Is It OK to Meme Our Fathers in the Faith into Oblivion?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the work of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:35

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, is it okay to meme our fathers in the faith into oblivion?

01:45

Now Tim, as we kick this episode off, what Bible verse do you have for us related to memeing your fathers in the faith into oblivion?

01:54

Yeah, so 1 Timothy 5, 1 says, Do not rebuke an older man, but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers.

02:01

So maybe that has something to do with it. I mean, I didn't hear anything directly about memeing, so that verse obviously must not apply to our question, in my mind at least.

02:16

Yeah, I mean, so the idea, the ESV translates that as do not rebuke an older man.

02:22

King James, yeah, it sticks with the language of rebuke. The NASB says do not sharply rebuke an older man, so I think there is something to be said about not sharply rebuking an older man.

02:35

I mean, some other things to consider as you're talking about this are the fifth commandment in general, to honor your father and mother.

02:44

So I think that has primary relevance here to the topic of memeing, as well as the idea of rebuke in general.

02:52

So, I mean, most of what's happening in the memeing into oblivion concept is there is a notion of rebuke there, but I do think there is an honoring of father and mother that should apply to this as well.

03:04

As an example, in the Old Testament, you have, essentially, Noah has gotten himself drunk, and he's laying uncovered, and Ham notices it, and he brings his brother

03:18

Shem and Japheth in order to see it and to make a spectacle of him. Now, I mean, some people think that this is an example of him doing something sexual to his father.

03:29

Violating, yes. Yeah, I don't really think that's really what comes to the forefront in the passage at all.

03:36

I mean, I imagine a person could think that way, but really, I mean, you have the idea of nakedness as shame, so it's shameful.

03:42

You have Ham, basically, instead of covering the shame of his father's nakedness, he's exposing it to ridicule, so he brings his brother

03:50

Long in order to make sport of him, at the very least. So whether or not there was something else going on,

03:56

I really don't think that was the case, but at the very least, you have this idea of covering your father's shame, not exposing it to ridicule, so I think that would be pretty direct, relevant to the concept that we're talking about today, like with memeing your father's in the faith to oblivion.

04:15

So I would think that if one of your fathers in the faith are doing something shameful, you wouldn't want to hold him up to scorn and contempt as a matter of honoring them.

04:27

So there's just different rules for authority relationships. There's different rules for age -related issues in the

04:33

Bible, and I would think that we would do well to try to follow them. Right, yeah, and just to provide some context behind this question because I don't know that many people are asking, hey, am

04:47

I allowed to meme my father's in the faith into oblivion? The context behind this has a lot to do with this controversy that has been going on between guys like Joel Webben and Doug Wilson, James White, and Tobias Ramenschneider.

05:06

I don't know if that's how you say his last name or not, which is funny because I also have a

05:13

German last name, and I can't remember how to pronounce his. It's very German. Very German.

05:20

Yeah, it's like the stereotypical German last name. Like if you were to make up a joke name, that's kind of what it feels like it would be.

05:28

It's very stereotypical. Essentially, there are a lot of people who would view in this whole debacle, there are a lot of people who disagree with the way

05:42

Doug Wilson and James White specifically have handled their part in it.

05:47

I don't know that it's necessarily helpful or worth our time to go into all of the details related to that, but essentially there's a lot of people who think

05:59

Doug Wilson and James White have probably not portrayed things in the best light possible.

06:08

There's potential for gossip and slander to have been going around because of the things that they have said and because of the things that they've promoted.

06:20

And so because of their disagreement with Doug and James over these issues, a lot of people have tried to call them to repentance over these things, and as far as I've seen, there hasn't really been a response on their end.

06:36

And I don't know that we're necessarily interested in getting into the nitty -gritty of are all of those calls for repentance right or wrong.

06:46

That's not necessarily the purpose behind this episode, but it is to point out there have been a lot of people, because of their lack of response and their perceived lack of any sort of repentance where, in the minds of some, repentance is needed.

07:02

They've started essentially making memes that mock Doug Wilson and James White and Tobias as well.

07:13

And so we're kind of looking at those and saying, Tim and I are looking at those and saying, something seems strange about this.

07:22

There seems to be something strange about mocking people like this in this way because,

07:28

I mean, really and truthfully, they're coming from a lot of people who are, it seems like just based off the things that they've said themselves, they have benefited greatly from Doug and from James specifically because they've had decades of faithful work done.

07:49

They have put out plenty of things that have been helpful for a lot of the Reformed community.

07:54

And they've put themselves out there in a lot of different ways.

08:00

They've been mocked. They've been ridiculed by the outside world. And so I think it's fair to say that these guys have a long track record of faithfulness.

08:12

And I think there's a lot of people who would say, hey, they've really messed up this time.

08:20

And because they've messed up this time and they haven't addressed it, we're now going to start mocking them.

08:27

And so that's kind of the context behind this. And we're basically just coming along and asking the question, hey, let's just assume they are wrong.

08:38

Let's just assume flat out they are wrong in their response. And they haven't addressed it.

08:44

They are wrong. They do need to repent. Is putting memes out about them the correct response, considering their faithfulness over the years?

08:55

So that's a little bit of the context behind the situation. Do you have anything to add to that, Tim? Yeah, I mean,

09:01

I think maybe their faithfulness over the years is of some relevance to the discussion.

09:09

But in my mind, the primary concern I would have is the fact that they are older men in the faith in general.

09:18

So I think one of the things the passage says is, do not sharply rebuke an older man. So I would be concerned with their age.

09:24

I mean, these are guys that are, yeah, they're like my father's age. So I think there is a different standard of communication along those general lines or generation lines.

09:35

I mean, I wouldn't imagine that the same kind of sentiment would apply to someone who's maybe a few years older than you.

09:41

I don't think the text is really meant to be read in that wouldn't -ly of a literal way, but I mean, certainly someone of your father's generation who,

09:52

I mean, I don't think you're talking about a false teacher either. So some distinction might be made between someone who really is an ordained elder of a

10:08

Christian church, you know, and just some false prophet out there who is just doing the work of the devil.

10:14

Now, I mean, I'm not making any clear statement about what you do in this scenario at this point.

10:21

I'm just suggesting that, yeah, I mean, they are obviously pastors in good standing who are men who are, you know, your father's age, father's generation.

10:28

I mean, maybe for you it's even more than that. I don't know. Yeah, for me, they're probably more grandfather age.

10:39

So, yeah, that's something to reflect on for sure, right? Right, right.

10:45

Related to that kind of topic. But, yeah, but I think some of the events surrounding this are,

10:54

I mean, they're interesting. I really don't understand their impulses related to this current topic, and I shared that some in the last video.

11:05

Right, right. I think I understand the frustration of a person who is just looking at them and saying, like, hey,

11:14

Doug, I think you wrote a book, Southern Slavery As It Was, where you question some of the narrative of, you know, history at the time related to the abolitionist propaganda and, you know, how bad really was it in the

11:32

South. So you question those historical details related to slavery, and I think some people were questioning those details related to the

11:42

Holocaust, like how bad was it, and then you are refusing to tolerate that question, and it seems like people refused to tolerate your question before and just screamed and didn't deal with any of the historical stuff.

11:55

So, one, I don't understand why, considering your track record, you're allowed to question certain historical narratives and have everyone,

12:09

I mean, everyone had the same reaction to him. You know, in the slavery controversies, everyone had the same reaction.

12:16

They still have that reaction to him. Yeah, I mean, it's blasphemy. It's blasphemy to question, like, how severe slavery actually was.

12:26

So, I mean, I remember reading him during that time and thinking, man, people are losing their mind over him questioning how bad this was when he's clearly saying that there are some bad things about it, right?

12:39

But then, yeah, my, how the turntables have turned. Office reference, yeah.

12:47

I mean, something is happening here to where, you know, you have a different historical narrative that other people are poking at, and then we're, you know, everyone's having the same kind of response.

12:57

So, I understand the frustration at that to where it really sounds like White and Wilson, on the one hand, they're saying this should be an object of a person's faith, and then on the other hand, they're treating it like it actually is, and then their statement is basically treating it as a statement of faith issue.

13:14

So, yeah, I get that. I mean, I get the frustration. I mean,

13:22

I feel frustrated about it just because I would like to have a good, I would like to see a good conversation about this topic, and I'd love to have some more specifics given on how you interact with some real situations along these lines beyond just the platitudes.

13:39

So, like, how does the idea of honoring father and mother apply to issues related to ethnicity and race?

13:45

And there's a lot of platitudes that people throw out that I find that are pretty unhelpful. So, yeah,

13:52

I'd like some clarity on those issues, too. And I'm not even speaking, I'm not really even speaking to these issues.

13:59

Like, we don't really even deal with this topic. I don't think we've ever dealt with this topic. It's just I've watched the discussion online, and I wish that the older generation would maybe interact with it a little more.

14:13

It just feels like watching, it seems like watching them respond to this scenario is the same as how other people responded to them in the past.

14:23

So, it's kind of ironic to me. But all that said, I mean, yeah, I guess

14:31

I get on a human level how, if you're one of these individuals who is getting thrown under the bus and treated the way that Doug was treated in the slavery controversy,

14:44

I get how you might want to punch back pretty hard. And particularly because the kind of accusations that are leveled against these pastors who are involved in this one are pretty serious.

14:56

I mean, they're not, you know, small kind of, but we have a different sort of agreement kind of thing.

15:02

I mean, there's, I mean, the rhetoric's pretty high on this one. So, I guess I understand how you can say, all right, it's time for the meme game or whatever.

15:14

Now, I don't have anything against the meme game. I just, I understand that there are...

15:20

There's a time and a place, right? Right, right, right. I mean, so like as an example,

15:26

I mean, with your brothers, you understand that if your brother does something stupid, you're going to dog him about it.

15:34

Like that's the way it works, you know? Right. So, growing up, we always knew that if our brothers, like, you know, if they did something dumb, we were going to mess with them about it as brothers in order to try to make them better men, you know, and young men and all that.

15:50

But, I mean, like if dad did something stupid, like you... Zip it.

16:00

You pretend it didn't happen. It's a slow to speak situation, right? Kind of pretend it didn't happen, you know?

16:07

Maybe you smile a little bit, but that's about it, and then you try to keep that to yourself even. So, yeah,

16:12

I mean, it's... Even if he opened himself up for the perfect, you know, for the perfect joke, he understood that, yeah, you don't make jokes about that.

16:25

That's not the way this works, you know? So, I mean, I do think there is something to...

16:32

There's something to the idea of respect, for sure. It means that there are different rules to these kind of relationships to where you do enter, you know, into those kind of scenarios with a lot more caution, so, yeah.

16:48

Right. Yeah, and on my end, too, I do think there is a bit of a...

16:54

I mean, I understand... I understand at least the...

17:00

I guess the thought process behind the pushback to them.

17:06

You know, I'm one of those guys that feels like he's benefited greatly from James White and Doug Wilson, but, you know, looking at this situation, it does kind of feel like I'm watching the same exact response that you saw from a lot of the

17:26

Big Eva guys back in 2020 around a lot of these issues related to CRT and COVID and whatnot, not necessarily saying that...

17:36

You know, obviously not saying that Doug and James... I'm not really speaking to those issues in 2020, but it's just to say the response that the

17:45

Big Eva guys gave throughout 2020 feels eerily similar in a lot of ways to this response we're getting from James and Doug in 2024 related to the

17:59

Joel Webben situation and the Holocaust and, you know, what historical views are allowed and what are not.

18:08

And so I understand that there's a frustration there, but then, you know, you can scroll on Twitter and you'll find all these memes that people are making, making fun of them, obviously, because of their response.

18:22

I just find myself wondering, is that the response that the

18:29

Bible should lead us to in this kind of situation, where we're making memes that are meant to...

18:40

Really, in my mind, there's a place for mockery, for sure, in certain situations.

18:49

But when you're looking at faithful guys who, like you said, are much older than you a lot of times, because with a lot of these

18:56

Reformed guys, it seems like they're younger, is this the time for mockery, knowing that they've got decades under their belt in terms of faithful service?

19:09

And probably a lot of these guys have never really done nearly as much or put themselves out there nearly as much or contributed nearly as much in terms of writing and teaching week after week and counseling and just all the things that go into being a pastor in general.

19:29

Is this the response that we should be led to? So I guess I'll ask you that question, and it feels like you've made it clear in some ways, but just to kind of get an even more straightforward answer here, given the fact that it seems like we're both in agreement, like, yeah, they've probably fumbled this one somehow in this situation, should the response at this point, given it's been weeks, there's been no retractions, or, well, let me rephrase that, there's been no apologies, there's been no statements of repentance, nothing like that, do you eventually move into the meme them into oblivion stage of discipline,

20:16

I guess? I mean, I don't particularly know how old

20:22

Tobias is or how he maps onto this discussion. Right. He definitely looks younger than both of them, but I don't know how old he is.

20:31

Yeah, I'm not quite sure what... I don't know enough about him to really even comment on how he fits into that.

20:38

But I think he did offer some kind of apology, non -apology thing, to where, just as a side note,

20:47

I really do think that everyone should stop apologizing and start asking forgiveness. And if you're going to ask forgiveness, then make it clear that you're saying,

20:57

I sinned against heaven and in your sight, will you forgive me for X, without making any kind of excuses for it?

21:06

So he offered something like that that didn't seem to meet the biblical criteria that also kind of included a...

21:15

I mean, it sounded more like, I'm sorry if you misunderstood, but it was a language barrier kind of thing than...

21:21

Yeah, that was the impression I got. But yeah, it was just unclear what he was actually communicating there, whether or not he was accepting any fault or just communicating sorrow over misunderstanding kind of thing.

21:35

But yeah, I don't know how he maps on to the age kind of thing. I don't really know that it's like a, is this the time kind of issue?

21:42

It's just, is this the target? You know? Yeah. So I think a lot of people will... I think a lot of people who are doing the meme them into oblivion approach will hear this as a repudiation of memes, and that would be a mistake.

21:56

Why not? Right. I think that memes are... Yeah, we're all for mocking. Yeah, I mean, we do that, we do that.

22:03

We've been known to put out a few memes, so yeah, this is not a repudiation of memes for sure.

22:10

Yeah, I mean, like the no more brother wars kind of thought obtains here to where I...

22:18

If it were like just a brother war kind of situation, that's it. But if it's like some brothers versus their father kind of war, then that's different, you know?

22:29

So I think it's just different rules. So I would want to be knowing what... I would be putting a lot of thought into what it would mean to appeal to them as a father in this scenario.

22:41

And I think that's the relevant thought at the moment. Yeah, I mean, I... What's concerning about this to me is the fact that I see

22:50

James White and Doug... This is not even my controversy. It's not even my controversy. This is not something we've been putting ourself out there, making comments on.

22:59

We're not actively pushing these things. I'm just evaluating it as a person who is watching what's being said and it doesn't make sense to me.

23:11

So it just doesn't... Like it simply doesn't make sense. But I would say that it's troubling. It's troubling to me to think that I appear to be watching

23:21

James White and Doug Wilson respond to Joel Levin in the same way that Big Eva responded to Doug Wilson over Black and Tan and Southern slavery as it was.

23:36

So I learned during that time that Doug was saying some very careful things that people were interpreting very emotionally, right?

23:47

They weren't listening to the words he was saying, right? So basically, he was making some statements about the harmony between the races that existed at the time and basically saying that some of the abolitionist propaganda was overstated.

24:06

And I understood what he was saying there. I mean, I understood that that was an argument that he was making and he wasn't saying that no slaves were beat in that project, right?

24:20

That's not what he was saying. So now, I think since then, he said that he would probably word it a little bit different in light of some of the criticism.

24:29

I mean, I saw how the evangelical world responded to that for years and years and years, throwing down on him for that, refusing to hear what he was saying.

24:38

I thought that was weird. So for me, it's weird to watch them seem to do the same thing and be unable to make distinctions that seem pretty simple to me that I find somewhat troubling.

24:53

So basically, just responding. So people responded to him as if it was like a statement of faith kind of thing to where he was a slavery denier or something, like a slavery apologist, you know.

25:06

Now, he's doing the same thing related to the Holocaust kind of issue and I just think, oh, I haven't been trained by you guys to go there with that in my mind.

25:15

But then, I say that it is genuinely troubling to me that they don't see it as comparable.

25:26

And that makes me wonder, like, well, what am I missing here? And I don't think that's a bad impulse.

25:33

I don't think that's a bad impulse on my part to think, huh, maybe they see something that I don't see.

25:40

Right? Right, right. And I'd love to hear, I mean, I'd love to hear them out. I haven't really heard anything yet.

25:46

I mean, I've tried to listen to their responses and the frustrating thing is it just seems like they're not really addressing the most relevant facts here.

25:58

Like, it just seems like, so, like, as an outside observer, I would love to ask them some questions and try to pick their brain about why they're responding this way.

26:07

I think I can ask them pretty good questions to try to get to the bottom of what's actually happening because I have no, you know, our podcast is not that big or whatever.

26:16

We don't have any reputation with it, any relational capital with them to use in this way.

26:22

Like, I don't think that's ever gonna happen, but it does trouble me. Like, it troubles me to think, man, like, they're responding to this so forcefully.

26:31

Like, I wonder what's, but it seems like it's all a big misunderstanding. You know, it seems like it could be sorted out.

26:38

So, that's troubling to me, but I guess my fundamental posture is one of not, well, let's lay into them because I obviously see the situation better than them.

26:50

Yeah. I mean, I think I do, but maybe I don't. Right. But, I mean,

26:56

I think that's like a biblical, I think that's a biblical response that people should have is just to say that, you know, if guys who are old and reliable and have been there in the trenches and done that and for years and years and years, if they're, like, completely off foot by this, maybe there's something to it.

27:18

You know? Yeah. At least being willing to say, hey, look, they're older, they're wiser, they've been around the block a few more times than us.

27:29

Maybe there's something we're just totally oblivious to that they can see and we just haven't heard what that is yet from them by being open to that.

27:40

Yeah. I mean, I was listening to Doug and them's, I was listening to the Cross Baltic episode about that recently.

27:48

Yeah, I mean, there was, one of the things

27:56

Chocolate Knock said was, it's like, why are we talking about this? This seems like a private matter of discipline between the

28:02

Church and I've been having the same question the whole time and to the extent to which

28:08

I've been invited to participate, that's essentially what I've been trying to say to people is just, like,

28:13

I'm too far distant from this. I don't know that I'm going to be helpful unless, you know, all sides want to come sit down to me and let me be an arbitrator or mediator.

28:23

I'm happy to play that role, but I don't know, if that's not going to happen, then I don't know how much help

28:28

I can be because it's not my, you know, not my monkeys, not my circus, right? So, but Chocolate Knock was asking

28:35

Doug about that and, I mean, you could tell that, I mean, Doug had some, I didn't think his response was wonderful.

28:41

He was basically just saying, hey, this is a really big deal. I think he was kind of appealing to a lot of the comment sections that happened along these kind of discussions on the internet.

28:50

Like, there's a lot of movement that's happening in these worlds. And, you know,

28:55

I get it. I get that this can go really bad. Like, my takeaway from it was, yeah,

29:03

I don't think a race war would be good. And so, you know.

29:10

Yeah, yeah. And I don't know that, I don't know that the younger, I don't know that the younger generation who are engaging in the meme to, memeing to oblivion are necessarily plotting out how this could end up.

29:25

If that makes sense. Like, in the way that maybe Doug White, Doug Wilson and, Doug White.

29:33

Yeah, I mean, they may be plotting out, like, hey, we've watched, we've read this history before. These were the, like the same kind of sentiments that arose before.

29:43

And then we see, we're plotting the next step. And it may be that their reactions in the moment are not justified.

29:51

But it may be that there's something that's got them spooked. That, that maybe the younger generation isn't paying as much attention to.

30:00

So, what, anyways, what I'm trying to say is, like, I, sometimes, one of the things I've learned in these kind of situations is, instead of just looking at the arguments, try to figure out what's behind it.

30:12

If that makes sense. Because there might be more to it than that. And I mean, I, as a pastor, I mean, there's plenty of times in situations where people come to me with concerns that they have, and about something

30:23

I said, but, you know, that maybe they didn't understand, or don't know why I would word it the way

30:29

I word it, or whatever else. But, yeah, I would love for them to come ask questions, and not just come with, you know, both guns blazing, ready to go, not giving me the benefit of the doubt at all.

30:42

Not maybe thinking that maybe there's something I'm thinking about this situation that needs to be said that they haven't maybe considered before.

30:53

You know, so, I think my impulse in these kind of situations with older men is to know that wisdom generally resides with the aged, and they've been there, done that.

31:05

Maybe they're seeing some things that I don't see, even in this situation, and I'm prosecuting maybe some valid points that I'm prosecuting too, but maybe there is more to it than that, you know, too.

31:21

So, yeah, I mean, I think that should put everyone in a pretty tentative posture in this way to where they should be open to,

31:29

I mean, everyone in my generation should be open to consider the fact that, yeah, maybe they see something you don't see.

31:40

Right, right. Yeah. Maybe they're, just because maybe you think,

31:46

I mean, I think their response to this situation, even if there's other things that they're reacting to,

31:53

I don't think this is the right response, but I'd love to kind of hear out on it, and I don't think

31:59

I'm, this is a moment for just throw them under the bus, mockery, mock them into oblivion, you know, pull out the young Captain of Gondor pictures.

32:11

Ripping a heater. I mean, I don't know that it's that kind of a thing, them in the comments, right?

32:18

Don't do that. Don't do that. We're saying don't do that. Now, someone, someone did that to Toby today that I thought was kind of funny, so that's different, you know, they, they did, they, they, they did that meme to,

32:35

I mean, Toby's, he's not in the same category, I'm sorry Toby. Okay. You know,

32:41

Toby Sumter, like he's not in the same kind of category. They did a meme of uh, Doug Wilson, you know, ripping the heater or whatever, uh, with a quote, a quote, a quote that he made, um, a quote that he made that he thought that they, like in the past that they thought was, uh, denying something that Toby was saying in the present.

33:03

And so, I mean, I think that's fair game. That's fair game. That's kind of humorous. Um, it may get to the point better, you know, yeah,

33:11

I would go after guys like Toby more than I would go after it. But, uh, that's just me, you know,

33:18

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying there's no response to it, but I think the response should be much more measured, cautious, well, open to considering.

33:26

Well, and, and just as a side note, yeah, I mean, we're, you know, we're a relatively small podcast, but if any of you guys know

33:32

James White and Doug Wilson and can get ahold of them, we would love to have them on the show and, you know, ask them some of these questions and try to get, try to work through the answers to some of them.

33:43

And, you know, we're open to being wrong on our perspective of things that just like, hope, you know, hopefully they're open to being wrong as well about some, you know, the way all this has gone down potentially.

33:55

Um, so, so if any of you guys know them, reach out to them for us and let them know we're ready.

34:00

We're, you know, we're ready to have them on and, and talk through some of this stuff, but Tim, Tim, it sounds like you're saying.

34:06

Let me add a qualification real quick. Yeah. We're not saying that we feel entitled to those conversations.

34:12

So. Right, right. Yeah. Um, so Tim, it sounds like you're saying, even if there is a situation where, you know, someone who is much older than you has demonstrated faithfulness.

34:30

Um, but, but particularly, you know, as a fellow believer in the faith and is older than you, even if you think they might deserve it, you should not meme them into oblivion.

34:42

It sounds like that's what you're saying, right? Sure. Okay. So, so.

34:49

I mean, just take my dad. Okay. My dad, I'm sure there's plenty of times where in my relationship with my dad,

34:54

I've thought to myself, man, I don't understand why you're doing this thing that you're doing or responding to what

35:01

I'm, you know, a more comparable situation would be that, I mean, there'd probably be plenty of times where I've thought about my dad.

35:07

I don't know why you're responding to this thing that I'm doing in the way that you're responding to it. Okay.

35:13

So I, I understand like in those moments, yeah, there's a defensive, there's a, there's a temptation to be defensive, to have your primary concern to be your own personal reputation or whatever else, to just defend your actions and, you know, show him why your actions are justified the way he's thinking about it is not right or whatever else.

35:36

But I mean, I, I do think in those moments, really, I, in, in my more sanctified, you know, moments related to those kind of things, there is, there is an acknowledgement that, yeah,

35:51

I mean, maybe I'm right on the details of the specific argument that I'm trying to advance.

36:01

Maybe, you know, but then maybe there's something that there are times when you, when you're right and you're not right at the same time, if that makes sense.

36:15

You know, so, I mean, there's been plenty of situations in my life where I was right. Like my theological case was right, but the person who is reacting to what

36:28

I'm doing may not even know how to appropriately critique me because I, maybe

36:36

I can run circles around them and, you know, in terms of argument, argumentation or whatever else, right. They don't know how to respond to me, but there's something they see that's off -putting that they don't know how to communicate well, right.

36:49

And so then, you know, I've been in plenty of situations like this where there's something that I'm doing that they're trying to critique and they don't necessarily even have the right words to critique it, but there's something they see.

37:04

And, you know, if they point to any, if they get, if they try to put forward any kind of, like, here's what it is,

37:12

I'm just going, I could just dismiss it, right. I could just dismiss it, explain to them the biblical case more carefully.

37:20

You're wrong, you know, I'm right kind of thing. But, I mean, it's, the issue is they still see it.

37:28

They still see something. They still don't have the words for it. And just because I may think I've won the argument, that doesn't mean

37:35

I've won. That doesn't mean that, like, I'm in the right. You know, so what

37:40

I've found in these kinds of situations is often it's my job to, like, if they're spooked, figure out why they're spooked.

37:50

And it may be that they don't know how to communicate it even, right. It may not be, it may be, but then that's an impulse that only comes from a kind of person who really is taking this honoring father and mother seriously.

38:05

And I think part of the reason why the Bible says that is because wisdom is with the aged, and they've been there, done that, see things that you may not see.

38:14

And it should be kind of troubling if they're spooked, right?

38:22

So, I think you should consider, do they know something I don't know? And maybe they don't even know how to communicate it right, but then your posture could change from trying to defend yourself to trying to get to the what they see.

38:35

When you say there, maybe there's something that they see that I don't know, do you mean as the older person to the younger person or as the younger person to the older person?

38:47

No, I'm saying the, I don't know. Basically, are you saying like, hey, as the older person in the situation?

39:00

No, no. As the younger person to the older person. Yeah. As the younger person to the older person, you're looking at them as saying, hey, they're trying to critique something and their critique doesn't make sense.

39:10

But maybe they're seeing something that I don't see that they don't even know how to communicate well, or they're not communicating well.

39:16

But the fact that they're not communicating it well, doesn't mean that there's not something legit there that I should try to pay attention to and discover.

39:23

And so, I mean, that's kind of the way I'm thinking about this scenario right now with this one. It's just to say that I don't understand why they're responding to this the way that they're responding to it.

39:37

It doesn't make any sense to me. But then I'm wondering, well, what are they seeing that I'm not seeing?

39:43

And it may be that they are seeing some things that either I don't see, or I do see it, but I just don't think are as big a deal as what they see it.

39:53

You know, so yeah, I mean, I think my posture is just to say, I don't understand what I'm looking at, but I really would like to see if there's a way to get to the bottom of it.

40:04

Because I would want to know what's in their brain, if that makes sense. Because I'm not involved in these kinds of scenarios and it doesn't really matter as much to me.

40:14

But then I see these kinds of scenarios as having larger application to a lot of different areas.

40:23

So I'd love to ask my list of questions, so to speak. But yeah, but I just think you should have a bit of an uncertain posture.

40:32

Now, I mean, at the end of the day, if you're the younger person and the older person doesn't know how to communicate well the nature of their concern, you can't just halt indefinitely forever because there's a disagreement.

40:50

But you know, you should have a very nervous kind of posture. And I mean, I think a lot of the reformers in the past, they had that kind of posture to where they were profoundly unsettled at the thought of, you know,

41:04

I mean, Luther was profoundly unsettled at the thought that he didn't have a lot of backup on this one, right?

41:10

That wasn't something to enter into, you know, with boldness and all the confidence of a person who's come up with a new idea, you know, kind of thing.

41:22

Now, I'm not saying Luther came up with new ideas, but you get what I mean. That should be unsettling.

41:29

I mean, at the end of the day, if it's like, you know, if it's Athanasius versus the world, it's Athanasius versus the world, I can't deny my conscience that's neither right nor safe, right?

41:38

Kind of thing. So, I've mixed my historical figures together in that one. But yeah, no, it's, yeah, it should be neutral.

41:49

As my elder, meaning you were older than me, I wasn't going to correct you in any of those things.

41:56

Yes. Yeah. Which brings up my next question that I was going to ask.

42:05

You know, if we're saying, hey, don't meme them into oblivion, like, let's just assume, you know,

42:13

I guess, remove it from the Doug and James situation, and let's just think of a, you know, completely hypothetical situation.

42:21

And let's just assume the elder, you know, the person, you know, this elder in the faith, this father in the faith is older than you, and they're clearly wrong on an issue.

42:32

If we're saying, hey, don't meme them into oblivion, does that mean we're also saying do not rebuke them in any way?

42:41

Well, yeah, depending on whether or not, I guess it kind of depends on what the word rebuke means there.

42:49

Okay. So, should we, okay, then I guess let's just split it up into at least two different questions.

42:58

Should you correct them at all? And then should you call them to repentance at all?

43:05

Well, I mean, I think there's a procedure for these things. But yeah, I mean, I think it says do not rebuke an older man in the

43:14

NASV, and then, yeah, in the NASV it's do not sharply rebuke an older man.

43:21

But then it, the latter half of it is, but appeal to them as, or encourage him as you would a father.

43:28

So, yeah, I think there's some encouragement that could happen there that probably should be filled with a lot of the stuff that I just said.

43:40

Okay. So, like, meaning, like, I don't think that you just, I mean, if your father's,

43:47

I wonder if some of the younger generation would have approached this a little bit differently. Maybe they would get more of a opportunity to -

43:54

More of an audience. Yeah, to hash it out. But then, yeah, maybe the impulse at that point wouldn't have been to write a statement saying that we deny that it's possible to recover a moment that's centered around honoring father and mother when you dishonor them.

44:09

But yeah, so I don't know. Yeah. Like, I, maybe you get more of an audience if you would have approached this one a bit of a different way.

44:16

But in my mind, yeah, in my mind, at the very, like,

44:22

I think there's an appeal that it should, that should be happening. I think with a lot of the younger people, there seems to be more of a concern for their reputation in that moment than a concern to follow the appropriate procedure here to where your reputation, your ministry is on the line.

44:45

So, you respond in a defensive way. Now, I would say that one of the things that annoyed me about Doug Wilson early on was how defensive he was.

44:55

Like when he was - In this situation? No, no, when he was younger. Okay, okay. Like when, yeah, when he was going through all of his federal vision kind of stuff, when he was going through all the slavery controversies, you know, all that kind of stuff.

45:10

I mean, I read his stuff and I thought, man, you really come across very, very, very defensive, you know?

45:17

And so, I mean, it's kind of funny because I see that the guys now, they come across in the same way as he came across in the early years.

45:25

So, there's that. But yeah, that's just what comes across, but that may be me improperly reading motives.

45:32

I don't know. But of all the, you know, famous internet personalities, Doug during his early years came across way more defensive than a lot of the rest of them did.

45:44

Particularly a guy, like when you compare him to guys like MacArthur, there was a lot more defensiveness that I saw coming out that seemed obvious to me.

45:53

But yeah, I mean, I think if you're being unjustly thrown under the bus,

46:01

I would suggest that don't take the defensive route for sure if that's a temptation. And then

46:07

I would suggest, I mean, I've seen people do this before where they're not just...

46:15

I've seen people do this in a good way before to where, you know, John MacArthur throws them under the bus and, you know, they started out with, hey,

46:22

I've learned a lot from you and I don't want to dismiss anything that you're saying here.

46:29

I want to be able to take criticism. I think you're wrong. You know, I'd love to talk to you about it though, but here's why

46:36

I think you're wrong. But I really will think about what you're saying and pray about what you're saying and consider what you're saying.

46:44

And it may not be that you... it's not like, hey, you communicate, this is the first time

46:49

I've ever considered about those things or thought about those things. So I've thought about these things before and I have answers to those kinds of things.

46:56

But, you know, the fact that you're troubled is troubling to me as well. And so I appreciate you letting me know about your concerns.

47:06

But I mean, I think that would be coming across in a very different kind of way than...

47:13

Than just like a flat out, you're wrong kind of response, right? Meme into oblivion. Meming them into oblivion, right?

47:22

Yeah. I mean, just a little bit different, but I mean, yeah, I think that there's a way to appeal to someone as a father.

47:30

I would think that the way I just said to do it would be a lot more understood by most people as following that pattern,

47:39

I would think. So that's just me, you know, I could be wrong.

47:44

But yeah, I think that's something I would encourage people to do.

47:51

It is kind of distasteful to watch people treat guys like James Wyatt as if they're just like stupid idiots who hit someone with a bus or something.

48:04

It's like, I don't know how that fits. They're definitely smarter than me, that's for sure.

48:13

Yeah. I guess another question I had that I don't know it has a huge impact in terms of the conclusion of this conversation, but just kind of reading through some of these verses that relate to showing respect to your elders.

48:30

You have the 1

48:35

Timothy 5 verse 1, do not rebuke an older man, but encourage him as you would a father younger men as brothers.

48:45

So there's a Bible verse that seems to be just speaking about older men in general.

48:53

And then you have obvious commands like the 5th commandment, honor your father and mother that your days may be long in the land that the

49:00

Lord your God is giving you. That's Exodus chapter 20 verse 12. Let's see.

49:07

And then you have stuff like Ephesians 6 verse 1, children obey your parents, Hebrews 13, 17, obey your leaders and submit to them.

49:15

That's talking about overseers of the church. And so you seem to have a lot of verses in general that are covering areas like, hey, here's how you deal with your elders in the church, meaning the pastors, the overseers.

49:38

You have verses relating, a lot of verses relating to parents, how you interact with your parents.

49:45

And then you have this one verse, at least this one verse in verse Timothy 5 that seems to be talking about just older men in general.

49:54

But when we're having a... There is some translational issue there to where the

49:59

KJV says rebuke not an elder. So the word is presbutero, but yeah, it's either way.

50:07

Yeah. It could be older men in general or elder or elder in the technical sense, but keep on going.

50:13

So the question is basically when we're having this kind of conversation, and this is getting a bit technical, like I said, but when we're having this kind of conversation, what

50:24

Bible verses specifically apply? Are they the ones that talk about shepherds and overseers?

50:32

Are they the ones that talk about honor your father and your mother? So does the fifth commandment specifically apply in these kinds of situations where we're talking about, hey, is it okay to meme pastors that are online into oblivion?

50:50

They're not your pastor, you're not submitted to them in any way, but they are older than you. They have been faithful teachers, they're not false teachers.

51:01

Does the fifth commandment apply in this scenario, or are we just looking at a, like, hey, this is a 1

51:09

Timothy 5 .1 commandment that you're violating. Is it just the 1 Timothy 5 .1,

51:14

or is it all of these various commands that seem to be at the heart of them saying, honor those who are older than you, but are more specific in terms of the older people they are.

51:29

Does that make sense? Yeah. So honor father and mother is the foundation for all of this.

51:38

So what you're not really meant to do is try to... So the idea of honoring father and mother, that's like the big category that you apply to a lot of different situations.

51:52

It's like the umbrella command, basically. Yeah, it's the umbrella command that you apply to all that.

51:59

But I mean, there are general principles of authority that the Bible teaches in general.

52:04

So the idea of respect, that give honor to whom honor is to do, respect whom respect is to.

52:14

Every kind of authority relationship that you can imagine in the Bible has the same kind of rules that apply to it.

52:23

So whether you're talking about wife to husband, like a wife shouldn't be mocking her husband.

52:30

Children shouldn't be mocking their parents. Children shouldn't be mocking their parents.

52:35

Wife shouldn't be mocking her husband. Citizens shouldn't be mocking their king.

52:43

Employees should not be mocking their employer. So I mean, there are rules for authority relationships across the board that apply to every conceivable situation that you can find.

52:55

So any kind of authority relationship at all is going to have respect dynamics that are coming to the forefront.

53:04

So because a wife is under the authority of her husband, there's just different rules for how she communicates to her husband than how he communicates to her.

53:14

So I mean, he shouldn't disrespect her kind of thing, right? In colloquial usage or whatever, but she's not in authority over him.

53:26

So she has a unique concern to be respectful towards him. And that's tied to the relationship he has above her, if that makes sense.

53:39

So now, should he be rude to her? No, he shouldn't be harsh to her.

53:45

She should respect him. He shouldn't be harsh to her. Does that make sense? But yeah, the idea of respect is related to authority relationship in general.

53:55

And then honor father and mother is the big umbrella command that all of that should be filtered and through.

54:02

And then there are rules to talking with older people in general that are related to notions of respect, right?

54:12

So those notions of respect, are there across the board. They apply to every conceivable situation.

54:20

So because you know that wisdom is with the gray hair and you should honor those who have gray hair, right? That's just, that all in some sense is tied to honor your father and mother, you know, as the big concept that works itself out in a lot of different applications.

54:39

So there's many different applications to that one principle that basically there are authority relationships.

54:46

Authority relationships exist. There's different manner of communication that happens. So there's one manner of communication that's appropriate in one type of relationship.

54:55

In another type of relationship, it's not appropriate. So plot that out, you know, everywhere you can see like wife to husband, children to parents, servant to master, yeah, or slave to master, whatever, you know, like it, citizen to king, it's all there, you know.

55:13

Church member to elder, same kind of, these rules apply in every single one of these conceivable situations.

55:20

So. Tom Scott Okay. All right. Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the...

55:26

Dr. Justin Marchegiani Let me, yeah, let me hasten to add that just because someone is older than you, that doesn't mean that they're directly in authority over you or in the same kind of way.

55:34

But there is a respect, a deference that is given to those who are older. It is modeled after that kind of respect.

55:42

Dr. Justin Marchegiani It is something we should pay attention to. Tom Scott Yeah. Tom Scott Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that's a, yeah, that's a good place for us to wrap up the episode on.

55:49

So thank you, Tim, for answering all my questions related to that. And, you know, hopefully this can be the kind of episode that some, you know, some of the younger guys like me can hopefully listen to and maybe ask themselves,

56:02

Hey, am I, you know, am I responding in the best way possible in light of what

56:07

Scripture says? You know, despite what I, you know, whatever conclusions I may have come to in terms of guys like James White and Doug Wilson, in terms of their response, despite whatever conclusions

56:21

I may have come to there, you know, have I had the correct biblical response?

56:27

And I think that's a question worth asking, especially for the younger reformed guys who are very zealous.

56:37

And I mean that in a good way. They're zealous, but then sometimes they don't always know how to channel that in the most helpful way possible.

56:47

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