Matt Slick Live: February 6, 2025

The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live!

Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm .org.

When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome to the show. If you want, you can give me a call, as usual, 877 -207 -2276.

Welcome to this lovely Thursday of February 6th, 2025. Hope you're going to enjoy listening to the show.

Hope it all goes well. And we had a good call yesterday, actually. It was really interesting. Bob, he's a nice enough guy,

Catholic. We ended up talking afterwards, I think for, oh,

I don't know, an hour afterwards, just going back and forth with stuff. And people started coming into the room and really paying attention and listening, and I thought it was a good time, a good learning opportunity for a lot of people to see how things are and stuff like that.

But no big deal. All right, so there's that. Like I said, if you want to give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276.

All right, now why is that there like that? Why is that? I don't know what that is. I've got all these things going on in my computer.

I mean, it's good stuff, like I have a file open and there's a cell highlighted in my file that shouldn't be.

Why is that highlighted like that? I don't know. Hey, if you want to give me an email, you can do that as well. All you have to do is dial, is, excuse me, is just send an email to info at karm .org.

Info at karm .org, it's really easy. And we can get to it just by the subject line, radio comment, radio question, one of those.

That's generally what helps, and so we can get you. All right. Oh, I got to switch this right here.

I think that's right, it goes there. And so many things I'm doing. Should be working now. Everything should be good.

All right, let's get to Jermaine from California. Jermaine, welcome. You're on the air.

Oh, hey, Matt. Hey, how's it going, man? Oh, pretty good.

I'm actually glad I didn't get through yesterday. I enjoyed the conversation. Yes, it was a good conversation.

I hope that people learn stuff by, you know, debating with real Catholics. Yeah.

So what do you got, buddy? Well, yeah, today I want to discuss Luke chapter one.

I think it's verse 37. I just had a cousin and I have a nice discussion about things being impossible for God.

And I said, well, I don't believe that's accurate. And of course, we got challenged. And the things that I find that are impossible for God in the

Bible, God not being able to lie, to fail, you know, whatnot, is the verse saying that nothing's impossible for God as if he can't not do those things?

Maybe you can kind of break it down for me. Now, it's not a doctrinal statement that is exhaustive.

It's more like hyperbole. God can do anything. Well, of course, the people who would write this

Luke knows that God's not going to lie. He's not going to be unfair. It just goes without understanding, without worrying about it.

You know, we understand that. That's what's going on. Nothing, you know, God can take care of everything that you need. Nothing's impossible for him.

He can help you. He can do this and do that. Now, look at the context, okay? Mary said to the angel, how can this be since I'm a virgin?

The angel answered and said to her, the Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason, the

Holy Child shall be called the Son of God. And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age, and she who is called

Maren is now in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God. That's the context.

With people, God can do what he wants. He can make an old woman pregnant or he can make a young man a father.

He can do what he wants, do what he desires because he's perfectly capable. That is really what's about what's going on, okay?

All right. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Okay, yeah, that's what's going on.

Yeah, so we know that God can't lie, Titus 1 -2. And he, from everlasting to everlasting, he is

God, Psalm 90 verse 2. So he can't not be God and he can't lie, you know, things like that.

So this is not, that verse is not saying that he can like make a square circle. Some people just take it literally.

And so it's like hyperbole. It's exaggeration. It's just meant in the context to understand that he can do whatever he wants with you, okay?

That's just another way of saying that. And that's what's going on. Not that big a deal. All right?

All right. Talk to you tomorrow. All right, brother. God bless. Well, that was germane.

And, you know, it's just so you understand. It's like, I give this illustration to people that they'll say

God is all good. And if he's an all good God and all, they'll actually say all loving.

If he's all loving, why would he send anybody to hell? And I say, but that's not what the Bible says about God.

It doesn't say he's all loving. It never says he's all loving. It says he is loving and just and holy and merciful and patient and wrathful and righteous.

And so you take all of these things and you put them together. And then you have the whole picture of who

God is, what he can or cannot do, so to speak. So when we take the whole of scripture, God cannot lie, but nothing's impossible.

We understand the hyperbole, the exaggeration. Nothing's impossible. He can save someone. Like he saved someone like me, an occultist who was into some pretty bad stuff.

And then he yanked me out of the darkness of the occult and demonic influence and made me into a

Christian apologist. Look what he did. No one else could do it. That's what God does.

He does that with people. He can save them. That's why, for example, my wife and I pray regularly for our daughters who have walked away by their own choice.

They've walked away from the faith. They are doing some pretty bad stuff. One of them is doing really bad stuff and has done stuff that's really just horrible as far as morally going.

And we just pray. Nothing's impossible with God. We know that God is the one who can save people.

We know he's the one who works with people. We know he's the one and we trust in him. That's what we're talking about.

So he does that. All right. And nothing's impossible with him. All right.

Hey, if you want to give me a call, it is easy. All you need to do is dial 877 -207 -2276.

I want to hear from you. Give me a call and we can talk. We can blab. All right. All right. Now let's get to Gokhan from Charlotte, North Carolina.

Welcome. You're on the air. Hey, how you doing, Mr. Maslick? I'm hanging in there, man.

That's how I'm doing. How are you doing? I'm doing good, man. I just had a quick question about speaking in tongues.

Okay. Okay. I've got baptized, gave my life to Christ, but I haven't spoken tongues.

Is it true that you're not saved unless you speak in tongues? No, that's a lie from ignorant people who don't know how to Scripture and couldn't argue their way out of a wet paper bag.

If it was facing towards the outside of a NASA centrifugal force machine. Okay.

They still couldn't get out. All right. So no, the Bible says not all speak with tongues.

All right. And so out of 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 14, there are different gifts that God gives different people.

Now, I've never spoken in tongues. I never have. And I've been a Christian since 1980.

You know, I'm 68, and I've never spoken in tongues, except the one time I stubbed my toe really bad, and I said some weird stuff.

But other than that, that's it. You know, so no, the people who say that usually are one is

Pentecostal or some form of hyper Pentecostal people who don't know really what the scriptures are teaching in this area.

And when I say they couldn't argue the way out of a wet paper bag, I'm not kidding. They don't know they're doing, and they're dangerous.

Those people are dangerous. You have to speak in tongues in order to prove the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And, you know, you've got to have the baptism of the

Holy Ghost. And then you say, give me a break. You know, it just doesn't work like that. It's a load of bums.

Do you have any? Do you have any scriptures I could? Because it's actually the church that I go to, and I'm hoping

I'm not being led, you know, wrongfully. But do you have any scriptures I can maybe show my pastor and say, hey, this is what the

Bible says about speaking in tongues? Okay, does he say, I will,

I'll get some specifics here. But is your pastor saying you have to speak in tongues to be saved?

Yeah, well, they believe that they're Pentecostal. Now, let me ask you, are they United Pentecostal?

I'm not, I'm really not sure. I just joined, like, say about two months, three months ago, and I haven't,

I'm still doing my new members class. Okay, hold on. So do you have the name of the church in the city?

And I'll look up the website if they have one. Yeah, you have that? It's Charlotte, North Carolina.

It's New Vision Ministries. Charlotte, North Carolina, New Vision Ministries.

All right. NVM, Charlotte, let's see. So I hope

I get the right one. So about pastor. Oh, it says the connection's not, it's not a secure connection.

So I'm not going to go into it. So I really can't tell you. But I wish

I had my other thing. Oh, man, I gotta get that going. Anyway, well, we believe, yeah, it's all, it's,

I can't check because it's, there's no certificate of security on the web, so on their site.

So here's the things you need to go ask them. All right, you need to ask. So if you had a pencil and paper, write these things down.

You need to find out if it's a cult or not. Okay, I'll tell you why.

See, normally speaking, churches that teach that you have to speak in tongue to be saved are cults, non -Christian cults.

All right. Yes, that's right. You got to ask them these questions.

Okay, do you have to speak in tongues in order to be saved? If he says yes, leave the church.

Here's another question. Are women pastors and elders okay? If he permits women pastors, women elders, leave the church.

He doesn't understand the Bible and those areas. Or ask if he believes in the

Trinity, one God in three persons. And you want to ask, does he believe in the

Trinity or oneness, Trinity or oneness?

If he says oneness, and if he said the Trinity's not in the Bible, it's a cult. All right.

Okay, cult or not. That's right. Women pastors, Trinity or not. What was that other second one?

Okay, so women pastors and elders, you want to ask that. You want to, if they say yes to that, you can't trust them.

You got to leave the church. It's not good. If, ask what they believe in the Trinity or not.

In the Trinity. Okay, or are they oneness? Oneness.

Now, I'm not saying they are of any of these things. I can't check the website out because it's just, you know, can't do it.

So I don't know if that is the case. I'm just asking you to go check it. Because if they say yes to these things, like, do you have to be baptized to be saved?

I mean, oh, that's another question. You have to be baptized to be saved. And here's a question. Do they say to be baptized in the name of Jesus, not in the name of the

Father? Yeah, he did. He did baptize me in the name of Jesus because we discussed that before. I told him, I said,

I got baptized before in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost. And I don't feel, you know, because another pastor, pastor.

All right. You know Jennings, I watch him on TV, so. No, no, he's bad. Don't say that to him.

So look, so here's the thing. The formula he used at baptism, did he say,

I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit? Or did he say, I baptize you in the name of Jesus? Which one?

In the name of Jesus. OK, it's a cult. It's oneness. Oneness cult.

Oneness denies the Trinity. And hold on, we've got a break. OK, so we'll get back. Talk some more about this.

All right. This is important. All right. I don't want you to get mixed up in something bad. So hold on. And I'd be willing to come out there and debate them in public, too, on these issues.

Oh, I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. I will. Oh, yeah. But hold on, buddy. We've got a break. So hold on. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages.

Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, and welcome back to the show. We're having a little bit of an audio issue on my end.

I've worked on it during the break a little bit. Hopefully that'll be better. Let's find out. OK, Gokhan, are you there?

Still? Yes, I'm still here. All right, man. So look, oneness

Pentecostal theology teaches that there is no Trinity. Now, when they deny the

Trinity, they're denying the true God. When they're denying the Trinity, they're denying... This is more advanced theology and stuff, but they're denying the necessary preconditions for intelligibility.

That's a whole other topic. A few people understand it. Anyway, so they deny the true God. And then they teach that you have to be baptized to be saved.

And you have to be baptized, quote, unquote, in the name of Jesus. And you have to be baptized, or excuse me, you have to speak in tongues in order to be saved.

And generally, they affirm women pastors and elders. It is a non -Christian cult.

It's a cult. It's not Christian. All right. I wish

I would have known that before I got baptized and joined the church. Yeah, I just wanted to be a part of the church and just wanted to, you know, serve the

Lord. Well, I'll tell you what. Charlie's going to put a link in my chat here about a place to go look up churches.

And I'm going to tell it to you. Now, on my website, have you been to my website? CARM .org,

C -A -R -M dot O -R -G. CARM, C -A -R -M dot

O -R -G. Yes, C -A -R -M dot O -R -G. I've been working the site for over 29 years.

And it's got millions and millions and millions and millions of visitors. And I've written an article there, what to look for in a church.

What to look for in a church. So I'm going to type in my website, CARM .org.

OK. And then in the search engine, what to look for in a church.

And I hit enter. And what comes up is, I'm going to make sure

I get the right thing. What things should we look for in a church? It's about the fourth one down.

What things should we look for in a church? You click on that and it'll give you an outline form.

The things to watch for. Avoid a church that affirms any of the following. Avoid them.

Affirms women pastors and elders. Supports homosexuality in any way. As in, it's

OK to be homosexual and be a Christian. It's not. Where unbelievers are paid to lead worship.

Where it requires baptism for salvation. Or teaches full preterism. If you don't understand those things, don't worry about it.

And let's see. Yeah, and I may have to update this thing a little bit.

What do you expect to find in a good church? The Doctrine of the Trinity. And you know, I think I am.

I think I'm going to work on that a little bit. Just because of our phone call. Speaking in tongues.

Baptism in the name of Jesus. Because I wasn't thinking of these things when I wrote this with something else.

But I think I might modify it a little bit to kind of update it a little. Because I wrote it back in 2010.

So the church you're going to sounds like a cult. All right? Non -Christian cult. All right? They'll use

Christian words. Christian this, Christian that. But it's not Christian. Now, tell them.

When you say, yeah, I talked to a guy named Slick on the radio. It's not real impressive.

OK? You know, some slick guy on the radio. OK? But it's my real name. All right? I'm willing to fly out there and do a debate in person in the church on proper means of baptism and the nature of the

Trinity. Now, we haven't even gotten into, plus speaking in tongues, baptism, we can do all kinds of stuff.

I haven't gotten into another really important issue here. And I don't expect you to understand all of this.

But one false teaching always leads to other false teachings.

When I talk to oneness people, I talk to oneness people, I tell them, I say, look, who was

Jesus speaking to? Because in oneness, God is one person, not three, not a trinity. He's just, they call him

Jesus. That's why they say they baptize in Jesus' name. They don't understand what it means in the Bible, the phrase.

But that's another topic. And so they'll say, Jesus was praying to himself in the garden.

And I'll say, wait a minute, he's praying to himself? That's impossible. It doesn't work like that.

Yeah, I've had non -believers tell me that. Right. Well, and so then when

I press them, then they say the human nature was praying to the divine nature.

And I won't explain all the details, but this invalidates the true incarnation and invalidates the true sacrifice of Christ.

I can connect the dots. If I was teaching a class on it, here's why. So this is a dangerous church that you're involved with.

Sorry to tell you, buddy, but you need to ask him questions. It's better to know you than to be the lost, right?

That's right. And get out. Now, that's right. And now I'm going to tell you the URL that you can go to to find a church.

That's a good church in your area. All right. So it's www, you know, that whole thing.

It's TMS, Tom Matthew Samuel, TMS .edu.

So TMS .edu forward slash find a church.

It's find hyphen, a hyphen church. OK, so forward slash find a church.

Find a church with the hyphens between the letter. In other words, find hyphen, a hyphen church. And there's going to be some good churches out there.

Furthermore, you're out there in Charlotte. I bet you if you call the station up because they're out there in Salem, I think.

Is that right? I don't know if Keith's listening where you guys are at, but they could probably recommend some good churches in the area as well.

Oh, OK. Troop Network. Yeah. And, and I take this stuff seriously.

And if you were to find a couple, three churches, you know, you go, these churches good. You could call me up on the radio. I'll look them up on the web.

Here's the name of the address, the URL, the website. I'll go look and say, look at the scan through stuff.

Yeah, it seems to be OK. Or I got some problems here or whatever it is. I'll do that for you.

OK. OK, I appreciate it. And I can I can email you at the I can get in touch with you through CARM .org

if I have any other questions or anything. That's right. Info. The email is just info at CARM .org.

All right. Info. OK. Info. OK. I appreciate it. And get a lot of good people. You're welcome, brother.

Call me back. Let me know what happens. Just, you know, when you find out. But it's a cult. All right. Stay with the cult. OK. They won't like it.

All right. All right. Thank you so much. OK, brother. I bless my company.

You have a blessing. All right, man. Before we get the next caller, I just want to say that I personally in person challenged the number one defender of oneness theology in the

United States to a public debate. And he didn't accept. In person. I was three feet from him.

I said, look, my name is Madison. And I know oneness. I know Trinitarianism. I'd like to debate you. And he was out in my area and he declined.

I said, how about a written debate? He said he would think about it. And then he declined that as well.

I would love to have done that. I think he did some research on me and found out what I teach. I don't know.

Whatever. All right. Having said all of that, let's get on the next call, which is Andrew from Maryland.

Andrew, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt, how are you tonight? Oh, fine.

Just exposing cults. What my favorite thing to do? Absolutely. I tell you what,

Dr. Michael Burgos runs a reformed Baptist church up there in Connecticut and writes articles similar to yourself on that topic.

He does a great job, too. Oh, yeah. He used to work with us. He's a good guy. Hey, hold on, buddy. We got a break. Sorry about that. Just a little timing problem there.

And you're going to be right back, OK? Hey, folks, be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone. Welcome back to the show. We have all the lines filled.

If you want to give me an email or send me an email, it's info at CARM .org. Info at CARM .org

with a subject line, radio comment, radio question. We can get to them. Let's get to Andrew again. You still there, buddy?

Yes, sir, I'm here. All right, man. There you go. Hey, I'm sorry.

I sent you an email. I don't expect you to reply to it right now. I know you get a ton of emails, but it was about Ephesians one of the

Greek. I thought it was. Yes, sir. I'm a

Reformed Christian, just like you. There's a lot of attacks on Reformed theology.

He chose us and him before the foundations of the world. Basically, it was an article just trying to bring something to your attention about the data versus the accusative case, and I don't want to take up your time on the air about it, but I just thought

I'd let you know about it. Yeah, so the accusative is a direct object, the data is indirect. So in which verse?

Is it verse 11? He chose us in him. Ah, OK. And so just tell me what the point is.

I'm sure I'm curious, you know, let's see what he got. What do you what is it? Yeah. Do you want me to elucidate it real quick?

Sure. So basically, it's in the in him is a prepositional phrase, obviously, and it's in the data case, which is describing location.

And so what this means is that it's referring back to the choosing of the father.

Which is that the location of the father choosing has always been eternally been in Christ.

It's never been outside of Christ. It's always been in unity with him, that sort of thing.

And the reason why this would be important is because provisionists today try to argue that, well, he chose, certainly, but he chose those who would choose him, those who are in Christ already.

Now, obviously, we know Romans 5 teaches and everything. But the point is, yeah, it's a it's a slash prevenient grace slash semi

Pelagianism, kind of Armenian, weak Arminianism of that view. Yes, I couldn't agree with you more.

I just I always like to try to prove the point from the verse itself, you know, and there's other places to go to.

But and I'm sorry to take up your time, but basically, it was referring back to the book.

But if it was referring back to the direct object, us, it would have to be in the accusative case, which is clarifying who or what.

So who or what did the father choose? He chose us. It would be describing us and him, which would have to be the accusative, as opposed to the data, which is describing where the choice is being taken.

Right, right. That makes sense. I just thought that was a direct object, right in him.

And it deals with federal headship. I assume you know what that is. That's what that's what it's going about in him is it makes perfect sense.

It's a date of which is the indirect object related to the to Christ and federal headship. Yeah, I love that.

Yes, sir. I I called two nights ago and I was I was saying thank you for everything that you've done for Romans five for me.

So I really appreciate that again. Romans five. Oh, people don't know what a treasure

Romans five is a treasure. And oh, yes, I love teaching

Romans five, 15 through 19. Just tremendous stuff. Yeah, absolutely.

Super deep theology. And I know you have a ton more callers, but I just did want to make one more comment last night about when you're having a good discussion with the

Roman with the Roman Catholic man. And this is not meant to be disparaging in any way, but it broke my heart when he kept referring back to, you know, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life.

My blood is true fruit, because at the very beginning of the discourse in verse thirty five,

Jesus clarifies and and gives us the terms by which he's using. He literally says, sorry, just to pull up in my

Bible here, I apologize. I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not hunger and he who believes in me will never thirst.

And Jesus is saying that he's using the terms of eating is coming and drinking is believing.

And that said, prior to the entire illustration about bread and blood and body.

So Jesus is giving us the the cipher, if you will, of what I'm about to say. I'm telling you the key.

Here's the key. Use it. And that's why when he says in verse forty four, whoever believes has eternal life.

Yeah, because if you come to Jesus, if you believe in him, if you eat his blood and drink his and drink his blood and his flesh, it's all the same thing.

It's believing. That's right. Amen, brother. Good stuff. Also, we talked about he and I spoke for an hour after the show and we went through.

I watched. Yes, sir. Oh, you did. Well, he didn't know about this one part. Apparently this is the blood of the covenant.

We talked about the nature of the covenant and the covenant sign, which is the blood that is offered.

It's not the covenant sign that save is the covenant that does. This is the blood of my covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

But I say to you, I will not drink from the fruit of this vine from until until now, later.

So I said to him, and you heard it. The Jesus still referred to it as wine, the fruit of the vine.

That's what he called it. And he didn't know this. Kevin didn't know what to do with that one. But it's right there.

Yeah, good stuff. That was a good it was good after show. I thought then I had to go and get some medicine for my wife, which was absolutely.

And I and part of me calling tonight was to ask you about that Ephesians one. Thank you for for verifying my own study.

And then also in case he was listening tonight, you know, just that he has to deal with what

Jesus says at the beginning of the discourse about the centrality of the sovereignty of God and salvation.

You know, that's what John six is about, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Now about the Greek, I've had it took a lot of Greek and I'm still very rusty at it.

But it's really wise when looking at the date of particularly related to the accusative in a verse like this to see what the

Greek experts say, because there's something called the date of of means. And I'm not sure if this relates to that, but it might be related to that issue.

And it might shed some light on some stuff. But yeah, anyway, there's a lot there. Well, if you well, if you if it if it perks your fancy, it perked mine.

And if you feel free to look into that and make that part of, I don't know, an article or something, that sounds pretty cool.

Yeah, because the date of means indicates the instrument or the method by which something occurs. So he chose now that's the verb, but the date of of means might appeal might occur or be referenced.

But I don't know. I'm not good enough in Greek to be able to say. So that's what I'm saying is it's interesting stuff.

But yeah. All right, buddy. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, have a good night, sir. All right.

All right. Now let's just jump over to Mr. Anonymous from California. Welcome.

You're on the air. How are you, Matt? I'm hanging in there.

You don't want to say my name, but the city you know. Oh, you're really hard to understand. Let's try it again.

It just sounds I don't want to. I didn't want to say my name today. But the city you do know,

Bellflower. Today, a friend of mine called my mother and me to come and see her mom because she is dying.

She is excuse me. She is mute, but she could see with her eyes and stuff.

And breathing is a little bit hard. Of course. But the thing is,

I don't know if she's going to heaven or hell to me.

To me, I could only say hell because the last time before she was fine and she was up and down.

And I asked her, can I give you a Bible? So you can read and I can come a couple of days later and read it with you.

And she said, no, she doesn't do it. She just can't read.

She's not interested in reading the Bible. She's a Catholic.

And all I could do for her when

I went to her house and saw her today is what I was going to just pray.

So, but the thing is that I truly don't know if she has accepted the

Lord from what I see. I would just preach the gospel to her.

She doesn't have to read the Bible. She has to hear that gospel. Just give her that gospel. You know, you know, she said she's mute, but just tell her repeatedly you need to trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins.

Trust in Jesus and in him alone, not anything else, but trust in Christ. Just give her that gospel and just pray that God opens her heart and her mind.

It's very hard. It's very hard for me to say that. One, because her daughter is a normal daughter.

Her second daughter is a lesbian. And her son, her third son is bisexual.

And that makes it hard for me because she also follows the

Catholic church. Yeah, we got a break coming up, buddy. So we got to go. But that's what you got to do.

Get that gospel to her, okay, brother? That's what you got to do. Hey, folks, we got to go because there's the break. May the

Lord bless him and pray for him and his mom. And we ask in that Jesus name, be right back after these messages.

Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome back to the show. We're in the last segment. Our lines are packed.

Let's get to Nadja from North Carolina. Welcome. You're on the air. Hi. Hi.

Okay. My question is, how do you explain someone like Deborah as a judge and leader over all the people, male and female, with your interpretation of no woman preachers from 1

Timothy 2, 11 through 12? A judge is not a pastor. And the judges in ancient

Israel were not a church. And so it wasn't a church situation. What Paul is doing in the pastoral epistles is giving specific information on how they're behaving at church.

And he specifically says that in 1 Timothy 3, 15. Deborah in the Old Testament was raised up by God as a judge to rule over them because the men were just wicked and stupid.

And so she came in and did that, which is a shame to them. But that's not the same thing as a minister in the church who are full of believers.

Because the wicked judges in the Old Testament, they weren't true believers in a lot of areas.

So Deborah was raised up in order to set things straight. So that does not work with the issue of women pastors and elders in the church.

Because the Bible specifically says a pastor is an elder. That's 1 Timothy 5, 17. And the elder is to be a man of one woman, a husband of one wife.

So a woman can't fit that bill. OK. OK, now that's under the assumption based on what you said that this is a congregation of complete believers, right?

I just say complete believers. I said believers. So yeah, judges were under the covenant of God.

And in judges, the people were rebelling against God. It was all kinds of bad stuff going on.

She was raised up and then she had to set things straight. There's no problem with that. Because she could be a judge.

We can have judges in the world today. Women are not to be pastors and elders. The Bible says so.

OK. OK. And so with the duties of a pastor, those duties aren't similar to the duties of a judge?

Of course, they're similar. But similarity doesn't mean it's then OK. See, look,

Old Testament judges, New Testament church. Old Testament wickedness of the people of Israel and judges.

New Testament church of believers. Old Testament men who are going against God.

New Testament men who are serving God. Old Testament situation where she was raised up to correct a lot of the guys.

And she did. But that has nothing to do with an elder. See, now the

Bible says in First Timothy 315, Paul says,

I'm giving you instruction on how you're to behave in the church, which the household of God, which is a church of the living

God. He specifically is saying this is how to behave in the church. He's being very specific. He says an elder must be an hermios gunaikos, a husband of one wife.

Now, let me ask you. OK. OK. Yeah, an elder must be an presbutoros and also episkopos, the bishop.

OK, so both must be a husband of one wife. Now, let me ask you, can a woman fill that position?

No, a woman can't be a husband of one wife. No. OK, so if the requirement for eldership is a husband of one wife, a husband of one wife, then a woman can't fill that.

So she cannot be a pastor and elder. That's just one of the arguments that I present to people. All right.

So when it comes to communities,

I mean, when you when someone begins a church, everyone is not necessarily believers. I mean, in our churches, we have a lot of people who aren't believers necessarily yet.

I mean, we want to convert them to believers. So the argument that this is the woman,

I'm sorry, the man leadership is for I'm a little confused about that.

You said that the church, the male leadership is for believers. So, I mean, you know, the wickedness exists that ancient

Israel did back then as it does now. So I don't know. You're trying to justify women pastors and elders, aren't you?

Right. I'm trying to get biblical understanding of how

God can raise up a judge over all the people, men and female. And the

New Testament, your interpretation is now a female cannot be over a group of people leading them to God, correcting, reproving all of that.

I'm trying to understand that. I don't know if it's right or wrong. But I didn't say that. See, this happens a great deal when

I talk to people about things like this, they don't understand or they misrepresent what I'm saying because they're not hearing it.

They're not listening. And I'm not trying to be rude. I'm saying it because they're going to filter on when they listen.

They hear they hear certain things, certain ways. I did not say a woman couldn't correct a man, did not say a woman couldn't teach a man.

I didn't say a woman can't give instruction to a man, even in a church. I said a woman cannot be with you, right?

Hold on. I said a woman can't be a pastor and elder. They can't do that.

They cannot be in those positions because the Bible tells us Paul is giving instruction on how to behave in the church.

First, Timothy 315. He says the elder is to be a husband of one wife.

A woman cannot fit that, cannot. Furthermore, he says in 1

Timothy 2, 12 and 13, he says, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise the authority of a man, but remain quiet.

For it was Adam who was first created and then Eve. It is not a cultural issue.

He ties it into the created order of God himself. It's what

Paul the Apostle does. That's in 1 Timothy 2. The next chapter, he says,

I'm giving instruction on how to behave in the church. So let me ask you, can women in the church, can they be pastors and elders, according to what

Paul the Apostle is teaching? Well, I guess I'm confused about what a pastor and an elder does then, because if they reprove and they teach, and you said a woman can reprove and teach, then

I'm lost. I'm completely confused. No, no, don't. Okay, let me do it this way. Let's go to Titus chapter 1, all right?

For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order what remains and appoint elders. In the Greek, the word elders is in the masculine form.

In Greek, we can have feminine, masculine, and neuter. This is in the masculine. Appoint elders in every city as I directed you.

If there's any man who's above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.

For the overseer, that's the word bishop, must be above reproach as God's steward, not self -willed, not quick -tempered, not this, all these things.

He must hold fast to the word of God and able both to exhort in sound doctrine and refute those who contradict.

The bishop slash elder slash pastor must be able to teach sound doctrine and refute those who contradict and they are to be men above reproach, husband of one wife.

Paul wrote this and he also wrote that this is the reason is because Adam was first created.

It's not a cultural thing. This is theology. Okay? Now, you go to 1

Timothy 5 .17. The elders, that's another word in Greek, which is the masculine plural.

Masculine plural in the Greek. The elders. Now, if he wanted to include everybody, he'd use the neutral form, but he didn't.

We don't have this like this in English, but I speak Spanish enough and I can tell you in Spanish it's similar.

You have masculine, feminine, neuter. But the elders in Greek here is masculine. Plural who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.

So the elders do some of the duties is preaching and teaching and from Titus in the masculine

Greek form. Yes, it is. Absolutely. This is a part of the support for a non -female leadership.

A part of the argument. I'm sorry. We don't have much time. So I wanted to.

It's okay. We have four minutes. But here's another thing. In my research that I've done, not only

I could teach far deeper on this. I could start with the doctrine of the Trinity, go into the ontological economic

Trinity, go into the created order and hierarchical structure. Then I can relate to male and female in marriage out of the doctrine of the

Trinity and what's called primogeniture. From there I can go into the issue of Paul tying it to the created order and get into it from theological perspective why men are the ones because of federal headship and male stuff.

Most people don't know any of this stuff from Scripture. They don't know. They're ignorant. So they have women pastors and elders.

And so the other thing too is that I know you talk a lot about context and culture.

And so sometimes we're using context and then sometimes we're using general, you know, kind of a general broader.

So, so why? So how can, so if we're picking and choosing, oh, we're going to use context here, but we're going to go general elsewhere.

Then I think that's problematic and inconsistent because we can look at, we can look at first Timothy 2, 11 through 12.

And this, I'm sure, you know, this argument has been made in terms of the, the, the, the kinds of women that were in that culture and using that as a context for an understanding of that entire passage.

It doesn't work. Um, and I only, and I only bring that up because, and, and I think this is comfortable for white

Hold on, hold on, hold on. We're almost out of time. Let me just finish one thing. Cause I'm just relating it to this because I'll tell you in the

African American community and Latino community, where a lot of our men are being locked up and don't, we don't have male leadership.

Um, to, if we use this, then I'll come out there and teach the men how to be pastors and elders.

I'll fly out and raise up men and have them do it. Not the females. If this is the argument, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

Okay. I have to mute her because she won't listen. Now, this is an example of something she's not listening.

She's not willing to learn and she's giving excuses for people violating the word of God.

This is not the sound teacher that needs to be in a place in a pulpit. Okay.

So I was going to ask her, is it okay for women to be pastors and elders? According to what I read her out of the scriptures, what she's doing then is not giving me a chance, even on my own show to get in and comment.

She just wants to start teaching. And just start going without any retort, without any dialogue on this.

I'm not going to have that. So I was going to tell her 80 % of the churches and denominations that adopt women pastors and elders within two generations started adopting pro -homosexuality issues.

Now, I'm going to offer this out again. Okay, we only have a minute left in the show. I'm going to offer this out. We don't have time for everybody else.

We don't have time to get in. I will come out to your church. I will debate this topic.

Does the Bible support women pastors and elders? Does the Bible? Not church history, not experience, not some message.

Does the Bible, the scripture, does it support it? I will fly out to your church at my own expense to debate the issue.

It has to be filmed, recorded, have a moderator. And we both get to do what you want with it without obstructing the, without editing things and make things look like it was bad.

Make it seem it doesn't say. I've been offering this for 20 years on radio. Not a single church, not a single person has taken me up on it.

And I wonder, I want to know why. I think it's because they know I'll go straight to the word of God and they can't argue against the word of God, but they can make up excuses.

And I'm going to tell you folks, Paul gave the instruction to the church, 1 Timothy 3 .15.

That's what he was specifically doing. And elders are to be husbands of one wife, males. That's what it says, supposed to be men.

And I'd get into the theology a lot deeper than what we had here. Too bad she wouldn't take, be polite enough, let me even interact with her towards the end there.

Sorry, Christian from Washington, you waited a long time. Sorry, Tom from North Carolina, you waited even longer. And well, we'll be back tomorrow by God's grace.

So we'll talk to you then. Have a good one, everybody. Another program powered by the