February 3, 2025 Show with Jerry Johnson: “An Open Conversation”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this third day of February, 2025.

I am absolutely thrilled to have a frequently returning guest on the program today, an old friend of mine that should be no stranger to the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience. That is Jerry Johnson, who is a world -renowned

Reformed Christian apologist, a documentarian, and he is most well -known for writing and co -producing the documentary

Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism. And today, Jerry just wanted to have an open conversation with me where we addressed multiple topics and that actually gives the listener the opportunity to send in a question on any issue they would like to ask.

So, our email address, if you'd like to do that, is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back once again on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jerry Johnson.

Thank you, brother. Good to be here. I would ask you how was your Christmas, but you were in the hospital, weren't you?

Yeah, thanks for bringing up that depressing memory. We have been there, brother.

I was in there for 45 days. Wow. And I hated every minute of it. I believe it.

Well, I have to constantly remind myself that there are people on this planet who have a lot more difficult time in life than I do, and that was really nothing.

It's not like I was having major surgery or anything. But I was in the hospital for seven days, and I did spend

Christmas Day also in the hospital. But I did have also some wonderful Christian friends visit me, and I'm glad that I'm out of there, especially because the food was so horrendous.

But I can tell you that the nurses were all absolutely delightful and kind and patient and patient to the with the patient.

Excuse me. I was in there just for those of you who don't know. I had and I guess

I still have to some level congestive heart failure, but my condition is getting better every day through the medication

I'm taking, I'm assuming, and I don't even really feel like I have anything as serious as that right now as far as symptoms go.

But I will keep you updated. You should, in fact, continue to pray for me, please, as I do have a blood clot in my heart and in my lung, and the medication

I'm taking is supposed to dissolve those. It may take up to five months. They told me it could take less, could take more.

But once I find out the diagnosis on that, when they are finally dissolved,

I will let you know. Hey, brother. I don't know if you can believe this, but coming up this

Friday, it will be six years since I had the stroke. Wow. That's hard to believe. Yeah.

Time goes by fast when you're not having fun. Yeah, right. Well, you wanted to have an open conversation today, which is basically the same thing we did a couple of times, at least in the past, with a different title.

We called it Uncle Jerry's Hodgepodge Lodge. But this is basically the same thing, an open conversation.

And why don't you start off the conversation with one of the issues that you had in your mind when we arranged this interview?

All right, brother. I wrote something that I think people really need to think well upon.

And you see this in a lot of your dispensational

Armenian Baptist churches, but you see it all across Christendom. And I wrote this.

I'm going to quote it for you. If one reads the Old Testament, one quickly realizes that idolatry always tripped up Old Testament Israel.

Now, I don't think anybody can dispute that. Whenever Old Testament Israel got involved in idolatry,

Israel went down the wrong path and they started doing things like sacrificing their children to different idols.

They...even if they... Hold on, I'm sorry. While you're looking at whatever you're looking at, they even did so when they were eyewitnesses to God dramatically manifesting

Himself on this earth in all kinds of miraculous ways, and they still wound up abandoning

Him and doing their own thing. Right. Brother, just an offshoot here.

People can think about this, but when you think about the time that Moses went up to Mount Sinai and Jacob stood at the foot of the mountain...

Joshua, I'm sorry. Joshua stood at the foot of the mountain and they came down and the children of Israel had made this idol and they were having a worship service.

It sounded like a crazy worship service, you know? And Joshua immediately said, it sounds like war.

I always think about that with some of these charismatic worship services.

It sounded like war. That's what he thought. Interesting. So anyway, just for people to think about that.

But this is one thing, it kind of bothers me, because I watch... When I work out in the morning,

I do the treadmill. You see it behind me. There it is. And even when

I'm in the afternoon, when I'm working out with weights, I usually listen to a sermon or something.

And a lot of these videos are really good, but what they'll do is they will have images of some hippie that they identify as Jesus.

And he's a white Anglo -Saxon European and he has blonde hair and blue eyes.

And I'm sitting there and I'm looking at that and I'm thinking, how are we not doing the same thing?

How are we doing in the church today? We have idols all over the place. And, you know, knowing that that tripped up Old Testament Israel, we've left the

Church of Rome. And one of the things that the Reformers, especially Calvin, that he railed against if you read his

Institutes, he talks about the idolatry. And, you know, here we are.

We have pictures of some hippie up in church. I remember one time

Tracy and I, we were with the kids and we went on vacation. And after the call to worship, the youth group was selling

T -shirts because they were going to go to some thing. I don't remember even what it was.

This was like 20 years ago. And one of the T -shirts they had was a hippie in a gown flying through the air with a basketball in his hand.

And underneath it, you know, how it would say Air Jordan, it said Air Jesus.

And they were selling that T -shirt. And I thought, that is gross. I can't believe that they're taking the

Lord. I mean, when John saw a vision of the risen Lord, he fell down at his feet as dead.

And here we are trivializing it. Right. Even if there was no picture of Jesus on that, what did you say?

It was a T -shirt? Yeah. Even if Jesus, if there was no drawing or artwork depicting

Jesus on the shirt, the slogan itself is blasphemous. And there are many, there are many

T -shirts and bumper stickers over the last,

I don't know how many decades they've been doing this, but you still see them like, this blood's for you instead of Budweiser.

And, you know, you could go on and on and on with things like that, that are on different levels of being extremely distasteful.

But yeah, I know, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, I've been in churches before where they have, again, some hippie with long hair and maybe a beard hanging on the wall, a picture of him, a painted picture.

And they call that Jesus. And I, you know, I'm sorry, it's not Jesus. Now, I'm assuming by your,

I kind of can tell the root of your disagreement is really the second commandment.

Now, because today, I don't know how long this has been going on, but let's say within the past 10 years, people who have done movies,

TV specials, and other things depicting

Jesus have wised up to the fact that the paintings that we've seen in the

Renaissance, which have been duplicated as far as the way Jesus looks all the way up through the 21st century, that just as you were mentioning, the blond -haired, blue -eyed, handsome

Jesus, we remember the Bible says that there was nothing comely about him, that men might be drawn to him.

So we know from the Bible that he wasn't handsome, especially not stunningly

Hollywood handsome. But lately, they've been at least making him look

Semitic, like an Israelite, and they typically have shortened his hair.

Not that it's necessarily short hair, but it's not as long as it used to be. Does that bother you just as much?

Yes, it does. What I would say, what I tell people, if God wanted us to know what

Christ looked like, he would have had digital cameras or at least Polaroids invented in the first century.

But you're right, you're quoting Isaiah 53 -2, which reads, and I'm going to read from the

New American Standard Bible, He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of the parched ground.

He has no stately form or majesty that we should look upon him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to him.

And, you know, the thing is, these older images or the one that's the most popular that has him looking like a lily white boy, you said it, he probably resembled his mother.

And his mother was Semitic. So, I'm sorry, Semitic can be any type of Middle Eastern, and he definitely wasn't a white

European. But, you know, years ago, when I took psychology,

I think it was, the professor was talking about, and he wasn't talking about Christianity, he was talking about really any type of religion, how eventually the gods that they depicted ended up looking like them.

And so if you go back, the first time you see

Christ depicted with a beard or the image that is supposedly

Christ was around the fourth century. Now, would it have not been very logical that he had a beard since he was a

Jewish male? I mean, more than likely, yes. But that was the first time they depicted him with a beard.

Okay. All right. I've seen, I've done a little bit of research, and I would encourage other people maybe to research this more than I have.

But you've got, I mean, anywhere from the second to the sixth century, depending on who you read, late second century all the way up to the sixth, they will debate images of Christ, supposedly of Christ.

And my one thing is, if you look at the second commandment, thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, that is in the earth beneath, or that is on water under the earth.

And so it excludes everything. You can't make a graven image.

This is just totally preposterous. And I'm sitting there reading the Old Testament, and I'm thinking, how in the world can the professing

Protestant Reformed Church, and I'm not sure Reformed people are doing it, maybe the army.

Oh, yeah. R .C. Sproul, which I'm assuming it's still there at the St. Andrew's Chapel, had a giant painting of Jesus' face right there in the narthex or the hallway, or not the hallway, the lobby of the church.

As soon as you walk into the church building, it's there, and it's giant. I'm talking, unless my memory is faulty,

I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 foot tall or something like that.

You saying that really surprises me. Well, he had more of a

Lutheran view of these things, and the Lutherans. And I've read Luther's view, and I love

Luther, but Luther was wrong. Right. And I'm too.

Now, let me just go back to the very wording of the commandment. Now, this may make you mad at me, but I have not been, in fact,

I don't recall ever having been radically opposed to images of Jesus in books and things like that, illustrated books, because the commandment, in my opinion, is specifically referring to bowing down.

I've got to confess, that's something that I have, because I've had that question before.

Because if you took the commandment in a very strict, literal sense, you would not have a painting of anything on your wall, a bird, a fish.

A picture of your wife in your wallet. Right. In fact, I think that's one of the reasons the

Amish don't. I think that they're misinterpreting that to a hyper iconoclast degree, but I don't look down upon or cause problems with my brethren who disagree with me on that.

In fact, the very church where I'm a member, Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, they have your view.

Yeah, the one thing I would say is, okay, I don't believe that means an image of your wife or your children or anything like that, or your house, but I do believe there is an action there that you're not to bow down, because it does go on to say,

Thou shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord thy

God, am a jealous God. Now, here's something that the reason people ought to think about this.

Well, visiting the iniquities. See, the visiting the iniquities is tied on with images that you're worshipping.

Now, the only thing I would say is, if you see the most popular picture that's out there, and you have that image in your mind when you're praying or something, are you not, therefore, committing idolatry?

So, that's the only thing I would say. What if you're thinking about that?

What if you're drawing that mental picture in your head? I saw this picture in such and such a book, and that's who

I'm praying to. How is that not mental idolatry? It's kind of hard not to unsee it.

Yeah, to further clarify my view, and by the way, it's not like a rigid view.

I'm very teachable on this. But I do not believe that we should have images of Jesus in the same worship area where people are conducting their worship services because, mainly, of the fact that many religions, like the

Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy, that have these images of Jesus, whether it be paintings or three -dimensional statues or icons like the

Eastern Orthodox have that are less than three -dimensional.

People who are members of those religions do worship those images.

Now, they say that they don't. They say that they only venerate them. There's no difference. I would agree.

So I'm not a fan of that. I don't like paintings of Jesus that make him look like a

Swede or a black man either because he wasn't from Africa.

He was from Israel. Or if I saw one where he looked

Chinese or something, I wouldn't be in favor of that either. I'm just saying that I'm just less radically opposed to that idea of like in a children's book even or I have myself, although it's been a while since I've done it,

I have set up nativity scenes in my home with the little tiny statues of Mary Joseph and the baby

Jesus. And I've never, for even a split second, venerated that little tiny statue of Jesus in the manger.

But anyway, that's just where I'm coming from. Let me quote to you the larger catechism of the

Westminster Confessional, I'm sorry, the smaller catechism. Question number 50.

And I'm going to quote to you the answer because the question is what is required in the second commandment.

The answer is the second commandment requires the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire all religious worship and ordinances as God has appointed.

Now this is what Reformed people call the regulative principle of worship.

We only worship God by what he has revealed. Not by any suggestion of the flesh or of Satan, but only what his word reveals.

And remember, the sons of Aaron, they came up with this, what

I call, I tell people it was a new and exciting way to worship God. They didn't think they were doing anything wrong, but it was a fire, they put a strange fire on the altar that God had not commanded them.

Yes, I have often wanted to put a sign in Roman Catholic churches where they light the candles with the saint statue above the candles.

I've always wanted to sneak into Catholic churches and put a sign below the candles that said

In loving memory of Nadab and Abihu. I've never done it, but I've always wanted to.

That is just one thing I do not understand is how the Roman Catholic church can have all these images.

But the Protestant church, at least today, is doing the same thing.

By the way, before I forget, you might really enjoy, and so may our listeners, and you may learn from a debate that I organized.

I can't remember how long ago it was. It was probably 20 years ago, somewhere in that neighborhood.

I organized a debate between James White and Roman Catholic apologist

Patrick Madrid, and the theme was the veneration of Mary Saint's images and relics.

I thought James really, clearly, won the day.

Is that debate online? Yes, you can find it on YouTube. Type in James White Debates.

Patrick Madrid on venerating images. That would be a good thing to watch.

Because I went to Catholic school, just to let your readers know. I know they're probably falling over right now.

But I can remember we would have necklaces of St. Christopher and we would have his image on there.

I don't know if that was his image, actually, or if that was an actual representation of him.

Vatican II actually came out and said he didn't exist. Yeah. I heard that.

They did away with that now. But St. Christopher was supposed to be the patron saint of travelers, or something like that.

Let me read to you the Westminster Confession of Faith, Shorter Catechism, question number 51.

What is forbidden in the Second Commandment? The Second Commandment forbids the worshiping of God by images or any other way not appointed in His Word.

And do you possibly do like you were talking about?

See, that's the only thing I have. Could movies or documentaries or anything like that.

I will let you know. There are some images in Amazing Grace. Now, I wasn't the editor of it.

I was the writer. And I opposed using images in there.

But as time went on, they started doing that. But I asked them, because we know

Christ was a man. We know He had a body. We know He had hands and feet and a head.

We don't know anything else. We don't know His facial features. We don't know anything beyond that.

So... Oh, wow. We've got to go to our first commercial break. And if anybody wants to join us with a question for my guest today,

Jerry Johnson, world -renowned reformed Christian apologist and documentarian. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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and don't forget to mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. So we're now back with Jerry Johnson before the break during this interview today, which is an open conversation, and you could ask a question on any topic, but we were discussing the

Second Commandment and what would actually be an indication that you have violated that, as many religions do, especially within Christendom, the

Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church, but as Jerry was saying, there are evangelical

Protestants who, some of them almost have an identical view of images in worship, with the exception is most don't venerate these images.

But anyway, if you want to pick up where you left off. Yeah, the only thing,

I just want people to think well upon it, because they've got these images of a hippie, and a lot of churches don't make those images in your mind when you're praying, and because we don't know what

Christ looked like, we don't know if he had a beard, he probably did, we don't know what color his eyes are, though we can guess, but if, like I said earlier, if God would have wanted us to know what

Christ looked like, he would have had digital cameras or Polaroids invented in the first century, and he did it.

So a lot of these images that have facial features or anything like that, are they not a violation of the

Second Commandment, and are they not what the church was remonstrating against, protesting against, and I think they were.

And just to let you folks know, even in the movie created by Mel Gibson, The Passion of the

Christ, he failed at the biblical test by hiring

Jim Caviezel to portray Christ, because Jim Caviezel, although they threw makeup and prosthetics on his face, made him look

Semitic, let's face it, I even as a heterosexual male can say

Jim Caviezel's a very handsome guy, and that violates the biblical description that we mentioned before, which is in a prophecy of Isaiah, saying that there was nothing comely about him, and it's referring to the

Messiah Jesus. Comely, of course, meaning handsome, physically attractive, and on top of that,

Mel Gibson is a traditionalist Roman Catholic, so he had no qualms about any kind of image, obviously.

But anyway, did you want to continue on that topic, or do you have anything else that you wanted to bring up?

Yeah, no, I just wanted people to think well upon it, and it really kind of grieves me whenever I see those images, and you've got that hippie, and that's not

Christ, that's not the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, do let me say this, it's been years ago that I read it, but Joe Moorcraft's commentary on the

Westminster Confession, he really did a good job on that section, so if anybody's got that, go back and read that, because I do see a lot of churches that do that, that'll make those images, that'll put them in their sanctuaries, that'll venerate them, that'll say that they're

Jesus, but we don't know if they're Jesus. I mean, we do know they're not

Jesus. Yes, and in fact, let me plug Dr.

Moorcraft's commentaries, because his church, which is numerically, according if you're talking about the number of people who are members there, a very small church, but they are one of the largest financial supporters of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, and if you want to get

Dr. Moorcraft's commentary, which is endorsed by Joey Piper, Dr.

Joseph Piper, who was the president of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, but now he's on the faculty there, he's just retired from the presidency, but it's been endorsed by him and highly lauded by many esteemed

Reformed people. I'm just looking up the commentary website now, but you should get a hold of that, and if you do, please make sure you mention

Chris Orenson of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, so they know that you purchased it by listening to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.

The website is westminstercommentary .com westminstercommentary .com,

and it is an exposition of the theology and ethics of the

Westminster larger catechism, and it comes in eight volumes, eight large hardback volumes.

But anyway, pick up where you left off there, Jerry, do you want to move on to another issue? One thing

I do want to also mention, and I don't know if you want me to do this, but Joe has a book on Amazon, How to Worship, or How God Wants Us to Worship Him, and I would consider that a very good book also.

Wow, I don't recall Joe ever mentioning that book to me, and I don't recall seeing that, so I will have to interview him on that, unless my memory is just faulty.

I'll Oh, that was the publication date. I don't know what printing it was.

Okay, well I will have to bring that up to him the next time we have him on, which should be in the near future, because not only do

I love Dr. Moorcraft and interviewing him, but so do a growing number of my listeners.

Yeah, he's a good man. The one thing I always remember about him, we were at a conference together down in Atlanta, and he came walking in, and he was walking like Frankenstein.

Now, you know, I'm a big boy. I'm like six foot four. He's taller than me.

I think he's six foot six. He looks like a big old teddy bear, and I went up to give him a hug, and he goes, don't touch me, don't touch me.

I've got shingles, and that's what I always remember about him. So I'm sure he's over the shingles, but I had dinner with him at a pastor's house once, and like I said,

I just like sitting there talking to him. So yeah, he's a wonderful brother in Christ.

Well, now we have to go to our midway break, so let's hold off you bringing up another topic until we come back from the midway commercial break.

Please use this time wisely, folks, because it's the longer the normal break. Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully contact our advertisers.

We hope that you purchase their products, use their services, or visit their churches as often as you can, and mention

Iron Trip and Zion Radio, but when you can do none of those things, at the very least, please contact our advertisers and thank them for sponsoring the show.

That, at the very least, should go a long way in convincing our sponsors that their money is well spent because people are benefiting from this program and have gone out of their way to thank our sponsors.

So please do that, but also send in your questions to Jerry Johnson at chrisorenson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back. Don't go away. Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

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It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio,

Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the

Reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone.

Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity. For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit

HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com,

or call 678 -954 -7831. That's 678 -954 -7831.

If you visit, tell them Joe O 'Reilly, Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, and a tie in County Kildare, Ireland, sent you.

Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Cornwall, New York, and also the host of the

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Christ -honoring, Bible -believing, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church, no matter where in the world you live, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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and give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. We also have a listener in Birmingham, Alabama, Maybell.

Maybell asks, would you fellowship with a church or worship in a church that disagrees with you on images in the church building?

That's a good question. If they had images in a church building, yes.

I mean, I probably would. Now you're talking about, she didn't make clear if it was in the sanctuary, but if they have images in the church,

I don't believe in images. So I think any type of image that they would have would be a violation of the

Second Commandment. So I wouldn't even go there. I might go there one time, and then if I saw it,

I'd never go back. They came up to me and said, hey, we have images in our church.

I'd probably never go. Well, usually an evangelical wouldn't go about it that way. Yeah, remember this.

You said, what was her name, Maybell? That may be the correct pronunciation.

I said Maybell, but maybe it is Maybell. The thing is, when you look at Old Testament Israel, what always tripped them up was some sort of image.

Now, that may not happen immediately, but down the road, who knows what will happen.

But the Bible strictly forbids making images. Now, supposing, to make this question more complicated for you, a church inherits a building from another church, or perhaps is renting that church building from another church, and they have stained glass windows, and there are images of Jesus in some of those stained glass windows, because even

Protestant churches sometimes have that. Would that be annoying enough to you to not return to that church?

Yes, I mean, to me it would. Now, if a church inherits a church, like you said, a building, and do remember the old

Puritans used to call it the meeting house. Right. They didn't call it the church. Right.

But let's just say a meeting house had stained glass windows, and they had that hippie in it, then they need to bust out those windows.

Obviously, if you're renting the building, though, you can't do that. No, you can't. But I wouldn't rent it.

The Bible doesn't say don't make images, but unless you're renting, then it's okay.

Well, if somebody complains about the images depicting Jesus in the stained glass windows, you could just say, no, that's

Dan Fogelberg. No, I meant

Dan Fogelberg. The stars are in the heaven.

You know who sings that song? Dan Fogelberg sings it. Let him sing it.

You actually sing pretty good. I was gonna buy your album, but then

I thought not. Well, thank you, Mabel, for the question, and if you're a first -time questioner, please let us know, because if so, you've won a free

New American Standard Bible. So just send me your address, and I'll have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cbbbs .com,

ship that NAS Bible to you. And by the way, we want to thank, from the depths of our hearts here at Iron Trip and Zion Radio, the publishers of the

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Pew Bibles, pastors and deacons listening, go to nasbible .com,

nasbible .com. Let's see, we have

Henry in Utica, New York, who asks, what are reasons that you would not join a church that had disagreements with you?

Would you ban joining a church, for instance, that disagreed with you on eschatology, or the candidates for baptism, whether you were a

Baptist or a paedo -baptist? When it comes to eschatology, no, because I'm kind of all over the board.

The thing is, I can read a historic pre -millennial work, and I'll say, yeah, that sounds good, that's where I am.

And then I'll read an amillennial work, and I'll say, yeah, that's good, that's where I am. And then

I'll read a post -millennial work, and I'll say, yeah, that's good, that's where I am. And then the whole thing starts all over.

So when it comes to orthodoxy, the one thing I maintain is a visible, physical, second coming of Christ.

The one thing I would say, if they're dispensational, I'm not going to join them, you know.

But I have a lot of disputes with dispensationalists, but when it comes to what

I would consider the historic position of the Reformers, you have most of the

Westminster divines were amillennial. I have a lot of friends, and I don't know of any divines,

I would have to think about it, that were post -millennial, but a few of them were what we would call pre -millennial.

So I would say on the eschatology, no. But there are some things,

I mean, I will let you know, my church practices the Lord's Supper every,

I'm thinking, they used to do it every month. I think the new pastor is one that thinks they should do it every weekend, which

I agree with. But we don't do it every week in the morning service, but that is not a reason

I would. I'm not going to die on that hill. I like it better. But even if it came to baptism,

I've been on vacation, and I go to Reformed Baptist churches.

I hold my nose. Just kidding. But anyway,

I've heard a lot of people in Reformed Baptist churches that I thought were really good.

I like James White, you know, that's one guy. So if I was in Arizona, I'd probably go to his church.

I might throw spitballs at him. Obviously, you're joking about that last part.

I'm not totally. I went to a church service a couple of years ago.

They were Reformed Baptist. They had more of a contemporary music, and I found that fine.

So I don't mind that either. Yeah, I think it depends.

There are obviously different... Would I go to an Arminian church? I have before, but usually

I'm the one preaching. So I go there, and I preach, and I respect their pulpit.

I will not say anything. I've been to Pentecostal churches before, invited to them, and I talk about whatever the subject is.

But I stay off of their view of the gifts. I don't even talk about it. Yeah, in fact,

I can recall, when I used to watch your webcast,

Against the World, excellent webcast of yours, which is no longer recurring with new episodes, but I can recall one of your sponsors was a

Seventh -day Baptist church. I have to emphasize the word Baptist. They were very

Reformed. Yes, that congregation was. Yeah, they did meet on Saturday.

I'll let you know, James White and I did a conference on a cruise ship one time, and a bunch of their people came.

They were really great people. I disagreed with them about the

Saturday Sabbath, but that's not a thing I'm gonna, again, die on.

Yes, and I have listeners in my audience who are Seventh -day Baptists, and I emphasize that word because people automatically think you're saying

Seventh -day Adventist, but it's Seventh -day Baptist, which a lot of people might not know this, but it's one of the oldest denominations in the

United States, and there are congregations in the

United States that actually date all way back to the 1600s that are

Seventh -day Baptists, but that's just a trivia area. Chris, let me say this also, because I made a disparaging remark about dispensationalists.

I want people to understand, I am not saying that dispensationalists or even

Pentecostals are not Christians. Right. I do believe it's an in -house discussion.

I've met many dispensationalists that I think were more godly than I ever dreamed, and I do believe it's an in -house debate.

The thing is, I don't believe that they take their theology to its natural conclusion, and so I would not be a member of a dispensational church.

Now, if they asked me to come there and preach on the Lord's Supper, yeah, I would probably take them up on that, but I'm not going to join, and I'm not going to just go to their church for a worship service.

So there are hills I will die on, and there are hills I will not die on.

Yeah, if there was no confessional

Reform Baptist church in an area that I moved to, and there was a solid dispensational church, and I use the word solid meaning in other areas outside of its dispensationalism,

I would consider joining it and might even join it, depending upon how much the dispensationalism is emphasized.

If it's a part of every sermon, which some of these churches make their sermons almost entirely about eschatology and the end times every single week,

I couldn't stomach that, but there are dispensationalist churches that are even Calvinistic, where that takes it backstage, and it's not a dominant thing.

There are charismatic churches that are also Calvinistic, you know?

Yes. There was one, I don't think it's around anymore, but it was called

PDI, People with Destiny International. Yeah, they changed the name. I can't remember.

I think it might be the group that changed its name. Yeah, I think it was Sovereign Grace or something like that, wasn't it?

Right, yeah, Sovereign Grace Ministries. Yeah. And that would also, my uh, joining a church like that,

I don't think I could join one that was publicly demonstrating sign gifts in the worship services, because some of these churches don't.

The members do those things privately in their homes. I don't think I could handle people doing it next to me and having the pastor do it.

Oh, man, I just had a senior moment. The way

I've always approached it is, I know there's a guy that lives down the street from me.

He very much believes in the gifts of the Spirit, as he calls them.

I have never said anything to him, but one time he asked me, and I gave him an answer.

So if somebody doesn't ask me, I'm not just gonna run up to them and, you know, blow holes in them, you know, but he's a very godly man.

He's a good man. He's got a great dog. Dog comes by and sees us every once in a while.

But, uh, yeah, I'm not gonna just shoot him down because he believes in the gifts of the

Spirit. So, you know, I pick my battles. That is not one unless they ask me that I'm gonna give them an answer for.

But if they ask me, I am. If they say, hey, why don't you believe in the gifts of the

Spirit? And I do believe in the gifts of the Spirit. So I'm talking about the charismatic gifts, you know, the way they practice them.

Right. And, uh, let's see here. We have another listener from Ruble, just like the

Russian Money. Ruble, who is in Nashville, Tennessee, wants to know,

I heard you say just moments ago that you don't mind charismatic music.

I'm sorry, I misread that. Contemporary music in a worship service.

But isn't that a matter of degree? You can have a worship service that has blaring punk rock music in it that might be considered a contemporary church.

Yeah, doesn't it matter the level of noise and sound and also the melodies that may convey an atmosphere that is not worshipful?

You know, I would agree. I would agree with that. So, I mean, what they did was they took hymn music, and they had it more upbeat, and they had drums and guitars, and I thought it was okay.

Now, my church does a very traditional worship. I like that better. I have friends that are exclusive psalmists.

I do believe as a church, we've neglected the psalms. We need to sing them more.

But I'm not an exclusive psalmist. And I interviewed a guy years ago when

I used to have a podcast. His name was Frank Smith. Good guy.

Oh, I know, Frank. I haven't spoken to him in decades. I haven't either. I haven't either. When I knew him, he was pastoring in upstate

New York, a little tiny PCA church. Last time I talked with him, he went with the

RPCNA. That's the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America.

Yeah, which more resembles his beliefs. Yeah, they're exclusive psalmists, and Frank and I did an interview about an hour long, and I told

Frank at the beginning, Dr. Smith tried to convince me, and he tried, and he failed.

I was not convinced because the one thing that bothers me about the exclusive psalmist is, and I said this to Frank, are you telling me that singing the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ, which is not found in any of the psalms, is a sin?

Because most of your exclusive psalmist believes that singing anything other than the psalms is a sin.

And I said, are you telling me it's a sin? And he came back and he said, well,

Jesus is mentioned in the psalms. And I said to him, I didn't say mentioned, because I do believe there's a lot of types and shadows.

I'm talking about the actual phrase, the Lord Jesus Christ. You could say

Adonai Yahshua Messiah, or you could say Iesos Christos.

I don't care, but you're telling me that that is a sin, and I just can't buy that.

You know, it's interesting though, because the one time that I visited

Frank's church in upstate New York when he was still pastoring the PCA, they did practice in their worship service exclusive psalmody.

They did not have hymns sung in the worship service, and they also had strictly acapella worship.

When they had their fellowship time after the worship service, they went downstairs in the basement in the fellowship hall, they had a piano, and somebody was playing the piano and they were singing hymns.

Because it wasn't a worship service. Go ahead. Yeah, Dr. Smith had pastored a church in Coburg, Virginia, Coburg Presbyterian Church, and that's what they did.

What he did was they would sing two or three hymns before the call to worship, and then once they had the call to worship, they would sing only psalms.

You know, by the way, the 1599 Psalter, and I had a friend of mine, or I have a friend of mine who was really big into singing the psalms, and I was sitting there looking at the psalm book, and I said, do you know every single psalm in this psalm book can be sung to Johnny Cash's tune,

Folsom Prince of Blues, and he was like, don't tell me that. Anyway, he thought it was funny.

And those are obviously matters that we can agree to disagree over. It'd be harder for a person who was an exclusive psalm, exclusive psalmody person to join a church that had hymns in it than the reverse.

I wouldn't have a problem going to that church and even joining. Like I said,

I believe the church has neglected the psalms. The one thing you won't get when you're singing the psalms is bad theology.

I do think it's very good in that regard, you know, and sometimes

I see hymns. I'm thinking of that one. I really love it, but oh man, it says, oh,

I'm not going to say that. Prone to wonder, Lord, I feel it. Feel it?

I'm prone to wonder, or wander, because I know it, because His Word tells me that.

It's not because I feel, you know, so. Yes, and when you said that you won't get bad theology.

Now I'm going to be singing that song all day long, the rest of the day. When you said that you can't get bad theology, singing psalms exclusively, you mean in the singing of the psalms, because there are horrible churches that may have exclusive psalm.

I didn't hear your question, but that was a statement, actually.

Say it again? That was a statement. I wasn't asking a question. I was basically saying, I was clarifying what you said.

I know you agree with me that just because a church sings psalms exclusively doesn't mean that their preaching and teaching otherwise is sin.

But the one thing I would say, if they're singing the psalms, you're not getting bad theology.

In the singing of the psalms. Right. Right. Yeah, I'm sorry.

I see what you're saying now. Okay. Let's see here.

Oh, well, this has to do with something I mentioned earlier. We have, excuse me, we have a buck in Greensboro, North Carolina, who said, are you ever going to bring

Against the World back? Oh, man, you know, I've watched those every blue moon.

And I'm sitting there thinking, I wish I'd never ended that.

And I say that every time I watch one. But unfortunately, no.

I don't know if you could tell right now. In the evening time, it gets hard for me to talk because of my stroke, that it makes me real tired.

I'll let you know this brother and I love doing your show. So don't stop asking me.

All right. But when I know I have to do your show, I take a nap at lunch.

I mean, I have to I don't work out this day because I don't want to get tired. But when we're off the air,

I'll go sit in my easy chair. And I don't want anybody to interrupt me, not my wife or my mom or my dogs.

Well, as long as you don't take a nap during the show when when I'm interviewing. We have to go to our final break right now.

And if you have a question, send it in before we run out of time to Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com.

Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com, as always, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, New York, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sulay Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

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Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew

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Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com, to place your order.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comac, Long Island.

I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother,

Chris Arnson, in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today. I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian Literature for decades now,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Well, with the economic nightmare that we're all currently enduring, cvbbs .com,

I want to enable you to build a wonderful personal library of the best literature that the

Reformers, the Puritans, and the great Christian minds of today have to offer and at affordable prices.

Not only does cvbbs .com offer up to 50 % off retail prices, but you'll get an added 5 % off orders of $50 or more by using promo code

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Oh, and make sure that you tell them you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

This is Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program.

SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings, municipalities, churches, commercial properties, and much more.

We can be reached at securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com.

But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

He sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

God bless you. Welcome back, folks. I also want to remind you that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco and Associates.

My dear friend Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, has been sponsoring everything that I've set my hand to do ever since I began working for WMCA 570

AM Christian Radio in 1991. He also was not only my biggest advertiser there, but when

I started doing the great debates with Dr. James R. White and Roman Catholic apologists, he was sponsoring those debates every year, which lasted a decade on Long Island.

Of course, I've done many other debates. I've arranged many other debates in other venues in different parts of the country featuring

Dr. White, but Dan Buttafuoco is always sponsoring everything that I'm doing, and he is one of the sponsors of Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio.

So please, if you love this show, return the favor to Dan. And if you are the victim of a serious personal injury or medical malpractice, call

Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit his website at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com.

That's no matter where you live in the United States. So you can call him no matter what state you live in in the

United States, and he will make sure that you are very wonderfully representative in the court of law.

That's 1 -800 -NOW -HURT or 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com. It's very important that you mention

Chris Arnzen of Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio when you contact Dan Buttafuoco.

Also, I want to welcome to the Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio family of advertisers, Trinity Reform Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which happens to be the church where I am now a member, pastored by Simon O'Maney.

If you want more details on Trinity Reform Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, visit their website, trbccarlisle .org,

trbccarlisle .org. And also, another new advertiser sponsoring this program with an annual advertising contract are our friends at the

Federal Credit Union in Lebanon, Pennsylvania, Lebanon Federal Credit Union.

Now, if you want more details on this fine institution, go to lebanonfcu .org,

lebanonfcu .org. You will be hearing the full -blown 60 -second commercials for both of these wonderful sponsors shortly, as soon as we have them available to us.

We have, let's see, we have,

I was just looking at the question. Oh, Toby in Whitehall, Pennsylvania wants to know,

I hear you every day when you conduct your broadcast asking for donations and also selling advertising.

I am not personally accusing you of this, but how do you respond to people who say that you are violating the teaching in Proverbs chapter 23, verse 23, buy the truth and sell it not?

Well, that's very interesting. Excuse me. I know people that have used that verse,

I believe, incorrectly, obviously, or wouldn't be asking for donations or selling advertising.

I've heard people use that to prohibit the selling of books,

Christian books, the selling of Christian DVDs, MP3s, and so on and so on, even the charging of admission

Bible conferences. I disagree with that, obviously.

And even if you look at the entire verse, it says, buy the truth and sell it not, also wisdom and instruction and understanding.

Obviously, what this verse is saying, and I'll have Jerry Johnson chime in, who actually has some seminary education behind him, which

I do not, but I have heard for decades from people who

I esteem highly, that what this means is, if you possess truth, you're not to release it from your possession.

In other words, it's really saying, you know, don't be a sellout, don't abandon the truth for money or gain of any kind, and that is not what happens when you raise money on a radio show and podcast or sell advertising or sell books.

But anyway, Jerry, you want to chime in? You know, brother, I don't know if I'm going to comment on that direct passage, but I will say this, because I got that question one time on the

Amazing Grace documentary, and I told him, hey, if somebody comes up to me and asks me why

I believe this stuff, I'm going to tell them free of charge. If they want to get it in a digital format, we had to fly all over the country.

We had to, you know, do the interviews, stay in hotels, drive.

The guy that was filming the interviews had to be paid.

We had to do a lot of stuff that cost money. And so we asked people, you know, to support this.

And when it was done, the costs were done because it cost us money to get the

DVDs made. I will tell you, we did not sell them for an exorbitant price.

We had the DVD Amazing Grace at $29 .95, and we did flat rate shipping.

Somebody could order a hundred, and we did shipping at $5 .95. We ate the cost of that.

It cost more than $5 .95 to ship it. So, you know, it's something like that.

I don't charge admission if people want to come and talk to me. And by the way, that leads me on to something.

I'm going to be in Dallas, Texas next year or this year at the Southern Baptist Convention.

That is June 11th, 8th through the 11th. Now, just to let you know,

I work in an industry that is going to cause us to be there. So if somebody is listening that's a member of the

Southern Baptist Church, they plan on being there, come on by our booth. Oh, that's for your sign business.

Yes. Okay. And by the way, obviously, another thing to add in there, as far as Zyron Sharp and Zyron is concerned, donating to my show and advertising in my show is optional.

I don't require it for people to listen to the show. But at the same time, I fully support publishers and people who sell things that are

Christian in nature, and I don't think that they are, for a second, violating this text. I do know ministries that will only give away for free

Christian books and literature, like First Love Ministries, who live streamed this program.

They have a First Love Publishing Ministry, and they only give away everything that they publish.

But they do not believe that every publisher is somehow committing some horrible sin by selling the books.

And so I think it's clearly to be exegeted that we are not to let go of the possession of truth, especially because of financial gain, like many people who know that they would lose their job if they continue being public with their

Christianity. Hey, brother, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back or anything.

You said the sign business. I worked for a sign company and left that company to do

Nicene Council. I took a 50 % pay cut, and I'm not saying it was easy.

I mean, a lot of times, it wasn't. But I so believed in the Reformed faith that I wanted to get out there, but my family still needed to live.

They still needed to eat. They still needed a warm place. Right.

And another thing that you could add to this is if you are buying the truth, as the text says, and to sell the truth, meaning selling a

Christian book, is sin, then you are perpetuating the sin of the person selling the truth if you're buying it.

So that's just another thing to throw in there. Yeah, I mean, you are, you are. But you think of like Bible translations, a lot has to go into that.

Then the printing has to go into that. Then the distribution has to go into that, you know.

So I would love for them to tell me what they are going to do. I knew a guy that was translating a whole bunch of books into Bulgarian.

He sat at his computer and did it every single day, you know.

Oh, and by the way, it would also prohibit pastors from receiving a salary.

Now, I know that there are ministries and churches that do believe that a pastor should not be paid.

I am not one of them. But that would also, in this case, prohibit that if you were going to take it in a wooden, literal sense.

But by the way, Toby in Greensboro, North Carolina, if you are a first -time questioner, let me know because you have also won a free

New American Standard Bible, compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cbbbs .com,

who will ship it out to you, and also compliments of the publishers of the

NASB, one of our largest advertisers, nasbible .com,

nasbible .com. And I also, I perhaps failed to mention this earlier, I want to thank them for renewing their sponsorship of this program.

But you have about five minutes now, Jerry, to summarize anything that you want most to be etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

The one thing I would say to go back to the original thesis is, in our culture, in our churches,

Reformed Protestant churches, we have fallen into the trap of one of the reasons that we left

Rome. And we venerate these images, and we say they're

Jesus. They're really nothing more than a hippie with a beard. And if God would have wanted us to know what

Christ looked like, he would have, like I said, had digital cameras or Polaroids in the first century.

We don't. We don't know what he looked like, and we don't want to know what he looked like. Well, thanks,

Jerry. Before we go, I want to remind our listeners that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio does need your financial support, folks.

So, if you really love the show, I'm urging you to go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.

And you can donate instantly with a debit or credit card if you prefer a snail mail. There will also be a physical address that appears on your screen where you can click support at ironsharpensironradio .com,

and you'll see the physical address where you can mail your checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Also, I want to remind my listeners, continue to pray for my sister

Mary in West Babylon, Long Island. She requires very serious surgery that will involve either the amputation of a part of her right foot or her entire leg going all the way up to above the knee.

She has a circulatory problem that has caused this. She's not diabetic, but she has a serious circulatory problem that is preventing the healing of a wound on her foot.

And these are the options the doctors have given her so far. Please pray for her, pray for the doctors, and pray for God to do something, whether miraculously or medically, that would alleviate or remove the need for this level of surgery.

But if she needs to get the surgery, please let her have nothing but the most skillful surgeons involved in it.

Also, please pray for her mentally and emotionally, and much more than either of those things spiritually.

Please pray that she's drawn closer to Jesus Christ than she ever has been before.

Last but not least, I want to plug my show tomorrow. I've got

Pastor Austin Huggins, who is the new addition to the pastoral team at Mount Zion Bible Church in Pensacola, Florida, the home of Chapel Library.

He's going to be joined by Edward Delcor. Both of these men are also on the staff of First Love Ministries that I mentioned earlier, the ministry that live -streams this show every day.

They are going to be on the program, and they'll be discussing a Bible conference coming up later this month.

So I hope you tune in, and I will let you know tonight through social media the topic that we will be addressing and so on.

So I hope that you tune in tomorrow. I want to thank you all again for praying for me and my health.

As most of you know, I have congestive heart failure, and I have blood clots in my heart and lung.

Pray that they are dissolved and that I continue to improve in my health. I apologize that I've been coughing occasionally during this interview and sometimes

I'm muting the microphone, which creates pauses of silence, but please continue to pray for me and that I have a clean bill of health soon.

I want to thank all of you who have been, the hundreds and hundreds of you who have been contacting me primarily through social media and email and text, telling me, reassuring me that you are praying for me.

You'll never know how much that means to me. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater