LDS Spin: Eternal Progression

Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us. You have to give this answer with gentleness and reverence.

Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with Dr.

White, you can call now by dialing 602 -274 -1360. That's 602 -274 -1360, or if you're out of the

Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1 -888 -550 -1360. That's 1 -888 -550 -1360.

And now, with today's topic, here's James White. Well, they say they have 600 ,000 lights out there this year.

I don't know. I've never been out there during Christmas, to be perfectly honest with you. I'm speaking of the LDS Temple, the

Arizona Temple out there in Mesa, Arizona. And last night, they had their opening ceremonies, as I understand it, and now thousands of people are flocking onto the temple grounds to see all the lights hung from the trees and in various sundry other places, and I'm sure it's quite pretty.

The problem is, what are the lights hiding? Well, that's what we're talking about today on the

Dividing Line. And last week, we started looking at the subject of how false religions can present such a pretty front.

They can present such a pleasant appearance when you first begin to look at them, and of course, they've learned.

They've learned from Madison Avenue. They've learned from the advertising gurus out there that if you want to bring people into a particular place, whether it be a store or a religion, you need to give them what they're looking for.

You need to give them something that they like or makes them feel good. And so, various sundry false religions are very, very intent upon providing to the quote -unquote seeker, and I don't think it's an issue of a seeker in the sense of someone who's seeking after God, but seeking after the benefits of God without the responsibilities of dealing with God.

But they want to provide to people something to make them feel good, something that will cause them to become a part of their group.

And so, last week, we looked at the fact that Roman Catholic apologists, well, they like to talk about things like even purgatory, doctrines that were normally very much repulsive to those outside of their own communion, and sort of prop up purgatory as something that's much nicer than we thought it actually was.

Well, last week, I was going to talk about our subject this week, but I somewhat waxed a little bit long last week when we began talking about indulgences and purgatory and things like that.

Had some good calls. So this week, we turn our attention to the LDS Church.

And if you go out to Mesa, if you go out there during the Christmas season, you will see the 600 ,000 lights that they've hung there.

And of course, if you want, you can take a tour of the Visitor's Center and some very, very nice people, frequently sort of grandma and grandpa style folks.

Some very, very nice people will greet you, and maybe some young folks that are clean and moral and nice will greet you.

And you're not going to see much while you're visiting the temple grounds that would tell you that what is believed by the

LDS Church is significantly different than what is believed by the vast majority of those who are coming onto the grounds who are

Protestant Christians. Well, there's a purpose for that. There's a reason for that, and that is

Mormonism is very much involved right now in making itself look as mainstream as possible while struggling to maintain its very unique identity.

The result of this has been that there are two sides to Mormonism, two faces to Mormonism.

The face that you see on television, the face that you see in the representatives of the church, the face that you see when you attend the various functions of the

LDS Church, whether it be the Christmas lights out at the temple, or whether it be the Easter pageant coming up in a shockingly small number of months, when you think about it, an

Easter pageant that we attend every year to pass out tracts and witness to people. When you go to those events, you're not going to see the inside of Mormonism.

You're not going to see the theology of Mormonism. You're going to be given something that is much more palatable to you.

And yet, when you start digging into the documentation of Mormonism, into their own documents, what they teach their own people, you get a very different story.

And my friends, that shouldn't be. In fact, if you get a different story on the inside of religion than you get on the outside of religion,

I would suggest to you that you're looking at a cult. Because Mormonism is well known for its secrecy.

Not only are its temple ceremonies considered sacred, they are considered secret. And, interestingly enough,

I mentioned to you just a number of weeks ago the fact that a lawsuit has been filed against the

Utah Lighthouse Ministries, Gerald and Sandra Tanner, because they placed a section of a copyrighted internal manual, a manual for bishops in the church, a manual of how you're to appoint people to various positions, how you're to handle—and this was the part that they were quoting—how you're to handle removing people's names from the church rolls.

Many former Mormons, individuals who have discovered what Mormonism is really all about and have come to know Christ as their

Savior and desire to have their names removed from the rolls of the church, can find it to be a very frustrating experience.

Mormonism has a large hierarchy and many processes through which you must go.

And so the Tanners posted a segment of this manual on their website to help people who want to remove their names from the rolls of the church.

Well, now they're getting sued for having done that, and the material is available elsewhere on the internet, but for some reason,

I guess because the Tanners are the Tanners, and the you can't tell where the government starts and the church ends.

In Utah, there's no two ways about that. In fact, I just noticed this past week that the

ACLU has filed suit against the church because the church bought Main Street in Salt Lake City and are going to be creating a park -type situation right next to Temple Square, so on and so forth.

Anyways, since they're in Utah, maybe that's why that's taking place. The other people even in the

United States that have posted the material, no one's bothering them, or at least not yet. But anyways,

Mormonism has its secret side, and for some reason, here's an example of something where I would think that no religious group would really want to avoid having people know how to remove their names from the rolls of the church.

I would think that if someone came to a church and said, you know what, I do not want to be associated with you anymore, that the process of having one's name removed should be not only fairly simple, but readily known to everyone.

But this is just one of the many examples. We have the first presidency's vault that remains locked, and there are all sorts of documents in there that if they were to be released would rock the very foundations of the

Mormon church, but Mormonism has its secret side. And so there's these two elements to Mormonism.

You have the outward face, and then you have what is taught within the church. A number of years ago, a book came out you've heard us talk about before entitled,

How Wide the Divide, A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation. Craig Blumberg from Denver Seminary and Stephen Robinson from Brigham Young University wrote it.

This was in 1997. I wrote the response to it, or the review of it, for the

CRI Journal, which is available, I believe, online right now if you wanted to read my comments on the entire book.

Equip .org, if I recall correctly, I would imagine that all of the journals up through 97 are available.

But just to give you an example, similar to what we did last week, we talked about how

Roman Catholic apologists would present a particular doctrine in a way that sounds good to Christians. Well, listen as Stephen Robinson, who is one of the leading scholars and apologists for presents the doctrine of deification in a conversation with an evangelical.

This is how Mormonism wants to present this to evangelicals. Why? So that it can be more acceptable to us.

Here's what it says. This is page 80, if you happen to have the book. In the matter of deification,

Latter -day Saints believe that God intends through the gospel of Jesus Christ to transform those who are saved by Christ to be like Christ.

Moreover, we believe that God will succeed in what God intends. Since Latter -day Saints take seriously, and literally, the scriptural language about becoming the children of God, Romans 8, 16, it makes sense to us that children will grow up to be like their father.

According to scripture, God is the father of spirits, Hebrews 12, 9. We are his offspring,

Acts 17, 29, and offspring grow up to be what their parents are. Certainly through the atonement of Christ, we have been begotten sons and daughters of God, 1

Peter 1, 13. We partake of his divine nature, 2 Peter 1, 4, and we have been designated heirs to all he has,

Romans 8, 15 -17, Revelation 21, 7, which is all that the father has, John 3, 35.

Latter -day Saints might again be charged here with taking language of scripture too literally, but the doctrine is scriptural, and the same passages of scripture have led many others in the history of the

Christian tradition to conclusions similar to those of Latter -day Saints. For example, long before Joseph Smith, Clement of Alexandria, around 150 -215, could state that those who are perfected through the gospel of Christ, quote, are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first installed in their places by the

Savior, end quote. It could, of course, be argued that Latter -day Saints have misinterpreted the evidence from New Testament and the early

Christian church, in this case, but that is merely to stipulate that we disagree over how to interpret what is in fact

New Testament and early Christian evidence, and in that case, deification ought not to be considered some pagan idea that the

Latter -day Saints have invented and imposed on the text, but as a biblical doctrine that may be and has been understood variously by different groups.

After all, when Christ appears, the sons and daughters of God will be like him, 1 John 3 -2, changed in the same image from glory to glory, 2

Corinthians 3 -18. We receive his glory, John 17 -22 -23, and sit on his throne,

Revelation 3 -21. We become joint heirs with Christ to all that the Father has, Romans 8 -15 -17,

Revelation 21 -7, 1 Corinthians 3 -22, and we partake of his divine nature, 2 Peter 1 -4.

What could it possibly mean to partake of the divine nature if the divine nature is not extended to us and does not become part of us?

To Latter -day Saints, the glorified and resurrected Christ illustrates in his person what the saved can become through his grace.

For us, the logic of the scriptures is inescapable. One, Jesus Christ is divine, and two, through the atonement and the grace of Christ, the saved become one with Christ, become like him, 1

John 3 -2, and receive his image and glory, John 17 -21 -23, 2 Corinthians 3 -18.

Therefore, three, through the atonement of Christ, the saved become in some sense divine. If A equals

B and B equals C, how shall one resist concluding that A equals C?

Well, how would you respond to such a presentation? Most evangelicals have never heard any type of presentation of the concept of deification in those terms.

Most would not know who Clement of Alexandria was, and the number of verses cited would be enough to cause most people to find some way of ending the conversation fairly quickly.

It sounds so biblical. It sounds as if it truly is a biblical doctrine.

Well, this is one of the main reasons that we so strongly emphasize the need to memorize scripture and to know your faith so that you can interpret scripture within its own context.

Those of you listening closely notice that in actuality, a couple of verses were cited two or three times.

It sounded like there were many Bible passages being cited, but in reality, there was only a very small handful being cited.

Some of them cited repetitively, and in each instance, what was missing in the application made by this

Brigham Young University professor is the fact that the entirety of scripture testifies to the uniqueness of God, to the uniqueness of the divine nature, and the fact that these passages could not begin to be understood in their original context as teaching that we can become what

God himself is, is somehow missed in the presentation that Dr.

Robinson presents. But our point in quoting it is not so much to critique Robinson and his misuse of biblical passages, but to simply point out that when speaking to evangelicals,

Mormons today are being very quick to make the assertion that theirs is a biblical faith.

Now, any Mormon who remembers Mormonism 50 years ago has to recognize that this is definitely a development.

It was not all that long ago that, for example, LeGrand Richards could write the book,

A Marvelous Work and a Wonder. And anyone who's read that book, and it used to be a book that was given for free to every missionary before his mission and is still available for a laughingly low price,

LeGrand Richards over and over and over and over again in discussing all the unique doctrines of Mormonism says,

Joseph Smith did not learn this from reading the Bible. No, this was a part of revelation given to Joseph Smith.

It was not that long ago that Mormons recognized the foundational and fundamental chasm that existed between themselves and the

Christian faith and were not seeking to bridge it. Now, as Mormonism has become more of a worldwide religion, that has changed.

And now the approach changes. So what do the Mormons say within the walls of the

Mormon Church? When Mormons speak to Mormons, when the Mormon Church speaks to its people and teaches them, what does the

Mormon Church say to them? Well, that's what we're going to take a look at. But first, I'm reminded that the phone lines are open at 602 -274 -1360, 602 -274 -1360.

Or if you're outside the Phoenix dialing area, perhaps you're listening on the internet today, 1 -888 -550 -1360, 1 -888 -550 -1360.

Do not be one of those people who waits until we have only five minutes left and gets the high speed

FedEx man response to your question. If you call early, you get the nice, slow speed, understandable response to your question.

So give us a call, get online, 602 -274 -1360 or 1 -888 -550 -1360.

I hold in my hands a publication of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

Saints entitled Achieving a Celestial Marriage. Achieving a

Celestial Marriage. This is the student manual, the Temple Preparation Manual. The Mormon Church, to their credit anyways, has temple preparation classes and they also have preparation classes for a temple marriage.

And as a part of the studies that you would do for a temple marriage, you would receive this manual and the very first page that you would read outside of the introduction to what the manual is, says, and this is page four,

Celestial Marriage, Key to Man's Destiny. The first italicized title says,

God was once a man who by obedience advanced to his present state of perfection. Through obedience and celestial marriage, we may progress to the point where we become like God.

And by the way, you could go down to the LDS bookstore today and you could pick this up. The last copyright is 1992 by the

Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. All rights reserved. Printed in the

United States of America. So this is not something that's from the 1800s. This isn't ancient

Mormonism. It's no longer relevant. And this is available right now at your LDS bookstore.

Let me read. Proclaiming the divine potential within man, John Taylor once wrote, knowest thou not that thou art a spark of deity, struck from the fire of his eternal blaze and brought forth in the midst of everlasting burnings?

Elder B .H. Roberts stated, man has descended from God. In fact, he is the same race as the gods.

His descent has not been from a lower form of life, but from the highest form of life. In other words, man is, in the most literal sense, a child of God.

This is not only true of the spirit of man, but of his body also. Can you see the implications of these two statements as they relate to you and to your eternal destiny?

Elder James E. Talmadge did. He declared, in his mortal condition, man is God in embryo.

However, any individual, now a mortal being, may attain to the rank and sanctity of godship.

How is this possible? What course of action will bring this potential into fruition? As you study this lesson, look for the answers to these questions.

What does the lesson say? Well, it starts off, points to ponder. God became

God by obedience to law. That's how God came to be God in Mormonism.

You didn't quite hear that in Dr. Robinson's presentation, as you may recall, because no one would even pretend to attempt to say that the

Bible presents the idea that God became a god by obedience to law. The idea that law pre -exists

God is a pagan concept. It has nothing to do whatsoever with Christianity.

There is nothing in the Bible that even begins to suggest such a thing. And so when you're presenting

Mormonism, you want to make it sound good. You're not going to be this open. You're not going to be this clear in saying

God became God by obedience to law. But when you're talking to your own people and you're preparing them for activities in your own temples, then, then we are very straightforward.

I read, page four. It was late afternoon as we sat in my office, but I felt the time had been well spent.

He sat silently now, obviously contemplating the ramifications of the things we had been discussing.

We had talked of God and how he became God and of what that meant in terms of our own exaltation.

Finally, he spoke. What is this law of exaltation of which you keep speaking? Well, it involves the whole, the gospel law.

Everything required of us by God is associated with this law. But the major crowning point of the law, which man must obey is eternal marriage.

Therein lies the keys of eternal life, or as the Doctrine and Covenants puts it, eternal lives.

In other words, an eternal increase of posterity. I break from the quote just for a moment so that you don't miss what was just said.

Perhaps a truck just drove by you in your car. Perhaps the child just interrupted you. But you need to understand, the

Mormons, when they speak of eternal life, then re -translate that into the phrase eternal lives.

In other words, an eternal increase of posterity. In Mormonism, the power of God is associated with the power of the priesthood and procreation.

Again, something so utterly foreign to the Christian faith that to present it as if it were would immediately alienate the audience you're seeking to address.

And so, that isn't exactly addressed very often. I continue my reading. Then what you're saying is that God became

God by obedience to the gospel program, which culminates in eternal marriage.

Subtitle, through obedience to law, we can become like our father in heaven. The conversation continues and I continue my quote.

Do you realize the implications of this doctrine as far as you are concerned? I think so.

If God became God by obedience to all the gospel law, with the crowning point being the celestial law of marriage, then that's the only way

I can become a God. Right. And it is the law that assists us in reaching that potential.

It tells us what we must do to gain the ultimate freedom. In fact, it is by obedience to the law that we have progressed to our present position.

You mean we have always been governed by law? Always. You are an eternal being.

You were never created and you cannot be destroyed, but you can advance, progress, and develop by obedience to law.

Then Hamlet's question, to be or not to be, is not the right question. Right. Not in the ultimate sense, at least.

Order means law, and that law is the law of the celestial kingdom. Any who come unto that kingdom must obey that law.

But I thought God had meant freedom. If I have to do things to become God, am

I really free? You've got it wrong. It was the Savior who said, if ye continue in my word, that is, obey the law, you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

So by obedience to law, we learn truths by which we become not free.

Let's try it again. We learn truths by which we become free, but not free from the law.

Can you see that? I think so. I can be a God only if I act like God.

Exactly right. Can you imagine the state of the universe if imperfect gods were allowed to spawn their imperfections throughout space?

If beings who did not have law under their subjection were free to create worlds? I guess that would be pretty disastrous.

But I'm not sure I see why celestial marriage becomes the crowning apex of this progression. Marriage doesn't seem directly related to the creation of the universes.

I break from my quote from just a moment. Please notice creation of the universes. Not universe, but universes.

Many Christians get confused when a Mormon will say, there's only one God for this universe. We're a monotheist.

Well, that's because Mormons have more than one universe. Here in their own books, which they amongst themselves, the creation of the universes.

Plural. It's an oxymoron, by the way, but that's the way it works. I continue with my quote. Oh, but don't be limited by your mortal perspective.

God himself has declared his own reasons for existing. Remember he said, for this is my work and my glory.

I see his purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Moses 139.

Which involves giving birth to spirit children, saying them on the road to exaltation. And if that is to be done, you must have an exalted man and an exalted woman.

Exactly. An exalted man and woman who have been joined together in an eternal marriage. If this man and woman were obedient to all gospel laws, except celestial marriage.

What would be the result? They could still not be gods. Now I understand.

Celestial marriage is the crowning ordinance of the gospel. Right. I said with a smile. And with that comment,

I think we can end the discussion. End quote. Pages four and five of Achieving a

Celestial Marriage. Student manual published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints.

There was a lot in there that for some reason wasn't in Dr. Robinson's presentation.

There's a lot in there that you won't find openly discussed by Dr. Peterson and Dr.

Ricks in their book, Offenders for a Word. When the Mormon missionary comes to your door, they're not going to be carrying this manual with them and quoting from it.

No, those things aren't going to be presented. And when the Mormon prophet last, oh, a couple years ago, right after Gordon B.

Hinckley became prophet of the Mormon church, a man who had spent many, many years in the

LDS church in public relations, goes on Larry King, or he does interviews with Time or Newsweek or whatever else it might be.

Oh, how he is so very, very careful in his words. And how easy it is for him to say, oh, we really don't know much about that stuff.

You know, the stuff about men becoming gods. We don't know a lot about that stuff. Yet, you know that Gordon B.

Hinckley has read this manual. He knows that this manual speaks the way that it does here.

Speaks of men not being created and not being able to be destroyed. Looking for the ultimate freedom.

Folks, what is that? Did you hear what was said in those words? What you have in what

I just read to you from this particular publication is the very lie of Satan himself.

You see, Satan, in everything that he does, attempts to get man to believe that he can be free from God.

Free from being a creature. Free from being the potter who was created by the hand of the potter.

It is the very essence of sin for man to pervert the creator -creation distinction.

And to get away from the fact that he is created and he has a creator.

And Mormonism does that because, you see, Mormonism has no creator. If God was once a man who became a god by obedience to the law, then

Mormonism has no creator God. And so the ultimate freedom that is being offered is freedom from being a creature.

Because God and man are of the same species, you see, as we quoted earlier. This is not

Christianity. At its most fundamental basic level, it bears no resemblance to Christianity.

Because the most fundamental truth of Christianity is that God is the only true God. God has eternally been

God and God is the creator of all things. That's why God can say what is right and what is wrong.

Not because the law pre -exists him, but because he is the source of all things. Do you think

Gordon Hinckley knows what's in here? You better believe he does. 602 -274 -1360, 1 -888 -550 -1360.

We're going to take a break. If you'd like to comment on our topic today, please give us a ring and do so.

We'll be right back. And welcome back to The Valuing Line.

My name is James White and we are talking about the subject of Mormonism today, or at least the representation of Mormonism and their own publications.

And in their public presentations later on in this very same bit of material, there is an entire section, if anyone picks this up, there's a section of white pages, then blue pages.

And right after the blue pages, we have a section, Celestial Marriage, Key to Exaltation.

Let me just read you some of these subtitles here. God was once a mortal man.

Now the Mormon missionaries, when they walk into your home, are not going to tell you that unless you pry it out of them.

And in fact, sadly, we've talked to a few folks who actually didn't know that, even as Mormon missionaries.

Now you might say, well, they knew that, but they just wouldn't say it. I think these guys actually were completely clueless on the particular subject.

God was once a mortal man. Subtitle, that is, he lived on an earth like our own.

And, second subtitle, he experienced conditions similar to our own and advanced step by step.

Next subtitle, God is now an exalted man with powers of eternal increase.

Now when was the last time you heard a Mormon missionary talk about God having powers of eternal increase?

Well, you're not going to hear it. You didn't hear that in Dr. Robinson's presentation either. The subtitle there is,

Our Father in Heaven lives in an exalted marriage relationship. Let me read the quote they give you here.

No matter to what heights God has attained or may attain, he does not stand alone. For side by side with him in all her glory, a glory like unto his stands a companion, the mother of his children.

Mother is capitalized. For as we have a father in heaven, so also we have a mother there, a glorified, exalted, ennobled mother.

That's Melvin J. Ballard, as quoted in Bryant S. Hinckley, Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, pages 205 -206.

And I only mention the irony of this. And that is, there are

LDS apologists out there who are constantly beating upon my head and shoulders for quoting anything in representing

Mormon theology except the Standard Works, the LDS Church. How dare you quote anything other than what is found in the

Standard Works of the Mormon Church. And yet, the Mormon Church, in instructing its own people in its own theology, can quote from sources such as Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J.

Ballard, pages 205 -206. And I don't get the idea. I don't get the idea at all that anyone raises any bit of complaint.

In fact, right above that, when we read the subtitle that says he experienced conditions similar to our own and advanced step by step, we have this quotation.

Notice what it's from. Remember that God, our Heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child and mortal like we ourselves and rose step by step in the scale of progress in the school of advancement, has moved forward and overcome until he has arrived at the point where he now is.

Is this really possible? Why, my dear friends, how would you like to be governed by a ruler who had not been through all the vicissitudes of life that are common to mortals?

If he had not suffered, how could he sympathize with the distress of others? If he himself had not endured the same, how could he sympathize and be touched with the feelings of our infirmities?

He could not unless he himself had passed through the same ordeal and overcome step by step.

Now, where's that from? That's Orson Hyde in the Journal of Discourses, volume 1, page 123.

And one thing I've learned of late is that if you dare to quote anything from the Journal of Discourses, LDS apologists will go postal.

They will go ballistic. How dare you quote the Journal of Discourses? We don't know how accurate those things are.

Oh, shame on you. You're misrepresenting us. You're an anti -Mormon. You're terrible and horrible. But I doubt any of them have written any letters to the

Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter -day Saints, the President of the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter -day Saints, and complained.

How dare you misrepresent us in our own materials by quoting from the Journal of Discourses? So, anyways, we have this assertion that our

Father in Heaven lives in an exalted marriage relationship and, next subtitle, we are literal children of God, part of his family unit.

And this quotation comes from Bruce R. McConkie, Households of Faith in the

Ensign Magazine, April of 1971. How dare they quote Bruce R. McConkie?

Bruce R. McConkie is the single LDS apostle that modern Mormons like to disrespect most.

If you go with us to Salt Lake City, stand outside the temple gates, quote Bruce R.

McConkie, and duck! I mean, I remember trying to pass a tract out to the man back before he died, back in the 1980s, and boy, after he's gone, every missionary, green missionary straight out of the

Missionary Training Center, somehow knows more than Apostle Bruce R. McConkie ever knew. You quote Bruce R.

McConkie and you're automatically proving yourself to be a terrible, horrible, nasty person. Well, for some strange reason, the

LDS Church doesn't mind quoting him, and here's what he said, we are the children of God, our Heavenly Father. We are members of his family.

We are his spirit offspring. We were born in the premortal life as spirit beings, sons and daughters of a glorified perfected, exalted being.

This holy being himself lives in the family unit. He has a fullness of glory and power and might and dominion.

We are the literal offspring of the most glorious personage of whom it is possible to conceive. He is

God Almighty, our Heavenly Father. The next subtitle says, we lived with our heavenly parents prior to coming to Earth.

And then a big subtitle that says, men are gods in embryo.

Now, I read that before, but maybe it went zooming right on past you. Men are gods in embryo.

The next time that you hear someone saying, oh, this is Christian theology, we're a Christian group, in fact, we have the fullness of the

Christian faith, remember the phrase, men are gods in embryo, and God himself was once a man.

And then compare that with the Bible. Subtitles. We have the potential to become like our heavenly parents.

You know, the Heavenly Father and Mother, capitalized. Next subtitle, this potential was transmitted to us through our spiritual birth.

And you see, there's another example. Spiritual birth, that's in the pre -existence, not spiritual birth as we talk about in being born again.

Exaltation is attained by going from one small degree to another. And that's a quotation directly from the

King Follett funeral discourse, a passage I've cited many, many times in my books and in our tracks on Mormonism.

But again, you'll find LDS apologists saying, hey, don't hold me accountable to that. Well, for some reason, the church doesn't mind holding people accountable to that.

They use it in their teaching, right here in their own publication. Big subtitle, exaltation is attainable only in family units.

And it goes on from there to talk about celestial marriage brings many blessings. Exaltation is based on celestial marriage.

Then shall they be gods because they have no end, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Now, you think that the Mormon church knows this is what it's teaching? Sure. So, the question is, why aren't they right out front and open with all of us about what they believe?

Why, when their apologists come out and present their viewpoint, do they hide?

Do they hide these things behind platitudes? Or why has the president of the

Mormon church, when on 60 Minutes or Larry King, made statements we don't know much about that, when he probably had a hand in the production of this material when he was a part, when he was one of the apostles working within the inner workings of the church.

I think they call that dishonesty. And it's not a Christian virtue. And yet it's a part of the

LDS faith. 602 -274 -1360, 1 -888 -550 -1360.

Maybe there are some LDS people in the audience that would like to attempt to explain why it is that you all say one thing to each other in your classes and something else outside.

I know that if you come to our church this coming Sunday morning, you will hear a

Bible study lesson. Specifically, this coming Sunday morning, the Bible study lesson will be in church history.

And we will be looking at the Didache, one of the earliest writings outside the

New Testament, written by Christians. And we'll be looking at the Didache because we just began a series on church history, where we've been, how we got here, with the constant recurring theme throughout the

Bible study of the necessity of following the Scriptures and what has happened over and over and over again throughout church history when people didn't do that.

Because that's what church history teaches us. And then you will hear a sermon, probably derived from 1

Timothy chapter 2. It'll be an exegetical sermon. The service will be focused upon the preaching of the word and the singing of hymns and praise to God.

And you know what? What we say in those services, what we say in those Bible studies, is the same thing that I say in my books and that we say here on the radio.

We just have one message. We don't have one thing that we teach to people in secret over here and then a different thing out here that sort of deemphasizes some of that stuff.

We're very consistent on that point because I think that's important. That's called being biblically honest.

But that's not something that we find in the LDS faith. 602 -274 -1360, 1 -888 -550 -1360.

The phone lines are open. We have one person online. We'd like to have you online as well. We're going to take a break and be right back.

Welcome back to The Dividing Line. My name is James White and we're talking about Mormonism today, but we're talking specifically about how various sundry religious groups can present themselves in a way that is, well, it's not quite accurate.

It's not quite fair to the reality and how we can be taken in by those things. And we invite your participation.

Maybe you have a question at 602 -274 -1360 or 1 -888 -550 -1360.

And let's start off sort of as we do traditionally with Dennis in Phoenix.

Hi, Dennis. Actually, the tradition is Martin gets in ahead of me. Martin has not called us today.

Oh, mercy. It's a sad day. Maybe his special super -duper long -distance phone card burned up or something.

It's a possibility. It's a computer crash. That's a possibility, too. Yeah, well, can I say it?

Bait and switch religion. That's right. That's exactly right. That's exactly what they're doing. In fact, if they came to your door right now, if you didn't ask questions, if you just sat there and went, mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm, they could go through all the missionary lessons with you and get you into that tank and get you baptized and get your name on the rolls without you ever knowing the vast majority of this stuff.

I don't know. I got two pieces of paper. It's on the inside of the house. I don't know if you can see it from the outside. It says dividing line 2 p .m.

All the information, the address, phone number, website. It's been weeks. No one has darkened my door.

It's like they can smell it. It's like garlic keeping away vampires. I don't understand it.

I'm like, come on, come on, come on. I got something to give you now. Where are you? Oh, well, you know, so what you need to do is you need to carry that with you.

And when you see those two missionaries riding down the road on their bikes...

I never get Mormons, though. I always get JWs. I always get JWs. Well, they're going to be scared to take anything from you. But you've got to be able to whip out the call letters real quick and tell them how they can listen, because especially for Jehovah's Witnesses, this is a little better way of doing things because they have to be somewhat sneaky in listening to information and getting information for themselves.

I guess I'll read it to them. That's a good thing to do. Well, if you'd like, you know, whenever we go out to the temple, they have these little cards out there.

And like when we're up in Salt Lake City and we tour the visitor center, you can take these little cards and you can fill out a name and address and say,

I request a visit. And so we could fill one out for you. And in fact, Rich here is volunteering right now.

We could do ten or so for you and put things out like, I really want to join. Come quickly. You know, stuff like that.

And I use that as a threat to my editor and stuff at Bethany House. If he doesn't get back to me, then

I threaten to send in visitor's cards and send the missionaries after him. But it always gets a good response.

Yeah, that's a way to get things done. I don't know. These false religions are kind of blurring together. I mean,

Heavenly Mother, I'm like, what? Mary? Oh, no, wait. We're talking Mormons. And we're like, deification. Oh, Eastern Orthodox? Oh, no, wait.

We're talking Mormons. You know, there is an Eastern Orthodox program on here locally on another station.

Yeah, I've heard it. I've heard it. I've heard them butcher Sola Scriptura. Yes, yes. I've only, a friend of mine at church keeps telling me about it.

But Sundays, I just don't think of things like that. I don't think of listening to that. And so I only caught the tail end last week.

And I'm going to try to remember to listen in, because it is a call in. Maybe we'll get to talk about Sola Scriptura again in the future.

But be that as it may, that is another subject. It's kind of a running undercurrent, though.

I mean, this is what you get when you throw out Sola Scriptura. Well, as soon as you no longer derive your theology from the scriptures, but from other sources, whether it be, quote unquote, sacred tradition, whether it be other books of scripture, whether it be some prophets, apostles, whatever it might be.

Yep, that's what you're going to get, is you're going to get these types of errors. Well, anyways, thanks for calling in today,

Dennis. Thanks for listening. God bless. And that opens up all the phone lines. I was on with,

I was on, was it? Yeah, it was this week with Marty Minto when we did the Trinity. And I was watching how he did things.

And we'd have one person on call online. He'd say, that opens up a line. I just sort of laughed and said, hey,

I'm transparent. We could, you know, we don't have anybody online. Actually, someone's calling now, which is nice.

But as it may, if you ever encounter, not too many people in our audience right now have this book sitting there, ready to talk about this particular book.

If you ever need references to this, maybe you might have a copy of the LDS scriptures.

I would direct you to the book of Abraham chapters four and five for the repeated reference to gods, gods, and more gods.

We do have another caller, and I think I know who this caller is. Let's talk to Maven and Gilbert. Hi, Maven.

Hi, Jim. Did we talk this last week? Yes, we did. Ah, I sort of thought we did.

I was talking with, when you were with Marty, I talked to you. That's right. And I had the same question for you that I had then, since he didn't want to talk about it anymore.

Well, actually, we talked about your question. Your question was, does Jesus Christ have a resurrected physical body?

And we said, yes, he is the God -man, and he does have a resurrected physical body.

And I pointed out to you that reasoning backwards from a unique... Is he a perfect man? Of course he is.

How many goddess do you believe in? And is Jesus Christ God? Well, you just used the term

God in two different ways. You see, there is one being that is God, shared by three eternal persons, the

Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. What definition are you using there? The biblical one. There is one in the

Bible like that. Oh, sure there is. The Bible is very plain to us in teaching. What word in the

Bible says person? Maven. The Bible is very... Show it to me. Maven. Maven. Three being, one person. Okay, this is called putting you on hold so that you can be quiet, and you can stop just talking, and you and I can have a conversation, okay?

So we're going to have a conversation, but we're not going to have any one of us just running over everything, okay?

So I'm going to put you back on here now. Can we just have a conversation? Maven? Yes.

Okay, good, excellent. Now, what I had explained to you, and you said at the beginning that we didn't want to talk about it anymore, and I don't think that was fair to either

Marty or myself. There were other callers, as you know. You said this question about Jesus being a perfect man, okay?

Now, from your perspective, I'm assuming you're LDS. That's correct. You don't believe there's one God anyways, right?

That's correct. Okay, so you believe in the plurality of Gods, okay. That's correct. And so the fundamental issue between you and I is not the incarnation of Jesus Christ, but whether it is a true statement that before me there is no

God formed and there will be none after me, right? Well, that's a Jewish point of view.

That's a Jewish and a Christian point of view. Yes, you might say that. You're a Christian. That's right, and you don't mind saying there's a difference between what we believe.

That's correct. Okay. Now, the question that I then would have is, what is wrong with the biblical revelation that Jehovah, He is

Elohim, there is none else beside Him? That's Deuteronomy 4 .35. Right.

Do you believe Jehovah is Elohim? In some sense, yes.

Do you believe that Elohim gave birth to Jehovah? No, I think that was

Mary that did that. Is Elohim the spiritual and physical parent of Jehovah?

That's correct. Okay, so Elohim was a God before Jehovah was a God, correct? That's correct. Okay. So could you explain what the

Bible says when it says Jehovah, He is Elohim, there is none else beside Him?

Singular. Because if you honor the Son, you honor the Father. That's the definition there.

When the Son says, I am God, He has all that the Father has. And if you honor

Him, you honor the Father. When the Father says, I am God, He has all. Like He gave the

Son, then Son inherited. He can say and speak for the Father. That's very nice, but it doesn't answer the question.

It does answer the question. The question, Jehovah said that He is

Elohim. Elohim and Jehovah in the Old Testament are a description of one

God. Elohim and Jehovah are used in the Old Testament of one God.

In fact, in the Hebrew, what does Elohim mean? You're a student of the scripture. I certainly am. Is it a plural?

Elohim is a plural used with a singular verb translated as a singular. It is translated God. Right. So God and Jehovah, those are names used of the one true

God in the Old Testament 535 times. You distinguish between the two. You make Jehovah a secondary being.

You don't make him a secondary being. I make him the glorified being that God made him.

Is he, has he been a God as long as Elohim? No. Okay. So he's a secondary being. I was correct in my statement.

Oh no. Is he as exalted as Elohim? Is he as exalted as Elohim? Yes. Has he always been exalted as Elohim?

No. Okay. So there was a time when he was not as exalted as Elohim. That's correct. Okay. And was there a time when

Elohim was not exalted? That's correct. So there was a time when neither Elohim or Jehovah were gods.

That's correct. Okay. Well, I'm glad you're going right along lines with everything that I read today.

In fact, what I read from the manual is accurate, is it not? Well, only in the sense like you said.

When I say that Jesus Christ is God, and you say, hey, I believe in one God, and yet you don't believe that God is a man, you believe

God is a man, meaning Christ, but you don't believe God is a man. Yes. The way you're saying it, that's the way.

The Son became a man. See, that's the difference between us, is that my God is the creator of man.

What is he now? He is a man. He is the God -man. Not a man. He is the God -man, and that's the difference between us, is that because in Mormon theology,

Maven, you don't have a creator. How about the Father? Is he God? Yes, he is. Is he a man?

No. How many gods do you believe in? Just one. Well, and you just said Christ was God, and he's a man.

The Son became a man. That's exactly right. And he is a man today, right? Three persons, one being that is

God. Is Christ a man today? You and I disagree on the fact that God himself said, before me, there is no

God formed, and there will be none after me. You dismissed those passages. I didn't dismiss them. The difference between us is that I accept all of Scripture, and you do not.

That's not true. There's millions of Scriptures you don't accept. No, there is no Scripture I do not accept.

I do not believe that Mormonism presents to us Scriptures at all. That's the difference between us.

Does Christ have a God? Does Christ have a God? As the incarnate perfect man, he prayed to his

Father. After he went to heaven? Yes. Does he have a

God? As the incarnate perfect man, the Book of Revelation, he refers to the Father as his God. Do you think that the perfect man would be an atheist?

How many gods are there? Well, as Jesus and all of the apostles taught, Maven, there is only one true

God. Well, we're out of time for today. It is currently just a few minutes before three o 'clock.

Thank you for those of you calling in. Please stay on the line. I'd like to talk to you off the air, but thank you for participating with us, and we'll be back next week here on The Dividing Line.

Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. We are easy to find on the World Wide Web at www .aomin

.org. That's www .aomin .org. You can also find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks on our website.