty emails. But he just doesn't strike me as being even up to Catholic answers standard level. And and they throw biblical stuff at him and I'm like biblical stuff.
Wow. Okay. All right. Well Okay, so they're gonna put out there. Maybe we can respond to it. So a the first question comes in happens to be relevant to the subject of the at least the next portion of my response to Steve Ray and that is the text of Revelation chapter 12 the woman who gives birth who has Gives birth to the Son who is Jesus the early church believed that was the church.
Later generations decide to add Mary to that now you can now I love the exegesis quote-unquote of many modern Roman Catholic Theologians and apologists is you can just find all sorts of it's it's the church and and it's Mary and it's this and it's that and it's all these things and and You know this this somehow becomes well, she's in heaven already so the assumptions taking place and she she has a body and and all this stuff is is read into this a Book that normally Roman Catholics leave to Hal Lindsey.
You know, but all of a sudden they they they grab hold of this one and you've got Revelation chapter 12 being Mary and all the rest of us, let's let's listen to the the phone call and Make some comments as we go along here.
And yes, you are more than welcome to call at eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one if you have some other subjects you'd like to raise as well.
Got you in Sugarland, Texas next. Hello there.
Hi John and Jerry Joe here, I wanted to about the assumption of Mary. What is the church? Teaching on that tradition. I know it's not in the in the Bible anywhere particularly. What is the tradition on that?
Okay. Well now that's not a tradition. That is a dogma. Okay. D-o-g-m-a. It has been defined as an infallible truth not merely a tradition. It is an infallible truth. And remember the words of Jerry medics who informed us that we have just as much of a warrant to believe in the Assumption of Mary as we have to believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Or let's turn that around. We have as much reason to believe in the resurrection as we have the assumption of Mary. Because both have been vouchsafed by the church. That is at least a consistent if not radically bad Epistemology right there.
Okay, well a couple different things here. Number one is on the assumption of Mary if you read. It's it's paragraph 966 in the Catechism. It talks about how into heavenly glory and some people say well does that mean she died or she didn't die?
No, and I there are two main lines of tradition.
Yeah, you know if the question is whether she died or didn't die there would be two main.
That I have seen and one is it was right at the moment of her death the heaven. It was rising. She's gone. I've seen another tradition. I got this Fascinating book that was really that's that's called the Virgin Mary and it contains a lot of things about Mary and Mary's life.
That are what we would call small tea traditions things that were taught as.
This is way back when kind of filling in the blanks for the very things that eventually create dogma a couple hundred years later. That's the problem once you deny us all scriptura, what's in Scripture.
And and.
One of the traditions that's in this book Again that you don't really find being taught anywhere in the church these days that might be indication of something. Was it Mary died? Just like Jesus was. They had sent out word that she was on folks that had known Mary all came back to Jerusalem and.
They must have used cell phones to spread this information around obviously. One of the Apostles, I don't know what you know what you're to say that they all flew in. Remember, I don't make this stuff up.
Remember that in in part that that that there were there were Indulgences given to people to go visit Mary's house or the Annunciation took place which was in Italy and they honestly believed that the angels had picked the house up from Israel and had flown it to Italy and so when you went and visited the house you got indulgences.
I am NOT making this stuff up. So don't even look at me that way. You didn't know that did you know? You did not know that now, you know that I'm talking to rich everybody else knew that. But anyway, which one?
I can't remember which one it was. Didn't make it in time and Mary died. They put her in the tomb and sealed the tomb and the Apostle got back three days later three days after death and And said hey, I I have to fear I have to see her body.
You know, I just have to see her one more time. And so they unsealed, you know, it's and this is from.
1850 now that this is more ancient than that, but it's nowhere near being Anything that would they would have any meaningful connection to this is about the same time period as Muhammad. Guys. Okay, now you get the connection that that you know that that distance of time away.
But here we have it being used on a Catholic apologetics program in 2007.
But it's certainly a.
Parallel thing just as the Immaculate Conception is a parallel thing and the bodily assumption and perpetual virginity and co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix. And you start seeing the point because she did not.
Ascend of her own power. She was assumed by his power. So so those are the two main lines of tradition I've seen in terms of her death. Now if you want to talk about scripture Yes, there is no particular scripture that says Mary was indeed assumed into heaven.
Now, isn't that is that odd way?
Yes, there is no scripture that says this. Why would you say? Yes, there is no scripture.
That's not even what the guy asked, but there's none that says she wasn't well.
There's none that says she didn't play NBA basketball too, but is that somehow relevant? No, it's not. And there's another standard form of argumentation, well it happened to other folks so it could happen to Mary.
Does I mean Steve Ray does the same thing? Jerry medics, they're forced to use this kind of argumentation. Well, you know God could do it and it's fitting that he should do it so he did do it and this is dogma and of course you could use that to substantiate and anything.
Absolutely positively anything. As Long as some church that thinks it's got the authority to do it can come along and say it and force people to believe It. You can substantiate any kind of argumentation.
Utilizing that kind of reasoning. It's just amazing.
So why not Mary. Plus we see in Revelation 12 the first few verses talks about this woman Who is in heaven and she has a head and feet. In other words? She has a body.
Well, that's awfully good. But she also gave birth to a child and she had child pains. Now pains are a part of the curse. Mary wasn't under the curse. Why'd she have pain and giving birth to the child if this is in fact Mary?
Well, that's when you get into the all the well, this is just an allegory and blah that's the part of the church, but the rest of it's about Mary and and the the wonderful Magical form of isogenesis that comes once you have an ultimate authority called Rome to tell you what you should find the Bible.
She's in heaven. So who is this woman. If you. If you read the rest of Revelation all the other folks they talk about in heaven. They're talking about the souls of people. But this woman has a body.
Yeah, so the dragon I'm not sure that's supposed to be. Even though that's not what the early church viewed it as why don't we hear that? Well.
Mother Angelica's show that Apostle was Thomas. Thomas. Okay. Yeah, poor guy. Always a day late. He came and doubting Thomas wanted to see the body and she wasn't there.
Thank you, John. Hey Joe before you go. I said Sugarland when I enter poor Thomas. I really feel sorry for Thomas.
I mean Thomas even got blamed, you know, Thomas get blank gets blamed for the gospel of Thomas Which of course he had nothing to do with and Thomas gets blamed for being Jesus twin brother by the talpiot tomb theorist guys and Poor Thomas.
I mean you doubt once.
Your reputations ruin the rest. Sugarland or Sugarland. Sugarland. Sugarland, okay. Well, yeah, I apologize to everyone there in what I'm sure is a beautiful area known as Sugarland, Texas. Thank you.
Thanks Joe. God bless. Have a blessed Christmas. One phone line open there as we stay in the Lone Star State. So we'll go to Sandra in San Antonio next. Hi there. Hi.
My name is Sandra. I'm calling from San Antonio, Texas and the question that I had This afternoon is Earlier when you were talking about the church and the Bible and the fact that the church witness was witness to the Bible.
When you say the church Is that the Catholic Church? that you're referring to.
Now the reason I continued on to this one is This is the constant practice of Roman Catholic apologists Roman Catholic theologians. They simply assume and Constantly repeat that the church of those early centuries is in some fashion Which they very rarely want to define very clearly but is in some fashion the Church of Rome and They play fast and loose with the term Catholic now Catholic Katahalas according to the whole the Universal Church is a term used very early on especially when there would be schisms there would be the Donatus controversy the innovation controversy all these types of things in the early church and the majority would be referred to as Katahalas according to the whole the Catholic Church and So they they just assume that because they use that term that they can get away with saying.
Oh, yes. It was it was a Catholic Church. We all saw this During the massive media explosion that surrounded the death of John Paul the second and While his health was failing those last few days. You had all these people appearing on Fox News and CNN and and they're talking about the 2 ,000 year history of the Catholic Church and blah blah blah blah blah blah and you know These are the same people who love to parrot John Henry Cardinal Newman and his statement to be to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant well, you know, it's it's.
It's real nice to you know, quote folks like that. And then though I think if you're going to you might want to be ready to give a meaningful response To why Newman for example opposed the the dogma of the infallibility of the Pope?
You might want to be prepared to answer for those things why he had to develop The development Hypothesis so as to in essence abandon the historical field of battle because he recognized you could not in a meaningful fashion inhabit the historical field of battle and establish such things as the the reign of the papacy in the early Centuries when there wasn't even a single bishop in Rome until about 141 45.
They had a plurality of elders there, which is the biblical model anyway, and so if you're gonna quote these things, you know it's it's real easy to to you know pop those things off and to to make that kind of a statement, but the reality is very very very different and I have so many times Challenged people on this this issue is look you want to say that the Church of Rome today is The the ancient Church of history, okay define the connection is it the same in regards to faith and belief?
Then you should be able to find me people in those very same early centuries of which you speak Who would believe what you believe about the dogmas of the faith? Are you gonna tell me that they didn't believe the dogmas you believe and that's because they hadn't yet been developed.
So they believed a different gospel than you believe. The dogmatic Central core elements of their faith is different than your faith. How that what's the meaningful sense in which this is the same church then is it say is it the same in name only?
It's certainly you you recognize that in all sorts of elements. It has changed I mean the the church of that the early century did not have seven sacraments as Rome has today. The concept of the infallibility of the Pope was not there the doctrine purgatory wasn't even develop Into any meaningful form for hundreds of years, so so what's what's the nature of this sameness?
What's the nature of this alleged? Unity over time that is the question that has to be asked and answered. But so often all you get is just the assumption and that's pretty much what we're gonna get here.
Oh, absolutely. In the Catholic Church the word Catholic whether I'll see your capital C means universal.
It and you can look at the teachings we've got doc. Yes. Capitalization has never really been known to completely affect the meaning.
It's from the early church fathers.
What does that mean. We have writings early church. Father. Well of course we do. So do we. So what I mean everybody has. Everyone possesses these writings. What does that mean? What is the essence of that assertion I?
Mean to make a meaningful argument unless all you want to do is impress a Narrow audience of already believers. If that's all you're trying to do okay, then this works. But if on a national radio program you're actually attempting to make a point in reference to the the essence of why your faith is superior to that of Others who would deny the assertions you're making you've got to give us something more.
You've got to give us something really to work with. There's there's really no doubt about that. I mean people can dispute it all they want but You have a lot of folk. It went into apostasy or when Constantine came along.
In the early team took over the church, and it went into apostasy so the Catholic Church was no more.
And you know so you're happy who says that is that some passing reference to? That couldn't be a passing reference to to the Da Vinci code. I have no idea where he's coming from on that. And by the way earlier in the program He had attempted to address art some arguments against old scriptura and he tried to substantiate the idea of the supremacy of the church to the Bible and In the process demonstrated that once again the the straw man argument was put forward that you have two extremes.
It's either you and your Bible alone under a tree without a knowledge Church history without being taught by anyone else. That's the Protestant view or that of the church and so on the the day of Pentecost Thousands were joined to the church and so since the church is there that must be the Roman Catholic Church.
And so there must have been popes and and prelates and bishops, and they were all meeting in Trent or something. I don't know, but you have the same kind of you know really shallow straw man argumentation.
Which again tells me who are these people trying to reach who are these people trying to be? Apologists to. Is it a is it the already convinced who want to remain convinced that is this sort of an inoculation against truth?
Or are they actually trying to seek to convince people who have some knowledge of these things that what they're saying is actually true.
Even non Catholics who will admit That the early church was indeed the Catholic Church, but then they won't admit our 20th century. So folks. They know it wasn't the Catholic Church at all. What I do is I say we'll pick up some folks pick up some of the early church fathers.
They're out there first century second century. And see if they aren't Catholic.
That exactly I say do the exact same thing do the exact same thing and. Make sure however to define what modern Rome has defined as dogma. What has she defined as dogma if you're gonna accept this idea that well.
You know. Hey as long as there's just some similarities, then everything is okay, and it's the same church.
No.
Let's look at dogma. You find me those people in the first two centuries Who believe what you must believe to be a faithful Roman Catholic about Mary. You show them to me you bring them to me? Irenaeus didn't.
Don't even don't even go there. I've read him I know what he says about Mary, and there's no way you can twist him. Into a person who believes the dogma is about Mary that you believe it doesn't exist.
They did those doctrines are unknown. Nobody during that time period not even it I mean the heretics were just starting to dream some of these things up at that point in time. So nobody believed as a dogmatic definition of the church what you believe about Mary.
Think about that. Do you hear me? Don't just immediately run off to try to find a way around it. Neither did they believe in the supremacy of the bishop of Rome as the infallibility of the church. Look at Cyprian in them in in the middle of the third century.
Look at what he believed that all Bishops sat upon the cathedral of Petri that they all sat upon the chair of Peter not just the bishop in Rome. Take a look at these things. Consider that no one had ever even used the word transubstantiation at this point.
Let alone would they have the philosophical baggage required to even make heads or tails out of it. So if you don't have the papacy you don't have Mary you don't have transubstantiation. You don't have celibate priests who are an altar Christus.
You don't have seven sacraments excuse me. But how do you say that's the Roman Catholic Church again? What what's the what's the what's the consistency? What's the basis here?
That's what I'd like to do what they write and what they teach and you'll see that indeed these folks are Catholic.
They talk about the bishops and wow they talk about the bishops. Yes, they did. They don't talk about the bishop of Rome being the head of church and. Of course bishop and elder and pastor are used interchangeably in the New Testament, so no problem there.
How does that demonstrate the unique elements? That are necessary to for the defining of the Roman Catholic Church.
That's the question about receiving Christ in the Eucharist.
Oh in that yeah, and you know what Eucharist? Oh is that is a Greek word that means? Thanksgiving. Where do we find that that has to be done by a sacramental priest who is an altar Christus? Where do we find that this involves?
Transubstantiation. Where do we find this involves the representation the singular sacrifice of Christ? And that it is a perpetuatory sacrifice, but can save no one and perfects. No one. Where do you find that in these writings?
Giving the Eucharist. Oh bread, you know the bread of the Eucharist and so on. They talk about prayers for the dead.
Prayers for the dead as in for refrigerium that is for their refreshment not for their removal from purgatory. We will continue with John Martin Joni and his comments on Catholic answers and yes some other topics right after our break.
What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult. Secularism. False prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.
He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.
It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate.
James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism. Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture.
The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen. But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org. Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned.
Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see. The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?
The charges are as follows. Prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross-dressing ignoring God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women.
Is a public crime occurring in your town. Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org. Hello, everyone. This is Rich Pierce in a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man-centered self-help program.
The need for a no-nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater. I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin. Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses.
Man is sinful and God is holy. That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior? We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well. Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
Thank you.
And welcome back to the dividing line the last dividing line before the Christmas holiday and I am joined in studio by by a voice that in many ways is Primarily remembered by most of our listeners for having said the word.
Alaska.
Alaska there it is. Well, I thought you do practice that every once in a while or just.
No, it's especially better after you've had about two hours of sleep the night before so you sound just wonderful. And that's about how much sleep you had last night, right? Yeah, we had some great connections coming from Tampa.
We stopped off and saw the beautiful city of Houston. Got to see some of their better hotel establishments there. I think the the room that we had that Continental put us up in was about I think it was.
They're renting it about $15 every hour. But it was wonderful.
Well, you know, it's funny when I flew back from a Nashville a couple weeks ago I had to fly southwest and they stopped in San Antonio. We had the worst Turbulence, you know the up-and-down turbulence coming in the San Antonio of any flight ever about it was like we were riding a rollercoaster.
It was the whoosh whoosh through those through those thunderstorms. It was so much fun. It truly was it was amazing but Michael Fallon's with it and We can't really tell you what we'd like to tell you today.
As I said the beginning of the program we have a big announcement to make on January 1st and one of the reasons we don't do this just simply to make people angry with us, but we do this because it's sort of silly to make an announcement and say and in a few weeks we'll Have information for you so you can go to website.
You know, the tough thing is is because we really want to make sure that everybody knows we're gonna make the announcement. We're not just trying to to play some sort of marketing ploy here or whatever.
But the the whole thing is is that we do have something that's great that we are lining up right now. The gentleman that we have spoken to has already agreed in principle to everything. It's just a question of my lawyer getting that contract to him and.
Making sure that we can tie this all up, but it will be Mike. You just gave something away. You said him we had some people guessing I was gonna be debating Paula White. I'm sorry, but she could she could.
Honestly we'd have to give her a half the amount of time that I do because she can she. She and Jerry. Maddix is the only human beings. I know who can talk without breathing.
But well, no you she does but she she takes one of those, you know, like every 20 seconds or so. But the interesting thing is is if you did debate her. Yes. Um, you would know that her her her. Message would have been preached two weeks prior.
Another Pentecostal so.
Well, I guess we can lame on views of viewpoints of guests on the dividing line or there's alone and not necessarily. So anyway, but yes, we we have a big announcement to make and obviously this is in reference to future conferences debates and The normally associated Activities that go there with and whenever Michael Fallon is around.
You sort of have a clue as to what some of those involve but we're looking forward to this and You you said that you said a big fella. So yeah, it's gonna. Are the Christmas lights bothering you there.
No, the Temu's lights. Yes are bothering me at this point. You know here sitting in the two Babylon's. It's no just kidding. I love Christmas, too. No, I think that one of the things that we really have to have tried to do over the past few years is a lot of folks Realize that there are a couple guys that are out there that are very public not just in any sort of critique of reformed theology but the authority of Scripture and.
That's about all I can say. Oh, yes, you just gave a lot away, right? Yeah, actually. So better stop, right?
Well, I think it's important though for us to remember that, you know, Alpha and Omega is an apologetics ministry. Hey, I think one of the things that we always want to do is make sure that we are on the cutting edge.
Would you say or write all on the the front of the battle lines to be able to? counter most of the arguments that are coming across and not just spend two years writing a book about it and So forth that James has always done a great job and rich of making sure that these things happen.
So we're just there to help assist to put them all in place and as usual We'll try to keep everything as usual extremely affordable. So that's very important to us and plus we have some other Bonuses, they're gonna be going along with it this year.
That could be very entertaining for everybody. Very entertaining indeed. Yes, and it's gotten both of us to.
Actually, yes, and I stop right there goddess. Yes. You have too much away the guy. Come on now.
Yeah, well, let's just say that we hope that we're half the men we are right now, that's right. That's so he don't get embarrassed. But yeah, it'll be a lot of fun.
It will be and I'm looking forward to making announcement. I'm hopefully you'll be able to. You'll be around to be able to join me on the phone at least right. Not around here, but you'll be.
I thought you're saying am I around? Yes, I am round and I hope to not be around by then but no. Yeah, we will definitely try to make sure that we're on the phone. You know, of course, one of the things that'll have to happen is that this person actually Contractually, right?
He's outside of just verbally agrees, right. And then we'll get going. We'll have a full year folks for you to get ready for this again. We want to make sure you have plenty of time. You know the thing that always happens James is that always we have great folks.
Especially for some reason it seems to be some of our pros people, but I call them pros people pros people. I'm sorry pros.
Yes, I remember this as you know as in prasapal again. Yes your unicle. Yes.
But no, no remember that. We will try to give you a year folks to prepare for this again. It's gonna be cheap cheap cheap. But it's gonna be a lot of great things more than we've ever done before This time around and have a lot of other great ministries joining.
That's true.
Yeah, that's that's definitely one of the ways in which this one's a lot different from what we've we've done in the past. So and that just means all the more work for you because I I mean I admit folks I I Could no more put together one of these things then then I can fly I It's not Part of my makeup to be able to do this kind of thing.
You got to have folks who like details and think ahead and make plans and and that's that's. That's why there's that's why there's Michael Fallon, right? Well, you know, we're gonna have a great time.
That's the main thing and and I think with everybody that they've realized at this point is just let all the stress go to me. And everybody else have a great time great ministry and so forth and had some fantastic meetings with some other folks Who'd be joining us this weekend and boy, I tell you it's it's just gonna be a lot of fun putting this one together.
I'm really looking forward to it. Excellent. Excellent. Anyway, let's get back to Catholicism. Oh, well, I wouldn't know why you'd be interested in that at all.
There's about five things that came across my mind. I realized it sort of jammed up by there all. You know, I just I didn't know which one to pick. Yes. Well you I was thinking you were gonna pick the well actually I'm.
That's what got us together wasn't it? That's that's the one of the five I assumed you were going to hope got us together. Well sort of in the sense of. If I hadn't been addressing Roman Catholicism, I don't know we ever would met would we?
Know well, it actually was a number of issues that you know, I was really and I'll go back to this I think when I first was introduced to Alpha and Omega ministries is That one of the things that that really impressed was impressed upon me was that here I found one fellow that was not going to characterize Roman Catholicism or built a straw man and then attack that straw man and so forth.
This was a gentleman who was going to at least represent Catholicism for what it is. And I don't think any of the debate opponents that he's had could ever accuse him of doing otherwise.
Well, or or if they do accuse me of doing otherwise, they can't really substantiate. Let's put it that way. It's not that they haven't they just have a hard time substantiate but you were looking for meaningful information in response to the claims of Roman Catholicism and We're struggling a little bit in finding real good solid information.
A lot of what you're finding was pretty pretty shallow.
Well, you either go on the woman rides the beast sort of thing. Yes. Or you would go on to the very liberal ecumenical side of things which everybody at the time that I had Received Christ and come out of Catholicism.
Everybody was doing the hand-holding thing and you know. Together with Catholics and so forth. So it was difficult to find someone who is actually balanced and scholarly in their opinions. But that being said we hope to hear from Mel Gibson's office here soon.
Hope he signs the contract.
But.
Thanks, Mike.
Anyway, I'll get off your radio show and let's go back to the already.
Well, I appreciate that and we do appreciate having Mike out here. He has family in the area and doesn't doesn't normally just fly out just simply for a five minute Appearance on the dividing line. But since he was here, we thought we'd let him say hello and and I'm sorry, but the the rumors concerning Mel Gibson are probably a bit Exaggerated at that particular point.
Oh good grief. All right. Let's go back to someone who definitely is not Mel Gibson. John Martin Yoni on Catholic answers from yesterday.
Sessions to a priest and so forth and so on again. Who?
How about how about some how about some references to these celibate sacramental priests in this time period. Who where? Are they saying what Rome is saying today? Are they using just priestly language?
So you assume that they're talking about priesthood? See this is what these folks get away with because no one ever challenges them on these things and The a number of them just simply will not expose themselves to being challenged on this level.
And then when you do they'll say oh, well, you know. Here's just one reference here and they and and they will do what they accuse us of doing and that is just proof-texting the early fathers if this was the Catholic Catechol as according to the whole the Catholic Church, then should it really have to depend upon obscure? unclear difficult references or Should it be very very clear and compelling?
I think it's obviously The latter.
Yeah, I mean I see I see Popes and I see celibate priests, you know all through the New Testament.
I mean, you know all sorts of you know, Luke 128. All you need is kakara to many. All you need is just simply one. You know Angelic greeting to Mary and you've got the entire Marian documents dogmas right there, right?
Oh Well, even the folks in the early church never dreamed of any of that disciples of the Apostles and the disciples of those disciples.
They were all Catholic.
Okay. Okay. Just want to just thank you for clearing that up. I appreciate that. Oh.
That that was not clarification. That was obfuscation there was nothing of substance there whatsoever and. That's one of the reasons we challenge these folks and you know folks today modern folks today.
Don't know what the situation was 20 years ago when we first started engaging the subject they they don't know. When I first started studying Roman Catholicism, I started listening to Jerry Matta ticks and Carl Keating and and Patrick Madrid and Mark Brumley, you know the the the late 80s early 90s very very early night 1990 a Catholic answers crew.
These folks were going around and they were they were debating Calvary Chapel pastors you know former Catholics who whose knowledge of Catholicism is very very shallow and. They they were publishing a tract I wish I still had I bet I do someplace.
Unfortunately, there's so many boxes that have to dig through that the amount of dust I'd have to fight I'm not sure it'd be worth it. But there was a track that Catholic answers put out that specifically Invited people that whenever they would hear a Quote-unquote anti-catholic whenever any Christian minister would speak against Catholicism in this tract.
They challenged the people to challenge those people to a debate. See if they would debate and Catholic answers would debate them. That is how aggressive they were in those early years.
And.
I remind folks that every time you hear a Patrick Madrid or Catholic answers these folks talking about how I'm a Debate junkie as if I'm the person that's just just desperate to debate. The first challenge I received to do a public debate Was a phone call from Jerry Matitix in the headquarters of Catholic answers in San Diego.
They arranged the first three debates that we did. They're the ones who challenged me not vice versa. My book the fatal flaw had come out and as soon as they saw that ah, let's go get him and Even then when Jerry Matitix debated me.
He admitted later that he had not actually read the fatal flaw. And in fact, he attributed positions and misunderstandings to me during the course of the debate. That clearly are not a part of that text and he admitted in phone calls later that that was the case.
And he even said that he would apologize publicly for that misrepresentation as well, so You know things have changed a lot over the past 20 years and I would like to think actually almost Well that our first debate was 1990.
So it's been 17 years. Eight coming up on 18 years. I would like to think that we had a lot to do with the change in perspective of Catholic answers from being a aggressive Debating organization to where now well, that's just not what they do.
They are much more careful about the individuals they engage. Because well things haven't gone well for them. Just look at some of the debates that have taken place over that period of time. So There's some of what happened yesterday on Catholic answers live now very very quickly.
Let me shift gears. I don't see any phone calls. So I'm gonna shift gears here very quickly. I did mention. And I was being quite serious. I have been listening a great deal to lectures by Abu Amr Yasser Khadi.
He is a Yale Doctoral student he is he was born of Pakistani parents in Texas. He is. He's he's brilliant. I mean I have listened to a lot of Islamic Presentations and let's face it. Sometimes it's just not overly exciting.
Yasser Khadi is an excellent speaker. His Arabic is very very clear when he uses Arabic. His English is very good. I was just listening to him. Bemoaning the fact that I was riding a couple days ago and he says Ours is the only world civilization where we teach our children to read in a language.
They can not understand he says could you imagine any Frenchman teaching his children to read French? But they don't teach them what the French means. We teach people to read Arabic and then we don't tell them what the Arabic means.
This is ridiculous. He talks about using the mind and thinking. I would love If anyone who arranges debates is listening to this, I would love to debate Yasser Khadi, I think these would be the best debates because unfortunately every time I've heard him address Christianity he's primarily addressed the Roman Catholic version thereof.
That seems to be primarily what he Is familiar with but Yasser Khadi is great. So anyway here the reason I want to play us. I'm not even sure if I could get it in here. But the what I am hearing as I'm listening to these things.
Islam does have a replacement for Jesus. Islam does have a replacement for Jesus. Muhammad does take over many of the functions of Jesus here the function of Mediation listen to Yasser Khadi. He is speaking to Muslims.
He's teaching class to Muslims on the subject of Muhammad and Specifically here the concept of intercession by Muhammad, but going back to our topic now the fourth evidence.
We will talk about is they're saying that The Shafa 'a or the intercession is true and that the intercession has been given to the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam Therefore I am asking the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam for something that he has been given by Allah When I asked the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam this is something that Allah has given him now.
Let me explain what he's saying. He's talking about the concept of intercession that he says it is true that Muhammad will make Intercession and he's talking about he's talking about various forms of shirk.
He has a a lengthy lecture series I've listened to on and not analyzing shirk and that was lecture series that was the basis of his book a critical study of shirk. That I have here in my hand from al-hidayah publishing and distribution in in England and he's talking about how various Muslims commit shirk that is idolatry and Here specifically prayers directly to Muhammad and things like that, but listen to what he says about Muhammad.
Allah has given the Shafa 'a. Do you deny the Shafa 'a? No, of course not. Therefore, why can't I ask the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam for Shafa 'a?
Shafa 'a, that is intercession. How do we refute this evidence?
You understand the Shafa 'a, the intercession on the Day of Judgment. The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam will intercede on behalf of his ummah on the Day of Judgment. Therefore he is saying Allah has given him the Shafa 'a.
Why can't I ask him for the Shafa 'a?
He just said that Muhammad will intercede for his ummah, his community on the day of intercession. Who can respond to this Shafa 'a?
One of the ways you can refute that is by saying that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is not with us anymore. He has now gone to the life of the Barzakh and that is a separate life. We don't have a direct contact with him anymore.
Now, let me let me just some people don't understand. So let me explain this. I may have to come back to this on the next program. This is from his book. This is the the the Hadith the tradition About Muhammad at the Day of Judgment.
Listen to this. This is very important. I might be able to get this all read before we run out of time. Listen to this. The Prophet stated I am the leader of mankind on the Day of Judgment. And do you know how that this is the case?
Allah will gather all of mankind from the first of them to the last of them on one plane and the Sun will come close to them so much so that the people will be afflicted with grief and pain and Sufferings that they cannot they cannot bear.
So some of the people will say to others. Do you not see what situation you are in. Do you not see what has occurred? Why do you not find people who will intercede on your behalf with your Lord? So some of the them will say to others.
Let us go to Adam. They will go to Adam and say Oh Adam. You are the father of mankind. Allah create you with his own hands and blew into you his spirit and command the angels to prostrate. To you intercede on our behalf with Allah for you.
Do not see for do you not see the situation we are in so Adam will respond. My Lord has become angry today and anger that he has never had before nor will he ever have again. And he prohibited me from the tree, but I disobeyed him.
I am only worried about myself myself go to someone else besides me go to no to no that is to Noah. So they will go to no and say oh no. You are the first of the messengers that were sent to earth and Allah has described you as a thankful servant.
Do you not see the situation we are in so he will respond? My Lord has become angry today and anger that he has never had before nor will he ever have again. And I had one request that I already used when I prayed against my people that Allah destroy them.
I am only worried about myself myself. Go to Ibrahim. That is to Abraham. So they will go to Ibrahim and say you are and say you are the prophet of Allah and his chosen friend amongst the creation. Intercede with Allah on our behalf.
Do you not see the situation? We are in but if Ibrahim will say my Lord has become angry today and anger He has never had before nor will he ever have again. And he will remember the lies that he said and say.
I am only worried about myself myself. Go to someone else. Go to Musa that is to Moses. So they will go to Musa and say Oh Musa. You are the messenger of Allah. Allah favored you with his prophethood and his speaking directly to you.
Intercede on our behalf with Allah. Do you not see the situation? We are in but Musa will respond. My Lord has become angry today and anger that he has never had before nor will he have ever. Again, and verily I killed a person whom I had not been commanded to kill.
I am only worried about myself myself. Go to Isa that is to Jesus. So they will go to Isa and say Oh Isa. You are the messenger of Allah you spoke to the people while you were still in the cradle. You are the word of Allah that he gave to Mariam and a spirit proceeding from him.
Intercede for us with our Lord. For do you not see the situation? We are in but he saw will respond. My Lord has become angry today and anger that he has never had before nor will he ever have again. And he will not mention any sin, but will say I am only worried about myself myself.
Go to Muhammad so they will come to me and say Oh Muhammad. You are the messenger of Allah and the seal of the prophets. Allah has forgiven all of your sins. Do you not see the situation? We are in intercede for us with our Lord.
So I will proceed to the throne of Allah and will fall down in prostration in front of my Lord. Then Allah will inspire me and reveal to me words of praise to him and his glorification. Which no one before was ever given.
It will then be said to me Oh Muhammad raise your head ask and you shall be given intercede and your intercession shall be Accepted. And then I read this this same story the version that's found in all the khadi and in al-bukhari at the end Muhammad is able to deliver the faithful Muslims from Jannah from from from the fire of hell and deliver them to Jenin into the place of paradise and That is how the Day of Judgment is going to take place.
Notice. Again, Jesus is just one of the prophets now in this version. It said he will not make mention of any sin. Why. Because the sinlessness of Jesus, but who does the intercession? Who is the one who has the power?
Yes, our khadi will talk later about the fact that one of the questions that's asked of him is how does Muhammad know? When do I when a when a Request has been made In his name, and he says the angels bring it to him.
So they're trying to they're trying to maintain monotheism. They can't have a trinitarian ism or binitarian ism but the person of Muhammad Takes the place of Jesus in Islamic worship really does so much so that think about it.
I was talking to an Islamic friend of mine says in Islamic countries. You will hear people swear all the time. They will they will use the name of Allah and and and it's so customary that people don't even give it a second thought.
But look what happens when a British middle-aged schoolteacher allows her Muslim students to name a teddy bear Muhammad there were people gathered outside of her her place of Imprisonment and what did they want to do?
They wanted to kill her. They wanted her life to be over with. Don't tell me that Muhammad doesn't have that place. Of course, we're many were. It is so obvious and is so clear. That that is the case.
I'm sort of wondering a little bit about the timing here because we're a little bit behind on things here but anyways, I was that's what's called stretching in the The world of big league webcasting which didn't know if there is a big league of webcasting.
Anyway, hey our studio audience finally arrived right as we're finishing the program. Hi Eddie. How you doing? No applause or anything like that. We need to you know, be professional here, but thanks for listening to the violin line.
We'll be back again. Not next Tuesday, but on Thursday of next week. See you then.
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