July 31, 2009 Show: Harold Camping Reviews His Debate with James White

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Long Island, New York, Connecticut, and those listening internationally over the internet. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday.

Today is day number two of listener calls. We are receiving calls from you, the listeners, regarding the recent debate between Harold Camping and Dr.

James R. White on the theme, Has the Church Age Ended? Harold Camping, founder and president of Family Radio, just recently debated

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. Actually, it was just this past Tuesday and Wednesday.

They had a debate on that subject, Has the Church Age Ended? Yesterday, we took live phone calls from Dr.

James R. White alone, and today, we will take live phone calls for Mr.

Harold Camping alone. And we are delighted and honored that Mr. Camping has graciously accepted our invitation to be on today's programs, today's program to seek to answer your questions.

The number that you should call to ask a question of Mr. Harold Camping is 877 -753 -3341.

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Camping or disagree, you are free to call in. We will not tolerate any insults or arguing.

Do not speak over Mr. Camping. We want you to ask a brief question and then listen to your answer over the internet or the radio.

877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341.

We'll be right back with Mr. Harold Camping of Family Radio and your phone calls after these messages, so don't go away.

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The spirit of New York, WNYG. Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, today is the day we are taking listener phone calls for Mr.

Harold Camping of Family Radio. For those of you who missed the two -day debate that took place on Tuesday and Wednesday of this week between Dr.

James R. White and Harold Camping on the theme, Has the Church Age Ended?,

we urge you to listen to those two days of debate on MP3, which is available at the

AOMIN .org website, www .aomin

.org, or at the Iron Sharpens Iron website, sharpens .org, s -h -a -r -p -e -n -s dot o -r -g.

And also yesterday we took live phone calls from our listeners for Dr. James R.

White and today we are giving Mr. Camping the final word and taking phone calls for him at 877 -753 -3341, 877 -753 -3341.

And we do once again want to thank BatteryDepot .com, the law firm of Buttafuoco &

Associates, and the publishers of the New American Standard Bible Update for making this debate possible.

Well, first of all, let me welcome you to the program again, Mr. Harold Camping. Hello, Mr.

Camping. Yes, I am here again.

Yeah, it's great to have you back on the program. And why don't you give our listeners a brief assessment of the debate or...

Can you hear me now, Mr. Camping? I can hear you. Well, until we get this resolved, perhaps,

Mr. Camping, you can let me know when you do hear me. Our phone number is 877 -753 -3341, 877 -753 -3341.

I can hear you. We're going to have to work out these bugs. I'm not sure why this is happening, but you can feel free to call in whether you agree with Mr.

Camping, whether you disagree with him, but please keep your questions brief. We do not want preachers or lecturers.

This is Rich in Phoenix, and we're having a situation here where we're getting mixed minus through Harold's line, and I just want to let his engineer know, if he could, to please check into that, because we are getting a full mix from him.

It's actually looping down. I can see my indicator showing it, and if they can clear up that mixed minus situation, we'll get that nice, clean connection that we had the other day.

Oh, so this is actually coming from the family radio studio? I believe it is, yes. Okay.

We'll give it another shot here, okay? We're going to bring him back on the line. All right, great. And by the way, while we're working this out, just briefly want to announce that on Saturday, September 19th, there's going to be a one -man play starring

Roger Nelson, who is a professional Christian actor, winner of the International Christian Visual Media's Crown Award for Best Actor.

He is going to be starring in a one -man play on the life and ministry of John Wesley called

The Man from Aldersgate. This is going to be held at Freedom Chapel International Worship Center on Broadway.

That's Route 110 in Amityville, Long Island. Tickets are $20 apiece and $15 apiece for groups of 20 or more.

This is a fundraiser for the Timothy Hill Children's Ranch, a home for abused and abandoned children in Riverhead, Long Island.

Long Island Teen Challenge, which is a ministry for teenagers and young adults who are drug and alcohol abusers, and Long Island Citizens for Community Values, which is a very important organization trying to keep pornographic stores and strip clubs and things like that out of residential areas and away from schools and so forth.

But those three charities are going to receive the benefit from all of the profits. I believe we've cleared the problem up.

Okay, great. I just want to give you the phone number real quick. For information on this one -man play on the life and ministry of John Wesley, call 631 -789 -5050, 631 -789 -5050, or 631 -321 -7070, 631 -321 -7070.

Mr. Camping, can you hear me now? I do. That's great. And once again, our phone number is 877 -753 -3341 for our listeners to call.

Mr. Camping, if you could give us a brief overview of this debate that we've been having on the end of the church age.

Well, you know, I am very, very grateful that I had the opportunity to share the gospel.

I did not really look upon this as a debate so much as an opportunity to discuss with others what the

Bible is really teaching. I found, however, that the only way

I could really answer all of the charges and insinuations and what have you that implied that maybe

I'm a rabid heretic of some kind was by something that God has given.

And I'll tell you, I have been working for more than 50 years very, very diligently studying the

Bible, trying to be as faithful as possible to the rules of how to understand the

Bible, and checking Scripture against Scripture constantly, recognizing that the whole

Bible, every word in it in the original language, was right from the of God.

And therefore, every part of the Bible could be compared with it, and we could learn from any other part of the

Bible. Therefore, definitely the Bible was its own interpreter, it was its own dictionary.

But, you know, it's only when you find harmony as you go along that you begin to sense that you have truth.

But when you are dealing with a date, a date that goes out right to the end of time, you don't really have anything really solid to know whether you really have truth.

But then, a few months ago, by God's mercy, I looked again at 2

Peter 3, verse 8, where God said that, where God said,

I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this one thing, a day is a thousand years, and a thousand years is a day.

And when I put that into the hopper so far as all that I had developed or understood from the

Bible that the Holy Spirit gave to me in His graciousness, in His mercy, namely that the flood was 4990

BC, and the date of the end of the world, the rapture, was

May 21, 2011. And that passage in 2

Peter 3, verse 8, was pointing to the fact that there are 7 ,000 years between the flood and the end.

And lo and behold, that fits precisely with the date that I had come up with.

And so it was a tremendous, an incredible, encouragement to me that my homework had been done accurately.

And then on top of it, to discover that the date of, the biblical date of the flood, was the 17th day of the second month.

And of course, that biblical date, God changed the calendar slightly at the time that Israel came out of Egypt, and the new calendar put

May 21, the very date that we had arrived at, as also the 17th day of the second month.

I was just absolutely, incredibly amazed. Yes, here is proof that all the homework that had been done, been doing,

God had guided it. And then on top of it, when I found that a long time ago,

I and others had carefully, carefully, carefully, worked out the date, according to our calendar, when

Christ was crucified, at which time he was demonstrating the atonement, calling our full attention to the suffering that he made in paying for our sins, and that was

April 1. And then found that April 1, 33 A .D.,

was, we could count the exact number of days to May 21, and I found that that number also was an incredible number, because it consisted of three numbers when it's broken down into its significant numbers.

Five, that the Bible shows again and again has spiritual value as representing the atonement.

Ten, which the Bible shows as spiritual value, indicating the completeness of whatever is due.

Seventeen, which has spiritual value, is spiritually pointing to heaven, to heaven.

And then found that the exact number of days from April 1, 33

A .D., to May 21, 2011, was five times ten, times seventeen, times five, times ten, times seventeen.

Wow! What an incredible piece of information! What an incredible piece of information!

And that assurance that I was very absolutely convinced that I had been faithful in what

I am learning from the Bible. Before we go to our course, I just wanted to ask you two questions for clarification.

Do you believe that those who are still within the church, even those that are faithful to the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, the teachings that Family Radio had at one time for many years taught, do you believe that those within the church, when

Christ returns, are going to be damned for eternity? The problem is,

I don't know what is, who is saved or not saved. That's God's business entirely.

I can't say this one is saved and that is not one, that one is not saved, because I can't look in the heart of any individual.

But we do read in 1 John, for example, where God says, the character or the proof that I know

Him is that I keep His commandments, and the commandments are the whole

Bible. The Bible does warn that if you are trusting in anything at all that you have done to contribute to your salvation, then you're not a child of God.

The Bible insists on that very, very clearly. And therefore, those in the churches, if they are not obeying the commandments strictly as God has given them, well then, it doesn't look very happy for them.

But that is something that is between them and God. I know

I would not want to be there, absolutely not, because the Bible also teaches very clearly that Satan is ruling there, and that God is not bringing salvation anymore there.

They are, the church, you know the house, the judgment begins with the house of God, and the house of God for 1 ,955 years has been the churches, and now they are under judgment.

So I believe it is a most, most, most dangerous place to be.

Now, what happens when people who you believe are true and faithful Christians, what do they do when they gather now that the church, in your opinion, is not in existence?

Obviously, there are no ordinances. How do you conduct discipline and so on? Well, the fact is that we in Family Radio don't encourage anybody to gather together.

We have a little fellowship in Alameda, California, because as I teach there, we can use those messages again on the

Family Radio. They are a great assistance to develop our programming for Family Radio.

But if someone calls me, can you give me the name of a place where we can fellowship?

I say, I'm sorry, we do not encourage that at all.

It's between God and that individual. Just as we read in Hebrews chapter 8 that it is

God who will work directly. He's not working through any organization today, like a church or like the nation of Israel, as He did in the past.

Well, let's go to our phone calls. Rich, who's waiting online? Chris, our first caller is Francis in New York.

Francis, welcome to Iron Trip and Zion. Thank you. Hello, Mr. Camping.

I appreciate your many years of Bible study, and I have a fairly simple biblical question that I think has a bearing on this topic.

My question is this. Who is, according to Scripture, who is Moses' father?

And the reason I ask is that Scripture tells us in four verses the particular name of a particular person,

Amram. Who is the father of Moses? Well, actually, when we go,

I haven't looked at that for some time, but when we harmonize, see, here is the problem.

You have to harmonize all Scripture, and God wrote the Bible, so it's very complicated, and if you're not careful, you can get a wrong answer.

But the fact is, when we read about Amram and we find that he is one of three people who lived during the 430 years of Israel being in Egypt, and while it sounds like Amram and Jacob were the father and mother, actually, the father and mother of Jesus, of Moses, are not named at all.

He was a descendant of Amram. He was in the line of Amram, but it takes a lot of careful analysis of the verses there to really understand this.

Thank you. Thank you, Francis, and who's our next caller, Rich? All right, we're not quite ready.

You've got to screen another one. Okay, just out of curiosity, Mr. Camping, since you believe that Christ is coming, returning in 2011, coming up very quickly, and the

Scriptures clearly teach that those who are in heaven rejoicing and worshiping Christ are from out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, do you believe that every single tribe and tongue is going to know, or at least have heard,

I should say, the Gospel prior to Christ's return within the next two years?

Because I know missionaries who know that there are un -evangelized tribes that are still in existence.

Well, you know, how much do we have to know? When the Ninevites, in the book of Jonah, when they heard

Jonah, they heard very little of the Bible. They heard the message that in 40 days

God is going to destroy you. Jonah may have told them about his experience, about being cast into the sea, but they heard nothing about Christ.

They heard nothing about a whole lot of things the Bible teaches, and yet the evidence of the

Bible is that they became saved. God does the saving. God does the saving.

Fundamentally, it all begins with an attitude, am I ready to trust the

Bible? And when the Bible tells me to cry out for mercy, that maybe then you might become saved.

I'm not going to dictate to God and say, okay, I'm crying out for mercy. Now, is this going to get me saved?

Of course it won't. Nothing that we can do can get us saved.

Now, this message now as it goes out into the world, you know, it's one very, very kind of a scary thing for the churches is

God insists again and again that the first shall be last, and the last shall be first.

And in our nation, and in Europe particularly, is where the gospel has been for a long, long time, and yet there are many nations where they, and many people, or two -thirds of the people of the world today, have never heard anything from the

Bible. And yet, if God has elected them, you know full well that they will break down crying out for mercy, knowing very little of the

Bible, and yet, and from them God will save those that he plans to save.

The last shall be first. That is, those who are hearing it, the last are going to be very dominant, whereas the first shall be last.

And that's scary, because the first are those who are in the churches who think they really know a lot from the

Bible. But do you believe that those as you said, who are the elect, who will bow down and cry for mercy, will they specifically, as most

Christians believe, have to cry out to Christ Jesus for mercy and trust in his atonement?

Or do you have a view that people can be saved by Christ without specifically knowing him?

Well, yes, they can be saved without specifically knowing him. After all,

Abel, who was the first one that we know was saved, he didn't know anything about the Lord Jesus Christ.

When the 7 ,000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal, they didn't know anything about the

Lord Jesus Christ. The best they had was the Ten Commandments, and that doesn't speak directly about the

Lord Jesus. The Ninevites, as I've already indicated, they didn't know anything about the

Lord Jesus, and yet these are illustrations of people who we know absolutely did become saved.

Because you see, the work of salvation is God's work entirely. He is the one who elected a person and paid for his sins, and then at an appropriate time gives him a brand new resurrected soul, which is the time that we know we've experienced salvation, and that produces an intense desire to do the will of God, and yet our salvation, our redemption is not complete until we get to the last day, the first day of the

Day of Judgment, which is the Day of the Rapture, when we receive our resurrected body, and all the action, all the action is

God's action. None of it is our action, but you know,

I know that it's a very unwise thing to look at the

Bible casually or incidentally, or mock the Bible in any way, or because we should tremble before the

Word of God. It's really something, you know, when we read in John 1 that Christ, that the

Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and it's talking about the Lord Jesus Christ, and He, therefore, is totally identified with the

Word of God, and whatever we hear from the Word, we should tremble before, and in a sense, we're trembling before Christ, because Christ is completely identified with the

Word of God. The Word became flesh, so whether it's Abel, or the Ninevites, or the 7 ,000 that bowed the knee to Baal, or someone today who is simply hearing that God is warning, that Judgment day is about here, and of course,

God has created man with a sense of God.

His Law is written to some degree on our hearts, we learn from the Book of Romans, and mankind intuitively knows he's a sinner, and he also knows that someday there's going to be an end of the world, a

Judgment of some kind, and when they hear these things, if God is working in their heart, it's going to create a real reaction, but every individual stands alone before God, and I can't tell you how someone else is going to react.

Well, so in other words, you're saying you make no distinction between believers in the

Old Covenant, and those in the New, and the Old Covenant, even though Christ, as Christians, have always believed that Christ has always existed, and eternity passed, and so on, but he was not in the flesh on earth until, obviously, the the

New Covenant, and he was not known by the name of Jesus Christ until then, so even today, you would say that somebody could be ignorant of Christ and still be saved.

Well, when we talk about the Old and New Covenant, first of all, the Bible is one word.

It is one, it is the Word of God. It's never had another word added to it since God wrote

Revelation 22, verse 18. It's never had a word taken away from it. It is the

Word of God, but we must remember that God is the one who applies the

Word to our hearts, and he can apply that Word in different ways to different individuals, but when

God says in Romans 10, verse 17, for example, that faith cometh by hearing, that faith is really a synonym for Christ himself.

Christ cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, it doesn't mean we have to hear a whole lot of the

Word of God. We've already given these examples of Nineveh, and of Abel, and of the 7 ,000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal, or the 3 ,000 that were saved at Pentecost.

They heard a sermon, but my, that one sermon, instantly they're saved.

They could not have understood or thought through everything that was told them in that sermon, but God saves at the point that he wants.

The whole business is God's business. Everything is under the control of God, and we have the privilege as human beings to be able to cry out to God for mercy.

Oh Lord, could it be that somehow I might too become thy child?

Because the Bible does talk about an inheritance, and a new heaven, and a new earth that is absolutely fabulous, but that's totally in God's care, or totally in God's care.

All right, we have to get a break right now, and when we return, we will take our listener phone calls. Our number is 877 -753 -3341.

That's toll -free, 877 -753 -3341. Whether you agree with Mr.

Camping or disagree, we welcome your phone calls, but please, we do not want sermons or lectures. We want brief questions, and no arguing or mockery will be tolerated.

877 -753 -3341 is the number, and we'll be right back. The New American Standard Bible has been widely embraced as the most literally accurate

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The Spirit of New York, WNYG. Welcome back. This is our day for a listener phone calls for Harold Camping of Family Radio.

And Rich, who is our second call? Chris, we've got James in New York. James, welcome to Iron Sherpa's Iron.

Hello. Yes. Hello. Yes, hello. Mr. Camping.

Mr. Camping, do you hear our caller? I do not hear him. Can he read

Jeremiah 25 verse 10? Did you hear that, Mr. Camping? Jeremiah 25 verse 10, can you read that?

Let's look at that. Jeremiah 25 verse 10.

And our caller, I imagine, is wondering what that is to be understood.

Jeremiah. You know, Jeremiah 25 is one of the best chapters in the

Bible that talk about the fact that there is a judgment day coming.

And in verse 10, it says, Moreover, I will take from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the candle.

And the whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment. And these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

That's a picture. Incidentally, that seventy years is the picture of the great tribulation, which has been going on now in our day for the past 21 years and will be finished at the first day of the day of judgment after 23 years.

But at that time, there will be no more salvation on this earth, no more mercy, no more possibility of salvation.

It'll only be judgment for the next five months, which the Bible shows is the duration of the day of judgment.

But it's clearly indicating a judgment day is coming. The chapter, for example, you read in verse 26,

And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth, and the king of Sheshach, that's

Satan, that's a figure of Satan, shall drink after them. Therefore, thou shalt say unto them,

Thus saith Jehovah host, the God of Israel, Drink, drink up, and be drunken, and vomit, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which

I will send among you. And so on and so on.

This chapter really is one of the direct chapters that is emphasizing that judgment day will come.

And we're living at that time now, when we're just a little more than 21 months away from that.

So it is critical. It is so wonderful, so marvelous, so loving, so merciful, that God is giving us a warning almost two years before it happens, so that anybody who is really recognizing the authority of the

Bible, and is trembling before the Bible, and seeing his sins, like the publican of Luke 18,

Oh God, have mercy on me, I'm a sinner. And he can cry out to God, Maybe, maybe, like the

Ninevites, maybe I too might become a child of God before it's too late.

And we are humbled. In fact, one of the characteristics of the true believer that God insists on, is that he gives grace to the humble.

He has mercy on the humble, and he resists the proud. And by nature, all of us are proud.

And to be completely broken before God, we cry out and cry,

Oh God, I know I have been trusting myself, but I can't.

Is it possible that I too might become saved? Thank you for your call James. Who's our next call

Rich? First we've got Art in Sacramento, California. Welcome to Iron Sherpins Iron Art.

Thank you. Yes, I have one quick comment, and one question real quick.

The comment is, yesterday I went online and I looked at the Jewish calendars, and certainly, sure enough,

May 21st, 2011, is the 17th day of the second month, just as Noah went into the ark on the 17th day of the second month.

People out there, check it out for yourselves. This is true. And my question is,

Mr. Camping, on where 2 Peter 1 20 says, knowing this verse, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation, that is of the same sentence as verse 19, the it's all one sentence.

And Mr. White said that no prophecy is of a private interpretation.

He was saying that... Hello? Yeah, we can still hear you.

Okay. He said that it's not subject to the prophet's own interpretation, as I understand it.

I think he was referring that to verse 21, but that can't be, because it's the same sentence as verse 19, and it's talking about the prophecy that we already have.

So it is the interpretation of the word of God that we already have, and not what

God is adding to the Bible through new prophecy.

Is this correct, and could you give us a more clear understanding of that? Thank you. Thank you,

Art, if you could listen over the internet, that'd be great. Yeah, well, the fact is that we have to listen to the whole

Bible. And you know, it was a tremendous piece of information to learn from Daniel chapter 12, that God still has information that he had not opened the eyes of people yet.

Like, for example, in Acts chapter 1, he says, it's not to the church age, it's not for you to know times or seasons.

And yet, when we get to 1 Thessalonians 4, we finally have learned, yeah, but there is a time when we will know time.

We knew, we learned that from Ecclesiastes chapter 8, where God says the true, true believer will know time and judgment.

And so we have to listen to the whole Bible. And just because we think we've learned something, that doesn't mean that that cannot be adjusted.

That we learn more from the Bible. My, my, the Bible is the living word of God.

And, and we don't dictate to God at all. It's not subject to our ideas.

It's only subject to what the Bible will allow. And in our day,

God is revealing an enormous amount of information that has not, that was not known 20 years ago.

I'm just astounded at what he is revealing. And then he gives us the fantastic proof, like the, the number of days from April 1 of 33

AD to May 21, 2011. What a, what a tremendous encouragement that indeed we have come to truth and that we know absolutely that this is going, that this is going to happen.

Thank you very much. And who's our next caller, Rich? Chris, we've got Donna driving from Alabama to Florida.

Wow. Should you be on the phone while you're driving? Welcome. Welcome to Iron Shepherd's Iron, Donna.

Thank you. Um, Mr. Camping, the Lord, right now it's raining very heavy in case you're hearing that.

Mr. Camping, the Lord led through his word. He saved me back in 1982.

And through his word, he convicted me to leave the Catholic church. And he convicted me that, that he could teach me through his

Holy Spirit in his word. And by his electing sovereign grace, he opened my eyes to see

God's work of salvation in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ on my behalf.

Shortly afterwards, the Lord led me to tune into family radio. And I learned from you how to use a concordance and be able to compare scriptures with scriptures.

I heartily thank you for that. Back in those days, you were being careful with using words in their context.

You stress that everything must come from the Bible. I have listened to you the two days of debate and several things leap out at me.

Your closing admonition to us was, I hope that people will remember that there are 365 .2422

days and do their own arithmetic, multiplying 1 ,978 and what do they get and breaking that down.

And then you'll find that it all ties in perfectly with the Bible. Well, first of all, what

I noticed was that 365 .2422 is not found in the Bible and 1 ,978 is not found in the

Bible either. Then you want us to further factor this. Yes, the Lord has numbers in the

Bible. And yes, in certain places he factors them, but he does the work. And then he opens our eyes to see certain patterns, such as either judgment or mercy for the number five, depending on the context.

But here in the calendar is the work of our hands first originating with you, Mr. Camping. You keep stressing, check out our work.

The Bible is crystal clear that we are not to be depending on the works of our own hands, or we are under God's wrath.

We're to depend solely on the work of Christ and what he has, what he has written. Mathematical computations are not comparing spiritual with spiritual.

It is a fleshly talent, not spiritual discernment. That ability is not given to all, especially the mentally limited.

However, the mentally limited are not spiritually limited if they are one of God's elect and they will see and hear the work of Jesus Christ as the word is read or heard by them.

Jesus Christ is referring to his redemptive work. Donna, we need to have a question here, please.

Yes, yes, I do. But I have to just state these. Donna, Mr. Camping is trying to respond to you.

Let me respond to you. Now, you know, for example, when we talk about the 365 .2422

days, that identifies with the Bible. God did not give us that number any more than he gave us.

The number 1 ,955 years is the duration of the church age, or 722 ,500 is the number of days from April 1 of 33

AD to May 21 of 2011. But God has given us the rules by which we can follow.

Now, for example, in Genesis 1, we read there that God created the sun and the moon.

He says in verse 14, let there be light in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be for light in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.

And it was so. Well, OK, God doesn't say there were 24 hours in a day, and yet we know that is true.

He did not write in the Bible 364 .2422 days, but he has alluded to it definitely that God established the celestial clock, that huge celestial clock.

And now, as we measure that, or let me put it in another way, the

Bible talks about corn or wheat. The Bible doesn't say that this gives us all the details of how nourishing it might be.

We have learned how nourishing it is, but we take the words from the

Bible, and then we can certainly follow through in what we know for certain.

And like the 34 .24, 365 .2422, that is absolutely.

Check that in any, any astronomical journal.

But thank you for calling. Thank you, Donna. And Rich, who's our next call? Our next caller is

Jill in Los Angeles, California. Jill, welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron. Thank you.

Yes, if you could please be brief this time. The question for Mr. Camping is, can he please look at Isaiah 29, verses 13 to 16?

And while he's looking that up, what's your question? While he's looking that up, what's your question?

We lost your question. Oh, we did. Okay. Isaiah 29, verse 13.

We read Isaiah 29, verse 13.

Wherefore, Jehovah said, forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth and with their lips to honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precepts of man, therefore, behold,

I will proceed to do a marvelous work among his people, a marvelous work and a wonder.

For the wisdom of their wise shall perish, and the understanding of their prudence shall be hid.

Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from Jehovah, and their works are in the dark.

And they say, who seeth us, and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay.

For shall the work say to him that made it, he made me not? Or shall the thing frame say of him that framed it, he hath no understanding?

Now, we can't possibly get into all the detail of this, but God is faulting mankind who are putting their own knowledge ahead of God's knowledge.

And that is, they are interpreting the Bible by their own ideas rather than listening to letting the

Bible, the Bible do the interpretation. But shall we take our next call,

Ray? Yes, who's the next caller, Rich? And we've got Tony on Long Island, Chris. Tony, welcome to Orange Harp and Zion.

Thank you, Mr. Ormson. Mr. Camping, I have a question for you, referring from Matthew 24, if I'm sure you have read it.

Just one statement that Jesus himself makes after talking about the end. He says, but on that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my father only.

How do you, how do you justify that Jesus himself said that? And how could you actually say that, you know, that you have, you know, a day in time?

And I'll take that off. Yeah, thank you. Great question, Tony. Well, that question is in agreement.

I mean, that those verses are in agreement with what God says in Acts 1. The early church, beginning with the apostles, were really curious about the end.

And Christ said to them in in Acts chapter 1, it is not for you to know times or seasons which are under the father's power, but you get busy and bring,

I'm paraphrasing now, get busy and bring the gospel to the world. That is your task.

And God, throughout the church age, absolutely did not want the churches to or anybody, any theologians to be curious about when it was all going to end.

They had a task to get the gospel out there. And that's why throughout the past history, when various individuals have said, we know the time, they've always been wrong.

They've always been wrong because God was not giving it to them. But God did say in Ecclesiastes chapter 8, verse 5, he spoke of a time and in fact, throughout the church age, nobody knew exactly the time of the creation of the world or the date of or the year of the flood or the year when

Abraham came into the land of Canaan. All kinds of things were hidden from mankind.

God did not open up the scriptures to them. But remember in Daniel 12,

God makes reference to giving Daniel a lot of information about the end of time.

And he told Daniel, write it in a book, that's the Bible, and seal it.

It is for the time of the end. Then we go to Revelation 5 and we find there is a book that is now going to be opened.

It's sealed with seven seals and Christ was given that book and he had the authority to open it.

And it was actually opened, the seventh seal, we learned from Revelation 8, verse 1, was taken off on the first day of the great tribulation, which we know from all the knowledge

God now has given us at the time of the end. And as much as that book has been opened was in the year 1988.

And so during these last 20 years we've learned all kinds of things. And one of the things is we've learned with great precision

God's timeline. It had been hidden from the church age. But once the church age was finished and we're in the time of great tribulation, now

God has opened that information and he speaks about this in 1

Thessalonians chapter 5, where he says Christ is going to come as a thief in the night.

That is, those who are spiritually unready or thinking that they don't know the time, he is going to come like a thief to them and they will not be ready.

They will, sudden destruction will come upon them. They will enter into the day of judgment.

Then he goes on and says, but ye are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you.

You are watching. And because we're living in that day when the book has been opened,

God is opening our eyes to many, many truths that have not been known by any theologians, however brilliant they may have been, or God -fearing they may have been, or diligent they may have been, they could not know.

But we happen to be here, not because we're smarter or anything, but because we happen to live in this time as we search the

Bible very, very carefully. We've learned all kinds of things about God's timeline of opening our gospels through the world, all kinds of things about God's judgment plan, many, many things.

It's only because we're living in that day. And that's why we know for sure the time.

And then God gives us these magnificent proofs that show that we have done our homework accurately.

We have understood what God is teaching us. All of that has come from the

Bible. And now the question is, are we going to humble ourselves and cry to God for mercy, or in our arrogance, in our pride, or saying, well,

I don't buy it. I don't buy it. Like we know more than God. This is a time when everyone who claims to be a child of God, or claims who is concerned about the end, better, better be examining himself.

Just how humbly am I walking? Or am I still in my pride?

Can I trust when my church, for example, has put their trust in their confession, in their creed, and they know nothing about what

God has been teaching us now because that book has been opened, that was hidden, that was closed in the days of Daniel.

And yet it's always been in the Bible. But Christ spoke in parables, so that in his own time he would open our eyes.

He spoke in very complicated language, so that only in time would he open our eyes whenever he wanted to do it.

And now that is the time. But if we're not going to very humbly say, well, then

I better start searching the Bible. A whole lot more diligently than I've ever done before.

It means that we're trusting our church, or trusting our pastor, or trusting our confession.

And that is like having another God. Mr. Camping, we're running out of time rapidly. Before we go to our next caller,

I just wanted to ask a brief question of my own from 1 Corinthians 11, verse 26.

We read, we read, for as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the

Lord's death until he comes. Now, obviously, since the church, in your opinion, doesn't exist now, how do

Christians do that until he comes when he hasn't come yet? Well, it's really, you know, the

Lord's table was a ceremonial law pointing in two directions.

It was a broken bread and a poured out wine was pointing to the cross when he broke his body and shed his blood.

And until he comes, it's pointing to the marriage feast of the bride and the lamb.

Remember, the true believers are the bride. And we read in Revelation that there will be the marriage feast.

It's symbolical, of course, indicating the intimacy that God has between a believer and Christ.

But the Lord's Supper was a ceremonial law that was pointing us in two directions, both back to the cross and also until I come, that is to the end, when your salvation will be completed.

Because our salvation is not completed till we receive our resurrected body on the last day.

Let's take one more caller. Rich, who's the next one on line? The next caller is James in New York.

Hello, Mr. Kampen. Yes, James. Yes, I called earlier about Jeremiah 25.

In light of Revelation 18, where it repeats basically the same verse, and the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee, and the voice of the bride and the voice of the bridegroom shall be heard no more in thee at all.

You used to teach the whole book, The End of the Church Age and After, which is based on these two verses, and now you're applying it to the end of the world.

What gives? Thanks, James. And your answer, finally, Mr. Kampen? What was the question

I taught? You used to teach... Well, you know, I used to teach many things that I have had to be corrected about.

First of all, I grew up in a church, being a careful follower of the

Heidelberg Catechism and the Canons of Dort. I used to believe with all my heart in the five points of Calvinism, total depravity, and so on.

And because I trusted my teachers, I trusted my pastors, that they really were giving the truth.

But as I studied and studied and studied the Bible, and as God opened my eyes by his mercy,

I learned that some of the things I had been taught were not as biblical as they really should be.

And of course, I've been doing the

Open Forum for like 48 years, and I was teaching what I believed to be truth, but as I learned where I had been mistaught,

I had to make correction. And so from time to time, and especially now since the book that has been sealed in the days of Daniel has been opened,

I have had to say repeatedly, you know, I have been incorrect. I have been incorrect in what

I taught. Let me make correction. Because you see, all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for teaching, but also for correction.

And the first one that better be corrected is the teacher, not the one that he's teaching, but the one who is doing the teaching.

He better very humbly recognize that he still can learn, and when he learns something that is different than what he originally had taught, he better be humble enough to confess, yes,

I was incorrect, and now I want to be more accurate in the Word of God.

Well, thank you very much, Mr. Camping, for graciously accepting our invitation to participate in the debate and on today's program.

And I want to thank all of our listeners today, especially those who called in, and I want to thank you for your politeness and so on.

And I want to thank everybody involved in this program, including the staff of WNYG Radio, Alpha and Omega Ministries, and Family Radio for making this last four days a success.

For those of you who missed the two -day debate, you can hear those two days on free downloadable

MP3 at www .aomin .org, a -o -m as in Michael, i -n as in Nancy, dot o -r -g, and you can also hear them on the

Iron Sharpens Iron website, sharpens .org, s -h -a -r -p -e -n -s dot o -r -g.

And we also will have the MP3s of yesterday's program and today, where we took calls from our listeners for Dr.