EPIC Show with Allie Stuckey & Jeff Durbin!

Jeff Durbin’s Ministry, Church Planting, and Pro-Life Work

Jeff thanks so much for joining me. Oh, it's my pleasure. Absolutely my pleasure.

Yeah, so if you could just take a second to tell everyone who may not be aware who you are what you do. Where you come from?

Well, I'm the pastor at Apologia Church a pastor at Apologia Church and our church came out of a drug and alcohol Rehab hospital. I was the full-time chaplain there for four years at a hospital. I was also pastoring somewhere else and so many people were Coming out of addiction to drugs and alcohol and coming to Christ at that facility that became very very clear that we needed to care for them and.

And people were coming from all over the country actually to this hospital. And so God was doing something really amazing there and so we took a huge risk and we planted Apologia Church at the hospital and That was about ten years ago.

And so that's that's where our church began. As a church we are involved in a lot of Well, a lot of a lot of outreach in different areas in different communities public debate with atheists. To different outreach to different kind of cultic movements.

We have also have a very significant ministry and outreach in the area of abortion and so we started end abortion now, it's just really a banner over a Christian approach a very vocal gospel centered Christian approach in the area of abortion.

We started that a couple years ago. We now have over 400 churches globally who are under that banner and going out and saving children at the actual abortion clinics. Offering help and love and assistance to mothers and fathers who are bringing their children there and we just started in November actually bringing The message to local legislatures Across the country and that started in November and since that time it's it's really been Having significant growth all across the country with churches pastors Christian leaders.

It just Christians mothers and fathers children going out and speaking to the legislatures.

Worldview, No Neutrality, and the Lordship of Christ

You have so many resources out there when I first heard about you, which was Maybe almost a year ago now you had been in the game for much longer than before that much longer than before that if as you just described and I couldn't figure out.

Okay, what does this person exactly do. Because I feel like there are like three different podcasts with his name on it. He's got a church with his name on it. He's got all these ministries with his name on it.

And then I just realized that you are a part of a lot of different things and Your message is the same of course in all the things that you do in all the podcasts that you host in all the ministries that you lead and.

That really is the gospel of Christ and being bold in that and calling people into a proper theology which as we know right now is extremely important and also sadly extremely rare. So I want to I want to ask you about that in and when you kind of Realized maybe this was ten years ago or before that when you kind of realized your role in Engaging the culture and engaging people outside of the church and in the church with a gospel that seems to be increasingly.

Rarely preached properly at least in the United States. That's right. Yeah, so it really come. It's it's really nothing. Nothing special about me. I mean what we're doing is not Historically interesting in terms of the Christian Church historically it really comes down to Worldview and I know we hear this word kicked around a lot in our Christian communities a lot, but it needs to be understood and that is that there is according to Scripture no neutrality.

There is no neutrality. Romans chapter 1 says that everyone knows God. The problem isn't a lack of light or evidence for God's existence. We all know the true God, but we are holding down that truth because we're all broken.

We're all fallen. We're all little rebels against the king. And so we hold that truth down and we exchange God for a lie. That's just the pattern of image bearers of God who are in a broken relationship with God who are fallen.

And so none of us are neutral towards God at all and that is fundamentally the Christian message is that we're all lost we're all broken we're all in need of a Savior and With that fallenness comes a hostility a rebellion and it comes out in so many different areas of life.

And so the fundamental aspect of the Christian message is that Jesus is God in the flesh who came to rescue the rebels to save Sinners and he comes into a world that is opposed to him and he says things like whoever's not with me is against me.

That's a bold claim. Whoever's not with me is against me. I mean That's one of those claims that we don't hear often in Evangelical churches in the West today like preached and proclaimed like boldly like whoever's not with me is against me.

That's Jesus claim Jesus saying things like if anyone is ashamed of me and my words Of him that will the son of man be ashamed when it comes in his glory and Jesus comes with a message that actually is Very different than you hear in the common Evangelical church in the West in the 21st century where he when he preaches to crowds of people thousands of people He actually turns him away.

He says some hard things to them like if you don't come to die. Then don't come and he says things like you have to you have to hate mother father sister brother wife and even your own life. And that's not like a moral evil hatred.

It's in terms of loving Jesus less than yeah, if you don't love him more than the most close relationships. He says don't even come and that's of course a very different gospel than is often propagated today in our culture in modern Evangelicalism in the West and when you ask the question like okay, where's this coming from?

It's all encompassing because Jesus claimed to have all authority in heaven and on earth as a matter of fact in Matthew 28. That's the last thing of his is departure in Matthew 28 that he says is he says all Authority in heaven and all Christians say yes to that.

Well, of course, he's king over heaven. He has all authority there. No angels are disobeying him there. But there's actually a next part to it where Jesus says and on earth all authority and here on earth has been Past tense given to me and so that Great Commission is not simply to go out and save souls for heaven one day.

Which of course that was what salvation? Brings this reconciliation peace with God we go of course to heaven. We have eternal life as a gift through faith in Jesus. But he says go and disciple the nations and teach them to obey and so the Christian message historically was all encompassing and if you look at Christian history as Christians went with the good news of the kingdom of good news of salvation into the world.

They would win entire nations entire Continents to Christ and those people understood the message of Jesus in such a way is that when I come to Jesus to believe in him. For salvation, I'm believing in a person who has a work and this is a person who is Lord.

I mean the fundamental Christian confession is that Jesus is king of kings and Lord of Lords now that means something. That means that Jesus has all authority over every aspect of life up into the Kings.

He has authority over them. The promise in the scriptures of salvation to the ends of the earth also was that The father was giving to Jesus The ends of the earth as his possession. And so when someone says like well, what's apology a church doing in all these areas?

We're really just trying to communicate with love with respect and gentleness and Compassion the message of the Christian worldview and the good news of the gospel in every area of life. So whether that means in the family whether that means in the church or that means even in the state.

We believe that that what's broken in our culture in the West today say just take our nation like United States of America. We started off a very strong biblical worldview and foundations not to say that everybody was Christian.

It's just to say that it was in the atmosphere. There was an understanding that the biblical worldview was the standard. It was the reference point. It was the principium. It was the starting point of all things.

So even down to say John Jay our first Supreme Court justice. When he was pointing to case law and creating case law for our nation as the Supreme Court as the justice he was actually Explicitly referencing case law from the Old Testament itself in terms of pointing to not himself as the standard.

But this is what God says. God's the reference point and that's critical because in our day Ali and you you address these sorts of things all the time and I love I love what you're doing I truly do. When when we are the reference point as we are today human beings.

We say the basic predominant worldview in our day taught and propagated in the public school system. In the West is that all of us are cosmic accidents. We come from highly evolved societies of bacteria.

We've come from the goo to you I mean we were once fish that evolved in this purposeless cosmos and all of us are just Adams sort of banging around. There is no purpose there is no meeting there is no ultimate truth.

There is nothing good. Nothing evil only blind and pitiless indifference that's what Richard Dawkins says in his book River out of Eden when you take that worldview and We become the reference point human beings when we determine what is right and wrong.

Then there is no absolute truth. There is no absolute right or wrong. It becomes chaos. We don't really know anymore if a man is a man or a woman is a woman. We don't really know anymore or well, we're pretty certain that it's perfectly acceptable to kill an innocent.

Developing unborn human being in the womb because well, it satisfies my needs because there's no ultimate truth above me. I'm the reference point. It's my choice. It's nothing to do with God and his claims and his decrees and his choices his will it's really me.

I'm the reference point. So we have gone to a place where we say we don't want God and his ultimate authority. We're the ultimate authorities we say we don't want a theocracy where God is the reference point in his laws the standard his word is The standard we don't believe in that kind of stuff.

We the people. Democracy will be the standard and of course that means that our God is Demas. We are the people we are the gods of our system and the challenge with us being the gods of our system is if we're The reference point then there is no ethical standard that's absolute and it will always change and ebb and flow over time.

So what we're doing is trying to communicate the lordship of Christ the beauty of the biblical worldview. And of course the gospel into every area of life from the family to gun control to abortion. To taxation, whatever the situation may be we say God's the reference point.

We're not I have about.

Why the Church Must Not Be Seeker-Sensitive

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And so I have filed all all these away in my head these questions, so we'll see how many I can actually recall. But you said something about Jesus turning people away with the kinds of messages that he was giving because they were offensive.

I'm offended my my fleshly self is offended by the charge that I need to hate my father and mother. My fleshly self is offended by the call to come and die. And so in my flesh I want to turn away from that and What we see a lot today in churches is that because that's offensive in a lot of ways because that hurts people's feelings.

Or it hurts the natural self. They won't say it. We hear the term seeker friendly churches. And so we're just going to talk about the parts of the Bible that we think feel good make you feel loved. Accepted wanted all of these things which you know that in and of itself not is not necessarily bad.

But that alone without the call to repentance without the call to come and die is not the gospel. So can you tell me like how did we get here? Is it just kind of what you were saying of? Allowing those of us who are in the church to use ourselves as reference points.

Worshiping the God of self rather than the God of Scripture and so everything kind of just submits to what we think. How did we get to that point where we're no longer really preaching the gospel in churches?

Well, it's difficult to say because there is definitely a theological pedigree that got us to the chaos the theological chaos that we're in today In the 21st century in the West. I think that if you look at it theologically from the foundations We don't want God.

There is no God seeker Romans chapter 3. There's no no one who seeks for God and we don't like to hear that message Today because we like to think more highly of ourselves, but if we don't understand the true nature of our condition.

We're not going to understand the glory of God's love and his graciousness in the gospel and so I think that fundamentally we're appealing to The you said at the flesh and people we want to entertain.

We've abandoned sort of a well a biblical of course, but a historical view of the nature of the church Itself and the purpose of the church to call the world to come to salvation to obedience to Jesus.

We've we've lost that and we want really to say well No What what success looks like is a heck of a lot of people sitting in our pews, right? So what do we have to do and there's even and I won't mention their name at the moment now to take us off.

Course, but there are well-known sort of you know Popular pastors in our day who have actually said that they've gone out and Actually gone to their communities and asked questions. Like what do you not like about the church?

What would you prefer to see in the church? How would you like your church experience to be and taking notes on that and then developing the church on the basis of what the Lost would like to see in the church hates and now we have churches that are literally built on entertainments rather than worship of God and that it comes with a very very Significant theological confusion about what the church is.

The church is supposed to be going into the world to win the world. The church is not supposed to be the hot spot of evangelism. The church is supposed to actually be those who have come into a relationship of peace with God.

Come to actually worship him to grow in him to be transformed to fellowship to love and then they're supposed to be sent Into the world to go win the world to go into the public square. To win the world.

And this gets to your question in terms of the offensive message. If you read the book of Acts, that's the ancient record of the church when you read the book of Acts. You don't see the kind of evangelical methodology that we have so popular today in terms of creating the church as the hot spot of evangelism.

They're going into the public square. They're going and actually being godly troublemakers and preaching the gospel to the degree that The gospel that Jesus preached. Made people want to kill him the gospel that Paul was preaching Acts chapter 9 as soon as it comes to Christ.

It says that people are coming to Christ. The church is built up. It's being multiplied and it says some people wanted to kill him. So he was going out to actually argue with people. About the truthfulness of the Christian message and then people wanted him dead.

The church was growing but they wanted to kill him. People are taking oaths not to even eat until Paul's dead. I think many evangelical pastors today would look at what Paul did there in the book of Acts and they'd say Paul.

I think there's a better way. And you see of course Peter. And preaching the gospel and trying to engage people with love with compassion. But with truth it says that they bring him back in and they're like didn't we tell you to stop speaking in his name?

And Peter's response was we must obey God rather than men and then they take a beating for Jesus. And then they go out rejoice and that they were counted worthy to even suffer for Jesus and they continue to preach and I see.

That alley I see that today so much with with brave women like you and brave Commentators who are engaging in the public square and many Christians are like you shouldn't be stepping on toes like that.

You shouldn't be causing offense like that. But what I see there is actually something that more is modeled after the kind of evangelism we see from Jesus and the apostles where they went into the public square with the truths of God and the gospel and they engaged in Conflict with love with grace and compassion, but people hated them for it.

Now we can't say that must mean you're failing. No darkness always flees from the light. But I'll just say one last word here Jesus said you're the salt and you're the light. Salt was a preservative that stopped things from spoil and decay and light scatters darkness.

If we're not doing these things, I don't think we're being faithful as a church.

Biblical Justice, Social Justice, and the Church’s Public Witness

You talk a lot about engaging the culture obviously something I'm passionate about as well. But you talk a lot about justice and it was actually you I listened to one podcast episode I don't remember where it was from because I've been trying to wrap my mind around the Christians role in earthly Justice and what that looks like and there's a lot of confusion and I'll say there's even been a lot of confusion on my part about social justice and the difference between biblical justice and what we hear about social justice and if Biblical social justice is different than you know, secular social justice, which we know it is and all of that.

But I probably would have said that I agree with some Christian leaders that I know you and I both respect. That said, you know justice is not really justice on earth is not really a Christians role. It's kind of you know something later I probably would have I probably would have agreed with that at one point and then I started thinking about my own Hypocrisy that well, I don't think that in relation to abortion I don't think that in relation to free speech or or whatever it is so there is some hypocrisy but it was I was doing that because I Thought that I was doing the right thing in separating myself from secular social Justicians that were using Jesus's word in the wrong way to say this is what biblical justice looks like.

I thought that I was separating myself from progressive Christians, but then I realized well, no, I'm just kind of being a hypocrite. So can you kind of help me and maybe help the audience? Navigate what that looks like how a Christian does engage justice in civic life in a way that honors God.

That isn't like the secular justice left or social justice left. But also isn't just saying well, I'm hands-off. I don't care about any of this stuff because you know, I'm going to heaven one day.

That's right. Yeah, so it comes it comes down to at the same time. There's a little bit of Gnostic. And even Greek philosophy and worldview that sort of infected the modern church in terms of thinking of the spiritual.

We want to escape to the physical doesn't matter. There's and that could be a whole discussion in itself. But there is a lot of Greek philosophy that's infected the church in terms of the better is escaping the physical to get to the spiritual.

Whereas I just want to say this Jesus was raised in a physical body for a reason. The resurrection is the beginning of the new creation. God is concerned with this world and this life very much. So also there's a fundamental thing underneath all of what I'm gonna say.

And that's this. Jesus says all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. That was first century y 'all that was before the Ascension which by the way We all agree was Jesus sitting on his throne at the right hand of power with all authority.

Putting all of his enemies under his feet. That's that is the most quoted verse in the New Testament from the old now I think it needs to be grabbed hold of it says in the New Testament. From the Old Testament more than any other verse alluded to or quoted is that he must reign.

Jesus reigns. Until all of his enemies are put under his feet as a footstool for his feet all authority belongs to Jesus. So that's fundamental here. So when we look at the world around us. We can't say as Christians God has no concern with this because he's told us he does all authority there and here Belongs to him.

So any area of life where an image-bearer of God is being oppressed or there is evil in the world. We're the salt and we're the light commanded to go win the world. Don't forget. It's the meek who shall inherit the earth.

Let that set for a minute. The meek shall inherit the earth not the unrighteous not the wicked not the not the people who hate God the meek shall inherit the earth. We're supposed to pray. Jesus teaches us to pray.

He says pray your kingdom come your will be done on earth as It is in heaven and the question we have to ask ourselves is just how tightly guarded is the will of God in heaven. Pretty tightly guarded and we have to have that same perspective of here on this earth.

I would say this in terms of not having a long discussion here. But the Old Testament is replete with examples of Messianic prophecy about Jesus and about his work in the world. That is not simply about going to heaven one day.

The promise in Isaiah 2 is that God's going to draw the nations and his Torah his law is going to go forth from the people of God. Isaiah 42 is a promise where it says that the Messiah himself will establish justice on the earth and he won't go Faint or weary until he's done.

So and his law is good. The coastlands are waiting for his law for his standards of justice. So there's Messianic prophecy through and through the Bible that shows that God is concerned that he is going to establish justice.

And here's the question to ask. How does that happen? Well, it doesn't happen by dropping law down on top of people. It happens through the proclamation of the good news the call to repentance and faith and people's hearts are changed.

They fall in love with Jesus and they love his law and his standards. So that's the first and foremost. But I think there's it's important for us to recognize that when we see evil in the world around us.

It's the call of God that we actually go and we confront that evil. You see it from the beginning to the end of God's revelation, but more specifically. I'll just say this in Isaiah chapter 1 God actually speaks to his people about their worship and he says to them he says that he doesn't want their worship and He tells them that they need to cease to do evil learn to do good they need to seek justice.

Correct oppression and bring justice to the fatherless to plead the widow's cause that passage is right. Above the famous passage that I hope all of us know as Christians if you know the Lord where God says come.

Let us reason together says the Lord though your sins are as scarlet to be white as snow. He says he'll cleanse us of all of our sin. But that's after God says cease to do evil learn to do good seek justice correct Oppression bring justice to the fatherless.

And so the question is as Christians Does God care and the answer is God is unchanging? He's immutable. He says he cares over and over and over again and corrects his people for not being concerned with justice.

But there's a second question that needs to be asked and that's this by what standard is something just and I want to say that Christians the only certainty we have is when God has spoken and if God has spoken in an area of justice or injustice.

Then that's God's standard his principle standard against that Injustice and so when we engage the world, we have to avoid being like even the professing Christian liberal Social justice warriors who want to say God's concerned with justice, but when they point to what that would look like.

They're not pointing to Scripture. They're actually borrowing capital from the left and I'm going to say for those on the left that reject the scriptures. They don't really have any coherent appeal to justice in the first place because they don't have a workable worldview by which to decry Injustice, so I want to say as Christians.

We must be concerned with justice because God is just. He always does what is just and he is concerned with what happens here in this world. We're supposed to win the world with the gospel and as our hearts changed our change.

We love God's law and his truth, but I'll just say this quickly Ali. That's one of the most challenging verses for me Isaiah 1 bring justice to the fatherless correct oppression. Now there's explicit command to actually hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter rescue those, you know We're being led away to death.

Of course, that's there. But God actually tells us people seek justice correct oppression bring justice to the fatherless and in the area of abortion. That is the identification of fatherless children people being abandoned by their fathers.

So the command of God and he's unchanging is for his people to correct oppression and bring justice to the fatherless. I.

Government, Law, and the Limits of State Power

Wonder where I think this is a little bit where it gets difficult for a lot of Christians is kind of where the government Is supposed to step in and where we are supposed to advocate for legislation. Versus where we're supposed to advocate for freedom from government and certain things.

I would say that maybe there's a lot of people on the left to agree with our definition of justice. But they simply believe that the federal government is the best vehicle by which that justice can come and they have a different.

Maybe they do have a little bit of a different view of justice. I think a lot of times they see justice is completely equal. Outcomes guaranteed. No matter what even if that's forced mediocrity through something like socialism.

Which is is different than what I would say the Bible says. But how do. How do we know the balance. How do we strike the balance between pushing for certain legislation that protects the unborn and Saying okay.

This is not a place for the federal government. This is just a place for us to go in and share the gospel or I don't know. Is it both at the same time or how do we discern? Yeah.

Well, first and foremost the system of a government that we have or are supposed to have today is. We did not come to us from a humanist or secularist or atheistic worldview it was explicitly a Christian worldview in terms of how we view the role of the state and the role of the church as a matter of Fact that terminology that we often use today a separation of church and state.

That's not formal. It's not in our documents. It was just something that was Understood it was in the atmosphere separation of church and state never meant separation of God and state. That idea of separation of church and state actually comes from Lo and behold the Bible itself and that is that there are two distinct Organizations the church and the state both are to be under God.

But both are not supposed to ultimately try to take over one or the other in sense of ruling one another. They are distinct offices and actually in the Old Testament You have examples of God actually punishing Kings for trying to actually take authority in the church.

So two distinct Offices in a sense organization. I've never actually heard it explained like that. Yes, and so but both were to be under God and and when someone says well, what's what is the role of the state?

Well Romans 13 says that those are God's deacons now remember what that says a lot of times Christians will quote that and Ali they'll quote it to you and I as Christians trying to engage these cultural issues from from a biblical worldview or standing on this in some way.

They'll say no that you roll the government submit to submit to those. You know, that's that those are God's servants, right and submit to their authority. Well think about what Paul is saying. He's in pagan Rome at the time and what does he call the governing authorities in terms of their ordained role before God?

He says they are God's deacons. The word there in the Greek is deacon servant. Really Rome pagan Rome Caesar. Paul says yeah, that's the that's actually how this works. Is that that is God's ordained.

Or Organization that is his servant whose servant not the servant of some other God. His servant to do what to wield the sword of justice. So when someone says what's the role of the state? Well a biblical biblical.

And redeemed perspective of the role of the state is that it's supposed to wield the sword of justice. It's supposed to here. It is punish Evildoers, so the role of the state is not supposed to be your mommy.

It's not supposed to be your daddy. It's not supposed to be the thing that's feeding you and caring for you. The role of the state biblically is to punish people who would do evil so people who murder people the state's supposed to step in and to be that that Organization or that authority that actually executes justice whenever they whenever there's a situation like rape or theft or anything like that.

It's supposed to be God's servant to wield a sword of justice. Those who are not lawbreakers the righteous are not supposed to fear that Organization that organization is supposed to protect people in terms of wielding the sword of justice but you never ever have in Scripture the idea that the state is supposed to take the function or role of The church in terms of caring for the needs of the poor.

Giving just taking people's money through coercion and giving it out to other people. The state is not supposed to have that function and I want to just say this just as an aside. Hopefully this will wet people's appetite and get them interested in this in the Old Testament you have an example of war Israel.

Looked at all the kings of the world and they wanted a king like all the other Pagan nations had and so what God does is he actually punishes Israel and he says no they can have a king. Give give him a king.

I'm their king, but they didn't want me. So let him have a king and here's what he's gonna do to them. He's gonna take their children to war and he's gonna tax them at 10 That was a punishment 10 he that the state would actually think it would have the audacity to think that it was worthy of the tithe.

That it could take 10 of people's income and God says that'll be punishment. So actually God in that in that moment there gives us an example. It's a punishment upon people when they have a state that believes that it has a right to people's income even to a 10 level.

And it's a punishment in terms of the state when it become when it thinks it's God. It takes people's children to war. And what we have today in and I'm not saying war is always a bad thing. War is something's a necessary thing and the state should be involved in those things.

But when you have a state that's overblown and it's overstepping its God-ordained boundaries of just executing justice. You have a state that ultimately thinks that it's the authority that it defines ethics that it ultimately can control land.

Property and the danger of the state that we have today is it doesn't even look to God's law as authoritative to say well What ought we to do the state determines for itself? What is right and wrong and the danger in that and just think about this philosophically for a second?

If if we the people determine what is right and wrong if the reference point is us in history We say what you ought to do or what you ought not to do. We say what is good. What is evil then that means that you can never chastise?

Anybody in history for what they chose to do as a people why. Because they were the reference point. So if you take the standard we have today Which is not God's Word not the biblical standard and you say we're that we're the standard and source.

Then that means that we can no longer challenge the atrocities that took place where there was Kidnapping of black people and enslaving them why? Because that culture and society at that time determined for themselves that we ought to be able to do this now mind you.