Apologetics with Kevin Conover of Educate for Life

Ministry Introduction and the Apologetics Conversation

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Welcome to The WRAP Report with Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications. This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

Okay, welcome to another edition of The WRAP Report. I'm glad to have you with us. I am your host, Andrew Rapoport. I am with Striving for Eternity Ministries, and today we are going to talk about a topic that I love, which is apologetics.

Now, I got to meet our guest out in California. I was actually on his show, on his podcast, Educate for Life, and his radio show, and now it's his turn. I think maybe I guilted him to come in, since I was on his show.

He had to come in here and give you guys some great education for life. I am joined by Kevin Conover. So, Kevin, welcome to The WRAP Report.

Hey, thank you so much for having me on, Andrew. I really appreciate it, and looking forward to having a good conversation here.

Yeah, we were out in California. I was trying to take a vacation. It doesn't usually work that way with me, but I did a lot of ministry during the vacation. But one of it was to be out with you in the radio station there and be able to record for your podcast, and so if folks haven't listened to that, and I think I did share that when we were doing the video, but if you haven't heard it, go to Educate for Life, How Kinds, Not Species Originated.

So, that's the episode to look for. When we were out there, we were together, for me at least, the time went really quick, and I wanted more time with you, so having you on here gives me that advantage.

Kevin Conover's Testimony and How He Got Into Apologetics

So, let's start off from my audience who may not know you, know your background, you were sharing with me a little bit in the studio, but can you give your background, your testimony, what got you into apologetics?

Yeah, well, you know, I grew up in a Christian family, but for me, I kind of took it for granted when I was growing up that, okay, Christianity is true, this is what my parents taught me, this is what it is, but as soon as I started going to school, you know, starting in elementary school, I began to be presented with, obviously, information that was contradicting what my parents were teaching me.

I went to public school my whole life, so elementary, then junior high, then high school, and in high school, it really started to heat up because I had a teacher that was very hostile to Christianity, he used to quote, he actually misquoted the Bible frequently in my class, that was in 11th grade, and I ended up deciding to start bringing my Bible to class because I wanted to make sure that whatever he was quoting was actually in the Bible, and lo and behold, one day, he's quoting the Bible again, and he was always being derogatory towards the Bible.

I opened the Bible up, I looked for the Scripture, it's not there, and I'm thinking to myself, I can't believe this, and I raised my hand, and I said, you know, that's actually not in the Bible, and he said, yes, it is, and I said, no, it's not, and he said, well, how do you know?

And I said, well, I have a Bible right here, and he said, bring it up here, I brought it up to him, this was in front of the whole class, he looked at it, he said, oh, I guess it's not in the Bible, and from then on, he was much more careful about what he presented as Scripture, because he knew that I was checking up on what he was saying, and I had several conflicts with him throughout the year, but that caused me to really start to look into Christianity more in depth, because I had friends, I had a good friend from Bosnia who had come here as a refugee, and she was telling me that Islam was true, and I had another guy in my chemistry class who was a Jehovah's Witness, and he was telling me that, you know, the Trinity was false, and so all of a sudden, I was kind of back on my heels and felt like, man, I better really take some time and look into, how do I know what I believe is true?

And what was amazing to me is that as I began to look into these things and started doing research, I started reading books, I started, you know, buying DVDs, or not DVDs at the time, it was VHS, but I started looking at these things, I was amazed at the amount of evidence that demonstrated that Christianity was true, and these other perspectives, these other worldviews were actually not true, and for me, that boosted my confidence in the Lord and in the Bible, and actually caused me to want to tell more people.

I was like, man, more people have to know about this, and ultimately, I ended up, through some friends encouraging me, we together started a club called The Answers Club my junior year of high school, and the whole thing revolved around, we want to provide answers to people's questions about God and the Bible, and we ended up in the yearbook and everything, and I had amazing stories of how God worked through it, and people came to know the Lord because of just being challenged by these questions, and then taking the time to go out and find answers.

It absolutely blew me away, and I saw so many people excited to know the Lord as they realized, hey, this isn't just some mythical fairy tale or something that I have to blindly believe in. This is clearly, abundantly true, and that really started me down the whole road.

I'm 43 now, and that was all the way back in high school, and that passion has just flowed out into my life because I just, you see the Lord change people's lives, and there's nothing really more fulfilling than seeing somebody come to know the Lord and their life radically changing from potentially, you know, going in a bad direction, hopeless, to hopeful and excited, and their relationships getting better, their families getting better, people, you know, just growing in the Lord and just having a positive influence for the King of God.

Now, clearly, you have exposed that you're of an older generation like I am because we both understand what VHS is. Beta and VHS, right? Oh, yeah, I understand that debate. Some of the younger listeners go, beta?

What's that? Betamax? They don't even know that one.

Well, beta is now a video game term, meaning the pre...

Well, it's a software term, yeah, the beta version, but yeah, for some of the younger generation that may understand, it's kind of like when they had DVDs and there was HD-DVD versus Blu-ray. Kind of think there, all right?

And now everyone's going HD-DVD, I don't even remember that. Yeah, that's even the younger generation. So, doing apologetics to the generation we have coming up, I mean, you think about those that are in high school, college right now.

It seems like there's been such, and I know every generation probably thinks this, that there's been such a radical change since they were kids, but I think with technology, we really have seen a shifting that we've never seen before because of some of the technology and the way the world is connected together.

And really, what we're seeing is a worldwide anti-Christian message, whether it be from Islam or from professing atheism. So, how do you think we could try to reach this next generation that's coming up?

Reaching the Next Generation in a Digital Age

Yeah, I think that's a really good.

Statement. It's something that's really important for us to know. I mean, the Bible is very clear. We need to understand the times, right? We need to be able to identify what is going on, and things have definitely changed.

They're not the same. I think in the past, I look at my parents' generation, and people generally believed in God. They believed in God. They believed in Jesus Christ. They might not be followers of Christ, but they believed, and you didn't have to persuade somebody that, for example, Jesus was a real person.

All you had to do is say, well, do you want to give your life to him or not? And some people said no, but they didn't say, oh, Jesus isn't a real person. Today, you have people saying, well, how do we know Jesus even existed?

And now, as crazy as that sounds, because it does sound very crazy, and it's interesting because there are so many myths out there on the internet that people just take for granted. So, you'll have somebody just go, Constantine is the one who put all the books in the Bible.

It's pure silliness, but because it's over the internet, it's all over the internet, and because, like you said, you can mass-produce information so quickly, and it's integrated into the whole world.

People just go, hey, that's what I heard. I guess it's true. And they don't even think to question it. They just think, okay, the Da Vinci Code, you know, when that book came out, it just reanimated all these ridiculous lies about the text, about scripture.

And so, technology is good and bad in the sense that, well, you have ideas that are completely wrong spread like wildfire, and that's the horrible thing. I think of Bill Nye's video when he made the video about evolution, saying that it was basically true, and that you couldn't be a decent scientist unless you believed in evolution.

And I looked at the hits on YouTube on that particular video, and at the time, there were over 7 million hits on that video. Well, another group put out a video showing that there are scientists all throughout history who have believed in creation, and most of the founders of the different areas of science were Christian.

And so, the reality is, of course you can be a good scientist and believe in creation. I would say you can't fully embrace science without being a Christian and believing in God and creation. But the video they had put out, this other group, the Christian group had put out, only had about 500 ,000 views.

And so, what happened was you're overwhelmed by a tidal wave of misinformation. And so, my challenge to people out there who want to make a difference is, it's not just a fair fight between truth and error.

What it is, is we're also dealing with essentially a propaganda war. If you have so much misinformation out there that people have given up even trying to find the truth, well, then you're in a bad situation.

So, I think a lot of what we need to do, Christ said, the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Pray to the Lord of the harvest to send out more workers into the harvest field. And to me, what that's saying is, hey, there's a lot of people that know they need God, but they haven't heard the good news.

And they don't know the truth of the gospel. It's amazing to me how many people don't know the truth of the gospel in our supposedly Christian culture. But I think for Christians, we have to get more comfortable with sharing the gospel and being able to share it in a way in which the skeptical culture can begin to listen and hear.

And that takes knowing how to respond to some of the questions that people ask about, you know, how did all the books get put into the Bible? And if we want to be an effective Christian, if we want to be salt and light in this culture, I find it almost impossible to escape apologetics.

You must at least have a small degree of understanding of apologetics, and you must also be able to answer some of the most common questions that people have in a way that's intelligent, loving, and clear.

And that takes time. You know, that takes time to learn about that. And that's a big part of what my ministry.

Is about, as well as I know your ministry also. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I think is so lacking nowadays is the idea of critical thinking. And I would argue, you can't teach critical thinking and evolution at the same time, because people would quickly realize evolution's a fraud.

And so, what they do, like your professor in school, you know, teacher in school appeals to false claims of what the Bible says. It's amazing how just doing original research is what I always focus on, is not just taking what someone says verbatim, but that's the whole generation that's not taught how to critically think, that's what they do.

We had a guy who used to work for us, and he was in the Word of Faith movement, and he came out of it because he basically said, because of some crazy street preacher. I used to be in New York every week sharing the gospel, just put up a little stand and share, and people would shout out a scripture verse saying, oh, the Bible says this, and they'll give some verse, and all I would do, literally, all I would do is back up a few verses and read it in context, and the entire crowd realized that, yeah, that verse does say that, but the verses around it make it clear that's not what it means.

And he ended up doing that at his church. Like, he'd go to church and start practicing that and went, oh, wait, this pastor's taken everything out of context and left the Word of Faith movement and went to a biblical church.

So, I think that….

Jared. That's a great point. I mean, I think the same thing can be said of a lot of the subjects that people are asking questions about. Like, one of the big ones that comes up frequently by atheists like Dan Barker from the Freedom from Religion Foundation or others is that the Old Testament teaches slavery.

Well, the word slavery is definitely in the Old Testament quite a bit, but if you understand indentured servitude, and then you also understand what was going on in Canaan at the time, and you understand the relationship, and you understand the culture, you have to have that in context.

If you don't, you're in big trouble. But, you know, I was handcuffed to an atheist by BuzzFeed. They wanted to handcuff a creationist and an evolutionist together, and we were there, for 24 hours, we were handcuffed.

His name was John Rail, and it's on YouTube. Your listeners.

Can check it out if they want. Pete. Yeah, I actually was… that was going to be something we're going to do in a later segment, but we can do it now, because I will have the link in the show notes for folks for that.

Jared. Yeah, it's hilarious. But what's interesting about that particular conversation is that partway through, what BuzzFeed wanted us to do, and you don't see this in the video, but they said, what we'd like to do is we'd like you to take John Rail to church.

Now, the night we were doing it, it was a Monday night, I believe. We couldn't find a single church service on a Monday night. So, you know, that's the day all the pastors get a day off. But we ended up doing a Bible study at my house, and I said to him, before we got here, I said, what would you like to cover?

What would you like to do? And I gave him a whole list of different topics that we could cover, whatever it was. And the one he picked out was slavery in the Bible. And he picked it out because he thought for sure, oh, this is going to destroy the Bible.

And I'm going to be able to, you know, continue my attacks on Scripture. Well, I went through the whole study on slavery. And at the end of the handcuffing, the producer, the BuzzFeed producer said, so, John, how did the Bible study impact you?

What do you think about the issue of slavery? Does the Bible teach slavery? And he kind of hemmed and hawed for a little while. And I said, John, come on, give us a straight answer. And he said, okay, you know what?

I don't think the Bible teaches slavery anymore. And this is a very, very committed atheist who mocks Scripture on a regular basis, who had his mind changed by an hour-long Bible study, showing that if we look at it in context, it's very clear that the Bible is actually anti-slavery.

It is not a support slavery. The whole reason slavery was abolished in the Western civilization is because of people who are committed to the reality that God has created all men equal. And so, the sad thing is, is that if you were to go out on the street, or just talk to people, you know, on the internet, especially, and ask them, what is the Bible's view towards slavery?

They would say, oh, well, the Old Testament supports slavery. And this is blatantly misunderstood. And so, like you said, everything's got to be taken in context. And I think that's a lot of what apologetics is.

It's taking the questions that people have about suffering, evil, and hell, or homosexuality, or the abortion issue, and it's taking those and putting them in the proper context, proper perspective. And I think once you do that, what happens is people's minds are changed really quickly.

But the sad thing is, is that a lot of people just aren't exposed to good information. They're overwhelmed by the mass of misinformation, and they give up actually taking the time to look for truth and get to know God, you know?

Yeah, and this is the thing that, when you think about slavery, I'm going to end up, I'm sure, having to deal with this. I have a debate coming up September 29th. I love this, that someone challenged me on the debate topic, is secular humanism better than Christianity?

Oh, wow. I love that. That's a softball pitch right there. Yeah, it's like saying, hi, I want to come debate you and lose before we get started, because my whole worldview requires yours. I mean, that's fantastic.

And I'm sure he's going to bring up slavery, and he probably doesn't, what he wants to refer to is the slavery that the African slave trade and things like that, and he probably doesn't know that the Bible actually condemns kidnapping people, that the Bible doesn't actually refer to slaves as property, because if you had property, if you had a cow that went astray from a neighbor, you have to return it.

But if you have a slave that runs away, you don't return him, because it's not property. He probably doesn't know that slaves were paid in Old Testament Israel. They were paid a half day's wage. I always say it this way.

Slavery in the Old Testament is similar to what we think of Japan in the 80s, where you worked for a company, the company owned your house, bought your clothes, paid for your education. You worked for the company for generations.

It's not like you get a job and you just shift. Everything's owned by the company, your car, everything. So the better the company does, the better you can do was the mindset, but they sort of own you.

You can't just pick up and go somewhere else easily, and they take care, they have a responsibility to take care of everything. So the focus they like to do is to focus on, well, you don't have freedom, and they don't focus on the fact that the person in charge has responsibility.

Yeah, and Exodus 21 -16,.

This is the one I say if somebody just says, oh, the Bible endorses slavery. I just read Exodus 21 -16. Death is the punishment for kidnapping. If you sell the person you kidnapped, or if you're caught with that person, the penalty is death.

And antebellum slavery, you know, prior to the Civil War, the way slavery got off the ground is because of kidnapping. It was kidnapping people from Africa. So if you just followed that one admonition in Scripture, all of slavery would have been impossible in America.

But the slavery in the Old Testament primarily is a form of paying off your debts. They didn't have banks like we do today. And they didn't have, you know, debt collectors. And this was the method through which they satisfied a debt that had to be paid off.

And a lot of people just don't understand that. And if you killed your slave, you yourself were put to death. So again, I think it's context, context, context. And I think that's one of the things we're battling in our culture today.

And when I teach my students, because I'm a Christian high school teacher, I've been teaching for 12 years, seniors, 12th grade students. When I teach them, my goal is to, you know, put a problem before them and say, okay, how do we solve this issue?

And how do we read this in context? Let's get it in context of Scripture. And then rather than cherry picking things, which is what, you know, I mean, that's the devil's strategy. That's what he does.

He's a father of lies. He cherry picks things, pulls them out of context, and then tries to get people to doubt the Word of God by giving them.

Half-truths and so forth. Well, yeah, slavery was more of a way of taking care of people, which seems strange for folks to think of. After this break, I want to talk about the website, some of the resources you have there, because you have put together some coursework that's on your website, and people can check the website out at educationforlife .org.

But I want to talk about some of those resources after this break.

Ephesians chapter 4 verse 25. Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth, each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another for his name's sake. What's up, everybody? I'm Jamal Bandy, the host of the Prescribed Truth Podcast, where I seek to distribute the truth that the doctor prescribes to the church and the world today.

The Lord graciously brought me out of a cult in 2010, saved me in 2013, and in 2017, Prescribed Truth began. My mission has been to spread the truth of God's Word while refuting dangerous lies affecting most churches and the culture at large from a biblical and reformed perspective.

Join me on Sundays at 6 p .m. Eastern Time for the live recording of the podcast on YouTube, and download the audio version wherever podcasts can be found, including the Christian Podcast Community. If you would like to know more about Prescribed Truth, please visit my website at prescribetruth .com.

And remember, this world is full of errors, but the only thing that the doctor prescribes is truth. Blessings.

Okay, that is Prescribed Truth, one of the newest podcasts on the Christian Podcast Community. If you want to learn more about Jamal, check out my last episode that I had done with him where we talked about a whole bunch of things, social justice, basically what is critical race theory, things like this.

We were all over the map on stuff, but it was very educational to seeing basically the way the left tries to push an agenda. But what I want to talk about with Kevin here today is Education for Life. This is a website.

I encourage you to go out to educationforlife .org, and the first thing you're going to come upon when you get there is basically four courses. There's 10 classes each, short videos. It's not going to take a whole lot of time.

Very, very good videos. I think, I don't know if they're all, they were about 15 minutes, the ones that I had watched, and I don't know if they're all at that same length, Kevin, but...

Educate for Life Courses and Curriculum Design

Yeah, well, actually, for those of you, it might take a bit of time. So, I developed this specifically for essentially a curriculum. So, I've been teaching now for 12 years, and about six years ago, I had a group of parents come to me, and they said, hey, Kevin, they said, we can't afford to send our kids to a private school, but we really know that they need this information.

And they said, would you mind teaching on the weekends? This was in North County in San Diego. And they asked me if I would come up and teach about 20 different, 20 families, the stuff that I teach every day at the private high school.

And I got my wife's permission, right? That's important. And got her permission to be able to do that. And so, I was teaching on the weekends, but I was teaching six classes every day. Then I'm teaching on the weekends also.

And it was kind of overwhelming. And I thought, you know, this is too much. And so, a friend of mine said, well, why don't you work on putting this together online? Take the content that you teach all year and put it online, and then people can utilize it wherever they're at.

And so, that's what I ended up doing. And so, the 15 minutes you're watching is actually.

A preview, Andrew. So, it's a little longer than that. Okay. So, because I was going to get into the payment that you have. So, the paid gives you. How long are the episodes if folks pay?

So, every video is about an hour to an hour and a half long. Okay. So, it's broken up into actually a two-year curriculum, four semesters, 100 series, 200 series, 300 series, and 400 series. Series is created or evolved.

200 is religion, who's right. 300 is Bible, myth, or fact. And.

The last one is culture and the Bible. So, for folks, basically what it is, you're going to have about 10 classes. It's broken up in kind of four courses, each working off of the other. You get this for less than $5 a month.

And so, you could preview it to see these are high quality videos. This is not, you know, Kevin's not in his backyard or in his basement. Well, he could be because it's green screen. So, but it's very well done.

I was, I mean, the couple of the videos that I saw were enough information that they could easily be shared online to answer questions.

Exactly. And that was the whole goal when I put these together because what I was having happen was I had students who would graduate. I'd get a message on Facebook or wherever and they'd say, Mr. Conover, I'm in class.

We've just been told we have to write an assignment on why creation is false and evolution is true. I need my notes from your class. And I thought, you know, I need to make a way where these students can access this information basically forever.

And they know if I go here, I'm going to get what I need. And so, now I've had many students take the classes again afterwards and go, okay, I'm going to use this to write a paper either against abortion or against evolution or whatever it might be.

And so, they're very high quality. The information in them is sourced and cited. So, you can use it for research papers. You can use it to actually have intelligent conversations with people and not just be hearsay, but you can reference people and go, you know, I'll give you an example.

One of the scientists I reference in the course on genetics is Dr. James Torr. He's an organic synthetic chemist. He's ranked as one of the top 50 scientists in the world. He's actually a messianic Jew like you, Andrew.

And he met Christ in college. And today, he says there's absolutely zero mechanism for evolution to work. He literally makes molecules for a living. He says, if you can't do this on the molecular level, there's no way you can do it on the biology level.

Evolution cannot happen. And so, when you begin to use, you know, references to somebody like Dr. James Torr, you look at his information. He's a very credible source. And then you begin to share that with your peers in class or your professor or whoever it might be or your relatives.

I tell people, you know, this is how you crack the door of a person's heart. What happens is they begin to go, you know what, maybe I need to give God a second chance here. Maybe I need to give the word of God a second chance.

I need to go back and take a little bit more time. And because this person's giving me some solid answers here. And, you know, that's how a lot of people end up coming to know the Lord. Lee Strobel and a lot of these famous apologists you hear about, that's how the door of their heart got cracked.

And ultimately, as we water and plant seeds, ultimately, God draws them to him. So, that's what these courses are meant to be, is an easier way to water and plant. They say a picture is worth a thousand words, but these are videos in HD quality for, you know, videotaped with a 4K camera.

And they're meant to be very engaging and also help people be able to more easily share the gospel with people around them.

Well, this is one of the things we said earlier, how do you reach this generation? And we realize that we're going up against people who have money and Christians focus their money on donating to church and things like this and not as much on video production and producing things that wow people.

But that's what the next generation, they're interested in. And your classes that you have are geared to get them to wait, wait a minute, this is really cool, this is really entertaining and educational.

And so, there's 40 classes that you have broken up into four courses. So, if people have an interest in creation and evolution, course 100. Religion, which one's right, course 200. The Bible, myth or fact, course 300.

Culture and the Bible, myth 400. And I mean, you're dealing with a lot of different topics that I see in here.

Refuting Relativism and Defending Biblical Truth

Yeah, exactly. And what's happened is over the past 12 years of teaching, students bring stuff up. I mean, when I started teaching, I basically got thrown into the classroom. They said, it was in the middle of the year, they said, there's no curriculum, can you do this?

And I said, oh, pray for me. And so, I hopped in there. And what happened was students immediately began asking me questions about all the things that they were personally concerned about. How do I know Buddhism isn't true?

Buddhists seem really nice. They're very peaceful. They don't judge anybody. And how do I know Buddhism? Why should I believe Christianity over Buddhism? And just on and on and on. One of the biggest topics, and you know this, Andrew, today is our postmodern culture.

Relativism has become almost a de facto go-to philosophy. People don't even realize it. But what's happening up in Canada with Bill C -16 that was passed, I believe, last year, and what's this movement towards the whole gender issue where I can be whatever gender I want to be, it's just a matter of my preference.

And then everybody else has to essentially bow down to what I've decided I am. That's a philosophical perspective. That is the, C .S. Lewis called it perspectivism. It's also called solipsism. And today we know it as relativism, which is that all truth is relative.

Well, I deal with that in these courses. And I give students the ability to refute that. It's class 202. It's called refuting relativism. And C .S. Lewis said it's the most dangerous perspective. It's the most dangerous philosophy there is.

Because essentially what it does is it says there is no such thing as truth. And if truth can't be known, then why argue about what truth is? It's the devil's way of shutting down conversation. Essentially what he's trying to do is, he's not trying to have an open dialogue about truth.

He's trying to say there is no truth, so why even have this discussion? And how do you communicate to somebody the truth of God's word, right? Jesus Christ said I'm the way, the truth, and the life. How do you communicate truth when somebody says there's no such thing as truth?

And this is the way to get out of the conversation altogether. So in that particular class, I show how faulty that is and how it's absolutely ridiculous to make the claim that there is no truth, or morals are only opinions, and so forth and so on.

So these classes are meant to be extremely relevant. They're not ivory tower discussions. It's streetwise apologetics. It's the discussions I'm going to have with my club soccer team, with my friend at work, with my relative over Thanksgiving.

These are real-world issues and real-world conversations that I put into here and tried to make it as concise and valuable as possible.

That is so needed in this generation that has like zero attention span. So let's get into, after this next break, what I want to do is get into discussing something that's a passion on your heart is families and how to not miss the mark.

Because a lot of what you're doing, you're gearing it toward generation of people who are still really within their home. I mean, you're dealing with high school students. That's really who I think you geared it toward, but it's not limited there by no means.

And so let's talk about families and what role they would have. Get Andrew Rappaport's book at whatdotheybelieve .com. The good news is Striving for Eternity would love to come to your church to spend two days with your folks, teaching them biblical hermeneutics.

That's right. The art and science of interpreting scripture. The bad news is somebody attending might be really upset to discover Jeremiah 29, 11 should not be their life verse. To learn more, go to strivingforeternity .org to host a Bible interpretation made easy seminar in your area.

And that was where we'll teach you more about context. Now, Kevin, you know what the nice thing is about doing a podcast over a radio show? You and I are not tied to that time clock that you had when we were in your show.

Where it's like, okay, okay, ready? Can I get this in in this? Okay, got it. All right. Yeah, so keeps you from talking too much. See, you're talking about slavery on your radio show. You're a slave to that clock.

You know it. Yeah, that's right. So, let's talk about families and the fact that, you know, there's something you had said off air that really struck me is that a lot of the Christian families, and you didn't say this, but this is what I end up seeing, it's almost as if they push the raising of their children's spiritual maturity onto the church.